State of Melee Focused Clerics? [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

axel15810

07-07-2013, 01:04 PM

Flavilandile

07-07-2013, 01:57 PM

if you looked at the first ( alpha ) enhancements, then nothing has changed when it comes to melee clerics.
They just activated a Cleric Spellcaster tree that wasn't active initally.

axel15810

07-07-2013, 07:30 PM

if you looked at the first ( alpha ) enhancements, then nothing has changed when it comes to melee clerics.
They just activated a Cleric Spellcaster tree that wasn't active initally.

Yeah I did notice that. I'm disapointed they didn't replace the Protector tree with a Warpriest tree.

Impaqt

07-07-2013, 08:56 PM

unbongwah

07-08-2013, 10:38 AM

I doubt the Dalai Lama will approve, but: DEATH - TO - PACIFISM! Seriously, Radiant Servants are already implicitly lowering their DPS (melee or caster) by spending feats & enhs on healing; why explicitly penalize them further? Outside of Savants, I haven't noticed any other PrE abilities which have that sort of penalty.

</threadjack rant>

Vargouille

07-09-2013, 10:14 AM

There's no intended nerf of melee clerics. We realize there are some issues to address to ensure that comes to pass.

We're working on the plan. More to come.

rest

07-09-2013, 10:24 AM

There's no intended nerf of melee clerics. We realize there are some issues to address to ensure that comes to pass.

We're working on the plan. More to come.

It's the unintended nerfs that hurt the most.

Atremus

07-09-2013, 10:45 AM

Defensive Strikes as it stands right now makes the battle cleric look like great fun. The actual Protection Tree will probably be revamped shortly to make the battle healer just as fun after the update as they are now.

ArcaneArcher52689

07-09-2013, 10:49 AM

all my clerics are "Battle" builds of one form or another...

I am hugely disappointed in the trees I'm seeing so far.

I do see some nice 13/5/2 builds working though... but if you want to play a deep cleric.. You are gonna be a healbot it looks like.

So, could someone please explain to me how clerics are being "nerfed" exactly?

They're not getting any melee enhancements, i get that, but they're also not LOSING anything, since they never had those melee enhancements to begin with. The only two things I can see are that the lose divine might, and that pacifism core ability is terribad. But other than that, i really don't see how a melee cleric will be any different than they are on live?

jalont

07-09-2013, 10:55 AM

It's the unintended nerfs that hurt the most.

Another person who hasn't played with the new system, I see, and yet feels as though they are qualified to speak. Nice.

Some points.

1.) Melee divines are gimp builds in the hands of experienced players. They give up DPS for an overabundance of healing ability that isn't needed. This game isn't hard. Sacrificing a large chunk of that healing ability to increase DPS is always a better option for people that can make it work.

2.) Very little of a melee divine's power comes from current divine enhancements. The vast majority comes from splashes/feats/racial enhancements/ and EDs.

3.) Keeping point two in mind, the current version of the enhancement pass actually BUFFS melee divines. The ability to go deeper into melee trees at a cheaper cost will INCREASE melee DPS. This isn't theoretical. This is built and thoroughly tested. Melee divines will see an increase in DPS when built properly.

4.) For people who wish to see a melee pre, what would it look like? Would it have equal DPS as other toons, while still keeping the unequaled healing ability? If so, that would obviously be a horrible balancing decision. What else would this pre do? Give you subpar dps while having unequaled healing ability? Melee divines already have this. So I'm not sure what exactly the problem is.

unbongwah

07-09-2013, 11:29 AM

It's the unintended nerfs that hurt the most.
We always hurt the ones we love the most... :rolleyes:

Danemoth

07-09-2013, 01:01 PM

4.) For people who wish to see a melee pre, what would it look like? Would it have equal DPS as other toons, while still keeping the unequaled healing ability? If so, that would obviously be a horrible balancing decision. What else would this pre do? Give you subpar dps while having unequaled healing ability? Melee divines already have this. So I'm not sure what exactly the problem is.

I imagine it would (should?) be based on the Warpriest from PnP. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mp/mp20010413d

1) it's first Core Enhancement could grant proficiencies in all simple and martial weapons;
2) It could gain the "Inflame" ability that functions similar to an Inspire Courage;
3) Gain "Haste" and "Heal, Mass" as SLAs higher in the tree, not unlike the class outlined there.
4) Enhancements to bolster attack/damage with martial weapons
5) An SLA to enchant their own weapon with Holy damage
6) HP Enhancements

etc...

I think you get the idea. You would be trading up spell power and other enhancements from the casting trees to gain melee ability.

Honestly, I think Protector for both Cleric and FvS should be replaced with Warpriest... >.>

In before "OMG THATS OP!" and other similar posts that always follow class ideas that have no actual numbers. ;)

aristarchus1000

07-09-2013, 01:03 PM

So, could someone please explain to me how clerics are being "nerfed" exactly?

They're not getting any melee enhancements, i get that, but they're also not LOSING anything, since they never had those melee enhancements to begin with. The only two things I can see are that the lose divine might, and that pacifism core ability is terribad. But other than that, i really don't see how a melee cleric will be any different than they are on live?

This.

There are no melee enhancement prestige class for clerics now, so battle clerics are basically just add effective (or ineffective, depending on you pov) as before.

I would argue that they are significantly better with protection tree and perhaps some of the new racial enhancements.

A good divine avenger as promised would be nice. :-)

rest

07-09-2013, 01:14 PM

Another person who hasn't played with the new system, I see, and yet feels as though they are qualified to speak. Nice.

I wasn't speaking specifically to unintended nerfs of battle clerics. Just unintended nerfs in general. I don't give two figs about battle clerics.

And who are you to say what I have or haven't done? Are you watching every move I make? I didn't realize someone had to be "qualified" to post. You certainly aren't, but yet here you are being a prat.

jalont

07-09-2013, 02:01 PM

I imagine it would (should?) be based on the Warpriest from PnP. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mp/mp20010413d

1) it's first Core Enhancement could grant proficiencies in all simple and martial weapons;
2) It could gain the "Inflame" ability that functions similar to an Inspire Courage;
3) Gain "Haste" and "Heal, Mass" as SLAs higher in the tree, not unlike the class outlined there.
4) Enhancements to bolster attack/damage with martial weapons
5) An SLA to enchant their own weapon with Holy damage
6) HP Enhancements

etc...

I think you get the idea. You would be trading up spell power and other enhancements from the casting trees to gain melee ability.

Honestly, I think Protector for both Cleric and FvS should be replaced with Warpriest... >.>

In before "OMG THATS OP!" and other similar posts that always follow class ideas that have no actual numbers. ;)

This isn't at all OP, but it's also basically possible through light multiclassing. While I understand why people want the pre, I don't understand why people are so angry that it doesn't exist.

jalont

07-09-2013, 02:05 PM

I wasn't speaking specifically to unintended nerfs of battle clerics. Just unintended nerfs in general. I don't give two figs about battle clerics.

And who are you to say what I have or haven't done? Are you watching every move I make? I didn't realize someone had to be "qualified" to post. You certainly aren't, but yet here you are being a prat.

Well that's simple, for someone to make a false statement such as "melee divines are nerfed in the enhancement pass", either A, they didn't try to build one, or B, Have no idea how to actually build a toon. Seeing as you have a need to proclaim to everyone how elitist you are, I guess B really is the more likely option here.

Thrudh

07-09-2013, 10:11 PM

I'm just popping into the forums for the first time in a while. I haven't played DDO or been on the forums in about 3 months. I got really turned off when they announced the new enhancement system as Clerics are really the only class I enjoy playing, usually melee clerics and they looked like the were getting a significant nerf. Has anything changed for melee clerics? I looked around the forums a little bit and it looks like there's still no melee path on the new enhancement system for clerics. Have melee clerics gotten anything new from the devs in the past 3-4 months or are they still screwed? My main that I've played for literally 2 years is a STR based horc 17 cleric/ 2 fighter / 1 wizard I'm just wondering how badly he's going to be hit and how dramatically I'll have to change his build.

How are you getting nerfed? Are there any cleric melee enhancements NOW? Other than divine might, what exactly do melee clerics get now?

Just the fact the light splashes into melee classes opens up a ton of stuff is a huge buff...

I'm glad the devs are looking into a melee cleric path, but I'm getting real tired of people claiming the new enhancement pass is "totally ruins" their build.

Emizand

07-10-2013, 06:31 AM

It's the unintended nerfs that hurt the most.

The first nerf is the deepest

Impaqt

07-10-2013, 08:13 AM

So, could someone please explain to me how clerics are being "nerfed" exactly?

They're not getting any melee enhancements, i get that, but they're also not LOSING anything, since they never had those melee enhancements to begin with. The only two things I can see are that the lose divine might, and that pacifism core ability is terribad. But other than that, i really don't see how a melee cleric will be any different than they are on live?

I dont necessarily think they are getting "nerfed". I said I was disappointed in what I saw.

Divine Might is missing. thats bad.. I did use it on some builds...

The problem I have is that my battle clerics dont currently follow any of my 3.5 characters. I was hoping we would see a proper battle PrE and I'm still holding out for Domains someday.

I expected some forward progress in these areas with a complete enhancement system revamp... Instead, we're getting a small step backwards....

Its incredibly disappointing.

unbongwah

07-10-2013, 11:05 AM

I'm still coming to grips with the new Enhancement system, but it seems to me like the biggest nerf to BCs are the changes to Spellpower & Radiant Servant. Right now a BC can get 80 Positive Spellpower (Life Magic IV) for 10 APs and Rad Serv II for another 18 APs (+Emp Heal); that's an awful lot for healing for 35% of your APs, leaving the rest free for melee, caster DPS, or other enhs. But IIUC, under the new system your Spellpower is entirely dependent on how many APs you spend on your caster tree(s); plus the best abilities require spending at least 30 APs in Rad Serv tree (40 if you want capstone). So it seems like you have to spend more APs to be a less capable healer than BCs are on live. When you add in the loss of Divine Might, the addition of Pacifism, and the lack of a Warpriest-type PrE, melee BCs look like they got hit with the nerf bat.

That said, I can see some clever possibilities with a pally splash for Divine Grace, Divine Might, Smites, etc.

Raoull

07-10-2013, 11:46 AM

The big problem is that no melee tree will probably be able to compete with the Aura. The Aura is more ideal on a melee cleric than any other kind of cleric, and being Tier5 means that Tier5 on the actual melee cleric tree will be locked out.

Who knows, I could be wrong... but I doubt it.

Still, anything is better than that protection thing.....

Atremus

07-10-2013, 12:07 PM

Now that we are getting War Priest, I would say things looks good. The really hard part will be spending just enough in the RS tree to get Aura and then finding the right combo in War Priest to be effective.

carpemontis

07-10-2013, 01:54 PM

There's no intended nerf of melee clerics. We realize there are some issues to address to ensure that comes to pass.

We're working on the plan. More to come.

Removal of divine Might was a big blow to melee clerics bar none....

Well geared Cleric running divine might IV back in U9 was running about 80% dps off a Frenzied Bezerker III Barbarian.....

This is Pre ED days so ont be shocked the gap is wider nowadays.

I am affraid those days are long gone.

Taken from

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/317254-Post-U9-Falchion-vs-Great-Axe/page3

Now I'm getting silly.. But I really like Clerics. Time to see Cleric DPS with these weapons.

-Hits on a 2-20
-Confirms at crits

Human 20 lvl Cleric: Base 30 Str (18+1adapt+5 level up+6 item)

+ rage spell (2)
+ tome (4)
+exceptional (3)
+Litany (1)
+ double madstone (4)
+ yugo pot (2)

= 46 Str. (-10 = 36/2 = 18*1.5=27 )

+damage boost IV (5)
+ Power attack + (10)
+Divine Favor +3
+Prayer (1)
+Divine Might IV (8)

=54 damage bonus.

+5 weapon enhancement

=59 damage bonus.

+ Bloodstone (seeker 6)

GS GA Acid Burst ((10.5+59)*90) +(((10.5+59+6)*5)*3) + (26.06*95) + (11*95*.075)
6255+1132.5+2475.7+78.375=9941.575 Damage over 100 hits at 50% Fort

GS FAL Acid Burst ((7+59)*80)+(((7+59+6)*15)*2) + (24.75*95) + (5.5*95*.175)
5280+2160+2351.25+91.4375= 9882.6875 Damage

**************CONCLUSION*****************

So, for a full melee specced cleric, A GA does 100.6% of the damage of a Falchion on 50% enemies. Falchion is better on everything below 50% basically.

***************BONUS*****************

Did you notice,

Barb = 12112 damage over 100 swings with an Acid Burst GS GA @ 50% Fort
Cleric = 9941.75 damage over the same.
Kensai III = 11064 damage over the same (MINUS FTR Haste boost which would move him to 14936; also doesn't include 10% double hit capstone)

Cleric = 82% of Barb dps. That's better than some of the estimates I've seen. Just sayin.

ENH Pass is looking to be a sda day for cmelee clerics indeed Vargouille....

If the possible numbers dont even remotely look close to Pre-ED comparisons then its an epic fail implementation.

Enhancement pass is supposed to blow our minds with build possibiliteis... So far its the 10/5/5 and bastard splits that are getting all the goodies.

Hope this helps light up what needs wotk.

Laters

carpemontis

07-10-2013, 01:55 PM

eachna_gislin

07-26-2013, 01:34 AM

So, could someone please explain to me how clerics are being "nerfed" exactly?

They're not getting any melee enhancements, i get that, but they're also not LOSING anything, since they never had those melee enhancements to begin with. The only two things I can see are that the lose divine might, and that pacifism core ability is terribad. But other than that, i really don't see how a melee cleric will be any different than they are on live?

Clerics on live get access to Divine Might, which is most definately a melee enhancement.

As of the last cleric update on Lamm...this is missing.

However, devs have explicitly stated that clerics will be getting a warpriest tree.

I have no idea if that will really happen, but I'm cautiously optimistic.

ThePrincipal

09-20-2013, 06:20 PM

I'm revisiting an my older dwarf melee cleric for EDs and lvl 28 and new enchancements.

I like dwarf because of Hp/Con, spell saves, and axe damage. Pure 20 cleric all the way. Str/Cha build and was a buffer/heals cleric with melee as primary dps from greataxes. Tosss some light spells.

I believe the free +20 LR is working so I can respec feats without loosing ED xp (right?). Here's what I am leaning towards:

H Feats - greataxe, toughness, empower healing, quicken, PA, Improved Crit, Cleave
Epic Feats - great cleave, overwhelming crit, and Haste
ED Feats - Holy Strike, Forced Escape

mobrien316

09-20-2013, 06:56 PM

My battle cleric is currently on his ninth life. Three past cleric lives, one fighter, one paladin, one monk, one rogue, one sorcerer. The last three were done as battle clerics with two LR's after hitting twenty. On his current life he is at level 18 (all cleric levels.)

Other than the loss of Divine Might, I haven't noticed a nerf. His HP are a bit higher, and I haven't noticed a drop off in DPS. I think the melee DPS is a bit higher as well.

Pure clerics do not have to be healbots.

Holyshank

09-23-2013, 10:12 PM

sirgog

09-24-2013, 12:55 AM

The only good battle clerics I have seen have been on youtube.

As a pure cleric it ****es me off having battle clerics in a party that refuse to heal themselves and then insult the pure cleric for not keeping them alive.

If you go a battle cleric thats cool with me, just PLEASE use your mana to heal yourself and not insult us pure clerics for doing something you CAN do yourself.

Oh, you had one bad experience with a melee divine? I had one bad experience recently with a Shiradi sorc that was deadweight too. Shiradi sorcs must be an awful build!

Now that responding to the troll is done, back on topic. I'm thinking Clr17/Pal2/Ftr1 in heavy armor, with Str the highest stat, Cha second and Con third is the way to go at the moment. (Enough Int for skills which is actually a lot, Dex and Wis pretty low but maybe not totally dumped as they do affect Reflex saves and SP pool respectively).

Full THF chain, full cleave chain, Overwhelming Critical, Legendary Dreadnought and/or Fury of the Wild.

Stay primarily in Radiant Servant and just cherrypick from early Kensai, fairly deep into Warpriest, and the better low tier Paladin stuff.

mobrien316

09-24-2013, 04:48 AM

The only good battle clerics I have seen have been on youtube.

As a pure cleric it ****es me off having battle clerics in a party that refuse to heal themselves and then insult the pure cleric for not keeping them alive.

If you go a battle cleric thats cool with me, just PLEASE use your mana to heal yourself and not insult us pure clerics for doing something you CAN do yourself.

So you saw a battle cleric who not only refused to heal anyone else, but who also refused to heal himself? So he was essentially playing a fighter without all the bonus feats and with a lower BAB and fewer weapon proficiencies AND with no self-healing?

Any idea why this person you say you saw went cleric if he refused to ever cast a heal spell or turn on his aura or use a burst?

Regardless, I would say that person is hardly representative of battle clerics.

guardianx2009

09-24-2013, 09:02 AM

So you saw a battle cleric who not only refused to heal anyone else, but who also refused to heal himself? So he was essentially playing a fighter without all the bonus feats and with a lower BAB and fewer weapon proficiencies AND with no self-healing?

Any idea why this person you say you saw went cleric if he refused to ever cast a heal spell or turn on his aura or use a burst?

Regardless, I would say that person is hardly representative of battle clerics.

The battle cleric stigma comes from bad, or simply new players trying to play cleric and taking the shortcut by splashing. So instead of learning to play the core cleric aspects (redbar, mob, situation management), they focus on melee. The result is when things go south... they go south very quickly.

Sure there are good battle clerics - but there's more than a handful of bad ones. My guess is with Warpriest tree, we might see more to come..

wtorchia

09-24-2013, 03:49 PM

I'm thinking Clr17/Pal2/Ftr1 in heavy armor, with Str the highest stat, Cha second and Con third is the way to go at the moment. (Enough Int for skills which is actually a lot, Dex and Wis pretty low but maybe not totally dumped as they do affect Reflex saves and SP pool respectively).

Full THF chain, full cleave chain, Overwhelming Critical, Legendary Dreadnought and/or Fury of the Wild.

Stay primarily in Radiant Servant and just cherrypick from early Kensai, fairly deep into Warpriest, and the better low tier Paladin stuff.

I just TRD out of a BC that was set up like this. I only TRD because I wanted to try full caster again after 1 year as a BC. I went Half Orc. Full st, decent wis, decent char with lvl ups into st. I had top end gear on him. Red / black dragon armor, Cleaver and so on. In the Legendary dreadnought ED he hit like a truck and could take beating. I basically played him like a Paldin that could heal a raid.

mobrien316

09-24-2013, 05:00 PM

The battle cleric stigma comes from bad, or simply new players trying to play cleric and taking the shortcut by splashing. So instead of learning to play the core cleric aspects (redbar, mob, situation management), they focus on melee. The result is when things go south... they go south very quickly.

Sure there are good battle clerics - but there's more than a handful of bad ones. My guess is with Warpriest tree, we might see more to come..

I agree there are bad players who call their character "battle clerics", but I have never met a single one who refused to self-heal.

Trasak

09-24-2013, 05:30 PM

A bit more of a gimick character I guess but what about a 17 WP 3 Tempest Elf who dumps str(only to 13 for PA with tomes) and focuses on two weapon fighting and scimitars. You would have dex to attack and damage, (unsure of how offhand dex damage works i.e. if its half or not) around +12(+4 elf, +5 WP, +3 Tempest) to attack and damage with scimitars and your light damage add would be up more due to two weapons. A similar pitch could be made for 17WP 3 ninja Drow. On a second note I wonder if the enhancement bonuses from AA and WP stack?

firemedium_jt

09-24-2013, 09:30 PM

There are plenty of bad players. It is just that you only notice the bad Clerics. We are the goaltenders like in hockey. Everyone screams and yells when a goal is scored by the other players on the team. They pat themselves on the back. But if the goal tender sucks or is having a bad day the game is still lost.

You see all the hockey players go up to the goaltender after the game win or lose to show support and thanks.

Unfortunately that does not happen to Clerics in DDO.

You are ungrateful kids most of the time.

It is why there are less Clerics than there use to be. I have seen many Clerics come and go over the years. Even the ones that liked to mostly just be in a heal role.

wtorchia

09-25-2013, 11:32 AM

Ungood

09-25-2013, 12:45 PM

I imagine it would (should?) be based on the Warpriest from PnP. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mp/mp20010413d

1) it's first Core Enhancement could grant proficiencies in all simple and martial weapons;
2) It could gain the "Inflame" ability that functions similar to an Inspire Courage;
3) Gain "Haste" and "Heal, Mass" as SLAs higher in the tree, not unlike the class outlined there.
4) Enhancements to bolster attack/damage with martial weapons
5) An SLA to enchant their own weapon with Holy damage
6) HP Enhancements

etc...

I think you get the idea. You would be trading up spell power and other enhancements from the casting trees to gain melee ability.

Honestly, I think Protector for both Cleric and FvS should be replaced with Warpriest... >.>

In before "OMG THATS OP!" and other similar posts that always follow class ideas that have no actual numbers. ;)

it's not just that this is OP'ed, but it also removes the need for paladin class to exist. I see the same people time and time again boasting that Barbs should not get more healing options because "think of the paladins" but here, you and others have no qualms about asking for a PRE that all but eliminates any point for the paladin class to exist.

Irony at it's finest.

Panzermeyer

09-25-2013, 03:56 PM

Panzermeyer

09-25-2013, 04:07 PM

Now that responding to the troll is done, back on topic. I'm thinking Clr17/Pal2/Ftr1 in heavy armor, with Str the highest stat, Cha second and Con third is the way to go at the moment. (Enough Int for skills which is actually a lot, Dex and Wis pretty low but maybe not totally dumped as they do affect Reflex saves and SP pool respectively).

Full THF chain, full cleave chain, Overwhelming Critical, Legendary Dreadnought and/or Fury of the Wild.

Stay primarily in Radiant Servant and just cherrypick from early Kensai, fairly deep into Warpriest, and the better low tier Paladin stuff.

I would be interested in seeing more of a build from you sirgog, I have seen some of your others and have been impressed. I am nearing the last life of the TR train, and was planning on ending up as a cleric anyway. Something like this seems interesting.

With the feats outlined is 7, leaves one left over from the extra fighter, which I assume would go to Maximze for bursts and aura.

Seems that with the thiness maybe going human for the extra feat would be best. Though it would seem a dwarf or Half-Orc would be the best to get the most out of this smashing.

Heroic Feats:
Two Hander Lines:
THF, ITHF, GTHF

Cleave Line:
PA, Cleave, G Cleave

Criticial:
Improved Critical

Epic:
Overwhleming Critical

Panzermeyer

09-25-2013, 04:11 PM

I just TRD out of a BC that was set up like this. I only TRD because I wanted to try full caster again after 1 year as a BC. I went Half Orc. Full st, decent wis, decent char with lvl ups into st. I had top end gear on him. Red / black dragon armor, Cleaver and so on. In the Legendary dreadnought ED he hit like a truck and could take beating. I basically played him like a Paldin that could heal a raid.

What feats did you have on him wtorchia?

wtorchia

09-25-2013, 06:14 PM

What feats did you have on him wtorchia?

Metas:
Maximise
Empower heal

Melee:
THF
ITHF
GTHF
PA
Cleave
Greater Cleave
IC : Slashing
Overwhelming crit

DPS gear:
Head: EH black dragon helm (8 con)
Goggles: GS Con op SP item
Bracers: 20% HA, +4 saves (can't remember name)
Ring 1: Ring of the stalker( 200 SP, some stat gem)
Ring 2: 106 pos ring
belt: GS smoke HP item
Neck : EE Jorga (stat gems)
Gloves: Purple dragon
trinket: Melee focus
Boots: Epic boots of corrosion
Armor : Black (epic) or red dragon (Corm) full plate
Wep: Cleaver, Hewer of Suffering

In legendary dreadnoghnt full masters blitz stacks I was seeing crits with Cleaver, Hewer of Suffering (tier 3) in the 4k + range. Mind you this was soloing so I could get the full stacks going. When I was in a group I just not count on the masters blitz at all. I would see 1k+ crits often. I was sitting at 600+ HP and 1800 + SP. I still healed EH raids just fine.

With the the half orc PA and THF damage lines the build just hits HARD for a BC. I tried out a 8 fighter, 2 monk 10 cleric with my + 20 LR before I TRd. Made the build WAY worse. I hit harder and critted more, but I was more squishy without my aura and PRR from full plate armor.

sirgog

09-25-2013, 06:27 PM

Metas:
Maximise
Empower heal

Melee:
THF
ITHF
GTHF
PA
Cleave
Greater Cleave
IC : Slashing
Overwhelming crit

DPS gear:
Head: EH black dragon helm (8 con)
Goggles: GS Con op SP item
Bracers: 20% HA, +4 saves (can't remember name)
Ring 1: Ring of the stalker( 200 SP, some stat gem)
Ring 2: 106 pos ring
belt: GS smoke HP item
Neck : EE Jorga (stat gems)
Gloves: Purple dragon
trinket: Melee focus
Boots: Epic boots of corrosion
Armor : Black (epic) or red dragon (Corm) full plate
Wep: Cleaver, Hewer of Suffering

In legendary dreadnoghnt full masters blitz stacks I was seeing crits with Cleaver, Hewer of Suffering (tier 3) in the 4k + range. Mind you this was soloing so I could get the full stacks going. When I was in a group I just not count on the masters blitz at all. I would see 1k+ crits often. I was sitting at 600+ HP and 1800 + SP. I still healed EH raids just fine.

With the the half orc PA and THF damage lines the build just hits HARD for a BC. I tried out a 8 fighter, 2 monk 10 cleric with my + 20 LR before I TRd. Made the build WAY worse. I hit harder and critted more, but I was more squishy without my aura and PRR from full plate armor.

Yeah I don't think deep splashes get returns. You want to be able to go full healbot when that is what the situation calls for, which you can do well with 17 Clr levels and acceptably for a short time with 12. For this reason I intend to stay deep in Radiant Servant (keeping the Aura) even though that means no tier 5 melee enhancements. (Sorry, permanent Divine Power with the not insignificant DPS boost of never having to spend 700ms recasting that spell and unable to swing a weapon every 2 minutes).

Panzermeyer

09-25-2013, 07:11 PM

Goggles: GS Con op SP item
Bracers: 20% HA, +4 saves (can't remember name)
Ring 1: Ring of the stalker( 200 SP, some stat gem)
Ring 2: 106 pos ring

I thought an SP Power Augment doesn't stack with the bonuses of a GS item?

sirgog

09-25-2013, 07:42 PM

What feats did you have on him wtorchia?

There really isn't much choice in the matter if you have Human - Clr17/Pal2/Ftr1 as your framework.

Feats - Heroic (7 baseline, 1 human, 1 Ftr):
THF chain (3)
Cleave chain (3) - PA, Cleave, GC
Imp Crit
Empower Heal (Maximize does not work on aura so this is better)
Quicken

21 - Devastating Critical

24 - A bit flexible, probably Maximize

26-28: Will leave these to people more familiar with the destiny feats, I've not been playing my divine enough to cap yet.

wtorchia

09-25-2013, 11:54 PM

There really isn't much choice in the matter if you have Human - Clr17/Pal2/Ftr1 as your framework.

Feats - Heroic (7 baseline, 1 human, 1 Ftr):
THF chain (3)
Cleave chain (3) - PA, Cleave, GC
Imp Crit
Empower Heal (Maximize does not work on aura so this is better)
Quicken

21 - Devastating Critical

24 - A bit flexible, probably Maximize

26-28: Will leave these to people more familiar with the destiny feats, I've not been playing my divine enough to cap yet.

I ran with out quicken just fine. I was not really casting spells often though.

wtorchia

09-25-2013, 11:55 PM

I thought an SP Power Augment doesn't stack with the bonuses of a GS item?

They do. Same with the GS HP and other HP stuff

sirgog

09-26-2013, 01:27 AM

I ran with out quicken just fine. I was not really casting spells often though.

I consider Quicken essential.

You can't even self-heal from SP without it a lot of the time, let alone heal the party.

For that matter, it cuts 350ms off the cast time of Divine Power and Divine Favor (and any other spells you cast in combat like perhaps Divine Punishment), which is roughly a 0.6% DPS increase in prolonged fights if you cast the two buffs once per two minutes.

But mostly, the reason you play a melee divine rather than a focused melee is because, when things go wrong, you can seemlessly transition into a fountain of healing, turning a wipe into a recovery. Without Quicken, you have to drop any aggro you have and run away from the front lines before you can do that.

Finally Quicken is a prerequisite to using Mass Heal, which while not as important as it was at the 20 cap, is still a key tool in your arsenal and something you will cast fairly often.

PNellesen

09-26-2013, 07:21 AM

24 - A bit flexible, probably Maximize

A guildie of mine (thanks, Atremus!) suggested "Enlarge" if you intend to do any kind of "healbotting" at all - I tried it on my Horc and I have to say it definitely makes it easier to heal things like FoT, where people get spread out all over a big area. Enlarge also applies to Renewal (and I THINK to Burst as well), which is pretty nice.

wtorchia

09-26-2013, 10:50 AM

I consider Quicken essential.

You can't even self-heal from SP without it a lot of the time, let alone heal the party.

For that matter, it cuts 350ms off the cast time of Divine Power and Divine Favor (and any other spells you cast in combat like perhaps Divine Punishment), which is roughly a 0.6% DPS increase in prolonged fights if you cast the two buffs once per two minutes.

But mostly, the reason you play a melee divine rather than a focused melee is because, when things go wrong, you can seemlessly transition into a fountain of healing, turning a wipe into a recovery. Without Quicken, you have to drop any aggro you have and run away from the front lines before you can do that.

Finally Quicken is a prerequisite to using Mass Heal, which while not as important as it was at the 20 cap, is still a key tool in your arsenal and something you will cast fairly often.

I agree that when the cap was 20 quicken was needed. I just did not find my self casting Mass Heal very often. Between my aura, burst and mass cure crit it was just not needed. It got to the point that I was looking at a 16 cleric build. I just never cast the lvl 9 spells.

The other big thing is play style. In a PUG situation I would switch to Exalted Angel or Unyielding Sentinel for more SP or HP. I would also swap my gear some to the Amaunator's Blessing set to stretch SP and play a more heal bot roll. At least for the first few fights to get a guage the party. I could still use cleaver just fine, just not to its full potential.

Basically I had multiple modes between EDs, twists, and gear.

1) Legendary Dreadnought with Piercing Clarity, Endless turning, and Hail of Blows. With max DPS gear
Max personal DPS. Low SP pool (1600 or so) but lots of turns (16 I think). Used mostly for soloing.

2) Legendary Dreadnought with Piercing Clarity, Endless turning, and Endless faith. With max DPS gear
Slightly lower DPS. Better SP pool (1800 or so) same amount of turns. Used for groups where I was the 2nd healer.

3) Exalted Angel with Endless turning, Improved Power Attack and Healing hands. With mixed DPS gear
Lower DPS, but still able to solo heal EH and some EE content

4) Exalted Angel with Endless turning, Fey Form: and Healing hands. With full healing gear
Low DPS full heal bot mode with deepest SP pool possible. Main healing a raid. Relied on scroll healing some what.

5) Unyielding Sentinel with Healing power, Endless faith, and Purity of essence. With full healing gear.
Low DPS, slightly lower SP, but a HUGE jump in HP. I hardly used this set up, but it is an interesting one that I played around with. It maximizes the free healing that the 17/2/1 split gives you. By taking light the dark and the LOH regen stuff you get 2 independent sources of free healing. One based on tuns and one based on LOH. This set up felt like it would be better for a sword and board type BC.

The key to all of this is figuring out my roll in a group. I was always looking to fill in the spots that where lacking. That is the main strength of the Cleric class. You can be ANY roll.

Panzermeyer

09-26-2013, 11:14 AM

I agree that when the cap was 20 quicken was needed. I just did not find my self casting Mass Heal very often. Between my aura, burst and mass cure crit it was just not needed. It got to the point that I was looking at a 16 cleric build. I just never cast the lvl 9 spells.

So out of curiosity how are you liking the caster route?

I am just looking for opinions and information.

I am definitely getting down with the TR grind and just looking for a few more cleric lives to improve my turning ability for some of the Drow quests and possibility some effectiveness in Wheloon.

I was thinking about this battle build as I am having some fun with my last build which is using a greataxe with cleave and great cleave, but lacks the THF feats.

So your ideas where interesting to me, but the other build I was thinking of was this TWF pure cleric build.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418510-Silverdance-Advanced-TWF-Cleric-Build

I just realized this last night that I am not sure I want to grind out THF and TWF gear. So I might want to just decide on one path. The THF definitely seems to be the more fighter route, with less casting.

My Toon has 3 wizzy and 3 sorc past lives, and it seems a bit of a waste to let those lives go if I am not going to have some casting abilities in addition to my combat abilities. So the TWF build is interesting to me, though I like would either go Half-Elf with Fighter dilly or just a 19 C/1F for the martial feats. I honestly don't think I would have the patience for scroll casting Master's touch.

The phally splash to shore up saves does sound interesting though. I know other than will saves, the saves of clerics are not that spectacular. Going CHA focused to get more turns, better undead turning, with a 2 phally splash would certainly help saves a great deal.

So I remain on the fence. =)

I will likely still try both builds just to see which I like better. Having only one cleric past live, I could just suck it up and do one life THF, then one life TWF see which I like better, grind for gear and do a final TR into the build that I like best.

wtorchia

09-26-2013, 12:17 PM

So out of curiosity how are you liking the caster route?

I am just looking for opinions and information.

I am definitely getting down with the TR grind and just looking for a few more cleric lives to improve my turning ability for some of the Drow quests and possibility some effectiveness in Wheloon.

I was thinking about this battle build as I am having some fun with my last build which is using a greataxe with cleave and great cleave, but lacks the THF feats.

So your ideas where interesting to me, but the other build I was thinking of was this TWF pure cleric build.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418510-Silverdance-Advanced-TWF-Cleric-Build

I just realized this last night that I am not sure I want to grind out THF and TWF gear. So I might want to just decide on one path. The THF definitely seems to be the more fighter route, with less casting.

My Toon has 3 wizzy and 3 sorc past lives, and it seems a bit of a waste to let those lives go if I am not going to have some casting abilities in addition to my combat abilities. So the TWF build is interesting to me, though I like would either go Half-Elf with Fighter dilly or just a 19 C/1F for the martial feats. I honestly don't think I would have the patience for scroll casting Master's touch.

The phally splash to shore up saves does sound interesting though. I know other than will saves, the saves of clerics are not that spectacular. Going CHA focused to get more turns, better undead turning, with a 2 phally splash would certainly help saves a great deal.

So I remain on the fence. =)

I will likely still try both builds just to see which I like better. Having only one cleric past live, I could just suck it up and do one life THF, then one life TWF see which I like better, grind for gear and do a final TR into the build that I like best.

Few things to be said before I give my opinion.

1) This is my main. I do not have any alts that I play
2) I solo a LOT. I have a guild that is just me.
3) This is my 3rd life for this char. They have all been cleric so far.

With that said, my fist life was a pure heal bot cleric. I got bored back when the cap was 20 and TRd into the BC build we are talking about. I played him that way for about a year. I loved the play style. I ground out all of the high end melee gear. As I started to close in on what my max melee DPS could be I just kept feeling like I was cutting the class short. I had 17 level of cleric and I was only casting buffs and heals. That is when I started playing around with the min amount of cleric that I could take in a BC build. After messing around with it all I found that I just had basically made a Paladin that could raid heal with lower DPS. Mind you I LIKED it, but again I felt I was cutting the cleric side short.

I just hit 18 on my 3rd life. The plan this life is to hit 28 as a pure caster. This is my 2nd time through heroic on a caster cleric. I have not done Epic as a caster yet, so it is hard to say how it will go. I am going with a necro cleric. So far I am liking it, I just miss my melee stuff. I may LR and pick up a weapon feet other then long sword. I have 2 x Celestia, Brightest Star of Day, and 1 of most of the other 1 hand weps sitting in my stash. It may be worth the 3-4 feats at later levels. Right now at 18 as a human I have:

Maximise
Quicken
Empower
Empower Heal
Highten
Mental toughness
Necro focus
Greater necro focus

I could easily drop empower and Greater necro to pickup TWF and ITFW (maybe IC). Then just use scrolls for prof for now. I can then pickup the rest at latter levels.