Toughness a waste of a feat now

[Takllin]

With the removal of the toughness enhancement line this feat seems to be a complete waste unless you plan on taking epic toughness as well...

[Cetus]

With the removal of the toughness enhancement line this feat seems to be a complete waste unless you plan on taking epic toughness as well...

Pretty much

I'm not taking it.

[HAL]

Yep, I won't waste a feat on it.

[Chette]

But on the other hand, you now have a free feat, which is great for the feat starved classes like bards.

[Nightmanis]

This is the exact reason they changed it.

Logic: Toughness is considered nearly 100% required for all classes. Why not make the bonus people seem to gain from Toughness just auto granted, thus freeing up a slot for nearly all classes?

BRILLIANT!!!!

OMG I LOST 80hp FROM THIS CHANGE!!!

Seriously, why were you spending 1/4th of your ap on hp?

[Noctus]

To be honest in the current system Thoughness isnt really a feat-choice, but more like a feat-tax, as literally every build presented in the forums takes it.

There is not really a choice, its simply that good/needed.


So they freed up a featslot i can now decide to do with. Althoug i dont like loosing around 10-30 HP on most of my toons, one more "real" featslot to paly with and invest in other gainful boni is worth that.

[AylinIsAwesome]

With the removal of the toughness enhancement line this feat seems to be a complete waste unless you plan on taking epic toughness as well...

And this makes me very happy.

Now I'll actually be able to spend all of my feats on things I want.

[Dandonk]

I like that Toughness will not be a must-have feat anymore. But I do think the change is a little over the top - from being a must-have to a gimp feat that nearly noone will take.

[Enoach]

If you consider that before the toughness enhancements existed (and technically for a time even after the enhancements came out and we had Minos Legends the Toughness Feat Granter) toughness was not considered a "required" feat but one fighters invested in for an extra 13 HP.

The direction chosen to balance out the system was to add Toughness Enhancements for classes. This made the small extra amount of HP granted by the Feat seem worth it to gain the extra 20 to 80 HP (depending on class/race). In essence I see this change as a correction of the problem that developed because of this - and in my opinion a good correction.

Even if we pull Toughness Feet out to Level 28, so 30 HP.

Now each person gets to decide 30HP or some other feat? Before this change this argument could be 107 HP vs Some other defensive/offensive feat. Add another 50 HP and now you are discussing their value vs 2 other feats

Now these 30 to 80 HP will still be worth while to some builds but will no longer be mandatory.

Builds that were heavily invested in the HP Enhancement lines - Such as your Dwarven/WF/Human Fighter/Paladin builds for example will probably not have as many HP. But from what I'm seeing that will be more in the range of 60ish HP before stances that increase HP.

[LilyOphelia]

Toughness is still compelling (more hp is always amazing) versus being mandatory. Great place for it to be!

[Takllin]

This is the exact reason they changed it.

Logic: Toughness is considered nearly 100% required for all classes. Why not make the bonus people seem to gain from Toughness just auto granted, thus freeing up a slot for nearly all classes?

BRILLIANT!!!!

OMG I LOST 80hp FROM THIS CHANGE!!!

Seriously, why were you spending 1/4th of your ap on hp?
Well I've always thought it was stupid to spend that many AP on 10 HP and have never spent more than 3 AP per life on the enhancements. I just found it odd that there was no real mention of it.

And I'm all for the change. Ill still take the barb past life when I'm TRing just for those extra 20 HP at level 3, but outside of that ill never take it.

[Silverleafeon]

This is the exact reason they changed it.

Logic: Toughness is considered nearly 100% required for all classes. Why not make the bonus people seem to gain from Toughness just auto granted, thus freeing up a slot for nearly all classes?

BRILLIANT!!!!

OMG I LOST 80hp FROM THIS CHANGE!!!

Seriously, why were you spending 1/4th of your ap on hp?

Aye, and we will gain 3 more epic levels at the same time....how much is 3 more levels in hp?

[Carpone]

30 HP per Toughness feat at level 28 isn't terrible. When combined with Epic Toughness it's 80 HP total, which is about 10% of HP for many builds. Many people are happy to allocate two feat slots for 10% HP. It's all how you look at it.

[Hutoth]

...

[Hutoth]

I like that Toughness will not be a must-have feat anymore. But I do think the change is a little over the top - from being a must-have to a gimp feat that nearly noone will take.

Agreeing with this sentiment.

Also, and more generally: removing ways in which you can fail, removing the reason to learn what works and doesn't work... are these good steps? If I literally cannot fail to make a pretty optimal toon, then all that's been accomplished is removing the "toon-making" game from DDO. I don't know about you reading this post, but for me writing it - I freaking love the toon-making game. Being unable to lose at it = being unable to win at it too.

[Ivan_Milic]

Ill be taking stunning blow on my barb.

[Teh_Troll]

Agreeing with this sentiment.

Also, and more generally: removing ways in which you can fail, removing the reason to learn what works and doesn't work... are these good steps? If I literally cannot fail to make a pretty optimal toon, then all that's been accomplished is removing the "toon-making" game from DDO. I don't know about you reading this post, but for me writing it - I freaking love the toon-making game. Being unable to lose at it = being unable to win at it too.

We are a long way from making gimp builds impossible. People can still roll barbs and paladins :)

[Vellrad]

To be honest in the current system Thoughness isnt really a feat-choice, but more like a feat-tax, as literally every build presented in the forums takes it.

There is not really a choice, its simply that good/needed.


So they freed up a featslot i can now decide to do with. Althoug i dont like loosing around 10-30 HP on most of my toons, one more "real" featslot to paly with and invest in other gainful boni is worth that.


And this makes me very happy.

Now I'll actually be able to spend all of my feats on things I want.

Power attack is also mandatory for anyone willing to use melee weapon for more than casting bonuses.
Should it also be free for everyone?

[Takllin]

Power attack is also mandatory for anyone willing to use melee weapon for more than casting bonuses.
Should it also be free for everyone?
Add cleave and great cleave too. With the changes made to them and lay waste/momentum swing.

[redspecter23]

Add cleave and great cleave too. With the changes made to them and lay waste/momentum swing.

I think that power attack, cleave and great cleave are right where they should be as far as power level is concerned. The only reason they are mostly mandatory right now is that we don't have any comparable options for two reasons. Two handed fighting is very popular compared to two weapon fighting (partly because of how useful cleave and great cleave are) and the synergy with the Dreadnaught destiny, which is considered by many to be one of only 2 useful melee destinies. The other, Fury of the Wild, also has better synergy with two handed fighting than two weapon fighting due to how fury interacts differently with the two styles.

A solution is to give people more reasons to play two weapon fighting and give feats that rival the usefulness of cleave and great cleave that work well with that fighting style. Even then, you would need either add new destiny devoted to two weapon fighting (Primal Avatar just doesn't cut it) or a nerf to Dreadnaught to make people even consider another option. Combine all this with the fact that the far and away best epic melee feat requires both cleave and great cleave and you have a situation where players are pushed right into such a narrow selection of feat "choices" that we wonder if it really is a choice at all.

Freeing up toughness as a feat choice is hopefully just a first step in the process. The power attack, cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical chain is just as easy a "no braner" for so many builds, that I'd love to see some actual choices added to encourage some diversity. When you have pure ranged toons still taking cleave and great cleave (and never using them) in order to get to overwhelming critical, you know there are some gaps that need to be filled in the feat list.

[Qhualor]

Power attack is also mandatory for anyone willing to use melee weapon for more than casting bonuses.
Should it also be free for everyone?

maybe not so much for barbs if they cant rage and use PA at the same time. that alone kills the class.

[FestusHood]

maybe not so much for barbs if they cant rage and use PA at the same time. that alone kills the class.

That pretty clearly has to be a bug.

[Teh_Troll]

maybe not so much for barbs if they cant rage and use PA at the same time. that alone kills the class.

Wait . . . WHAT?

I missed this one . . . they can't rage with PA on?

[redspecter23]

Wait . . . WHAT?

I missed this one . . . they can't rage with PA on?

It's one of those things that sounds so crazy you assume it's a bug, but with Turbine, you never know.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Power attack is also mandatory for anyone willing to use melee weapon for more than casting bonuses.
Should it also be free for everyone?

So I guess all of those Rogues with Precision instead of Power Attack are doing it wrong then?

[Vellrad]

So I guess all of those Rogues with Precision instead of Power Attack are doing it wrong then?

By all those you mean 2 or 3 individuals?
Because thsoe without power attack (who are actually doing any meaningful DPS) are of urban legend rarity.

[Charononus]

By all those you mean 2 or 3 individuals?
Because thsoe without power attack (who are actually doing any meaningful DPS) are of urban legend rarity.

Most I know take both because at epic level yeah you can stack a bunch of fort bypass for raid bosses. Most mobs don't have fort though so it's a net decrease in most situations.

[Nightmanis]

Most I know take both because at epic level yeah you can stack a bunch of fort bypass for raid bosses. Most mobs don't have fort though so it's a net decrease in most situations.

I have both. No matter your str, it's almost required to have both on a heavy rogue build at epic levels. I say almost because I know some people will think of better feats. My self, however, took both and both cleave feats on my rogue so that I could charge blitz, and have some powerful AOE damage to add to my massive single target dps.

Seriously, twf plus cleave feats is the way to go. High AOE damage plus high single target damage is the best combination for maximum bum-pillaging.

[azrael4h]

I like that Toughness will not be a must-have feat anymore. But I do think the change is a little over the top - from being a must-have to a gimp feat that nearly noone will take.

That seems to be the Turbine way. Remember back in U14 (IIRC) when they were going to cripple Maximize and Empower? They were going to be so weak that no one would take them outside of PrE reqs. Turbine backed off of that one, don't know if they will with this. But it's the same thing, with no toughness enhancements linked to the toughness feat, pretty much only my Fighter might take one or two, and that's because Fighters have so many feats it's a matter of what else would I do with them? Dragonmarks?

[redspecter23]

That seems to be the Turbine way. Remember back in U14 (IIRC) when they were going to cripple Maximize and Empower? They were going to be so weak that no one would take them outside of PrE reqs. Turbine backed off of that one, don't know if they will with this. But it's the same thing, with no toughness enhancements linked to the toughness feat, pretty much only my Fighter might take one or two, and that's because Fighters have so many feats it's a matter of what else would I do with them? Dragonmarks?

A feat that a character "might" take is better than 80% of the current feat list. There's a lot of low hanging fruit there and even with the changes, toughness is still a feat to be considered rather than mandatory.

[Dandonk]

That seems to be the Turbine way. Remember back in U14 (IIRC) when they were going to cripple Maximize and Empower? They were going to be so weak that no one would take them outside of PrE reqs. Turbine backed off of that one, don't know if they will with this. But it's the same thing, with no toughness enhancements linked to the toughness feat, pretty much only my Fighter might take one or two, and that's because Fighters have so many feats it's a matter of what else would I do with them? Dragonmarks?

True, they do have this history.

Will they change it? Who knows, but I wouldn't place any large amount on money on us getting to hit the ball this time.


A feat that a character "might" take is better than 80% of the current feat list. There's a lot of low hanging fruit there and even with the changes, toughness is still a feat to be considered rather than mandatory.

So, it's not too bad because the skill focus feats are still worse? I may be silly, but I think either making feats like that better or removing them from the game would be a better choice for the game than nerfing feats until they're just as useless as those.

[Qhualor]

it will be interesting to see how players build their characters now who would boot/decline others because of low hp. maybe this is a start to using some tactics instead of letting hp absorb the damage while zerging the game.

[HatsuharuZ]

With the removal of the toughness enhancement line this feat seems to be a complete waste unless you plan on taking epic toughness as well...

Great! Now I can fit in quicken AND empower heal on my paladin! :D

[HastyPudding]

it will be interesting to see how players build their characters now who would boot/decline others because of low hp. maybe this is a start to using some tactics instead of letting hp absorb the damage while zerging the game.

This changes nothing, really. People will still complain about low HP, just now the bar has been lowered to fit the deficit. 95% Of all characters will have lower HP than they did before. 256 HP at level 20 will still be considered a 'con-dumper'.

My only concern is how this is going to impact end-game epic elite quests where 80 HP can make an actual difference between being killed in 2 hits or 3. FVS, rogues, and WF sorcerers are going to feel this more than most, I think. Rogues are definitely going to need more skill in avoiding aggro.

[Nightmanis]

This changes nothing, really. People will still complain about low HP, just now the bar has been lowered to fit the deficit. 95% Of all characters will have lower HP than they did before. 256 HP at level 20 will still be considered a 'con-dumper'.

My only concern is how this is going to impact end-game epic elite quests where 80 HP can make an actual difference between being killed in 2 hits or 3. FVS, rogues, and WF sorcerers are going to feel this more than most, I think. Rogues are definitely going to need more skill in avoiding aggro.

Rogues don't get class based bonuses, so only wf and dwarf will really feel this unless you have a human/helf rogue that took greater con for 6 points to get that 3rd toughness enhancement for another 3. Even then, Dwarves and Toasters get hp from their racial tree, so they'll come out roughly ok.

WF Sorcs, same as above. They get hp in their racial tree, so that will start to even out. Otherwise their hp shouldn't change. If you have an 18/2 sorc then yes you'll lose 5hp over the current enhancements, assuming of course you invest absolutely nothing into the racial.

Now, Favoured souls do lose out. So do Fighters, Barbs, Paladins, and Druids.

This 80hp thing is also needs to be addressed so that people can't keep spreading the wrong information.

Let's take a Dwarven Fighter. It costs 10ap for the 40hp you get from being a Dwarf, and 10ap for the 40hp you get from being a Fighter. You spent 20ap on just hp, and that's the only way you're getting 80hp from toughness enhancements.

5 of the 13 classes have a chance at losing 60hp from these changes, and only if you had them as dwarves or toasters with 1/4th of their ap spent into hp. Not 80hp, 60hp. Now, on average those 5 classes will lose between 10-30hp. All races get at least 2 racial toughnesses, but only those 5 classes get any for themselves.

Now, where this becomes a problem is multiclass builds. I personally think it should be every 4 levels, not every 5. This allows for 25hp for pures, but is less restrictive on multiclass builds.

But no. This is not a massive deficit across the board like people have been saying.

[unbongwah]

My concern isn't the loss of the racial Toughness enhs, which is a wash in the long run for most builds; it's the changes to the class Toughness enhs. Why do, e.g., ftrs need to invest in SD tree to gain bonus HPs?

Sure, you can gain a lot of HPs thru gear & buffs, but what about those players who don't have access to all that stuff? I.e., the newbies, the guild-less, the casual DDOers - all the people who are supposed to be helped by not making Toughness de facto mandatory like it is now. By reducing the amount of HPs they can gain cheaply (thru Toughness + a few APs), you're actually making it harder for those players, not easier. That, umm, probably wasn't Turbine's intent.

[Scrag]

Power attack is also mandatory for anyone willing to use melee weapon for more than casting bonuses.
Should it also be free for everyone?

Er. Toughness was a requirement, because no matter what you were, you had to take it. Power attack, not so much. I have wizards and clerics without it. I have a monk without it; given that she is a wis based monk, a few extra points of damage is not going to matter as much as a better chance to stun or kill outright.

So no, you do not need power attack to do decent dps. You do, however, need toughness and toughness enhs, no matter who you are. My level 7 wizard, with equip, can not survive the fall in the harbor from haverdasher to the pier below. It does ~60 hps, and I have 69 hps....

For me, getting rid of this trashy must-have feat is the best thing since sliced and prebuttered bread.