The Official Shadar-Kai Iconic Discussion Thread!

[SqueakofDoom]

Please use this thread to discuss the Shadar-Kai Iconic.

The Shadar-Kai Iconic's Enhancements are also being discussed here ('https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/420190-The-Official-Shadar-Kai-Iconic-Enhancements-Discussion-Thread!').

[Lilliana]

Edit: I have re-posted my post in the bug forum.

[JarinDearly]

This might be the best place to ask this, soo... I noticed that there isn't an extra feat, nor any extra skill points like a regular human might receive. Is this a Faerun specific thing or a Shadar-Kai specific thing??

[UurlockYgmeov]

I talked to Elminster - but didn't complete the chat - then completed leveling.... when I went back wouldn't let me finish the chat with him.

Also why no Feather Fall on the Iconics gear(Bladeforged and Shadarkai) ? Shardarkai I understand because of tumble....

Also - Risk / Reward - Flawless white dragon armor? These daggers are ML:15 and to get the full benefit need a ml:20 armor that requires Heroic Commendations?

[UurlockYgmeov]

Also - why the smallest bags? Why not the medium bags (blue green red) that can be already bought in game with plat....

Aren't the iconics supposed to be - I need a character - lv15 - don't have the time ---

[ComicRelief]

While creating a new Shdra-Kai, I noticed that they are in fact considered "human", but only get one feat at level 1. Now, I realize that it is an iconic class, but since they are considered "human" (and you cannot select any other race), I was expecting to recieve the standard, human bonus feat. Because, you know, they are "human".

I'm sure it is WAI (and it's not a game-breaker), but still - "human" is "human" so don't they deserve the bonus feat that "all" humans get?
;)

----
Edit: Nija'd!
;)

[ComicRelief]

Again, probably WAI, but I am disappointed at the lack of visual customization that is available as to how the Shadra-Kai "look". Especially hair styles/colors (from blonde to black, but no greens, reds, blues, or even white). No eye color customization. A total of 5 hair styles, all of which are some form of shaved. No facial hair at all.

Now, granted, since it is an iconic class, there may be something in lore (and I will freely admit I know nothing about the Shadra-Kai lore) about "how" they look, but from my perspective, they are assassins and at leaset some assassins would prefer to "blend in". Kind of hard to "blend in" when everything about you screems "I AM AN ASSASSIN!" and have such clearly distictive markings. Keep the mandatory scars - but how about at least a few more hair styles, especially for the female versions.
;)

[JarinDearly]

While creating a new Shdra-Kai, I noticed that they are in fact considered "human", but only get one feat at level 1. Now, I realize that it is an iconic class, but since they are considered "human" (and you cannot select any other race), I was expecting to recieve the standard, human bonus feat. Because, you know, they are "human".

I'm sure it is WAI (and it's not a game-breaker), but still - "human" is "human" so don't they deserve the bonus feat that "all" humans get?
;)

----
Edit: Nija'd!
;)

I completely agree. But, just in the wondering sort of way...

[hi_sa1nt]

99 action points for Whirling Chain?!?! No thanks.

[Caeremon]

I noticed when creating the shadar kai character that in the description it mentions the shadar kai starts with more dex and less wisdom
when looking at the points prior to spending the 32 pts I noticed that while dex did start at 10
I noticed it was 6 charisma and 8 wis. is this a typo or the way its meant to be?

[WargamerIV]

Two comments:

The spiked chain use clicky looks too much like an always active ability octagon, not a square clicky.

Someone hit me for damage in town where normally you can't hurt others (this was in Wheloon, near the quest givers.

[Vargouille]

- Shadar-kai is human for the purposes of items and effects, but they aren't actually human per se. You don't need massive UMD to use Race Restricted: Human items, for instance. They are not considered human in terms of character creation. They get +2 to Dexterity and -2 Charisma (there is a text bug saying Wisdom).

[Alistina]

There is supposed to be some set bonus to dual wielding both the starter dagger it seems. I am getting an icon where all the set bonuses are shown, its got a dragon like image, but it has incomplete description, says it gives 0.5 (Exactly 0.5 of what is missing)

[dejafu]

Again, probably WAI, but I am disappointed at the lack of visual customization that is available as to how the Shadra-Kai "look". Especially hair styles/colors (from blonde to black, but no greens, reds, blues, or even white). No eye color customization. A total of 5 hair styles, all of which are some form of shaved. No facial hair at all.

Now, granted, since it is an iconic class, there may be something in lore (and I will freely admit I know nothing about the Shadra-Kai lore) about "how" they look, but from my perspective, they are assassins and at leaset some assassins would prefer to "blend in". Kind of hard to "blend in" when everything about you screems "I AM AN ASSASSIN!" and have such clearly distictive markings. Keep the mandatory scars - but how about at least a few more hair styles, especially for the female versions.
;)

Shadar-Kai are a human offshoot race that consistently engage in painful ritual body modification as a way of keeping themselves grounded in the emotionally deadening Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow. Seriously. They're that emo.

Though I have to admit, as silly as an all-emo race sounds, I actually like the visual appearance options quite a bit - they're very distinctive, no question about it. But a few more hair options would be good, yeah (I'm assuming store-bought hair styles work on them, but still). And if you're going to leave us with only one look available for the eyes, why not make them entirely black - pure black eyes with no whites seems thematically appropriate.

[FranOhmsford]

Shadar-Kai are a human offshoot race that consistently engage in painful ritual body modification as a way of keeping themselves grounded in the emotionally deadening Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow. Seriously. They're that emo.

Though I have to admit, as silly as an all-emo race sounds, I actually like the visual appearance options quite a bit - they're very distinctive, no question about it. But a few more hair options would be good, yeah (I'm assuming store-bought hair styles work on them, but still). And if you're going to leave us with only one look available for the eyes, why not make them entirely black - pure black eyes with no whites seems thematically appropriate.

All Emos/Goths etc are NOT PUNKS!
Seriously - Go to a Rock Concert/Festival and look for Shaved Hair Styles like Mohawks and the Hair on one side only - These are a Tiny Minority!

I realise that every single song/band has to be compartmentalised to a specific GENRE!
I realise that Mods are supposed to hate Rockers {I like The Small Faces AND Status Quo thank you very much!}
I realise that Blur Fans and Oasis Fans aren't supposed to get along {guess what I BOUGHT both Country House AND Roll With It as Singles!}
I realise that admitting to liking The Black Album BUT disliking Metallica's earlier stuff is akin to starting World III!
BUT
Is this really something that should be pushed by Turbine?
Are we really going to start having players branded as Emo's simply for playing a Shadar-Kai?
We're finally getting to the point where we're able to play FEMALE Characters WITHOUT Being instantly branded as ...... {you know very well}.

When My Chemical Romance first appeared on the scene they were INSTANTLY Branded Emo Band Uncool to like!
Guess what - Their Music's actually pretty d@rn good!


ONLY ONE Look for Eyes is BAD too!

P.S. There is a Shadar Kai Witch in the Movie Dungeons & Dragons: The Book of Vile Darkness - And She DOES NOT have a Shaved Hair Style!



I was particularly annoyed by the lack of choices in Bladeforged Faces {Spikes, Spikes and MORE Spikes!} - In fact there's only ONE Usable choice for me {Guess What = NO Spikes!}.

Come on Devs - DDO is far in advance of the other MMO's I've tried to play {LotRo, Allods, SW:TOR, Neverwinter} when it comes to character customization and Graphics!
IN FACT: Whenever I read/hear someone say how great the graphics are in new games like SW:TOR and Neverwinter I'm ASTONISHED!
Cos to me they're not in the same league as DDOs!

More choices for Character Customization is good!
LESS IS BAD!
Get it?

[FranOhmsford]

BTW I've always disagreed with the consensus that Dwarves absolutely MUST have Beards incl. the Women {Terry Pratchett's Discworld Novels are the only books where this is a FACT and even there Dwarven Women have recently started to SHAVE!}.

I'm extremely glad that DDO doesn't force us to have Bears on our Dwarves!
Especially considering most of those Beards look like they've been bought from a joke shop!


Why force us to have Mohawks or other Shaved Hair Styles as a Shadar-Kai?


You did Leave ONE NON-SPIKY Option on Bladeforged {Although I'd like an actual Choice!} - Why no NON-Shaved Option on Shadar-Kai?

[Oldraven]

Because in every single thing that they've ever had published about them, pictures or otherwise, it states or shows numerous piercings and/or ritualistic scarring, pebbling, or painful-looking tattoos. Seriously, they use pain as a focus.

[FranOhmsford]

Because in every single thing that they've ever had published about them, pictures or otherwise, it states or shows numerous piercings and/or ritualistic scarring, pebbling, or painful-looking tattoos. Seriously, they use pain as a focus.

No-One's Complained about the Tatoos/Scarring!

The Complaints are about LACK of Hair Styles and ONLY ONE choice for Eyes!

How exactly is having a Mohawk PAINFUL {except to the Soul!}?


P.S. You might want to go watch Dungeons & Dragons: The Book of Vile Darkness before stating "Every single" etc.


Iconics {for me} are TOO Restrictive in terms of Character Customization appearance wise!
They seem to have looked at the likes of SW:TOR and Neverwinter when making Iconics - I'd like to tell the Devs that those games don't HOLD A CANDLE to DDO when it comes to Character appearance customization thank you very much!

[Candela90]

Ok. So starting with first impression:

1. Character creation:
Stats - no int bonus? Im negatively suprised. It should be dex AND int. Not dex only.
Skills&feats - lost of human bonus feat and skill points - negatively suprised again.
Looks - its cool, but Id like lots more options. I tend to like red hairs. Id also like to be able to customize the eyes - if not the color, the shape at least. And way too little hair styles. But not bad.

2. Enhancements:
From rogue ones:
I am still dissapointed that for melee rogue its difficult to get scroll mastery. Change it please.
Also Bleed them out from Assassin tree is a pity - the attack itself is ok but the "bleeding" thing is like 5-10 dmg. Maybe good on 1-5 lvls. Later on - pity.

Shadar-kai:
Bottom:
Shadar-Kai Grit - should be +1 to all saves
Shadow Phase and Shadow Jaunt - Its amazing but...I see no use in having both - especially that now when one is used both go on timer.
Empowered Jaunt - good but Id prefer if I was the one to get incorporeality etc. after jaunt ends. Not my allies. Also I hope it stacks with blur.

Tier 1:
Spiked Chain Attack - its not bad BUT I guess it gives mass agro - so I see no fit for it for rogue. I mean - cool hitting all stuffs around and all but - most rogues dont do good with agro of bunch of mobs. It needs to remove agro somehow after the attack. Damage is medicore - great on 1-15 lvls. Not that good later on.
Others are pretty much useless I think. totally useless.
Tier 1 needs work.

Tier 2:
Improved Dodge - great one.
Ghostly Senses - good IF it stacks with displacement/blur. If not theres no point - most ppl will be blurred all the time when 20+.
Shadow Smoke - see no sense.
Guile - always good.

Tier 3:
Forcefull Chain - Id like to know what % of chances it is.
Other are not too bad, but I wouldnt really take them besides Guilde ofc.

Tier 4:
Whirling Chain - impossible to take. So no opinion.
Nothing is hidden - I think the -12 penalty is good for other races. Shadar-kai should get no penalty. Its a rogue after all.
Winter Favored - Honestly? Its not bad if it was lower. 1d6 damage for tier 4 is pretty bad.
Gloom Stalker - it looks good but: How much time it lasts after break of sneak? I dont exactly understand how it works. Would like explanation.


3. Starting gear.
Its ok. Id just like Possibility to choose kukris or daggers or staff or crossbow - because everyone uses different things. It should not be only 1 weapon.



Summing up:

I dont think right now Shadar-kai is good choice for rogue.

Compared to human:
+ jaunt - its really good and usefull. I love it.
+ looks - shadar-kai look amazing.
+ Gloom Stalker - it looks good. No idea how exactly it works but...
+ 2 more dex while starting
+ 2d6 sneak attack from enhancements
+ 3% dodge

- 1 feat (for rogue its a lot)
- 4 skills points every lvl
- 30% heal amp from enhancements
- Dont count me on
- 1 ability score up
- skill and damage boost
- stat bump while under boost

So human vs shadar-kai: For me human wins. Mainly due to feat and heal amp. Rogues have so many things to get on gear I have hard time fitting heal amp. Right now having less than 130% heal amp is not fun.
Also rogues are feat starved - 1 feat is a lot.
Also Im worried because Shadar Kai tier 1 is really ****** - right now I can take tier 2 avoiding tier 1 - but I guess it wont be like that in future.

Shadar Kai vs Halfling:
+ jaunt - its really good and usefull. I love it.
+ looks - shadar-kai look amazing.
+ Gloom Stalker - it looks good. No idea how exactly it works but...

- Nimble Reaction
- Heroic Companion
- 1d6 sneak attack
- Skillfull and Master thrower
- Halfling Agility (possible 5% dodge)
- 3 to all saving throws
- 1 dex

Here also - Im doubtfull that Shadar-Kai is better.

My sugestions:
Change useless enhancements in shadar kai like:
Shadar-Kai Grit - +3 to all saves instead of fort thing + rest how it is.
Student of Pain - 10/15/20 Physical Resistance instead.
Bold - exchange it for more sneak attack or higher dodge cap. Anything.
Shadow Smoke - useless right now. It would be better to clickie with 2 min cooldown for stacking +2 assassinate dc for 15 secs or sth.
Ghostly Essense - if it stacks with blur then ok. If not - then make it stack.
Winter Favored - move it to tier 1 or 2. Its not like its THAT better than 1 sneak attack die, Actually worse - because some mobs are immune or have high resistance to cold. And it also have to be sneak attack so... Its worse.
Nothing is hidden - remove the penalty.

I just miss rogue thingies - like higher dodge cap, assassinate and some defense stuff like physical resostance or heal amp.
AC doesnt really count cause lets be honest - AC is pretty much useless right now. At Epic Elites I see no differences between having 20-30 AC vs 70-80 AC. No difference at all.

Also - give us our 1 feat and skill points from human.
Then it would be actually worth considering - heal amp and more stat increase vs more sneak attack, jaunt and little higher assassinate DC.


Spiked Chain Attack - I dont know what to do with it. Its great but it needs to drop agro from you at end. Other way using it in any elite dungeon =+75% chances of death.


Dont get the impression I dont like the Shadar-Kai. The other way actually - Im waiting at 25 lvl right now at live to Epic TR into one when its possible. If itll be worth it.
Right now as it is human rogue vs shadar kai - human wins.

[myliftkk]

Someone mentioned the Spike Chain attack causing damage to them in a public area, but does anyone know if this chain creates friendly fire inside the Wheloon Prison/Quests? I'm almost certain the one time I was grouped with another Shadar-Kai when they used the chain (I did not take those enhancements) it damaged my toon.

[MrMime]

All Emos/Goths etc are NOT PUNKS!
Seriously - Go to a Rock Concert/Festival and look for Shaved Hair Styles like Mohawks and the Hair on one side only - These are a Tiny Minority!

I realise that every single song/band has to be compartmentalised to a specific GENRE!
I realise that Mods are supposed to hate Rockers {I like The Small Faces AND Status Quo thank you very much!}
I realise that Blur Fans and Oasis Fans aren't supposed to get along {guess what I BOUGHT both Country House AND Roll With It as Singles!}
I realise that admitting to liking The Black Album BUT disliking Metallica's earlier stuff is akin to starting World III!
BUT
Is this really something that should be pushed by Turbine?
Are we really going to start having players branded as Emo's simply for playing a Shadar-Kai?
We're finally getting to the point where we're able to play FEMALE Characters WITHOUT Being instantly branded as ...... {you know very well}.

When My Chemical Romance first appeared on the scene they were INSTANTLY Branded Emo Band Uncool to like!
Guess what - Their Music's actually pretty d@rn good!


ONLY ONE Look for Eyes is BAD too!

P.S. There is a Shadar Kai Witch in the Movie Dungeons & Dragons: The Book of Vile Darkness - And She DOES NOT have a Shaved Hair Style!



I was particularly annoyed by the lack of choices in Bladeforged Faces {Spikes, Spikes and MORE Spikes!} - In fact there's only ONE Usable choice for me {Guess What = NO Spikes!}.

Come on Devs - DDO is far in advance of the other MMO's I've tried to play {LotRo, Allods, SW:TOR, Neverwinter} when it comes to character customization and Graphics!
IN FACT: Whenever I read/hear someone say how great the graphics are in new games like SW:TOR and Neverwinter I'm ASTONISHED!
Cos to me they're not in the same league as DDOs!

More choices for Character Customization is good!
LESS IS BAD!
Get it?



Soooo , no one called them punk and in ur deffence of this race as not being emo, U go all EMO about it O_o. how Iconicly Ironic XD. I think some one is getting way to EMO about their game time.

[RowanNightShade]

Imo, a few more options for hairstyles, hair colors, eye color, eye shape, tattoos and piercings would be nice.

[Arcanghakhyorsarthel]

http://i.imgur.com/HNIOpc0.jpg

This is what the Shadar-Kai should look like. They are Fey...otherworldly, scare the bejeebers out of you fey.

They should be sinister, lanky, and damnright scary...not humans with piercings and facial tats....

My opinion.

[hi_sa1nt]

http://i.imgur.com/HNIOpc0.jpg

This is what the Shadar-Kai should look like. They are Fey...otherworldly, scare the bejeebers out of you fey.

They should be sinister, lanky, and damnright scary...not humans with piercings and facial tats....

My opinion.

Along with that pic... they should also be vampires?

[ComicRelief]

Someone mentioned the Spike Chain attack causing damage to them in a public area, but does anyone know if this chain creates friendly fire inside the Wheloon Prison/Quests? I'm almost certain the one time I was grouped with another Shadar-Kai when they used the chain (I did not take those enhancements) it damaged my toon.

One of the Devs stated that "friendly fire" damage in public areas was only during beta (they spawned a bunch of high CR mobs in instance 1 of Wheloon Harbor during the first closed beta event). It should *not* prodice "firendly fire" damage when it goes live.

...that's "should not".
;)

[Postumus]

Because in every single thing that they've ever had published about them, pictures or otherwise, it states or shows numerous piercings and/or ritualistic scarring, pebbling, or painful-looking tattoos. Seriously, they use pain as a focus.

So they're like Reavers?

[Leclaire1]

Rolled up one of these following the pure rogue assassin route. I then ran Disciples of Shadow on hard solo with the starter gear provided. Was pretty fun. The enhancements were useful and appropriate to the class. I do think as others have said there needs to be more customization of appearance, and there definitely needs to be a more interesting beginning and an actual story to go with the character. Id run one of these on live, and probably enjoy experimenting with multiclass options.

[Galster]

They said this is a work in progress but what are they planning? Can we get an outline to what the Devs are thinking for this new pathline?

[IronClan]

http://i.imgur.com/HNIOpc0.jpg.

Wow someone is going to spend 50 or 60 years of their lives regretting the incredibly poor choices they made as a youth.

[LupusVai]

Wow someone is going to spend 50 or 60 years of their lives regretting the incredibly poor choices they made as a youth.

Lol, yep, that's going to look great on a sixty year old. Certainly puts some of the silly things I did when i was too young to care or know better into a less embarrassing light. ;-)

[Danaeyris]

I am also unable to lvl my iconic. I was hoping to be able to play it and see about getting it to play later when this goes live. :-(

[Vargouille]

I am also unable to lvl my iconic. I was hoping to be able to play it and see about getting it to play later when this goes live. :-(

You should be able to level the iconic, but the pre-built path isn't working right now.

If you tell Elminster that you want to make your own choices you should be able to level up.

[Johnstone]

So... Are the store bought hairstyles going to be made to work with Shadar-Kai? I used a Ponytail Mohawk (since I didn't want the crazy sticking up version that they get access to) and it ended up giving me the crazy poofy ponytail mohawk that is one of the default options. Hoping this will change when it goes live.

[Gwyxxx]

So... Are the store bought hairstyles going to be made to work with Shadar-Kai? I used a Ponytail Mohawk (since I didn't want the crazy sticking up version that they get access to) and it ended up giving me the crazy poofy ponytail mohawk that is one of the default options. Hoping this will change when it goes live.

Ufff... i never buy things from store, but for a decent hairstyle on shadarkai I would do it.
Very very bad news...

[Failedlegend]

I'm very satisfied with Shadar-kai their incredibly thematic in everything their look, their enhancements, everything. My only complaint is they only have a few hairstyles...at least let us have the option to choose normal hbairstyles as well as the unique ones.

Normally I'd go through all the enhancements and break everything done..but yeah their great...use shadar-kai for an example of fantastic mixing of theme and function from now on :D

Oh wait one thing....is SA not applying on spiked chain WAI...also any chance you can add a section to the character sheet to record the amount of SA we have...thanks :D

[RavenStormclaw]

Rolled one of these up and went the assassin route. I did the first quest you get right after leveling an iconic. For comparison sakes I had just done this quest on a Morningl Lord I was testing. Compared to the morning lord I breezed thru the quest with these guys. I love them. They could use some more customization options. Their abilities are interesting. The spike chain is actually useful although it does attract a lot of attention. I would suggest adding some form of threat reduction with this attack as I can see, as others have said,, in an elite dungeon this could easily get you killed.

[Deathdefy]

I totally appreciate that Shadar-kai get loads of cool enhancements, but:
They suck at being assassins.

Drow are 3 int points better, Sun Elves will be 3 int points better (assuming they are freed from the Cleric level at some point), H-Elves are 1 int point better (assuming Int dilettante like Arti), and they are on par with humans.

Any chance of an enhancement somewhere in the tree that just says, "Shabam, +1 Assassinate DC", since that is allegedly their schtick. They'd still potentially be a DC behind drow and sun elves depending on everything else Int related.

If you truly wanted to win me over to these delightful weirdos, give up to +2 Assassinate DC somewhere to make them best in the game; not arguing for more int, since I don't think they're intended to be geniuses with the corresponding skill point increases.

To be honest, I'd be delighted if you made it require significant AP investment in the racial tree so I had an excuse to do so!

I'm aware that you could argue halflings would be left out by doing this.
1) Schmeh. Creepy little midgets that smell like cabbage.
2) They still have max dex and sneak attack damage which makes them the best dex based assassins (and shadow-dancing executioners). For characters interested in maxxing out assassinate DC, they're already off the list of candidates.

[Deathdefy]

Ahh okay.

I now see that on creation they are given a BtC Race Absolutely Restricted: Shadar-Kai Ring that gives "+2 Assassinate DC and Open Lock +13". I agree that alleviates Assassination DC concerns until 20, but it definitively (just checked multiple times) does not stack with epic Midnight's Greetings.

Again, I'd include an enhancement (or feat?) or something that gives that bonus in a stacking way, otherwise they're only the best assassins during heroic levels.

Sidenote: I don't really like the idea of an absolute race restricted item as an endgame solution, e.g. Epic Ring of the Runaway (providing either +4 Assassinate DC or +2 Insightful Assassinate DC that stacks with eMG), but I can't explain the aversion. Maybe that would be a good solution too.


EDIT: Also, does the default path really take Power Critical and WF: Piercing, but not Improved Critical? I mean I know it does, I'm querying whether that's bright.

[MartinusWyllt]

So...path does not take UMD. I found that funny.

[riskyraines]

Ok. So starting with first impression:

1. Character creation:
Stats - no int bonus? Im negatively suprised. It should be dex AND int. Not dex only.
Skills&feats - lost of human bonus feat and skill points - negatively suprised again.
Looks - its cool, but Id like lots more options. I tend to like red hairs. Id also like to be able to customize the eyes - if not the color, the shape at least. And way too little hair styles. But not bad.

2. Enhancements:
From rogue ones:
I am still dissapointed that for melee rogue its difficult to get scroll mastery. Change it please.
Also Bleed them out from Assassin tree is a pity - the attack itself is ok but the "bleeding" thing is like 5-10 dmg. Maybe good on 1-5 lvls. Later on - pity.

Shadar-kai:
Bottom:
Shadar-Kai Grit - should be +1 to all saves
Shadow Phase and Shadow Jaunt - Its amazing but...I see no use in having both - especially that now when one is used both go on timer.
Empowered Jaunt - good but Id prefer if I was the one to get incorporeality etc. after jaunt ends. Not my allies. Also I hope it stacks with blur.

Tier 1:
Spiked Chain Attack - its not bad BUT I guess it gives mass agro - so I see no fit for it for rogue. I mean - cool hitting all stuffs around and all but - most rogues dont do good with agro of bunch of mobs. It needs to remove agro somehow after the attack. Damage is medicore - great on 1-15 lvls. Not that good later on.
Others are pretty much useless I think. totally useless.
Tier 1 needs work.

Tier 2:
Improved Dodge - great one.
Ghostly Senses - good IF it stacks with displacement/blur. If not theres no point - most ppl will be blurred all the time when 20+.
Shadow Smoke - see no sense.
Guile - always good.

Tier 3:
Forcefull Chain - Id like to know what % of chances it is.
Other are not too bad, but I wouldnt really take them besides Guilde ofc.

Tier 4:
Whirling Chain - impossible to take. So no opinion.
Nothing is hidden - I think the -12 penalty is good for other races. Shadar-kai should get no penalty. Its a rogue after all.
Winter Favored - Honestly? Its not bad if it was lower. 1d6 damage for tier 4 is pretty bad.
Gloom Stalker - it looks good but: How much time it lasts after break of sneak? I dont exactly understand how it works. Would like explanation.


3. Starting gear.
Its ok. Id just like Possibility to choose kukris or daggers or staff or crossbow - because everyone uses different things. It should not be only 1 weapon.



Summing up:

I dont think right now Shadar-kai is good choice for rogue.

Compared to human:
+ jaunt - its really good and usefull. I love it.
+ looks - shadar-kai look amazing.
+ Gloom Stalker - it looks good. No idea how exactly it works but...
+ 2 more dex while starting
+ 2d6 sneak attack from enhancements
+ 3% dodge

- 1 feat (for rogue its a lot)
- 4 skills points every lvl
- 30% heal amp from enhancements
- Dont count me on
- 1 ability score up
- skill and damage boost
- stat bump while under boost

So human vs shadar-kai: For me human wins. Mainly due to feat and heal amp. Rogues have so many things to get on gear I have hard time fitting heal amp. Right now having less than 130% heal amp is not fun.
Also rogues are feat starved - 1 feat is a lot.
Also Im worried because Shadar Kai tier 1 is really ****** - right now I can take tier 2 avoiding tier 1 - but I guess it wont be like that in future.

Shadar Kai vs Halfling:
+ jaunt - its really good and usefull. I love it.
+ looks - shadar-kai look amazing.
+ Gloom Stalker - it looks good. No idea how exactly it works but...

- Nimble Reaction
- Heroic Companion
- 1d6 sneak attack
- Skillfull and Master thrower
- Halfling Agility (possible 5% dodge)
- 3 to all saving throws
- 1 dex

Here also - Im doubtfull that Shadar-Kai is better.

My sugestions:
Change useless enhancements in shadar kai like:
Shadar-Kai Grit - +3 to all saves instead of fort thing + rest how it is.
Student of Pain - 10/15/20 Physical Resistance instead.
Bold - exchange it for more sneak attack or higher dodge cap. Anything.
Shadow Smoke - useless right now. It would be better to clickie with 2 min cooldown for stacking +2 assassinate dc for 15 secs or sth.
Ghostly Essense - if it stacks with blur then ok. If not - then make it stack.
Winter Favored - move it to tier 1 or 2. Its not like its THAT better than 1 sneak attack die, Actually worse - because some mobs are immune or have high resistance to cold. And it also have to be sneak attack so... Its worse.
Nothing is hidden - remove the penalty.

I just miss rogue thingies - like higher dodge cap, assassinate and some defense stuff like physical resostance or heal amp.
AC doesnt really count cause lets be honest - AC is pretty much useless right now. At Epic Elites I see no differences between having 20-30 AC vs 70-80 AC. No difference at all.

Also - give us our 1 feat and skill points from human.
Then it would be actually worth considering - heal amp and more stat increase vs more sneak attack, jaunt and little higher assassinate DC.


Spiked Chain Attack - I dont know what to do with it. Its great but it needs to drop agro from you at end. Other way using it in any elite dungeon =+75% chances of death.


Dont get the impression I dont like the Shadar-Kai. The other way actually - Im waiting at 25 lvl right now at live to Epic TR into one when its possible. If itll be worth it.
Right now as it is human rogue vs shadar kai - human wins.

everything you say here is spot on...weak chain attack needs self heal abilty during chain attack. weak class drow/Halfling MUCH better choices

[IronClan]

Ahh okay.

I now see that on creation they are given a BtC Race Absolutely Restricted: Shadar-Kai Ring that gives "+2 Assassinate DC and Open Lock +13". I agree that alleviates Assassination DC concerns until 20, but it definitively (just checked multiple times) does not stack with epic Midnight's Greetings.


You farmed an eMNG already on a Shadar? Can I run epics with you? You're my hero! ;)

On Shadar: I am massively underwhelmed by the Jaunt cool down being so draconian... I get that Air Sorc's and FvS's are the only classes that can "fly" (which in DDO translates into a 3 second cooldown) but I really need to be able to use the rush forward/step/jaunt ability more than every 15 seconds, to enjoy it as an ability, instead of just being an occasional utility (like the Cannith boots).

Even the Quarterstaff "Vault" is more useful with its 15 second CD.

Give the phase ability a 30 second CD and de-couple it from Jaunt and let us Jaunt with a 10-12 CD or if you really must 15 second cool down...

Better yet let us have a enhancement 4th tier that costs 2 AP per, and makes it 8/7/6 cool down for those who love movement abilities (like me). the 6 AP cost is a lot to balance it out.

Honestly Shadar went from something I was going to roll up immediately to something I probably never will roll up, in the space of a 30 second cool down :) if it had been 15 I could maybe live with it (though the Q-staff vault is aggravating to incorporate into your movement style even at 15) 8 seconds would be my ideal maximum allowing for Monk, FvS and Air savant to still be the best.