Paledancer - stealth wizard shadow manipulating ACTION

[Hamlin]

Hi guys, welcome to my thread. To start I'm going to lay out the basic ground work for this build and then maybe with your help, hammer out some details.

I was looking at epic destinies one night and couldn't help but notice that most of the DCs for shadow dancer abilities are INT based. Hmmm...there might be some synergy here with other classes besides rogue...like wizard! This is the basis for the build I am about to post below. The idea is a fully functional high DC/spell pen wizard with some melee ability. And screwing with the shadows of my enemies.

Class: Wizard 20 (Pale Master) / Shadowdancer 5
Race: Half-elf w/rogue dilettante
Past life: Favored Soul

Starting Stats (34 points):

STR 12
DEX 14
CON 15
INT 18 -All level ranks here
WIS 8
CHA 8

Feats:

Kinda stuck here. This character will have 14 feats available to him, and I've identified 18 feats that I'd like to have. I'm going to post that list and maybe you guys can help me knock off 4 of them, while still being able to do what I want to do. This guy will be a wizard first and won't do anything to gimp spellcasting ability.

Edit: Picked feats
1. Toughness
1W. Spell Focus: Necromancy
3. Spell Penetration
5W. Extend Spell
6. Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
9. Two Weapon Fighting
10W. Mental Toughness - for wraith form
12. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
15. Empower Spell
15W. Maximize Spell
18. Improved Critical: Piercing (or slashing?)
20W. Heighten Spell
21. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
24. Greater Spell Penetration

Feats I really wanted but had to leave out:

Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
Epic Spell Penetration
Insightful Reflexes
Augment Summon

Are 3 spell pen feats overkill? I do get +1 spell pen from FvS past life. Epic spell focus worth it? Can I live without wraith form? Augment summon sucks now, but when enhancement pass comes that skeletal knight looks pretty cool. It has other uses as well. I plan on having a decent dex and Shadowdancer 5 grants evasion. Can I live without Insightful Reflexes? Decisions, decisions...

Gear:

Gear-wise, I already have the war wizard's set and a planar focus of subterfuge with +3 insightful INT on it. INT for wizzy, and subterfuge set bonus if I get my Agony upgraded. Pretty good for this build I think. I also have several decent loot gen short sword/rapiers and scimitars. I'm still undecided on whether I'm going to take improved crit slash or pierce. Probably pierce if Agony is going to be my main weapon. I also have a Staff of the Necromancer for when I'm going full caster mode. I was thinking Shadowmail (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shadowmail) would be good for this guy, but it's medium armor and would kill evasion (I think).

Enhancements:

I'm torn on which spell enhancement line I want to specialize in. I think cold or electric fit the whole palemaster/shadow thing. Maybe Acid would be better.

Edit: Second run through of the character generator. Feat order reflects how it should look by level 25. My order would be different while leveling, then somewhere around level 20 I would use my free LR to change them as shown below.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Quibellius Paledancer TR1
Level 25 Chaotic Neutral Half-Elf Male
(20 Wizard \ 5 Epic)
Hit Points: 317
Spell Points: 1809
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 10
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 25)
Strength 12 15
Dexterity 14 18
Constitution 15 18
Intelligence 18 32
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 8 10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 25)
Balance 4 20
Bluff -1 16
Concentration 6 32
Hide 4 20
Jump 3 18
Move Silently 4 20
Repair 4 17
Search 4 16
Spot -1 16
Swim 1 9
Tumble 4 20

Level 1 (Wizard)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Wizard)


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 5 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy


Level 7 (Wizard)


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness


Level 11 (Wizard)


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Wizard)


Level 14 (Wizard)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 17 (Wizard)


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 19 (Wizard)


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell


Level 21 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 22 (Wizard)


Level 23 (Wizard)


Level 24 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 25 (Wizard)

[unbongwah]

4. Improved Critical: Piercing
You mention scimitars later, which are slashing weapons, not piercing.

6. Mental Toughness - for wraith form
Wraith should be swapped for lich when you hit lvl 18; that will let you swap MT for a different meta.

9. Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
12. Epic Spell Penetration
On a pure wiz, you won't hit BAB 11 until lvl 22; that means you can't take GTWF before lvl 24. Which means until the lvl cap is raised to 28, you have to pick 2 out of ESF/ESP/GTWF.

13. Extend Spell -I usually leave this off of casters, but I heard it's good for PMs. Can someone confirm?
Extend is useful for short-term spells like Death Aura and Haste; however it is not essential, IMHO.

18. Augment Summon
Summons (still) aren't worth it; but if you really want it, go grind out an eRoderic's Wand (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Roderic%27s_Wand) before TRing.

I don't see Quicken on your list; I consider that a must-have if you want to ensure your self-heals w/Neg Energy Burst, if nothing else.

Also: bear in mind halflings are supposed to get Assassin as a racial PrE; so imagine being able to add Assassinate to all your other abilities. :eek: But as with all things Turbine, I'll believe it when I see it... :rolleyes:

How exactly do you see yourself playing this char? In particular, when do you expect melee + SD abilities to be more useful than just spamming your spells?

[Arlathen]

Feats:
Kinda stuck here. This character will have 14 feats available to him, and I've identified 18 feats that I'd like to have. I'm going to post that list and maybe you guys can help me knock off 4 of them, while still being able to do what I want to do. This guy will be a wizard first and won't do anything to gimp spellcasting ability.

1. Two Weapon Fighting
2. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
3. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
4. Improved Critical: Piercing
5. Toughness
6. Mental Toughness - for wraith form
7. Spell Focus: Necromancy

8. Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
9. Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
10. Spell Penetration
11. Greater Spell Penetration
12. Epic Spell Penetration

13. Extend Spell -I usually leave this off of casters, but I heard it's good for PMs. Can someone confirm?
14. Empower Spell
15. Maximize Spell

16. Heighten Spell
17. Insightful Reflexes
18. Augment Summon

Are 3 spell pen feats overkill? I do get +1 spell pen from FvS past life. Epic spell focus worth it? Can I live without wraith form? Augment summon sucks now, but when enhancement pass comes that skeletal knight looks pretty cool. It has other uses as well. I plan on having a decent dex and Shadowdancer 5 grants evasion. Can I live without Insightful Reflexes? Decisions, decisions...


Ok, from my estimations (7 Base +5 Wizard bonus +3 Epic @ 28) you only need to drop 3 feats. Which I would make to be Augment Summon, Extend and Toughness.

Under the new enhancements, you'll gain +20 HP for free with the changes to Heroic durability, and Half-Elves don't get Racial Toughness anymore anyway, thus freeing you from this feat.

In terms of Melee, I suppose it's going to be Master's Touch and Tenser's Transformation? That way you'll get your BAB20 and Proficiency. Rather than Scimitars, I would suggest Rapier's instead and get a pair of Balizarde's.

One thing I do see you gaining as quite an advantage with the Half-Elf platform is the ability to stack some decent PRR here, as using the new Elven Arcanum enhancement you'll be able to wear Light Armour and still have 0% Spell Failure. With Tensers, a Planar Focus of Prowess, a Blue augment, you can quickly stack up a bit of additional defense in addition to your Displacement/Wraith Form combo.

Tbh, though, Unbongwah has a point - spell spam is pretty good and effective on a Arcane these days, especially with Shiradi effects backing it up. If you plan on Melee'ing a lot, you'll only be wanting to cast AoE damage spells so you can get on with fighting while they provide you a little extra DPS.

Hmm, its doable...

[unbongwah]

Under the new enhancements, you'll gain +20 HP for free with the changes to Heroic durability, and Half-Elves don't get Racial Toughness anymore anyway, thus freeing you from this feat.
Toughness is currently a pre-req for lich form, which I consider a must-have; so between that & the extra HPs while leveling, it should stay. Not sure about under the Enhancement overhaul, but since we're all supposed to get free LRs (again) when it rolls around, it's kind of a moot point, as we'll all need to fix our characters (again).

In terms of Melee, I suppose it's going to be Master's Touch and Tenser's Transformation? That way you'll get your BAB20 and Proficiency. Rather than Scimitars, I would suggest Rapier's instead and get a pair of Balizarde's.
Balizarde is keen, though, and the only weapon-specific feat on this build is Imp Crit, so it doesn't matter.

One thing I do see you gaining as quite an advantage with the Half-Elf platform is the ability to stack some decent PRR here, as using the new Elven Arcanum enhancement you'll be able to wear Light Armour and still have 0% Spell Failure. With Tensers, a Planar Focus of Prowess, a Blue augment, you can quickly stack up a bit of additional defense in addition to your Displacement/Wraith Form combo.
Pure wiz won't have any armor prof. (http://ddowiki.com/page/Non-proficiency), though, which means no PRR and armor check penalty is applied to to-hit rolls.

Also: belatedly noticed no Power Atk or Precision; should definitely add at least one of those to any melee build.

[Hamlin]

Hey guys, thank you for the awesome amount of feedback, I appreciate it. First, I think I need to be a little clearer about what I intend to do with this build. Actually, I'm not 100% sure on that. I just saw that the DCs for almost all of the shadow dancer abilities depend on int. And we've all seen wizard/rogue splashes before. So I thought there's synergy here and I could make a cool character if I can work it out and develop it. Again, I imagine it's gonna change quite a bit by the time I actually roll it. I also considered a 18/2 split with artificer dilly, essentially trading 2d6 sneak attack for trapping skills and earlier evasion. I might still go that route but I want to fully explore 20 wiz/5 shadowdancer first.

I've been breaking from the TR grind for the past couple of months and I've noticed there aren't a lot people playing arcanes in the 20-25 range. So I thought I'd TR my FvS that I never played anyway into a wizard. Magister didn't really excite me and draconic feels more sorc than wizzy. I'm sure I'll still twist some abilities from those trees, but shadowdancer looks very interesting.

1. Shadow Mastery (innate) grants evasion, and vorpals remove sneak attack immunity.
2. Shadow Lance - Free nuke to mix into my rotation. Wonder if pale master bonus spell power to negative energy boost this?
3. Lithe - Boost AC and reflex saves
4. Cloak of Shadows - Stoneskin-like immunity to light damage! Very handy for a PM in undead form
5. Shrouding Strike - extra melee damage, build shadow charges for other abilities
6. Meld Into Darkness - 100% dodge for 15 seconds. Good "Oh sh**" button
7. Improved Invisibility - unbreakable invis for 30 seconds, free displacement afterwards
8. Executioner's Strike - Extra melee damage, chance for instakill

AND...the two abilities I REALLY like...

9. Shadow Manipulation - Dominate/charm target for 1 minute, then he dies afterwards. INT based DC. Awesome.
10. Consume - Divines get implosion. I'll have a similar INT based ability.

Tier 2 and 3 don't have much for me so I can boost int instead of taking abilities there. More INT is never bad for a wizard.

I mainly see myself using melee because I'm saving SP for a big fight, low on SP, or I just want to finish a mob off without expending any SP. Most of the abilities I listed above cost shadow charges, and I'll need some melee anyway to build those up. So that ties together nicely. I would melee all the time during my FvS life an he wasn't stacked with a ton of melee feats either. Wouldn't do it on EE, but EH you can get away with it. I'll have 9d6 sneak attack damage if you combine rogue dilly + Shadowdancer 5. Blindness is a lvl 2 necromancy spell...I'll be sneak attacking mobs that will have a harder time hitting me back. It also goes without saying that I'll be using master's touch and tensors at all times during melee.

Having said all that...melee will still be situational and only used as I stated in the previous paragraph. I still intend on being a fully functional good DC/spell pen wizard.

I'm going to stop here, I know I just wrote a lot and I don't want it to become a book. I'll address some of your points in a later post, just wanted to write down my vision for this character (as it stands now).

[Hamlin]

You mention scimitars later, which are slashing weapons, not piercing.

Wraith should be swapped for lich when you hit lvl 18; that will let you swap MT for a different meta.

On a pure wiz, you won't hit BAB 11 until lvl 22; that means you can't take GTWF before lvl 24. Which means until the lvl cap is raised to 28, you have to pick 2 out of ESF/ESP/GTWF.

Epic levels give you 1 bab per level, so actually I could take GTWF at 21. Your point is made though, that I'm giving up an epic feat for better twf. I've never rolled a TWF character before without GTWF though. Always felt that if you don't take the whole line, there's no point. Maybe I'm wrong. I left GTWF in above, but I am considering replacing it with ESF or ESP.


Extend is useful for short-term spells like Death Aura and Haste; however it is not essential, IMHO.

Summons (still) aren't worth it; but if you really want it, go grind out an eRoderic's Wand (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Roderic%27s_Wand) before TRing.

I don't see Quicken on your list; I consider that a must-have if you want to ensure your self-heals w/Neg Energy Burst, if nothing else.

I'm scrapping augment summon for now. The current summons suck, but after the enhancement pass and increase in level cap, I might be able to work it in if the new skeletal knight is worth it. Regarding Quicken, I know it's sacrilegious to have a caster without it, but I've actually gotten away with it before. Sure, it takes some skill to retreat and get some distance between you and the mob beating on you, but I did it with my melee druid and got away with it. It is harder than just using a quickened heal, but I don't think it ever cost my character his life. Would have loved to have it, but we can't have everything.


Also: bear in mind halflings are supposed to get Assassin as a racial PrE; so imagine being able to add Assassinate to all your other abilities. :eek: But as with all things Turbine, I'll believe it when I see it... :rolleyes:

How exactly do you see yourself playing this char? In particular, when do you expect melee + SD abilities to be more useful than just spamming your spells?

I have no idea what's coming and like you, I'll believe in the racial PREs when I see them. For now, I'm going with what I know. We get a free LR+20 when enhancements come, and then there's always TRing again if I want a new race. Anyway, that's too far down the road with too little information at this point to worry about now. As far as how I see myself playing this character, check out my second post. I laid it all out there. Might want to download it to your kindle first though lol. It's alot of reading.

[Hamlin]

Ok, from my estimations (7 Base +5 Wizard bonus +3 Epic @ 28) you only need to drop 3 feats. Which I would make to be Augment Summon, Extend and Toughness.

Under the new enhancements, you'll gain +20 HP for free with the changes to Heroic durability, and Half-Elves don't get Racial Toughness anymore anyway, thus freeing you from this feat.

Because of the uncertainty coming down the road regarding enhancements, I decided not to take them into account. For the purposes of this build, I'm not factoring anything that may or may not happen down the road. You make good points though and if those things definitely come to pass, I'll take advantage of them.


In terms of Melee, I suppose it's going to be Master's Touch and Tenser's Transformation? That way you'll get your BAB20 and Proficiency. Rather than Scimitars, I would suggest Rapier's instead and get a pair of Balizarde's.

That's exactly how it will be done. Or, I could use Pierce the Gloom which makes every swing hit except for a roll of 1. I won't have the extra STR, CON, and AC that comes with Tensors, but I won't take the hit to casting speed, DCs or spell pen. That makes me even more flexible and I can use either depending on the situation.


One thing I do see you gaining as quite an advantage with the Half-Elf platform is the ability to stack some decent PRR here, as using the new Elven Arcanum enhancement you'll be able to wear Light Armour and still have 0% Spell Failure. With Tensers, a Planar Focus of Prowess, a Blue augment, you can quickly stack up a bit of additional defense in addition to your Displacement/Wraith Form combo.

As Unbongwah said, I don't think you can get PRR on armor if you're not proficient. So the only reason I would wear armor is if it significantly increased my AC. Nice to have the option though!


Tbh, though, Unbongwah has a point - spell spam is pretty good and effective on a Arcane these days, especially with Shiradi effects backing it up. If you plan on Melee'ing a lot, you'll only be wanting to cast AoE damage spells so you can get on with fighting while they provide you a little extra DPS.

Hmm, its doable...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with spell spam and I don't claim this build to be superior. This is just a slightly different way to play the wizard class. Plus, they're revamping stealth in the future. Who knows, maybe this build would be superior due to it's stealth abilities! Imagine sneaking into a group of mobs and hitting wail before they even know you're there!