Closed Beta / Enhancement Updates

[ProducerRowan]

Closed Beta will be launching at the end of this week (Lammania will close shortly to support that).

If you pre-ordered Shadowfell Conspiracy and registered your key in early to mid June, you can expect an email invitation soon. Invitations will continue for later rounds, with priority for VIPs.

Thank you for all the feedback during this enhancements preview! We will spend the Beta period focused on fixing bugs and improving the enhancement trees in general, but have two major changes already underway.

Favored Soul and Cleric: We will be replacing the "Protection" tree with a melee-focused "Warpriest" tree, likely in the first patch after expansion launch.

Sorcerer: Sorcerer will get a new, additional enhancements tree later in the year (likely U20).

I'll save the details for Vargouille or one of the other designers to dig into.

[Teh_Troll]

Warpriest sounds darned cool . . . can we haz moar details on the rest of the changes?

[AZgreentea]

Will the Lama forums be restricted to Beta users only, like it was with MotU?

[jalont]

Closed Beta will be launching at the end of this week (Lammania will close shortly to support that).

If you pre-ordered Shadowfell Conspiracy and registered your key in early to mid June, you can expect an email invitation soon. Invitations will continue for later rounds, with priority for VIPs.

Thank you for all the feedback during this enhancements preview! We will spend the Beta period focused on fixing bugs and improving the enhancement trees in general, but have two major changes already underway.

Favored Soul and Cleric: We will be replacing the "Protection" tree with a melee-focused "Warpriest" tree, likely in the first patch after expansion launch.

Sorcerer: Sorcerer will get a new, additional enhancements tree later in the year (likely U20).

I'll save the details for Vargouille or one of the other designers to dig into.

Very interesting. Thank you. I guess this is also an announcement that the new system WILL be going live with the expansion.

[Vellrad]

NDA of enhancement previev will surely increase expansion sales...

[rest]

Still sad there are not more racial PREs. I want a halfling assassin wizard, ******!

[Drwaz99]

Favored Soul and Cleric: We will be replacing the "Protection" tree with a melee-focused "Warpriest" tree, likely in the first patch after expansion launch.

Sorcerer: Sorcerer will get a new, additional enhancements tree later in the year (likely U20).

I'll save the details for Vargouille or one of the other designers to dig into.

We've heard all this before with prestige enhancements that never materialized. Why should we believe you now? This seems very much like a "calm the masses until they mostly forget with other new stuff".

[Teh_Troll]

We've heard all this before with prestige enhancements that never materialized. Why should we believe you now? This seems very much like a "calm the masses until they mostly forget with other new stuff".

Because he deserves the benefit of the doubt until he does something to lose it. Then it's torches-n-pitchforks time :cool:

It's looking like they can slap in new "PRE"s very easily now. I'm liking the potential we have here.

[ProducerRowan]

We've heard all this before with prestige enhancements that never materialized. Why should we believe you now? This seems very much like a "calm the masses until they mostly forget with other new stuff".

I wouldn't announce it if we didn't intend to build it.

The team wants to deliver this and I'm going to support them to do so.

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.

[oradafu]

I wouldn't announce it if we didn't intend to build it.

The team wants to deliver this and I'm going to support them to do so.

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.

Well, I'm still waiting for the following to be delivered, especially since multiclasses can use up to 6 trees, but I've yet to see any capstone to achieve anything close to what was stated here:


Ideally any capstone is at least as good as Evasion (if not better).

We understand some work may need to be done on individual abilities to achieve the proper balance.

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

Agreeing with Rest for the first time evar! I also want Racials fast tracked, this is ridiculous I have THREE YEAR OLD CHARACTERS that were designed with race PrE's at least somewhat in mind.

The race PrE's all already exist all you have to do is connect dwarf to Sacred derfender PrE, and increase the character level by a couple per tier. Tempest already exists: put a connector in the Drow racial tree to it and increase character level pre-requisits, Halfing: Assasin/Mechanic same deal, Elf is already set, Horc: frenzied. WF: bladesworn. Human and Helf can be worked out later due to high likelihood of busted combo's possible with their freedom of choice. but at least connect the ones that are no brainers.

[Teh_Troll]

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.

Sig quote, thank you.

[Drwaz99]

I wouldn't announce it if we didn't intend to build it.

The team wants to deliver this and I'm going to support them to do so.

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.

Fair enough. But for the sake of disclosure: You (Turbine branch of DDO, not you personally) have a extensive history of under delivering/over promising on things. I realize certain members Turbine and members of the community do not see things this way - but many, many of us here do.

Thanks for the update. I (skeptically) ;) look forward to seeing what's in store.

[SirValentine]

Favored Soul and Cleric: We will be replacing the "Protection" tree with a melee-focused "Warpriest" tree, likely in the first patch after expansion launch.


Please, NO! Can't you simply ADD a Warpriest Tree, without removing Protection?

[Charononus]

I wouldn't announce it if we didn't intend to build it.

The team wants to deliver this and I'm going to support them to do so.

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.

My two cents on this is that you promised never to wipe ed xp on what I will give to you as heroic tr, the initial epic tr proposal violated this and you guys were planing on failing that delivery. The ep, I don't like, but would live with, this however is probably the biggest fail of a decision you've announced lately. (you being turbine) If you want to retain players you should really pass out some information about how you are not going to go thru with that horrible idea.

[darksol23]

I wouldn't announce it if we didn't intend to build it.

The team wants to deliver this and I'm going to support them to do so.

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.

No personal offense intended... But Turbine does get judged on delivery... And so far Turbine isn't passing... Two years ago a melee FvS PrE was in the works and a teaser was posted. No one likes being teased for two years:


This is some of the early work I had done for this one (very subject to change):

Favored Soul Divine Avenger I (Sovereign Host)
Prereqs: Level 6 Favored Soul, Favored by the Sovereign Host, Favored Soul Attack Boost II, Favored Soul Charisma I, and any of the following: Power Attack or Two Weapon Fighting.
Cost: 4 AP
Benefit: Everything the gods need to say to your enemies can be said with your weapon. When wielding a longsword in your right hand you are treated as if you have a fighter’s base attack bonus. You also gain the ability to swear an oath of enmity against a foe, vowing to destroy them in the name of your deity.

Oath of Enmity
Benefit: You mark an opponent as your chosen foe with a righteous smite. This attack gains twice your Charisma modifier to your attack roll and a damage bonus based on your Favored Soul level. Whether or not the attack hits, for the next five minutes, each time you critically hit your chosen enemy <SOMETHING AWESOME HAPPENS - oath mechanics are still very much in development, and this is just a hint> for a short period of time. (This bonus stacks up to ten times.) Your Oath of Enmity recharges after five minutes, or upon the death of your chosen foe.

Repeat for other deities, replacing "favored by" as appropriate.

Lord of Blades accepts any of the following: Improved Fortification, Power Attack, or Two Handed Fighting.

Silver Flame accepts any of the following: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, or Zen Archery, and instead of a melee smite as their Oath, gets a ranged attack, and their Oath mechanic was a little bit different (and wasn't working properly at all :)).

Granted this was a developer and not a producer, so I'm hoping your words have more weight... But honestly Turbine's history on "delivery" for things that are coming "soon" is pretty poor... No offense intended to any individuals, but overall I think of Turbine as an old fashioned ice cream truck. Lots of noise and hype before it arrives, but then it sometimes turns the other way and never makes it to you, or it arrives and everything is melted... But on some days **** that ice cream sandwich just hits the spot so each time you hear it you wait out your fate.

I really love the concept of DDO and the game, but I hate all the "soon" and half-baked stuff... I can haz ice cream sandwich?

[Gratch]

Great news all around. Though I don't expect the enhancements to be perfect or perfectly balanced on release; it will be nice to see enhancement forward progress after the ~2 year stagnation we've had recently while the devs prep the new system and repair the old system. At least your limited resources can focus on one enhancement system going forward.

On the WarPriest front. Same tree for FVS/Cleric or any chance for War Priest/Divine Avenger. I'm not expecting them to be radically different... kind of how there's a few thematic differences between Paladin and Fighter Defenders. Also include this tier5 enh: ANGELIC CONVERSION: (3 tiers) Each confirmed critical adds an Angelic Benevolence counter. At 10 counters a mass cure (light/med/serious depending on tier with a 5% chance of a mass heal) wounds is cast centered on the FVS. A stronger than cleric aura but it only goes off based on FVS attack frequency.

I see the big prizes for arting up the new assassin face (US only). Make sure to have some (international) prizes/contest of TP for those participating in Lama Beta bug finding/constructive input/etc. Some random/some most "informative" bugs/surveys filed.

[Qhualor]

as much as I would like to preview the enhancements, im still not buying the expansion until maybe after release. I don't like the idea of buying something without checking it out first. a few screenies and what people say with their personal experiences over at Lamma isn't good enough. ill have to do what checking out I can do when it hits live I guess.

[Deadlock]

Favored Soul and Cleric: We will be replacing the "Protection" tree with a melee-focused "Warpriest" tree, likely in the first patch after expansion launch.

Why remove player choice?

You've done the work already, so why not just leave Protection as it is?

Sure it means that Clerics will have up to 4 trees to choose from, but so what, if it encourages more clerics then that can't be a bad thing for most parties.

I'd like to think that there will be additional trees added in the coming years that will add even more diversity and build options, so why not stick two fingers up to the naysayers and start clerics off with 4 trees from the word go?

And if you can delivery racial prestige trees similiar to half-elves and elves with their Arcane Archer option, then you'll be delivering on an early expectation that hasn't had enough coverage recently.

[Charononus]

You've done the work already, so why not just leave Protection as it is?



Because no sane person would chose it, it would take up memory on the download servers, it would take up memory on the clients. It's so bad that even if it only takes up 1 kb that it's a waste.

[Atremus]

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.

DDO needs a healthy dose of Awesome injected into it. If MajMal trusts you, than I trust you.

[Gratch]

Because no sane person would chose it, it would take up memory on the download servers, it would take up memory on the clients. It's so bad that even if it only takes up 1 kb that it's a waste.

It's not crazy bad... but it's definitely a very single-tasker. Who knows some EE28 quest may REQUIRE some of the protection treebuffs to be used on a tank vs. INSANITY BOSS (Shield Other and all its buffs) though I'm not really sure the current levels warrant it even for that one situation. Plus those buffs aren't quite enough... and enhancements aren't as easily swapped as destinies. Though the rest of Protection can be mirrored (and exceeded) by an artificer with a few wands. Nevermind... it's crazybad. Just remove it and give clerics some other means to get their Divine Intervention in the Healing Domain.

[Coyopa]

I wouldn't announce it if we didn't intend to build it.

The team wants to deliver this and I'm going to support them to do so.

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.

Ummmmm, yea. I have nothing nice to say. So, I'll just keep myself from getting banned.

[HatsuharuZ]

Because no sane person would chose it, it would take up memory on the download servers, it would take up memory on the clients. It's so bad that even if it only takes up 1 kb that it's a waste.

There are a lot of problems with the enhancement tree (the implementation of the "wary" mechanic comes to mind, as does command as an SLA), but some of the first row enhancements aren't bad. But they should have given "shield other" to paladins as a spell.

Personally, I don't see any reason to ragequit the game. I can't wait to try out the expansion :D

[oradafu]

But they should have given "shield other" to paladins as a spell.


Yes, Shield Other along with several other spells should have been added to the game for Paladins a long time ago. Unfortunately, I expect that to happen the same time Great Smiting is added as a feat in the game, as in never.

[Charononus]

Personally, I don't see any reason to ragequit the game. I can't wait to try out the expansion :D

I consider myself more on break than anything and sadly it's not over the enhancement pass or the expansion per say as the epic tr changes were listed to be u20/21 maybe if I remember right. I'm not happy about the ep but if they'd come out and say that they're not going to delete my characters ed progress if I tr I'd probably play again.

[mikarddo]

Closed Beta will be launching at the end of this week (Lammania will close shortly to support that).

If you pre-ordered Shadowfell Conspiracy and registered your key in early to mid June, you can expect an email invitation soon. Invitations will continue for later rounds, with priority for VIPs.

Thank you for all the feedback during this enhancements preview! We will spend the Beta period focused on fixing bugs and improving the enhancement trees in general, but have two major changes already underway.

Favored Soul and Cleric: We will be replacing the "Protection" tree with a melee-focused "Warpriest" tree, likely in the first patch after expansion launch.

Sorcerer: Sorcerer will get a new, additional enhancements tree later in the year (likely U20).

I'll save the details for Vargouille or one of the other designers to dig into.

If you want to show that you have taken the feedback seriously and will actually deliver then both Warpriest and the sorc tree need to be included right away. Anything less than that is a defacto failure to deliver plain and simple and no vague promise of future additions will cover this failure. The enhancement beta was up for less than a week and you dont even intend to fix the most glaring things before launch?

Now show your worth and actually deliver... or be judged as you ask.

[Wizza]

Does this mean Sorcerer and FVS/Clerics will get their new PrE IN THE CLOSED BETA? Or will we seeing them after expansion launchs on live, in august? It's not really clear to me.

[ForumAccess]

Why remove player choice?

You've done the work already, so why not just leave Protection as it is?

Because the 'War Priest' tree will likely keep all of the terrible Shield enhancements from Protection and only change a few minor things in order to become the 'melee tree' that they did not seem to think should be there in the first place.

[Dandonk]

Well, this will be interesting to see.

[Lerincho]

Closed Beta will be launching at the end of this week (Lammania will close shortly to support that).

If you pre-ordered Shadowfell Conspiracy and registered your key in early to mid June, you can expect an email invitation soon. Invitations will continue for later rounds, with priority for VIPs.

Thank you for all the feedback during this enhancements preview! We will spend the Beta period focused on fixing bugs and improving the enhancement trees in general, but have two major changes already underway.

I'll save the details for Vargouille or one of the other designers to dig into.

Any change getting LESS awesomium running in the background in the near future? 6 running at a time eating up 18k memory tends to cause issues in the long run.

[nibel]

If you want to show that you have taken the feedback seriously and will actually deliver then both Warpriest and the sorc tree need to be included right away.

Because designing, coding, and testing two full enhancement tree is something that can easily be done in less than one week before the closed beta.

[Drwaz99]

Does this mean Sorcerer and FVS/Clerics will get their new PrE IN THE CLOSED BETA? Or will we seeing them after expansion launchs on live, in august? It's not really clear to me.

The way it read to me was:

FVS/Cerics: Replaced tree live ~1st patch after Xpac launch

Sorc: Late 2013 around the time of U20

Considering those are the two main ones I play.. :mad:

[OverlordOfRats]

Looking forward to a sneak peek at the new expansion.

A big THANK YOU for the Warpriest tree.

[Vargouille]

Here's some of our tentative thoughts on ways we are considering revamping the Protection Tree, gutting it, and then replacing it & turning it into Warpriest. Warpriest, like Protection, would still available to both Clerics and Warpriests, since we'd like melee to be a viable choice for both classes in the near future.

- Remove the "Shield Other" line.
- Replace or remove many or all of the SLAs.
- Remove Sacred Touch, Efficient Metamagic, and Trapfinding.
- Leave or adjust the defensive buffs.
- We are likely to rework many or all Core Enhancements.

Things we're considering for new enhancements which may or may not work out exactly in this manner:
- Add STR as an ability score choice.
- Add in a weapon damage line similar to some other melee DPS trees. This might be based your Deity's favored weapon type(s).
- Grant Haste to the Cleric spellbook.
- Grant Silver to your weapons.
- Add Implacable Foe as a capstone or tier 5 ability.
- Other new stuff we haven't decided on yet.

This is not set in stone. We encourage you to speak up on what you specifically liked in Protection if you want it kept going forward, or other ideas for what may be added to Warpriest. We do have some other ideas from the PnP version that we may explore as well.

Additionally, this doesn't mean that everything will go completely untouched. We've already done some internal planning for an AP costing pass, and Protection as-is is still likely to become much cheaper again (along with some cost adjustments to some other trees).


We are not as far into the planning for the upcoming Sorcerer tree, and at this point are still open to ideas for what kind of gameplay it should enable or address.

[Vellrad]

Because he deserves the benefit of the doubt until he does something to lose it.

He already had it, and lost it while working on LotRO.

[HatsuharuZ]

Here's some of our tentative thoughts on ways we are considering revamping the Protection Tree, gutting it, and then replacing it & turning it into Warpriest. Warpriest, like Protection, would still available to both Clerics and Warpriests, since we'd like melee to be a viable choice for both classes in the near future.

- Remove the "Shield Other" line.
- Replace or remove many or all of the SLAs.
- Remove Sacred Touch, Efficient Metamagic, and Trapfinding.
- Leave or adjust the defensive buffs.
- We are likely to rework many or all Core Enhancements.

Things we're considering for new enhancements which may or may not work out exactly in this manner:
- Add STR as an ability score choice.
- Add in a weapon damage line similar to some other melee DPS trees. This might be based your Deity's favored weapon type(s).
- Grant Haste to the Cleric spellbook.
- Grant Silver to your weapons.
- Add Implacable Foe as a capstone or tier 5 ability.
- Other new stuff we haven't decided on yet.

This is not set in stone. We encourage you to speak up on what you specifically liked in Protection if you want it kept going forward, or other ideas for what may be added to Warpriest. We do have some other ideas from the PnP version that we may explore as well.

Additionally, this doesn't mean that everything will go completely untouched. We've already done some internal planning for an AP costing pass, and Protection as-is is still likely to become much cheaper again (along with some cost adjustments to some other trees).


We are not as far into the planning for the upcoming Sorcerer tree, and at this point are still open to ideas for what kind of gameplay it should enable or address.

1) Remove "Wary" and anything to do with it.

2) Leave "Shield Other", but increase the duration somehow.

3) Sacred Touch is fine as it is, especially since on Lamm it procs on positive energy bursts :D

4) All of the SLAs should go, except for Blur

5) Leave the metamagics, or replace them with something similar to the % increases to AC from armor and/or shields that are in the stalwart defender tree.

6) I like being more durable, and bonuses to saves would be nice.

7) Add constitution to the list of available stat enhancements.


As for Warpriest:

I like what you listed~

Keep in mind that not all of the favored weapons granted by faith feats are desirable to players (especially longsword and bow), since even with the damage bonuses, we can still get more damage from most two-handed weapons. We need passive abilities/buffs that make the favored weapons (especially longswords and bows) desirable to use.

[dejafu]

You know, speaking as somebody who was originally insulted that FvS got a tree that was just a copy/paste of a cleric tree, I'm actually pretty cool with both classes getting Warpriest. It thematically fits for both of them, sounds a lot more useful/fun than Protection, and fits with the way that prestige classes work in 3.5 - that is to say, most prestige classes weren't restricted to specific base classes. At the very least, similar base classes (wizard/sorcerer, cleric/favored soul, fighter/ranger, etc.) could usually qualify for the same prestige classes.

So that got me to thinking... why not make a few more of the prestige trees available to multiple classes? It's a way to increase build flexibility without having to wait for new trees to be developed. Just make sure that each class has a minimum of one "unique" tree of their own, then explore the options. Let sorcerers take Archmage, fighters take Tempest, etc.

[oradafu]

We are not as far into the planning for the upcoming Sorcerer tree, and at this point are still open to ideas for what kind of gameplay it should enable or address.

I'm sure some people will hate this idea, but why not use the Pale Master as a template for the Skin of Acolyte. The Core Abilities would consist of the various Wear Fiend options (similar to the Shrouding in the PM tree): Skin of the Fey, Skin of the Demon, Skin of the Devil, Skin of the Celestial. For the actually enhancements, split them between things that buff the Acolyte prestige and things missing from the other trees (such as Impulse and Resonance enhancements).

[Drwaz99]

We are not as far into the planning for the upcoming Sorcerer tree, and at this point are still open to ideas for what kind of gameplay it should enable or address. <FALSE, your open to ideas that cement what you already have in mind>

If you disagree with my comment in the quote. Prove me, heck prove everyone here wrong. You have multiple threads with hundreds of legit, well thought out ideas on what to do with Sorcs in this pass and ones in the future. You honestly haven't listen to any of them. Some of the BETTER ideas go back 18 months!

So maybe instead of soliciting more ideas while the ones that are out there now get buried, how about showing us you do in fact listen (and not just say you do. Over and over and over again) and making things right for the pass coming up with the Xpac.

Because I will bet, if you don't, then come back asking for suggestions later - your just going to get a whole earful of what you are now but multiplied by 100.

It's comments like this that create huge skepticism within the player base.

[Cleanincubus]

Thank you for all the feedback during this enhancements preview! We will spend the Beta period focused on fixing bugs and improving the enhancement trees in general, but have two major changes already underway.

Favored Soul and Cleric: We will be replacing the "Protection" tree with a melee-focused "Warpriest" tree, likely in the first patch after expansion launch.

Sorcerer: Sorcerer will get a new, additional enhancements tree later in the year (likely U20).

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/419586-Introduction!-And-a-brief-Producer-s-Letter?p=5032297&viewfull=1#post5032297



Like all the other I have a few questions :

1) Do you have the power to actually stop things to happen when the feedback is bad ?
2) Do you have the power to actually force changes to previewed things when the feedback is bad ?
3) Do you have the power to delay a module because it's too buggy in the preview ?
4) Do you intend to work with us ( the players ) to make the game better for all, or are you going to just throw things our way even if we don't want them ? ( typical example enhancement update )


1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Usually
4. Yes

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418279-End-of-the-Week-with-Major-Mal?p=5017793&viewfull=1#post5017793

It is my hope that most of the functionality bugs will be addressed before we go out for the second peek...and a month is a good ammount of time to react, considering how everything else is going for the xpack at this point.

Business as usual...more of the same. "Ask for feedback, then do what we want anyways." "State that we didn't get enough feedback from players, as a reason for not doing it the right way the first time; even though we didn't change much between the 1st & 2nd preview, to deserve more feedback." "Send it out before it's done, and we'll finish it later."

At least this Producer showed his true colors in only 8 days, instead of leaving us all wondering for months if things were actually going to change.

[Systern]

Here's some of our tentative thoughts on ways we are considering revamping the Protection Tree, gutting it, and then replacing it & turning it into Warpriest. Warpriest, like Protection, would still available to both Clerics and Warpriests, since we'd like melee to be a viable choice for both classes in the near future.

- Remove the "Shield Other" line.
- Replace or remove many or all of the SLAs.
- Remove Sacred Touch, Efficient Metamagic, and Trapfinding.
- Leave or adjust the defensive buffs.
- We are likely to rework many or all Core Enhancements.

Things we're considering for new enhancements which may or may not work out exactly in this manner:
- Add STR as an ability score choice.
- Add in a weapon damage line similar to some other melee DPS trees. This might be based your Deity's favored weapon type(s).
- Grant Haste to the Cleric spellbook.
- Grant Silver to your weapons.
- Add Implacable Foe as a capstone or tier 5 ability.
- Other new stuff we haven't decided on yet.

This is not set in stone. We encourage you to speak up on what you specifically liked in Protection if you want it kept going forward, or other ideas for what may be added to Warpriest. We do have some other ideas from the PnP version that we may explore as well.

Additionally, this doesn't mean that everything will go completely untouched. We've already done some internal planning for an AP costing pass, and Protection as-is is still likely to become much cheaper again (along with some cost adjustments to some other trees).


We are not as far into the planning for the upcoming Sorcerer tree, and at this point are still open to ideas for what kind of gameplay it should enable or address.


Clerics and FvSs that can haste and blur.... So you're trying to make sure there's no reason to play a Bard at all?

Divine Casters should not get Arcane buffs, unless given by an arcane.

[nevigrofnu]

Clerics and FvSs that can haste and blur.... So you're trying to make sure there's no reason to play a Bard at all?

Divine Casters should not get Arcane buffs, unless given by an arcane.

agreed.


and fix some bugs would ya.

[Failedlegend]

Here's some of our tentative thoughts on ways we are considering revamping the Protection Tree, gutting it, and then replacing it & turning it into Warpriest. Warpriest, like Protection, would still available to both Clerics and Warpriests, since we'd like melee to be a viable choice for both classes in the near future.

- Remove the "Shield Other" line.
- Replace or remove many or all of the SLAs.
- Remove Sacred Touch, Efficient Metamagic, and Trapfinding.
- Leave or adjust the defensive buffs.
- We are likely to rework many or all Core Enhancements.

Things we're considering for new enhancements which may or may not work out exactly in this manner:
- Add STR as an ability score choice.
- Add in a weapon damage line similar to some other melee DPS trees. This might be based your Deity's favored weapon type(s).
- Grant Haste to the Cleric spellbook.
- Grant Silver to your weapons.
- Add Implacable Foe as a capstone or tier 5 ability.
- Other new stuff we haven't decided on yet.

This is not set in stone. We encourage you to speak up on what you specifically liked in Protection if you want it kept going forward, or other ideas for what may be added to Warpriest. We do have some other ideas from the PnP version that we may explore as well.

Additionally, this doesn't mean that everything will go completely untouched. We've already done some internal planning for an AP costing pass, and Protection as-is is still likely to become much cheaper again (along with some cost adjustments to some other trees).

All of that sounds cool and I know its being completely revamped but I'm hoping for a few clarifications




- Add STR as an ability score choice.

What do you mean by this? I'd assume you meant for weapon damage/attack but Str already does that.



- Add in a weapon damage line similar to some other melee DPS trees. This might be based your Deity's favored weapon type(s).

Based on diety...currently there's only a small handful of dietys

Lord of Blades - Greatsword
Silver Flame - Longbow
Soveirgn Host - Longsword
Undying Court - Scimitar
Vulkoor Court - Shortsword

That's an extremely limited list especially since only 2 of them are open to most races and none include any bludgeoning weapons which are fairly Iconic to Clerics. Any chance we can see the sovereign host expanded to its various gods to make the list a bit more flexible.

Arawei - Morningstar (woot 1-h bludgeoning weapon)
Aureon - Quarterstaff (might make for some nice Cleric/AcroRogue/Monk builds)
Balinor - Battle/Dwarven Axe
reasons)
Dol Dorn - Longsword (replaces the current Sovereign Host)
Kol Korran - Heavy Mace (woot another bludgeoning stick)
Onatar - Warhammer (the final beat stick in our collection)

Boldrei, Dol Arrah, Olladra - Their favored weapons do not exist in game so cannot be included as of yet

This would greatly expand the array of weapons a Cleric or FvS could use including the iconic bludgeoning stick....also since we've ventured into forgotten realms you could add some gods from there as well such as Tempus, Amanator (see your Morninglord Iconic), Lathander or Torm.





We are not as far into the planning for the upcoming Sorcerer tree, and at this point are still open to ideas for what kind of gameplay it should enable or address.

The Battlemage (aka Gish) has always been an iconic and well-loved DnD archetype and has seen a steady increase in popularity within DDO as well so I'd love to see a Sorceror prestige that focuses on this like Eldritch Knight or Dragon Disciple or Swiftblade (aka Haste Addict)...or a mix of all three...name it Dragon Disciple and give color/element (ie. White = Cold, Black = Acid) choice with the first core ability.

The tree could include some of this stuff.

- Ways to reduce or eliminate ASF either by ASF value or just by armor type...like Tier 1 could nullify ASF for Light Armor/Light Shields, Tier 3 Medium Armor and Large Shields, Tier 5 Heavy Armor and Tower Shield (along with the relevant proficiencies)

- As SLAs (allowing for the spell to be modified) you could have buffs that have more effect on your self (make them self-target only) like for example Haste lasts longer, it's Dodge%/Reflex and Attack bonus scales a bit, Tier 5 ability could make spells like Haste & Tenser's Transformation last until rest and become undispellable...another good one would be Master's Touch to allow for MArtial Proficiency's without Multi-classing

- Name it <Color> Dragon Disciple and have it like Savants where there's different versions for each element with slight differences.

- Natural Armor and PRR Increases to reflect your skin becoming dragon scale hard (probably have it increase for every core ability purchased)

- Bonuses to Str, Con and Charisma (aspect of the dragon or w/e)

- Breath Weapon (Element based on color choice) uses per day = Con mod

- Elemental Resistance (eventual immunity) based on color chosen

- Some immunities based on chosen color (similar to how palemaster gets undead-like immunities)

- Some sort of "Dragon Form" like the Palemasters forms...probably is where some of these abilities are accessed. No need to change healing type since most Dragons are healed by positive energy...although it would be a thematic capstone to be healed by your chosen color/element

- Sorc Level counts as 1/3, 1/2, a full fighter (tier allotment up to you guys) for purpose of feat pre-reqs.

- Spell Resistance

- Some sort of Dragon roar ability that triggers an intimidate (does trigger intim cooldown) and cause cause fear (shaken on save)

- Damage Reduction/ X, where X is based on color (ie. Black = Adamantine, White = Crystal)

- Toggle abilty that allows you to expend Mana per strike to deal extra damage of your colors element (or maybe just a Single Element buff similar to Artificer "Elemental Weapon" except it stacks with any spells of that nature...probably part of the "Dragon Form")

- Spellpower bonus based on color choice (probably per point spent in tree kind of thing...less than what Savant grants though)

- Unarmed gains x[W] and piercing to reflect growing claws. (amount of increase up to devs...make it nice enough to matter though)

This would make for a versatile Tree it could be unarmored, light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, Sword & Board, 2-Hander, TWF, Unarmed. (specific weapon group or type specifically avoided to make it flexible) that mixs martial and arcane prowess quite well to make a fun and unique Prestige Tree. The builds associated with this tree could be vastly different...Fighter/Sorcs, Sorc/Paladins, Monk/Sorcs, etc. (A Barbarian Occult Slayer/Sorceror Dragon Disciple would be funny) varying between Light splashes and deep multi-classing.

Thats all I can think of...Anyone else have more suggestions for a battlemage type PrE

[TGOskar]

There are a lot of problems with the enhancement tree (the implementation of the "wary" mechanic comes to mind, as does command as an SLA), but some of the first row enhancements aren't bad. But they should have given "shield other" to paladins as a spell.


Yes, Shield Other along with several other spells should have been added to the game for Paladins a long time ago.

I'm completely and wholeheartedly in agreement with these statements. Allow me to explain why.

Shield Other as presented on the tabletop version of the game (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm) (using the unofficial Hypertext version of the SRD, but Shield Other is considered "Open Game" content and thus it's fair to post) offers three things. One of them is a deflection bonus to AC, which is something you already gain from a Shield of Faith spell or an item of Protection +2. Another is the resistance bonus to saving throws, which is acquired easily from the Resistance spell or an item of Resistance +2. However, the third benefit is essentially game-changing: the caster takes half the final HP damage of the protected ally. No spell or ability in this version of the game offers something even SIMILAR to what this spell offers. To a Cleric, this might seem like odd, but for a Paladin, it completely changes their game. This is what I like to call the "damage redirection" school of tanking, where instead of drawing aggro or blocking their path so that they can only attack you, instead you direct their damage towards you regardless of your position. For a paladin, this becomes a MUST-HAVE 2nd level spell, even if their bonus to AC and saves becomes redundant (now, if the bonus to deflection and resistance increases with level? Even a Cleric will want this spell).

Shield Other as it currently stands on the Enhancement Preview (http://ddowiki.com/page/Protection_Enhancements_(Lamannia)) is a clear example of bad design. You have to spend 6 AP to gain a meager 15 PRR for a very small amount of time (you need a minimum of 14 ranks in Heal to make it a pseudo Action Boost), and 42 AP to draw the most from it (24 from the enhancements that directly apply to Shield Other, and 18 from the requirements to access the latter-level abilities). And what you get in exchange? 15 PRR, a 6 stacking energy resistance to the four main energy damage types (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire), +3 AC and Light Guard III. Of those, the stacking energy resistance and the Light Guard are nice, but the rest are shameful. For...what, 10? 15? MP, you get a much more worthwhile ability as a spell.

To put it in better terms: you spend 42 AP, more than half of the total AP you get, to gain something WORSE than...Stalwart Pact, maybe? Stalwart Pact is kinda cool; DR, bonus to saves and temp. Hit Points once your HP reaches half your maximum amount. However, how many people actually have Stalwart Pact on their list? I know I do, but I'm not sure just how many. If people aren't interested in taking Stalwart Pact as a spell, or as a "free" spell by spending 6 AP, what makes you think they'll spend more than half of your total AP allotment to gain something that's WORSE?


Because the 'War Priest' tree will likely keep all of the terrible Shield enhancements from Protection and only change a few minor things in order to become the 'melee tree' that they did not seem to think should be there in the first place.

This resumes all of my fears of the upcoming Warpriest tree. Right now, I feel like I'm getting my "Happy Whatever" (think Christmas gifts x2 plus Birthday gifts, all at once); hearing that Shield Other remains is like having that wonderful gift taken away, stepped upon, and then a round of maniacal laugh. To use TV Tropes terms, this seems so much like a Hope Spot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HopeSpot) it hurts.

Please, devs: subvert this.


1) Remove "Wary" and anything to do with it.

2) Leave "Shield Other", but increase the duration somehow.

3) Sacred Touch is fine as it is, especially since on Lamm it procs on positive energy bursts :D

4) All of the SLAs should go, except for Blur

5) Leave the metamagics, or replace them with something similar to the % increases to AC from armor and/or shields that are in the stalwart defender tree.

6) I like being more durable, and bonuses to saves would be nice.

7) Add constitution to the list of available stat enhancements.

Never really got the Wary ability, so I agree. It's too small of a bonus to actually matter. You basically need the Cautious ability to make it worthwhile, and that means about 18 AP, doesn't feel really fair. If it were, say, a Dodge bonus that applies over the maximum amount? Great, but it isn't. It's an AC bonus, whose effect has been sadly reduced to nothingness.
I think I mentioned above exactly WHY I loathe this ability, so no matter of fixing will make it work. Look at what standard I place the term "Shield Other" upon, and consider that, short of making it EXACTLY like the spell, nothing will ever compare; even then, it'll feel like an insult to Paladins worldwide. So, sadly, no.
On the other hand, I agree with Sacred Touch. It works exactly as intended; it's a saving grace after you get healed, boosting your survival as you regroup and recover.
Also agre with this. In fact, I believe Blur should be reduced to a Tier 2-3 ability. Stuff like Stoneskin could be the Tier 4 ability.
Not exactly agree or disagree; sorta ambivalent regarding this.
Makes perfect sense. Though, Varg's suggestion...


Keep in mind that not all of the favored weapons granted by faith feats are desirable to players (especially longsword and bow), since even with the damage bonuses, we can still get more damage from most two-handed weapons. We need passive abilities/buffs that make the favored weapons (especially longswords and bows) desirable to use.

This is really an issue that transcends faith enhancements. Barbs have no reason why NOT to wield a two-handed weapon, Longswords are inferior to Scimitars and Khopeshes, and no one in their sane judgment would choose to specialize in a throwing weapon. Making other weapons desirable should be part of a subsequent pass, perhaps even a weapon pass, where EVERY weapon has something worthwhile. That way, there's no need for buffs or passive abilities to make these weapons worthwhile.


Here's some of our tentative thoughts on ways we are considering revamping the Protection Tree, gutting it, and then replacing it & turning it into Warpriest. Warpriest, like Protection, would still available to both Clerics and Warpriests, since we'd like melee to be a viable choice for both classes in the near future.

- Remove the "Shield Other" line.
- Replace or remove many or all of the SLAs.
- Remove Sacred Touch, Efficient Metamagic, and Trapfinding.
- Leave or adjust the defensive buffs.
- We are likely to rework many or all Core Enhancements.

As I mentioned; I agree wholeheartedly with this idea. Please consider it, developers. Please.
Also agree (somewhat) with this, except nixing Blur. Blur is pretty awesome.
On the other hand, I don't agree with this. Sacred Touch works as intended (it's a buff to help you to survive); Efficient Metamagic could easily be part of the Divine Disciple tree, and Trapfinding...well, that one can be removed. It feels like an insult to the Rogue that the CLERIC can do a better work on finding traps than a Rogue does.
Wary should be reworked. Light Guard is pretty cool; I'd like to see it expand a bit further, and maybe apply it to other classes (*coughcoughPaladinscoughcoughSDtreecoughcough*)
Please do. Please. Sanctuary feels like a pseudo-Action Boost but with an excessive MP cost, and Positive Energy Shield makes no sense whatsoever. However, if there's something I'd love more than nothing, is to hear that Core enhancements will cost no AP. It feels like an insult that "Core" or "Innate" abilities cost so much...


Things we're considering for new enhancements which may or may not work out exactly in this manner:
- Add STR as an ability score choice.
- Add in a weapon damage line similar to some other melee DPS trees. This might be based your Deity's favored weapon type(s).
- Grant Haste to the Cleric spellbook.
- Grant Silver to your weapons.
- Add Implacable Foe as a capstone or tier 5 ability.
- Other new stuff we haven't decided on yet.

Wondering why you haven't done so already...
Eh...not sure. Ambivalent on this.
Oh, exactly like...the Prestige Class that the tree mimics. Though in the case of the PrC, Haste is given as a SLA rather than added to the spellbook.
Why Silver alone and not Cold Iron as well? Could be a fork choice, with the next tier granting the second version.
Might want to explain what you intend for Implacable Foe. The PrC version is cool, but might not work on this iteration of the game.
Having the Warpriest take the Rally ability from the Paladin? Adding a Fear Aura? Just don't add Inflame like on the PrC, because it really sucks bollocks.

[Danemoth]

Clerics and FvSs that can haste and blur.... So you're trying to make sure there's no reason to play a Bard at all?

Divine Casters should not get Arcane buffs, unless given by an arcane.

Warpriest is from the PnP and they actually could cast Haste. Maybe instead of clamoring to change what is being borrowed from the PnP, you should be clamoring to have Bard actually made effective? :P

[LilyOphelia]

Business as usual...more of the same. "Ask for feedback, then do what we want anyways." "State that we didn't get enough feedback from players, as a reason for not doing it the right way the first time; even though we didn't change much between the 1st & 2nd preview, to deserve more feedback." "Send it out before it's done, and we'll finish it later."

At least this Producer showed his true colors in only 8 days, instead of leaving us all wondering for months if things were actually going to change.

I think the problem is that many of us really like everything we're seeing. You assume that you have unanimous support for hating the changes, and you're very loud about it too. But lots of people do like the majority of the new changes.

I also feel that it's important to keep expectations reasonable. Sharing opinions and ideas is great. Making demands and then expecting those demands to suddenly change the course of established development probably isn't going to work out so well.

I for one have almost no complaints about anything that's incoming. I can't wait for the expansion!

[HatsuharuZ]

This is just me, Varg, but Savant Sorcerers are cannons that can do only one thing. What sorcs are missing is a PrE with more versatility. Adding in an Acolyte of the Skin tree could give them this, along with some extra durability.

According to the the site I got my info from, AoS gets:

- Increased AC
- Darkvision
- Fire and Ice resistance
- Ability to stun similar to Kukan-Do
- Ability to cause fear in others
- Increased constitution and dexterity
- Use of the Poison spell
- Ability to shoot lazer beams from your eyes!
- DR 10/good

It's not hard to imagine ways to keep true to the theme of the PrC when making it into a PrE tree:

- Increased AC and HP
- Increased spot/search/listen
- Fire and Ice resistance
- SLAs involving fear, charm and fire spells
- Increased DCs for enchantment, evocation, illusion and/or necromancy spells.
- Increased Spell Pen
- DR 10/Good (probably for the capstone or a tier 5 ability)

Also, something similar to PM undead shrouds could be arranged.
Example:
Essence of the Succubus: -2 Con, +2 Cha and +1 to enchantment and illusion DCs

Essence of the Hezrou: -4 Cha and Int, +4 Con and +2[W] unarmed damage.

[Delacroix21]

I really like how you and the rest of the DDO staff are engaging with the community so much lately, it has really renewed my interest in DDO enough to just buy $400usd in turbine points! Love the new war priest tree, please add some special "attacks" in the tree as well to make the combat more engaging as well.


Can we please get every race a racial tree at launch?


Even if WF juggernaught is not finished can we just give them a different class tree until then? It's been 3.5 years of only elves and half elves having a racial tree. Other races could use 1 to. :)

[ForumAccess]

Here's some of our tentative thoughts on ways we are considering revamping the Protection Tree, gutting it, and then replacing it & turning it into Warpriest. Warpriest, like Protection, would still available to both Clerics and Warpriests, since we'd like melee to be a viable choice for both classes in the near future.

I understand that time is growing short, but even if it means waiting a few months it would kind of be nice to have separate trees, since they are separate classes. Just like the Savant PrE has a different focus than the Archmage or Pale Master, it seems like there should be something more to define Clerics from Favored Souls than what stat they use for Spell Points, and Spell Points from items. For example, a 'tanky melee DPS' Warpriest tree for Clerics, with their heavy armor. And for Favored Souls, who only get medium armor, an all out high damage melee DPS PrE with some melee-driven debuffs as was previewed for Divine Avengers two years ago.


This is not set in stone. We encourage you to speak up on what you specifically liked in Protection if you want it kept going forward, or other ideas for what may be added to Warpriest. We do have some other ideas from the PnP version that we may explore as well.
I am very glad to see the largely ineffective and extremely costly Shield Other lines go. When I imagine a D&D Warpriest, I see a fortress of armor rushing headlong into their foes with a massive weapon ready to deliver their God's message for them. Party buffs. Defense. And Personal DPS, in that order. To keep them from being a 'splash X AP here to get these SLAs' these effects could be done with click-attacks. Like a 30 second cooldown melee attack that gives some kind of +W to damage and all allies in range a Haste effect for a short time. Temporary Spell Points gained from using the Deity's favored weapon, letting them heal and buff via spells more, though at a reduced proficiency (.5 Spell Power per point spent?). And a large amount of increased damage from the Deity's Favored Weapon is really needed to make it worth while to be in there meleeing. The Faith weapons are generally not the most effective weapons available, so giving them a larger than normal boost does not seem out of line. And there really needs to be enough personal damage buffs available for someone who does not have any desire to use their Faith weapon to spend points in the tree as well.

One of the most limiting things about making a Melee focused Cleric or Favored Soul currently is the lack of feats. To that end, perhaps some of them could be simulated by the Enhancements? A Tier Four Enhancement that requires the base TWF/THF/PointBlankShot feat, and then a Tier 5 one that are both very expensive and offer the same benefit as the second and third feats in the chain? I am not certain exactly how it would be best to implement this in the game engine, but it seems like they would need to be mutually exclusive with the actual feats.

EDIT: Thinking about it, some Epic Destiny options grant feats. You could even make it so that the level 3, 6, and 12 Core Abilities are a selection of the 3 lines of combat feats, letting the Warpriest qualify for their benefits without meeting stat requirements as Rangers do. This way they could invest their normal feet slots into the other Melee options available, or into Empowered Healing and Quicken and such so that they are not entirely ineffective healers. Although, this may make 3 and 6 level splashes too powerful.


We are not as far into the planning for the upcoming Sorcerer tree, and at this point are still open to ideas for what kind of gameplay it should enable or address.
First and foremost, it really needs to have Wand and Scroll Mastery, and Force and Repair options. That above anything else.

Years back, Sorcerers were not really regarded so much as 'Only Nukers'. In fact, people played very effective 'charm' based Sorcerers. It was only with the addition of PrEs that the style of play was entirely killed off. I do not know how much community support there would be for it, but I think that it would be interesting to see a 'charm' type Sorcerer make a comeback. I imagine that it would not be very well received, though, unless it was able to actually operate on an Epic Elite field.

[Glenalth]

Here's some of our tentative thoughts on ways we are considering revamping the Protection Tree, gutting it, and then replacing it & turning it into Warpriest. Warpriest, like Protection, would still available to both Clerics and Warpriests, since we'd like melee to be a viable choice for both classes in the near future.

- Remove the "Shield Other" line.
- Replace or remove many or all of the SLAs.
- Remove Sacred Touch, Efficient Metamagic, and Trapfinding.
- Leave or adjust the defensive buffs.
- We are likely to rework many or all Core Enhancements.

Things we're considering for new enhancements which may or may not work out exactly in this manner:
- Add STR as an ability score choice.
- Add in a weapon damage line similar to some other melee DPS trees. This might be based your Deity's favored weapon type(s).
- Grant Haste to the Cleric spellbook.
- Grant Silver to your weapons.
- Add Implacable Foe as a capstone or tier 5 ability.
- Other new stuff we haven't decided on yet.

This is not set in stone. We encourage you to speak up on what you specifically liked in Protection if you want it kept going forward, or other ideas for what may be added to Warpriest. We do have some other ideas from the PnP version that we may explore as well.

Additionally, this doesn't mean that everything will go completely untouched. We've already done some internal planning for an AP costing pass, and Protection as-is is still likely to become much cheaper again (along with some cost adjustments to some other trees).


We are not as far into the planning for the upcoming Sorcerer tree, and at this point are still open to ideas for what kind of gameplay it should enable or address.

Or...

Leave protection domain basically the same with some tweaks to the numbers to make it situationally useful. Possibly add some sort of threat gen granting ability to the shield other line. Many people won't want it, and they don't have to spend a single point in it.

Then add this Warpriest or War Domain or whatever it ends up being as a new enhancement panel.

[oradafu]

One of the most limiting things about making a Melee focused Cleric or Favored Soul currently is the lack of feats. To that end, perhaps some of them could be simulated by the Enhancements? One that requires the base TWF/THF/PointBlankShot feat, and then has two expensive ranks that give benefits similar to what those further down the feat chain offer? I am not certain exactly how it would be best to implement this in the game engine, but it seems like they would need to be mutually exclusive with the actual feats.

EDIT: Thinking about it, some Epic Destiny options grant feats. You could even make it so that the level 3, 6, and 12 Core Abilities are a selection of the 3 lines of combat feats, letting the Warpriest qualify for their benefits without meeting stat requirements as Rangers do. This way they could invest their normal feet slots into the other Melee options available, or into Empowered Healing and Quicken and such so that they are not entirely ineffective healers. Although, this may make 3 and 6 level splashes too powerful.


I'm going to have to completely disagree with this idea.

First, melee clerics and FvS are no more feat starved than Paladins, which is a melee class.

Second, giving those two classes a way to bypass combat feat via enhancements would be a slap to Paladins in a major way, in my opinion. It would push Paladins further down on the DPS ladder. If you don't believe this, look at the enhancements that Paladins have because all the focused melee damage is aimed at a subset of a subset. Sure, there's the Divine Might enhancement, but that will most likely be in the Warpriest tree anyway. There's also Divine Sacrifice, that gives Light damage. But all other DPS enhancements for Paladins gives a small bit of damage to Evil and moderate damage to either Undead or Evil Outsiders.

What you are asking for would put Clerics and FvS on par melee wise with Paladins except against one of those two subsets. So I think what you are asking is way too much as things currently stand, since there's been nothing showing that the Devs are willing to improve paladin DPS.

[ForumAccess]

What you are asking for would put Clerics and FvS on par melee wise with Paladins except against one of those two subsets.

This is more of a problem with more than a small splash of Paladin still generally being a terrible idea. Paladins are screwed, but that isn't justification to make anyone else screwed as well.

[Cleanincubus]

I think the problem is that many of us really like everything we're seeing. You assume that you have unanimous support for hating the changes, and you're very loud about it too. But lots of people do like the majority of the new changes.

I also feel that it's important to keep expectations reasonable. Sharing opinions and ideas is great. Making demands and then expecting those demands to suddenly change the course of established development probably isn't going to work out so well.

I for one have almost no complaints about anything that's incoming. I can't wait for the expansion!

So you're fine with receiving an entire new Enhancement system, that didn't "need" to be changed, that is less complete than what is currently on Live? You're fine with the Devs making changes and adding new content that isn't complete at release, rather than holding off for a while, while player continue to test things on the test & preview servers?

This post has nothing to do with the changes I'd like to see made, other wise I certainly would have posted them. I've already made posts in other threads where that was the specific topic. I've already filed out multiple surveys where I stated my opinions. this has to do with Turbine pushing things on the community before they are complete. How's the Cannith crafting system? Last I knew the system has been all but abandoned, after multiple updates that were asked for at the beginning (some that haven't been fulfilled). How is upgrading the Voice of the Master coming along, where players paid real money, and chose to have that specific item upgraded? How is the FvS Prestige class coming along that was promised a long time ago? How about posts by Devs like this: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/415369-The-Official-Sorcerer-Enhancements-Discussion-Thread!?p=5034038&viewfull=1#post5034038 Where players are told to do hard numbers for the Devs, do it, are then ignored, and then later told that any changes will be made in 2-3 updates from now?

If you're cool with being ignored as a community and having content & changes pushed on to you well before they are close to being done, then that's cool for you. I'm not going to bash you, or be an internet troll. Your opinion is your opinion, and my opinion is my opinion. You've stated that you're happy with the changes, and now I've stated that I'm not happy until the changes are done properly & at the very least done fully before they are released. That's it.

[mezzorco]

As for Warpriest, I would like to see Divine Might.

[oradafu]

This is more of a problem with more than a small splash of Paladin still generally being a terrible idea. Paladins are screwed, but that isn't justification to make anyone else screwed as well.

If you want me to make things a bit more simple for you, there's nothing that will prevent what you want to do with a melee Cleric and FvS that a small splash of Monk or Fighter won't do.

So just because a Cleric and FvS can't fit in every TWF or THF feat, melee tactical feat and caster feat that you'd like, it shouldn't justify making the class as powerful as a paladin melee-wise when Clerics and FvS have more offensive and healing options than a Paladin.

[Natashaelle]

Here's some of our tentative thoughts on ways we are considering revamping the Protection Tree, gutting it, and then replacing it & turning it into Warpriest. Warpriest, like Protection, would still available to both Clerics and Warpriests, since we'd like melee to be a viable choice for both classes in the near future.

- Remove the "Shield Other" line.
- Replace or remove many or all of the SLAs.
- Remove Sacred Touch, Efficient Metamagic, and Trapfinding.
- Leave or adjust the defensive buffs.
- We are likely to rework many or all Core Enhancements.

Things we're considering for new enhancements which may or may not work out exactly in this manner:
- Add STR as an ability score choice.
- Add in a weapon damage line similar to some other melee DPS trees. This might be based your Deity's favored weapon type(s).
- Grant Haste to the Cleric spellbook.
- Grant Silver to your weapons.
- Add Implacable Foe as a capstone or tier 5 ability.
- Other new stuff we haven't decided on yet.

This is not set in stone. We encourage you to speak up on what you specifically liked in Protection if you want it kept going forward, or other ideas for what may be added to Warpriest. We do have some other ideas from the PnP version that we may explore as well.

Additionally, this doesn't mean that everything will go completely untouched. We've already done some internal planning for an AP costing pass, and Protection as-is is still likely to become much cheaper again (along with some cost adjustments to some other trees).


We are not as far into the planning for the upcoming Sorcerer tree, and at this point are still open to ideas for what kind of gameplay it should enable or address.

Looks good so far, but --

Missing : 1:1 BAB (mainly for attack speed, not the + to hit itself)

Some kind of aura power would be good -- possibly a lesser version of radiant servant healing or a less powerful paladin-like aura ?

A Concentration bonus would be good

Make the capstone interesting, but not vital (possibly some kind of powerful mêlée-triggered mass healing guard or vorpal strike, as a reward for staying pure ?) -- mêlée-focused Battle Clerics frequently multiclass ; the vital stuff should be at the tier 5, including possibly the 1:1 BAB

Add alignment DR bypass as well as the silver, making it metalline rather than silver for True Neutrals, and add 1d6 axiomatic damage for lawful neutral (only), 1d6 good damage for neutral good (only), 1d6 anarchic for chaotic neutral (only), 1d6 evil for neutral evil (only) ?

Maybe provide duration or effect bonuses for Prayer, Recitation, Divine Favour, and Divine Power ?

[Wizza]

Please stop suggesting a charm based Sorcerer. Everyone in your group will hate you.


Acolyte of the Skin I:

You replace your own skin with a demon's one. You gain IMMUNITY to poision, +2 Con, 10 Fire Resistance, +2 Dodge and 2 Cold/Electric/Acid/Sonic Resistance. You gain +1 Max caster level and caster level to your fire spells. You summon the essence of a demon and are now able to cast X Spell as SLA.


X Spell: You emanate two rays from your eyes on one target. Each of them deals 1d3 per caster level, up to a maximum 15d3 at caster level 15. Cooldown 6 seconds.


Acolyte of the Skin II:

An acolyte’s skin and its wearer have grown more comfortable together, as if they had never been separate. You gain IMMUNITY to Disease, +2 Con (+4 total), 10 Fire resistance (+20 total), another +2 Dodge and 2 Cold/Electric/Acid/Sonic Resistance (+4 total). You gain +1 Max caster level and caster level to your fire spells. You are now able to cast THIS SPELL as SLA.


THIS SPELL: You roar like you never had in your whole life. You deal a 6d6 fire damage and your opponents become Shaken and Helpless for 2 seconds. This affects everything, including Undeads and Constructs. DC: 15 + Half character level + Cha Modifier + Fear based effects enhancements (the one in Draconic for example). AoE same as Haste and Daunting Roar. Cooldown 10 seconds.


Acolyte of the Skin III:

An acolyte's skin and its wearer are now the same entity. You gain Immunity to Blindness, +2 Con (+6 total), 10 Fire resistance (+30 total), +2 Dodge (+6 Dodge), +2 Cold/Electric/Acid/Sonic Resistance. You gain +1 Max caster level and caster level to your fire spells. Only the final death can separate you two. You also gain 25 DR/- . Your affinity with Fire is now at the maximum level. You also gain 20 Fire Spell power. You are now able to cast THAT SPELL as Sla.


THAT SPELL: You create a powerful ball of demoniac fire with your mouth. On impact, the explosion deals 1d3+1 fire damage per caster level, up to a maximum of 30d3+30 at Caster Level 30. This spell is too powerful for you and you need some time to heal your wounds. You suffer a -2 Con penalty lasting 6 seconds. AoE same as Delayed Blast Fireball. Cooldown 8 seconds.


To summarize, you will have:

30 Fire Resistance,
6 Dodge,
6 Element resistance
3 MCL/CL to Fire spells
Immunity to Blindess/Poision/Disease
+6 Con
25 DR/-
+20 Fire Spell power.

And the 3 SLAs that I've just made up.

As you can see. this PrE is more defensive than offensive so most of these bonuses are written to achieve that goal. This PrE is for more survavibility hence why the Stun SLAs at tier two. However, being a demon, I feel also that we wouldn't be a real demon without a powerful offensive SLA. Being kinda powerful, the cooldown at tier 3 is 8 seconds, making it not really spammable. Can be increased to 10 seconds but then it would have the same cooldown as the stun.

The Tier 1 SLA is basically a Lightning bolt of fire but single target, so worse than it in the end.
The Tier 3 is an enhanced Delayed Blast Fireball, capped at caster level 30. You also suffer a -2 Con when you cast it. Being powerful has some consequences.


I didn't include a summon at tier 3 because Turbine just can't make them useful. It would just be a waste of time and a waste of PrE.

[dlsidhe]

Keep in mind that not all of the favored weapons granted by faith feats are desirable to players (especially longsword and bow), since even with the damage bonuses, we can still get more damage from most two-handed weapons. We need passive abilities/buffs that make the favored weapons (especially longswords and bows) desirable to use.

I'd like to see some of the original plans for the FvS melee tree make it into Warpriest, such as the "On vorpal (something awesome happens)" when using your favored weapon. Maybe some kind of AoE party buff proc or a potent debuff; along the lines of a mass cure moderate/mass panacea for Sovereign Host, 6 seconds of 10% dodge and fortification bypass for Vulkoor, +10% damage dealt for the Silver Flame (or temporary removal of DR, like granted by the flame in Spinner), etc.

Also, pull over the ability to use your deity's weapon as a spellcasting instrument from AoV. And maybe (just maybe) buff the faith line feats (Child of x, etc.) to make them more attractive as an option for Clerics and Paladins. +1 to hit and damage isn't what it once was.

[mezzorco]

Try to merge pnp Warpriest with Hospitaler, both are in Complete Divine.

What I mean is:
- give them competence with martial weapons, this can be done just for a weapon of choice via core enhancements
- give them hit-damage enhancement line with said weapon of choice
- add an AC enhancement, that provides you competence with tower shields at 3/3
- add a fort save + concentration enhancement
- possibly give them some feats via enhancements, representing hospitaler bonus feats (thinking of THF/TWF line depending on your weapon of choice, alternatively PA-Cleave-GCleave)
- give them warpriest SLA: mainly cure light mass, haste, heal mass
- possibly add some spells to spellbook representing warpriest bonus domain
- increase spellpower, just for spells tied with war or alignment
- possibly give war and aligned spells strenght based DC, or even remove saves from them (alternatively consider strenght based SLAs)
- implacable foe in tier 5
- possibly permanent divine power as capstone, but make STR bonus stack (only for pure clerics/FvS)

[Huldrekall]

We are not as far into the planning for the upcoming Sorcerer tree, and at this point are still open to ideas for what kind of gameplay it should enable or address.

Battlemage - my suggestions (very rough concept):
core - l.a., m.a., h.a. proficency
- simple w. prof. + basic martial w.prof. (swords, axes,...)
- bonus on HP, PRR, AC
- maybe final core +1W on proficient weapons, DR5/magic?

tree - bonus on intimidate, concentration
- + str/con
- + universal spell CR %
- + DR bonus
- meta bonus
- s.penetration bonus
- ASF reduction
- + bonus SP/HP
- bonus on PRR (t5?)
- bonus evocation, conjur.
- some force field (like moving sphere of invulnerability or 100% dmg absorption for some time) or force nova (force dmg, knocking away, stuning?) as SLA T5

or maybe quarter staff bonus like henshin (my vision of battlemage is with battle staff :) )

[dlsidhe]

Keep in mind that not all of the favored weapons granted by faith feats are desirable to players (especially longsword and bow), since even with the damage bonuses, we can still get more damage from most two-handed weapons. We need passive abilities/buffs that make the favored weapons (especially longswords and bows) desirable to use.

I'd like to see some of the original plans for the FvS melee tree make it into Warpriest, such as the "On vorpal (something awesome happens)" when using your favored weapon. Maybe some kind of AoE party buff proc or a potent debuff; along the lines of a mass cure moderate/mass panacea for Sovereign Host, 6 seconds of 10% dodge and fortification bypass for Vulkoor, +10% damage dealt for the Silver Flame (or temporary removal of DR, like granted by the flame in Spinner), etc.

Also, pull over the ability to use your deity's weapon as a spellcasting instrument from AoV. And maybe (just maybe) buff the faith line feats (Child of x, etc.) to make them more attractive as an option for Clerics and Paladins. +1 to hit and damage isn't what it once was.

[Iriale]

Clerics and FvSs that can haste and blur.... So you're trying to make sure there's no reason to play a Bard at all?

Divine Casters should not get Arcane buffs, unless given by an arcane.
Agreed. Arcane spells in the cleric spellbook, not. Give to cleric spellbook the spells Shield other (2nd lev iconic cleric spell!), Align weapon (2nd lev iconic cleric spell!) , and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (5 lv spell, spell compendium 3.5, the cleric and his allies gain extra attack, +3 moral on attack rolls and damage rolls)

Please, arcane and divine magic MUST be different. Divines need their iconic spells and more damage. They don't need the arcane spells.

ah, the spell Holy aura is useless because resistance bouns don't stack with the more used items. Change resistance bonus to other (sacred?)

[Lauf]

Let me begin by saying thank you for hearing our cries for a warpriest tree. most appreciated.
I have played several warpriests in ddo, including 3 lives on my main. would be awesome to finally have that option built-in to the class.

As for the changes, I would like to see clerics/fvs no longer limited to "deity" weapons, as longswords/shortswords aren't very good, and longbows don't even qualify as melee.
greatsword is really the only valid melee weapon, and even that comes at the cost of being a warforged, which most clerics would like to avoid.
after reading your post I've looked up the D&D warpriest class, and as you probably already know, "Warpriests gain proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor, and shields (including tower shields)".
if you do decide to limit warpriests' weapon selection, at least limit much like you do the kensai's, to weapon groups.

as for spells like haste and blur being a part of the warpriest arsenal, I do not feel there is a need for those. would they be nice to have? sure. but I agree with previous statements that it would take away from the appeal/uniqueness of bards and arcanes. After giving it much thought, I feel blur shouldn't be a divine spell, and haste while not needed would fit nicely into the warpriest concept, allowing him to charge with his friends into battle.




- Grant Silver to your weapons.
- Add Implacable Foe as a capstone or tier 5 ability.
- Other new stuff we haven't decided on yet.


I don't get the point of adding silver to the priest's weapons. seems like an arbitrary choice. if anything aligned weapons, or flametouched iron, would have made more sense. that's is not to say I think either should be added! there are plenty of useful things that SHOULD go into that tree as it is, no need to invent arbitrary irrelevant stuff.

let me address that before I go on... things I believe the tree should contain:
1. a melee damage line
apart for the benign (+1 hit and damage ... +1 crit threat/multiplier) chain, I would like to see add divine might (currently available to clerics) added, and an enhancement to improve the duration of divine power/favor (SLA?).

2. durability bonuses (AC/hp/saves etc... please, no 2% resists. we have enough semi-useless stuff)

3. healing bursts line:
It has been my experience that battle-clerics work best when using bursts to heal, and use them more often than other cleric builds, as they are always in the mix of things. adding an enhancement line that improves the bursts.
for example more bursts, stronger ones, maybe add a defensive or temp hp bonus to those that were healed by one, a chance to regain a burst on use or when you are hit, etc etc
last but not least - quicker bursts. too many times I've found myself as a ghost watching the burst go off and heal people around me, even with quicken active. quicker bursts for a warpriest would be a godsend, and after reading up on implacable foe, I would prefer quicker bursts over it, any day of the week.
among these enhancements in the tree I would also like to see quicken cost reduction, as anything a warpriest casts, with the exception of party buffs at the start of the quest, should be quickened. so reduce the cost of quicken for warpriests, the more the merrier.


4. "other cool stuff"
4.1. allowing warpriests to use wisdom instead of strength for determining attack modifier. the wise warrior enhancement ;) this could work nicely for casing clerics who want to mix it up, and are willing to give up melee damage to retain their casting ability. could also interact nicely with the dwarven "throw your weight around" enhancement.
4.2. temporary spell points when hit (if it works for druids..)
4.3. allowing warpriests to use cha instead of wis for casting modifier (most warpriests have higher cha than wis, for divine might and extra bursts. I say roll with it and let them use their divine spells effectively)
4.4. and along those lines, cause fear as an SLA would be sweet, if you can work it so it'll have a decent DC on a warpriest, that likely has a str/con build, with secondary cha and nearly dropped wis... good luck! would be an awesome addition to the playstyle if you can get it to work.
4.5. nightmare guard toggle. cool effect for sure, easy to implement, but by far the last on my list of cool stuff. adding it just to give you a last resort option, should you decide you can't implement anything else.


things a warpriest needs most!
BaB, Proficiencies

[Vellrad]

- Grant Silver to your weapons.


No way. At least make it toggle.
Remember about Celestia & Exalted angel?
Same effect here.

[dlsidhe]

Let me begin by saying thank you for hearing our cries for a warpriest tree. most appreciated.
I have played several warpriests in ddo, including 3 lives on my main. would be awesome to finally have that option built-in to the class.

As for the changes, I would like to see clerics/fvs no longer limited to "deity" weapons, as longswords/shortswords aren't very good, and longbows don't even qualify as melee.
greatsword is really the only valid melee weapon, and even that comes at the cost of being a warforged, which most clerics would like to avoid.
after reading your post I've looked up the D&D warpriest class, and as you probably already know, "Warpriests gain proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor, and shields (including tower shields)".
if you do decide to limit warpriests' weapon selection, at least limit much like you do the kensai's, to weapon groups.

I actually hardcore disagree with this - if you open up all weapons, you'll get cookie-cutter min-max THF warpriests. Grant full proficiency, yes, but grant the buffs only the deity's chosen weapon. Maybe wielding the chosen weapon grants a permanent Divine Power effect? ;)

[Lauf]

I actually hardcore disagree with this - if you open up all weapons, you'll get cookie-cutter min-max THF warpriests. Grant full proficiency, yes, but grant the buffs only the deity's chosen weapon.

ideally I would agree with you, the problem is, as I've stated, that the deities weapons aren't on a level playing field with not only min-max weapons (greataxe/dwarven axe/khopesh), with the 2nd tier of weapons (scimitars/rapiers/greatsword/bastard sword), or even with the 3rd tier of weapons (mauls / battle axes). you really have to go down the list to find shortswords and longswords. I guess we should consider ourselves lucky they didn't stick us with sickles and light picks...

although I'm partial to flavor builds, I feel that: a. a melee cleric is gimped enough, even without limiting his weapon selection to mediocre ones.
b. having 2 options for most races (longsword and longbow), only one of which is melee, makes for a pretty poor selection of flavor, even if you do decide to make it a flavor build.

you want to limit it to deity weapons? I'm all in with you. but first give some decent choices there. heck, start by giving choices...

[Claver]

This is not set in stone. We encourage you to speak up on what you specifically liked in Protection if you want it kept going forward, or other ideas for what may be added to Warpriest. We do have some other ideas from the PnP version that we may explore as well.


I really hated the Protection tree but found at least one tank build with a few levels of cleric where it made sense to splash

- Light Guard (best thing in the tree in my opinion)
- Enhanced Sanctuary for +20 RR
- Toughness

As far as how to design Warpriest, provide divine benefits that trigger upon actively participating in melee combat in an offensive capacity.

Use Monk Cures of Healing as a model

Mass Cure on Vorpal: Whenever Warpriest vorpals with a melee weapon all allies in 15 ft radius healed 1 point per level of Warpriest

Cast Divine spells upon successful attacks:

Deific Vengeance on Vorpal: Whenever Warpriest vorpals with a melee weapon the opponent is struck by Deific Vengeance cast Warpriests Divine level.

I agree the tree should benefit a variety of weapon types but there should be at least one top Tier 5 enhancement that promotes the favored weapon of your deity.

Divine Punishment on Vorpal: Whenever Warpriest vorpals with the favored weapon of their Deity (note this includes ranged long bows for Silver Flame) the opponent is struck by Divine Punishment cast Warpriests Divine level.

[Missing_Minds]

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.
Bigby's box vs. Otto's box and the statement that it was going to be "better"?

Turbine/DDO is being judged, constantly, and continue to be found lacking in live releases.

Turbine/DDO has an extensive history as of the last few years of being distracted, lackluster, and full of screwups.

You, Mr. Producer, have an equally extensive wall you are going to have to climb due to your predecessors. I wish you luck (I really do.) and may the forums have mercy on your soul.

[Teh_Troll]

Clerics and FvSs that can haste and blur.... So you're trying to make sure there's no reason to play a Bard at all?

Divine Casters should not get Arcane buffs, unless given by an arcane.

Nobody's gonna play a bard anyway.

So what's the deal with ranger devotion ENH? That get forgotten about?

[Deadlock]

Because no sane person would chose it, it would take up memory on the download servers, it would take up memory on the clients. It's so bad that even if it only takes up 1 kb that it's a waste.

Nah it just needed to be touched up and given a bit of love.

It should have had some version of artificer Positive Energy Infusion granting a 20% boost for a 10% loss on the caster, maybe a Globe of Invulnerability and a Radiant Forcefield that they can target self or other with.

The concept of a self-sacrificing heavy armoured cleric type is fine, give them Tower Shield Proficiency, make Armored +10AC, +10 PRR, 5% dodge and 5% incorporeal per rank instead if the useless 1 AC it currently gives, and amp the threat caused by their healing spells.

Let them annoint someone as their Protected, similiar idea to a FVS passing a crown out - A percentage of damage done to a Protected is instead taken from the cleric, and an amount of the aggro generated by the protected is passed to the cleric.

They would need an aura that generates Wary for that whole Wary thing to be worth using.

Instead of a boost to their Trapfinding skills, a massively heightened Spot and a spell that allows them to illuminate an area with a holy glow that reveals traps and boxes on a DC 10 + Cleric Level + WIS score (not modifier!)

On the capstone issue, add Divine Intervention into the Capstone with Radiant Servant and give Protection a new Capstone. If you're being mischievous it would be Martyr, a toggle effect that triggers if your Protected dies, they are instead restored to full health and you take their HP gain as damage to yourself?

There's nothing wrong with the idea behind it, it just needs a bit of work and a lot of AP reduction.

That then leaves the Warpriest line to be purely melee offensive without diluting it with Protection elements.

[pelaaja]

Clerics and FvSs that can haste and blur.... So you're trying to make sure there's no reason to play a Bard at all?

Divine Casters should not get Arcane buffs, unless given by an arcane.

Maybe not Haste... but Zeal? Anybody?

[FuzzyDuck81]

For the SLAs, i thought close wounds was fine at tier1, since its a cheap & quick little tool. Tier2 i'd suggest divine favour, tier3 prayer is fine, tier4 stalwart pact is fine (and will be a nice way to have it available for more spell-slot limited FvS) & tier 5 maybe something like stoneskin? A good selection of abilities that would boost defensive capabilities but also be more practically useful.

A few other things that could maybe be added:
Allow charisma or wisdom to apply for to-hit or damage (or both?)
Is it possible to add planar turning? (turn undead but for outsiders, elementals etc.)
Maybe a "combat aura", similar to the paladin aura, possibly a couple of options for a sacred bonus to either offense (attack/damage/doublestrike) or defence (AC/PRR/saves)
The core enhancements actually seem pretty decent to me, but again having 2 options for either defensive or offensive focus could be good.

[Atremus]

Maybe not Haste... but Zeal? Anybody?

Zeal was hit with the nerf hammer years ago. The 10% doublestrike it grants now is meh on the Paladin. Unless you are thinking about Zeal and some form of the new Henshin mystic / Rogue Staff build



A few other things that could maybe be added:
Allow charisma or wisdom to apply for to-hit or damage (or both)


This would be awesome

[Failedlegend]

Please stop suggesting a charm based Sorcerer.

This I agree with




Acolyte of the Skin I/Acolyte of the Skin II/Acolyte of the Skin III:

To summarize, you will have:

30 Fire Resistance,
6 Dodge,
6 Element resistance
3 MCL/CL to Fire spells
Immunity to Blindess/Poision/Disease
+6 Con
25 DR/-
+20 Fire Spell power.
3 SLAs that I've just made up.

I didn't include a summon at tier 3 because Turbine just can't make them useful. It would just be a waste of time and a waste of PrE.


Considering this is for a new Prestige Tree being added to Lammania this presantation style is way out of date.

As for the Summon it could easily be made to scale with level (as Palemaster Summon does on Lama now) and should not be left out of acolyte of the skin for flavour reasons...on the other hand Fire damage is so useless in this game and why would anyone want a watered down lightning bolt of fire, everything else is pretty cool (fire/element resist, DR, +Con) but overall this would just make a crappy version of Fire Savant.

I'd rather see a Battlemage type PrE. Some sort of Mix of Eldritch Knight, Swiftblade and Dragon Disciple...named Dragon Disciple and given color/element (ie. White = Cold, Black = Acid) choice with the first core ability.

The tree could include some of this stuff.



- Ways to reduce or eliminate ASF either by ASF value or just by armor type...like Tier 1 could nullify ASF for Light Armor/Light Shields, Tier 3 Medium Armor and Large Shields, Tier 5 Heavy Armor and Tower Shield (along with the relevant proficiencies)

- As SLAs (allowing for the spell to be modified) you could have buffs that have more effect on your self (make them self-target only) like for example Haste lasts longer, it's Dodge%/Reflex and Attack bonus scales a bit, Tier 5 ability could make spells like Haste & Tenser's Transformation last until rest and become undispellable

- Name it <Color> Dragon Disciple and have it like Savants where there's different versions for each element with slight differences.

- Natural Armor and PRR Increases to reflect your skin becoming dragon scale hard (probably have it increase for every core ability purchased)

- Bonuses to Str, Con and Charisma (aspect of the dragon or w/e)

- Breath Weapon (Element based on color choice) uses per day = Con mod

- Elemental Resistance (eventual immunity) based on color chosen

- Some immunities based on chosen color (similar to how palemaster gets undead-like immunities)

- Some sort of "Dragon Form" like the Palemasters forms...probably is where some of the abilities suggested here are accessed/gained. No need to change healing type since most Dragons are healed by positive energy...although it would be a thematic capstone to be healed by your chosen color/element

- Sorc Level counts as 1/3, 1/2, a full fighter (tier allotment up to you guys) for purpose of feat pre-reqs.

- Spell Resistance

- Some sort of Dragon roar ability that triggers an intimidate (does trigger intim cooldown) and cause cause fear (shaken on save)

- Damage Reduction/ X, where X is based on color (ie. Black = Adamantine, White = Crystal)

- Toggle abilty that allows you to expend Mana per strike to deal extra damage of your colors element (or maybe just a Single Element buff similar to Artificer "Elemental Weapon" except it stacks with any spells of that nature...probably part of the "Dragon Form")

- Spellpower bonus based on color choice (probably per point spent in tree kind of thing...less than what Savant grants though)

- Unarmed gains x[W] and piercing to reflect growing claws. (amount of increase up to devs...make it nice enough to matter though)


Thats all I can think of...Anyone else have more suggestions for a battlemage type PrE

This would make for a versatile Tree it could be unarmored, light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, Sword & Board, 2-Hander, TWF, Unarmed. (specific weapon group or type specifically avoided to make it flexible) that mixs martial and arcane prowess quite well to make a fun and unique Prestige Tree. The builds associated with this tree could be vastly different...Fighter/Sorcs, Sorc/Paladins, Monk/Sorcs, etc. (A Barbarian Occult Slayer/Sorceror Dragon Disciple would be funny) varying between Light splashes and deep multi-classing.

[Vargouille]

What do you mean by this? I'd assume you meant for weapon damage/attack but Str already does that.

Simpler than that. You can increase your Wisdom with an enhancement, for instance. You should also be able to increase Strength.

[Failedlegend]

Simpler than that. You can increase your Wisdom with an enhancement, for instance. You should also be able to increase Strength.

Ah ok like how Artificer has Str, Dex or Int...ok thx Varg

[budalic]

On the capstone issue, add Divine Intervention into the Capstone with Radiant Servant and give Protection a new Capstone. If you're being mischievous it would be Martyr, a toggle effect that triggers if your Protected dies, they are instead restored to full health and you take their HP gain as damage to yourself?


Um, that sounds like pretty bad trade, since cleric can cast True Resurrection.

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

This is not set in stone. We encourage you to speak up on what you specifically liked in Protection if you want it kept going forward, or other ideas for what may be added to Warpriest. We do have some other ideas from the PnP version that we may explore as well.

Additionally, this doesn't mean that everything will go completely untouched. We've already done some internal planning for an AP costing pass, and Protection as-is is still likely to become much cheaper again (along with some cost adjustments to some other trees).


Simple: turn "protector" a "weak" PrE, into a "Domain" add more "domains" and allow access by all Divines including Pali's regardless of PrE or race: the race inclusiveness thing is consistent with Eberron lore's lack of cut and dried alignment/archtypes/stereotypes. Yes this means a Human could take Bladesworn, I mean a Human taking up the cause of non-humans? That's unheard of cough/ ASPCA /cough PITA /cough and various other animal worship religions :) (the above was intended light heartedly)

PLEASE make more Deity weapon choices the current ones are stifled and boring and pigeon holed.. Throw Picks in there, Hammers and Maces (a Duergar domain), Kurkri's and Short swords (Assassin Deities) etc. slightly expand the ones you have for example:

Silver flame add Bastard swords, Short swords
Bladesworn: greataxes and Bastard swords
Vulkor: add greataxe and battle axe
Duergar Domain: Picks and hammers
Sovereign: add Greatsword and morningstars
Assassin Domain Kurkri's Short swords, Daggers etc.

Do this for the existing ones then add 6 or 8 new faith domains with 3 to 4 new melee weapons, following a simple formula: 1 THF and 2 to 3 one handed. Add a ranged choice in most of them. Give Bladsworn "Great crossbow" prof and a line of buffs (a +2/+3/+4 to knockdown DC?) Give Vuhlkor Light repeaters, with some kind of line to enhance their use. Give thrown weapons to the new Duergar and assassin domain etc.

Split the above off into "domains" trees once they are fleshed out and allow divines to access them. Give Clerics the core abilities for free, FvS and Pali's have to spend AP's on cores (simulates D&D cleric domains while still being useful for Pali's and FvS) Core abilities could be:

1 utility SLA (must be a popular useful low level spell, Jump, Exp retreat, rams might, cure light wounds, remove X)
+2 damage favored weapons or defensive ability (Diety apropriate) such as +10 PRR, or 4% dodge)
1 flavor SLA (pure flavor low level spell or spell like ability example: Insightful strikes for a "intellectual" diety, Tumble, Bulls strength (remember these are mostly flavor) for a strength deity, Mass shield, etc.)
+2 damage favored weapons or defensive ability
1 useful damaging or solid CC mid level spell SLA (example Wall of fire, Sunburst, Blade barrier, Web (Lolth Domain) Greater command etc.

I think everyone likes the light guards available in protector My Guards based melee FvS certainly liked it but as a tier 4? meh. At tier 4 it should be a radiance guard, and add a Tier 5 Sunburst guard with a 5% proc on being hit. Put Light guard down at tier 3.

[Wizza]

Considering this is for a new Prestige Tree being added to Lammania this presantation style is way out of date.

As for the Summon it could easily be made to scale with level (as Palemaster Summon does on Lama now) and should not be left out of acolyte of the skin for flavour reasons...on the other hand Fire damage is so useless in this game and why would anyone want a watered down lightning bolt of fire, everything else is pretty cool (fire/element resist, DR, +Con) but overall this would just make a crappy version of Fire Savant.

Made a new presentation style in the Discussion one that you saw, with Core and Tiers. However, I think that the main point to understand about my presentation is the purpose of that PrE suggested. What does that mean?

It means that I'd like a PrE always based on "magic" and a defensive-oriented let's say. I don't want a mixed melee-PrE when the only other offensive option that we have, Savants, is utterly being broken with this pass. It means that a melee-PrE would be cool for me IF and ONLY IF it was THE THIRD PrE of Sorcs.

Since it is just the 2nd, I'd rather to see a defensive one, like I suggested, coupled with some offensive/CC abilities.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Here's some of our tentative thoughts ...

Things we're considering for new enhancements which may or may not work out exactly in this manner:
- Add STR as an ability score choice.
- Add in a weapon damage line similar to some other melee DPS trees. This might be based your Deity's favored weapon type(s).
- Grant Haste to the Cleric spellbook.
- Grant Silver to your weapons.
- Add Implacable Foe as a capstone or tier 5 ability.
- Other new stuff we haven't decided on yet.


STR choice: Good, Obv.
Wpn damage line: Should be deity's favored wpn BUT we need more deities.
Haste and silver: Powerful, but I don't understand the flavor. I could better understand rage or a bard-like inspire courage-ish effect.
Other stuff: I imagine it should look a bit like some paladin stuff.

[GoldyGopher]

Here's some of our tentative thoughts on ways we are considering revamping the Protection Tree, gutting it, and then replacing it & turning it into Warpriest. Warpriest, like Protection, would still available to both Clerics and Warpriests, since we'd like melee to be a viable choice for both classes in the near future.

- Remove the "Shield Other" line.
- Replace or remove many or all of the SLAs.
- Remove Sacred Touch, Efficient Metamagic, and Trapfinding.
- Leave or adjust the defensive buffs.
- We are likely to rework many or all Core Enhancements.

Things we're considering for new enhancements which may or may not work out exactly in this manner:
- Add STR as an ability score choice.
- Add in a weapon damage line similar to some other melee DPS trees. This might be based your Deity's favored weapon type(s).
- Grant Haste to the Cleric spellbook.
- Grant Silver to your weapons.
- Add Implacable Foe as a capstone or tier 5 ability.
- Other new stuff we haven't decided on yet.

This is not set in stone. We encourage you to speak up on what you specifically liked in Protection if you want it kept going forward, or other ideas for what may be added to Warpriest. We do have some other ideas from the PnP version that we may explore as well.

Additionally, this doesn't mean that everything will go completely untouched. We've already done some internal planning for an AP costing pass, and Protection as-is is still likely to become much cheaper again (along with some cost adjustments to some other trees).


We are not as far into the planning for the upcoming Sorcerer tree, and at this point are still open to ideas for what kind of gameplay it should enable or address.

I am going to say something that might shock some people, but it needs to be said. Revamping the Protection Tree to create a Warpriest Tree is not the way to solve the problem that people are asking for.

Clerics fall into several broad categories
Heal Many - The classic healbot cleric. Radiant Servant works well using bursts and mass cure/heal spells to keep a large number of characters alive during an encounter.
Heal One - The cleric who is simply responsible for keeping a Tank alive, a pocket healer or personal healer. Currently these clerics use Radiant Servant abilities to supplement casting Heal, curse removal, and staying out of trouble
Heal Thyself - The prototypical War Priest, currently using large amounts of multi-classing, creating limited healing ability for the party, many now enter quests without full SP bars to indicate they don't expect to heal everyone.
Divine Caster - Currently there are not many of these on Live, but people are salivating about creating these on Lamannia, in my case I question whether or not they will have the SP or the Damage Output to truly be effective members of parties equaling at least a Sorc (with the new trees)


No I am not saying that ALL clerics fit into these categories rather these four categories represent I broad spectrum of what players expect of clerics or their clerics to be able to do in parties.

The new Radiant Servant Tree as presented has several problems, as it really creates a large number of wasted points for those true healers, in the neighborhood of 5 to 8 points that just have to be spent for no real effect on the character. Add in the fact you lose 50 Spell Power in all other categories and your critical in offensive spells just went out the window.

The new Protector Tree as presented in the Alpha while it is a bad implementation its a very good idea for players who want their character to be the Tank's personal healer. (Somewhere a favorite Barbarian just got a hot flash). The idea that when you heal an ally they pickup AC, PRR, and other protections is a good thing. How it's implemented is not so good. It's a lot of points (my dwarf Cleric Pally is looking at 96 points to get fully functioning) so you cannot do everything, things have to short of duration and several things you have to ask why they are in the tree (okay because it was supposed to be more of a warpriest tree, gotcha).

The Divine Disciple tree while getting many players excited I worry about the cost to fully prepare you character in terms of Action Points and if the characters in this tree will do enough damage/dps to be a "good" addition to the party.
I should note I think it would be cool IF there were more spells in the Divine Spell Book.

That leaves the new Warpriest Tree.
I like the basis of what you are saying; however like several other posters I don't think it goes far enough.
The Warpriest needs the ability to choose a martial weapon, get full BAB, cast silver and or holy on weapons their weapons, pick up tower shield or maybe two weapon fighting. Definitely needs a Wis/Str choice.
I would add a stance that produces a healing effect on a successful melee strike against the character.
I would place an additional +1 BAB in each of the core enhancements
I would add +.75 HP for every point spent in the tree

So as you see I would create FOUR trees for clerics rather than 3.

[CE2JRH123]

Thanks for adding warpriest. I was thinking about something involving divine favour and divine power, two iconic cleric spells --- adding bonus effects to them. Divine favour could get additional attack and damage bonuses, and divine power could get increased strength (up to +8 or +9 enhancement, maybe? A dedicated melee cleric will have +8 anyways, but this could be a way to free up an item slot), double strike, or other benefits? Both could get mana free quicken+extend (or be SLA's?)

As for haste + blur + stepping on arcane's toes: Blur I'm kinda indifferent about; scrolls have been everywhere for a long time. Haste I buy a little more since duration matters --- clerics in 3.5E for weapon damage often get group buffs (Righteous Wrath of Faithful, Prayer), so some upgrade there might be reasonable, too?


Either way, if this turns out not-terribly, I'll be much more likely to spend more money on DDO in the future. So good work.

[Cyr]

I wouldn't announce it if we didn't intend to build it.

The team wants to deliver this and I'm going to support them to do so.

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.

I already have judged Turbine on their delivery and it has been very poor indeed. Release notes and developer statements regularly turn out to be wrong or not delivered on...oh and producer statements too of course. Three or more PrEs per class and a racial PrE per race was announced years ago.

Go forward to now and what we are going to get is not even 3 full PrEs per class, NO NEW RACIAL PREs, and some trees which are basically a few new abilities (mostly junk) mixed with core abilities (read stuff like enhancements which make rage better not the 'core' enhancements of the new pass) from the old enhancements forcing people into multiple trees to retain what they had before without much new stuff at all that they care about.

[Lauf]

I'll begin by saying how much I love the open communication you've been having with us lately, it is most appreciated and definitely a welcome change :)
I hope the discussion of the enhancements and possible changes to them will not end once they go live, as I believe that although the existing trees are already taking shape, there is still much work to be done.

Following my earlier post I went and talked to several cleric friends and guildies, and I've found a couple that kinda liked the protection tree the way it is... that is to say, it surely wasn't a crowd favorite, but it did suit some.
what am I getting at? rather than gutting it completely, and putting new stuff in, changing the core abilities and tweaking whatever is left, essentially making a new tree out of it, why not just make a new tree?
would be a shame to throw away the work and testing that already went into an existing tree, if you're going to make a completely new one out of it anyway.

more choices are fun, not a bad thing. will it be frowned upon by other classes who haven't reached 3 or even 2 trees, let alone 4? sure. and rightfully so. but that's no reason to be foolishly throw away what some (few) people find a useable tree, especially if it means more options for players at little to no extra work for you, in keeping it.
and if that might lead to more divines walking the realm, everyone will be better off for it.


I am going to say something that might shock some people, but it needs to be said. Revamping the Protection Tree to create a Warpriest Tree is not the way to solve the problem that people are asking for.
as you see I would create FOUR trees for clerics rather than 3.

I would categorize the 4 differently than you have (healing, defensive, offensive casting, melee) but in the end it boils down to the same 4 trees. so call it what you will, I'm with you on keeping 4 trees available for divines.

this thread seems to have been hijacked by the warpriest tree discussion, and I feel some other trees deserve to be mentioned as needing some TLC before the release.
without going into too much detail, warchanter is a little on the bizarre and weak side, deepwood sniper seems to me like a tree to pick cherries off of rather than a legitimate build option, at the moment stalwart defender is all shield based, leaving no real options for kensais to pick enhancements from it, and that's just off the top of my head.

all in all I'm loving the move to the new enhancements, costs were still a bit too steep in my opinion on the last pass, but I love what you've done with them so far. keep up the good work :)

[Zzevel]

Warpriest:

Arcane spells? Blanket IMMUNITIES? +30 resistance? +W to all allies? The Earth? The Moon?

We can do SO much better than this .... !

You may be talking about a Warpriest tree but this is NOT a core melee you want a righteous melee? play a palidin, gripe about why they are bad!...

Yes, give Warpriests some boots to stats, YES add some damage to weapons (Where are the blunt weapon dieties? What warpriest didn't use a Warhammer?) by Diety.. Perfect! but don't go outside the bounds set by other race/class type standards, or make them stack or GIVE them DIFFERENT affects to synergize with possible racial bonuses..(here add your +1W)... say you're an Elf, you use a Longswords for the racial hit/dmg bonus (splashed monk levels keep centered), you have a Longsword Diety now your +1W, +hit +dmg... PERFECT, make the weapons useful by choice, get the synergies flowing.

Add stuff like a .5/1/1.5/2% chance your radiant servant goes off when hit (does not use a charge) rather than arcane spells, or blanket AOE bonuses (that's a Pallie's thing). Add a Holy Smite type attack (recgarges with every hit done in your Diety's name) that does light/dark dmg depending on your Diety. Add a SANCTUARY type use that adds PPR to whomever you cast it on (who didn't have that in PnP?) Get creative Don't get greedy and pile on what everyone else has.

[XxJFGxX]

Would like to see Wild Mage and Acolyte of the Skin enhancements as well as racial PrEs. :D

[Chette]

Would like to see Wild Mage and Acolyte of the Skin enhancements as well as racial PrEs. :D

Racial PrEs, gogogo! Come on guys, this should be so easy to do. Nothing really new to design, just open up access to certain class trees to certain races. Halfling = rogues trees, elf = ranger trees, orc = barbarian trees, it's not that hard to do, you've just gotta start pairing things up. Right now the racial trees are exceptionally weak compared to the class trees. I'm going to go human on almost everybody for the extra feat and skillpoint, because there are few races that are worth it. Adding racial access to class trees will change that and open up so many new possibilities. You say you want build diversity, here's your chance to make that happen :)

[eachna_gislin]

I wouldn't announce it if we didn't intend to build it.

The team wants to deliver this and I'm going to support them to do so.

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.

AHAHAHAHA. Your join date in the forums is July, as in the same month you're posting this message.

I don't know if you're new to the staff or just new to the forums, but, Turbine staff routinely announce fixes and improvements that they either don't deliver at all, or give half-baked approximations that we're supposed to pony up and pay for. Turbine staff has therefore lost the support of a sizable chunk of the player base.

That said, I do sincerely appreciate the addition of a third cleric tree, as well as at least the consideration of fixing Protection, even if it's never delivered. It's an admission that the cleric prestiges as initially presented were not agreeable to the players.

Next up, please give clerics their domains. Not PrEs named after domains, but proper domains which at a minimum should give bonus or early spell access to specific spells in each of their spellbook levels.

TL;DR - Too much bad history to believe this will be fixed. Thank you for admitting the Protection tree does not deliver what players would want. Please work on domains.

[eachna_gislin]

I am going to say something that might shock some people, but it needs to be said. Revamping the Protection Tree to create a Warpriest Tree is not the way to solve the problem that people are asking for.

Clerics fall into several broad categories
Heal Many - The classic healbot cleric. Radiant Servant works well using bursts and mass cure/heal spells to keep a large number of characters alive during an encounter.
Heal One - The cleric who is simply responsible for keeping a Tank alive, a pocket healer or personal healer. Currently these clerics use Radiant Servant abilities to supplement casting Heal, curse removal, and staying out of trouble
Heal Thyself - The prototypical War Priest, currently using large amounts of multi-classing, creating limited healing ability for the party, many now enter quests without full SP bars to indicate they don't expect to heal everyone.
Divine Caster - Currently there are not many of these on Live, but people are salivating about creating these on Lamannia, in my case I question whether or not they will have the SP or the Damage Output to truly be effective members of parties equaling at least a Sorc (with the new trees)


I agree with the others that say keep Protection and instead create a fourth prestige for clerics. By simply changing "Shield Other" to "Shield Target" and allowing a cleric to shield themselves and/or another (an interesting upper level power would be to shield both yourself and one target at the same time) you could fix the most egregious fault of the tree. This being that it turned the Protection cleric into a buff bot for someone else with little benefit to themselves. I'm not saying that doing this would make it an awesome tree, but it would make it bearable.

I also like the above breakdown of the types of clerics in the game. I play raid healers and in some cases I heal the tank, in other cases I heal a small cluster of people, in still other cases I'm responsible for most of the party. So my bread and butter play are Heal Many and Heal One roles, I've been waiting for warpriest to build a Heal Thyself cleric, and I can't wait to try out the new Divine Caster role with the new caster cleric prestige.

I disagree that the Divine Caster should be as effective as a sorc as far as damage output or spellpoints. Something vaguely like that should be reserved for a nuking prestige for Favored Souls. They should be more equivalent to wizards in their damage and spellpoints. Wizards can play "healing" roles also (via PM's throwing negative energy at each other, and Repair spells cast at artis and warforged) although it's commonly a Heal One/Heal Thyself situation for the arcanes.

Here is a writeup on warpriests from WotC. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mp/mp20010413d

It would be a really good place to start. In particular, note the weapon and armor proficiencies, and the list of daily spells that could be turned into SLAs. Imagine a tier 5 Mass Heal SLA that could be meta'd for free. A warpriest could target it on themselves and use it to self-heal and heal any melees nearby. That would be a reasonable alternative to losing the radiant servant aura (something the other cleric prestiges are lacking).

[Jon_Irenicus]

I can't download the lammania client, and it's not allowed to be shared.
What other option do i have?

[dydymus420]

So far I can honestly say I am not very happy with the new enhancement tree lines they do not take into account cross classing very well at all

[rsking]

i can't even log in so theres your answer from me

[Nascoe]

Closed Beta will be launching at the end of this week (Lammania will close shortly to support that).

If you pre-ordered Shadowfell Conspiracy and registered your key in early to mid June, you can expect an email invitation soon. Invitations will continue for later rounds, with priority for VIPs.

Thank you for all the feedback during this enhancements preview! We will spend the Beta period focused on fixing bugs and improving the enhancement trees in general, but have two major changes already underway.

Favored Soul and Cleric: We will be replacing the "Protection" tree with a melee-focused "Warpriest" tree, likely in the first patch after expansion launch.

Sorcerer: Sorcerer will get a new, additional enhancements tree later in the year (likely U20).

I'll save the details for Vargouille or one of the other designers to dig into.

Good to see the Warpriest tree is coming, shame about the second Sorcerer tree coming only later. But It would be great to hear the Sorcs get a tad more power than in its current guise, as they are losing out pretty badly

[krontan]

I would like to say that coming into the beta I was skeptical about the new enhancement trees. Especially for my bard fighter and what they had done to the trees for multi-classing them. After going over them I was rather impressed at the work they had put into the trees and even though I did loose some hp from where I was, the benefits were worth it. I got to pick between multiple prestige s and making my bard more efficient in what he could do and adding better attacks in the way of what fighter options he had. I liked the new trees and I look forward to the new enhancements going live.

[decease]

druid form ability should be convert from spell to free cast ability on enhancement tree... serious turbine.. hear our plea..

p.s. oh and they must have decent dc.. like 10+druid level + wis/str (whichever is higher)

[Drwaz99]

Skepticism is healthy - in the end you can judge us on our delivery.

See now that we are 2 weeks into a "Closed Preview", get ready to eat some of your words. It's nice that you gave a glimmer of hope for a brief moment. But your no different than the rest. Here for a couple posts the *poof*. Such a shame.

(and before all the fans jump to his rescue, this is solely a response to this statement, not on the topic of the thread.)

[Deadlock]

With only 2 weeks to go before launch, are you not opening Lamannia up to open beta and dropping the NDA to allow us to freely discuss the changes?

Given the enhancement changes and XP repetition/ransack mechanics will affect everyone, it might be useful for everyone to see what's coming down the line in 2 weeks time?

Might as well get the mass doom threads out of the way now so we can concentrate on bug reporting when it goes live.

[Thrudh]

With only 2 weeks to go before launch, are you not opening Lamannia up to open beta and dropping the NDA to allow us to freely discuss the changes?

Given the enhancement changes and XP repetition/ransack mechanics will affect everyone, it might be useful for everyone to see what's coming down the line in 2 weeks time?

Might as well get the mass doom threads out of the way now so we can concentrate on bug reporting when it goes live.

Exactly, I'm dying to refute all the DOOOOOM posts on the main boards...

The new enhancement system is very solid for many classes... I don't have a sorc, so maybe those trees still need some work, but for the ones I could compare side-by-side, in most cases, the new system is a net BUFF.

[Teh_Troll]

Exactly, I'm dying to refute all the DOOOOOM posts on the main boards...

The new enhancement system is very solid for many classes... I don't have a sorc, so maybe those trees still need some work, but for the ones I could compare side-by-side, in most cases, the new system is a net BUFF.

Um . . . you guys are aware that all logged-in users can view these forums . . . right?

[Deadlock]

Um . . . you guys are aware that all logged-in users can view these forums . . . right?

I thought it was only VIP's and pre-order people who could see the Lamannia forums.

Give me a minute to grab my instance holder free account and check.

EDIT: Nope, man, you're 100% correct.

You can't get into Lamannia without logging in, but you can login on a free account.

So can we get a community person to give us the nod that the NDA is now dropped?

[WhoCaresItsNotReal]

I can confirm that free accounts have access to the Lamannia forums.

[2pleasegimmie]

With only 2 weeks to go before launch, are you not opening Lamannia up to open beta and dropping the NDA to allow us to freely discuss the changes?

Given the enhancement changes and XP repetition/ransack mechanics will affect everyone, it might be useful for everyone to see what's coming down the line in 2 weeks time?

Might as well get the mass doom threads out of the way now so we can concentrate on bug reporting when it goes live.

They are keeping the lid on so they can continue to shovel out the expansion to unsuspecting players. That cash grab will be limited if we get to agitate against their /fail. Also, given the level of techincal skill, devotion to bugfixing, etc, the "doom" is more than warranted.

[Deadlock]

They are keeping the lid on so they can continue to shovel out the expansion to unsuspecting players. That cash grab will be limited if we get to agitate against their /fail. Also, given the level of techincal skill, devotion to bugfixing, etc, the "doom" is more than warranted.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that :)

[Teh_Troll]

. . . the "doom" is more than warranted.

Maybe if your favorite class is sorcerer . . . but other than that no, it is not. There's more good than bad in the ENH pass.

[2pleasegimmie]

Maybe if your favorite class is sorcerer . . . but other than that no, it is not. There's more good than bad in the ENH pass.

A ten-year old with a pack of crayons could do as good a job on those trees, but that isn't all we're dealing with, is it?