Ideas to encourage grouping.

[Inthuul]

Starting this thread to attempt to collect ideas for Turbine to encourage grouping. With the ultimate goal of increasing the amount of LFMs available to players.


I'll start.

Change the +10% Flawless Victory Bonus to only affect the character who died. Does this encourage teamwork? Maybe not. Does it encourage grouping? Maybe.

Create a new grouping bonus.
The leader of the party (most likely the creator of the LFM but not always) could get a +2% experience point bonus for every other player (not hireling) in the group, up to +10% experience for a full party in a normal quest.
Every player participating in a group that is not the leader could get a +1% experience point bonus for every other player in the group, up to a +5% bonus for a normal quest.
To keep experience in line, Raids (though grouping is necessary usually) could provide a +1% bonus for every other player in the group up to +11% with no "leader" bonus.

To encourage grouping outside of guilds or semi-static or static groups there could be an experience bonus for grouping with a player you have never grouped with before or haven't grouped with recently like within 30 days or some other time period.
This sounds like it could be more difficult to code than the above "grouping bonus" and I would encourage other ideas here.

For simplicity I will also mention ideas I have already seen;

Megaserver all players are moved to one server. Anyone with a technological background, feel free to comment on this idea.

Instanced LFMs that are cross server. Turbine would likely have to implement a way to pull characters directly into a quest from wherever zone they are in and then are placed in an instance of the quest with characters from other servers. This would have economic implications too, allowing items that can be traded to pass between servers. Other challenges would be cross server access to the shard auction house as that can be brought up from the DDO ampersand. (Maybe not in quests? Never tried it.)

I'm not interested in only discussing why or if LFM postings seem to be more infrequent. This has been discussed in other threads and should only be included here when relevant to the topic.

Thanks for reading this far. I'm really interested in seeing what the community ideas about this subject are.

Sol(insert relevant suffix based on character type here)
Sarlona

[Teh_Troll]

Remove scaling on elite.

[arkonas]

See even if we dont merge servers lets say. I dont see why grouping can't use 2-3 other servers. So you pick one of the highest and 2 of the smaller ones etc to pool from.


Ths tactic alone would allow people to play with others from another server and meet new faces. it might increase the lfms as well. Sure there will probably be more drama and new players but hey you never know what you will find in a pug.

[jalont]

A rating system that rates each player on a broad spectrum of subjects.

[goodspeed]

Starting this thread to attempt to collect ideas for Turbine to encourage grouping. With the ultimate goal of increasing the amount of LFMs available to players.


I'll start.

Change the +10% Flawless Victory Bonus to only affect the character who died. Does this encourage teamwork? Maybe not. Does it encourage grouping? Maybe.

Create a new grouping bonus.
The leader of the party (most likely the creator of the LFM but not always) could get a +2% experience point bonus for every other player (not hireling) in the group, up to +10% experience for a full party in a normal quest.
Every player participating in a group that is not the leader could get a +1% experience point bonus for every other player in the group, up to a +5% bonus for a normal quest.
To keep experience in line, Raids (though grouping is necessary usually) could provide a +1% bonus for every other player in the group up to +11% with no "leader" bonus.

To encourage grouping outside of guilds or semi-static or static groups there could be an experience bonus for grouping with a player you have never grouped with before or haven't grouped with recently like within 30 days or some other time period.
This sounds like it could be more difficult to code than the above "grouping bonus" and I would encourage other ideas here.

For simplicity I will also mention ideas I have already seen;

Megaserver all players are moved to one server. Anyone with a technological background, feel free to comment on this idea.

Instanced LFMs that are cross server. Turbine would likely have to implement a way to pull characters directly into a quest from wherever zone they are in and then are placed in an instance of the quest with characters from other servers. This would have economic implications too, allowing items that can be traded to pass between servers. Other challenges would be cross server access to the shard auction house as that can be brought up from the DDO ampersand. (Maybe not in quests? Never tried it.)

I'm not interested in only discussing why or if LFM postings seem to be more infrequent. This has been discussed in other threads and should only be included here when relevant to the topic.

Thanks for reading this far. I'm really interested in seeing what the community ideas about this subject are.

Sol(insert relevant suffix based on character type here)
Sarlona

while I dont think rocketing up in heroic levels would matter, I cant see turb just giving 5 and 10% bonus's everywhere. I mean theird probably be multi boxing like no tomorrow.

As far as bonus for grouping outside a guild or with a static group that games together, I cant see that happening either. lol come on thats basically a punishment for having friends/family while gaming.

The global server thing is sort of on the right idea, ive seen it in a few other games. Basically the game is interlinked through a lfg menu, sort of like how a matchmaking service works on psn or xbox, and people from various servers log into a sort of multiverse dungeon.

That idea could, and probably would solve all population problems, but on that front I can't see those boys sitting down to set that up in game. Especially when they could fix transfers first and then charge a boatload for transfers.

[Fedora1]

I'm going to take an educated guess and say that 40% of DDO'ers are solo'ers these days, and they will not like bonuses to XP for groups.

It might also cause people who already sit around for an hour waiting for a group to fill up be even more reluctant to start a quest unless in a full group.

I know of cases where people left DDO because many of the quests required groups to complete. Actually at the time, (maybe 4 years ago?) some quests were too difficult to solo - obvioulsy that's not the case anymore. I mostly solo, but have been grouping/partying more recently. Except for my Sunday night static group and occasionally grouping with a couple of my guildies I still enjoy solo more, just due to the immersion and doing optionals, etc. I'm not in a race to end-game (yet).

So I think any time the devs try to force (by way of exclusionary bonuses) a certain type of game play, it has as much negative effect as it does positive. Example from the past - guilds. Recent example - Wayfinder bonus xp.

[Teh_Troll]

A rating system that rates each player on a broad spectrum of subjects.

Elaborate.

[jalont]

Elaborate.

THere's many factors that keep me from joining pugs with unknown people, and a potential loss of ten percent isn't one of them. They include, will this person be a jerk? Will this person want to do all the optionals and break everything, dropping xp/min to a horrible rate? Will this person run this dungeon in a suboptimal manner? I usually end up just deciding things will go better if I don't join the group. In order for me to start grouping with random people, I need something that answers these questions for me. The only thing I can think of would be an elaborate and accurate rating system that rates each toon.

[Inthuul]

THere's many factors that keep me from joining pugs with unknown people, and a potential loss of ten percent isn't one of them. They include, will this person be a jerk? Will this person want to do all the optionals and break everything, dropping xp/min to a horrible rate? Will this person run this dungeon in a suboptimal manner? I usually end up just deciding things will go better if I don't join the group. In order for me to start grouping with random people, I need something that answers these questions for me. The only thing I can think of would be an elaborate and accurate rating system that rates each toon.

Can the issues of jerk players and players not running the quest as you like be solved in a different way other than a rating system?

[redspecter23]

The number one reason that I don't group up more than I currently do is a time related issue. When I solo, especially lower levels, any amount of waiting is time I'm not questing. In general, I'm in a quest for a minute or two. Maybe up to 5 minutes on longer low level quests. There is no point in me putting up an LFM for such a short quest. It doesn't benefit me. That may sound a bit selfish but it's the truth. I'm not getting my quest done any faster or easier by bringing another person along.

I could put up an LFM such as "Harbor Elite, IP, BYOH" but that's not helping anyone that actually needs the help at that level range and according to many forum posts only serves to frustrate and annoy people anyway.

If I'm grouping at a low level, it's because I'm going out of my way to help people and don't have any expectations of going quickly. There's the sticky part right there. I may have xp pots running. Pots that I paid money for that dictate that I "should" be running as fast as I can to maximize my xp/$ spent. If I'm slowed down in any way, I'm losing money. Give me a way to stop that pot timer or mitigate my loss by helping out other groups or new players and that's the key to getting me to group up more.

I'll give a solid mid game example as well. Yesterday, I was farming Litany of the Dead solo for xp. Typically, I hit this at level 16 and it's the only time I usually chug a 50% xp pot. I was also looking to run Fleshmaker (infinitely easier with a group over solo), but the xp/min in Fleshmaker is wretched compared to Litany. A group came up for Fleshmaker while I was between solo runs on Litany, but I didn't want to do it. It would have felt like I was wasting my 50% pot so instead of grouping up, I kept on my solo schedule and will try for Fleshmaker tonight after my pot runs out. This may not be an issue for everyone, but it is for me. That pot timer keeps me to a very specific schedule as does bravery bonus in general. Deviation slows me down and forces me to use extra $ resources to make up for it.

[Inthuul]

while I dont think rocketing up in heroic levels would matter, I cant see turb just giving 5 and 10% bonus's everywhere. I mean theird probably be multi boxing like no tomorrow.

As far as bonus for grouping outside a guild or with a static group that games together, I cant see that happening either. lol come on thats basically a punishment for having friends/family while gaming.

The global server thing is sort of on the right idea, ive seen it in a few other games. Basically the game is interlinked through a lfg menu, sort of like how a matchmaking service works on psn or xbox, and people from various servers log into a sort of multiverse dungeon.

That idea could, and probably would solve all population problems, but on that front I can't see those boys sitting down to set that up in game. Especially when they could fix transfers first and then charge a boatload for transfers.

I agree that exclusionary bonuses are probably not the best solution.

Global LFMs have been mentioned three times now (more or less). Could this be the optimal initial LFM increasing design idea?

[rest]

remove dungeon alert

[Teh_Troll]

THere's many factors that keep me from joining pugs with unknown people, and a potential loss of ten percent isn't one of them. They include, will this person be a jerk? Will this person want to do all the optionals and break everything, dropping xp/min to a horrible rate? Will this person run this dungeon in a suboptimal manner? I usually end up just deciding things will go better if I don't join the group. In order for me to start grouping with random people, I need something that answers these questions for me. The only thing I can think of would be an elaborate and accurate rating system that rates each toon.

It sounds like you're much better off just soloing.

[SiliconScout]

I am fine with Dungeon Alert it's purpose is to reduce zerging speed running and it does so well enough.

If you want to encourage grouping then you need to remove BB honestly. Since the mechanic was introduced the PUG and group scene has dropped dramatically.

Removing the -10% for death as a group penalty might be useful but then if that was the case I can just as easily see the people who won't take on a PUG bailing on the others and letting them die in quest because it doesn't have a negative effect on their XP any longer.

[Inthuul]

The number one reason that I don't group up more than I currently do is a time related issue. When I solo, especially lower levels, any amount of waiting is time I'm not questing. In general, I'm in a quest for a minute or two. Maybe up to 5 minutes on longer low level quests. There is no point in me putting up an LFM for such a short quest. It doesn't benefit me. That may sound a bit selfish but it's the truth. I'm not getting my quest done any faster or easier by bringing another person along.

I could put up an LFM such as "Harbor Elite, IP, BYOH" but that's not helping anyone that actually needs the help at that level range and according to many forum posts only serves to frustrate and annoy people anyway.

If I'm grouping at a low level, it's because I'm going out of my way to help people and don't have any expectations of going quickly. There's the sticky part right there. I may have xp pots running. Pots that I paid money for that dictate that I "should" be running as fast as I can to maximize my xp/$ spent. If I'm slowed down in any way, I'm losing money. Give me a way to stop that pot timer or mitigate my loss by helping out other groups or new players and that's the key to getting me to group up more.

I'll give a solid mid game example as well. Yesterday, I was farming Litany of the Dead solo for xp. Typically, I hit this at level 16 and it's the only time I usually chug a 50% xp pot. I was also looking to run Fleshmaker (infinitely easier with a group over solo), but the xp/min in Fleshmaker is wretched compared to Litany. A group came up for Fleshmaker while I was between solo runs on Litany, but I didn't want to do it. It would have felt like I was wasting my 50% pot so instead of grouping up, I kept on my solo schedule and will try for Fleshmaker tonight after my pot runs out. This may not be an issue for everyone, but it is for me. That pot timer keeps me to a very specific schedule as does bravery bonus in general. Deviation slows me down and forces me to use extra $ resources to make up for it.

I'm not sure there is a way to solve the XP pot problem but can the time issues be addressed?

I see players being slowed by ship buffs and selling and repairing, traveling, and occasionally leveling and banking.
Could players getting sucked into the dungeon instance once their lfm request is accepted solve some of this?
You would obviously still want to put IP in your quest notes so as to not waste any XP pot time. As there are already timers in the LFM people applying to your group with a knowledge of how long the quest usually takes might still benefit from grouping with you.

[Fedora1]

Hmm, reading the last reply gave me an idea. They have guild reknown potions, what about group xp potions? Instead of a timer, it would give the bonus for that 1 quest to all members of the party. Say 10% or whatever. Non-stacking of course. The leader pops the XP potion then puts up lfm advertising the bonus.

Lots of ways to expand/refine the idea. Just tossing it out there. Launch the effort by making it a buff reward in the daily silver rolls.

[350zguy]

If you're VIP when someone enters a quest in your group... it auto shares the quest, and pops up to teleport you in with them.

(removes stupid travel to quests, to make it EASY to group up.)

If you're VIP you get a bracelet of friends that recharges every day to summon players to public areas for questing purposes

(removes stupid travel to quests)

Remove the "server" concept, and do like secret world again.... have all populations in one group pool, so no matter the "State of the game" there are always people to play with. Make it only VIPs that can server hop infinitely.

(fixes low pop server issues)

Add a +1 loot bonus to the chest if you have a full group of PLAYERS only.. Hirelings don't count. (FREE LOOT!!)

(Doesn't level characters faster, but gives another offset for dungeon scaling that isn't XP)

Add the ability to kick players from a quest.

(The current reverse problem is worse, they can stand around and soak XP, and up the dungeon difficulty and you can't do anything but leave group, and reform... Punishing EVERYONE vs, just kicking them out of group / dungeon)


--------------------------------------------------------

All of this just makes it "easier" to group, and none of it changes the XP.

Only 1 suggestion gives "extra" and it isn't XP, it's just loot. 99% of chest loot is vendor trash anyway.

[bsquishwizzy]

Can the issues of jerk players and players not running the quest as you like be solved in a different way other than a rating system?

Honestly, Jerk players provide some of the best material for public ridicule.

"YOU NEVER, EVER STONESKIN A CLERIC!!! NEVAAAARRRRR!!!"

[Postumus]

Significantly increase the drop rates for named/extremely rare items and augments for every additional player in the party, with an additional bonus for full parties comprised of six separate players.


It's susceptible to multi-boxers, but that's got to be such a small population I don't think it would be a bigger deal than it is now.

[Teh_Troll]

Significantly increase the drop rates for named/extremely rare items and augments for every additional player in the party, with an additional bonus for full parties comprised of six separate players.


It's susceptible to multi-boxers, but that's got to be such a small population I don't think it would be a bigger deal than it is now.

Oh I so LOVE this idea. Start a new thread on it, it's that good.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

[CheeseMilk]

Raise the % chance of Rare encounters appearing based on how many people are in group, in both explorer areas and quests.

I know this won't really matter to the zerging playstyle (might even hurt it a bit in some quests), but it will bring more flower-sniffers together.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

THere's many factors that keep me from joining pugs with unknown people, and a potential loss of ten percent isn't one of them. They include, will this person be a jerk? Will this person want to do all the optionals and break everything, dropping xp/min to a horrible rate? Will this person run this dungeon in a suboptimal manner? I usually end up just deciding things will go better if I don't join the group. In order for me to start grouping with random people, I need something that answers these questions for me. The only thing I can think of would be an elaborate and accurate rating system that rates each toon.

You don't need answers, you (and I'm betting a number of other players) need to get over your anxiety/control issues/insecurities/fear of screwing up/mic issues or whatever is stopping you from pressing "join" and being civil among other people for an hour or two.

[FranOhmsford]

THere's many factors that keep me from joining pugs with unknown people, and a potential loss of ten percent isn't one of them. They include, will this person be a jerk? Will this person want to do all the optionals and break everything, dropping xp/min to a horrible rate? Will this person run this dungeon in a suboptimal manner? I usually end up just deciding things will go better if I don't join the group. In order for me to start grouping with random people, I need something that answers these questions for me. The only thing I can think of would be an elaborate and accurate rating system that rates each toon.

Simple:

Stick to LFM's that say Zerg, TR Only, BYOH etc.


On the other hand:

Know it = I know this quest so you'd better know it too {For those of you who think this means NEED GUIDE - It doesn't}
Need Guide is also TWO Words - Don't annoy the Elitists by using Know it instead!

Also - I WON'T join groups that say Know it - I WILL join Groups that say Need Guide!


Be Self-Sufficient - Seems to be an upgraded BYOH {could also be downgraded but I'm NOT taking the chance} - NOT joining these groups either!


Flower-Sniffing has negative connotations - Hey I like Exploring Quests BUT I'm not taking 3 or 4 hrs to do so - I'm not interested in XP/Min though.
Unfortunately it's hard to convey this in LFM speak {Not typing Flower-Sniffing}.

So as the XP/Min crowd already have their Phrases/Acronyms the simple thing to expect is that ANY LFM that does NOT use said Phrases/Acronyms is NOT going to be looking for XP/Min!


Finally:
Pet Peeve...
Elite BB IP DOES NOT mean Zerg/BYOH - It simply means I've accepted that there's a lot of people who WON'T join groups that aren't already inside the quest and I've adapted to getting started and hoping people will join before I get to the End-Boss!

I WILL CLEAR as many mobs as I can!
I WON'T Invis and run straight past the first two or three rooms full of Mobs!
I WILL do MOST Optionals - If I'm missing any I WILL let you know before you get to them!
I WILL be using a Hireling - You can too BUT it's polite to ask {especially if there's only 1 space left and you calling a Hire will remove the LFM!}.



P.S. - There's already a lot of Hatred towards Hirelings - Making them provide an XP Penalty {and it will be seen as a Penalty!} is only going to make this worse!
Better Option - REMOVE the 5% Hireling Death Penalty instead!

[350zguy]

My brother got a +4 to +5 tome on a normal quest the other day with the +2 loot rolling.

If you want the UBER items, just give a +1 loot for 4 "PLAYERS" and a +2 loot for "6 players"

Then just ensure the loot tables give that 'bonus'.

Seeing a +5 tome out of a EPIC hard quest, was like... WOW!

[Tyrande]

[...]


It's susceptible to multi-boxers, but that's got to be such a small population I don't think it would be a bigger deal than it is now.

I supposed this can be checked. If all those boxes that has multiple logins coming from the same base router, disable those grouping bonuses.

[sebastianosmith]

I supposed this can be checked. If all those boxes that has multiple logins coming from the same base router, disable those grouping bonuses.

Except for those of us who have several players behind the same router... just sayin'. ;)

[jalont]

Can the issues of jerk players and players not running the quest as you like be solved in a different way other than a rating system?

Yes. By me not using the the LFM system.

I don't actually really want a rating system. I'm quite happy not using the LFM panel. But, there's a lot of people just like me, and for all the talk about how Turbine can get people to group, I really don't think they can. My issues are the same issues others share. The other thing Turbine can do is a complete game redesign that makes grouping mandatory to complete quests. I find this a lot more risky though, than keeping things the way they are.

[jalont]

Global LFMs have been mentioned three times now (more or less). Could this be the optimal initial LFM increasing design idea?

This would be a solution, but I'm not at all sure it's actually technically possible.

[Inthuul]

This would be a solution, but I'm not at all sure it's actually technically possible.

I think we could probably get an answer to this. If anyone has a connection to Turbine or a dev, feel free to ask.

Also, when this thread drops to the bottom of the general forums first page, I will summarize the ideas (and mentioned drawbacks) in my original thread for easy viewing.

[Inthuul]

Would a complete revamp of xp/min equalization across all quests increase grouping?

[350zguy]

Would a complete revamp of xp/min equalization across all quests increase grouping?

With the right character setup. (Not too hard to do.)

It is still possible/easier to just solo quests on Epic Hard, than it is to get a group member you have to worry is a dead-head, and will just sit at the door.

The fact you have to wait for people to run places, and wait at the quest door, and possibly wait for them to "take" the chain is the most "annoying" factors IMHO.

If they made it UBER EASY to just teleport into quests, move around the game easier, and access the content easier, it would promote much more questing, faster.

[redspecter23]

Would a complete revamp of xp/min equalization across all quests increase grouping?

Possibly.

Part of a TR life for many means a very strict leveling path. Deviation from the path leads to non optimal xp/min. I'm looking mainly at level 18-20 here. This is where grinding of specific quests becomes more beneficial. If Amrath and Cannith had more reasonable xp/min, especially on elite, then players would go out of their way to run the quests (and we'd have about 10 more quests in that range that are "worth it").

Elite Cannith and Amrath can be much easier with a decent group as mob hp starts to get a bit too inflated for soloists to keep a good xp/min ratio going. The rewards in these areas are just not worth the effort. I can go and get double the xp in half the time running a quest 2 levels lower (which is also much easier to solo or shortman). That's just plain illogical, unless of course, the xp curve is warped on purpose to push xp pots, but I could discuss at length how that is also illogical as well as poor game design.

[Tyrande]

Except for those of us who have several players behind the same router... just sayin'. ;)

Or DDO could put in a new grouping system like Neverwinter's. Go to the quest journal, click on a button Queue for <quest> with <difficulty>, a new dialogue opened informed you of an ETA. DDO will automatically picked random people from the queue and formed the party and automatically picked a party leader. Of course this system would have automatically assigned a party healer if none of the divine classes are available in the queue after a timeout period.

This is really going to be in the spirit of you don't know what you're going to get.

Once all 6 people are ready, a dialogue popped up indicating the time to join the party by pressing [OK], and then teleports directly to inside the quest.

If not enough people queued for the quest and there is a timeout period.

Using this system, people in the party would get the party bonus; and cannot be short manned. Scaling would not be in effect based on the number of people in the party.

P.S.: you will automatically be ported out of whatever quest you were working on previously and start on the new quest if the new quest is ready.

[Inthuul]

I didn't play City of Heroes but what about a sidekick system of some flavor? http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Sidekick
Anyone have any experience or opinions about if it would encourage grouping?

[Seere]

The core problem is lack of population, not lack of groups. As evidenced in this thread, everyone has their own perception and desire of 'how to play DDO' in their minds. Putting in place bonuses for groups meeting certain conditions only marginalizes the other group.

You have x amount of folks that want to group, you have x amount of folks that want to solo, and every shade of grouposity in between.

Global LFM is possible, see the MMO Rift for an example.

Free and nearly instantaneous server transfers are possible, see Rift for an example.

I am not an information technology person, but I can wager a guess that the above costs money and time. They have merged servers in the past, so it can certainly happen. Likely they will wait until summer is over at any rate, to get a better idea of the current trend before doing anything drastic.

On Cannith by the way, for reference. I understand some servers are pretty healthy for groups. Mine is not, in my opinion.

[Enoach]

To the OP - I don't believe any of the suggestions you gave will encourage grouping.




Remove scaling on elite.
I like this idea a lot and would even venture one step further - Remove Scaling{period} And in doing so actually set the dungeon's difficulty based on a 4 person party as it was initially stated all dungeons would be set towards.

This will put the challenge back into soloing :)

[Ralmeth]

I have an interesting idea on how to improve grouping...

The Problem
The current system of Bravery Bonus and Elite streaks, incentives everyone to:
1) Run quests 2 levels lower on elite
2) Only run those quests that you haven't run before, or farm a quest with good XP/min

So if you're running each quest once at each level, as you start checking off quests that you've run the list of available quests you want to run gets smaller and smaller, until you level up. If there's a group open, but it's a quest you've already run, then nope, you're not going to bother joining because you went get a BB and Elite streak bonus.

Also, because you need to milk all the XP that you can out of each level of quests, if there's a quest being run at a higher level, even though you could join, and know you would do fine, nope, you won't until you've finished the current level of quests that you're at. Or maybe it's just me that does this...?

Crazy Solution: Reset Bravery Bonus and Streak Bonus Every Day
Once a day you should be able to qualify for Bravery Bonus and Streak bonus on any particular quest, even if you ran that quest already the previous day, or the day before that, or the day before that, etc.. Yes! This is a crazy idea, and here's why I was thinking it would encourage grouping in a pretty big way. In a single play session, because there still is BB and a streak bonus, you would still be incentivized to run a series of different quests throughout your session. If you like repeating the same quest over and over for the best XP/min, you could still do that.

However, you would no longer have to worry about milking the BB and Elite streak XP out of every single quest at every single level. Every day you log in, if you want to go back and run some quests that you like over again, you could do that. More importantly:
1) Because you don't have to milk the XP out of every quest at every level, you could join a group that's not 2 levels lower, but any level within the level range and feel like you're not missing out.
2) If someone has a group open for a quest you've already run (a different day), you could join for the same XP as the first time you ran it.

Yes, some less than popular quests would not be run as a group, but that's already happening! If I want to run an off-the-beaten path quest, when I put up a LFM people just don't bother joining, even if I'm actively recruiting, it can be painful to get a group together. Imagine lots more LFMs of the popular XP/min quests, with people joining from a range of character levels. It would be like the raid trains of old, where you would join up with a group and run through a bunch of quests each day, except that you'll out level the content at some point and then move on to a higher level train. The limitation is that every day you would only get the bonus once, so you'd want to not necessary run the same quest over and over again.

Is this just a crazy idea? What does everyone think? Ah, the developers will probably never go for it, but it was just a thought.

[Qhualor]

Starting this thread to attempt to collect ideas for Turbine to encourage grouping. With the ultimate goal of increasing the amount of LFMs available to players.


I'll start.

Change the +10% Flawless Victory Bonus to only affect the character who died. Does this encourage teamwork? Maybe not. Does it encourage grouping? Maybe.

Create a new grouping bonus.
The leader of the party (most likely the creator of the LFM but not always) could get a +2% experience point bonus for every other player (not hireling) in the group, up to +10% experience for a full party in a normal quest.
Every player participating in a group that is not the leader could get a +1% experience point bonus for every other player in the group, up to a +5% bonus for a normal quest.
To keep experience in line, Raids (though grouping is necessary usually) could provide a +1% bonus for every other player in the group up to +11% with no "leader" bonus.

To encourage grouping outside of guilds or semi-static or static groups there could be an experience bonus for grouping with a player you have never grouped with before or haven't grouped with recently like within 30 days or some other time period.
This sounds like it could be more difficult to code than the above "grouping bonus" and I would encourage other ideas here.

For simplicity I will also mention ideas I have already seen;

Megaserver all players are moved to one server. Anyone with a technological background, feel free to comment on this idea.

Instanced LFMs that are cross server. Turbine would likely have to implement a way to pull characters directly into a quest from wherever zone they are in and then are placed in an instance of the quest with characters from other servers. This would have economic implications too, allowing items that can be traded to pass between servers. Other challenges would be cross server access to the shard auction house as that can be brought up from the DDO ampersand. (Maybe not in quests? Never tried it.)

I'm not interested in only discussing why or if LFM postings seem to be more infrequent. This has been discussed in other threads and should only be included here when relevant to the topic.

Thanks for reading this far. I'm really interested in seeing what the community ideas about this subject are.

Sol(insert relevant suffix based on character type here)
Sarlona

I understand that xp is what drives the players in this game, but we already have plenty of ways to increase our xp earned. we really don't need more. if there were some kind of grouping xp bonus just for being a leader or just for being in the group, it would just make it so more leaders would run the quest while others had to do nothing or if they did participate it could lead to more griefing if there were deaths.

people group because

1. quest is difficult and need/want help

2. company

3. multiple people to pull levers/switches

4. raids

5. faster completion or zerg xp/min

6. unfamiliar with the quest

7. loot pullers

8. ???

I think I got the biggest reasons why people group, but I still believe DS is the biggest reason why people group less. there are more guild/friend static groups today than there used to be. I see it all the time in my alliance chat before they resort to soloing or throwing up an lfm. change scaling to be challenging for a group of 4-6 players and I bet there would be an increase in pug lfms.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The majority of people who have posted to this thread should not be grouping with anybody IMO.

The Devs should not listen to any of the ideas presented here so far.

...although if you read between the lines, you can see what some of the real issues are game is facing....

For example... the feeling that people have to TR.
That they have to level back up to 20 as fast as possible.
That they need XP pots to do it... and XP pots have timers... so people feel an even greater need to rush through dungeons.

The +10% xp "bonus" for no one dying is.... kinda a fail for lack of better words. (sad.. but hard to dispute)

Bravery Bonus streaks are also viewed as essential. (which causes people to want/preasure others... to do elite, whether or not the party is ready for it or will find it an enjoyable experience.

Losing +10% no death "bonus" or various issues with BB causes bad feelings.... (granted I could care less about the type of people who have those bad feelings... but they affect the entire gaming community so should be considered.... I guess........)

Dungeon scaling may or may not be an issue... but since it seems that many people wanted to be able to solo more, it should probably be left as is...just take note of it....



Hmmm... not sure what else.....

While I see all of these things as problems with people and not the game.... one cannot ignore that the problems still exist.. and are hurting the game........

Not sure if anything can or should be done about these things...... but I guess it would be bad for business if we just sent them all back to that other MMO where they came from.......

:(

[jalont]

The majority of people who have posted to this thread should not be grouping with anybody IMO.

The Devs should not listen to any of the ideas presented here so far.


You are absolutely right.

The LFM problem (it really IS an LFM problem and NOT a grouping problem) stems from the playerbase. The vast majority of the playerbase has decided that they'd rather solo/fill from channel/fill from guild/fill from friendslist. This leaves a small minority having problems running the way they wish because there's not enough people who like their playstyle.

This isn't a new occurrence either. I was brought into this game two and a half years ago by friends from another game. At that time, I was brought into an endgame raiding guild, and even then, the consensus was that the pugscene was for noobs.

So while there's all this talk about what to do to make the LFM system better, the real thing people are trying to do is get people who do not want to use the LFM system to do so. This is a losing battle and something that will never happen. The best idea here was to make an LFM panel that serves all servers, and while I doubt that it's technically possible, it would be a great idea. That way, a playstyle that is unpopular will at least be able to operate at maximum capacity allowed by the playerbase.

[Vint]

Would a complete revamp of xp/min equalization across all quests increase grouping?

I highly doubt it would have much of an effect because of this…


THere's many factors that keep me from joining pugs with unknown people, and a potential loss of ten percent isn't one of them. They include, will this person be a jerk? Will this person want to do all the optionals and break everything, dropping xp/min to a horrible rate? Will this person run this dungeon in a suboptimal manner? I usually end up just deciding things will go better if I don't join the group. In order for me to start grouping with random people, I need something that answers these questions for me. The only thing I can think of would be an elaborate and accurate rating system that rates each toon.

I fall into the same category as this. Not tooting the horn, but if I can solo a quest, why bother bringing someone else that may do one of the above? I know that people will come out and call it antisocial and all that, but running into any of the above is not fun for me. If I am not having fun, why play?

You will always have zergers that join a learning LFM and you will have flower sniffers join the zerg LFM’s. Until you stop this, you will always have the problem. People just don’t want to take the chance and end up in a group with “that type” that ruins their fun. Some may like the box of choclates with pugs, but I am definitely not one of them.

[PermaBanned]

Would a complete revamp of xp/min equalization across all quests increase grouping?

I don't see why it would. Besides, xp/min is entirely too subjective as people run quests at different paces. A heavy armored pally going as fast as they can will get less xp/min than a barb-splashed sorc. There simply is no way to "fix" that.

[Frotz]

I don't see why it would. Besides, xp/min is entirely too subjective as people run quests at different paces. A heavy armored pally going as fast as they can will get less xp/min than a barb-splashed sorc. There simply is no way to "fix" that.
Just multiply completion time by some amount to directly award XP/min. :)
[Okay, with a flat completion bonus too.]

[Hafeal]

The majority of people who have posted to this thread should not be grouping with anybody IMO.

The Devs should not listen to any of the ideas presented here so far ...

While I see all of these things as problems with people and not the game.... one cannot ignore that the problems still exist.. and are hurting the game........

LOL. I agree, there is a problem, and it impacts new player experiences a great deal. I believe something needs to be done and the hinted at "Harbor revamp" by MajorMal indicates, to me, that they know its a problem.

There are a couple of things that are low hanging fruit, imo:




The +10% xp "bonus" for no one dying is.... kinda a fail for lack of better words. (sad.. but hard to dispute)


1) I could not agree more. While the idea of not dying should be rewarded, a worthy intent, actual game pay shows it to be a divider among the player base and harsh on new players. This xp reward should be re-designed, re-named, something. For example, if you complete all optionals, award an extra 10%.

2) Remove the penalty for joining a group in progress. While there may be some who could try to abuse this, given the game and where it is at, I think its time for removal has come.

3)
Remove scaling on elite. I agree. Aside from running significantly above level, even twinked uber players should be challenged to solo elite at level, even low and mid-levels.

4)
Bravery Bonus streaks are also viewed as essential. (which causes people to want/preasure others... to do elite, whether or not the party is ready for it or will find it an enjoyable experience.



If you want to encourage grouping then you need to remove BB honestly. Since the mechanic was introduced the PUG and group scene has dropped dramatically.

Yes, and yes.

5)
I may have xp pots running. Pots that I paid money for that dictate that I "should" be running as fast as I can to maximize my xp/$ spent. If I'm slowed down in any way, I'm losing money. Give me a way to stop that pot timer or mitigate my loss by helping out other groups or new players and that's the key to getting me to group up more.

Fair point. I wonder if they couldn't offer an xp pot with a 'pause' feature - for extra TP, of course. Although it would be a nerf now, I always thought they should have made the pots good for a # of quests rather than timed. Timers encourage solo and zerg play. Removing the timer would at least remove the barrier to this discouragement.

6)
Significantly increase the drop rates for named/extremely rare items and augments for every additional player in the party, with an additional bonus for full parties comprised of six separate players.

It's susceptible to multi-boxers, but that's got to be such a small population I don't think it would be a bigger deal than it is now.

I also like this idea and agree; loot is a big motivator. How many vets joined the proverbial Bloodstone runs? As long as explorers and quests both count, this is a big thumbs up. We are Monty Haul already, having some trickle down to the masses won't hurt.

[Qhualor]

LOL. I agree, there is a problem, and it impacts new player experiences a great deal. I believe something needs to be done and the hinted at "Harbor revamp" by MajorMal indicates, to me, that they know its a problem.

There are a couple of things that are low hanging fruit, imo:



1) I could not agree more. While the idea of not dying should be rewarded, a worthy intent, actual game pay shows it to be a divider among the player base and harsh on new players. This xp reward should be re-designed, re-named, something. For example, if you complete all optionals, award an extra 10%.

2) Remove the penalty for joining a group in progress. While there may be some who could try to abuse this, given the game and where it is at, I think its time for removal has come.

3) I agree. Aside from running significantly above level, even twinked uber players should be challenged to solo elite at level, even low and mid-levels.

4)



Yes, and yes.

5)

Fair point. I wonder if they couldn't offer an xp pot with a 'pause' feature - for extra TP, of course. Although it would be a nerf now, I always thought they should have made the pots good for a # of quests rather than timed. Timers encourage solo and zerg play. Removing the timer would at least remove the barrier to this discouragement.

6)

I also like this idea and agree; loot is a big motivator. How many vets joined the proverbial Bloodstone runs? As long as explorers and quests both count, this is a big thumbs up. We are Monty Haul already, having some trickle down to the masses won't hurt.

1. I would be fine with additional xp for completing all optionals. some quests already do this like Tear. but, some quests only have 1 optional.

2. IP groups with no late entry deduction would be highly abused. real easy to do. join. if you know a quest well enough, you can wait until people chat or talk about the quest. you can get a good idea how much longer before completion. you could ask. there would be drama for sure if a group is just starting and the leader says to hurry and jump in, we are almost done.

3. I agree with. elite is supposed to be the hardest difficulty. most heroic quests aren't very challenging for a decently skilled player.

4. BB is also an issue because theres no incentive to re-run a quest on elite after completing it, other than challenge for some and loot. I don't think it needs to go away, but redesigned. some groups usually stick together and hard farm or like in Vale, hit all the quests with the same group. I think more people are learning not to leave after every quest and instead, if the group is at least decent, continue questing together until the group breaks.

5. I don't really see a big deal with stopping the timer on xp pots. when I jump into a poor xp quest, I could pause it until I run a better xp quest. if im in a group that is painful and theres a chance of not completing, I could just pause the timer so not to waste more minutes. if Turbine was to do this, I think you should have to pause it before entering the quest and cant turn it back on until before you enter the next quest.

6. I don't think it would be fair to increase drop rates just because there are more people in the group. certain old rare drop rates do need to be bumped up, but it shouldn't be easier to pull rare items than the guy who wants to solo farm for the same thing. we already have enough loot drama in the game.

[ForumAccess]

Or DDO could put in a new grouping system like Neverwinter's. Go to the quest journal, click on a button Queue for <quest> with <difficulty>, a new dialogue opened informed you of an ETA. DDO will automatically picked random people from the queue and formed the party and automatically picked a party leader. Of course this system would have automatically assigned a party healer if none of the divine classes are available in the queue after a timeout period.

This is really going to be in the spirit of you don't know what you're going to get.

The problem with this is, even in Neverwinter no one uses this for the difficult dungeons. The only difference is that the dungeons don't start to get difficult until you are in the later Tier 2 epics. DDO is more difficult than Neverwinter by a massive range from level 14 on, which is the entire reason why no one uses the LFM panel. They don't want to group with people that are going to slow them down.

"The Problem with Grouping" isn't a problem with grouping at all. It is a problem with public grouping via the LFM panel. Namely, most or the people who know what they are doing have stopped using it. The only way that this is going to change is with a cultural shift in DDO's player base, not some ridiculous arbitrary rules to push people into grouping.

[Yalinaa]

"The Problem with Grouping" isn't a problem with grouping at all. It is a problem with public grouping via the LFM panel. Namely, most or the people who know what they are doing have stopped using it. The only way that this is going to change is with a cultural shift in DDO's player base, not some ridiculous arbitrary rules to push people into grouping.

This is the truth. I was pugging a lot, I still do LFM sometimes, but mostly I run with guildies / friends in game now. I would say 70-80% of the players are doing quests in static groups / guild groups. Many quests / raids are forming by inviting friends / or using user channels, so those one won't pop up in public grouping. Some plays only with family or real life friends. You can't force people to do public groupings, just because 10-20% of the players are still on the level of "public grouping or not playing at all". If you are in that 10-20%, you should consider first, are you in the right guild? Or are you on the right server? Don't force us (the majority), to do everything through public grouping, just because you can't find 2-3 people to share your playtime!!

[SlightlySycophantic]

I highly doubt it would have much of an effect because of this…



I fall into the same category as this. Not tooting the horn, but if I can solo a quest, why bother bringing someone else that may do one of the above? I know that people will come out and call it antisocial and all that, but running into any of the above is not fun for me. If I am not having fun, why play?

You will always have zergers that join a learning LFM and you will have flower sniffers join the zerg LFM’s. Until you stop this, you will always have the problem. People just don’t want to take the chance and end up in a group with “that type” that ruins their fun. Some may like the box of choclates with pugs, but I am definitely not one of them.

I am in in the exact opposite category as you two. I like to "smell the roses". I'm not into zerging or achieving the highest xp per minute. However, like yourselves, I think our end goals are the same; we play for the enjoyment (however that's defined).

I don't like the idea of "rating" a character, but there should be a way to make it extremely clear as to ones intentions and playing style. I think that might go a long way towards alleviating some of the anxiety with joining or creating an LFM.

[OwenMay]

This is the truth. I was pugging a lot, I still do LFM sometimes, but mostly I run with guildies / friends in game now. I would say 70-80% of the players are doing quests in static groups / guild groups. Many quests / raids are forming by inviting friends / or using user channels, so those one won't pop up in public grouping. Some plays only with family or real life friends. You can't force people to do public groupings, just because 10-20% of the players are still on the level of "public grouping or not playing at all". If you are in that 10-20%, you should consider first, are you in the right guild? Or are you on the right server? Don't force us (the majority), to do everything through public grouping, just because you can't find 2-3 people to share your playtime!!


Well, about half the pop is usually solo or in open lfm´s, the other half is shared by people which are in dungeons with hires, people in non lfm pug´s and people that grouped by other means. No one really uses anon.
From my experience, seeing who steps out of dungeons etc. most of those grouped would be solo with hires.


Pugs work very well in the first couple of levels which are more populated due to all the favor farmers and there being enough f2p quests that everyone can enter, can have a group going over several hours if you want to as they refill quickly if someone leaves, you level very fast so almost everyone of your level pretty much has done the same quests, no one is really equipment farming.
After that there are fewer players and those will be split by available quests, quests already done solo due to lack of grouping options, the need for specific equipment, flagging and so on, so that is when the lfm system becomes defunct.
Groups take to long to fill, to many people leave after just one quest for it to be even worth it to put up an lfm in the first place if you can somehow solo it. Doubt that many new players stay after encountering that part of the game.
The only way to fix it would be to broaden the player base for it.

[Philibusta]

THere's many factors that keep me from joining pugs with unknown people, and a potential loss of ten percent isn't one of them. They include, will this person be a jerk? Will this person want to do all the optionals and break everything, dropping xp/min to a horrible rate? Will this person run this dungeon in a suboptimal manner? I usually end up just deciding things will go better if I don't join the group. In order for me to start grouping with random people, I need something that answers these questions for me. The only thing I can think of would be an elaborate and accurate rating system that rates each toon.

"Suboptimal" is relative. How about "Will this person want to zerg through the quest at a majillion miles an hour, bypassing all the optionals (which give you more XP) and ignoring the breakables (which give you more XP) while whining about 'xp/min'? Will they be the kind of player that treats DDO as a job,, where they have to maximize production vs time? Or will they simply see DDO for what it is (a GAME....something to be ENJOYED?"

For some...the players that worry about things like xp/min are the ones that create "suboptimal" gaming experiences.

[Grahson]

It's not the game it's the players. I play this game to have fun. I play 99% of the time with guildies because I enjoy playing with them and I know what I'm gonna get. Don't get me wrong I like meeting and helping new players. The problem I have with the lfm is the know it all your toon sucks and the run thru the quest as fast as you can types.

Example just the other day I joined a group doing an epic elite quest. Soon as I joined I hear thru chat one member telling the other that he can run thru this quest with his uber toon and the reason they died is he did not buff him properly. Then he starting spouting off about the high lvl guilds he quit cause he was to uber even for them. What the other guy should do with his toon and on and on. I'm thinking great but I stuck it out. A couple more people joined. Started the quest and a few of us died because we sucked, of course the guy with the uber toon only died because he was lagin and the game sucks. A few minutes later I hear the comment directed at me "It would be nice if we had a real Druid". I should have left the group right there on the spot but I didn't. We finished the quest but I guess that wasn't good enough.

People like this is why the lfm is dying. I can group with friends and guild mates and not have to listen to this ****.

[Hafeal]

It's not the game it's the players ... People like this is why the lfm is dying. I can group with friends and guild mates and not have to listen to this ****.

Well, players like that have been around since Day 1. Anyone who thinks differently is fooling themselves. Seems to me that people focus on negatives, like your example. But how did you find other people and friends? For most, it was through lfm pugging.

Guilds and static groups are no guarantee of avoiding situations like yours. I have seen and read through the years of guilds imploding and friendships ending over loot drama or game drama of some type. Players change guilds everyday over the very issues like you raise.

I believe the devs should tweak the incentives to encourage more lfms. Yes, you will meet some jerks. You will also meet and make new friends. Isolationism in a game is no better than in life, imo.

[Blood]

Some of the ideas in this thread are good, but some are horrible. First, if you mess with dungeon scaling, you will basically eliminate the solo option. Like it or not, many solo because it's the only way they can play the game. I'm a single father with a household to run. I need to be able to park my toon in a corner, or near a shrine and attend to other responsibilities. When I run in a group, I need to give that group my undivided attention. There are already significant penalties designed into this game for people who solo.

Hurt the solo option, player base goes down by x%. x% less money for Turbine - everyone is hurt.

Second, at level Heroic Elite is already extremely challenging to 90% of players. In fact, when I solo, I rarely run at level elite, as the xp/min suffers. I don't have good gear (because this is the biggest penalty for playing solo), but I build my toons well.

Turbine has already made several expensive changes to the system to encourage grouping, while making the game solo friendly. Personally, I think they've done a very nice job steering this boat. The core problem is low server populations. Allowing LFMs to cross servers is a high probability solution, but would be significant programming. Server merges are cheaper.

The one and only incentive to group should be for social reasons. Fix the LFM problems by increasing player base. Increase player base by releasing more content (and a graphics face-lift would help too), and make all content solo friendly.

[Enoach]

...
I believe the devs should tweak the incentives to encourage more lfms. Yes, you will meet some jerks. You will also meet and make new friends. Isolationism in a game is no better than in life, imo.

I love running with my guild mates, I enjoy running quests with Channels I'm a member of. But I still join PuGs and form PuGs. To me in all the time I've been playing this game I've only met 2 Squelch worthy people and only one was an issue that required reporting - I don't take kindly to party abuse/abusive language.

I like PuGing myself for two reasons.
1. Learn new perspectives. Even as a long time player sometimes you can pick up some nifty tricks/short cuts from other players
2. Teaching new players tactics that can help them both in the current quest as well as quests to follow.
3. Meeting more players some of which you want to meet up with again.

[Tyrande]

The problem with this is, even in Neverwinter no one uses this for the difficult dungeons. The only difference is that the dungeons don't start to get difficult until you are in the later Tier 2 epics. DDO is more difficult than Neverwinter by a massive range from level 14 on, which is the entire reason why no one uses the LFM panel. They don't want to group with people that are going to slow them down.

If people don't want to use the grouping tool, they do not get the say, +20% random grouping bonus. It can be entirely optional.



"The Problem with Grouping" isn't a problem with grouping at all. It is a problem with public grouping via the LFM panel. Namely, most or the people who know what they are doing have stopped using it. The only way that this is going to change is with a cultural shift in DDO's player base, not some ridiculous arbitrary rules to push people into grouping.

Yes, most of the people with 20+ TR past lives with uber equipment and lots of time and knows what they're doing (since they have done it a lot of times)

That's why the system needs to be modified for the people with less past lives and less available time so that they can be rewarded with more XP when grouping since they completed dungeons slower (or prefer to run slowly) and needs a group due to the lack of equipment and/or lack of skills.

[Gkar]

I agree with getting rid of the 5% and 10% penalties. We should get nothing for Turbine's bad AI deaths and keeping the 10% to the dead person is good for grouping.

Other than than, only eliminating dungeon scaling (which they won't do since the created that to make all dungeons solo friendly) would be of any use. Right now it is usually easier to solo (especially on norm/hard) than it is to group, so most choose not to group. Soloing (especially on elite) using to be for the real pros only.

Little grouping bonuses for the group leader will probably only make things worse as the "leader" wants to wait for that last person or two to get his 2% that no one else gets and the rest of the group will just bail and join another group or solo. It would also make the "I won't join until the group is almost filled" problem worse as people will know its more likely they will wait around forever.

[Hoglum]

It looks in game like most people are soloing or perhaps running with a hire. I check the who list fairly frequently and there are plenty of people on most of the time. Dungeon scaling & making the game solo friendly seems to be working as intended. People have a tendancy not to want to do things with strangers.

I suspect those who do are the fringe feaky type people. Think about most things in life. You don't see people going out to dinner and sitting down with strangers at their table. You generally don't go to a bar and drink with people you don't know. Who shows up at a church with sign saying "looking for wife"? Haha, just kidding about that one.

The point is though, some people seem to have the idea that because it's a video game, social dynamics change. Yes, to a certain extent that is true. I just doubt all that many people really care about pick up games. Even in basket ball, pick up games are usually the same people who frequent a court & not so much random strangers. Once people find their guild, static group, etc. they probably don't give much of a hoot about this stuff.

Turbine is spot on about making the game short-person/ solo friendly. It's nice to have the grouping options but I highly doubt many paople really care to group with strangers much.

TL;DR Tubine should not do anything whatsoever to encourage grouping. People who want to get on, make friends & group are quite welcome to AS-IS. Maybe try being nice & fun to play with/quit crying that someone got better treasure than you.

[Nahiz]

Like it or not, many solo because it's the only way they can play the game. I'm a single father with a household to run. I need to be able to park my toon in a corner, or near a shrine and attend to other responsibilities. When I run in a group, I need to give that group my undivided attention.

Second, at level Heroic Elite is already extremely challenging to 90% of players. In fact, when I solo, I rarely run at level elite, as the xp/min suffers. I don't have good gear (because this is the biggest penalty for playing solo), but I build my toons well.



I´m the same kind of player... you don´t happen to play on G-land, do you?

[Hafeal]

First, if you mess with dungeon scaling, you will basically eliminate the solo option ... There are already significant penalties designed into this game for people who solo ...
and make all content solo friendly.

The only real penalty to solo are the handful of quests that require 2 real bodies to complete.

The suggestion to remove scaling on Heroic Elite, is a good one, imo. It originally was that way as I recall and it was supposed to stay that way. Wasn't it a bug that there was elite scaling and just left that way? I can't recall right now. If you are good enough to solo Elite content bravo; otherwise, that should be an extreme challenge to do solo, except for the very best players. Elite should mean you pause before clicking it - that deep breath before the plunge.

I don't believe making all content (i.e., raids) soloable is a good idea, at all. It would only be another element of devolvement of this game into a single person, non-mmo. MMOs, imo, are meant for parties and should not cater to soloists.



The core problem is low server populations ... Fix the LFM problems by increasing player base. Increase player base by releasing more content (and a graphics face-lift would help too)

I am certain they are trying what they think will work to increase the player base. It may not be working, but I am sure this is a goal of theirs.

[HAL]

I supposed this can be checked. If all those boxes that has multiple logins coming from the same base router, disable those grouping bonuses.

Na, not enough ppl multiboxing to risk dissing family groups, college kids, etc.

[Fedora1]

I´m the same kind of player... you don´t happen to play on G-land, do you?

I am similar as well, and I am on G-land. Time zone EST. On most evenings. I can usually do 30-60 minutes at a time, then may have to attend to other business for 15-20 minutes, then back for another hour. Etc. Pretty random, which is another reason I solo a lot.

[Begin rambling story]
Got in a marathon run last Saturday that really taxed me. lol
I decided to run with my guild leader and an officer (his gf) as they had TR'd again and were at L7. I had been wanting to try a battle cleric (as I otherwise always play melee based builds) so this was my first "divine". I warned them I had never played a cleric before and they were cool with that. So we did my all time least favorite quest chain - Carnival. We were joined by a druid who loved the chain. lol

Anyway, we ran the whole chain with me loathing every minute of it (except it was nice to get the favor on a chain I normally skip entirely) and the other 3 players knew the quests well enough so I just merrily followed along. Then we did a random quest or two, then headed over to run the Necro chain. At this point the group fills up and it becomes a race to the end with the party splitting up 2-3 different directions. This cleric I'm on only has 10% striders, and using clickies just slows me down although expeditious retreat is worthwhile. So I am racing all over trying to keep up with looting chests, tossing occasional heals (which weren't really needed as it seemed everyone was pretty self-sufficient and multple TR's). Anyway I had been soloing a little before I started grouping so I have now been sitting in game for like 6 hours straight with no break. lol

After the Necro chain they all ran off to run some more quests but I was drained. I had to drop out, take a bio brealk and grab some grub. lol

/endoflongofftopicramblingstory

[Veles]

The suggestion to remove scaling on Heroic Elite, is a good one, imo.
90% puggers die or don't contribute with current scaling, there is almost no way to survive some elite traps with full scaling.
Trappers can't get traps, divines are not willing to join unknown pugs NOW.
Folks that don't want to group much or wait would do so even less, or drop to hard streak. Or get trapping skills on every toon for heroics.
What is your idea for DDO ? Log in, then wait for 20 mins to start anything ? Because you don't have perfect party ?

[Hoglum]

I don't believe making all content (i.e., raids) soloable is a good idea, at all. It would only be another element of devolvement of this game into a single person, non-mmo. MMOs, imo, are meant for parties and should not cater to soloists.




I believe the contrary. All mechanics which inhibit solo play should be removed. "MMO" is losing its original meaning. More and more games are going online. Neverwinter did. Skyrim will be online. Game developers would be wise to make sure their product caters to people who solo. It will simply frustrate someone who buys an action pack, enters and dungeon, then has to recall simply because he/she cannot stand in four place at the same time.

This only serves to annoy people and drive off customers. The option to group is there. People who want to group will. People who don't want to, yet feel forced to group, will leave. It's not rocket surgery folks. I want as many people playing and paying as possible. There are no better games out there right now than DDO & it can thrive just fine if a million people play, pay and never group. It can also die if one hundred people who always group are the only ones on.

Lots of grouping or lack of grouping in and of itself does not indicate a thriving or dying game. In a solo friendly game it might just mean people don't wish to group. I'm sure Turbine is fine with that as long as they're paying.

[Chai]

I believe the contrary. All mechanics which inhibit solo play should be removed. "MMO" is losing its original meaning. More and more games are going online. Neverwinter did. Skyrim will be online. Game developers would be wise to make sure their product caters to people who solo. It will simply frustrate someone who buys an action pack, enters and dungeon, then has to recall simply because he/she cannot stand in four place at the same time.

This only serves to annoy people and drive off customers. The option to group is there. People who want to group will. People who don't want to, yet feel forced to group, will leave. It's not rocket surgery folks. I want as many people playing and paying as possible. There are no better games out there right now than DDO & it can thrive just fine if a million people play, pay and never group. It can also die if one hundred people who always group are the only ones on.

Lots of grouping or lack of grouping in and of itself does not indicate a thriving or dying game. In a solo friendly game it might just mean people don't wish to group. I'm sure Turbine is fine with that as long as they're paying.

The problem isnt people who solo -vs- people who group. Turbine found a good way to handle that, until....

....people who solo started posting that they were entitled to the same benefits (namely Xp / minute) as the people who group. They want to be able to solo Running With the Devils, on elite, on their first run, with no chance of failure. Then Crucible was...well....Crucibled® - to make it easier for first time soloers.

If people stuck with the N/H/E program there would be no issue with soloers -vs- party players in DDO. The soloers didnt stay in their lane however, and due to their entitlement based feedback over the years, the game got dumbed down to where its a liability for the Xp/min crowd to take other players along for the ride.

[Hoglum]

If people stuck with the N/H/E program there would be no issue with soloers -vs- party players in DDO. The soloers didnt stay in their lane however, and due to their entitlement based feedback over the years, the game got dumbed down to where its a liability for the Xp/min crowd to take other players along for the ride.

The unfortunate thing about the N/H/E deal is that favor is based on which difficulty a dungeon is run. A player who plays hard with or without a group still plays hard.

In groups, pikers in elite dungeons get better rewards than people who solo on normal.

Go figure.

[Ed_Conn]

I've only been playing about two months, and not sure I have any fixes, just observations. So with the risk of being flamed:

I prefer playing in groups. The static group I play with, and the guild I play with have been great. My hats off to those players. Knowing I'm new they have been patient, helpful, and the reason I have spent money buying adventure packs. If it hadn't been for them I would have quit the game before spending a dime.

I have several problems with the pugs and don't know if they are fixable. I play for fun, not interested in most xp, leveling quickly, or quickest time.

Finding groups that match my experience is one of my bigger problems. I have never been in a pug where we had to figure anything out or were taken by surprise. There is always someone in the group that knows the quest or just solves the problem before I know there was a problem to be solved. I don't blame them, I assume they know the quest and are watching out for the group. Most times I solo it is just to learn the quest. Maybe having a newbie box or experience box on the LFM would be helpful, like the classes wanted.

I also find some groups lack communication or even stick together. I don't know if this is a leader problem, or grouping problem. But I have entered quests where players go off on their own, with seemingly no cooperative play. More like several people doing the same quest as opposed to a group doing it together.

One of the problems on my end is time. it seems a lot of the quests are chained and it is difficult to find pugs that can start a chain on short notice. I joined a pug that didn't want to start a chain until the group had certain classes. Ended up waiting so long most people left before the quests started. Not sure it is workable, but maybe if the chained quests were more like Korthos where you needed to do several quests, in order before you could move to the final quest would be helpful.

Despite the seeming issues, I like grouping. Many of the PUGs I have played with have been good and most of the players I have met have been great. No question there are jerks out there. I just let them be and leave the group. It would be nice to see changes that could make grouping easier, or should I say more to my liking;)

[hp1055cm]

Starting this thread to attempt to collect ideas for Turbine to encourage grouping. With the ultimate goal of increasing the amount of LFMs available to players.

Megaserver all players are moved to one server. Anyone with a technological background, feel free to comment on this idea.
Instanced LFMs that are cross server.
Sol(insert relevant suffix based on character type here)
Sarlona
+1

See even if we dont merge servers lets say. I dont see why grouping can't use 2-3 other servers. So you pick one of the highest and 2 of the smaller ones etc to pool from.

+1


This should be a high priority for Turbine. There isn't any reason I shouldn't be able to play with all available players.
I run PUGs all the time with 1-3 others or hirelings because I can't fill groups; especially pay-to-play content.

Aeromach - Thelanis Server

[ForumAccess]

That's why the system needs to be modified for the people with less past lives and less available time so that they can be rewarded with more XP when grouping since they completed dungeons slower (or prefer to run slowly) and needs a group due to the lack of equipment and/or lack of skills.

So you plan to empower people who lack the gear or skill level to make it through a dungeon at a reasonable pace is to offer a large XP bonus for grouping? And in doing so, reward people who are able and interested in soloing the entire thing, even with full party scaling, for hitting that LFM and then simply running off and soloing it anyways. Granted, this rarely happens already, with people wanting some kind of ego trip from 'showing off'. But if this behavior is rewarded by game mechanics then it will become much more common, and most people do not enjoy such wildly different cross play styles.

The entire "LFM needs a reward" theme really is a problem of cross play styles. The people who like to PUG are finding that there are not enough people who play the way that they do to find quick groups. So they want those who are perfectly happy with the way that things are to be forced to form groups the way that they do, and they want them to play with their play style. Should an XP bonus for using the LFM system ever actually be implemented they would be right back on the forums again, whining about how other people's choice of play style is ruining the game for them.


The only real penalty to solo are the handful of quests that require 2 real bodies to complete.

The suggestion to remove scaling on Heroic Elite, is a good one, imo. It originally was that way as I recall and it was supposed to stay that way. Wasn't it a bug that there was elite scaling and just left that way? I can't recall right now. If you are good enough to solo Elite content bravo; otherwise, that should be an extreme challenge to do solo, except for the very best players. Elite should mean you pause before clicking it - that deep breath before the plunge.
Elite already has very little scaling, relative to Hard. I think that removing Elite dungeon scaling would be a very good idea. The only difference that most people would see would be a slight raise in monster HP, and trap and spell damage. Those who find it a cake walk still would, but those who were on the fence between getting one-shot by Disintigrates would probably drop down to Hard.


I don't believe making all content (i.e., raids) soloable is a good idea, at all. It would only be another element of devolvement of this game into a single person, non-mmo. MMOs, imo, are meant for parties and should not cater to soloists.
I am not sure where you get the idea that anyone wants raids to be scaled to be soloable. I have never seen any indication of that, aside from a couple of out-of-touch individuals. Many raids ~are~ soloable, but this is just a byproduct of power creep and not something that was designed for in any way.

Quests, especially those required for flagging, absolutely should be made soloable. There are a lot of quests that simply do not get run, so if new players want to see the content they typically will have to do so on their own. Locking quest content behind party locks is fun when the quest is new and everyone is eager to run it, and frustrating as soon as it moves into 'old news' phase.

[Tyrande]

So you plan to empower people who lack the gear or skill level to make it through a dungeon at a reasonable pace is to offer a large XP bonus for grouping? And in doing so, reward people who are able and interested in soloing the entire thing, even with full party scaling, for hitting that LFM and then simply running off and soloing it anyways. Granted, this rarely happens already, with people wanting some kind of ego trip from 'showing off'. But if this behavior is rewarded by game mechanics then it will become much more common, and most people do not enjoy such wildly different cross play styles.

Then those people that won't go with the group will get booted by the party leader. What's the problem there?



The entire "LFM needs a reward" theme really is a problem of cross play styles. The people who like to PUG are finding that there are not enough people who play the way that they do to find quick groups. So they want those who are perfectly happy with the way that things are to be forced to form groups the way that they do, and they want them to play with their play style. Should an XP bonus for using the LFM system ever actually be implemented they would be right back on the forums again, whining about how other people's choice of play style is ruining the game for them.

Its optional to group. If people want group XP bonus they can PUG, if not, they can still solo without the party bonus.



Elite already has very little scaling, relative to Hard. I think that removing Elite dungeon scaling would be a very good idea.

Yeah, elite should have no scaling.



I am not sure where you get the idea that anyone wants raids to be scaled to be soloable.

I have read on the channels that there are some minority people that wanted raids to be solo'able. With so much power in EDs and Epic (power creep) gears I guess its very possible now for older raids.

[Ralmeth]

I would be open to the proposed idea of remove scaling on elite. Quests being more difficult should encourage people to want to group up (and I like difficult quests). However, if they do this they should also remove the streak system (just increase the 1st time bonus to compensate, perhaps). This way if you're playing at an off-time and groups are hard to fill, or you want to solo and can't handle elite without scaling, one could run quests on hard without worrying about breaking your streak.

[PermaBanned]

If cross-server pugging isn't doable, and a server merger is out of the question for appearances' sake, how about this:

A server reorganization?

Add notes or designations, ie:
•Wayfinder - New players (default choice) pug server - Learning & Mentoring.
•Thelanis - TR/Heroic pug server - Balanced party/full quest exploration.
•Cannith - TR/Heroic pug server - Zerg/speed questing.
•Sarlona - Epic pug server - Balanced party/ full quest exploration.
•Argonnessen - Epic pug server - Zerg/speed questing.
•Khyber - TR/Heroic solo & private party server.
•Ghallanda - Epic solo & private party server.


I realize that I left Orien off the list, and the names were effectively "picked from a hat," no real purpose for which names I chose, I just needed some server names.

The point is sort of a "birds of a feather flock together" mentality. I'm thinking if we could somehow funnel people of similar playstyles to congregate on the same server - after "graduating" from the new player server - it could help alleviate some/a lot of the "I don't like it when (X) kind of player joins my group," issues. As some quests and most raids require some level of grouping, those on the solo/private party servers would have the option to pug up spot fillers as a last resort if needed, and be fairly assured that they're getting someone of a similar mindset. People who prefer heroic content would be in one place, as would epic/end gamers. People who want balanced parties would be with others who want the same, flower sniffers & zergers would be out of eachother's way, etc...

To facilitate this, I'm thinking all Turbine would really have to do is the following:
•Add the recommended play-style commentary to server descriptions.
•On Wayfinder, you can earn (perhaps by reaching current level cap?) a once per account free character transefer to the server that best suits your playstyle/interest.
•VIPs could receive a (once per (X) time frame) character transfer as a membership perk.
•Everybody would need a one-time free transefer at the time of the reorganization.

What do all y'all think? Plausible? Ludicrous? Wouldn't solve anything or maybe has potential?

[Hafeal]

I am not sure where you get the idea that anyone wants raids to be scaled to be soloable. I have never seen any indication of that, aside from a couple of out-of-touch individuals. Many raids ~are~ soloable, but this is just a byproduct of power creep and not something that was designed for in any way.

I was responding to this:


... make all content solo friendly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People have a tendancy not to want to do things with strangers ... I suspect those who do are the fringe feaky type people.

Huh? MMOs are designed to put you in play with strangers. Tell, how well do many really know their guild mates? Certainly other MMOs don't appear to have the "playing with strangers" fear you are inferring. The only freaky thing about playing an MMO is the thought you won't have to interact with complete strangers. Geez, forget the entire game, the whole internet is about interacting with strangers. What would be freaky is someone who does not understand that.


What is your idea for DDO ? Log in, then wait for 20 mins to start anything ? Because you don't have perfect party ?

How did it go from incentives to group to waiting for the perfect party? :confused: I don't wait, I will take the first 5 of all stripes for my play style. But, if someone wants to wait for a healer, or trapper, or DPS, then that is their perogative. Just as is soloing. Again, more incetnives to group is what an MMO is about. Which gets to:


I believe the contrary. All mechanics which inhibit solo play should be removed. "MMO" is losing its original meaning. More and more games are going online. Neverwinter did. Skyrim will be online. Game developers would be wise to make sure their product caters to people who solo. It will simply frustrate someone who buys an action pack, enters and dungeon, then has to recall simply because he/she cannot stand in four place at the same time.

This only serves to annoy people and drive off customers. The option to group is there. People who want to group will. People who don't want to, yet feel forced to group, will leave. It's not rocket surgery folks. I want as many people playing and paying as possible. There are no better games out there right now than DDO & it can thrive just fine if a million people play, pay and never group. It can also die if one hundred people who always group are the only ones on.

Lots of grouping or lack of grouping in and of itself does not indicate a thriving or dying game. In a solo friendly game it might just mean people don't wish to group. I'm sure Turbine is fine with that as long as they're paying.

I disagree. What about the people driven off because of a lack of groups and greater incentive to solo than group? Soloers are also only 1 play style. Driving people to solo rather than group is a cause of a lack of player retention more than a good thing for an MMO, imo. PnP D&D was about getting together with others and having an adventure. The MMO was designed to bring you together to share the adventure with others - not play by yourself to avoid dealing with social anxieties or a fear of strangers.



The people who like to PUG are finding that there are not enough people who play the way that they do to find quick groups. So they want those who are perfectly happy with the way that things are to be forced to form groups the way that they do, and they want them to play with their play style.

Nah. I want an MMO to encourage grouping, which, imo, is the purpose of an MMO. If DDO decides to franchise a version of the game and make it a single player game or console game, great. I am not saying people can't or shouldn't solo if they want. Go right ahead. As an MMO, though, I think the incentive to group should be greater than the incentive to solo.

[Qhualor]

Cannith and Argo would be flooded with players and every other server would be like Wayfinder. exaggerated? maybe but that's the impression of preferred play styles in todays DDO.

the problem with getting players on a server with similar play styles is that same play styles can still differ. ill use myself as an example. when i solo, if im in a quest i know well and know my character shouldn't have problems with damage taken from mobs, i will zerg. i still play that quest like i do with every other quest. i will get that 100xp optional. get every breakable, trap and kill every mob for max xp, but i can still zerg and do that. so theres zerging for xp/min and theres zerging for max xp because the quest isn't too challenging. i could still fall under Cannith and Argo, but i rarely come across players with the same play style as me.

[Zakharov]

A few suggestions:



Remove all scaling (there's already multiple difficulties to choose from)
Allow favor gains to stack each run up to the Elite value
Lower/remove Bravery Bonuses - this plus favor gains above should limit the 'need' people feel to always always run everything on elite
Raise general XP for hard/elite so people still have incentive to run it without feeling forced to every time just to maintain bb streak
Continue the trend of separate loot for each difficulty - again still incentive to run hard/elite but not forced and you could always come back to do it later
Change all xp pots & similar items to be 'x number of uses' instead of time limited - if a pot gave 50 'charges' of its bonus usable over 50 quests but with no time limit people would feel less rushed and less discouraged from grouping with slower moving pugs
Add a minor xp bonus for each real party member (hires don't count)



Hopefully these would encourage grouping without making it onerous.

[Vint]

I want an MMO to encourage grouping, which, imo, is the purpose of an MMO. If DDO decides to franchise a version of the game and make it a single player game or console game, great. I am not saying people can't or shouldn't solo if they want. Go right ahead. As an MMO, though, I think the incentive to group should be greater than the incentive to solo.

This is an interesting predicament though. With the divide of “soloer” versus “groupers” you affect many play styles. Either of the two can be hardcore, casual, zerger, or sniffer. If you eliminate the reward for a soloer, you are alienating more than the “elitist jerks”.

While there may need to be something done, I do not think it should cost losing more people. If people are told that they must group to get the “same reward” as the groupers, I think they would walk. Not all soloers hate puggers. They have rl going on around them, have a disability or any other number of reasons why they do not want to be bothered. People can say they should not play an MMO is they are going to be antisocial, but again, can we afford lose more people?

[Tyrande]

[...]

While there may need to be something done, I do not think it should cost losing more people. If people are told that they must group to get the “same reward” as the groupers, I think they would walk. Not all soloers hate puggers. They have rl going on around them, have a disability or any other number of reasons why they do not want to be bothered. People can say they should not play an MMO is they are going to be antisocial, but again, can we afford lose more people?

Soloer would quit because they don't get the same grouping XP bonus? ... They really want to have the easy cake and eat it too, eh?

P.S. I am not saying myself don't solo, which I do sometimes; and I find grouping more fun. BTW, I won't quit if they increase grouping XP bonus and change XP pots to be X users/pot instead of 3 hours or 6 hours time limit.

[Hoglum]

Huh? MMOs are designed to put you in play with strangers.

Read my first post. Times change, the nature of MMOs will change too. As more games go online, the novelty will wear off. People want to play good video games, but many don’t/won’t want to play with strangers.



What about the people driven off because of a lack of groups and greater incentive to solo than group? Soloers are also only 1 play style. Driving people to solo rather than group is a cause of a lack of player retention more than a good thing for an MMO, imo. PnP D&D was about getting together with others and having an adventure.
People might be driven off because of lack of groups. People who like to group should take it upon themselves to make sure they put up lots of LFM’s, make friends, etc. Don’t go asking the game maker to make people play with you. DDO makes it quite easy to group. I do it myself very often.

People choose to solo or group and it looks like a lot of the people saying they are soloing are doing it more out of play style incompatibility than anything else. You say people soloing causes a lack of player retention. I believe this could be true to some extent but how many people would leave if they couldn’t solo? Turbine put dungeon scaling in for a reason. I’d bet they know how many people solo vs. group & probably have some good stats guiding their decisions.

PnP D&D was about getting together with others, sure. Then they invented computerized Dungeon Masters so they didn’t HAVE to get a group together.

The typical social norm is to generally NOT do things with strangers. This is not out of fear, this is how most social activities are handled in society. Like I said, people tend to go to dinner, have parties, go to the movies, etc. with people they know, not complete strangers. I simply think that as MMO’s progress, game makers will realize this is how people are and they will adjust accordingly.

That being said, I’m pretty much on board with removing incentives NOT to group. I don’t think the 10% xp penalty helps the grouping scene. I also have some doubts about the effects of the bravery streak. I’d even support all the servers “merging” somehow so people can group easily. Even though I believe people like to do things with people they know rather than with strangers, you do have to get to know people in the first place too, right? Yes, even if you go to a party with your buddies, you might want to meet some new people there & perhaps expand your friend list.

I don’t, however, believe you should have to step on four pads all at once or pull four levers, etc. to get through a dungeon. That’s just asinine, as is making scaling so extreme that people couldn’t possibly survive without help. I know people who won’t play these games because of this perception. I’d rather have them on and paying than sitting around beating their old Dungeon Siege game to death.

The purpose of an MMO is to make money, not “encourage grouping”, no matter what you think.

[PermaBanned]

The purpose of an MMO is to make money...
Really!?... and here I thought they were run by not-for-profit charity foundations...
/sarcasm off

So your basic premise is that MMOs are dropping the "massively multiplayer" and simply moving to "online game." Yah, I actually see that. Obviously it makes the most (financial) sense to appeal to the largest audience possible. While that would ideally mean an equal appeal to soloers and groupers alike, it comes at a cost when done retroactively.

Check the quest descriptions at the entry points. Most say what type of party they're (originally) intended for, often including a recommendation for the dreaded "balanced party." "Solo" used to be it's own difficulty designation, where "casual" is now; that's because they were designed to be run by groups and had to be simplified for the soloist. Soloing Elite was an accomplishment rather than a given. That should tell you the originally intended target audience of the game, ie "groupers." Yes, time has passed. Obviously, Turbine saw a financial motivation for retooling the game to suit soloists, but in doing so has also obviously made the game less appealing to groupers.

Had Turbine started out with the "appeal to both" approach, many of these complaints about changes to suit soloists wouldn't exist. Instead, Turbine had to alter it's game so instead of appealing to both equally, they're alienating some to appeal to others; the net effect of which doesn't seem to be overwhelmingly popular.

[Pooklebunny]

You want to increase groups? Make it a bannable offence for guys to comment on the fact when they hear a female voice. 50% of the population of the world will love you for it.

[Azarddoze]

Allright my idea won't be a way to encourage grouping but more a picture of what's going on and the lack of respect from the player base. I will use a WoW comparaison so that maybe more people will understand the point I want to bring.

In WoW there is a minimum "ilvl" needed to enter certain heroics dungeons/raids which creates a barrier for people that won't contribute enought to be worth a spot. Even a worst problem in DDO because of the scaling. Also in DDO, there are no such barriers and people are free to join whatever they want without providing any proof of what they can really bring.

So the respect starts here: When someone posts a LFM for the highest difficulty (elite), wouldn't it be good to at least know what you're getting into? Like have done it before on normal/hard?

I still do open all my LFM with just "Elite" or nothing at all so that enveryone feels free to join but I am starting to feel cheated by new players or simply players trying to run stuff above their skills/gears level. It's not even that this ends up as failure, it's just... I'm getting tired of it and that's maybe because I personally wouldn't join something unless I know what i am getting into.

I've seen a couple of people expressing this point of view, maybe being targetted as elitism while this is not the case at all. Do I jump in a normal group and start zerging till the end just to screw the group's fun? I don't. Why is the other way ok? So with all that in mind, there is no way people will stop joining those elite groups because they want more exp or to get carried (or whatever the reasons).

It is in fact the players that are the cause of the problem and I don't see any way Turbine can fix that withtout giving us the right to be mean and boot someone whenever we want (even in quest). Then that wouldn't really change anything.

Player have to realize what they are worth, what they can achieve and then play within their "field". At least when it comes to playing with strangers (PUGs).

Because even a PUG is composed of... YEP! Humans.

[DakDeFrosted]

Can someone explain to me what the purpose of Dungeon scaling is besides discouraging groups? How can the issue of lack of LFM's be addressed when the game is designed to encourage soloing?

[Citzen_Gkar]

Can someone explain to me what the purpose of Dungeon scaling is besides discouraging groups? How can the issue of lack of LFM's be addressed when the game is designed to encourage soloing?

The stated purpose was to enable people to solo because Turbine said their exit survey showed people were quitting because it was too hard to play unless you wanted to group.

[pHo3nix]

Can someone explain to me what the purpose of Dungeon scaling is besides discouraging groups? How can the issue of lack of LFM's be addressed when the game is designed to encourage soloing?

Dungeon scaling does not discourage groups; it discourage grouping with people that aren't worth the added scaling. Grouping with other 5 good players is usually faster/better than soloing. How many times do you get 5 other good players in a PuG though?

Azarddoze is right: there's basically a lack of respect towards others. I would never join a group for a quest if i'm not sure i can contribute enough.

[Fedora1]

Grouping with other 5 good players is usually faster/better than soloing.

I found this out on Saturday. In a full group (2 guildies and 3 puggers) I think we ran 6 quests in the time it would have taken me to solo 2 of them.

[darthhento]

1. Disable death penalty to effect an entire group (as well as reentry)

2. Give better xp for higher level quests

3. Remove BB while providing more xp for first time bonuses

4. Give the ability to "pull" a player into the quest as it takes way too long to explain to a new player where the quest is situated.

[Azarddoze]

1. Disable death penalty to effect an entire group (as well as reentry)

2. Give better xp for higher level quests

3. Remove BB while providing more xp for first time bonuses

4. Give the ability to "pull" a player into the quest as it takes way too long to explain to a new player where the quest is situated.

1. I think it's fair to say that trying to aim for not dying is a good thing and I don't see how removing this could help. Would most likely add some lazyness / random zerg because people "wouldn't care" anymore. "Why should I wait for this noob... Even if he dies..."

2. While I agree the XP should be rebalanced, this has nothing to do with helping groups.

3. BB is a good thing, feeling like it is a MUST is another. But I understand that when you're on your 3rd life+ you have to get that xp somewhere and it won't happen with running stuff on normal. But the more XP you give on the hardest difficulty, the more people without skills/gears will have an even better incentive to jump in.

4. Not a bad idea but could be limited by Turbine's technology. I don't see how it would help grouping in general though. Maybe avoid some frustration (waiting) but that's about it. I don't see this preventing someone from joining a LFM he wants to join.

It's a good thing to look for solutions but spotting the problem first kinds of help.

Edit: Thinking about it, removing re-entry for all the group would just open the door for exploits. And I can also see some "suicide" move going on without the group death penalty as well.

[darthhento]

~snip~

Regarding:
1. It's not like anyone cares now anyway. New player gets into zerg group, gets left behind, dies and gets immediatly booted with profanities about him dying. Dying isn't necessarily a bad thing. That's how I learned where all the traps in quests are.

2. It does since average TR zerger will farm good xp/min quests 6 or more times while an average PUG will give up after two runs. More xp per quest will give incentive to keep the original group going.

3. No, it's not a good thing. If you see a group doing hard or normal you will not join them since it will break your streak. Now if first time bonuses were higher you would get the same xp but wouldn't matter if you ran norm, hard or elite first. You would still run elite once for favor.

Regarding re-entry, I think you misunderstood me. You currently have a 10% Persistence bonus which affects the party if nobody re-enters the quest. And you have 10% Flawless Victory if nobody dies. There are griefers that will kill themselves, and re-enter just to mess with your xp. This way it would only affect them and not the entire group. This way if YOU haven't died or re-enter YOU would still get YOUR 10% Flawless Victory and YOUR 10% Persistance.

[Azarddoze]

Regarding re-entry, I think you misunderstood me. You currently have a 10% Persistence bonus which affects the party if nobody re-enters the quest. And you have 10% Flawless Victory if nobody dies. There are griefers that will kill themselves, and re-enter just to mess with your xp. This way it would only affect them and not the entire group. This way if YOU haven't died or re-enter YOU would still get YOUR 10% Flawless Victory and YOUR 10% Persistance.

I understand what you said but never had to deal with a griefer re-entering. On the other end let's say you're failing at the end of a quest and are out of shrines... I don't think it's fair that someone takes a penalty but then can come back and change the whole outcome for the whole group.

For the rest, I guess we'll have to agree that we see it differently heh. Except maybe for BB where I still am not 100% certain of the impact it has on everyone. As for me: I don't run Elite just for the BB but for more exp/fun in general. I don't find the act of facerolling content enjoyable.

BB or not, the way I see it is the difficulty setting should be a way in itself to filter the playerbase... but it is not the case most of the time. So now people are scared to post their LFM for the reasons we've read so far in this thread or others.

[Fejjj]

I'd like to chime in and toss my hat into the ring.

From personal experience, I will list why I won't (don't) group more than I do for Turbine reps to consider or ignore.


- Bravery Bonus. This is the biggest factor by far. I, like many others will not break my streak when I know I have good content coming up. I don't want to loose the bonus. If it was removed, I would likely join the group running chain XYZ on hard rather than wait for a group running on elite, but since I have not hit it this life, I will wait.

- 12 year olds. I have no desire to run with children. I am an adult player looking to enjoy my experience with other adults. I realize this is hard to control, which is one reason why I stay away from random people on the LFM.

- I zerg. I play fast and hard and have a very hard time slowing down while flower sniffers check around that corner. More people means more mobs, and inflated HPS (thanks to scaling). More often than not randoms are less likely to be able to handle themselves. I don NOT like to wait 20 minutes between quests. This keeps me grouping with my guild, or my friends list more often than the LFM panel

- Guilds. Why look outside the guild when you can complete quests with like minded people in 1/2 the time of a PUG, with no XP loss.

- Please Share. /facepalm

[Ralmeth]

Can someone explain to me what the purpose of Dungeon scaling is besides discouraging groups? How can the issue of lack of LFM's be addressed when the game is designed to encourage soloing?

In PnP, a benevolent DM would adjust the difficulty of an adventure to match the party going through a quest, at least that's what I did and every DM I came across. So this is the same idea as dungeon scaling. Having said that, I do think (as we all do) that something should be adjusted / tweaked to encourage more grouping.

I do not think removing of all scaling is a good idea. I remember the days before we had scaling. Everyone was incentivized to only run in completely full groups of 6 people, because every person you added made the quest go smoother / faster. There was plenty of waiting around for that 6th spot to fill, and I would not want to go back to those days. Also, when I was a newer player this was discouraging because invariably you would get into groups with zergers, when you wanted to take your time exploring the quest.

The system needs to support letting people play how they want. At this point, the system is just a little too solo / non-PUG friendly.

[Inthuul]

Eliminate Bound to Character on Acquire. This item type discourages being able to be flexible about what character/class you bring to the group. (Besides it being an incredibly frustrating loot mechanic for a player and therefore likely not a good design.)

[SiliconScout]

In PnP, a benevolent DM would adjust the difficulty of an adventure to match the party going through a quest, at least that's what I did and every DM I came across. So this is the same idea as dungeon scaling. Having said that, I do think (as we all do) that something should be adjusted / tweaked to encourage more grouping.

I do not think removing of all scaling is a good idea. I remember the days before we had scaling. Everyone was incentivized to only run in completely full groups of 6 people, because every person you added made the quest go smoother / faster. There was plenty of waiting around for that 6th spot to fill, and I would not want to go back to those days. Also, when I was a newer player this was discouraging because invariably you would get into groups with zergers, when you wanted to take your time exploring the quest.

The system needs to support letting people play how they want. At this point, the system is just a little too solo / non-PUG friendly.

I think the biggest problem is the WAY they scale.

As a DM I would generally change the numbers and perhaps composition of an encounter based on the party (though there were times when I certainly didn't). What I didn't change is the actual stats.

For example if I am playing with Goblins and Orcs. Then I might have more of one than the other or include a Warg rider here or there but one Goblin was as tough as the next.

With DDO not only to they scale the encounter size they scale the monster difficulty. They should jsut do one or the other IMHO. By doing both they are making it infinitely easier to solo because not only do I get fewer mobs to smash through they are individually weaker.

I think that they should let the difficulty determine the CR and the number in the party determine the encounter size. And scaling should only happen on solo, norm and to a limited degree Hard. Let Elite stand on it's own the quest is as tough as it's going to be if you have 1 or 3 or 6 players.

same goes for the epic scales.

I honestly thought that was how it was supposed to work originally anyway.

[Charononus]

Eliminate Bound to Character on Acquire. This item type discourages being able to be flexible about what character/class you bring to the group. (Besides it being an incredibly frustrating loot mechanic for a player and therefore likely not a good design.)

Not btcoa leads to situations like neverwinter where people ninja loot to sell everything and then buy their gear, no thank you.

[Qhualor]

I'd like to chime in and toss my hat into the ring.

From personal experience, I will list why I won't (don't) group more than I do for Turbine reps to consider or ignore.


- Bravery Bonus. This is the biggest factor by far. I, like many others will not break my streak when I know I have good content coming up. I don't want to loose the bonus. If it was removed, I would likely join the group running chain XYZ on hard rather than wait for a group running on elite, but since I have not hit it this life, I will wait.

- 12 year olds. I have no desire to run with children. I am an adult player looking to enjoy my experience with other adults. I realize this is hard to control, which is one reason why I stay away from random people on the LFM.

- I zerg. I play fast and hard and have a very hard time slowing down while flower sniffers check around that corner. More people means more mobs, and inflated HPS (thanks to scaling). More often than not randoms are less likely to be able to handle themselves. I don NOT like to wait 20 minutes between quests. This keeps me grouping with my guild, or my friends list more often than the LFM panel

- Guilds. Why look outside the guild when you can complete quests with like minded people in 1/2 the time of a PUG, with no XP loss.

- Please Share. /facepalm

I was fine with everything you said until "please share". you talk about moving fast and don't like to wait around between quests, but you don't like sharing a quest to someone so they don't have to run to the quest giver, grab the quest and than run to the quest?

[Qhualor]

Eliminate Bound to Character on Acquire. This item type discourages being able to be flexible about what character/class you bring to the group. (Besides it being an incredibly frustrating loot mechanic for a player and therefore likely not a good design.)

I would rather see BTCoE go away. its fine in high level loot because if I equip it to my character than he will probably use it for a long time and I specifically look for certain items for specific characters. when I see it on low level loot when I might be level 6 one day and level 7 a few hours later, its not worth binding it to him when I share my gear with all my characters. ive seen some decent items I would have worn on my lowbies, but ill just sell it to someone else instead.

[Charononus]

I was fine with everything you said until "please share". you talk about moving fast and don't like to wait around between quests, but you don't like sharing a quest to someone so they don't have to run to the quest giver, grab the quest and than run to the quest?

Both of you have points, some quests this makes sense for like relic of a soveriegn past or whatever it's called, however I've lost track of the absurd number of times I've had a pug up for vale quests looking for company and gotten asked for a share.

[Qhualor]

Both of you have points, some quests this makes sense for like relic of a soveriegn past or whatever it's called, however I've lost track of the absurd number of times I've had a pug up for vale quests looking for company and gotten asked for a share.

yeah, ive been in groups before when that has happened. its no big deal to me. im one of those helper types. but, I know where every quest is in Eberron and where the quest givers are. don't ask me how to get through Demonweb or Sschindylryn though. ive been playing for almost 4 years and a very experienced player that has run those quests a bunch of times. I just don't know how to get there.

[Inthuul]

Not btcoa leads to situations like neverwinter where people ninja loot to sell everything and then buy their gear, no thank you.

What is the down side? Do you really feel it's better to rely on charity or random rolls to get the items you want?
Actually, I think the loot system may deserve it's own thread.

Not to take DDO back to PnP, because it's pretty far deviated from that, but when you get an item in PnP you don't want, you trade or give it to a party member, which bind on equip still allows, or you sell it, which bind on equip allows. Though unfortunately now you will likely need to use the shard auction house as plat appears to be almost useless.

[Charononus]

What is the down side? Do you really feel it's better to rely on charity or random rolls to get the items you want?
Actually, I think the loot system may deserve it's own thread.

Not to take DDO back to PnP, because it's pretty far deviated from that, but when you get an item in PnP you don't want, you trade or give it to a party member, which bind on equip still allows, or you sell it, which bind on equip allows. Though unfortunately now you will likely need to use the shard auction house as plat appears to be almost useless.

That works for pnp grouping but mmo's are different and require different things. Low level average gear I have no problem with btcoe, high level btcoe should be extremely extremely rare and not the standard.

[ForumAccess]

What is the down side? Do you really feel it's better to rely on charity or random rolls to get the items you want?

It does seem like people should have to actually quest for the things that they want. Having a large number of people running the quests for more than a week or two after the content out is a very good thing for the game. As was seen with the current model, quite a few people came back for Update 17. They ran the epic Gianthold stuff for 3-5 weeks, and then promptly vanished from DDO again. Anything that they did not pull they were able to trade whatever items the had pulled for very easily, leaving them no reason to stick around with so much of the game (Cap increase, Enhancement Trees, TRing, etc) being up in the air.

[Qhualor]

It does seem like people should have to actually quest for the things that they want. Having a large number of people running the quests for more than a week or two after the content out is a very good thing for the game. As was seen with the current model, quite a few people came back for Update 17. They ran the epic Gianthold stuff for 3-5 weeks, and then promptly vanished from DDO again. Anything that they did not pull they were able to trade whatever items the had pulled for very easily, leaving them no reason to stick around with so much of the game (Cap increase, Enhancement Trees, TRing, etc) being up in the air.

it may have been talked about back when EGH came out, but we didn't know any of the details behind it like we do now. we knew the new enhancements were eventually coming and maybe cap increase this year, but no date was confirmed. we have known more about whats coming this year in the past month or so than we did back in February.

[LeadHeros]

1. Disable death penalty to effect an entire group (as well as reentry)

2. Give better xp for higher level quests

3. Remove BB while providing more xp for first time bonuses

4. Give the ability to "pull" a player into the quest as it takes way too long to explain to a new player where the quest is situated.

I have the 'flower sniffer' mind set. I play for the journey, not the end.

1. In theory, the BONUS provides some incentive for the more capable players to support the new/weaker.

2. Yes. And the xp/min or xp/ease of completion' should be closer together. This might promote a larger variety of quests being run. On the other hand, players who can do a life in a month or 2 (this boggles my mind) would complete faster, and Turbine wants people logged on (or buying stones) so that isn't in their best interest.

3. Abstain, I'm not a TR.

4. Like 'bracelet of friends'? But if you never had to go to quest givers, there is less incentive to learn the quests, and less of a 'real world feel'.

The LFM does offer everything people need to group; if you want to. I see a lot of BYOH, zerg etc; and I know I am not going to contribute to those groups. The players who complete a quest in 10 minutes, that would take my level of player an hour are not going to want me with them, and they are probably in the best position to find groups. Be explicit in your quest description and don't join a group that you don't fit into. And this goes both ways. The newer/casual people are going to have to step up and start groups that say; non-zerg, don't know it, and the zergers should not join. When that happens, the newer/casuals can find a network of like minded players. There is a very large gap in power/ability between Fejjj and I, yet the same game has to accommodate us both. The rude and immature will have to be dealt with as best we can.

I like scaling since it 'should' make the effort the same for any size party.

[Frotz]

Maybe a neutral term like "Fast" could be added as a flag to LFM postings, with a corresponding filtering checkbox so people looking for "Fast" quests with the box checked won't show non-Fast quests as eligible even. It wouldn't be perfect, but would be more polite to tell someone they shouldn't have checked that box, and more justifiable to tell others that they should've.

[FranOhmsford]

It does seem like people should have to actually quest for the things that they want. Having a large number of people running the quests for more than a week or two after the content out is a very good thing for the game. As was seen with the current model, quite a few people came back for Update 17. They ran the epic Gianthold stuff for 3-5 weeks, and then promptly vanished from DDO again. Anything that they did not pull they were able to trade whatever items the had pulled for very easily, leaving them no reason to stick around with so much of the game (Cap increase, Enhancement Trees, TRing, etc) being up in the air.

From what I've seen in this thread it seems that the consensus is that Epic Gear should NEVER be Auctionable i.e. BtCoA
BUT
That for lower levels this isn't an issue!

I'd like to go somewhat further and ask the Devs what the heck they were thinking when they decided Min Lvl 1-10 gear should be Bind to CHARACTER on Equip / Acquire?

DDO positively pushes multiple characters per account {and the multiple character accounts are definitely spending more per player than single/two-four character accounts {yes there's a lot more of the second type}.

Bound to Account also incentivises the acquiring of the Shared Bank {more money for Turbine}!

When I joined DDO back in 2010 BtC was a necessary Evil BUT it has since become ubiquitous! Even when items quite obviously don't have the power to deserve it!

BtCoE was a nice idea in theory BUT again it has been totally overused {there are simply so many Lacerating items in the game {ALL BtCoE!} that AHing them takes forever even at barely over Vendor prices!}.

BtCoE has been used on Random loot - A Huge Mistake as you get some BtCoE items that are vendor trash!

AN EXAMPLE:

Tempest Spine Loot was upgraded - Some very nice upgrades too {others could easily be consider a downgrade though - Yes I'm looking at Maelstrom!}.
BUT this is NOT End-Game!
Lvl 8-12 Loot {Sands incl.} SHOULD NOT be so ridiculously hard to get!
P.S. Every time I run TS I get items I can't use {I put them up for roll and it's a SURPRISE if anyone rolls - Usually first to ask gets on End Chest as he/she will be the only one NOT recalling out!}.
On the other hand ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY rolls on items like the Goggles of Perception!

Now...
With the old Tempest Spine loot - It could be hard to acquire - I've rarely seen ANYTHING drop in there before the upgrades!
BUT
It was available on the AH {Usually at OK Prices - though sometimes Overpriced yeah}
AND
With new TS being BtCoA this is an impossibility!
BASICALLY
You've made acquiring this gear HARDER rather than EASIER {Which I believe was your stated goal at the time} - Epic Fail there!


What you have succeeded in doing is getting OVER-LEVELLED Players to FARM the Heck out of a Lvl 10 Raid to grab loot for their NEXT TR!

So - Epic Levels cuts out the Lvl 20s running VoN 5 Heroic just to get into E-VoN 6 {and ADQ1 for ADQ2 though I'm not sure if this has stopped}
BUT
That's alright cos now they can FARM TS Instead?

There's INSANE amounts of XP available at Lvl 9-15!
Run TS more than twice and you're basically losing XP elsewhere!
Frankly once on Elite and done is enough for 1st and 2nd Life Characters!



KEEP BTC for END-GAME ONLY!
Use your INITIATIVE for Lvls 14-19
BTA for Lvls 4-13
NO BINDING WHATSOEVER for Lvls 1-3 - There's simply no longer any point!

OH and LOSE BtCoE! It's been a MASSIVE MISTAKE!



One more option:

Soloers and Groups that are known to each other aren't going to be HURTING ANYBODY by looting whatever they want - Allow us to mark our Groups as
Lootable
OR
Non-Lootable
OR
As Is!

Lootable = NOTHING is BTC whatsoever - EVERYTHING is BTA on ACQUIRE {Goes for NAMED items and SPECIAL Loot - Tomes, GS Ings and the Like - ONLY}.
ALL LOOT IS PARTY LOOT!
Party Leader can be given the option to distribute Loot as per PnP as Everyone in Group will have signed up for this!
OR
Everyone in Party is given a Roll and Players pick one item each {Highest Roll first etc.} till all items are taken! {if player drops out/leaves quest NEXT player carries on!}.


Non-Lootable = EVERYTHING {Named and Special} is BTC on ACQUIRE!}
Rolling on items in Chest is allowed BUT is done by IN-GAME ROLL with Person item dropped for marking said item as "Up for Roll"
That person then has absolutely NO say over who gets said item - ANYONE Who wants it can Roll and the AI assigns the Item to The Highest Roll!
IF NO-One Rolls - Item is Re-assigned to the NEXT Party to Open said Chest! {ADDED not REPLACING Anything!}.


As Is = No change from how DDO Distributes loot as is!

[Wanesa]

Remove scaling on elite.

/signed

[Njohrd]

1. Remove scaling on elite (and set difficult for 4 players party)
2. Auto share on joining the LFM
3. Auto set journal to party quest just shared

this can be start point

[Inthuul]

It does seem like people should have to actually quest for the things that they want. Having a large number of people running the quests for more than a week or two after the content out is a very good thing for the game. As was seen with the current model, quite a few people came back for Update 17. They ran the epic Gianthold stuff for 3-5 weeks, and then promptly vanished from DDO again. Anything that they did not pull they were able to trade whatever items the had pulled for very easily, leaving them no reason to stick around with so much of the game (Cap increase, Enhancement Trees, TRing, etc) being up in the air.

I sincerely hope that items are not the only reason that people run particular content. If that's the general case, some other design goals may need to be looked at.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I sincerely hope that items are not the only reason that people run particular content. If that's the general case, some other design goals may need to be looked at.

Of course not... most content is actualy run for XP.

/sigh

[OzmarDDO]

Give XP bonus for each player in group.

Done.

-Ozmar the Simple Solver

[Teh_Troll]

Get your heads out of the idealistic sand.

Loot is the reason stuff gets run REPEATEDLY.


Not talking 10x for XP, talking 100s of times.

[JOTMON]

Add incentives/remove obsticles for having a full party

-Remove dungeon Scaling. balance quest for a full party.. deal with it. solo at your own risk.

-Full party chest Loot bonus

-Balanced Party XP bonus ( no 2 or more same primary classes in group) small bonus to not greatly discourage non-optimal parties.

-xp/min is not balanced, Turbine needs to do a historical analysis on average completion times for quests.. adjust XP so longer quests reward more.

-Additional Bonus Loot/XP for completing all available optionals/objectives in quest.

-Random quest bonux XP days - take random quests that have low attendance and periodically give them a day event super bonus, like xp or a bonus end chest with super high drop rates for non-standard goodies like ddo store stuff, unique skins/pets, shards, dopants, non-bugged uber items like the no-min level bta +4 stat rings that used to drop in Lordsmarch , whatever....show me the eye candy.... stuff that makes me go... oohhh i want that....

[Charononus]

I sincerely hope that items are not the only reason that people run particular content. If that's the general case, some other design goals may need to be looked at.
Here is the basic truth about that.

Get your heads out of the idealistic sand.

Loot is the reason stuff gets run REPEATEDLY.


Not talking 10x for XP, talking 100s of times.

That said the problem you and the other idealists have is that you are looking at it from pnp perspectives not an mmo. MMO's are not pnp and never will be. Loot is the primary motivator for endgame quests. Yeah some quests are fun as well, but a fun quest that doesn't have good loot tends to not be ran. Look at TOD, most everyone agree's that it's a fun raid, and when the loot was relevant it was run all the time. Now it's ran once in a blue moon for kicks. It's still a fun raid, but with no loot that is useful to most everyone it just isn't ran now. Loot is the motivator for mmo's and always will be regardless of how fun a quest is.

[BillyBlaze]

Why do people wait for a full party to do raids.

It would be a lot easier to short man them for a lot of players.

There is an incentive to have a full party for raids. Better chance for named loot to drop if more people are in the group. The loot is bound to character so a lot of loot is up for roll.

No one seems to have a problem with raids having an incentive for more people.

So we know they could make incentives to grouping to work if they wanted too. They will have to find a way to spin grouping as a good thing.

I do not think Turbine wants to make an incentive for grouping with non-raid content.

People who predominately solo will look at bonuses to grouping as a punishment for their play style. Sense they will not get the bonus they will complain. Why should I have to group with people when I don’t want to.

Turbine just doesn’t want to deal with this.

I am so glad that the competition for MMO’S is ratcheting up and DDO is going to have to step up to the plate and go in directions they are uncomfortable with to keep up.

Hopefully incentives to grouping will be one of them.

[Nahiz]

IMHO, pugs are useful mainly to newbies and casual players (in small guilds). Vets and ubers (even any player in big/active guilds) don´t get much from pugs in most situations. But everybody, from newbies to ubers, would pug more if they were able to set an LFM according to their playing style.

To diminish the "chocolate box" effect of surprise, LFM panels should include a simple set of choices to precise the playing style of the pug party. Yes, you can type "BYOH, zerg, flower sniffer" or whatever, but this categories tend to be unknown for most newbies/casuals and they are not clear enough. There are many threads explaining what BYOH means, from just being able to heal yourself to be uber with top notch gear, know the quest to perfection and supposed to dont die by any chance.

And, most important, it´s one thing to type whatever you want and another to set formal options on the LFM panel.

So, upon posting a quest on the LFM panel, the would be leader should be able (but not forced) to choose between some options to let the possible joiners (?) know which kind of playing style is desired. Thinking these "options" is the crucial thing. What i can think of is:

Knowledge/dedication to the game (you can select one or all, all being the same as none):
-Newbie/casual/vet/uber or first life/hero/legend/.../completionist and/or mostly unbound/named bta/raid gear ... etc.

Pace of the run:
-Learning/medium/fast/zerg

Knowledge of quest:
-None/min/good/perfect

Hirelings
-Hireling/no hirelings

Maybe choosing "uber" on the first option is all you need in some cases, but i think the more information, the better. Specially for newbies and casuals.

There are no perfect solutions, but knowing what kind of pug you are getting into is key.

BTW, I´m a casual player. A dedicated casual player in a small guild, that is.

[Blood]

I found this out on Saturday. In a full group (2 guildies and 3 puggers) I think we ran 6 quests in the time it would have taken me to solo 2 of them.

Yup - that's the reality. For some reason, people on this thread think that forcing people who solo to PUG will solve what ever imagined problem it is they are having. Removing dungeon scaling will only result in people quitting the game. You want to be in a party when you play? JOIN A GUILD. There have been so many insults directed at soloers in this thread, I want to PUG even less.

[Hafeal]

Yup - that's the reality. For some reason, people on this thread think that forcing people who solo to PUG will solve what ever imagined problem it is they are having. Removing dungeon scaling will only result in people quitting the game. You want to be in a party when you play? JOIN A GUILD. There have been so many insults directed at soloers in this thread, I want to PUG even less.

From what I have read in this thread, most want dungeon scaling off for elite.

The biggest problem is xp and the relationship with the BB and streaks. Even soloers want to do elite to start and keep their streaks. The devs put themselves in this bind.

Guilds are not the problem solver - I am in several guilds across the servers. MAC, on Khyber is one of the largest for example, and it is no guarantee enough players are on and able to group. And guilds have plenty of their own drama.

[Inthuul]

Yup - that's the reality. For some reason, people on this thread think that forcing people who solo to PUG will solve what ever imagined problem it is they are having. Removing dungeon scaling will only result in people quitting the game. You want to be in a party when you play? JOIN A GUILD. There have been so many insults directed at soloers in this thread, I want to PUG even less.

I would like to reiterate that the title of the thread is "Ideas to encourage grouping" NOT "Solutions that Turbine needs to implement now to force people to group." or "Solutions to eliminate solo play."

Frankly, there are many times I like to solo too. I, and I think many other contributors on this thread, only want to increase the DDO population and for Turbine to succeed. Will the ideas in this thread help that? Maybe.

Not that I can do anything about it, not having forum thread admin, but I have been keeping track of the temperature of this thread. It would be great if everyone could keep contributing without it bursting into flames.

Thank you to everyone who has participated in this thread thus far!

[Azarddoze]

Yup - that's the reality. For some reason, people on this thread think that forcing people who solo to PUG will solve what ever imagined problem it is they are having. Removing dungeon scaling will only result in people quitting the game.

At this point it feels like people who pugs are the ones against the soloers. Is it because their pugs are failing since the good players aren't there? Maybe, maybe not. I also think that since soloing is a big part of the reality of the playerbase, removing that part would hurt much more Turbine then leaving it like it is atm.


You want to be in a party when you play? JOIN A GUILD. There have been so many insults directed at soloers in this thread, I want to PUG even less.

Guilds are not for everyone. Some good players like to pug, believe it or not, because it's a neccessity... or it's well needed at least to keep the game rollin. Helping is something that can be fun. Also it's refreshing sometimes to fall on good individuals with who you spend a couple hours and enjoy the questing much more. Also there are independant people who just like to log in and do their things without contacting their whole friend/guild list. There are... different reasons to pug.




I believe it still comes down to people with like-minded playstyle and skills should stick together in their respective difficulty. And I will repeat myself that this is only when it comes to playing with strangers/pugs and not with guildies/friends. The problem is exp. Even the worst player needs it once at 3rd life+ and the "only" effective (no stone/100 xp pots) way to get it is to step in elite quests and keep a streak.

Maybe difficulty level and xp shouldn't be related, I don't know. But I sure see a problem that just can't be treated by any mechanics that won't restrain people OR change something to the xp required.

Edit: DDO is the only game in which anyone can get carried in the toughest difficulty without contributing while success will still be ensure by some. What if that difficulty was actually end game. Kind of makes sense with acquiring gears and past lives after multiples TRs.

[bsquishwizzy]

I'd like to go somewhat further and ask the Devs what the heck they were thinking when they decided Min Lvl 1-10 gear should be Bind to CHARACTER on Equip / Acquire?


That stuff is actually pretty good gear, and I'd keep it around for a new life (especially if I was doing the same life again).

[bsquishwizzy]

From what I can see, it looks like a lot of people are making the assumption that new players PUG, and that might be the crux of the problem.

I’m not what one would consider a new player, but I like to PUG. Problem is that the PUG scene is not what it used to be. I mean, I get lucky now and again, but for the most part it is pretty hard to find a PUG you know will fill (or come close to it). And there seems to be more issues now with them than before.

I’ve got a fairly static group now, but I have several alts. This means that – for various reasons – they will remain parked as I will only run one toon with them.

Vale seems the easiest to find a group for, and a lot of that has to do with the XP it gives out. And you have a fair mix of newer players and experienced ones doing the runs. So, that seems to indicate – to me – that some people are correct that there is XP involved somewhere in this discussion. And if that’s part of the equation, nothing suggested here – aside from a Dev change to XP in other quests – nothing mentioned here will change that.

PUGs can be fun, or they can be frustrating. I think that if the experienced players are avoiding PUGs to avoid newer players, I think that’s just a shame. There is more to this game then having 17 completionist alts.

[bsquishwizzy]

From what I can see, it looks like a lot of people are making the assumption that new players PUG, and that might be the crux of the problem.

I’m not what one would consider a new player, but I like to PUG. Problem is that the PUG scene is not what it used to be. I mean, I get lucky now and again, but for the most part it is pretty hard to find a PUG you know will fill (or come close to it). And there seems to be more issues now with them than before.

I’ve got a fairly static group now, but I have several alts. This means that – for various reasons – they will remain parked as I will only run one toon with them.

Vale seems the easiest to find a group for, and a lot of that has to do with the XP it gives out. And you have a fair mix of newer players and experienced ones doing the runs. So, that seems to indicate – to me – that some people are correct that there is XP involved somewhere in this discussion. And if that’s part of the equation, nothing suggested here – aside from a Dev change to XP in other quests – nothing mentioned here will change that.

PUGs can be fun, or they can be frustrating. I think that if the experienced players are avoiding PUGs to avoid newer players, I think that’s just a shame. There is more to this game then having 17 completionist alts.

[Nascoe]

Raise the % chance of Rare encounters appearing based on how many people are in group, in both explorer areas and quests.

I know this won't really matter to the zerging playstyle (might even hurt it a bit in some quests), but it will bring more flower-sniffers together.

I like this idea - it does not disturb anyone who wants to solo it (being on a XP-bonus timer, they would probably not go for optionals anyway), but it does give you that tad better chance at getting a bit extra treasure and XP from the rares.

[FranOhmsford]

That stuff is actually pretty good gear, and I'd keep it around for a new life (especially if I was doing the same life again).

SOME OF...

Is Good I'll agree.

BUT A lot of it is UTTER TRASH!

Taking my Tempest Spine Example - The Elemental Mithral Breastplate with the RIGHT Augments added is simply PHENOMENAL!
The other Armours? Not so much!

It seems that absolutely EVERY Min Lvl 8 Named Armour in the game has been given a Blue Slot - Sorrowdusk, Threnal, TS, Relic's FREE Nightforge Armours!
Obviously we're going to find the BEST one and use that one - Which clearly makes ALL the others POINTLESS!


IF the Devs had added BtCoE or Even Acquire to ONLY the very best* gear there wouldn't be an issue
BUT
They went mad and added it to EVERYTHING incl. Random Items!

*BTW I would say "Hardest to Get" BUT Nightforge Gear is VERY EASY to Acquire and completely F2P so Immediately undermines a number of the NAMED RARE ITEMS in Sorrowdusk, Threnal, Sands and TS {which are much much HARDER to Acquire!}.
And has ALWAYS been BTC on Acquire!