The Official Shadar-Kai Iconic Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[SqueakofDoom]

We are currently previewing Racial Enhancements on Lamannia.

Please use this thread to share your thoughts on the Shadar-Kai Iconic Enhancement Tree!

You can also discuss the Shadar-Kai Iconic here ('https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/420151-The-Official-Shadar-Kai-Iconic-Discussion-Thread!').

[ComicRelief]

After rolling-up a new Shadra-Kai, here are my initial thoughts on the S-K Racial Enhancement tree:

Overall, I thought it looked good. The enhancements available seem to be a nice cross-section of abilities.

That said, I am highly disappointed that one must now select the "level 1 core enhancement" in order to "unlock" the tree (this applies to ALL new enhancement trees, as well) AND that the level 1 core enhancement now costs 1 AP (instead of the 0 AP that [at least some of them] they were during "alpha").

Additionally, I still...loathe the idea of having spent AP requirements in general, and spent AP requirements "in the tree" in particular, but especially in any of the racial enhancement trees. In my opinion (and it is just that - *MY* opinion), if one is going to insist on having AP spent requirements (as, unfortunately, seems to be the case), one should still do away with "AP spent in tree" for the racial trees (at least). That is, have the APs spent in any of the class trees count towards APs spent in the racial tree, too.

Of course, the proper way to limit certain abilities is by class/character level (as applicable) and not AP spent requirements (once agin, *MY* opinion, though I know others share it). Because all AP spent requirements do is force people to take enhancements they don't want in order to unlockl the ones they do want. Which is a silly mechanic.

BTW - there is what I assume is a bug for the "Whirling Chain" (tier 5) enhancement in that it says it costs 99 AP. Since I assume we are still going to be limited to 80 AP, there is no way to be able to get this enhancement (we'd need to have over 120 APs if it really does indeed cost 99 APs).

Not sure how to "bug it", though.
;)

[Steelstar]

Whirling Chain (T5) was set to 99AP for this round on Lamannia because it wasn't quite ready for action. It will be set to a normal AP cost in an upcoming Lamannia patch. :)

[Wizza]

Very very disappointed by these Racial Enhancements.

Let's start with the basis:


Core:

Tier 1: Useless but you must take it. You get up faster when stabilized? Who cares?

Tier 2: The usual +Dex/Int/Wis. WHY WIS? For a rogue?! Make it STR.

Tier 3: "You become invisible and are able to move through monsters as if you were ethereal for SIX seconds". Is this even serious? What kind of ability is this? It has ZERO uses with such a short duration. You can't even skip 3 mobs that it turns off. Cooldown 1 min (reduced to 30 sec with Tier 5 lol) J U N K.

Tier 4: "You become invisible and charge forward. During the jaunt, you are able to through monsters as if you were ethereal, lasts 6 seconds" Same as above. Are you guys trying to make all the abilities the same? We have already tumble in EDs (Magister) that pass through enemies and guess who uses it? Noone.

Tier 5: "The cooldown of T3 and T4 are reduced to 30 seconds. In addition, when you use either ability, nearby allies become partially incorporeal" 15% Incorporeal for 6 seconds. Another piece of junk. 5% more than Ghostly, 10% less than Shadow form Shadow fade. No reason to take this at all.


Now to the Racial enhancement themselves:

Tier 1:

Spiked Chain attack (SCA from now on): AoE melee attack that deals 1d6+4 + 1d6 per level to all nearby enemies. Reflex save for half damage. This would actually be decent IF AND ONLY IF it didn't stop you. When you cast it, you stand in the stand, you can't move, can't do anything. If it stays like this, noone will bother with this.

Keen Sense: +1 Listen/Search/Spot

Bold: Fear and Shaken removed after 12/8/4 seconds. Not too bad.

Student of the Pain: When you take damage, you have a 5/10/15% chance to gain 10 AC for 12 seconds. Is this serious? 10 AC? On a rogue? Make is 30 PRR and then we can talk about it. 15% is too low anyway. Up it to 30%.

Stealthy: +1/2/3 Hide and MS



Tier 2:

Vicious Chain: Spiked chain has a chance to cause bleed (Can stack up to 3 times, maybe more but the timer doesn't let you stack it more than 3 times). An addition to Spiked chain so FIX SPIKED CHAIN.

Improved Dodge: Pre-req DODGE feat: +1/2/3 Dodge when wearing light armor or no armor. Good.

Ghostly essence: "When you are below 50% HP, on hit you gain a 25% Incorporality for 6/12/18 seconds. CAN ONLY OCCUR ONCE EVERY TWO MINUTES". The last sentence makes this ability trash. Also, didn't you get the memo that abilities that requires you to be at certain thresold of HP ARE JUNK?

Guile: +1 SA.

Shadow smoke: "Use an action charge to give allies +5/10/15 Hide and MS". Read it again. Should I need to tell you why these is useless? Using an action boost to give 15 HIDE AND MS?





Tier 3:

Slashing chain: Your SCA deals an additional 1d10 slashing damage. FIX SCA.

Forceful chain: Your SCA has a chance to knock enemies down. Chances seems about a 15%. Decent. FIX SCA.

Improved Ghostly essence: when Ghostly essence triggers, all nearby allies gain Incorporality for 6/12/18 seconds. Same problem as Ghostly essence.

Guilde: +1 SA




Tier 4:

Whirling chain: FIX SCA.

Nothing is Hidden: Auto-Search skill check at -12/-8/-4 Penalty. Meh.

Winter Favored: Toggle: 1d6 extra cold damage and 5 cold resistance. Finally something useful. You can have Winter Favored, Venomed blades and Precision all ON at the same time.

Gloom stalker: While in sneak, your weapons make the target vulnerable to SA. Can also blind. No idea why would someone attack from sneak. Bad idea.




Overall, I don't like them. The chain could be nice if it allowed you to move while using it. The only good ability here is Winter favored. I also expected more SA dice. Halflings gain more SA than this Iconic.

[ComicRelief]

Whirling Chain (T5) was set to 99AP for this round on Lamannia because it wasn't quite ready for action. It will be set to a normal AP cost in an upcoming Lamannia patch. :)

Cool. I did figure out how to "bug it", though - so I did.
;)

[Alistina]

The racial core enhancements are quite idiotic! In fact any buff or buff like ability that you get for 6-12 sec is completely and utterly useless in the game. Hell, it takes longer than 6sec to move a toon with all the lag on live these days ;)

Also, like the 1st post says, the compulsory cost of the 1st AP in a tree is too much. While creating a toon, I find myself taking mostly the things I don't want just so that I can unlock one or two I do need. And this leaves me with no AP to spend on 2nd/3rd tree that I might have wanted to take. This, when I'm not even multiclassing...

[Scrag]

The racial core enhancements are quite idiotic! In fact any buff or buff like ability that you get for 6-12 sec is completely and utterly useless in the game. Hell, it takes longer than 6sec to move a toon with all the lag on live these days ;)


It's not useless. Ive been trapped in narrow confines with no way to escape because I could neither jump above, through, or around mobs. It enables you to keep a single front when in a fight. I know several uses I would make of it.... While not "omgpowerwutrudoing", it DEFINITELY has valid, useful, repeat use purposes.

Also: Gloomstalker? It makes them vuln to SA. IE, things like, oh, elementals, golems, undead, undead, undead, general constructs, edge cases, undead are all sneakable. With enough dice and focused SA, you can take down any problem child. Its a one shot version of the thief capstone without having to have a thief capstone. And if your hide is large enough, you can use it multiple times in a fight. It is far far far far far far far from useless.

[Alistina]

It's not useless. Ive been trapped in narrow confines with no way to escape because I could neither jump above, through, or around mobs. It enables you to keep a single front when in a fight. I know several uses I would make of it.... While not "omgpowerwutrudoing", it DEFINITELY has valid, useful, repeat use purposes.

Also: Gloomstalker? It makes them vuln to SA. IE, things like, oh, elementals, golems, undead, undead, undead, general constructs, edge cases, undead are all sneakable. With enough dice and focused SA, you can take down any problem child. Its a one shot version of the thief capstone without having to have a thief capstone. And if your hide is large enough, you can use it multiple times in a fight. It is far far far far far far far from useless.

Not sure what you mean by 'trapped' here. If you are in a niche and wish to cross through unseen without a fight, how are you going to 'escape' undetected in 6 sec?? Again, now sure how often you would actually come across this through out the game, but IMO using bluff would be much simpler to get rid of the big mob blocking your path rather than trying to pass through them n get beaten up and surrounded if the buff thingy end and I'm still in the middle of the crowd.

Anyways, I'm not trying to question your playstyle here, good to know that it will be useful to you. But for me, it is still utterly useless. I would much rather use bluff and fight/ or cast invisi and run through if I really have to. And I'm not just saying it, I have a perma rogue toon who mostly soloes all the way and several other toons with SA with either rogue/monk levels and I don't see myself using it.

It would still be okay if its placed in the enhancements like a tree, so that people who want to can take it if it suits there playstyle, but its definitely not core enhancement worthy.

[Wizza]

It's not useless. Ive been trapped in narrow confines with no way to escape because I could neither jump above, through, or around mobs. It enables you to keep a single front when in a fight. I know several uses I would make of it.... While not "omgpowerwutrudoing", it DEFINITELY has valid, useful, repeat use purposes.

Also: Gloomstalker? It makes them vuln to SA. IE, things like, oh, elementals, golems, undead, undead, undead, general constructs, edge cases, undead are all sneakable. With enough dice and focused SA, you can take down any problem child. Its a one shot version of the thief capstone without having to have a thief capstone. And if your hide is large enough, you can use it multiple times in a fight. It is far far far far far far far from useless.

There is the Shadowdancer ability core Tier 5 that is much more useful than Gloomstalker. Also, Gloomstalker requires you to attack FROM SNEAK to make them Vulnerable. It's an idiotic piece of junk.

Also, I've no idea what you with the first paragraph.

[Steelstar]

There is the Shadowdancer ability core Tier 5 that is much more useful than Gloomstalker. Also, Gloomstalker requires you to attack FROM SNEAK to make them Vulnerable. It's an idiotic piece of junk.


It is, in fact, intended that a ML20 Epic Destiny ability is more powerful than a ML5 Heroic Enhancement.

[Wizza]

It is, in fact, intended that a ML20 Epic Destiny ability is more powerful than a ML5 Heroic Enhancement.

It is not that Steelstar. It is that the ML5 Heroic Enhancement has no uses and it's junk right now. You don't expect people to really sneak before attacking mobs, do you? And when the effect wears off, what do you expect us to do? Sneak mid-combat to try to use again? You know that once you are hit mid-combat you lose sneak right?

If you wanted to give us a way to make mobs vulnerable to SA damage, you could have simply reduced the duration to 6 seconds.

This would be something. But still, there are the T3 and T4 Core abilities that are now one of the worst enhancements added to this game that I've ever seen.


You haven't commented on the other 5/6 of my post thou.

[dlsidhe]

It is not that Steelstar. It is that the ML5 Heroic Enhancement has no uses and it's junk right now. You don't expect people to really sneak before attacking mobs, do you? And when the effect wears off, what do you expect us to do? Sneak mid-combat to try to use again? You know that once you are hit mid-combat you lose sneak right?

Attacking from sneak? On a rogue? UNPOSSIBLE!

Seriously, I'm ALWAYS sneaking on my rogue. I open every battle from sneak, if at all possible. So a chance to blind (more SA) and guaranteed SA damage regardless of fort on the first attack, so long as it's done from sneak? Sweet. It's a rogue, not a barbarian. If you're charging into battle, you're doing it wrong. And with the stealth changes, it's feasible to sneak, attack, hide, sneak/invis, attack again, and keep it up. You know, play a rogue like a rogue.

ETA:


Natural 20 vs Vorpal

A natural 20 is a vorpal strike.

[Wizza]

Attacking from sneak? On a rogue? UNPOSSIBLE!

Seriously, I'm ALWAYS sneaking on my rogue. I open every battle from sneak, if at all possible. So a chance to blind (more SA) and guaranteed SA damage regardless of fort on the first attack, so long as it's done from sneak? Sweet. It's a rogue, not a barbarian. If you're charging into battle, you're doing it wrong. And with the stealth changes, it's feasible to sneak, attack, hide, sneak/invis, attack again, and keep it up. You know, play a rogue like a rogue.

ETA:



A natural 20 is a vorpal strike.

Then you aren't optimizing your rogue. The only reason to sneak on a rogue is to Assassinate or walk past mobs. You think it's possible to "sneak, attack, hide, sneak/invis, attack again, and keep it up"? Lol please.

Even if that was possible, I have killed that mob and the ones ahead 3x faster than yours, soloing, making this ability trash. And you'd still waste 2 AP to take the previous Core abilities.


About vorpal: yeah I'll edit it out, too much thinking at this time is not good.

[Gwyxxx]

To Sneak or not to sneak? This is the problem.

In her first life my melee was a pure rogue. I did cannot sneak because my boyrfriend used to kill everything with his wizard not giving me the time to sneak. Only with some mini boss i was allowed to sneak and assassinate. And stop.

In her second life my Gwyvern was a barbarian. I hated this class with all my soul. I appreciated the area effect of cleave/great/supreme cleave, but i missed to much picking and disabling trap.
At least my boyf. reincarnated the wizard in a cleric. I liked a lot this.

In her third life i played a multiclass 12 barb/ 6 ranger / 2 rogue. I wanted the second barb past life, and i want proof another build. This was my first TR Elite. And i think that if i had assassinate, i used sneak in this life.
The two party barb\rogue cleric\monk is good enough to finish elite quest, ma not to zerg them. So moster can be killed one by one, at least the biggest ones, and sneak could be usefull.

Anyone has his style of game, but indeed... sneak in mid combat is not the best thing, and a only sneaking rogue needs another warrior that takes the aggro for him. I don't have it, and probably i will never play the pure rogue again.

I'm not on lama, so i don't judge this ability, i can't do it.

Ps. Sorry for bad english, again. (Italian)

[Candela90]

I made the comment on shadar-kai official thread, but Ill copy my enhancements feeling here too:
The short version:

My sugestions:
Change useless enhancements in shadar kai like:
Shadar-Kai Grit - +3 to all saves instead of fort thing + rest how it is.
Student of Pain - 10/15/20 Physical Resistance instead.
Bold - exchange it for more sneak attack or higher dodge cap. Anything. Its useless.
Shadow Smoke - useless right now. It would be better to clickie with 2 min cooldown for stacking +2 assassinate dc for 15 secs or sth.
Ghostly Essense - if it stacks with blur then ok. If not - then make it stack.
Winter Favored - move it to tier 1 or 2. Its not like its THAT better than 1 sneak attack die, Actually its worse:
For sneak attack to work you need only sneak attack.
For Winter Favored you need sneak attack and mob not immune cold.
Nothing is hidden - remove the penalty - I understand elves have penalty. But born rogue shouldnt.

I love jaunt - its a great ability. Can also make as a fvs wings-like move.

But overall - halfling get better dodge and sneak.
Humans get better stats raise and HEAL AMP.

Right now humans and halfling are better for rogue. Especially with human bonus feat and skill points.


Also Spiked Chain Attack is great - but I honestly woudnt use it. It draws too much agro. On a rogue grabbing agro of everything around is bad idea.

[Nascoe]

Then you aren't optimizing your rogue. The only reason to sneak on a rogue is to Assassinate or walk past mobs. You think it's possible to "sneak, attack, hide, sneak/invis, attack again, and keep it up"? Lol please.

Even if that was possible, I have killed that mob and the ones ahead 3x faster than yours, soloing, making this ability trash. And you'd still waste 2 AP to take the previous Core abilities.


About vorpal: yeah I'll edit it out, too much thinking at this time is not good.


Might it be that Turbine actually is working to make it optimal for a rogue to sneak then? The changes to sneak, and this together might make it a valid option again. But I do agree that it should last longer than 6 seconds for things you have to hit buttons to do

[Wizza]

Might it be that Turbine actually is working to make it optimal for a rogue to sneak then? The changes to sneak, and this together might make it a valid option again. But I do agree that it should last longer than 6 seconds for things you have to hit buttons to do

Again, sneaking mid-combat is not optimal. Unless they will allow us to attack WHILE BEING IN SNEAK ALL THE TIME, everything that requires you to sneak in mid-combat is junk.

What you gonna do? Sneak, attack, get away, sneak, attack, get away and repeat to kill a mob? This is useless. It's x3 faster if only the first hit is from sneak and the rest of the same you stand there and attack him normally otherwise you are going to see a ****load of DPS decrease.

[dlsidhe]

Again, sneaking mid-combat is not optimal. Unless they will allow us to attack WHILE BEING IN SNEAK ALL THE TIME, everything that requires you to sneak in mid-combat is junk.

What you gonna do? Sneak, attack, get away, sneak, attack, get away and repeat to kill a mob? This is useless. It's x3 faster if only the first hit is from sneak and the rest of the same you stand there and attack him normally otherwise you are going to see a ****load of DPS decrease.

But it doesn't require you to sneak mid-combat, it just lets you get SA on immune mobs for a moment. If your first attack isn't from sneak on your rogue, you're doing it wrong.

If you're running with a group and playing your rogue smart, then someone has aggro before you attack. You attack from stealth on an undead/redname/high-fort mob. Boom, SA. No problem.

The changes to sneak make it possible that you could re-sneak in combat, or use an invis clicky to shed aggro, and if you're in group and someone grabs aggro when you invis, then you sneak, attack again, get your SA back, rinse, repeat.

It's about thinking outside of the box of present conditions, and adapting to the new ones.

[Wizza]

But it doesn't require you to sneak mid-combat, it just lets you get SA on immune mobs for a moment. If your first attack isn't from sneak on your rogue, you're doing it wrong.

If you're running with a group and playing your rogue smart, then someone has aggro before you attack. You attack from stealth on an undead/redname/high-fort mob. Boom, SA. No problem.

The changes to sneak make it possible that you could re-sneak in combat, or use an invis clicky to shed aggro, and if you're in group and someone grabs aggro when you invis, then you sneak, attack again, get your SA back, rinse, repeat.

It's about thinking outside of the box of present conditions, and adapting to the new ones.

So, that ability lets you get SA on immune mob. How is that even useful? You are taking an ability that you will use once in a lifetime and only once per encounter? Because you know, SA-immune mobs are many.

Thinking outside of the box? Are you even serious? Possible to re-sneak in combat, attack, sneak, attack? Lol. This is NOT good. You shouldn't take a month to kill a SA-Immune mob. Just admit it that this ability just plain suck.

Sneak mid-combat, lol.

[dlsidhe]

So, that ability lets you get SA on immune mob. How is that even useful? You are taking an ability that you will use once in a lifetime and only once per encounter? Because you know, SA-immune mobs are many.

Thinking outside of the box? Are you even serious? Possible to re-sneak in combat, attack, sneak, attack? Lol. This is NOT good. You shouldn't take a month to kill a SA-Immune mob. Just admit it that this ability just plain suck.

Sneak mid-combat, lol.

Are we talking soloing or in a group? Soloing, no, you attack once from stealth, then pound away using bluff every time it comes off timer. The only difference is, under the new mechanics of stealth, you have the option of running away if things go bad and hiding, and the mobs aren't going to develop supersenses and find you immediately. ;)

In a group, using the new stealth mechanics, you pop stealth midcombat to regain your SA bonuses against high-fort mobs (like undead, or raid bosses). You shed aggro, use diplo, etc. It's really not that hard to grasp, unless you're universally opposed to New Things.

Given that, in my opinion, undead are a huge pain on a rogue due to their SA immunity, anything that would let me get SA on undead is not a wasted ability.

[Wizza]

Are we talking soloing or in a group? Soloing, no, you attack once from stealth, then pound away using bluff every time it comes off timer. The only difference is, under the new mechanics of stealth, you have the option of running away if things go bad and hiding, and the mobs aren't going to develop supersenses and find you immediately. ;)

In a group, using the new stealth mechanics, you pop stealth midcombat to regain your SA bonuses against high-fort mobs (like undead, or raid bosses). You shed aggro, use diplo, etc. It's really not that hard to grasp, unless you're universally opposed to New Things.

Given that, in my opinion, undead are a huge pain on a rogue due to their SA immunity, anything that would let me get SA on undead is not a wasted ability.

So in a group will sneak every time after the SA-Immunity wears off? Nice contribuition to the group you are, aren't you? I will be doing x3 your damage while you are busy sneaking-attacking and repeat to the infinitee.

Raid bosses? Why not using SD Core 5 ability when you are in a Raid group? Shadowdancer Core 5 ability >>>>>> this junk for Raid bosses.

[dlsidhe]

So in a group will sneak every time after the SA-Immunity wears off? Nice contribuition to the group you are, aren't you? I will be doing x3 your damage while you are busy sneaking-attacking and repeat to the infinitee.

Raid bosses? Why not using SD Core 5 ability when you are in a Raid group? Shadowdancer Core 5 ability >>>>>> this junk for Raid bosses.

Because some folks run raids when not epic? Astounding, I know, but people don't all play your way. :D I, personally, love doing at-level heroic Chronoscopes, usually with a PUG, because it's fun.

And, no, I personally wouldn't sneak every time the SA immunity wears off, but I would take advantage of it as much as possible. And I need to see your math for the damage estimates...;)

[Wizza]

Because some folks run raids when not epic? Astounding, I know, but people don't all play your way. :D I, personally, love doing at-level heroic Chronoscopes, usually with a PUG, because it's fun.

And, no, I personally wouldn't sneak every time the SA immunity wears off, but I would take advantage of it as much as possible. And I need to see your math for the damage estimates...;)

Oh please, tell me again how many Raids folks do at low levels. There are so many, right? :rolleyes:

You need math to understand that if you stop for 1-2 or more seconds to sneak every time you lose a lot of dps? Specially when in game there are a ****load of methods to SA even immune mobs? Haste + Haste boost will make every undead fall apart in a matter of a couple of seconds on a Rogue.

[dlsidhe]

Oh please, tell me again how many Raids folks do at low levels. There are so many, right? :rolleyes:

You need math to understand that if you stop for 1-2 or more seconds to sneak every time you lose a lot of dps? Specially when in game there are a ****load of methods to SA even immune mobs? Haste + Haste boost will make every undead fall apart in a matter of a couple of seconds on a Rogue.

You need your humor detector checked. ;)

[Svartelric]

@Alistina: The thing about being trapped happens to many many players. Only because you haven't seen it happen to you or anyone you play with doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Information is important when you write bold posts such as yours.

@Wizza: Your posts are full of assumptions. I disagree with almost every single thing you wrote. The SCA works well, for instance, as is the Jaunt. If you have no use for it, write that, but not that everyone will find these enhancement useless.

@Devs: This Iconic seems fleshed out pretty well, some tweaks would be useful; how about removing the AP cost from the first core enhancement, as was suggested? Also, I read somewhere about making the chain attack an "interruptable" action, like searching and such, would that be feasible?

[Wizza]

@Wizza: Your posts are full of assumptions. I disagree with almost every single thing you wrote. The SCA works well, for instance, as is the Jaunt. If you have no use for it, write that, but not that everyone will find these enhancement useless.


Oh, assumptions? I've played it extensively. You are going to use something that will not let you move for 3 seconds in EE? You will die no matter what.


@Alistina: The thing about being trapped happens to many many players. Only because you haven't seen it happen to you or anyone you play with doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Information is important when you write bold posts such as yours.

Being trapped happens many times? Lol. 4 years and counting and never seen that happening. Unless you are going to zerg EEs to be overwhelmed :rolleyes: this ability will not be useful, not at a least bit.

[Systern]

A natural 20 is a vorpal strike.

A natural 20 is a single die roll of 20.
A vorpal attack is a die roll of 20 followed by a second roll confirming the hit/critical.


@Wizza: Many, many, many experienced Assassins that I play with are quite adept at tumbling backwards/sneaking as the monster runs up/assassination attempt mid-combat. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean no one can.

[HatsuharuZ]

What's up with that white t-shirt?

[dlsidhe]

A natural 20 is a single die roll of 20.
A vorpal attack is a die roll of 20 followed by a second roll confirming the hit/critical.

I realized that about an hour after I posted. Just too lazy to go back and edit. :)

[Svartelric]

Being trapped happens many times? Lol. 4 years and counting and never seen that happening. Unless you are going to zerg EEs to be overwhelmed :rolleyes: this ability will not be useful, not at a least bit.

ASSumption!

[Hendrik]

So, that ability lets you get SA on immune mob. How is that even useful? You are taking an ability that you will use once in a lifetime and only once per encounter? Because you know, SA-immune mobs are many.

Thinking outside of the box? Are you even serious? Possible to re-sneak in combat, attack, sneak, attack? Lol. This is NOT good. You shouldn't take a month to kill a SA-Immune mob. Just admit it that this ability just plain suck.

Sneak mid-combat, lol.


Just come out and say it already man, stop beating around the bush!

Anyone/everyone that does not play the same exact way you do is not playing properly and is therefor a sub-optimal player playing a sub-optimal character and playing for fun has no place is the serious business that is a D&D MMO.

Yea, talk about LOL - thank you for them.

:rolleyes:

No place for a fun column in your min/max spreadsheet to "win" DDO?

[Wizza]

Just come out and say it already man, stop beating around the bush!

Anyone/everyone that does not play the same exact way you do is not playing properly and is therefor a sub-optimal player playing a sub-optimal character and playing for fun has no place is the serious business that is a D&D MMO.

Yea, talk about LOL - thank you for them.

:rolleyes:

No place for a fun column in your min/max spreadsheet to "win" DDO?

Yeah, enhancements that make you sneak mid-combat are sooo good :rolleyes: I pity whoever is going to do that. Also, anyone here is claiming that this will make mobs go down faster when in fact it is not. Killing them normally is a lot much faster.

It is not fun to hit a sneak, attack, go back a bit and repeat to the infinite for every single mob ;)

But yeah, please tell me how fun it will be for you. It will not change that this ability is and will be useless.

[dlsidhe]

Yeah, enhancements that make you sneak mid-combat are sooo good :rolleyes: I pity whoever is going to do that. Also, anyone here is claiming that this will make mobs go down faster when in fact it is not. Killing them normally is a lot much faster.

It is not fun to hit a sneak, attack, go back a bit and repeat to the infinite for every single mob ;)

But yeah, please tell me how fun it will be for you. It will not change that this ability is and will be useless.

Not for every mob, because trash can be dispatched posthaste (though I have, in Llamaland under the current sneak incarnation, managed to tumble out of line of sight, hide, and then assassinate a mob that I had actively aggro'd, then waited for his companions to stop looking for me before picking them off one by one. That was a moment where I felt like I was getting to be a rogue, not a light-armored fighter. It felt more like Baldur's Gate than Neverwinter Online. ;))

Against bosses in a group? Yes, I frequently work to regain sneak, both to get rid of aggro for a bit (my rogue is a rogue, and thus is a glass cannon with pointy objects) and to regain SA and flanking, because I like strategy. So, for me, it's not useless, and makes it more likely I'll buy the Shadar-Kai when they land in the store.

I know, I know, I'm a gimp who doesn't know what they're doing because I think my rogue should be a sneaky little thing who actively uses a bunch of skills and clickies (why else have UMD?) and not play just like, say, my paladin with her big axe and nigh-invincibility.

[Wizza]

Not for every mob, because trash can be dispatched posthaste (though I have, in Llamaland under the current sneak incarnation, managed to tumble out of line of sight, hide, and then assassinate a mob that I had actively aggro'd, then waited for his companions to stop looking for me before picking them off one by one. That was a moment where I felt like I was getting to be a rogue, not a light-armored fighter. It felt more like Baldur's Gate than Neverwinter Online. ;))

Against bosses in a group? Yes, I frequently work to regain sneak, both to get rid of aggro for a bit (my rogue is a rogue, and thus is a glass cannon with pointy objects) and to regain SA and flanking, because I like strategy. So, for me, it's not useless, and makes it more likely I'll buy the Shadar-Kai when they land in the store.

I know, I know, I'm a gimp who doesn't know what they're doing because I think my rogue should be a sneaky little thing who actively uses a bunch of skills and clickies (why else have UMD?) and not play just like, say, my paladin with her big axe and nigh-invincibility.

Not for every mob, but for every mob with SA-immunity. Pratically, if you ever run Wizard king, you will spend a good 2 hours just sneaking to get rid of their SA-Immunity when hitting them normally would be faster . If that works for you, cool.

Against bosses you work to regain sneak? What does that even mean? You run away, then sneak and then go back to the boss? Are you even serious? You need nothing of all this to regain SA and flanking. You need to position better and have some Fort bypass on your rogue. And again, against bosses Shadowdancer >>>>>> this ****. No need to sneak and no need for a loss of dps (what you do trying to run away and sneak is a lot of loss of dps).

Your rogue might even be a sneaky little thing but if you wanna use sub-optimal enhancements that is up to you. That does not make this enhancement any good at all.

[Alistina]

@Alistina: The thing about being trapped happens to many many players. Only because you haven't seen it happen to you or anyone you play with doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Information is important when you write bold posts such as yours.

@Wizza: Your posts are full of assumptions. I disagree with almost every single thing you wrote. The SCA works well, for instance, as is the Jaunt. If you have no use for it, write that, but not that everyone will find these enhancement useless.

@Devs: This Iconic seems fleshed out pretty well, some tweaks would be useful; how about removing the AP cost from the first core enhancement, as was suggested? Also, I read somewhere about making the chain attack an "interruptable" action, like searching and such, would that be feasible?

Sorry to say this, but it seems to me that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing, and I fail to see what you mean by 'bold comment' loll. Read what I said first. I'm not questioning whether it can happen in the game or not. What I'm asking was that how is the 6sec duration of the buff going to help you in getting out of the situation? Also, I explained a lot of other (rogue-friendly) ways of getting out of such situation, that actually will actually have a chance of getting you out alive, if you do manage to find a way place yourself in such a situation, of coruse ;)

[Wizza]

And not a single change made to this either.

No fix to Spiking chain stopping you in place.

[Kam-Ekaze]

And not a single change made to this either.

No fix to Spiking chain stopping you in place.

I am perplexed that they have not posted any fixes to these obviously broken features provided all the intellectual feedback I have witnessed on this thread coming from you, sir.

[Wizza]

I am perplexed that they have not posted any fixes to these obviously broken features provided all the intellectual feedback I have witnessed on this thread coming from you, sir.

Sarcasm noted and ignored :)

[Silken-Akira]

Wanted to post my opinion. but gladly people like Wizza stopped me. I sometimes forget that forums are 90% full of people who only understand and defend their own voice and make forums full of useless onesided opinions.
Please note: I don't mean that Wizza's don't count it just the way he voice it and the relentless defending because it is in Wizza's opinion that his view is the only correct one that disturbs me. I also although I pick him out (I was very interested in the Shadar-Kai and their progress) I don't mean to attack him really personally. forums are full threads of this kind exciting conversations to read.

Now does anyone else has a new opinion/thought or a developer new news? Please, the thread needs it to get worthwile to read again.

[Wizza]

Wanted to post my opinion. but gladly people like Wizza stopped me. I sometimes forget that forums are 90% full of people who only understand and defend their own voice and make forums full of useless onesided opinions.
Please note: I don't mean that Wizza's don't count it just the way he voice it and the relentless defending because it is in Wizza's opinion that his view is the only correct one that disturbs me. I also although I pick him out (I was very interested in the Shadar-Kai and their progress) I don't mean to attack him really personally. forums are full threads of this kind exciting conversations to read.

Now does anyone else has a new opinion/thought or a developer new news? Please, the thread needs it to get worthwile to read again.

You are actually wrong.

I don't think my opinion is the only one valid. My opinion is objective. It depends on the opinion of the others.

When people start to say "I will sneak everytime every few seconds just to kill a single mob so this ability will be useful TO ME" well it's just ********. Sneaking, AT A BOSS, so you lose aggro to gain SA? Seriously? Who does that? The only three people posted in this thread.

Or when you state that you find yourself cornered A LOT that you can't escape so jaunt, a 30 (THIRTY) second cooldown ability, will be useful. What? Does not make any sense. Are we now planning abilities for the 1/4000 case of something happening?

Or when you say the chain is useful. Good luck aggroing all those mobs in EE while standing still. You will have tons of fun without the ability to move. And we are talking about an Action oriented MMO. Every ability that stops you in place = VERY BAD.

You can post your own opinions but if you are going to spit non-sense, I will point that out. If an ability is bad, I'll say it, not because I don't like it, but because it is just bad.

[Eleidon]

How can someone be objective when it comes to play and feedback ?
I can perfectly understand Silken opinion (and Sidhe's one) : one has the entier freedom to choose its own playstyle, if it fits him/her better and they enjoy the game much.

I find it bad that rogues are at the moment mostly light fighters with some disable/umd ability. That's rather poor compared to what this class can offer. If i choose to play a rogue, i don't want to have the same game experience as playing a basher. Managing aggro, stealth and so on can be interesting (mostly in solo, groups are usually zerging through the quests, making not much use of that hopelessly)
One does not simply play to have the most powerful toon, but before all to retain pleasure of the gaming experience (or so i thought)

And so comes people telling that optimization has to be considered before all, and that builds proven are the only possible ones. Well, i made some strange builds nobody was talking about, got pleasure with them, and was not at all a gimp in groups even so. Wizza and other optimization-likers must understand that their experience is only a portion of what is feasible, and beware before talking loudly about a "true vision" of the game and how to play it.

What i find interesting with the new update (and next ones) is the renewal of the stealth. "fighter-rogue" was more a constant these days because of the broken stealth management. This being worked on, i hope it will allow to see many stealth rogues/stalkers/ninjas in the future.
And it is much likely that shadar-kai is build considering the new stealth fact, not the ancient one, so decorrelating the two are likely to provide false feedback.

For my contribution about the topic in itself, i'd say like it was pointed, that a "search" progressive action would be better for Spiking Chain. Making it active when running would prove too powerful in my opinion. It would also allow to manage the aggro, stopping it when you want.
Else, i find the enhancement tree quite interesting.

[Wizza]

How can someone be objective when it comes to play and feedback ?
I can perfectly understand Silken opinion (and Sidhe's one) : one has the entier freedom to choose its own playstyle, if it fits him/her better and they enjoy the game much.

I find it bad that rogues are at the moment mostly light fighters with some disable/umd ability. That's rather poor compared to what this class can offer. If i choose to play a rogue, i don't want to have the same game experience as playing a basher. Managing aggro, stealth and so on can be interesting (mostly in solo, groups are usually zerging through the quests, making not much use of that hopelessly)
One does not simply play to have the most powerful toon, but before all to retain pleasure of the gaming experience (or so i thought)

This is now something you can do with the stealth changes. We are talking about Shadar-Kai enhancement and it has nothing to do with them.




For my contribution about the topic in itself, i'd say like it was pointed, that a "search" progressive action would be better for Spiking Chain. Making it active when running would prove too powerful in my opinion. It would also allow to manage the aggro, stopping it when you want.
Else, i find the enhancement tree quite interesting.

I'd like to remind you: this is DDO. We have a ****load of powerful (MUCH MORE powerful) abilities that can be used while moving (everything, basically) and when it comes down to the new Spiking Chain of Shadar it is too powerful? Managing aggro is one of the best active thing to do in this game. This is just a Great Cleave with a KD side effect. Are you saying that Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Lay waste and everything else should also stop you in place

[tapster]

Has anyone tested to see if melee power affects any of the chain attacks?