Epic Level & Iconic TR

[pjw]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System

...

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System


If that's the choice, then I would most emphatically vote option 2.

That said, depending on how much you wanted to vary it, I would also be happy to have a single ED reset in order to gain the related ED Feat.

The entire eXP->hXP system seems completely borked to me. A better approach might be to let *every* eTR return at level 8/15/20/whatever, no matter what their ED XP, but they are still going to need to grind a lot of low level favour, so it's really mostly pointless.

[Qhualor]

Hi.
Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
• Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
• Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
• Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
• Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
• And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

I like Option 2 the best, but there is still one big question that a lot of us are concerned about and we have yet to see a comment on or part of a suggestion.

first, the reasons why I like Option 2 more than 1 is because it keeps the activity flowing in the lower levels. the vet experienced players are still just as common grouping with new and inexperienced players, hopefully helping them learn DDO if they are willing to learn. I like it not because I like killing Sahuagin for the millionth time or that I enjoy running Korthos quests and so shouldn't everyone else, but I fear that with probably a lot less experienced player presence and a lot less lower level activity so new players wont think the game is a ghost town or the frustrations of learning to play and build characters. I feel there would be too big of a split in population. who knows, maybe it would work out fine.

keeping the ED xp would answer the the question about fate points, I would assume? that's the one big thing that a lot of us are concerned about. personally, im fine with losing my ED xp and having to re-level through it for the past life, but I would have a major problem with grinding out destinies for fate points a second time. its a very long and boring process and how the fate point situation is handled is what would make many people decide, including me, if I would ever TR again. with more classes eventually being added and changes to builds all the time, TRing would still be a tempting possibility for some of us to fix our build, to gain a past life feat or to accomplish completionist. I wouldn't even bother if I had to repeat the long boring grind again if I wasn't able to lock my fate points, keep my twists or something.

I really feel epic xp should be totally separate from heroic xp. one doesn't have anything to do with the other and we shouldn't reap the benefit in heroic leveling. I would like to think one of the reasons why it was suggested to use epic xp to skip some heroic levels is to help reduce the TR grind, but a better way to do that would be to reduce the xp requirements for a 2nd and 3rd life TR. at least for 3rd life anyways.

[kwyjibo_lol]

So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

What about heroic reincarnation? Are we expecting to see ED wipe mechanism?

Epic completionists should have some epic grind, heroic shouldn't have both.

[Kerthyn]

So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

Hi,
I think a combination of both might be good. With the main idea of option 2, allow the option of using ED XP into an XP bank optional but not required. Also i think allowing a choice of which destinies we want to convert to the XP bank instead of all destines would be nice.

[magn0liafan]

first, the reasons why I like Option 2 more than 1 is because it keeps the activity flowing in the lower levels. the vet experienced players are still just as common grouping with new and inexperienced players, hopefully helping them learn DDO if they are willing to learn. I like it not because I like killing Sahuagin for the millionth time or that I enjoy running Korthos quests and so shouldn't everyone else, but I fear that with probably a lot less experienced player presence and a lot less lower level activity so new players wont think the game is a ghost town or the frustrations of learning to play and build characters. I feel there would be too big of a split in population. who knows, maybe it would work out fine.

Bags, I didn't think of this. That is a very good point. As a new-ish DDO player (who is a bit of a number cruncher and researcher) I would be comfortable knowing that there are vets playing characters at my level, should I want to group.

I would have to say that I am leaning more toward option 2 myself. Bear in mind, however they do have other options that they are either developing or just simply haven't brought to the table yet.

[DagazUlf]

Option 1 is completely unacceptable.

Option 2 is getting somewhat closer to realistic.

Keep working on it.

[Kers]

Hi.
Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.


How about actually coding in several options at TR, where the player can select the one that they prefer. Don't perma-lock them into that option by giving the choices again the next time they TR.

Just a thought.

[oradafu]

Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.

As others have stated, players who are "already very invested in ED's" doesn't include just players who capped out all their EDs. For example, I have two toons that each have about 10 million XP each invested EDs (and a few others with alot lesser amount). I believe I'm just as invested as a player who only has one character with all capped EDs. If you add up all the ED XP across all of my toons, it would have more investment than the player who only plays on one toon but has all the EDs capped. So I'm still seeing a disconnect between what the players and Devs consider an invested player.



Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.


Option 2 is pretty much what I've been suggesting. There still needs to be some work done, such as giving the upper heroic quests some decent XP to help alleviate the artificial segregation of heroic and epic players.

BTW, the many reason that Option 1 won't sit well with many people is because the XP can only be used in Heroic levels. That doesn't help the majority of players who find grinding EDs that don't work with their class/builds very, very unfun. Heavy armored players grinding through GMoF sucks. Casters grinding through the Martial sphere sucks. Melees grinding through most of the caster EDs sucks. Ranged players grinding through practically everything but Shiradi sucks.

[CorinBrightbane]

There are also players that have completionists that have been that way for 2 years plus and have max'd ED's. These players should not just be thrown under the bus.

Agreed. Or 3x completionists with all Ed capped. It would be nice not to grind out some of the lives I didn't enjoy that much just to get the epic completionist. As they have already been done, multiple times. It would be a shame for those of us who have done this to have to play 20 levels that are not earning anything for us....just to play a few levels to get an epic destiny past life.

Perhaps something in the way of if you have 3 past lives already you get to start at level 20 in the tr as that class.

I have no trouble with people starting at 1 and earning heroic and epic past lives. It's just too tough to imagine all the time put into already earning the heroic past lives as essentially wasted from an xp earning standpoint.

As of now...definitely option 2

[Dhalgren]

How about actually coding in several options at TR, where the player can select the one that they prefer. Don't perma-lock them into that option by giving the choices again the next time they TR.

Just a thought.

Bad idea. It is more design time, more coding time, and more code to maintain down the road. Better to take the time beforehand to come up with one good, cohesive system.

[Vargouille]

So you're going to reimburse Epic XP on a 1:1 scale even though Epic XP comes with about a 300% bonus? You will have people just farming Epic XP, cashing it in for Heroic just to run Epic again. Rinse, repeat and more than likely you will see your first epic completionist in less than a month.

One goal is to fairly reimburse time invested without promoting Epic vs. Heroic based on XP/minute.

The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.


Fate Points: An example dive into some details
We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)


How about actually coding in several options at TR, where the player can select the one that they prefer. Don't perma-lock them into that option by giving the choices again the next time they TR.

This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).

[CorinBrightbane]

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.



Thanks for the post. I would also say "wasteful" to play heroic if you already have 3 past lives of that class!

[QuickSlick79]

Love the recent communication from the Dev's.

I'm loving a good portion of the idea's on the table. I think you guys are getting on the right track. I'm not gonna over analyze your posts, because it is clear that we now have your ear and you are being flexible. The wait for a response was certainly worth it to get some of the info you have given.

To chime in my opinion on "investment" however.

I've only ever grabbed one, maybe one and a half, and as little as half an Epic Destiny tree per TR. I may not have EVERY ED maxed out, but just going at my own casual pace, I have filled a good portion of them up. Still less than halfway done, but I truly cherish all that work, and PLAN my ED experience gain around my Heroic TR paths.

I value this time I invested in my ED's. Mostly the Fate Points are what attract me. I also accept the fact that systems and code have their limits, even when you've had full control and say in it from day 1. You impress me constantly with the work you are able to do on the complex system you've reported to have.

In the end, the issue is taking away what was earned. It doesn't have to be a Max ED map to hurt you and make you feel invalidated. Let's face it, not very many people have JUST 1 ED ((But PLENTY do, some of my toons are only ever going to be 1 class and not feel the need for extra twist power)). And having MORE than 1 ED is what would hurt with the first option on the table, the "Lose all Epic ED experience upon TR."

It is most wise to plan for the pleasure of all the players despite their progress. But I fail to see how hurting the most dedicated players by wiping all their experience in ANY way makes the experience better for those with only 1 ED. In fact, in all ways it makes it worse. They don't have more powerful vet's to learn from, they have ANGRY fellow players who may be feeling cheated at a loss of progress questing with them, and build idea's and creativity will be suppressed because suddenly the plethora of Epic Destiny options people could have worked to have at their disposal, be it 3 ED's or all of them maxed, could be reduced to "You have only 2 Fate points and one ED tree".

I know you are in between a rock and a hard place. Change is needed, and a revamp of the system to bring in something new. I guess as a player, my question is why wasn't more room laid down for this with MoTu? Did you guys feel like Epic Destinies had no room to grow? Did you have no plans for how TRing would work when you rolled Epic Destinies out?

Why is it, you had to give a system to us one way, and then in order to mix it up, add to it, or change it at all you basically have to upend how the current system has worked completely up to this point. I don't have a GREAT memory, but I don't think it is often you have added something to the DDO store to help with your system (Keys, however bugged they may have been) only to take it away because only a year later you want to completely change it on it's face from what it was. ((I know Keys are gone for a different reason, but now their entire point would be a little useless))

But I am happy to see it doesn't HAVE to be this way. I see some great ideas floated by even the Dev's now, that take this whole thing in a direction that makes me happy and eager to play again, and maybe even fresh and interesting enough to try and bring in new players.

As it stands, I'm a little ashamed to introduce the game to anyone. Lots of "stop wiggling node" errors coming from my enemies, and please, believe me when I say lots of angry banter IN game from fellow players over their characters futures. Not a great environment to put new players in. ((But still better than some of the buggy conditions of Updates Past))

You've stirred the pot, now let's make some tasty soup.

[Citzen_Gkar]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

The drive to 20 is FAR less painful and Far more enjoyable than maxing out 5 EDs, especially since to max 5 you are pretty much guaranteed to have gone through a couple HORRIBLE ones to get to where you are going. It's not a good trade off, period. If you insist on this path I do however agree that a one time grandfathering of all existing maxed out EDs is critical or you totally kill ETR for everyone who has been running epic for the last year.


Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

This is not far off from several suggestions. It's a VERY good change in direction.

I'm almost afraid to make any suggestions in case it takes you away from this direction lol.

Although you haven't commented on it, I'm also assuming you will get a Heroic PL feat in the ETR (So for example if running a cleric life I get a cleric past life and then the PL from the ED I select). We wouldn't want to get just the epic one or it wouldn't probably be worth the effort for the payback.

Ah what the heck, not that I want the system to be more punitive, but if you ended up feeling that option 2 wasn't punitive enough, clearing the ED XP for the one destiny we are TRing would be consistent with what you did with heroic TR.

Now I'm assuming the above is all for ETR. For Heroic TR please just leave it as it is. It honestly works well for what it does now.



Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

I don't understand why this SHOULD be a goal. Doesn't it make more sense to work on heroic when heroic and epic when epic? I mean I can't earn ED by grinding more content while I'm at L19, why should it work the other way around?

If this was really important to you for some marketing reason then I'd suggest 2 flavors of hearts. One that works closer to option 1 above and one that works closer to option 2 above. Yes, that's double the work (if not more) but its the only way you can really address that goal of yours without crippling TR for those who also want to pursue ED.

[QuickSlick79]

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.


Love your detailed post. Very informative, and I thank you for the information. I've quoted above just the little bit I can actually chime on with something valid.

To me, Epic Destiny experience isn't viewed as wasteful when my concern is Past Lives. Every Epic tree has something that could make any class better. And with the system you've given us, taking some time to level the next ED tree could mean my next TR has an even EASIER time when I get to Epic with HIS class. Or it means I get an ability that helps with my CURRENT class BEFORE I TR. It does ALWAYS mean I get more fate points to unlock more powerful options.

All of this is very enticing to me with your current system, and gives me plenty of reason to stay in Epic level range for a little while before I continue my TR journey.

That's why the first option laid out saddens me and makes me feel invalidated. I've planned with Epic Destinies in mind for my TR path. With option 1 on the table, you guys take out ALL the work I've put forth for Epic Level play. It makes me feel RESTRICTED to either Heroic or Epic, rather than happy to enjoy and gain from both worlds for as long as I see enjoyable.

Certainly other players have different play styles. I can see people getting right to 20 and then Tr'ing. And I see lots of people sticking around Epic content to enjoy that. Which I guess is why I'm confused. Lot's of people seem to feel happy with how things are, but eager to see an expansion on the systems. But instead, it feels like we are being offered a revamp and roll back to make changes "fair" or to work.

Again, no anger here. I am pleased as punch with the communication, and just trying to voice one players style of advancement and enjoyment in game.

[BOgre]

Hi.
Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as: (( 1st of all, THIS is MUCH needed, THANKS!! Please do us all a favour and always always include this 'goals' info whenever your posting about new changes. :) ))
• Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
• Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
• Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
• Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
• And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.


A banked XP system is not terrible, except that I think you are still looking at ED TR backwards. The maxed and marked destiny you are TRing is the only one that should be reset. This mirrors the current heroic TR system and makes sense logically. You gain a feat in that destiny's flavor, at the cost of having to re-level that destiny. Granting XP stones (or however you plan to work that) that can then only be used in heroic levels is counter intuitive at best. Heroic XP is just not what we feel is the real Grind in the system. Moreover, if TRing at lvl28 and being sent to lvl 1 is your plan, then both an ED past life feat AND a heroic past life feat should be granted. Otherwise Epic TR should only send you back to level 20. This way, Heroic TR can remain more or less unchanged, in that completionists and others looking for heroic PL feats can maintain their current system. Logical.

As for optimizing towards a "good" play experience, this should be crystal clear: more content. Please do not mistake Reincarnation for content. Reincarnation is a purely optional way for players to trade time for "slightly" more character power. It is a time sink (which is not inherently a bad thing), but it should never attempt to replace content (which IS inherently a GOOD thing). And by content I do mean more high level quests, raids, and explorer areas. Ideally you'd like to have "End Game" equal to a VERY re-playable, very fun, and long-term-rewarding experience. That probably means handing out a wide variety of highly sought items, such as both low and high level augments, tradeable scrolls, seals, shards for old epic crafting, infact ALL kinds of crafting materials from all over the game's history, like Shroud materials, Scales, Alchemical stuff, etc. And of course All should be BtA, NO BTC.

At this point in the game you should be aware that there is NO shortage of low level content. There is more than enough XP to level and cap. ALL future content development should be targeted squarely at end-game players, giving them the option to NOT TR, and still have fun.

[arkonas]

Hi.
Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
• Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
• Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
• Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
• Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
• And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

i think both options are viable sort of like a veteran status. some people want to start at level 1 from 28 while others want 20. so lets give them the option to pick either one instead.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.

I think your perspective might be off on this subject. I feel there are mainly 3 types of players, casuals, casual/hardcore and finally hardcore.

*Casual - I feel play only on the weekend and sometimes don't play every week depending on their time constraints, many of them like cool gear but are not very focused on it as they know they don't really have the time for it etc. I have many like this in my guild some have lots of nice gear and some have quite a few past live but then many have been playing since 2006. Many of these suffer from altitis and follow certain builds but very loosely

*casual/hardcore - We have some like these in my guild (myself included) we have more time to play the game but sometimes take mini breaks due to RL, we can play everyday for 2 weeks several hours a day but then not have time to play for a couple weeks. Sometimes we can play everyday for a couple months etc it all varies depending on our time constraints. Many of us have a more focused playstyles than say the "casual". We have a specific build and many of us have a TR "plan".We like min/maxing but are maybe not the top experts at it.

We often like to spread out our area of play. When we TR we WANT to play the lower levels, when we get into epic levels and endgame we want to play there for awhile and not have our efforts be wasted time. I myself like to do at least 20 abbot runs per endgame/TR. We however can take some time doing this as we often "pug it".

*hardcore - These are the ones you know and tend to be quite vocal. They have specific build that they run with specific goals in mind, they often are very very good at min/maxing and multi-classing. Many dislike to remain at lower level very long, like TR zerg runs and 37hr to one week TRs etc etc you get the type.

All these group deserve to play as it pleases them within the rules Turbine themselves set forth with a reasonable expectation of not being penalized by Turbine for playing in such a way.

I myself am in the casual/hardcore category so forgive me if I say I feel you are way way off base when you say, "Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs"

Look at my main characters Epic Destinies, I did some RB farming but very little as I find it mind numbingly boring. I do love to do raids though and made sure in my previous TR to avoid most I would run endgame and thereby avoiding repeat penalties. I also did quite a bit of gear farming. Then TR when I got tired of it.

Don't you think if I have this all done in a casual/hardcore manner when I have been on hiatus from DDO since I have been in Neverwinter alphas and betas testing it and seeing what they do in OB you may be rather understating how much peeps have invested in the ED? Also consider my wife, with whom I play as we duo everything (except raids), were about to start playing DDO as our main game again (since Neverwinter is going live soon and we don't care for the game-play or the direction the game is going in) but when I looked in the forums to see what was up this really killed both our intentions of playing.

I mean whats the point if come U20 all our progress is going to go down the drain? Heh all this after swallowing we are going to be pushed into cookie cutter builds with the enhancement pass.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd310/SilkofDrasnia/ddo/EpicDestniyMapview_zpsa1a62748.png

Banking XP is not a terrible idea but there's a large amount of people for whom this does nothing and is outright undesirable.

option one must be a no vote from me with a yes for option 2

Again I refer you to this post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418543-Epic-Level-amp-Iconic-TR?p=5022378&highlight=#post5022378)

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

The sudden "out in force" response is interesting, safe to say you guys have heard how disenfranchised many DDO forum goers feel lately.

I'd really like to see something similar with the Enhancement pass post alpha... The angst over this Epic TR issue is concentrated on one focal point (losing hard earned ED's)... the Pass has so many focal points so many things going on that I feel despite appearances, that the "angst" over it was actually bigger, and more unanimous, but it was "Protector sucks", "lack of cleric domains sucks" and "Spell singer temp SP procs sucks" and "Having to use a shield to get anything from DOS/Stalwart sucks" and etc over almost every tree.

TR'ing is a big part of the game for many, but for me personally (and I'm sure some significant portion of the player base) it's character builds I don't have the time for TR's. For that reason the Pass is more important to me personally... Would love to see some similar dialog... not just statements but dialog in the beta phase.

Like you guys know that 2 small changes and almost no builds would "break" right? AP spent in tree change back to AP spent overall (as live), and take all the old "generic" enhancement lines and put them in the generic tree, instead of splitting them up arbitrarily into PrE trees. The key word is arbitrary... Arbitrary is almost always bad if there's an alternative, and a fourth "basic enhancement tree" is an easy alternative.

Sorry for the derail but being honest I'm a little jealous of the response TR'ing has gotten compared to the overwhelming silence of the post-Alpha enhancement pass.

[Feithlin]

Fate Points: An example dive into some details
We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)


You could have a table keeping into memory max levels earned into EDs. Fate points would be based on these. That way, someone could make the various EDs through multiple lives, each getting the levels into a specific ED, or through one life, and not getting anymore fate points the next lives. To help the players keep track of levels they earned into the various EDs, you could implement a simple popup window similar to the combat or spell abilities on the character sheet, showing the max level obtained in each ED.

Since English isn't my first language, I'll give a little example to make it clearer:
GRUNT does a barbarian life and levels LD to rank 3 and FotW to rank 5. He TRs and can see he has those max ranks in those destinies. During this new life, he levels LD to rank 2 (from 0 again) and PA to rank 5. When he TRs again, he will see the following max ranks: LD 3, FotW 5, PA 5.

[BOgre]

Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.

I have to agree with others when they say you're underestimating how many people have invested heavily in EDs. I haven't focused strongly on maxing my EDs, I play alts, I play on more a few servers with a few static groups, so you'd call me one of those that take a very long time to take a character through content. And still I have a significant investment in EDs, one that i'd be furious over losing.

Whatever mining system you're using to give you that data is way off. That or you're interpreting it wrong. Please don't make the mistake of underestimating people's perceived investment in your game.

[Ferial_Flumph]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.



So far the most vocal support, especially among those “heavily invested” in there ED's seems to be going towards option 2... and I'm not sure I understand why.

This is my reasoning:

Epic TR is coming, some will use it some won't, I plan on using it.

That means I'm planing on leveling up to 28 multiple times.

We don't know what the remapping of the xp curve will look like, but right now 20-25 takes 3 million xp. Capping a destiny takes 2/3 this amount. What ever the number ends up for 20-28, if I'm in an uncapped destiny while leveling I gain destiny xp at the same time. If all my destines are caped I just gain the epic levels I'm planing on turning in when I TR anyway. The idea of banking some xp to bootstrap my next 1-20 at the same time I'm leveling 20-28 doesn’t sound like such a bad deal.

It would also give me the option of lingering at end game if I want, without feeling like I'm falling behind on my long range TR goals.

I understand that 20-28 will be easier and faster with maxed destines and twists, and I know all too well what a pain it is to level a destiny that doesn't fit your character, but long term planing and optimization is part of the complexity that makes ddo interesting and fun. Planing out an epic TR path is just another example.

[GermanicusMaximus]

"Don't come to me with your problems, come to me with your solutions.". Now that may seem harsh but when you have 20 developers who, like your good self are very clever and erudite individuals, you encourage them to do a bit of thinking for themselves before they come to you with a problem.

Good advice, which is why earlier in this thread I started a post saying "If I was designing this..."

Its nice that you have worked your way up to have 20 developers reporting to you. When I was but a lad of 30, I had 155 world class developers (spread across 2 US states and Japan) taking design guidance from me. I'll be happy to compare notes, when you catch up. By the way, that was over 20 years ago. You probably need to start running faster.

Do you play DDO at work? I admit, I really don't know what an "Uber completionist" is, but it sounds really time consuming.


After all, if such lofty goals work for you then who's to say who else this wisdom may help.


For the sake of accuracy, I should note that they really weren't goals for me, as they were achieved without prior planning. They did, however, seem to be reasonable starter goals for you. Once you achieve them, by all means let me know, and I'll try to find something a bit more challenging. Baby steps.

[Orratti]

At any rate whatever you do with the mechanics of the game in the future make them set in stone. Stick to one set of rules. Considering that you are making sweeping game changes on all levels you are rewriting the game's player's handbook so to speak and once done that is hopefully going to be the set of rules that we will all be living by no matter the whining and calls for nerfs or changes. I wish you the best of luck and foresight as you venture into uncharted waters.

[ufo2013]

Heroic TR
- retain current system
- available at level 20+
- all character xp will be lost (back to level 1)
- no loss of Epic Destiny xp
- +2 build point (up to 36pt)
- gain passive past life feat

Epic TR
- same system as Heroic TR system but available only at level cap (28)
- all character xp will be lost (back to level 1)
- no loss of Epic Destiny xp
- +2 build point (up to 38pt)
- gain passive past life feat (same one as Heroic TR)
- purchaseable past life feat is now auto-granted at level 3 (cannot/need not be purchased anymore)

Epic Destiny Bonding
- no loss of character xp (a level 28 remains 28)
- available for any capped Epic Destiny (1.98m xp)
- choose a capped Epic Destiny to bond
- all xp in that Epic Destiny is lost (back to level 0 in that bonded destiny)
- that Epic Destiny is now "bonded"
- back to level 0 in that Epic Destiny
- leveling thru a "bonded" ED requires more xp every rank (eg. 1st rank at 48K instead of 32k)
- +2 points to spend in bonded ED (2 pts available at level 0)
- Fate points not lost from loss of ED levels but regaining levels in bonded ED will also not give more Fate points

Epic Destiny Completionist
- bonding all available EDs grant passive ED completionist feat (granted at level 20)

[SerPounce]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System


Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System


Of those I prefer option 2. O1 sounds kind of byzantine, and likely to create unintended incentives.

Option 2 + XP rewards and requirements re-balancing would be good.

[LeoLionxxx]

Hi.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

The whole banking-xp thing doesn't sit well with me. There is plenty of content for players to level up without huge bursts of non-quest XP. The baking is not needed as it encourages players to skip levels and content. Content is fun, and leveling is fun.

My suggestion:

At level 28 (cap lv, so when the cap goes up, the requirement for this will as well) you can Epic-TR, which will grant a past life feat for your class (as normal), as well as allow you to choose one maxed out Destiny (or more, perhaps up to 3?), reset the XP for that(those), and grant ED feat(s) depending on that. Other destiny XP remains the same.
This way you still get your Epic True reincarnation which gives both an epic and heroic past life feat, and players loose only the Epic Destiny XP they want to loose.

Also, does there need to be a special 'iconic reincarnation' mechanic? Why not just make it so that any True reincarnation will bring you to the character creation screen and allow you to make your Icon character just like a first time-creation? I am in favor, however, of giving Icons their own special past-life feat, and only letting them Epic TR.

[noneill]

I would not do an Epic TR if it is option 1.
I think Heroic should be separate from Epic. They are now, lets keep it that way. Heroic XP is easy to get. I can solo to 15 or just grab the first 6 people and go on Elite BB. After that I might go to Hard BB or actually be picky about groups and stick with E BB.
Grinding out ED XP in an ED that has nothing for your class is not fun at all. I don't care about the potential XP/min. I spent about 10 months after MOTU came out grinding ED XP, not going to do that again.

I think ED XP should be kept separate from Epic XP and if you Epic TR you just do Epic levels 20-28 over. Have a separate ED TR where you do them one at a time.

If we can't have that, then I could accept Option 2. Not perfect but I would consider doing it.

[count_spicoli]

Wow. love seeing the dev interaction. Keep it up.

On your proposals. Proposal 2 for me is a no brainer. Losing all my ed xp is not an option. I really would like to see twists kept as well. So much grind was put into this that th though of losing this makes me ill.

As far as easing the tr grind why wont you just fix xp in the 18-20 range. If you made cannith, amarath iq the riddle an murder by night viable xp like 3 times what they are now people would be ecstatic. Your refusal and silence on this is ridiculous. And its an easy fix. We saw how you just turned off eveningstar challenge xp with the push of a button. Why not jus t turn on xp in the 18-20 range. EVERYONE WOULD BE HAPPY WITH THIS. I dont think a single person that plays th game would complain about this.


Vote proposal 2.

[Trasak]

I would like to throw this idea out again to see if it can get more traction. I would very much like to see some way to be in a capped tree and use that tree while unlocking twists and earning fate points from other trees. Certain class/race combinations are absolutely crippled in specific EDs (Adamantine Body WF FVS face grinding uncentered through Grandmaster of Flowers) and significantly negatively effects the play experience. The best way I could think of implementing it would be to add a "gaining exp" button to the ED trees and an active destiny for the one you are gaining the abilities of.

[Lauf]

The drive to 20 is FAR less painful and Far more enjoyable than maxing out 5 EDs, especially since to max 5 you are pretty much guaranteed to have gone through a couple HORRIBLE ones to get to where you are going. It's not a good trade off, period. If you insist on this path I do however agree that a one time grandfathering of all existing maxed out EDs is critical or you totally kill ETR for everyone who has been running epic for the last year.


This.

Epic xp is epic xp. Even after reading this thread I still fail to see the connection you are trying to make between the epic xp and the heroic one. heroic xp is currently part of a natural progression of building a character, while epic xp is detached of your current build, and most commonly used to unlock a tree that *would* be beneficial.

what's my point? your design suggests takes epic xp, namely "grinding through a couple of HORRIBLE ones to get to where you want to go" and instead replacing it with heroic xp, usually gained by playing a build that we as players believe would be enjoyable to play (or we would have rolled a different build). this also results in forcing us to once again "grind through a couple of HORRIBLE ones to get to where we want to go"

and this for me is the major flaw of the trade. it's not about the amounts of xp granted in return, it's about forcing us to replay through destinies we hoped never to have to replay through ever again.

also, as was written before me :


I can't earn ED by grinding more content while I'm at L19, why should it work the other way around?


should you opt to go with an xp bank option for compensation, I urge you to make that xp bank available only while in epic levels, and grant epic xp only. epic xp was removed, epic xp will be granted. fair is fair.

personally, I would prefer a one time grandfathering of all existing maxed out EDs, but an epic xp bank is also a fair compensation.

heroic xp bank makes no sense to me.

[GermanicusMaximus]

The sudden "out in force" response is interesting, safe to say you guys have heard how disenfranchised many DDO forum goers feel lately.

I'd really like to see something similar with the Enhancement pass post alpha... The angst over this Epic TR issue is concentrated on one focal point (losing hard earned ED's)... the Pass has so many focal points so many things going on that I feel despite appearances, that the "angst" over it was actually bigger, and more unanimous, but it was "Protector sucks", "lack of cleric domains sucks" and "Spell singer temp SP procs sucks" and "Having to use a shield to get anything from DOS/Stalwart sucks" and etc over almost every tree.

TR'ing is a big part of the game for many, but for me personally (and I'm sure some significant portion of the player base) it's character builds I don't have the time for TR's. For that reason the Pass is more important to me personally... Would love to see some similar dialog... not just statements but dialog in the beta phase.

Like you guys know that 2 small changes and almost no builds would "break" right? AP spent in tree change back to AP spent overall (as live), and take all the old "generic" enhancement lines and put them in the generic tree, instead of splitting them up arbitrarily into PrE trees. The key word is arbitrary... Arbitrary is almost always bad if there's an alternative, and a fourth "basic enhancement tree" is an easy alternative.

Sorry for the derail but being honest I'm a little jealous of the response TR'ing has gotten compared to the overwhelming silence of the post-Alpha enhancement pass.

This.

From what I have heard in game lately, there is a fair amount of discontent over the dual issues of 1) the pending enhancement pass and 2) loss of Epic Destiny XP on any kind of TR.

There are some people on these forums who attempt to wave their hands and simplistically attribute it to "people are afraid of change." A far better assessment is that people have spent a substantial amount of time developing their toons, and they dislike the idea of having all that time spent invalidated.

Frankly, invalidating all that time spent is an open invitation to the affected people to look at options other than DDO. If that is one of the design goals of the development team, then it is succeeding. If not, the development team needs to increase its focus on preserving that time investment as a means of retaining the existing player base.

[MarcusCleardawn]

....

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.

....
).

Props Vargouille. This is a wonderful disclosure that sheds light on some of the motivation for the nuking xp posited in the original OP.

It seems that you have as a goal Epic TR as creating an Epic Experience for Heroic Experience exchange. That's the only way that running an additional 8 levels of content would allow efficient earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Now whether that exchange is based upon exchanging Destiny experience for heroic experience, or giving credit for a past life based on a maxed "off destiny" I leave to you. I think this is a bad idea because the proposals seems to end up with someone taking a new class and immediately leveling up to the high teens or even 20 without learning a darned thing about the class. Do you really think it will make a good play experience to throw people that far into the deep end?

With respect to Piloto:
I appreciate your response about the goals of the new TR system, but with all due respect, I sincerely doubt there is anything in your code that requires you to nuke Epic Destiny Experience to:

• Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
• Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
• Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.

As for maximizing good play experience, it seems we just disagree. I find absolutely nothing fun about running epic content "off destiny" that is to say being in a destiny that isn't appropriate to my class but necessary for grinding Fate Points or unlocking adjacent destinies more appropriate to my class. Doubly unfun if all that work gets nuked after it was stated it was permanent.

As for providing incentives for players to concentrate on different destinies than their most recent past life, how are we to accomplish this? Are you getting rid of the requirement to grind through and unlock adjacent destinies? Or are we just supposed to buy keys every life? Or are you allowing the newly minted 20 the opportunity to select a new destiny?

Seriously, I appreciate the response even if we are miles apart on this.

[UurlockYgmeov]

to Turbine for establishing open communication PRIOR to things being set in stone (other than something IS coming)

to Players for keeping this thread healthy and positive; I don't see trolling or flaming and MANY constructive thoughts and ideas. Kudos!

I see the one time (first time) bonding of all maxed ED an excellent incentive to translate.

Am concerned that there are some rumors floating around that existing past life feats (passive) might be changed in this. Many I would hope aren't - but if there is an intent - please keep the dialog open and allow the community to have its input prior to solidifying changes.

As far as other places of concern - thank you for saying that. Wish there was this level of communication is at least one other thread (which I will not name) of personal concern (which affects all).

[Drus-the-Axe]

I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers...

Indeed. And I for one am very glad to see Turbine folks stepping up to the plate and engaging the community. I've been a long-time DevTracker lurker and like the increased level of engagement y'all are making.

There's a lot of angst. Things are changing, and the limited information to date has some concerned. OTOH, Turbine's track record when it comes to community engagement and responsiveness to feedback gives many good reason for pause. "Past performance is no indicator of future performance" ...but that's how the smart money bets. And the recent Enhancement alpha may have been intentionally forced towards single-class to gather data, but that slant wasn't well communicated, known and received. If the next Enhancement pass is less restrictive you'll earn a lot of ears willing to hear you out (and conversely, if it's not appreciably better in key ways, the soldiers of DOOM! will be more firmly entrenched, and their ranks will swell).

Take the calls of DOOM! with a large grain of salt (as should many on these forums...) and be patient. Turbine's rep has a certain...aroma. It takes time to change that. (If indeed that's that case)

And remember, it's the internet. Grow some trollhide, pit up some extra Toughness feats and get used to the calls of DOOM! DOOM I SAY! outmassing the rest by 10-1 (at least).

-- DrusTheAxe

P.S. I like the intended changes to LR and the XP curves. Undecided about the ED changes, but I'm more of a heroic player than epic so I'm less knowledgeable and less vested at that end of the scale than others.

[Cetus]

Heres my solution:

Keep the heroic and epic TR systems segregated

The use of an existing heart allows a level 20 and above character to start at level 1 and receive the appropriate past life for their previous class. Just like it works today. All epic destiny xp is retained.

The use of an EPIC heart allows a capped (level 28) character to start as a level 20 character and receives a past life for the destiny they bound upon reincarnation. All XP for that bound destiny is lost, and needs to be earned again. All unbound destiny xp REMAINS.

This character does NOT earn a heroic past life for their class, they only earn the epic past life.

Leave the XP curves the way they are. Grinding from level 20-->28 should be a long path, especially with only 10 new quests.

This is the simplest method I can think of that keeps everyone happy.

Finally make the heroic completionist and epic completionist feats FREE. This places all classes regardless of feat availability on an even playing field - and gives progression opportunities to everyone.

Additionally, this system has nothing to do with fate points. Your fate points are earned based on total destiny level, as it works now. New destiny's disable completionist just as a new class disables heroic completionist. Earning this new destiny, binding it, and Epic TR'ing regrants your completionist and also gives you extra fate points from grinding that new destiny out.

Simple.

[Silverleafeon]

Fate Points: An example dive into some details
We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

I agree if you let Fate Points build up then you are going to cause a max grind situations
of the best thing to do is grind out every epic destiny then bind one, and so forth.
Not really desirable. One could easily start grinding out 40 fate points a life,
if the level cap on epic destinies goes to 10 (and we both know it will).

I agree there could be bug problems, TRing is the last ditch fix for a toon,
so TR will need to be streamline as is its nature.


I am willing to comprise by placing fate point bonuses on epic destiny past lives,
then resetting the fate points each life. However this needs to be a significant number.
You need to decide where you plan to cap epic destiny levels (10?) then make it something
like 10 fate points per epic destinies as I suggested before.

Or lets look at number here: Total of available epic destiny levels (10) divided by 3 = 3.33
times 2ish cause we might cap two instead of one =7ish plus a one time earnable bonus
cause you want us to be happy and you can afford to be generous as long as we cannot
spiral it out of control = ?

Remember you are no longer expecting us to max all our epic destinies out, which
was previously the only way to have fate points.

The Cookie Monster Fate Math Machine chews up Fate Points like nobodies business,
and I highly recommend allowing some upgrade on the Twists by granting us two
or three more twist slots.

4 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 4 twists requires
10 / 14 / 18 / 22 / 26 = 90 fate points

An epic completionist under this formula would have 110 fate points before
earning the typical 3+ twist potential from normal epic destiny levels.

If you add an extra twist slot a bonus for epic completionist (highly recommended)
if would require 30 fate points to fill up (for a total of 120 fate points needed).

So, this formula would work fairly close imho.

[Silverleafeon]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Ok, I'll take that if you can program it, I am game.

One time bonus of three bond ED would be appreciated.

[Silverleafeon]

The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

~Erik
@producerglin

A sincere thank you.

[TorkRaider]

I still believe that Turbine reneging on its promise ** that ED leveling would not be wiped out upon TRing ** is a very bad plan, with very negative repercussions if implemented. However, I also think the discussions proposing either compensation or an alternative are valuable. To that end, here’s my suggested approach to compensate players who bought access to EDs, Key(s) of Destiny, Tome(s) of Fate and time spent leveling EDS in exchange for the wiping of ED XP upon ETR goes as follows:

1. Each character may bind up to 3 maxed EDs earned prior to conversion (U20) prior to ETRing. If a character has two maxed EDs they can bind both. If a character has 11 maxed EDs they could bind any 3 (but only three) they chose.

2. After the first TR a character may only bind 1 additional ED each ETR.

3. Any unbound Destinies would be subject to having the XP wiped when (if) they ETR.

4. Any Tomes of Fate used by a character would be retained after ETR.

5. For each Destiny maxed over 3, each character will receive 1 BTA Stone of XP to assist with ETRing that character. For example a character with 6 maxed EDs would bind 3 and receive 3 BTA Stones of XP. BTA status would let a player choose to use the Stone on that character or transfer it to another in their stable but would not allow the sale or transfer to other players.

6. All unlocked Destinies opened by a character would be retained regardless of whether they were unlocked with a Key of Destiny or via previously leveling a destiny. This would allow a ETRing character to more easily level a complementary ED on their next life. These changes would give characters the flexibility to switch between a few key destinies when needed and have access to some twists while leveling epics. 3 bound destinies would provide 5 fate points plus possibly 1 or 2 more if they’ve purchased a Tome of Fate giving them access to 3 Level 1 twists or 1 level 3 twist to help with their leveling. Lastly a player can choose whether to accelerate the ETR process.

Lastly I also agree with others that a Heroic TRs should not, in any way, affect or reset EDs but I do believe that the community as a whole by ETRs running at least some of the first 1-20 levels and so should start their TR at Level 1 even if they eventually use a Stone of XP to skip levels.

[Superhanns]

From a neutral point of view it looks ok, more options is always fun after all nobody is going to be forced to do it if they dont like it, new players might love it, they seem to really enjoy the current bladeforged so tr options there probably would be cool.

From a personal point of view it is bad, just got out completionist over 3 years and start to enjoy the fruits of my labour and then more tr options might come so now i got to do them now if i want my char optimal? how exhausting.. just reading it makes me uncomfortable, maybe im just burned out because its just putting nails in the coffin for me sadly instead of being able to enjoy what i earned already.

38 point builds? No thanks - already solo epic elite as it is, don't need more power don't want it. (yep probably in the minority here and thats fine)

while im at it and since a dev is likely to read it, im premium so the following isent biased, how about giving VIP's a break instead of charging them for expansions? they supoort you monthly as it is, ive already lost friends in game because of that and some stayed and barely play now because of it, i suppose this is going to happen with the next expansion, its not cool in my opinion, my voice is for them nothing more.

[Silverleafeon]

All unlocked Destinies opened by a character would be retained regardless of whether they were unlocked with a Key of Destiny or via previously leveling a destiny.

Aye

Or compromise ~ remove unlocking maps mechanic.

I don't mind if I don't get my TP points from keys back, but others might.

[noneill]

One thing I forgot to mention in my last post:
Even though we want you to take your time developing this, we do need more info as soon as possible.
The OP pretty much stated ED XP will be wiped out on TR of any kind. So we know the downside. The upside of the PL feats is an unknown at this point. Until we know if option 1 or option 2 (or 3 or 4) is the way you are going, players will feel like they should put ED xp on hold. Which of course is not good, people who stop playing to get ED xp might just do regular TR's or they may take a break and then not come back.
It is great that you started the dialogue so early but bad that you delineated the downside right from the start. Might have been better to say we are working on it, what do you think is a fair price to pay for ETRing? Now though you have us all in an uproar and wondering if all we did was for nothing and if we should bother playing until you sort it out.

[Tscheuss]

...

BTW, the many reason that Option 1 won't sit well with many people is because the XP can only be used in Heroic levels. That doesn't help the majority of players who find grinding EDs that don't work with their class/builds very, very unfun. Heavy armored players grinding through GMoF sucks. Casters grinding through the Martial sphere sucks. Melees grinding through most of the caster EDs sucks. Ranged players grinding through practically everything but Shiradi sucks.

When you TR, you may choose to plan your class and ED so they work well together; therefore, this aspect of your argument lacks relevance.

[Tscheuss]

Agreed. Or 3x completionists with all Ed capped. It would be nice not to grind out some of the lives I didn't enjoy that much just to get the epic completionist. As they have already been done, multiple times. It would be a shame for those of us who have done this to have to play 20 levels that are not earning anything for us....just to play a few levels to get an epic destiny past life.

Perhaps something in the way of if you have 3 past lives already you get to start at level 20 in the tr as that class.

I have no trouble with people starting at 1 and earning heroic and epic past lives. It's just too tough to imagine all the time put into already earning the heroic past lives as essentially wasted from an xp earning standpoint.

As of now...definitely option 2

There will be 4 Iconic options with available PL's that stack X3. These also start at level 15. TR runs with these will get you up to 12 Iconic PL's and all (currently) 11 ED PL's without re-running any of the heroic classes. :D

[BOgre]

One thing I forgot to mention in my last post:
Even though we want you to take your time developing this, we do need more info as soon as possible.
The OP pretty much stated ED XP will be wiped out on TR of any kind. So we know the downside. The upside of the PL feats is an unknown at this point. Until we know if option 1 or option 2 (or 3 or 4) is the way you are going, players will feel like they should put ED xp on hold. Which of course is not good, people who stop playing to get ED xp might just do regular TR's or they may take a break and then not come back.
It is great that you started the dialogue so early but bad that you delineated the downside right from the start. Might have been better to say we are working on it, what do you think is a fair price to pay for ETRing? Now though you have us all in an uproar and wondering if all we did was for nothing and if we should bother playing until you sort it out.

That's half of it, for sure. The other half is that this is a Game Mechanics Change. Changing game mechanics is a terrible idea for any game, in any stage of its life. It seems that Turbine has lost its fear of changing game mechanics though, they are doing it more frequently and with less regard for the consequences.

I think we can all agree that we'd prefer a stable game mechanic, more work on fixing bugs, more new content. If we're going to be forced to relearn the game every year, we'd rather just switch games altogether.

That was kindof off topic though...

Here's another reason Option 1 is no good, and why xp reset should ONLY occur on the maxed/flagged/selected/active destiny:

It take 3Mxp to cap from 20 to the current 25cap. Let's generously assume that it will be 6Mxp when the cap raises to 28. 6Mxp represents 3 capped Destinies. So running that content, earning that xp, then giving it up PLUS losing 2 destinies is not commensurate with the gain of one ED past life feat. It forces us to consider NOT having an uncapped destiny active while levelling, since any xp gained in it (in THEM actually, remember 4Mxp wasted!), will be lost anyways. And if we're not gaining usable xp, then why run in that state? In otherwords why eTR?

Now, that sounds hypocritical of me, since I'd advocate end-game content that wasn't xp-focused... but if the goal is provide replayability, time-sink, and a past life feat, then throwing out xp is counter productive.

Also, we really need to know what form the PL feat is going to take. At this point, with so many feat starved (or feat-maxed) builds, it NEEDS to be a 'granted' feat, not something we need to spend an epic feat selection on.

[rest]

blah blah blah

Why do you have to keep adding systems to an already overburdened engine? Every time a new system is put in place, it breaks half a dozen other things. Not to mention all the half-finished and abandoned systems we already have. How many crafting systems do we have? How many are actually finished? How many do we NEED? How many different types of ingredients are there? It's ridiculous.

How about just adding some much needed new content instead of another treadmill to make people re-run the same old stuff? The last "real" update (I don't count 18, because that stuff is just an awful ad for the next "expansion") was just a re-hash of years old content (gianthold).

[BOgre]

When you TR, you may choose to plan your class and ED so they work well together; therefore, this aspect of your argument lacks relevance.

Absolutely incorrect. I would most certainly NOT plan to eTR into some unknown class for some unwanted unneeded heroic past life feat if my intention was to gain a wanted needed planned for epic PL feat. Again why hTR needs to be separate from eTR.

[Silverleafeon]

Are you planning on raising the level of epic destinies to level 10 now or later?

Be careful you don't paint yourself into another corner.
But letting a few folks have an immediate advantage then other who
wait miss out.

I would advise you do it in conjunction with this, but others might disagree.


If you are not planning on raising the level to 10, then just open a toon like
mine with all epic destinies done, and look -- see its a ghost town there.
Plenty of room for double points spent.

Also, caster level = epic destiny level = +5
So level cap goes to 30 within two years, then you cannot level caster level at 25?

So by my reckoning, it has to increase to 10 to max the probably 30 character levels
we will see soon.

But if you do it now at the same time, then suddenly no one has maxed epic
destinies, and although some might max out three or so before ETRing, most
will not max out everything for obvious reasons.

Therefore, in these cases, the XP Bank situations trigger as being important,
particularly since you rightly so don't want to carry over fate points.

[Delacroix21]

The whole banking-xp thing doesn't sit well with me. There is plenty of content for players to level up without huge bursts of non-quest XP. The baking is not needed as it encourages players to skip levels and content. Content is fun, and leveling is fun.
.

For YOU it is.


A ongoing. Problem I see are the completionists etc. voicing their opinions against any XP banking system that will allow them to bypass some or all heroic content if enough is banked. These players represent such a fraction within a fraction of the player base but are highly vocal. They like the current system, have mastered the TR grind, and seem to oppose alternative systems that other players may enjoy more than 1-20 like them.


A XP banking system for TR lets capped characters stay at cap a while longer, and lets them enjoy the character they spent so much time building. Some builds only really shine at the higher levels, and they should not be forced into a system in order to increase their toons power (which is what many people want). The current system only reaches a certain portion of the player base.



To quote you guys, you don't "HAVE" to bank XP at cap before TRing. Keep doing it the old way if you like. Let us who want to farm our XP at level cap (even if it is at a reduced rate) do so. Everyone is happy!

[Silverleafeon]

There will be 4 Iconic options with available PL's that stack X3. These also start at level 15. TR runs with these will get you up to 12 Iconic PL's and all (currently) 11 ED PL's without re-running any of the heroic classes. :D

Aye that is my plan.


And over the next two years, let us add these"

Forgotten Gnome
Island Kobold
Lucky Halfling
Drow of Lolth
Assimitar of ???

[Silverleafeon]

Twists, twists, twists, twists, twists...


The happy bucket corn pail starts here.

[oradafu]

When you TR, you may choose to plan your class and ED so they work well together; therefore, this aspect of your argument lacks relevance.

And suggesting someone to TR into a class they either don't like to play or no longer need the past life feat for lacks complete relevance. How many times have you read in the forums that a player only plays melees because they don't like casters? How many times have you read that casters think melee play is mind-numbingly boring? So telling people that the way that they play the game isn't relevant is exactly the bossy-boss attitude that turns people off to any suggestions or opinions that you might have. What I stated is freakin' relevant because not all classes/builds are fun to play for all people. Players are as diverse as there are builds in the game.

[Raiderone]

Props Vargouille.

As for maximizing good play experience, it seems we just disagree. I find absolutely nothing fun about running epic content "off destiny" that is to say being in a destiny that isn't appropriate to my class but necessary for grinding Fate Points or unlocking adjacent destinies more appropriate to my class. Doubly unfun if all that work gets nuked after it was stated it was permanent.

.

I hear this all the time from players in my guild! Like when folks were using Shears of Fate. Very boring running a toon in an adjacent destiny especially ones that add nothing to class...

Make it that Bonded Epic Destiny remains active at full Tier while running adjacent destinies during Epic TR...

[Silverleafeon]

I am kind of tired of level 18 heroic.

Would like to see some banked xp reduce my stay there for the first ETR,
then keep some to gloat over.


While we are at it, maybe work on that xp spiral?
Hey if we give up our fate spiral, you can tone down the xp spiral?

[Teh_Troll]

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.


That is acceptable.

Why'd it take 60 pages of nerd-rage to get to this?

This option would actually get people to level up to 28 before TRing.

[Silverleafeon]

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

Oh, I totally missed reading this, so much new stuff.

This has merit too if we are getting fate points bonuses attached to the epic destiny past lives.

I assume when an ETR starts an Iconic life they still get the 15 bonus levels?
Otherwise, I want nothing to do with this.

Bear in mind again and again, its obvious to me the ED lvel cap will go up to 10
within the next three years, so plan all your work now around this.

Also, bear in mind, someday you might reconsider going past level 30,
in which case this again has some merit to it.

[Delacroix21]

I am kind of tired of level 18 heroic.

Would like to see some banked xp reduce my stay there for the first ETR,
then keep some to gloat over.


While we are at it, maybe work on that xp spiral?
Hey if we give up our fate spiral, you can tone down the xp spiral?

I would also like this addressed as well. It would be nice if TR XP penalties went away altogether. People would still buy plenty of XP pots etc. to get it done.

[Xaxx]

You guys want player strait talk.. ok how is this.

To EVERYONE who spent HOURS AND FLIPPIN MORE HOURS capping their ed's... this whole delete that 21 million xp is DDO's NGE.... period.

You wanna *bank* the exp.. fine strip it and put it all into my character and i'll burn 5 more trs out of it... that fine... but to simply strip someone of 20+ mil exp and say woops sorry we told you we wouldn't do that but oh well we decided we would....

HOMEY

DON'T

PLAY

DAT

Listen up and listen well bucko's... you guys almost killed this game with your near year of no content before f2p.... this... this whole rip off expansion that is NOT A FLIPPIN EXPANSION followed by even mentioning THIS amalgamation of complete and utter horse guts is an even WORSE idea than back then...

You guys need to really understand the idea of carrot and stick better... the idea is not to give us a baby carrot (epic tring) and in the same post offer us a stick that superman, the hulk, spider man, elminster, raistlin, max roid barry bonds, and kendo the magic spider monkey from the planet hokedy permasium couldn't lift TO-FLIPPING-GETHER (bending us over by stripping us of 21 mil xp for a non epic tr)

You want feed back, you want a strait answer out of your players there.... go ahead with your epic tr system, simply don't bend over all of us with some bs idea while doing it. Continue down that path, laugh at your player base and continue to do something JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA... see what happens to your lovely playing player base. I know that devs shouldn't always listen to players.. no way in hockey sticks... but when an idea .... or in the is general cast.... ONE SPECIFIC PART OF A BIG IDEA... is taken with such revultion... you may .. just MAY want to think about coming back with a better answer than double speak of *heres how we're still gonna nail ya, we're just gonna make it sound better."

The only answer we need is... OK OK we get it, stripping you of epic xp on a heroic tr is a BAD idea, we get it we wont do it, now are you happy with the rest of the system.... really... ok then we'll get to work

that above is the ONLY ANSWER WE NEED... now for once listen to the feedback you are getting, have your little inside dev chat, and poney up.

[esheep]

Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

Yet I still see bizarre level restrictions for PUGs ... the average player could use some help determining what level ranges they can take in their quests without incurring penalties -- to make matters worse, it changes for epic level content.

I'd been hoping when it was announced that the 'new' LFM system would've better accounted for such problems, but so far it seems like the 'old' system we had for the most part.


Complexity is bad, but where it cannot be avoided (such as epic level ranges vs content), it might be a good idea to provide some form of guide for the less informed player.

[redoubt]

Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.

While truly maxing the ED is max xp in all destinies.... getting to 4-2-1 twists is another version of maxing out. That is where I am. Yes, i'm back to adding more TR past lives right now. If my EDs go away... well, I've enjoyed the game. Best of luck to you.

[Tscheuss]

Absolutely incorrect. I would most certainly NOT plan to eTR into some unknown class for some unwanted unneeded heroic past life feat if my intention was to gain a wanted needed planned for epic PL feat. Again why hTR needs to be separate from eTR.

Your lack of desire to coordinate a heroic class with a desired ED in no way invalidates my assertion.

However, it does serve to make my point:


Those who grind through an "off" destiny are not forced to do so; they choose to do so.

[samthedagger]

I don't understand why the fuss, the solution is really easy, Leave heroic reincarnates as they are, and add in a new and improved Epic TR. If someone is level 28 with maxed destinys, and wants to TR the obtain a heroic TR. IF they WANT to get the epic TR past lives, then they go with the new Epic TR's. The Epic TR's could have the advantage of counting as both a Heroic and Epic TR. Simple enough in my mind.

*prepares for the onslaught of backlash*

I saw a dev post that TRs are complicated and that therefore this is not possible. What I have to wonder is: why? This would clearly make (almost) everyone happy. No new coding has to be done for existing TRs it seems. Why can't the new Epic TR system be coded separately? Glin, Pilloto, Vargouille, you guys are talking about complexity, but from a coding point of view this seems to be the simplest thing so far proposed. I'm not a game developer, but I know my way around computer coding. Why would anything in the proposed Epic TR system have to trigger anything in the old TR system that could possibly screw this up? Just leave the existing TR systems the way the are (which seems to have the bugs worked out of it at this point) and the only system subject to bugs would be the epic TR system. In this case, "buyer beware." Early users of the Epic TR system will simply have to accept that there might be bugs in it for quite a while (sorry, Turbine devs, but you guys don't have a great track record given the debacle with the last TR incident causing Epic Destiny XP being lost; you fixed it but it took many months to be resolved by which time many affected players had simply stopped playing out of frustration and well-deserved rage). But at least the existing systems which we know and love will continue to work as intended.

If you are overhauling the entire TR system for some reason, then my mind is boggled as to why you would even consider such a thing. At this point I am tempted to say I don't even want an Epic TR system if this is the kind of brouhaha it is going to stir up. But really, what could be simpler than preserving existing TR systems and making Epic TR completely separate code-wise?

[samthedagger]

sorry for double post

[Oberon_Shrader]

Hi.

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

.

Very similar to what I and many others suggested. Would actually like to see the flagged ED experience wiped, though. I think that's only fair for getting the feat and would require re-leveling it to get the same feat again (in the case that they stack like other PL feats).

Go with this method and I think most people will be happy to Epic TR!

[BOgre]

Your lack of desire to coordinate a heroic class with a desired ED in no way invalidates my assertion.

However, it does serve to make my point:

Those who grind through an "off" destiny are not forced to do so; they choose to do so.



Your assertion appears to be that others' play styles lack relevance. I have simply given an example based on personal experience which is mirrored by no small number of players. That's why your assertion is incorrect. The fact that we are being given a choice between two unwanted and unneeded game mechanics changes is no choice at all.

edit: oh, and let me say, there are several reasons to NOT co-ordinate a heroic class with the desired eTR epic destiny. Twisted abilities being the most obvious. Again, it seems wasteful and counter productive to have to reach lvl 28, max an unwanted destiny, AND spend all that time in an unwanted class, just to gain a locked in destiny from which to twist in one or two wanted abilities. It's Chewbacca.

[BOgre]

Very similar to what I and many others suggested. Would actually like to see the flagged ED experience wiped, though. I think that's only fair for getting the feat and would require re-leveling it to get the same feat again (in the case that they stack like other PL feats).

Go with this method and I think most people will be happy to Epic TR!

Well, yes and no. If Twists are preserved, yes. If eTR means starting at 20 (or possibly even 15 in order to simplify the iTR mechanic), then yes. If eTR means starting at 1, then a heroic PL feat should also be granted, then yes. If hTR has ZERO effect on EDXP/Twists, then yes. Failing any of those conditions, then no.

[samthedagger]

If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.If simplicity is a preferred means of accomplishing changes to the game, what could be simpler than preserving the existing TR system as it is and implementing the new Epic TR system as a completely separate code block? Heroic TR works as it always has, preserving all ED XP and taking you back to level 1. Folks who want to earn Completionist before hitting epics can keep doing that. Epic TR is clearly for the folks who prefer Epic play so let them play epics. They lose all ED XP and go back to level 20 (letting them level as whatever class they want) plus having a past life feat for one ED that they have maxed out (which can be whichever ED they have active at the time of Epic TRing). Those going for "epic completionist" (may not be a feat associated with it, but just a term for those who want to have all 11 ED past life feats) can do this up to 11 times. Should be enough to keep people busy for a while. And if folks don't want to lose ED XP, they don't have to Epic TR.

Simple.

Edit: Make leveling from 20 to 28 such that it is about the same time as it takes to level from 1 to 20 for a Heroic TR. Hence the idea of using an Epic TR to change classes from say rogue20 to cleric20 then three days later Heroic TRing to get the cleric past life feat isn't necessarily more advantageous than just Heroic TRing as a rogue20 to cleric in your new life.

[Zzevel]

This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).I'm pretty sure it's loud and clear nobody wants you to waste development time on Epic TR at all, we want you to fix the bugs and flesh out what you started.. things like Shaverath (there are three options on the planescaller where are the other two?), there are about 50 unfinished story lines... or crafting (there is a MILLION things to add in, heck combine all the crafting in the game into ONE good crafting tool), or even add in the missing prestige class we have waited 4 years for!.. why waste ANY time on something we do not want that CLEARLY alienates your player base? Like the enhancement pass NOBODY asked for it you simply want to make the change. My opinion: Fix bugs, release content, is a 5 year old game, quit trying to change the basics of the game, who asked for that? Seriously?. . . . . . . . . . . . If you must head strong into this what about a compromise? Heroic TR, keep it as it is...you go to level 1, keep epic xp exactly as it is!! In an Epic TR (ETR) you HAVE to hit level 28 to ETR, when you do you lock one MAXED ED, you now gain a past life in that ED. You become level 20 again with all ED levels/xp you previously had (bot ONLY one is locked, with you new LOCKED ED past life feet on the toon). (If you do not have all ED maxed), you can gain missing ED XP as you re-level to 28, when you get to 28 a SEDOND time, you lock a second maxed ED, now you have 2 ED past lives.. you ETR again you are level 20..... you can gain ED XP for destinies you don't have maxed... you get to 28 you lock a THIRD ED and gain a THIRD ED past life... when you lock all destinies you get an ED completionist feat like your heroic completionist feat...Keep TR and ETR separate and don't penalize people for what they earn, reward them fro getting from 1-28 and maxing a ED...

[Delacroix21]

I am saying that a player's choice to grind ED XP the hard way is not relevant to whether XP banking is a valid option. Your ad hominem response to my post tells me that you recognize this weakness in your argument, and you wish to divert attention away from it. ;)

To many of your posts in this thread come off as condescending personal attacks against other players, reported.

[Silverleafeon]

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

Thank you.

I'll be very blunt in a polite way.


You proposed an new system.

I countered with if take away our epic destiny each TR, then we have the right
to gain Fate points as normal.

I did the math on it.

You countered with hey you get a fate point out of control spiral.

I agree, I broke your system in 3 days.
I counter that you are cheating if you don't reward us fate points earned.

Its not over, just consider what you are doing for the future.

We both know the level cap goes to 30, we both know epic destinies are only half done.

How do you want to implement these changes.

The easiest smoothest transitions are to leave what is there in place.
It has the least impact of player rage.

But all this thinks of others, because that is what Fawn does.
Herself, she can survive any storm you can dream up...

[bbcjoke]

a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example

I'll have you know that I'm rooting for this solution. It's actually a big incentive to TR instead of grinding an ED that has no synergy with your build.

[Tscheuss]

That is acceptable.

Why'd it take 60 pages of nerd-rage to get to this?

This option would actually get people to level up to 28 before TRing.

Because they started this thread just before the weekend, then went about their own lives for a couple of days. :D

[Oberon_Shrader]

Well, yes and no. If Twists are preserved, yes. If eTR means starting at 20 (or possibly even 15 in order to simplify the iTR mechanic), then yes. If eTR means starting at 1, then a heroic PL feat should also be granted, then yes. If hTR has ZERO effect on EDXP/Twists, then yes. Failing any of those conditions, then no.

Well, considering that Piloto said that ED XP would be preserved I assumed that fate points would as well (being linked to levels of EDs and all). I also assumed (without thinking) that a Heroic PL feat would be granted as well. That just makes sense.

As for starting a TR at a level different than 1, I'm undecided. On the one hand, starting at 1 makes the most sense and keeps heroic levels relevant. I personally don't TR quickly and want to play those quests again. But I can also see that going back up to cap could become a huge grind for the ulta-dedicated. I never could really understand why there was a TR XP penalty to begin with: I agree with whoever said that starting over at level 1 should be enough of a penalty.

[Drwaz99]

One goal is to fairly reimburse time invested without promoting Epic vs. Heroic based on XP/minute.

The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.


Fate Points: An example dive into some details
We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)



This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).

Vargo, you and MajMal are the only two Devs/Reps here that actually talk and interact with us. While not coming over forced or contrived. Thanks! Unfortunately the rest of the Devs/Reps talk AT (not to!) us in words that when made into a paragraph are just group of words with no clear sense of direction (or real information).

[samthedagger]

Noticed in guild chat this morning.

"We seem to have lost a lot of members recently from the guild".
"Yes. A lot of them have told me and other guildies that they have been frustrated by all the bugs and lack of quality control. Now, with the new 'proposal' of loosing Epic XP, that was the last straw.'

I personally have not heard anyone specifically say they are leaving because of the proposed changes, but if the perception, even if 'not in stone' is there, it's causing harmful impact to the game and of course Turbine's bottom line.

Turbine, something official needs to be done, and done soon to stop the bleeding of your player base.Check out DDOracle for server traffic since this announcement. I don't think this announcement has had much of an impact on the current game environment. And quarterly, it looks like server traffic is actually up a notch over the last three months. I wouldn't cry doom and gloom over a few anecdotal incidents.

[Tscheuss]

Your assertion appears to be that others' play styles lack relevance. I have simply given an example based on personal experience which is mirrored by no small number of players. That's why your assertion is incorrect. The fact that we are being given a choice between two unwanted and unneeded game mechanics changes is no choice at all.

edit: oh, and let me say, there are several reasons to NOT co-ordinate a heroic class with the desired eTR epic destiny. Twisted abilities being the most obvious. Again, it seems wasteful and counter productive to have to reach lvl 28, max an unwanted destiny, AND spend all that time in an unwanted class, just to gain a locked in destiny from which to twist in one or two wanted abilities. It's Chewbacca.

As I clarified in another response, my assertion is that a player's decision to do something the hard way is not relevant to whether the XP bank is a viable solution.

[Tscheuss]

To many of your posts in this thread come off as condescending personal attacks against other players, reported.

This is how you perceive them? I will review my posts in context with this in mind. Thank you for pointing this out. :)


EDIT: Perhaps I am getting curt. Time for me to get some sleep. My apologies for any personal offense.

[Silverleafeon]

Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

I am out there, and about half of the serious players I know have at least one toon well on their way to max epic destinies.


Be careful with demographics in this case.

I have 41 toons at the moment.
One of them has max epic destinies.
So your charts might say 1 in 41, but I
see one player with a toon that has max epic destinies.

[Silverleafeon]

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

"God help the outcasts hungry from birth...

...I can get by...."


You have no idea how much rage any other proposal will cause.

[EllisDee37]

We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.This is very reassuring. The proposals in the OP and the first follow-up were so disheartening because they killed the ability to break up earning destinies with reincarnation.

I don't think I'm alone in only taking "off" destinies to 3 or 4 for fate points, which caps your max at 4/2/1. This means 10 off destinies to 1,080,000 each, which in my book is pretty heavily invested. (10.8 million xp = 460 rusted blades runs for me, every moment of which is painful.) I would never dream of taking an off destiny to tier 5 for fate points; that extra half million simply isn't worth it.




A few thoughts:

- Leveling through the heroic levels -- all of them, 1 to 20 -- is super fun.
- Grinding destinies is no fun, it's a "hold your nose and get through it so you can get back to having fun" kind of deal.
- If I could level off destinies while my preferred destiny is active, grinding destinies would immediately go from unfun chore to super fun playtime that I looked forward to, much like I look forward to heroic tring.
- Infinite fate points isn't a problem; they are naturally capped at 4/4/4, and the epic amount of grinding needed for 4/4/4 is on par with completionist. I'd never do completionist or 4/4/4, but my vote is to add the ability to get to 4/4/4. Let the hardcores have their fun.

[samthedagger]

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.After thinking about, I actually kind of like this idea. It preserves the idea that TRs can go back to level 1 to group with others at that level and doesn't completely hose those of us who spent so much time earning EDs which we were promised we would be able to keep upon TRing.

The only issue I see is the same as the current issue with TRing. Most servers have a dedicated TR channel. They are an elitist crowd. They have a 2 level range on what they run. They only run elite. They ditch players who don't hold their weight and don't take time to explain things to new players. Now let me temper this by saying this does not include everyone who TRs so I am not speaking categorically. But the problem as it currently exists is that there are too many penalties for grouping with someone new to the game for an experienced multi-life player to even want to consider it. Maybe it is time to take a second look at things like death penalties (maybe just remove the +10% for 0 deaths; it's not like we can't get loads of XP already). Maybe reconsider max levels and how bravery bonuses are calculated (as much as I love bravery bonuses, I think it has been a detriment to the PUG scene). Find some ways to encourage TRs to group with new players and that will really strengthen the game in ways adding new content cannot.

[Aerinsma]

Are you planning on raising the level of epic destinies to level 10 now or later?

Be careful you don't paint yourself into another corner.
But letting a few folks have an immediate advantage then other who
wait miss out.

I would advise you do it in conjunction with this, but others might disagree.


If you are not planning on raising the level to 10, then just open a toon like
mine with all epic destinies done, and look -- see its a ghost town there.
Plenty of room for double points spent.

Also, caster level = epic destiny level = +5
So level cap goes to 30 within two years, then you cannot level caster level at 25?

So by my reckoning, it has to increase to 10 to max the probably 30 character levels
we will see soon.

But if you do it now at the same time, then suddenly no one has maxed epic
destinies, and although some might max out three or so before ETRing, most
will not max out everything for obvious reasons.

Therefore, in these cases, the XP Bank situations trigger as being important,
particularly since you rightly so don't want to carry over fate points.

This. Thank you for stating what I wanted to more clearly than I could.

[mikarddo]

The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).


I very much agree, Keeping it simple is a good plan. Which is why you should not bundle Heroic TR and Epic TR at all.

- Heroic TR: Exactly the way it is now.
- Epic TR: Give an epic past life but _not_ a heroic past life. Reset epic xp so you go back to level 20 and reset the ED xp in the destiny being bound but not in any other ED. Do not allow any changing of heroic classes (if you want to change classes you need to heroic TR or LR+x).

That way people can play 1-20 and Heroic TR if they want (gaining heroic past lives) _or_ play 20-28 and Epic TR (gaining epic past lives) _or_ play 1-28 and Epic TR followed immediately by a Heroic TR (gaining both heroic and epic past lives).

Nice, clean and simple. Nothing hard to code, no loop holes and maximum flexibility letting the players use the content they want in the order they want making everyone happy. Oh, and not a single issue with grandfathering in any past accomplicements.

I consider this a tripple win and really cannot figure out why you want to complicate matters when you know that more complex isnt a good idea.

Edit: Iconic TR can be figured out once the basic concerns of heroic and epic TR are covered.

[Silverleafeon]

This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).

Hey, I want the time that would be spent on epic disadvantage and the resulting
game breaking broken addtions to appease the public instead spent on reviewing
the outdate past life feats.


I am serious, in order to appease the kind of rage you are generating you will have
to implement stuff that will result in way over powered characters which will result
in the game becoming messed up and nerfs needed which will result in more
rage as the rage spirals out of control....

[Silverleafeon]

I very much agree, Keeping it simple is a good plan. Which is why you should not bundle Heroic TR and Epic TR at all.

- Heroic TR: Exactly the way it is now.
- Epic TR: Give an epic past life but _not_ a heroic past life. Reset epic xp so you go back to level 20 and reset the ED xp in the destiny being bound but not in any other ED. Do not allow any changing of heroic classes (if you want to change classes you need to heroic TR or LR+x).

That way people can play 1-20 and Heroic TR if they want (gaining heroic past lives) _or_ play 20-28 and Epic TR (gaining epic past lives) _or_ play 1-28 and Epic TR followed immediately by a Heroic TR (gaining both heroic and epic past lives).

Nice, clean and simple. Nothing hard to code, no loop holes and maximum flexibility letting the players use the content they want in the order they want making everyone happy. Oh, and not a single issue with grandfathering in any past accomplicements.

I consider this a tripple win and really cannot figure out why you want to complicate matters when you know that more complex isnt a good idea.

You are leaving out iconic TRing.

[Thrudh]

Why not just have us lose all exp in JUST the ED we have primary at moment of epic TR... and then increase the xp needed to cap that destiny to 3 million? Leave all other EDs alone. Even okay to lose the 5 ranks of fate points from that ONE ED as well.

That will still give people plenty of TRing to do, since they will have to relevel to 28 each time...

You don't need to make us redo ED grinding... Just going from 1-28 is a lot of work (Don't worry about the guys who will do all 11 in 3 weeks - you can't possibly keep up with them).

[Silverleafeon]

We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything.

Keep trying on the hats, and keep talking to us early.

Pardon our pitchforks and torches and let them be sign of caring deeply about this grand game.

[mikarddo]

You are leaving out iconic TRing.

Thats on purpose. Fix the two most immediate concerns first - than add in Iconics once the basics are clear.

[Candela90]

Well Im glad devs are listening.
As you said "a lot of players play once or twice a week".
So consider that TR (heroic) for those ppl will be like 3 months.
1 ETR - half year.
This is seriously still a big grindfest.
I still am for option for leaving heroic and epic TR as differents, heroic 1-20, epic 20-28 with ED loose.

I am really up for goals in game - but 11x half year is not really that great. Thats 5 years and 6 months. I mean... Thats a lot of time. Even if I started doing those TRs I would be sick of game by that time if I was TRing over and over again.

I am up for anything that lets me pass first 20 lvls considering that I did those like 6-7 times already and want no more.

[Edwinge]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.


I've not read the whole thread so this may have been suggested, but here's an idea for another option:

All epic destinies are preserved when TR'ing except the active one. So, for example, I level to 28 and max out legendary dreadnaught, fatesinger, and shadowdancer and get level 4 in draconic incarnation. I epic TR with shadowdancer active. On my next life I gain the shadowdancer past life, but shadowdancer's xp is reset to zero. Legendary dreadnaught and fatesinger are still maxed and draconic incarnation is still at level 4. Basically, I'd only need to re-level the destiny I got the past life for. There'd be no need for compensation or anything like that. You'd be trading the xp from one destiny (and any fate points earned from it's levels) for a past life feat. One can level it up again on the following life and never need to again (assuming you don't TR with it active again).

[hunzi2010]

ok, as a player from Australia, I find this a pain in the preverbial.
I play an American game server when most of you are asleep and it takes me like 3 month to level a toon to 20 without the help of farming xp and boosting with pots..
I like to play the game with people, and I hate soloing, as the reason I joined a MMORPG is also for the interaction.
Biggest problem I see here is you have people with too much time on their hands (no job, but please dont take offense to that...please....no harm intended to anyonew, as global economy is tuff) and they play and play and play and then boast how they solo epic elites.
ofcourse the developerds are going to get annoyed, as your not supposed to be able to produce 25k damage....
so simple fix I think for alot of the problems is you have to have 2 players minimum, not solo and a hire. then you wont get people advancing as quick, as you need to have a group.
and just to also throw out there, if the developers can fix all these problems about people dominating and having to make it hards for people, please can you fix my bug everytime I get off my ship......pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!! :)
thanks :)

[EllisDee37]

so simple fix I think for alot of the problems is you have to have 2 players minimum, not solo and a hire. then you wont get people advancing as quick, as you need to have a group.Ugh, I would hate this.

[cru121]

multiple TR variants not feasible

If multiple TR variants give you headache, let's stick to a single TR:
- If you TR at 20-27, you don't get epic PL.
- If you TR at 28, you can bond a maxed destiny and get an epic PL.

On each TR:
-heroic exp - lost
-epic exp - lost
-epic ED exp - halved
--any ED that you maxed is flagged as maxed, and can never be (via multiple TRs) reduced below level 3
--any ED that you bonded remains maxed thru all TR
--all unlocked ED remain unlocked
--fate points are recalculated

+Award one extra fate point for each bonded ED
+Flatten XP curve

[Moltier]

My first post since the new forum. :P

So instead of the original idea (all but 1 destiny lost), or the xp bank system, just give the players their fate points based on the highest destiny levels in any of their lifes. So like first life ends up with maxed Shadowdancer and Grandmaster. 2nd life ends up with Fatesinger and Draconic. (S)he couldnt use them in the 3rd life (or just 1), but the fate points would be based on those. If one of these destines are lower level, like 3, then you can advance it later, but there would be no pressure to do everything in a single life.

Also let us choose any of the destinies to lvl, or at least the already unlocked destinies in next lifes.

Quite simple on paper (maybe not easy to program, dunno), and you wouldnt have to make overpowered past life feats to make it worth it.
You would have what you want, more grind, yet, we could get back our twist quite fast, without too much effort.
Those who already have everything maxed could get most of the usefull twists by the time they reach lvl25 or lvl28.

So in short:
1. Let us keep fate points based on previous destiny levels.
2. Let us choose already unlocked destinies in new lifes.

[SirValentine]

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content.


UGH. Please re-think this. This should NOT be a goal.

Do not give away heroic PLs to people who just sit at cap and play end-game stuff. Weren't you all just making the point about how TRing is about giving up your power? Getting a Heroic class-based past life is not too hard, but you should get a Heroic past life by playing Heroic levels. Plus, don't you want a vibrant community of players through all levels to help fill up LFMs and mentor new players?



Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.


RIGHT NOW it is NOT wasteful, because any epic destiny XP you earn is preserved. I, and many other people I know, like to alternate between TRing and playing at Epic levels.

[Deadlock]

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

Actually, it would be only "wasteful" if you wipe ED XP when you Heroic TR.

The situation at the moment is that you can get a taste of Epic content and have some fun doing it, while experimenting with Epic Destinies.

Players will spend as much time doing Epic content as they feel like on that build, they may or may not reach level 28 as the new cap, when they decide that their build really isn't suitable for Epic content - and in particular their build could be wholly unsuitable for Epic Elite. So they will want to TR it. This is where you need to give people a choice:
(1) Heroic TR and retain your ED XP for your next foray into Epics, picking up a Heroic Past Life Feat in the process.
(2) Continue on to level cap and Epic TR to gain a Heroic or Iconic Past Life Feat plus an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat, but accepting whatever the final ED XP cost will be for the Epic TR option.

The current situation has no waste. It's only your proposal on Heroic TRing that introduces it.

[kwyjibo_lol]

I would really hate to not start at level one when heroic tr'ing. I really love playing low level content and almost all heroic quests. Their graphics may be aging, but the quest are far more superior in design and complexity than any of the epic only content.

[kwyjibo_lol]

Actually, it would be only "wasteful" if you wipe ED XP when you Heroic TR.

The situation at the moment is that you can get a taste of Epic content and have some fun doing it, while experimenting with Epic Destinies.

Players will spend as much time doing Epic content as they feel like on that build, they may or may not reach level 28 as the new cap, when they decide that their build really isn't suitable for Epic content - and in particular their build could be wholly unsuitable for Epic Elite. So they will want to TR it. This is where you need to give people a choice:
(1) Heroic TR and retain your ED XP for your next foray into Epics, picking up a Heroic Past Life Feat in the process.
(2) Continue on to level cap and Epic TR to gain a Heroic or Iconic Past Life Feat plus an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat, but accepting whatever the cost will be for the Epic TR option.

The current situation there is no waste. It's only your proposal on Heroic TRing that introduces it.

This! <3

[Deadlock]

Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.


Heroic TR = gain a Heroic Past Life Feat, make a step forward towards Completionist.
Epic TR = gain Heroic or Iconic Past Life Feat plus an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat, make a step forward to both Completionist and Epic Completionist.

A new character who Heroic TRs 2 times and then Epic TRs 11 times will have Completionist and Epic Completionist after 13 lives.
Compared to a character who only Heroic TR's 13 times and gains Completionist.

Does it need to be any simpler than this?

If your real goal is to try and somehow shoehorn people into Epic and out of Heroic then I could understand why you would create such a negative association with Heroic TRing, but I believe it's better to let the players decide for themselves which TR option they will choose. Gaining a 38 point build, the Epic Destiny Past Lives and the new auto-granted Epic Completionist Feat should be incentive enough for those that are interested.

[Deadlock]

Fate Points: An example dive into some details
We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

Recalculating Fate Points each life based on your total ED Levels and any other bonusses isn't a deal breaker for me.

A fairly simple solution that still allows us to progress our total number of Fate Points would be:
1. Add the 6th level to an Epic Destiny for it being "capped", award an extra 4 Action Points to that tree for capping it. This makes a capped Epic Destiny worth 2 Fate points.
2. Add 1 Fate Point for each Epic Destiny Past Life - again, easy to calculate.
3. Retain store purchased Fate Points from Tomes of Fate through TRing.
4. Add 2 Fate Points and a 4th Twist Slot at Epic Completionist, maybe allow Twists to go to Tier 5 instead of the current max at Tier 4.

This gives us 22 Fate Points from capping all ED's plus 11 from ED Past Lifes, plus 2 from Epic Completionist plus 2 from Tomes for a total of 37 Fate Points, which would allow us something like a 5/3/2/1 split on our twists.

And you've just made a great argument for retaining ED XP with Heroic TRing in the part I've highlighted above.

[Lauf]

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.


attaining heroic past lives should not be possible while playing epic content. exercise some common sense please.



Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic.

your "goals" make it seem that you are awfully concerned about getting the TR crowd to play epic content and remain at cap. let me help you out here as someone who has a toon with over 20 lives and TRs whenever possible: I do not remain at cap because I get bored running the same 5 quests. pretty soon staying at cap is reduced to waiting 3 days for the raid timer to expire. I prefer running a multitude of quests, and no amount of rewards would make staying at cap a more enjoyable experience. what it may do is provide me with a good enough reason to stay at cap, against my wishes (much like farming 20 shrouds for an essence of cleansing). Staying at cap with not much to do is NOT my idea of fun, and I would urge you not to create artificial incentives for doing so. if you do want to make staying at cap a viable option - CREATE MORE CONTENT. it may surprise you, but if it would be *fun* to stay at cap, more people would do so.
stop increasing the level ranges, start creating more content for the levels you have. that way you'll keep players interested, and you won't have to re-invent the classes and progression every year.
and as an added benefit, new / casual players won't have to worry about getting obnoxious amounts of xp just to be able to experience what the game has to offer. they would have more quests available to them at the levels they are at.
oh and last but not least, this would also mean that people who do TR often (i.e. your hard core) would have more content at their disposal while leveling. in other words, it'll help you preserve your client base. create more content for the levels you already have.




We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.

ok now I am assuming Epic Destiny reincarnation would put you back at level 1. if so then I'm with you. going from level 1 to 25 (or 28) is more of an effort than going from 1 to 20.
If however the Epic Destiny reincarnation would put you back at level 20, as some, including Glin in an earlier post, have suggested, then I have to say this makes very little sense, as getting from 1-20 is much more of an effort than leveling 20-25.




We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

I have read through your description of the different potential problems you perceive, and I'll be honest, it seems you're fumbling all over yourself making it more complicated than it needs to be.
Keep it simple.
today there's a maximum possible number of fate points. that should give you a clear hint.
HAVE a maximum possible number of fate points. simple enough right?
if there will be a maximum number of allowed fate points, you'll never have a problem of


infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run.

so that's solved. next.



That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more

wow there cowboy, hold your horses.
today players get a fate point for every 3 epic levels they get. lets call it a "milestone". now, here's a bit of common sense thrown your way:
if player has reached a milestone, and the player's number of fate points is smaller then the maximum allowed, add a fate point.

doesn't get much simpler than that.

fate points would be kept through TRing, and so every player would be able to achieve his maximum allowed number of fate points within a reasonable time invested, regardless if he constantly epic TRs the same ED, or if he maximizes all the EDs without TR. how to get the fate points would be up to the player.
it's not that complicated....

[Deadlock]

Good advice, which is why earlier in this thread I started a post saying "If I was designing this..."

Its nice that you have worked your way up to have 20 developers reporting to you. When I was but a lad of 30, I had 155 world class developers (spread across 2 US states and Japan) taking design guidance from me. I'll be happy to compare notes, when you catch up. By the way, that was over 20 years ago. You probably need to start running faster.

Do you play DDO at work? I admit, I really don't know what an "Uber completionist" is, but it sounds really time consuming.

For the sake of accuracy, I should note that they really weren't goals for me, as they were achieved without prior planning. They did, however, seem to be reasonable starter goals for you. Once you achieve them, by all means let me know, and I'll try to find something a bit more challenging. Baby steps.

Very impressive. Will give you something to look back on in your dottage.

I definitely missed your earlier post then, and I've been too distracted by this ***-for-tat to go back and re-read the thread to find it. I will gladly retract any accusations that you've brought nothing to the table apart from negative criticism without any positive suggestions.

I do indeed regularly play at work, but then I have a very understanding boss as the owner of the company. I wouldn't say that the Triple Completionist thing is particularly time consuming, I'm just very fortunate that gaming fits in great with my lifestyle.

And thanks for the offer to set me some challenging goals, but I wouldn't want us to just end up bickering further on whether I consider those to be a challenge or not and it might be demoralising if it turns out that I've exceeded them already.

[Dazhforum]

It's my official position. If there is something my toons can or should do that wipes out capping all of the EDs on two toons, I will leave DDO.

~ Dazz

[Flavilandile]

The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

Great Damage Control post, but it doesn't address our concerns at all. And with the track records Turbine has given us recently, nobody believes anything said by any representative.


Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

We are not only talking of the players that already have maxed out their EDs, but also of all the players that have 2 or 3 maxed out EDs and are still wadding through unwanted EDs to reach things whey would like to have as a twist. There's also those that are levelling a few ED, then TRing their character, and going through a few more EDs because they are more palatable with another class.
There's lot of cases where people invest lots of time in EDs while not capping them.


Hi.
Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
• Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
• Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
• Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
• Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
• And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.


You still have the problem backward. You want to add Epic TR, great, don't touch Heroic TR at all. Heroic TR should stay as it is.



Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.


This option is probably the good one if, when you do an Heroic TR all your Destinies XPs and Levels are kept ( disabled until you reach 20 ).



Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

Right now it is wasteful to play epic contents once you have capped your character... There is almost nothing interesting that makes you wish to return there ( except for Tor and a few other quests )
People TR because there is nothing to do at End-Game. ( and it's going to be worse with the expansion )

The old Epics have a grandfathered system with obsolete items
The Eveningstar/Thread quests are taking a long time to reach, the Raid is a PITA for loot that is so so with a ******** drop rate, the quests in themselves are not that bad, but again the items are so so... Random loot is usually better.
The Gianthold quests are nice ( even if we have known them for years ), the loot in some case is not that bad, but there's no real incentive to go back there except for the Dragonscales in Tor, and once you have made your armors there's not much to do.



Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.

Then use the Heroic TR as it is as a starting point and the minimum to keep for Epic TR and build Epic TR from that.



This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer.

Well you could develop more quests, more content, and eventually finish all the things that have been started and then left to rot instead of adding yet another thing that will probably left unfinished. For example the Planescaller dialog in the Tower of the Twelve hints that there were several other planes to visit planned when Amrath was released... where are they ?
And there's doors everywhere in Stormreach that cannot be opened. D&D is about adventures behind every door, make it so, even if the adventure is a Devil Assault Redux.

[Citzen_Gkar]

When you TR, you may choose to plan your class and ED so they work well together; therefore, this aspect of your argument lacks relevance.

You have never played EDs have you? By design you are forced to spend more time in EDs that aren't useful than EDs that are useful. That will get even worse once the level cap increases to 28.

[CorinBrightbane]

There will be 4 Iconic options with available PL's that stack X3. These also start at level 15. TR runs with these will get you up to 12 Iconic PL's and all (currently) 11 ED PL's without re-running any of the heroic classes. :D

Ahhhhh yes. Somehow in reading all of this thread that slipped my mind. Thanks for the reminder!

[Targal]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

Why can't you say selective options at ED TR? You can have both, not one.
Let me show you how I think it is.

• You can select which EDs you'll burn, or deposit your ED XP to XP bank. (to give you xp at heroic.)
• By this way, you have other choice that any ED is NOT selected to burn/deposit if you don't want reset ED XP. This results you won't get any beneficial heroic bonus XP by ED XP reset.
• But your claimed ED WILL BE RESET to give you Epic Past Life, and to be bonded. Only you can keep XP of which EDs you want to make remain, except for one ED for Epic Past Life and bonding.

This way would be a compromise suggestion.

I think you had to reset ED when TR first when ED shown, then ppl won't get be mad like this, hehe. but developers got a mistake already.

[Silverleafeon]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).


The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.


It does not matter what the numbers are, it does not matter at all.

We will find a way to abuse this system so badly that you regret implementing it someday.

That is a promise.

[Silverleafeon]

Fate Points: An example dive into some details
That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.Darn tooting, you reset our Epic Destinies to zero xp, and the system falls apart. We start looking for abuse, and you will not be able to plug all the leaks.


I still say,

For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.
For every 3 epic destiny levels earned, we must be rewarded with 1 fate point.


That is not up for negotiation.
Anything else is cheating on the part of the Devs.
As you pointed out that creates a fate point spiral of unlimited fate points.
Yeah man, you take candy from us and we raise torches and pitchforks to the sky.

Villagers riot but watch your language.

[Silverleafeon]

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.Thank you for considering this option.

Sooner or later, you will see a variation of this is the ONLY correct choice.

Please note Fawngate is voting for a choice that is slightly less uber for her,
but more benefical to the overall populations.

[Silverleafeon]

Actually "several" may be understating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs.
Must have been a typo, not to worry I fixed it for you.

[Silverleafeon]

Greatly encourages general rioting by the villagers on this thread till the devs finally realize how wrong removing epic destiny xp is.
{Please watch your language but let them have it.}

[Silverleafeon]

Yeah, we're aware of this. Hopefully it'll be fixed soon. I restaged all of the challenge rules this past week on the new DDO.com, but it takes a bit of dev work to hook 'em up in-game. No need to bug report it.Oh, look something for you folks to work on besideses candy stealing.

[Silverleafeon]

The main reason we don't have additional inventory space and bank upgrades is due to tech limitations. However, we are actively looking for ways we can improve storage options.Here is something we ask for and ask for and ask for and ask for and ask for and ask for.

But you want to steal our candy instead???


I really don't want to grind out Fatesinger Epic Destiny again.

But there is tons of things Fawngate can do if she determines to do so.

You cannot stop her, she is like the wind.

[Silverleafeon]

Shall I continue linking other things for you to work on besiding coding a system to remove our epic destiny xp?

[Cetus]

I need to see the rewarding side of this system to make a more informed judgment.

[Silverleafeon]

There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

You are going to hurt these players most of all, if you reset epic destiny xp.

[Silverleafeon]

Go fix challenge xp, how long has that been borked?

[Dandonk]

Go fix challenge xp, how long has that been borked?

Please, no. If past fixes are anything to go by, the xp will halved yet again. Let's quit while we're behind.

[Tscheuss]

You have never played EDs have you? By design you are forced to spend more time in EDs that aren't useful than EDs that are useful. That will get even worse once the level cap increases to 28.

Yes, I have ground ED XP. As a rogue, even. MotU came out during my first life, and I was ignorant of TR at the time. When I later learned about TR'ing, I laughed at my own foolishness for grinding "off" destinies. Now here, as with PnP, I determine where I start by where I wish to end. ;)

[Silverleafeon]

Epic TRing ~ nice idea.
Epic Past Lives ~ nice idea.
Reviewing current past lives ~ nice idea.

Increasing level cap to 30 ~ nice idea.
Increasing epic destiny cap to 10 possible as the next X pack ~ nice idea.

Removing Epic Destiny xp with Epic Advantage ~ strike out.

Overall batting average here: 850
Not bad, go get some Gatorade.

[Silverleafeon]

please, no. If past fixes are anything to go by, the xp will halved yet again. Let's quit while we're behind.

lol

[Silverleafeon]

I vaguely remember the Devs saying they wanted to give bards some love,
but it seems so long ago, it must have been a dream...

[Tscheuss]

I vaguely remember the Devs saying they wanted to give bards some love,
but it seems so long ago, it must have been a dream...

Silver, have you even slept, yet?

[Silverleafeon]

LOL, nods and yawns.
Maybe Ill go back to bed.


Mal, thanks so much for taking the time to post lately. Much appreciated.

My biggest concern is the enhancement pass. I'm a long-time, semi-casual player. I've played since launch so I've seen every change/nerf/revamp/overhaul this game has done from the early Evasion in heavy armor change to this. I recently came back to the game after a hiatus and I'm having a blast again.

That said, I'm not sure I can suffer through another major system overhaul that forces me to respec all my characters again. I still have a ton of builds to try and content to play but that will make me lose interest very quickly.

For the enhancement pass, I would like to see:

1. Improve the UI. The Epic tree is pretty. Use that as a template.
2. Consolidate or remove obsolete enhancements: all the skill mods, wand DC, etc.
3. Add more prestige classes. Seems to be that players have been asking for more prestige class options, not being forced into specific trees (which the first preview did).

In addition, I'm concerned about the new spellcasting skills. There was talk of changes to the Toughness feat and enhancements because they are considered essential by many players. But putting in skills that affect spellcasting is the same. It will be a skill point tax because no one will build a caster without maxing those skills.

Remove or improve skills that don't get used, don't suddenly make them required and force characters to respec to maintain the same level of ability.

Thanks again for listening!

You have this on the table already.
Please give it the time and attention it deserves.

I hope you don't find the ice too thin...

[Gowenna_Stardust]

It does not matter what the numbers are, it does not matter at all.

We will find a way to abuse this system so badly that you regret implementing it someday.

That is a promise.

The uber abuser .. erm... completionist has spoken :D

[Thrudh]

Devs, the goal is to make people want to epic TR right? Decent PLs will do this (and a decent Epic completionist PL) Why do you have to take ED xp away at all?

Leave heroic TR untouched. Add epic TR where you have to get to 28 (20-28 requires xp that will probably be equivalent to maxing out 3 EDs anyway), and that's it... Why remove ED exp at all? 1-28 eleven times is a pretty huge hurdle all by itself. (okay 15-28, but still... 1-15 is pretty fast)

I'll never epic TR 11 times... Neither will 98% of the players... You'll keep the 0.5% busy for 2 months, 1.5% busy for a year, and the rest of us will get 0-2 Epic TR PLs on our characters just like we do now with heroic TRs.

You want people buying xp pots right and you want to give people something to do at end-game, right? You don't have to take away ED exp to achieve these goals... (maybe you could ADD an ED every 6 months)

Like you said, the vast majority of us haven't maxed out EDs... The grind is already plenty for the vast majority of us. Don't take away our slowly earned ED xp to try and give the top 2% a huge grind...

(1) You don't need to
(2) It's probably going to backfire, and they may actually leave this time. The ED grind sucks... Adding a new 1-28 (or 15-28) TR process is a fun grind... We get to level again, mostly in our favorite ED... Grinding out EDs is NOT fun, especially when you don't get to keep them.

[Teh_Troll]

(2) It's probably going to backfire, and they may actually leave this time. The ED grind sucks... Adding a new 1-28 (or 15-28) TR process is a fun grind... We get to level again, mostly in our favorite ED... Grinding out EDs is NOT fun, especially when you don't get to keep them.

Thrudh is shouting d000000mmmm!!

Think about it devs, do not touch our ED XP at all.

[Atremus]

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at..

This is the correct option Piloto.

Ditch the banking system.

Figure out the details of this option and get back to us so the players can offer our prospective opinions.

With a path laid out, would you share some thoughts on these epic past life feats?

And every time we Epic TR how about an extra 5 HP?

[Grubbby]

The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

~Erik
@producerglin

I'd be really surprised if several isn't an understatement on how many are heavily invested in destinies. Of the players I run with commonly, all are heavily invested, none are capped in all destinies. There is a lot of value in reaching the twist level that you want and almost no value in going beyond that. I personally have no toons who have capped all destinies, but I have 6 toons that have run out to 4/1/1 twists and 2 who have 4/2/1 twists. So all are around 80% of the way to capped. Since I run 8 or 9 toons getting the next toons twists set up is more important than capping the rest of the destinies beyond those needed for twists.

Most people I know follow this pattern. Getting twists set up is a high priority, capping all dstinies is a very low priority.

[Atremus]

Getting twists set up is a high priority, capping all dstinies is a very low priority.

This does sum up a majority of the people I run with as well. Hopefully Turbine will address the XP required to ease the impact on people that play a lot of Alts to cap and max them out (regarding Twists).

[DDOForumAccount]

Your lack of desire to coordinate a heroic class with a desired ED in no way invalidates my assertion.

However, it does serve to make my point:


Those who grind through an "off" destiny are not forced to do so; they choose to do so.

Yes, of course. Except when the starting destiny is the "off" destiny. Melee bards. Artificers. Arcanes wanting Shiradi due to the horrible way saves work in epics. Melee divines. Tucaws/juggernauts/other weird multiclasses. Archers with less than 6 ranger levels. Caster Druids. Many others I'm sure.

A sorcerer in the preferred ED requires a ranger-life or 3 "off" destinies to enter the desired ED, so you are way off base in saying the player chooses to grind the wrong destinies. But, I guess in your world everybody is a healer, a rogue or a fighter.

[DDOForumAccount]

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.


Remove ED exp from all but bonded ED: big issue for the most active players, not reasonable.
Remove ED exp only from the bonded ED (player suggestion): bad from flavour view, huge punishment for casual players who only have that 1 ed, not reasonable.
Do not remove ED exp: only option left, has a side effect of leaving everybody happy.


To me the option of TR not removing ED exp seems like the only possible pick, lets go from there. Heroic TR works the same as Epic TR, no complications there, KISS.

To get people on board doing Epic TR under this system is simple, just offer a bonus and people will do it. For specifics, I feel like the bound ED should have the option of remaining active while collecting exp for different destinies. (Honestly, this could(should?) be introduced to all capped destinies). Being in the correct ED and doing an epic elite version of a quest in 30 minutes is still way less exp than being in a farming ED and doing an epic hard in 10 minutes.

[cforce]

We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.


I suspect 80% of the vitriol here is due to fate points being lost, not ED XP being lost per se. I never actually want to *run* my Pale Master in Shadowdancer, and the fact that I had to claim it in the first place is mildly annoying. Put differently: a change that will incent me to level up Shadowdancer a *second* time is a TR-killer.

What I'd really like to see, which I think balances between the stated goals and complexity of solution, is this:

- Credit for ED levels towards fate points is "remembered". Fate points, and partial credit from ED levels, survive the TR. A particular ED level can't be counted towards fate points a second time after a TR.
- Map unlocks of particular ED's are remembered, so that I could "pick up where I left off" making my way across the map without having to spend time in a ED I don't care about.

This seems like it fits your "simple system" criteria. Someone who had already capped all EDs would have to relevel the EDs they *actually want to use* only.

To be fair, I don't TR frequently. I've done so once, and *might* do so on my main in the future. However, having to re-level the destinies that "don't make sense" for my character, even once, would probably be a deal killer. It was interesting to try... once.

[psteen1]

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.


I would like to vote for option 2.

I also like the option of removing destiny XP from the destiny that you have gotten the past life from. The past life feat is the reward for losing that XP. And a single destiny is not a big deal to relevel up and will actually make the next life more interesting. Character progression is a big draw for me; having all ED's maxed out with nowhere to go next is not a big draw for me.

[susiedupfer]

I do not want to lose ANYTHING on epic TR. The problem is that there is too little epic xp available to make epic xp loss a viable option. I hate, despise, and abhor grinding out one quest for every last xp. At least when leveling from 1-20, you grind lots of quests. Something new at each level. Give us more epic xp,(content) and you will see much less vitriol.

[Varinox]

Heroic TR
- retain current system
- available at level 20+
- all character xp will be lost (back to level 1)
- no loss of Epic Destiny xp
- +2 build point (up to 36pt)
- gain passive past life feat

Epic TR
- same system as Heroic TR system but available only at level cap (28)
- all character xp will be lost (back to level 1)
- no loss of Epic Destiny xp
- +2 build point (up to 38pt)
- gain passive past life feat (same one as Heroic TR)
- purchaseable past life feat is now auto-granted at level 3 (cannot/need not be purchased anymore)

Epic Destiny Bonding
- no loss of character xp (a level 28 remains 28)
- available for any capped Epic Destiny (1.98m xp)
- choose a capped Epic Destiny to bond
- all xp in that Epic Destiny is lost (back to level 0 in that bonded destiny)
- that Epic Destiny is now "bonded"
- back to level 0 in that Epic Destiny
- leveling thru a "bonded" ED requires more xp every rank (eg. 1st rank at 48K instead of 32k)
- +2 points to spend in bonded ED (2 pts available at level 0)
- Fate points not lost from loss of ED levels but regaining levels in bonded ED will also not give more Fate points

Epic Destiny Completionist
- bonding all available EDs grant passive ED completionist feat (granted at level 20)

I think this is one of the best ideas I have heard however I would make one change to the Epic TR proposed above:

Instead of reverting the character to Level 1, revert the character to level 1 with enough XP for level 15, effectively making that character an equivalent to an Iconic and also allowing for the selection of one of the Iconic classes. (Dev's should already have the code in place to start a character at level 15 after all)

This would mean that the Epic TR and the Iconic TR were one and the same, while also increasing the incentives for players to choose to use the Epic TR instead of the Heroic TR.

Heroic TR could TR into any of the Normal Classes and start at Level 1.
Epic TR could TR into any of the Normal classes or into any of the Iconic classes and start at Level 15.

[Cauthey_No_CCInfo]

Hi.

Hi.



• And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

If you are planning on encroaching on players' current investments, what ever function that is added needs to have buy-in from the players. The costing of lost investments needs to match the potential benefits.

Further, any new functions that are added need to be done in an OPTIONAL fashion where you are not punishing players that are currently enjoying existing functionality (like "Heroic" TRs that are happening today). Trespassing on players' current investment by modifying existing functionality (like "Heroic" TRs) is unacceptable. If you and your team see these in any other light, you need to reconsider your goals.

Is there some other unstated goal that Turbine is holding to remove players' investments? If so, please explain those goals with the community.

[Monkey_Archer]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.


As somebody who would like to start at level 1 and hates ED grinding, I would definitely prefer option 2. I definitely prefer to have fun leveling, then playing EE endgame in my preferred destiny. However, I do understand that many people are in the opposite position and hate heroic content and EE, but love grinding EH quests for ED xp.

So why not allow both?

For each maxed out epic destiny, give us 3 options:

Bond this destiny. Any number of destinies can be bonded, retaining all their xp and providing no benefit.
Bank this destiny. Any number of destinies can be banked, giving you a pool of xp that can be spent to level at any point during the TR (conversion rates for epic vs heroic xp may apply of course)
Flag this destiny. Only one destiny may be flagged. You lose all xp in this destiny, but will gain an epic destiny past life bonus.


I understand it may be slightly more difficult to implement, but IMO it would be worth it to please all sorts of players.

On fate points: I think fate points should be calculated based on your current destiny levels. If you reset XP in a destiny you will lose 1-2 fate points, but will regain those fate points when you re-level that destiny. Further fate point progression could be build into the past life system. For example, the fatesinger past life could be 1 additional fate point.

[Ferial_Flumph]

Grinding xp is not fun, and it gets even less fun when you arent getting anything to show for it.

This is what made opening up distant destines and gathering fate points torture- it involved lots of time leveling destines that were not useful, so that your character wasn’t really getting anything out of it.

Lets be careful not to build anything this painful into the new system.

This means that if we are going to level from 20-28 we need to be gaining something interesting while we do it. Epic levels are not interesting, epic destines are. In order to make the epic TR process engaging we need to be leveling destines and gaining powers while we do it, ant this means we will need to give something up to start the process.

That doesn’t mean we should give up all destiny xp. But just 1 destiny would only get us to level 23-24 in the current system. Perhaps resetting an entire sphere (2-3 destines at the moment) with a past life for each destiny and also a past life for all destines in the sphere (and for completionist). Perhaps something else. Whatever it is plan it with the xp required for an epic tr as a guide.

[fourrumtest]

don't wipe my epic xp on a heroic tr.

don't wipe my heroic xp on an epic tr.

if i ever epic tr wipe the xp from the one destiny i bond.

maybe make endgame fun and rewarding instead of making tr more punishing?

[Dr_Shevek]

I am a new player and I find that many other players as I level are players that are on their next lives. Without them, the game world would be very empty and it would be very difficult to get groups going. Any solution should not remove them from those areas of the game.

My, admittedly novice, suggestion is thus:

If you Epic TR, you lose all ED XP for the Destiny you bond with but you gain a Past Life feat for that ED. Its like a trade all that ED XP for a ED Past Life feat (and a regular PL feat, I guess). All other ED XP (from other Destinies) is untouched.

Done. Simple. Intuitive.

Regular TR would be worse than Epic TR in that you cannot bond any ED and you lose all ED XP. That should push players who have Epic Destiny XP and want to TR to do an Epic TR and players who just want to play regular Heroic stuff can do the regular TR. Players who have alot of ED's will not sacrifice all of them and the exchange for that Epic feat would be much more fair.

All this talk of XP banks and the like is too complicated. Systems should be straightforward not convoluted.

[TheylostmyID]

I hear this all the time from players in my guild! Like when folks were using Shears of Fate. Very boring running a toon in an adjacent destiny especially ones that add nothing to class...

Make it that Bonded Epic Destiny remains active at full Tier while running adjacent destinies during Epic TR...

That is probably the best suggestion in the tread. I would be very happy with that.

[fourrumtest]

Devs, the goal is to make people want to epic TR right? Decent PLs will do this (and a decent Epic completionist PL) Why do you have to take ED xp away at all?

Leave heroic TR untouched. Add epic TR where you have to get to 28 (20-28 requires xp that will probably be equivalent to maxing out 3 EDs anyway), and that's it... Why remove ED exp at all? 1-28 eleven times is a pretty huge hurdle all by itself. (okay 15-28, but still... 1-15 is pretty fast)

I'll never epic TR 11 times... Neither will 98% of the players... You'll keep the 0.5% busy for 2 months, 1.5% busy for a year, and the rest of us will get 0-2 Epic TR PLs on our characters just like we do now with heroic TRs.

You want people buying xp pots right and you want to give people something to do at end-game, right? You don't have to take away ED exp to achieve these goals... (maybe you could ADD an ED every 6 months)

Like you said, the vast majority of us haven't maxed out EDs... The grind is already plenty for the vast majority of us. Don't take away our slowly earned ED xp to try and give the top 2% a huge grind...

(1) You don't need to
(2) It's probably going to backfire, and they may actually leave this time. The ED grind sucks... Adding a new 1-28 (or 15-28) TR process is a fun grind... We get to level again, mostly in our favorite ED... Grinding out EDs is NOT fun, especially when you don't get to keep them.

good points.

leave heroic tr alone is my favorite. quit half redoing old systems, only to leave them more borked and less finished than before.
heroic tr is for the most part fine. reduce the xp curve, or up the xp in 18 to 20 quests. other than that leave heroic out of this.

still waiting for you to come with an option that makes me remotely interested in epic tr.

[oradafu]

Yes, of course. Except when the starting destiny is the "off" destiny. Melee bards. Artificers. Arcanes wanting Shiradi due to the horrible way saves work in epics. Melee divines. Tucaws/juggernauts/other weird multiclasses. Archers with less than 6 ranger levels. Caster Druids. Many others I'm sure.

A sorcerer in the preferred ED requires a ranger-life or 3 "off" destinies to enter the desired ED, so you are way off base in saying the player chooses to grind the wrong destinies. But, I guess in your world everybody is a healer, a rogue or a fighter.

You're talking into the wind by replying to him. I essentially stated the same thing twice and told by him it was irrelevant. Apparently since players have an option to TR into a synergic class/build to the EDs, that is the proper option when trying to grind those EDs. Pointing out to him how unrealistic it is to TR every time that happens when grinding EDs seems pointless. In his mind, it is irrelevant that players don't want to TR each time that happens, play classes/builds that they don't want to play and such. The only thing relevant is that players can exchange the unfun grind EDs in an off-ED by TRing in a possible unfun class/build for said ED. Completely unreasonable and even a bigger waste of time.

[Superhanns]

I see all these peoples with all these ideas bring solutions to problems that dont even exist yet.

Bottom line is will epic tr improve the game and gamers experiences/fun/joy? the answer is no it wont

the more i think about it the more i realise what a S&$%y idea it is. bring more events to the game like cove or mabar type things but new ones and more of em if you need stuff to do, bring fun into the playerbase not more grind

i wont be doing the epic tr of any kind destiny reset or not

[Citzen_Gkar]

I suspect 80% of the vitriol here is due to fate points being lost, not ED XP being lost per se.

Well I'd say fate points + fate unlocks. You wouldn't want to suddenly find yourself unable to move between destinies again and have to regrind those stupid destinies to be able to get to the next destiny you wanted.

[Citzen_Gkar]

You're talking into the wind by replying to him. I essentially stated the same thing twice and told by him it was irrelevant. Apparently since players have an option to TR into a synergic class/build to the EDs, that is the proper option when trying to grind those EDs. Pointing out to him how unrealistic it is to TR every time that happens when grinding EDs seems pointless. In his mind, it is irrelevant that players don't want to TR each time that happens, play classes/builds that they don't want to play and such. The only thing relevant is that players can exchange the unfun grind EDs in an off-ED by TRing in a possible unfun class/build for said ED. Completely unreasonable and even a bigger waste of time.

Plus the little fact that in griding back to 28 so you can ETR again you will unlock multiple EDs so you will most definitely be grinding off destiny unless you want to throw half your xp while grinding to 28 into the trash.

I suspect he hasn't played Epic at all.

[Inoukchuk]

Good advice, which is why earlier in this thread I started a post saying "If I was designing this..."

Its nice that you have worked your way up to have 20 developers reporting to you. When I was but a lad of 30, I had 155 world class developers (spread across 2 US states and Japan) taking design guidance from me. I'll be happy to compare notes, when you catch up. By the way, that was over 20 years ago. You probably need to start running faster.

Do you play DDO at work? I admit, I really don't know what an "Uber completionist" is, but it sounds really time consuming.



For the sake of accuracy, I should note that they really weren't goals for me, as they were achieved without prior planning. They did, however, seem to be reasonable starter goals for you. Once you achieve them, by all means let me know, and I'll try to find something a bit more challenging. Baby steps.


O M G! Would you BOTH stop pulling out *yours* to see who's is bigger? It's past ridiculous now and detracting from the thread.

[Deadlock]

Well I'd say fate points + fate unlocks. You wouldn't want to suddenly find yourself unable to move between destinies again and have to regrind those stupid destinies to be able to get to the next destiny you wanted.

If for some reason they're not comfortable with non-purchased unlocks staying open, then keeping some sort of permanent unlock on any unbonded ED that you had previously capped would be some sort of compromise. We'll have somewhere between 4.5mil and 6.6mil Epic XP to cap at 28, which is more than enough to cap either 2 or 3 ED's. That's assuming they go ahead with the ED XP wipe in the first place. It does mean that you will have until U20 to cap any ED's that you want to keep available to you.

Lets see what they come up with in their next proposals by way of retaining some value from your ED XP when you Epic TR.

[Delacroix21]

Here is what I would like to see for the current TR system.


Heroic TR:
1. Any TR at levels 1-27 rewards a heroic feat and is like live (except no more XP penalty!)


Epic TR:
1. At 28 a player can epic TR gaining both a heroic PL feat and an ED past life feat of the current maxed ED active when TRing, as well as 1 fate point. If coding removal of fate points is hard then let's go with the easy option of not removing them and just adding to them.
2. At 28 with maxed XP, player can "activate" an XP bank. This XP accumulates and is used towards a TR if wanted. This will allow players at level cap a option and reward to play at cap longer rather than just feel they should TR again right away.
3. In the expansion add a 4th or even a 5th twist of fate slot.



Players who like the current system of starting at level 1 still can, and players who stay at level cap longer will not feel their time is wasted as they can use that XP in a TR. Players who are angry about losing ED XP won't and everyone is happy! :)

[Silverleafeon]

This does sum up a majority of the people I run with as well. Hopefully Turbine will address the XP required to ease the impact on people that play a lot of Alts to cap and max them out (regarding Twists).


I'd be really surprised if several isn't an understatement on how many are heavily invested in destinies. Of the players I run with commonly, all are heavily invested, none are capped in all destinies. There is a lot of value in reaching the twist level that you want and almost no value in going beyond that. I personally have no toons who have capped all destinies, but I have 6 toons that have run out to 4/1/1 twists and 2 who have 4/2/1 twists. So all are around 80% of the way to capped. Since I run 8 or 9 toons getting the next toons twists set up is more important than capping the rest of the destinies beyond those needed for twists.

Most people I know follow this pattern. Getting twists set up is a high priority, capping all dstinies is a very low priority.


This is the correct option Piloto.

Ditch the banking system.

Figure out the details of this option and get back to us so the players can offer our prospective opinions.

With a path laid out, would you share some thoughts on these epic past life feats?

And every time we Epic TR how about an extra 5 HP?


Thrudh is shouting d000000mmmm!!

Think about it devs, do not touch our ED XP at all.


Devs, the goal is to make people want to epic TR right? Decent PLs will do this (and a decent Epic completionist PL) Why do you have to take ED xp away at all?

Leave heroic TR untouched. Add epic TR where you have to get to 28 (20-28 requires xp that will probably be equivalent to maxing out 3 EDs anyway), and that's it... Why remove ED exp at all? 1-28 eleven times is a pretty huge hurdle all by itself. (okay 15-28, but still... 1-15 is pretty fast)

I'll never epic TR 11 times... Neither will 98% of the players... You'll keep the 0.5% busy for 2 months, 1.5% busy for a year, and the rest of us will get 0-2 Epic TR PLs on our characters just like we do now with heroic TRs.

You want people buying xp pots right and you want to give people something to do at end-game, right? You don't have to take away ED exp to achieve these goals... (maybe you could ADD an ED every 6 months)

Like you said, the vast majority of us haven't maxed out EDs... The grind is already plenty for the vast majority of us. Don't take away our slowly earned ED xp to try and give the top 2% a huge grind...

(1) You don't need to
(2) It's probably going to backfire, and they may actually leave this time. The ED grind sucks... Adding a new 1-28 (or 15-28) TR process is a fun grind... We get to level again, mostly in our favorite ED... Grinding out EDs is NOT fun, especially when you don't get to keep them.


I would like to vote for option 2.

I also like the option of removing destiny XP from the destiny that you have gotten the past life from. The past life feat is the reward for losing that XP. And a single destiny is not a big deal to relevel up and will actually make the next life more interesting. Character progression is a big draw for me; having all ED's maxed out with nowhere to go next is not a big draw for me.


I suspect 80% of the vitriol here is due to fate points being lost, not ED XP being lost per se. I never actually want to *run* my Pale Master in Shadowdancer, and the fact that I had to claim it in the first place is mildly annoying. Put differently: a change that will incent me to level up Shadowdancer a *second* time is a TR-killer.

What I'd really like to see, which I think balances between the stated goals and complexity of solution, is this:

- Credit for ED levels towards fate points is "remembered". Fate points, and partial credit from ED levels, survive the TR. A particular ED level can't be counted towards fate points a second time after a TR.
- Map unlocks of particular ED's are remembered, so that I could "pick up where I left off" making my way across the map without having to spend time in a ED I don't care about.

This seems like it fits your "simple system" criteria. Someone who had already capped all EDs would have to relevel the EDs they *actually want to use* only.

To be fair, I don't TR frequently. I've done so once, and *might* do so on my main in the future. However, having to re-level the destinies that "don't make sense" for my character, even once, would probably be a deal killer. It was interesting to try... once.


I do not want to lose ANYTHING on epic TR. The problem is that there is too little epic xp available to make epic xp loss a viable option. I hate, despise, and abhor grinding out one quest for every last xp. At least when leveling from 1-20, you grind lots of quests. Something new at each level. Give us more epic xp,(content) and you will see much less vitriol.


I see all these peoples with all these ideas bring solutions to problems that dont even exist yet.

Bottom line is will epic tr improve the game and gamers experiences/fun/joy? the answer is no it wont

the more i think about it the more i realise what a S&$%y idea it is. bring more events to the game like cove or mabar type things but new ones and more of em if you need stuff to do, bring fun into the playerbase not more grind

i wont be doing the epic tr of any kind destiny reset or not

Just a small slice of the attitudes you will find in game.
Hmm...shall I requote all the players who posted here objecting to taking candy away from us?

I could...

[Scrapco]

(We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)

i?! No wonder my handwraps are always broken. :-P

[Silverleafeon]

I would not do an Epic TR if it is option 1.
I think Heroic should be separate from Epic. They are now, lets keep it that way.

This is sometime to consider.

I talk to the players in game, and this is what they want.

However if you offer very uber stuff, then they will reconsider.

However if you then nerf that uber stuff, they will definitely be so upset..

This is just another corner for you to paint yourself into.

[Silverleafeon]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.I am tired of this.
I care about my friends.
You offer option 1 plus uber stuff, and I might just sit at cap and ignore it.
No more buying xp potions, no more buying Otto's boxes, etc..

You offer option 2 then I might continue TRing,
and playing with enthusiasm.


Gaming experts KNOW that enthusiasm for the game is a diamond quality.


Trashing ED XP is really turning me off.

[QuantumFX]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Keep it simple, just allow us to bind 1 destiny plus an additional destiny for each sphere that we have capped and still has an unbound destiny. Since the new leveling scheme will allow us to cap 3 destinies per incarnation it should work out fine.

Also, allow us to keep our destiny unlocks.

You could also just make “Epic Advantage” give us leveling tokens (1 token = 1 rank, BtC, They stack in one slot, and fit in an ingredient bag.) instead of making a massive new system. The XP bank idea has the problem of diminishing returns. (When you bind a destiny you lose the bonus XP for all future T.R. and the XP ratios are pre built in.)

Lastly, just make each E.D.P.L feat grant an extra Fate Point (To make up for the non-benefits of capping a destiny.) And grant us a Twist slot with a 0/1/2/3 cost when we have all the current E.D.P.L. feats. (This is to keep the power creep to a minimum.)

[Silverleafeon]

It's my official position. If there is something my toons can or should do that wipes out capping all of the EDs on two toons, I will leave DDO.

~ Dazz

DDO ~ "I hope you don't find the ice too thin."
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin_Ice_(1937_film)

[Silverleafeon]

Don't you understand.

Alpha enhancements have got us upset already.
If we like beta then we calm down.

[Razahe]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.


If you mix those two options, you get a pretty solid system. I'd suggest something like that:

Heroic TR, level 20+:
- Basically untouched
(- optional: ED XP turn-in)

Epic TR, level cap:
- Reset 1 maxed destiny for a epic destiny feat, other destinies are untouched
- Reseted destiny will remain unlocked, but fate points will be removed
- Heroic past life gained as usual
- Character starts at 1.
- optional: ED XP turn-in

Optional: ED XP turn-in:
- allow players to turn in ED XP at a given rate for heroic XP (not the ETR'ed destiny ofc)
- Destinies do not have to be maxed for this
- If you turn in a destiny, it will remain unlocked, but fate points will be removed
- Option A: Choose the destinies you want to turn in right when you ETR(/TR) (default should be "not turned in" for all EDs)
- Option B: Remove the connection between TRing and ED XP turn in and allow players to burn those XP at any time

Option B kinda replaces a banking system, allows you to burn the XP depending on your mood ("I am up for a Wizking grind till 15 now" vs. "Ah what the heck, i'll burn my caster EDs now").

In general I am absolutly for keeping all ED XP for any not TR'ed ED (exception is the optional turn in ofc). You have to relevel every destiny once anyways to get all feats, so theres no reason to burn them all every TR. Especially as some people like to get to cap, play for like 2-3 months and then TR again. If you have to waste 80% of that time just to get back to the point where you got the relevant(/"needed") twists, theres not much fun left.

Raz

[luvirini]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.


Both of these systems are much better than the initially proposed one.

Basically as long as we can keep the existing epic destiny levels, when normal TRing and not lose other destinies than the one they TR in when epic TRing it is fine.

[Dreemz]

Cant the fate points be counted as the Favor is counted today?
That you "unlock" fate points, but you can only get more fate points if you get a total of ranks that's higher then before?
Like favor have unlocks for set things like 3000 points for Vet II. And you can only get it if you get up to 3000 points in a single life, and not if you get 1500 in one life and 1500 more in the next.

[Darkrok]

Cant the fate points be counted as the Favor is counted today?
That you "unlock" fate points, but you can only get more fate points if you get a total of ranks that's higher then before?
Like favor have unlocks for set things like 3000 points for Vet II. And you can only get it if you get up to 3000 points in a single life, and not if you get 1500 in one life and 1500 more in the next.

I think that's what most of the people asking for fate points to stay are asking for.

Honestly though, fate points do nothing if you want to twist lots of different abilities. I twist things from at least 5 different destinies (and that's just off the top of my head...might even be higher) and they're all over the ED map. Regrinding those twists (the abilities, not the fate points) would be a major barrier to considering any TR options.

[Ravand]

The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions... <snip>

~Erik
@producerglin

This is an acknowledgement of the time investment. But what about the investment of real-world money into Keys of Destiny, with the understanding these keys were a one-time purchase? This still has not been addressed.

I appreciate the feedback, and know the devs can't address every point raised in the pages in between the dev posts. However, I hope this concern is acknowledged soon.

[Rubbinns]

Hi.

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

Option 2 is soothing to hear over just Option lose your ED levels.

Thank you for posting, it's an avenue for players to feel connected with the game and vent frustrations excuse any in your face screaming tone posts please. Offering to engage in dialogue with its consumers is needed for any company to offer their best product and services going forward.

Majority of the players feel they would not in the slightest want to re-cap EDs. Maybe something along the lines of giving a small passive Past life-like ability for every individual ED we wish to re-cap again. The ability would be similar to a level 0 innate on an ED, or slightly less powerful.

Giving increased Fate Points might be enough to convince me to grind out every destiny again. But the fate Points have to be enough to unlock tiers 5/3/2 over the 4/2/1 currently available. Although that limits the game's design space for any future EDs you wish to implement- and who doesn't like moar Destinies!!. And that Twists of fate are better than a large portion of character feats further adds complications to something like that.

[moonprophet]

My thoughts on all this is Fate points.

I dont think its the capped destinys that are the problem, I have unlocked lvl 3/2/1 Twists with my lvl 25, how did i do this...i grinded out hours on 2min runs on rusted blades, now that is fair enough and i would hate to lose them earned fate points, but do i deserve 5 ranks in exalted angel etc for never ever truly running that destiny...I dont think i do.

So my point is try to keep the fate points, re do the destinys and you will only concentrate on the destinys you truly need then Tr them for Feat, seems simple enough (hopefully you will unlock more fate points on the way back up).

If anyone truly did run them destinys to cap I tip my hat, and that would be horrible (but i doubt anyone in DDO has done that!)

...you would be wrong friend. Some of us don't cheat. The reason we do not is that doing so gives the devs ammunition to make these kinds of changes. If everyone played above board, the argument that w are losing invested time would be more valid. Do not assume that everyone plays the way you do or takes advantage of silly exploits. Some of us enjoy the journey as well as the destination.

That being said, I have browsed this thread and have yet to find a reply from the customer base saying, YEAH! I can't wait for these proposed changes. So the question is , will Turbine give the consumer what they want, or make changes that only the devs seem to want?

[Systern]

Option 1: XP Bank system:
Upon Epic TRing, 1 unbonded destiny is added to the collection of bonded destinies, if able.
Unbonded destinies are wiped
Unlocked destinies remain unlocked (Don't make poor Artis regrind from Arcane sphere, thru martial, to Shiradi every life)
For each fate point achieved (total, including Tome and Bonded destinies), the Epic Advantage grants 1 Stone of Experience: Epic Seed.
The Stone of Experience: Epic Seed is
-ML 1
-Max Stack size 1000
-BTC
-No Bank, No Mail, No Auction
-Good for a Fixed amount of XP (i.e. 200,000 xp stones would mean that a player would get 4 million XP across 20 stones after TRing with maxxed destinies.)


This gives the player the ability to decide what their advantage is.
A player going for completionist, tr'ing into an unknown class will not have to start in the middle of the life.
It keeps TR duos/groups in sync with one another since the advantage isn't forced on them.
The stones can be used during the 18-20 slump.
The stone could be used at level 24 after their first destiny is maxed and they go back to sucking again in a new destiny.
The stones can be stockpiled to get one more Bard/Pally/<most hated class> past life.
As more Epic TRs are completed, the advantage of Bonded + Tomes increases, decreasing the amount of total "grind" a player perceives.
Incentivizes buying a Tome of Fate +2 which are currently mathematically irrelevant to the present maxxed destiny crowd.
System is consistent. It doesn't need a "Grandfather clause" for people that have utilized the system for 1.5 years before being implemented. It also provides benefits for the poor saps that want to re-max their destinies each and every life.
System is scalable. As new destinies are added, the benefit will scale as well.
If a destiny is able to be bonded, you get an epic past life feat.
If all destinies are bonded, and you're at level cap, you can epic TR for the stones should you choose. (i.e. your build gets nerfed)*


Epic Completionist Feat perk:
Stones of Experience: Epic seed become BTA ?


Potential for 'abuse':
I know the first destiny I'm going to bond is Magister, so I never have to level it again. The stones will probably be used to insta-level hated off-destinies.

*My completionist-to-be has just finished her 4th life. If Iconics are added "into the cycle", that means 17+ lives total; 13 undone (not including 'final life'). With only 11 Destinies available for Epic TR, that means that I'll probably have 2 lives where It's 'wasteful' to play to level 28.... This system provides a means to not 'feel-bad' about playing epic levels on those lives.
Unless Iconics grant the Iconic PL and Class PL (You are letting us build our chars with them after all... It'll be silly to have a Bladeforged Pally 2/Sorc 18 get an iconic PL that's paladin themed. )


Okay, so you guys are trying to avoid stacking past lives, this adds in a touch of our love/lust for Otto's boxes to add perpetual benefit for TRing again at Epic Levels.

[JOTMON]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

I would suggest scrap both of these idea's.
these presented options of banking xp and bonding xp **** has to be a joke.
Drop any XP banking , Hedging, or any other comvoluded mechanics.

Keep the Heroic and Epic separate as you have done so far.
EPIC TR should be EPIC worthy and only affect the Epic component of the character build..


Cap a destiny=unlock TR
Activate a Epic Destiny TR = resets XP for that specific destiny line and grants Destiny Bonus... does not affect any other destiny lines.

TR and re cap all Destinies to unlock the Epic Completionist bonus..

Done.

KISS.. Keep it Simple....

[Permian]

That being said, I have browsed this thread and have yet to find a reply from the customer base saying, YEAH! I can't wait for these proposed changes. So the question is , will Turbine give the consumer what they want, or make changes that only the devs seem to want?

YAY!! I can't wait for these changes!!!!



Sorry couldn't resist :P

[BurnerD]

ok we've gotten developer feedback. They have:
1. acknowledged their initial direction wasn't well received.
2. Are considering other options.
3. Still open to feedback/suggestions.

At this point the only thing we should be posting is new suggestions/constructive feedback on the most recent dev posts.

I think they get most of us wont use the system they initially suggested and it may affect player retention.

Keep the feedback polite and to the point from now on. If they don't have to sort through pages and pages of spew it may help.

For those of you who still don't get it... they are not going to give you a definitive answer any time soon. They fact that we have an open dialogue is a big plus. Keep demanding the answer you want and eventually they will clam up again. For every 20 people who hate the proposed system there are a few who like it (i'm not one of them). They have to take ALL feedback into consideration before deciding direction.

I posted earlier in the thread my disappointment with the initial post and am at least now mildly optimistic we may get something more reasonable.

stay classy DDO denizens.... :)

[TBot1234]

Devs, the goal is to make people want to epic TR right? Decent PLs will do this (and a decent Epic completionist PL) Why do you have to take ED xp away at all?Although I've said this before, I agree that there is no need to take ED XP away at all. Whether it is a regular TR or Epic TR, there is no need to tie ED XP to character level XP. Maybe having to re-acquire one ED during an Epic TR would be ok. Keep the two things mostly separated and you'll probably find a better way to implement Epic TR, please players, and not alienate loyal customers.

[magn0liafan]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a one time opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).


For those opposed to option 1, if the emphasized text was definite (would instead of could) and you had the (albeit one time) opportunity to bond all your destines that you have capped, would you consider this?

[newforumsnameagain]

You guys figure out that "internal code" on your end...

i just realized, turbine has stopped making decisions..its all in the hands of the wacky out of control code which is not really making decisions so much as proceeding to whatever course of action is immediately least difficult to take.

we shouldve realized this sooner as not only the devs but also their forum cheerleaders have stated many a time that they are not in control of the monster they have made. i think the turbine execs know this and that is why they are all "gimmeh all yo money, nao!" lately...

"the lord giveth and the lord taketh away", and eventually you have atheists and these crazy doods known as sciamentists. !?!?!

i tihnk basically the iconic past lives will be uber weak with the current proposal for iconic tr, and the epic destiny past life will not be nearly good enough to a) overcome the hurt feelings from the ultimate betrayal turbine is about to layeth upon ourselfs b) overcome the amount of xp grind necessary to get it c) make people who play endgame want to tr to actually get what is probably a negligible bonus to their toon, also...its only one toon thats getting it...

on the other hand what does everyone expect? turbine to not make new stuff? then everything gets run to death and ppl leave out of boredom. so its either new stuff obsoleting the old or changing existing stuff. frankly i think what turbine is doing is plain wrong and should be reported to that magical place that prevents bad stuff, but since they arent giving us more inventory/bag/bank space i prefer regrinding xp to destroying items. still wrong as all heck tho.

also at delacroix...you ran that quest 847 times. turbine didnt really make you. they may not have given you many choices, but on a real simple level you had at least 3: run the quest 847 times, settle for less fate points, just dont play. that last one is aaaaaaaalways there bud, its the one thing turbine cant take awa....well...its..there..sort of....
also if you dont like repeating quests why in the world would you ask for turbine to REMOVE the penalty for repeating a quest? unless that was a typo that is just absolutely the dumbest thing i ahve ever heard a ddo player seriously suggest, unless you were joking. i hope you were.
additionally if you were getting 20 odd k or whatever from id or rusted blades or wahtever you were running it doesnt sound like repetition penalty was a problem.
you had some good suggestions in your other posts that i read...

turbine, please read our suggestions, please dont break more stuff, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease make u21 the magical fix of ddo!

and please please please paleplzplzplzpzlpzlzplzpzlpzlzpzlpzlzplzplzpozlpzl zpzlpzlzplzpzlpzlzplzplzpzlzplzpzlzplz
PLEASE BAN ME FOREVER, i cannot end my addiction myself.

boondockz argo..

[Dreemz]

Option 1: XP Bank system:
Upon Epic TRing, 1 unbonded destiny is added to the collection of bonded destinies, if able.
Unbonded destinies are wiped
Unlocked destinies remain unlocked (Don't make poor Artis regrind from Arcane sphere, thru martial, to Shiradi every life)
For each fate point achieved (total, including Tome and Bonded destinies), the Epic Advantage grants 1 Stone of Experience: Epic Seed.
The Stone of Experience: Epic Seed is
-ML 1
-Max Stack size 1000
-BTC
-No Bank, No Mail, No Auction
-Good for a Fixed amount of XP (i.e. 200,000 xp stones would mean that a player would get 4 million XP across 20 stones after TRing with maxxed destinies.)



Yes i see the potential in this, as i often feel that a boost of 100k or so could be nice as i would then be able to join some friends TRing. Maybe make it 50k a stone and 1 stone for each rank you have for a max of 50 stones if you TR.
It would also solve the problem whit the wipe of XP, but then again the first time they TR after maxing there ED they will lose a bit. But in the long run it might be a good system, and you wont be mega strong when you hit 20 thanks to your twists for the first 4-5 life's.
And for sake of the argument, i do want to play epic stuff if i feel it makes my char stronger so i do really want a Epic TR system. But i don't want a system that's made from stupid short term decisions but that's really been past the grinding stone so it wont hurt they player base or make players hate the game(like making it to easy or resetting the ED system).
I also think that to TR a Iconic hero you would need to do a Epic TR and not a simple TR. Else it might be used to get simple heroic past life's, wile if they need to do a Epic TR it wouldn't be as much of a difference. Or that if you TR in to a Iconic hero you'll start at lvl 1.
And i also hope they make a revisit to some other stuff like the Titan raid so people starts playing it at level again or that it gets a epic version.

[Systern]

For those opposed to option 1, if the emphasized text was definite (would instead of could) and you had the (albeit one time) opportunity to bond all your destines that you have capped, would you consider this?


Going from "done" today to "done" the hour after Update 20 hits seems like a waste of developer time.

The system needs to provide a goal to progress towards without invalidating previous efforts, not just move people that are currently at the end to the new end.

[LightBear]

My solution would look something like this:
On doing an Epic True Reincarnation the active Epic Destiny gets erased (xp only, you get to keep your Twist of Faith Points). All of your other Epic Destinies remain intact. The Active ED on E-TR will give you the new feat and if you go through this ED again new Faith Points are gained. So if you would go through each ED 3 times you would wind up with 55 Faith Points.

Of course this would mean you have to be able to spend those 55 Faith Points on some thing. So more Twist of Faith slots would be needed as well as the option to twist in tier five and six abilities. Probably at a higher price then you would expect.




1 2 3 4 5 6 Tier Ability
1 1 2 3 4 8 16
2 2 3 4 5 10 20
3 3 4 5 6 12 24
4 4 5 6 7 14 28
5 5 6 7 8 16 32
6 6 7 8 9 18 36
7 7 8 9 10 20 40
8 8 9 10 11 22 44
9 9 10 11 12 24 48
10 10 11 12 13 26 52

Twist
Slot



I've posted this elsewhere but this seems to be the official place to put it.

I would like constructive criticism on it so that it can be improved.

Personally I think it would be nice to see some of the ideas posted by others (Epic Destinies XP Banking for one and just TR-ing without any "lost Destiny XP and trade off gains") implemented as well with mine and let the player choose what option it wants to go for.
See this game is all about having multiple options and the flexibility it brings with it.

[Delacroix21]

I still think we can incorporate all 3 ideas and make everyone happy:

1. Heroic TR stay same, with decreased/removed XP penalties

2. Epic TR gain 1 past life feat, 1 heroic past life, and 1 fate point. ED XP untouched.

3. A seperate XP bank at level 28 can bank XP to be used towards a TR if desired.

[newforumsnameagain]

also, here is my suggestion which fits your simple solution requirement:
Don't. Touch. ****.
do you really need to? do you really need to right now? have you fully explored the impact and listened to player feedback for REAL? did you try caring about what they said? have you thought of the almighty code and all the possible permutations your changes could have? is this an opportunity to actually make the game better, or is it another opportunity for rushed developments to bork more content further angering people who just seem to always be upset about many many aspects of the game (and i dont mean they are unhappy with their abilities or some such "easily" handled bleh, i mean bugs, halfworking forums, evil deeds like giving xp and then taking it away and before you think it no you are not giving it back to me as heroic ranks, because rank 96 is ~200k while lvl 1 of an ed is iirc ~180k, so that would be the only time its worth it and im asssssuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuming these ranks are added at the front end, meaning i get to skip freaking korthos which is over in half an hour anyway, thanks saved me a lot of time. oh wait you are actually taking about infinte hours minus 30 minutes, *clap.) do you think that new stuff, likely to be broken and full of ignored player advice is going to generate enough interest to outweigh the irritation of things we currently have that do not function properly regardless even of their morally questionable intent? obviously you cant give the players everything they want (i win ddo button kids i am talking about you, i know you wish they were real) but you ahve to toss the dog a bone or else it dies of lack of bone chewing.
maybe you can make these or other, better changes, later.
inshort my simple plan: good customer service, l2p bros.

da booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ondockz

[Systern]

Yes i see the potential in this, as i often feel that a boost of 100k or so could be nice as i would then be able to join some friends TRing. Maybe make it 50k a stone and 1 stone for each rank you have for a max of 50 stones if you TR.
It would also solve the problem whit the wipe of XP, but then again the first time they TR after maxing there ED they will lose a bit. But in the long run it might be a good system, and you wont be mega strong when you hit 20 thanks to your twists for the first 4-5 life's.
And for sake of the argument, i do want to play epic stuff if i feel it makes my char stronger so i do really want a Epic TR system. But i don't want a system that's made from stupid short term decisions but that's really been past the grinding stone so it wont hurt they player base or make players hate the game(like making it to easy or resetting the ED system).
I also think that to TR a Iconic hero you would need to do a Epic TR and not a simple TR. Else it might be used to get simple heroic past life's, wile if they need to do a Epic TR it wouldn't be as much of a difference. Or that if you TR in to a Iconic hero you'll start at lvl 1.
And i also hope they make a revisit to some other stuff like the Titan raid so people starts playing it at level again or that it gets a epic version.

While I definitely don't think my proposed ratio is best or anything, I think yours might be too good.

50k stone per rank means that it is correct to get every destiny to level 1 before TRing. Level 0 ranks are 36k a piece, at Epic quest rates. It becomes a no-brainer to get 36k epic xp for 50k potentially-heroic xp. Also that wouldn't provide benefit just past the 2nd destiny you maxxed (24 ranks per destiny).

Unless we're just confusing terminology... Ranks are each dot, each skill point. There are 4 ranks per Level, and 5 Levels per destiny.

[magn0liafan]

Going from "done" today to "done" the hour after Update 20 hits seems like a waste of developer time.

The system needs to provide a goal to progress towards without invalidating previous efforts, not just move people that are currently at the end to the new end.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. The remainder of the text remains the same, as in, only gaining one ED PL Feat per Epic TR.

[Systern]

Sorry about the misunderstanding. The remainder of the text remains the same, as in, only gaining one ED PL Feat per Epic TR.

But in all their proposed systems, Bonding is what grants the PL. They do not intend to make triple stacking Epic PLs unlike the heroic... So, If you bond them all at once, you either get all the PLs or have no means to attain them.

[redspecter23]

But in all their proposed systems, Bonding is what grants the PL. They do not intend to make triple stacking Epic PLs unlike the heroic... So, If you bond them all at once, you either get all the PLs or have no means to attain them.

There is no mention of bonding all destinies, just multiple destinies. Perhaps it's two, maybe one sphere or maybe 4 of your choice. Maybe they do mean all, though I doubt it. I think there are too many variables in the option 1 proposal as it's stated. It could either be too good/easy or a trap. Option 2 is much more transparent, which is why I think it's more popular currently. Option 1 is really only half an option. We need more info. As mentioned, perhaps bonding and past lives are separate. Though you may be able to bond multiple/all destinies, perhaps you still need to level them again in order to gain the past life. As suggested in option 2, you don't lose any destiny xp (they all stay maxed) though nobody assumes in that option that you immediately gain all past lives.

[Habitual.0]

I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.


We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:



Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


How does this system look in practice?

Heroic True Reincarnation



Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


Epic Destiny True Reincarnation



Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat

Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny


Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


Epic Advantage


With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

Iconic True Reincarnation

That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)



Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
Earns ranks from Epic Advantage


What else?

Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:



Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.


Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.


I have to admit when I first saw this post I was upset but after a day of thinking about it I decided to comment.



Starting at the Heroic TRing

Since you are revamping things change the past life feats both passive and active, here are my suggestions:

Barbarian: Gain 1HP per level of barbarian or 20HP a past life. Stackable 3 times as always would only be an additional 60HP

Bard: +1 to Enchantment DC plus the already +2 to the current saves

Cleric: +5 to heal (I hear you are changing things to make the heal skill actually count for heals) plus the current pluses

Fighter: +2 to attack rolls and to the DC of tactical feats

Paladin: 10% Heal amp instead of the current 5%

Ranger: +2 to Hit with a ranged weapon, +3 to damage and +5 to every elemental resist

Rogue: +1 to reflex, +2 save for traps, +3 to disable traps and +5 Sneak attack damage

Sorcerer: +1 Evocation DC as normal +50SP and +10 to elemental damage

Wizard: +10 Universal spell power, +2 Spell Pen as normal Something like wand mastery for wand usage

Monk: +2 to attack rolls, +1 to damage and +5 to concentration

Favored Soul: +10 to light/Impulse damage +1 Spell Pen and +50 SP

Primal Avatar: +2 to all minion stats, +5 Resistance to Poison and Disease

Shadow Dancer: +1 Dexterity, +2 to reflex, +5 Sneak Attack Damage, +1 (W) when sneak attacking

Shiradi Champion: +5 to Hit ranged, +1 (W) with a bow, +5 Damage, +5 to all elemental damage

Unyielding Sentinel: 3/- Damage reduction, +25 HP, +10% Heal Amp





In summery; What I fear most is that you guys are making decisions based on getting more money. I do not think that Turbine yet realizes that if they made an awesome game people would flock to it.



These changes would bring several things I feel. The new Heroic Past Life feats would make people want to TR the Heroic levels again/more. (These should be retroactive I think, Perhaps make people do a Lesser TR to get the changes or something. If you absolutely HAVE to make people get these over again then I suggest keeping the old ones and letting people also have the new versions. I think that would reward those players who have been with you the longest instead of shafting those players completely with taking them away AND making them redo those lives)



In order to TR the Epic Destiny Stuff, you will have to buy a heart of wood which I think we all understand. Personally I wouldn’t allow for an in game option or if you make it a drop then make it rare. Even Still if one wanted to TR and have every single ED Past Lift Feat they will need to TR at least 12 times which means they have to buy 12 hearts.



So let’s look at someone who is an epic competionist who had gotten 3 epic destiny past lives on every epic destiny. Ignoring previous Heroic Lives and feats:



+ 222 HP

+6 to all Ability Scores

+27 To Hit

+9 to All Tactical Feats

+27 Weapon Damage

+3 (W) Damage

+540 Spell Points

+24 Spell Penetration

+6 DC to all Spells

+3 Evocation DC

+99 Elemental Spell Power

-9% Spell Point Cost

+99 Radiance/Impulse Spell Power

+3 Necro DC

+9 Perform Skill

+3 Enchantment DC

+3 Songs per Rest

+3 Rages P/R

+15 Concentration

+6 to All minions

+15 to all Poison/Disease Resist

+6 to Reflex Save

+15 Sneak Attack Damage

+3 (W) while Sneak Attacking

+15 to Hit with Ranged

+3(W) with Bows/Crossbows

+15 Damage

+15 to all Elemental Resists

9/- Damage Reduction

+30% Heal Amp



That’s my two Platinum anyways.

[Dreemz]

While I definitely don't think my proposed ratio is best or anything, I think yours might be too good.

50k stone per rank means that it is correct to get every destiny to level 1 before TRing. Level 0 ranks are 36k a piece, at Epic quest rates. It becomes a no-brainer to get 36k epic xp for 50k potentially-heroic xp. Also that wouldn't provide benefit just past the 2nd destiny you maxxed (24 ranks per destiny).

Unless we're just confusing terminology... Ranks are each dot, each skill point. There are 4 ranks per Level, and 5 Levels per destiny.

Oo sorry i mean ranks as in levels in a destiny. So you can get 5 stones a ED. Or that you don't get any stone for the first level. So you'll get 200-250k total from stones in a lvl 5 ED. Like i said i like the ide, but 200k a stone is a big leap at least on lower levels. Then again like i said in a post before, why cant it be set to sphere that's lost and not a full ED chart. So first in a sphere costs 3 maxed ED to lock in 1 single one. Next time in that Sphere its only 2 maxed for 1 and then 1 for 1. Would not really make it that much of a grind to lock in a full sphere as you only need 6 mil XP. And if you need about the same to make it from 20 to 28 anyhow you'll only need to stick to this 2-3 EDs and max them out.
What i don't like about the first ide the Devs had was wiping all the ED´s as that's really a lot of XP to grind, making it that you need a fair amount of XP per Epic TR is only a good think to make it last a wile longer. I think the ide of TRing should not be to get stronger from not doing much as the ED´s did, but to get stronger by really doing something over a long period of time like the heroic TR´s have done. And heroic TR´s might not be perfect for a example as there's some drawbacks in later updates for it but its a lot more fun to TR then to simply run the same raid over and over again.

[redspecter23]

I have to admit when I first saw this post I was upset but after a day of thinking about it I decided to comment.



Starting at the Heroic TRing

Since you are revamping things change the past life feats both passive and active, here are my suggestions:

Barbarian: Gain 1HP per level of barbarian or 20HP a past life. Stackable 3 times as always would only be an additional 60HP

Bard: +1 to Enchantment DC plus the already +2 to the current saves

Cleric: +5 to heal (I hear you are changing things to make the heal skill actually count for heals) plus the current pluses

Fighter: +2 to attack rolls and to the DC of tactical feats

Paladin: 10% Heal amp instead of the current 5%

Ranger: +2 to Hit with a ranged weapon, +3 to damage and +5 to every elemental resist

Rogue: +1 to reflex, +2 save for traps, +3 to disable traps and +5 Sneak attack damage

Sorcerer: +1 Evocation DC as normal +50SP and +10 to elemental damage

Wizard: +10 Universal spell power, +2 Spell Pen as normal Something like wand mastery for wand usage

Monk: +2 to attack rolls, +1 to damage and +5 to concentration

Favored Soul: +10 to light/Impulse damage +1 Spell Pen and +50 SP

Primal Avatar: +2 to all minion stats, +5 Resistance to Poison and Disease

Shadow Dancer: +1 Dexterity, +2 to reflex, +5 Sneak Attack Damage, +1 (W) when sneak attacking

Shiradi Champion: +5 to Hit ranged, +1 (W) with a bow, +5 Damage, +5 to all elemental damage

Unyielding Sentinel: 3/- Damage reduction, +25 HP, +10% Heal Amp





In summery; What I fear most is that you guys are making decisions based on getting more money. I do not think that Turbine yet realizes that if they made an awesome game people would flock to it.



These changes would bring several things I feel. The new Heroic Past Life feats would make people want to TR the Heroic levels again/more. (These should be retroactive I think, Perhaps make people do a Lesser TR to get the changes or something. If you absolutely HAVE to make people get these over again then I suggest keeping the old ones and letting people also have the new versions. I think that would reward those players who have been with you the longest instead of shafting those players completely with taking them away AND making them redo those lives)



In order to TR the Epic Destiny Stuff, you will have to buy a heart of wood which I think we all understand. Personally I wouldn’t allow for an in game option or if you make it a drop then make it rare. Even Still if one wanted to TR and have every single ED Past Lift Feat they will need to TR at least 12 times which means they have to buy 12 hearts.



So let’s look at someone who is an epic competionist who had gotten 3 epic destiny past lives on every epic destiny. Ignoring previous Heroic Lives and feats:



+ 222 HP

+6 to all Ability Scores

+27 To Hit

+9 to All Tactical Feats

+27 Weapon Damage

+3 (W) Damage

+540 Spell Points

+24 Spell Penetration

+6 DC to all Spells

+3 Evocation DC

+99 Elemental Spell Power

-9% Spell Point Cost

+99 Radiance/Impulse Spell Power

+3 Necro DC

+9 Perform Skill

+3 Enchantment DC

+3 Songs per Rest

+3 Rages P/R

+15 Concentration

+6 to All minions

+15 to all Poison/Disease Resist

+6 to Reflex Save

+15 Sneak Attack Damage

+3 (W) while Sneak Attacking

+15 to Hit with Ranged

+3(W) with Bows/Crossbows

+15 Damage

+15 to all Elemental Resists

9/- Damage Reduction

+30% Heal Amp



That’s my two Platinum anyways.

At first glance your upgrades seem to be extremely overpowered in many areas. Also, I believe it's been mentioned that destiny past lives are currently not intended to stack 3 times, only once. I think the non stacking nature may be a blessing in disguise as we may see past lives that are a bit more powerful as the devs can design them knowing that powergamers won't have 3x that advantage over first lifers or casuals, bringing the power level between the two closer together, keeping power creep to a minimum, while offering a more powerful past life than you can have in heroic (due to it's stacking potential).

[brian14]

Option 1 is completely unacceptable.

Option 2 is getting somewhat closer to realistic.

Keep working on it.
My sentiments exactly

[Tscheuss]

Yes, of course. Except when the starting destiny is the "off" destiny. Melee bards. Artificers. Arcanes wanting Shiradi due to the horrible way saves work in epics. Melee divines. Tucaws/juggernauts/other weird multiclasses. Archers with less than 6 ranger levels. Caster Druids. Many others I'm sure.

A sorcerer in the preferred ED requires a ranger-life or 3 "off" destinies to enter the desired ED,

^^ You make some good points here. I had forgotten to consider there are only 11 ED's for 13 classes. Also, I haven't much DDO experience in multi-classing, particularly at epic levels. I will keep these in mind should a planned life prove difficult for a given ED. :D



so you are way off base in saying the player chooses to grind the wrong destinies. But, I guess in your world everybody is a healer, a rogue or a fighter.

Ad hominem statements embedded in even a good argument can weaken that argument by drawing attention away from the good points one makes.


Anyway, back to the valid portion of your argument.


I still see my assertion as accurate; however, the points you make help me to see that its scope is narrower than I had thought. I now see that it applies only to planned characters. As such, I can see how the creators of spontaneous toons may feel as though I am criticizing their approach, and this is not my intent.
I sometimes like to create a toon without planning it out. It can feel more real, in a way, having to deal with "unforeseen" hiccups along the way.

Even so, a player makes a choice in either case. We are none of us "forced" to pick any given style of play, and this is why the "unfun" nature of grinding "off" ED's has no bearing on whether the XP Bank option is a good solution.

[Systern]

I have to admit when I first saw this post I was upset but after a day of thinking about it I decided to comment.


<snip>
In order to TR the Epic Destiny Stuff, you will have to buy a heart of wood which I think we all understand. Personally I wouldn’t allow for an in game option or if you make it a drop then make it rare. Even Still if one wanted to TR and have every single ED Past Lift Feat they will need to TR at least 12 times which means they have to buy 12 hearts.
<snip>

Awwwwwwww Hyellllll Noooooo...

The game does not need more double standards, fractured systems, and New Systems Trumping Old Ones.

Heroic Commendations already are Epic Raid Tokens that you can't use Raid Tokens for.
The cost of Lahar's augments has never been revisited from the 20 dungeon token cost they were previously. (and they need a recipe in Astral Shards, ditto Gianthold augment vendors)
There's really not a lot to do with Tokens of the Twelve these days.
Making a New heart that's not available in game is just another instance of abandoning the foundations of the game in an effort to extort more cash from the players.

[EllisDee37]

I still see my assertion as accurate; however, the points you make help me to see that its scope is narrower than I had thought. I now see that it applies only to planned characters. As such, I can see how the creators of spontaneous toons may feel as though I am criticizing their approach, and this is not my intent.
I sometimes like to create a toon without planning it out. It can feel more real, in a way, having to deal with "unforeseen" hiccups along the way.[/indent]Uh, no. It has nothing to do with "planned" versus "spontaneous."

Consider if I want to roll up a brand new shirardi sorc. You tell me: What destiny do I pick as my first one?

How about a fury of the wild paladin? The starting destiny would be...?

[Tscheuss]

don't wipe my epic xp on a heroic tr.

don't wipe my heroic xp on an epic tr.

if i ever epic tr wipe the xp from the one destiny i bond.

maybe make endgame fun and rewarding instead of making tr more punishing?

This has a nice simplicity to it. :D

*Limit epic TR to epic levels, restart at 20 with no class change.

*Heroic TR stays as it is.

*Have Kruz offer option to 'chain TR' epic and heroic (include HTR and ETR in epic heart)

[Yan_PL]

My biggest concern with epic TR is exactly the time I invested into getting all ED's to the highest level (not just mine, i have a friend with 3 chars with lvl 5 on all destinies).

Thus, I post it as another goal/demand/wish for the new system - appropriately reward for already invested time, so that your way to "ultimate power" doesn't waste steps you took so far


How to avoid dealing with the problem of "too much invested to go through that all over again"? As with many other problem, you can approach it like this: split the problem into little sub-problems until everything is solvable on its level. So, instead of "reset all ED xp" we could have something like, "Reset ED sphere", or, "For every ED sphere you capped, you can pick one destiny to get Epic TR benefit from". This way, instead of "give up all your ED xp" players see: "give up a fraction of your ED xp". Also, grouping destinies by spheres for purpose of Epic TR seems to be most elegant solution - as destinies in single sphere have a lot in common.

Separating Destiny reset/bonding/benefits also sounds like a nice concept. In a perfect solution, you want least "wasteful" as possible - so, as you accomplish further and further lives, you should be also progressing on "Epic Destiny" track. If you're already completionist and don't plan on further heroic TRs, you should be able to gain Epic TR benefits without going through lower levels again.


I'd also like to re-state that 38pt build isn't good enough to reward for burning level 28 char. However, bonus Ability point of choice, or perhaps two, would do the trick.


Describing this in terms of math: In multidimensional space of character progress from zero to point of "desired power", where we have one axis for Heroic TR, one axis for epic destinies, and one for the gear. Now, with addition of epic TR, we're perhaps adding another axis for Epic TR, or we're perhaps just shifting the point of "desired power" further away from players on current axes. And our dearest and best developers are responsible to make sure people don't feel "pushed back" on some axis or that people don't think "Desired power" got too far away to pursue, regardless of their current position at the moment of launch of new system. but, hey, math only complicates problems! :P to give an example, one of my melee characters is currently at the point of
(4.5 life, 6 destinies maxed, eSoS)
where desired would be
(18 lives [completionist + 2 more pally for hjamp + 2 more barb for hp + final build], 11 destinies maxed, eSoS + Hewer + set of +5 tomes).
Now, if each Epic TR resets all destinies, I would feel like pushed back to
(4.5, 1, eSoS).
Being pushed back is bad, mkay? If however, getting full Epic TR power would seem like
(30, 60, *),
I'd give up and ignore the Epic TR altogether, or just Epic TR once.

[SisAmethyst]

Hi.
Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
...

If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution...

One goal is to fairly reimburse time invested without promoting Epic vs. Heroic based on XP/minute...

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content...

Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation...



First of all thanks for the Feedback, which is very much appreciated! Especially also the given background info and goals, as it makes it more clearer for us players what you are aiming for and in such helps us to give better constructive critics.


So far the most vocal support, especially among those “heavily invested” in there ED's seems to be going towards option 2... and I'm not sure I understand why.

...

Epic TR is coming, some will use it some won't, I plan on using it.

...

I agree, as I actually like both paths, depending on which character I TR. I guess actually that even the majority of casual players or players that aren't in one of the top ten guilds would choose option 1 to run quicker through the TR process, while the hardcore/elite players or players with a good supporting guild don't much care about because they cap a character anyway in a couple of days. It even depends on the class as a pure bard life feels to take much longer as e.g. an artificer life. So the possibility to have a XP bank is a nice solution in that case.


I have to agree with others when they say you're underestimating how many people have invested heavily in EDs. I haven't focused strongly on maxing my EDs, I play alts, I play on more a few servers with a few static groups, so you'd call me one of those that take a very long time to take a character through content. And still I have a significant investment in EDs, one that i'd be furious over losing.

Whatever mining system you're using to give you that data is way off. That or you're interpreting it wrong. Please don't make the mistake of underestimating people's perceived investment in your game.

I agree that I don't like loosing my hard earned ED and I haven't just farmed them in RB neither, but accumulated on several TR cycles.

However I am pretty sure they have exact numbers how many players have how many EDs capped. The problem is more that the number alone doesn't say much if you compare thousand casual F2P players without maxed ED against hundred premium/vip players with maxed ED. But then again, does the total revenue of the thousand casual when they one time buy a cosmetic pet/armor outweigh what the hardcore/elite player invest to the game? Hard to say without the numbers, and it is unlikely Turbine will ever publish those.

Anyway apparently they seem to reconsider certain things, which I am thankful for.

[SisAmethyst]

Going from "done" today to "done" the hour after Update 20 hits seems like a waste of developer time.

The system needs to provide a goal to progress towards without invalidating previous efforts, not just move people that are currently at the end to the new end.

They haven't specified how much is bonded by this first time, maybe it's all the EDs you have active or twists in. Other option would be the current sphere only. Also this special bonding doesn't necessarily have to mean getting all the EPL feats, but maybe just that you not loose their current earned XP anymore.

[newforumsnameagain]

Hi.
Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
• Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
• Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
• Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
• Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
• And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

notice how everything is always a) nothing is set in stone/locked down b) very early in the development process c) player feedback is helpful and being listened to...notice that? not that such words are smoke being blown up certain individuals smoke holes, but given the amount of spam of these words and lack of followthrough i must declare they are either intentional **** or just plain meaningless. now on to some additional info.

-give players the NEW????? option of tring at level cap? what? this is new? you mean once i got to 25 i couldnt tr, well gee i guess i am a hackxzorz.
-give players more to achieve with a high level tr character. it already takes (2mil x11) - (20k x11) xp to cap all your destinies, plus 1.9 mil to just get to 20 on a first life, plus 3mil more to get to 25. so a firstlifer capping and maxing one destiny needs 1.9+3+1.98mil xp = 6.88 million xp, for fairly basic stuff. now personally i dont think xp is overly hard to come by, with all the tomes and pots and streaks and bonuses and whatnot, but essentially 6.88 mil for a new player who wants to do endgame, imagine a completionist with all their destinies capped, im hope you know the real number because you want to take it all away.
-give iconic heroes the ability to tr. you need a new system for that? at first i was just thinking you have got to be kidding me. then i remembered, you are not doing it because you want to, you are doing it because the code says you have to otherwise they cant tr. let us all bow before the almighty code-god, in whom we all invest our time and money. i will begin sending my suggestions directly to the code. plz provide and email or mailing address.
-optimize the system. ok, heres what you dont do. go changing things on a large scale rapidly without proper development and player feed back which you actually implement instead of just reading and going "bleh guess they dont agree at all remotely whatsoever with us or eachother. we will just do what we were going to. its bugged. ok." here is what you do, just get down and nasty with that code and beat it into submission, fix the bugs, identify the things that actually are broken or preventing a positive gaming experience; fix those things.
-compensate players. give me a time machine to go back in time and shoot myself before i start playing ddo. i would buy tubine points to acquire this item.

option 1: obliterate most of the content in the game for at least a considerable portion of the people who play ddo, thus probably leading to less care and attention on your part leading to it getting more buggy and broken (not that all of it is, now anyway) leading to more ppl not playing it. also less people will know it and still less people will then run it. SIMPLE solution: just get friggin rid of all that garbage, just let ppl start their toons at level 20. you give out less free turbine points, there is less to accomplish with a meaningless low level toon leading to more focus on "high level TR type"s, less stuff for you to bug, less stuff for you to manage, less stuff for you to think about, less stuff players need to run. but you wouldnt do that instead of the way that makes less sense, because then players wouldnt ever buy those packs. youre right, do the less simple thing, mb.

option 2: why is this not the only option. this is the first idea i have seen from you guys on the forums in a long time that i just plain liked. why was this not the original plan. /d'oh.

doctor boon of argo

edit: special street shout out to mah homie g nijjjjailz of argo-nezzen

[wonko_the_sane]

I've taken awhile to consider this before posting a response.

I should state at the start that I am a role-player, not a power-gamer. I still have alot of Epic Destiny XP.

From a role-playing perspective, whenever you "reincarnate" you start over with a fresh slate. You remember nothing of your past life, except since we are all exceptional heroes, some snippets. The mechanic for "remember nothing" is losing all your xp. The mechanic for "some snippets" are the Past Life Feats.

I think this should be continued with Epic TR. It makes sense when I look at it like a role-player. So, Epic TR should start you at level 0, on Korthos, with no XP of any kind (not even a Bonded Destiny) and a new Epic Past Life Feat.

However, losing all the Epic XP is a serious drag. A game-breaking drag for many of us. So I would implement an in-game, role-playing solution: a new NPC (maybe a hill-giant shaman) that can take you on a spiritual journey to remember your past life. For a reasonable cost, you can remember one Epic Destiny: It will be restored as it was before you Epic Reincarnated and you receive an appropriate amount of Fate Points for the Epic Desitiny Levels in that Destiny. This can't be the Destiny that you traded for the Epic Past Life Feat. That one will have to be re-learned. By "reasonable cost" I'm thinking an item that can be earned with no more than 20 runs of an Epic Raid. Let's call it a Hard-Boiled Phoenix Egg. It has a tiny chance to drop in any chest in any epic content, a higher chest to drop in any chest that gives Tokens of the Twelve (or similiar chest) and an even higher chance to appear as a quest reward. Definitely appears on 20th completion of any epic raid. The trader may want this Hard-Boiled Phoenix Egg and some other stuff. Or it may be that the Egg should be easier to get. In any event, it can be tweaked to be as easy or hard as it should be. It can be available in the store. If it is unbound it can be found on the AH or ASAH and people will love trading it and farming it for trades.

I think this would respect the effort we've put in for the Epic XP while keeping it fun to re-earn the Destiny. It also means that we don't have to level a bunch of Destinies we don't need to travel over to the Destiny we do want. Just unlock the one we want with the Egg. A smart player will have that Egg ready when they hit level 20.

That my 2cp.

[Qhualor]

something I have been sorta thinking about today. with epic TR and gaining past life feats would suggest that a character is considered separate from heroic characters. its like when you reach level 20 you are considered an epic character and leave behind the heroic version of yourself. when you enter an epic destiny, which normally would be one that fits your class/build best, it describes the mythic archetype you aspire to achieve. your destiny sets you apart from those who have yet or may achieve epic levels. epic destinies are supposed to be exceptional power and defines your place in the universe.

so im wondering why would there be an option to epic TR back to 20 and re-level to 28? why would we be granted an epic past life when we are considered on a path to being a demi god and earning increased power through the DDO leveling process in destinies? I remember someone saying epic characters are commoners with epic powers. I prefer to say we are heroes with epic powers actually and the road to great power is not an easy one that all are able to achieve.

personally, I like the idea of an epic feat but lets not confuse what epic levels and destinies really are.

[Tscheuss]

For those opposed to option 1, if the emphasized text was definite (would instead of could) and you had the (albeit one time) opportunity to bond all your destines that you have capped, would you consider this?

Oh, yes! The strongest argument for option 1 is the potential one-time bonding of multiple ED's. It is a great way save the hard work done by everyone who has worked on them from their release to date. :D


The XP bank part is just the icing on the cake, but I like icing too. XD

[AlmGhandi]

Option 1: XP “Bank” System...

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System...

I prefer option 1 for some reason.... :/



We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

SO what else are you considering?

Hopefully not just letting us waste more of our lives by talking about stuff that you ARE NOT considering?
Memnir had a piccie for this.... if only he hadn't stopped reading the forums!

[Tscheuss]

Awwwwwwww Hyellllll Noooooo...

The game does not need more double standards, fractured systems, and New Systems Trumping Old Ones.

Heroic Commendations already are Epic Raid Tokens that you can't use Raid Tokens for.
The cost of Lahar's augments has never been revisited from the 20 dungeon token cost they were previously. (and they need a recipe in Astral Shards, ditto Gianthold augment vendors)
There's really not a lot to do with Tokens of the Twelve these days.
Making a New heart that's not available in game is just another instance of abandoning the foundations of the game in an effort to extort more cash from the players.

Agreed. There should be a means to earn an epic heart ingame, just as there is for a true heart.

[Deadlock]

Heroic Commendations already are Epic Raid Tokens that you can't use Raid Tokens for.
The cost of Lahar's augments has never been revisited from the 20 dungeon token cost they were previously. (and they need a recipe in Astral Shards, ditto Gianthold augment vendors)
There's really not a lot to do with Tokens of the Twelve these days.
Making a New heart that's not available in game is just another instance of abandoning the foundations of the game in an effort to extort more cash from the players.

To avoid making "old" currency obsolete, all we need is a conversion rate between them.

Keeping the basics:

100 fragments = 1 Token
20 Token = 1 True Druidic Heart of Wood

I would tweak it slightly to try and breath some life into the Raids so that
1 Greater Token = 2 Token
10 Greater Token = 1 True Druidic Heart of Wood

Which therefore means
200 fragments = 1 Greater Token
2000 fragments = 1 True Druidic Heart of Wood

I would also propose that the Epic Druidic Heart of Wood would be
2 True Druidic Heart of Wood = 1 Epic Druidic Heart of Wood

So that would also mean that
4000 fragments = 1 Epic Druidic Heart of Wood
40 Token = 1 Epic Druidic Heart of Wood
20 Greater Token = 1 Epic Druidic Heart of Wood

We have an exchange rate at the moment that
1 True Druidic Heart of Wood in the store costs 1495 Turbine Points and
265 Astral Shard also costs 1495 Turbine points

So it follows that
1 True Druidic Heart of Wood = 265 Astral Shards
20 Tokens = 265 Astral Shards
10 Greater Tokens = 265 Astral Shards
2000 Fragments = 265 Astral Shards

Let us convert freely between these and we have an exchange system that will benefit everyone. Lahar in the twelve would welcome the increased traffic I'm sure :)

I would even take it further and suggest that 1 Heroic Commendation = 3 Greater Tokens and extend the barter options to allow us to freely convert between fragments, Tokens, Greater Token, Astral Shards and Heroic Commendations. If you don't think that you should be able to barter for Heroic Commendations, then run 40 CitW and tell me how you get on.

[Tscheuss]

Hi.
.
.
.

So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

^^ Just in case you didn't backtrace the quotes to learn the context, but I am sure you did. :D



Uh, no. It has nothing to do with "planned" versus "spontaneous."

Consider if I want to roll up a brand new shirardi sorc. You tell me: What destiny do I pick as my first one?

How about a fury of the wild paladin? The starting destiny would be...?

In short, a player's choice to take a difficult path to acquire ED's has no relevance in an argument against the viability of Option 1. On the contrary, the possibility of bonding multiple ED's (hopefully with the associated PL's) should befit such a toon, imo.

As far as your questions go, I think a discussion about the details of planning a toon may be a bit too far off topic for this thread, but they do sound interesting. ;)

[ForumAccess]

We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

Well this is extremely disappointing. I had thought that this ETR system was a brilliant way to allow people an in-game method to acquire the same effect as the Pay-to-Win Tomes of Fate. But apparently they are intended to remain as a per-character charge to anyone who wants to actually max out a character's potential.

Considering just how absurdly long it would take to actually max out your Fate Points, and the fact that most builds rely on specific lower level twists, it seems quite reasonable to offer players some method of advancing their twists besides pulling out the credit card.

The lack of any means at all to advance your Fate Points kind of sucks any enthusiasm that I had for the new system out, no matter how it ends up working.


Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

Assuming that, as in the original system proposed, you also get the Heroic PL feat that you qualified for, this seems acceptable at least.

At least to me, it seems like Major Game System changes should be something that will make people anxious to be able to jump on board. It kind of feels like there is not much excitement for this new ETR system, even among those who support it. Rather than a new thing that everyone is extremely excited to dive into, it seems more like the most positive things that anyone has to say about it come down to a flat "Oh joy. I have a longer treadmill to grind now." Maybe this will change when they start giving us an idea of the power level of the EPL feats, but they are a bit limited here because if they make them very strong it will create a major backlash from a different subset of players.

[slarden]

I appreciate the producer and devs demonstrating that they understand what our concern is and throwing out additional food for thought.

At this point I was mentally prepared to epic TR and lose all my destiny XP so regardless of what decision you make it already exceeds my expectations which were based on the first post.

My only recommendation is not to be overly heavy-handed with the social engineering to force people into epic TR vs. heroic TR. It makes sense that you should get more and better things from epic TR, but I don't think it's necessary to discourage people to heroic TR.

Besides, if epic TR is only available once per destiny, some new players may want to heroic TR as well for some more past lives.

My only comment is that with only 11 destinies to epic TR, you may find people are reaching epic completionist quicker than you anticipated and what is left to do after that since epic past lives only stack once per destiny.

Also, if you TR from an iconic do you get an iconic past life feat in place of a class feat or in addition?

Keep up the great work!

[Vyder]

[QUOTE=Piloto;

So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.[/QUOTE]

If I had to choose i would go with option 2, but instead of going from 1 to 28 I would rather do 20 to 28 plus the ED for the past life. I would like to be able to stay at cap for a while and run content. And be able to bank XP once I hit cap for those heroic TR levels that feel like they just won't end.

[Tscheuss]

I've taken awhile to consider this before posting a response.

I should state at the start that I am a role-player, not a power-gamer. I still have alot of Epic Destiny XP.

From a role-playing perspective, whenever you "reincarnate" you start over with a fresh slate. You remember nothing of your past life, except since we are all exceptional heroes, some snippets. The mechanic for "remember nothing" is losing all your xp. The mechanic for "some snippets" are the Past Life Feats.

I think this should be continued with Epic TR. It makes sense when I look at it like a role-player. So, Epic TR should start you at level 0, on Korthos, with no XP of any kind (not even a Bonded Destiny) and a new Epic Past Life Feat.

However, losing all the Epic XP is a serious drag. A game-breaking drag for many of us. So I would implement an in-game, role-playing solution: a new NPC (maybe a hill-giant shaman) that can take you on a spiritual journey to remember your past life. For a reasonable cost, you can remember one Epic Destiny: It will be restored as it was before you Epic Reincarnated and you receive an appropriate amount of Fate Points for the Epic Desitiny Levels in that Destiny. This can't be the Destiny that you traded for the Epic Past Life Feat. That one will have to be re-learned. By "reasonable cost" I'm thinking an item that can be earned with no more than 20 runs of an Epic Raid. Let's call it a Hard-Boiled Phoenix Egg. It has a tiny chance to drop in any chest in any epic content, a higher chest to drop in any chest that gives Tokens of the Twelve (or similiar chest) and an even higher chance to appear as a quest reward. Definitely appears on 20th completion of any epic raid. The trader may want this Hard-Boiled Phoenix Egg and some other stuff. Or it may be that the Egg should be easier to get. In any event, it can be tweaked to be as easy or hard as it should be. It can be available in the store. If it is unbound it can be found on the AH or ASAH and people will love trading it and farming it for trades.

I think this would respect the effort we've put in for the Epic XP while keeping it fun to re-earn the Destiny. It also means that we don't have to level a bunch of Destinies we don't need to travel over to the Destiny we do want. Just unlock the one we want with the Egg. A smart player will have that Egg ready when they hit level 20.

That my 2cp.

This is an interesting approach. Perhaps the devs could create a Spiritwalk chain centered on your Hill Giant Shaman. You choose an ED you wish to 'awaken' at the main dialog, and then the NPC puts you into a dream state. In the dream, you have a materially stripped-down version of yourself with stats to match a past life that complements the ED you chose. So if you are a caster seeking to learn about your fighter past life, you would run the chain as a fighter with a basic set of instance-only gear.

You may start the first spiritwalk doing something as mundane as fetching water, when you have an encounter that first reveals your potential destiny. Subsequent encounters would build on that, as though you are reliving a fast-forward version of a past life.

Hmm. The devs could even put Lockania to work as the NPC for this, since she already hints about a character's destiny.

[mons]

I would like to touch base in regards to Heroic TR and Epic TR. For those of us who have grinded out completionist or even moreso Tripletionists, I feel we would be penalized if Epic TR involved a reset back to level 1. The whole Heroic vs Epic TR should all be entirely separate.

If Heroic TR, reset to lvl 1 and no loss of ED. Available at lvl 20.

If Epic TR, reset to lvl 20 and I would be ok with loss of ED or any variation of it. Available at lvl 28.

Both Completionist feats (epic and heroic) are auto granted upon eligibility ie. FREE.

Completionists already did the grind and the time and should not have to TR back to lvl 1 for Epic TR.

Just my 2cp

[Vargouille]

Considering just how absurdly long it would take to actually max out your Fate Points, and the fact that most builds rely on specific lower level twists, it seems quite reasonable to offer players some method of advancing their twists besides pulling out the credit card.

Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.

[redspecter23]

Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.

I've seen a +1 version drop in a random chest, but I've not seen or heard of a +2 dropping anywhere, whether it be random loot or either of those raids. Maybe I missed a screenshot somewhere.

Edit: found the thread here

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/379267-Tomes-of-Fate-Where-do-they-drop-in-game

tracking drops and locations. I know it's a bit out of date, but there is no mention of +2 fate tomes dropping in game at all.

[Tscheuss]

I would like to touch base in regards to Heroic TR and Epic TR. For those of us who have grinded out completionist or even moreso Tripletionists, I feel we would be penalized if Epic TR involved a reset back to level 1. The whole Heroic vs Epic TR should all be entirely separate.

If Heroic TR, reset to lvl 1 and no loss of ED. Available at lvl 20.

If Epic TR, reset to lvl 20 and I would be ok with loss of ED or any variation of it. Available at lvl 28.

Both Completionist feats (epic and heroic) are auto granted upon eligibility ie. FREE.

Completionists already did the grind and the time and should not have to TR back to lvl 1 for Epic TR.

Just my 2cp


There will be 4 Iconic options with available PL's that stack X3. These also start at level 15. TR runs with these will get you up to 12 Iconic PL's and all (currently) 11 ED PL's without re-running any of the heroic classes. :D

Or this. ;)

[1Soulless1]

Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.


Yes at a even worse drop rate then CITW weapons and Heroic Commendations out of there.

I have seen more +5 upgrade tomes drop then Tomes of Fate.

[Eliyse]

Only sampled some of the messages here, so apologies if this covers old ground.
The basic problem is progression. If TR is set at L28, what happens when the level cap is lifted? Whatever system is designed now, it should be made with future expansion in mind. It's not as if pen and paper rules for epic didn't exist, nor other MMOs. So this suggestion about making L28 "magic" for character progression does not feel very well thought out.
Related to that - epic levels themselves. What is the point of them? Seriously - what was the design purpose behind them? How does an epic paladin advance differently from an epic barbarian? Or an epic wizard? All classes get the same advancement, with no class specific improvements. Even the epic level icon is just a blob. All the flavour for epic advancement is in the destiny system, not in the levels. This is where the true problem lies. The emphasis has been taken away from character level (or even from character class) and into destinies, so much so that who cares about cap being raised on class levels - they are now a penalty rather than a reward.
As a consequence, as levels and destinies were pretty much disconnected when epic content was delivered, to try to pin destinies back to levels (which is what this attempt appears to be to me) is just going to be painful to all concerned. Players (as can be seen from this board) and devs (just what will happen when you want to add more levels to 30, 33, 40, 50, beyond...) will really hate on this. That leaves the creativity people to earn their keep. I don't claim to be a creative myself, but here's my thoughts on where this could go now:
(a) forget about new levels entirely - the future is with destinies. Content difficulty does not need to scale any higher, as L25 would be cap. New content would need to come from imaginative use of scenarios, and the introduction of new PrEs for lower level content, and new destinies to match these PrEs at the high end. Bonus with this is that if it is done well, then all the old content can be kept and effectively "freshened" by the new approaches that the new PrEs bring to the table.
(b) don't mess with the destinies, but make the levels *worth* something. Give more feats more often. Make the feats interesting and powerful! Getting this to scale up may be challenging (the "who do we get to fight Superman *this* month" problem)
(c) scrap the epic "blobs" altogether - allow genuine classes to take the place, so that you *can* have a L25 Paladin, or a L25 Barbarian, or a multiclass L12/13 fighter(kensaiII)/rogue(acrobatII) - and give them "epicness" as part of their progression. Say, a paladin could open up L5 spells (and heal could be included amongst them). A barbarian's DR could still increase, and automatically get overwhelming crit (or somesuch) as examples. (Though scaling up casters further could be a challenge!)
Whatever mechanism is delivered, it needs to *reward* players for playing. Recently it feels (to me) there have been too many nerfs, and not enough giving back (e.g. you know about those poison and disease immunity abilities/items? Hah! Nearly worthless now. Timer and limit being added to FS Leap of Faith? Still costs the full 10sp though)
Remember that players play for fun and reward. Maybe the destinies system was overgenerous and something needs to be nerfed there (I don't have enough experience at that level to judge one way or the other on this), but this feels very very harsh.

[redspecter23]

Yes at a even worse drop rate then CITW weapons and Heroic Commendations out of there.

I have seen more +5 upgrade tomes drop then Tomes of Fate.

So you've actually seen +2 fate tomes drop there? Just looking for confirmation.

[maddmatt70]

I've seen a +1 version drop in a random chest, but I've not seen or heard of a +2 dropping anywhere, whether it be random loot or either of those raids. Maybe I missed a screenshot somewhere.

Edit: found the thread here

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/379267-Tomes-of-Fate-Where-do-they-drop-in-game

tracking drops and locations. I know it's a bit out of date, but there is no mention of +2 fate tomes dropping in game at all.

I pulled a +2 tome of fate out of the fall of truth raid. My character furiously ate it. I am not sure if that was on hard or elite difficulty.

[Delacroix21]

This thread has become a mess of rage posts and ideas of unnecessarily complicated systems when the real issues are being avoided and addressed.


Issue #1
Current TR system incentivises TR at 20, and ignoring epic levels

Issue #2
Many proposed epic TR ideas ideas simply suggest epic TR at 28 rather than 20. Once again no incentive to stay and play at cap.

Issue #3
Players were promised ED XP would remain untouched, you can't go back on that.


Solution #1
Level 20 TR remains as is, players may "bank" XP earned post level 20 is used (at a discounted rate) towards heroic levels. Staying at 28 to bank enough XP to skip 1-20 incentives play at level cap.

Solution #2
Epic destiny TR resets level to 20, rather than level 1. If someone wants to do a heroic TR right after they are free to do so. Levels 1-20 should have NOTHING to do with ED TR.

Solution #3
Performing an ED TR only burns the XP for the ED that is active. When player caps this they get 2 fate points instead of 1. Player also gets an extra. 4 points to spend in the destiny.



Epic TR uses the same heart of wood as heroic. Don't keep adding more things to buy in DDO store.

[redspecter23]

I pulled a +2 tome of fate out of the fall of truth raid. My character furiously ate it. I am not sure if that was on hard or elite difficulty.

Good to know.

There is something to be said for a sense of mystery around things like this, but there is also much to be gained by listing these sort of changes in release notes. When drop rates are very low, it's not so much a mystery as it is players simply having no clue they are there. A carrot isn't a carrot if players don't know it exists.

[maddmatt70]

Good to know.

There is something to be said for a sense of mystery around things like this, but there is also much to be gained by listing these sort of changes in release notes. When drop rates are very low, it's not so much a mystery as it is players simply having no clue they are there. A carrot isn't a carrot if players don't know it exists.

Well I have run the raid about 20 or so times on epic elite and 400 or so times on epic hard and I think that was the only one I have seen so it might as well not exist.

[goldmonk28]

As a longtime DDO and AD&D veteran the thing I'd like to see is to be able to use our alternate characters as Followers/Hirelings. Instead of Heystack and some of those other bums, it would be really awesome to build our own custom followers using our alts. Maybe we could designate a "main character" and the alts could be reincarnated into a "follower" of the Main Character and could be summoned to join the party just like a hireling. Their level could scale with the main character be be the go-to hireling for nearly all occassions.

As someone who regularly plays with my best friend and wife - we like to run groups with just the three of us and hirelings. Something like this would be really incredible and definitely give me a reason to use my alts for something other than pack mules.

Thanks.
Faxandu
Thelanis Server

[ForumAccess]

Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.

Well I have run the raid about 20 or so times on epic elite and 400 or so times on epic hard and I think that was the only one I have seen so it might as well not exist.
I only have a sample size of ~100 or so completions between the two raids, and most of these completions were very early on, but I have never seen one. Logged in tonight just to ask in the chat channels where people run these raids daily to find out if perhaps my experiences were just outside of the norm. Had two people mention having seen a Tome of Fate drop in the raids before. So either the drop rate is infinitesimally small as to be insignificant, or something is amok here.

You might want to check the implementation on this. I seem to remember that when the Harbinger of Madness chain was introduced there was some problem causing the mindfury symbiont to not actually drop when it was supposed to?

[Qhualor]

things like +2 tomes of fate are rare, just like when +4 tomes were rare at one time because there will always be the fallback reply that they do exist and we have options other than having to pay. they are rare intentionally for a time until the game grows and expands offering new highly sought after shinies, at which time the rare items eventually will have gradual higher drop rates and maybe more drop locations. this doesn't happen as long as there is a high profitable gain and can swap the gain to the next highly sought after rare item. pick a side on how you feel about this as good for Turbine for making a profit and investing some of it back into the many parts of the game thus making us grind and grind for that extremely valuable item supposedly exists but you heard from a friend of a friend of someones sisters cousin best friends aunt that thinks she pulled one, but the dog ate the screenie so no real proof.

[Charononus]

This thread has become a mess of rage posts and ideas of unnecessarily complicated systems when the real issues are being avoided and addressed.


Issue #1
Current TR system incentivises TR at 20, and ignoring epic levels
Not really, currently you can run up an ed, tr then run up another without loss of those ed xp's. People that want to tr do so for many reasons, lack of people running "end game" has more to do with the anemic end game where we went multiple viable epic packs to farm, multiple raids with endgame gear to motu which is used for leveling, druids deep which is ignored, high road which has a few good items and egh. Instead of multiple raids worth running we have 2 and raid timer bypasses that we can buy if we want to not sit there on the airship. Add more raids and good epic content and more people would play at cap. Lack of players at cap has nothing to do with tr.


Issue #2
Many proposed epic TR ideas ideas simply suggest epic TR at 28 rather than 20. Once again no incentive to stay and play at cap.
Once again the lack of staying at cap is from lack of things to do there. If there was more to do at cap there would be no difference from tr'ing back in update 13 before motu. Motu killed endgame by making there nothing to really do at cap.


Issue #3
Players were promised ED XP would remain untouched, you can't go back on that.

This x100000000000000


Solution #1
Level 20 TR remains as is, players may "bank" XP earned post level 20 is used (at a discounted rate) towards heroic levels. Staying at 28 to bank enough XP to skip 1-20 incentives play at level cap.

no not really, still wouldn't be anything there to do and even if there was would empty heroic levels leaving new players and trs in a wasteland with no one to play with. Banking xp and otto's stones hurt the game more than help it.


Solution #2
Epic destiny TR resets level to 20, rather than level 1. If someone wants to do a heroic TR right after they are free to do so. Levels 1-20 should have NOTHING to do with ED TR.

Might be nice but overall I have to say thats not really a big issue with the etr proposal. Starting at level 1 is not a big deal especially if they come thru and smooth the xp curve so that the last few heroic levels aren't such a grind.


Solution #3
Performing an ED TR only burns the XP for the ED that is active. When player caps this they get 2 fate points instead of 1. Player also gets an extra. 4 points to spend in the destiny.

This I can agree with even without the extra fate points and definately without the extra in destiny points.



Epic TR uses the same heart of wood as heroic. Don't keep adding more things to buy in DDO store.
As long as you can still turn in say 20 tokens or 20 whatever for a heart, and that epic hearts are the same price I think a different heart would be best. Something tells me using the same one has a higher risk of breaking something, but that's gut instinct not based on any known facts.

[Cetus]

Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.

lol


So where has it been during my last 50 million runs in there?

[1Soulless1]

So you've actually seen +2 fate tomes drop there? Just looking for confirmation.



No I have not seen any Tomes of Fate either +1 or +2's drop out of CITW.

I have seen two +5 upgrade tomes drop on Epic Normal during a loot weekend. I don't know if he had a loot jewel going also. It was the left side chests either chest one or two.

The other was again a loot weekend CITW EN again left side optional chests.

It was kind of nice that it was a Arti who pulled it and it was a +5 int upgrade. The other was a wizzy who pulled +5 con.


I use to ask people if they pulled a Tome of Fate if they would mind holding on for a second so I could screen cap it. But alas I have never had to.

The only time I have heard of a +2 ToF other then matt there was through the friend of a friend who totally saw someone pull it kind of deal. And yes I check out other peoples loots....I am nosy and what!? ;)

[Silverleafeon]

My new suggestion would be

Raising the level cap to 30 and leaving it there

Raising epic destinies to 10 and leaving them there

Making all heroic xp the same as first life xp

Making all epic xp levels cost 400 k each

Therefore the xp needed to get from level 1 to level 30
would be 1,900,000 +4,000,000 = 5,900,000
which would be similar to the 4,378,500 required for a
legend life since Epic XP is inflated over heroic XP

Design brand new passive past lives for every class and every iconic.
Label and flag these different that those currently available past lives.

Only have a single type of TRing, that of gaining level 30,
and TRing into a new heroic class or iconic. Iconics retain
their bonus of +15 levels.

When you do so you receive this brand new passive past life
that is obtainable 3X and stacks with everything in existence.

If a toon already has the old past lives they keep them,
but the old past lives are no longer available after the
creation of the new TR system along with the dramatic
shift in xp curves.


Also allow an Epic Passive Past life for whatever
active maxed epic destiny the toon was in at the
time of this new type of TRing. This past life
could stack once or three times.

Optional:
Remove all XP from that Epic Destiny when the
Epic Destiny past life is gained and reset it to zero.



Is this what the Devs are desiring, because this
thinks outside of the box?

Are you wanting us to play from heroic thru to level 30?

I am fairly confident you could level the level cap at 30
with this in place.

[Gremmlynn]

Hi.
Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
• Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
• Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
• Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
• Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
• And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.Option 2 looks like the most flexible solution as it works for pretty much everyone.

While I see where you seem to be coming from with the changes; making a base system that doesn't rely on grinding a lot of ED's that don't match one's current build. It really only works for those who are very involved in the game and very achievement orientated, basically players who would immediately epic TR on gaining the cap in order to achieve their planned build goals. Once all those goals are achieved, start actually playing the character.

For anyone who plays by shorter term goals, it really leaves them with fewer options. Either TR right away regardless of whether that is what they feel like doing it. TR when the mood hits them knowing that any work on twists they have done that life will be lost. Or just don't ever TR again in order to keep that work and remain viable in the tougher end game content.

Option 2 seems to work with any type of player by, basically, keeping ED advancement a separate system. Much like crafting levels are separate. This allows players to play the way they like without regard to how TRing in one system will effect their where they are in the others.

What this would mean to me personally. Option 2 would let me TR the 3 characters I currently have with, what is IMO, significant work done towards acquiring fate points (the only real reason I even touch most destinies with a particular build are to get fate points or be able to get to an ED I am actually interested in and I have a hard time defining what I am doing at these time as actually playing the game-which is the basic weakness with the whole ED system). It would also let me play any others at cap until I'm in the mood to TR them again. The system originally proposed would basically mean I never TR the first 3 and always stop playing the others until I am ready to TR them because anything I do with them after that would be lost if and when they do TR.

[Silverleafeon]

My new suggestion would be

Raising the level cap to 30 and leaving it there

Raising epic destinies to 10 and leaving them there

Making all heroic xp the same as first life xp

Making all epic xp levels cost 400 k each

Therefore the xp needed to get from level 1 to level 30
would be 1,900,000 +4,000,000 = 5,900,000
which would be similar to the 4,378,500 required for a
legend life since Epic XP is inflated over heroic XP

Design brand new passive past lives for every class and every iconic.
Label and flag these different that those currently available past lives.

Only have a single type of TRing, that of gaining level 30,
and TRing into a new heroic class or iconic. Iconics retain
their bonus of +15 levels.

When you do so you receive this brand new passive past life
that is obtainable 3X and stacks with everything in existence.

If a toon already has the old past lives they keep them,
but the old past lives are no longer available after the
creation of the new TR system along with the dramatic
shift in xp curves.


Also allow an Epic Passive Past life for whatever
active maxed epic destiny the toon was in at the
time of this new type of TRing. This past life
could stack once or three times.

Optional:
Remove all XP from that Epic Destiny when the
Epic Destiny past life is gained and reset it to zero.



Is this what the Devs are desiring, because this
thinks outside of the box?

Are you wanting us to play from heroic thru to level 30?

I am fairly confident you could level the level cap at 30
with this in place.

This is either very silly or very smart, I don't know which, lol...

[Silverleafeon]

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

Consider allow these Epic Destiny past life feats to be obtained stackable 3x as this system would work with it.

This allows for you to create the other 9 Iconics that we both know are coming someday.

[oradafu]

Option 2 looks like the most flexible solution as it works for pretty much everyone.

While I see where you seem to be coming from with the changes; making a base system that doesn't rely on grinding a lot of ED's that don't match one's current build. It really only works for those who are very involved in the game and very achievement orientated, basically players who would immediately epic TR on gaining the cap in order to achieve their planned build goals. Once all those goals are achieved, start actually playing the character.

For anyone who plays by shorter term goals, it really leaves them with fewer options. Either TR right away regardless of whether that is what they feel like doing it. TR when the mood hits them knowing that any work on twists they have done that life will be lost. Or just don't ever TR again in order to keep that work and remain viable in the tougher end game content.

Option 2 seems to work with any type of player by, basically, keeping ED advancement a separate system. Much like crafting levels are separate. This allows players to play the way they like without regard to how TRing in one system will effect their where they are in the others.

What this would mean to me personally. Option 2 would let me TR the 3 characters I currently have with, what is IMO, significant work done towards acquiring fate points (the only real reason I even touch most destinies with a particular build are to get fate points or be able to get to an ED I am actually interested in and I have a hard time defining what I am doing at these time as actually playing the game-which is the basic weakness with the whole ED system). It would also let me play any others at cap until I'm in the mood to TR them again. The system originally proposed would basically mean I never TR the first 3 and always stop playing the others until I am ready to TR them because anything I do with them after that would be lost if and when they do TR.

I agree with everything you wrote. I'd also add that Option 2 falls into the KISS principle while also keeping the original sales pitch that ED XP will not be removed.

I pretty much proposed Option 2 early on in this thread, although I had a variation of the Epic Advantage. If the Devs still want to keep/add the Epic Advantage to Option 2, when a player Epic TR, every bonded ED (or Epic Destiny past life, since the Devs seem to be moving away from the bonded ED phrase in Option 2) allows the player to skip one level in the heroic life. So after 4 Epic TRs with different EDs, the player can have the option to begin at level 4.

[Silverleafeon]

I agree with everything you wrote. I'd also add that Option 2 falls into the KISS principle while also keeping the original sales pitch that ED XP will not be removed.

+1

[Silverleafeon]

If the devs have not watched this yet, please do:

http://www.ddocast.com/2013/06/ddocast-289/

[GermanicusMaximus]

Check out DDOracle for server traffic since this announcement. I don't think this announcement has had much of an impact on the current game environment. And quarterly, it looks like server traffic is actually up a notch over the last three months. I wouldn't cry doom and gloom over a few anecdotal incidents.

I just came across this and had to laugh. The DDOracle traffic report has not been updated since April 27, 2013. The stats are a little stale. It might have helped if you checked your source before citing it. :D

[GermanicusMaximus]

Why not just have us lose all exp in JUST the ED we have primary at moment of epic TR... and then increase the xp needed to cap that destiny to 3 million? Leave all other EDs alone. Even okay to lose the 5 ranks of fate points from that ONE ED as well.


OK, this is scary when I start to agree with Thrudh! 3 million XP? Can we keep it at 1.98 million XP? Ah! That's better!

[Silverleafeon]

I support “Player’s Choice Design for TR” as being a choice that should be seriously considered.

http://www.ddocast.com/2013/06/ddocast-289/#PCDTR


Some of my proposals were similar.

I find it seriously better than Option #1.

[Silverleafeon]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418846-Player-s-Choice-Design-Support-a-better-system-for-Epic-Destiny-True-Reincarnation

[Silverleafeon]

I find it seriously better than Option #1.

Anything is better than proposal #1.

Oh dear I am debating with myself....wanders off....

[sir_smacks_alot]

As has always been the case with the TR system it is way too much grind. A lot of people who would love to have some past lives, or even completionist don't because of how much grind it is. What I mean by that is I can't even make an estimation on how many times I have heard people say they would Tr but don't because of how much xp is needed for extra lives. As I see this ihurts the game in several ways.

1) People who want the past lives, but cant stand the thought of having to run quests over and over to get through a life never TR, and eventually get bored playing end game and stop playing as much

2) The newer players get left out of groups, a lot because of multi-life players not wanting to take newer player from fear of being slowed down or losing xp due to deaths.

3) less people to group with at lower levels because a large portion of people don't want the grind of increased xp requirements

4) new players who find the occasional veteran on a legend life usually cant run with them for very long because of the experience difference needed between the 2.

5) the only content being run a lot of the time is the high xp/min grindable quests a lot of the time.

6) the fun factor being taken out of the TR system and it being more of a carefully planned grind.

I honestly believe that if the experience penalties for TR were removed completely and there was a way to get epic destinies back without the actual "grind" there would be a lot less frustration and anger in this thread.

[Pandir]

Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.

Sorry but i don't let that count there should be a workable way to get the fate points, the extreme rare drops in the raids are imho just a thin veil so one can say the tomes actually drop in game.

[Deadlock]

As has always been the case with the TR system it is way too much grind. A lot of people who would love to have some past lives, or even completionist don't because of how much grind it is. What I mean by that is I can't even make an estimation on how many times I have heard people say they would Tr but don't because of how much xp is needed for extra lives. As I see this ihurts the game in several ways.

Unfortunately, this is a myth.

Grind is optional. Farming high XP/min quests is most definitely the most time-efficient way of gaining XP, but this doesn't suit everyone. Luckily you don't need to do this.

To prove this point, for my 40th life, we decided to:
1. do every quest once and once only ... you have no idea how much pain this caused me to leave Shadow Crypt after only one run, but them's the rules
2. do challenges just once to try and get as many stars as possible and the first time XP bonusses that come with them - we skipped kobold island challenges completely because they're a pain without a full party of arcanes to keep the crystals repaired
3. tag each explorer for each wilderness area on a single run, check for rares but not reset and repeat to try and get them all, and just pick up whatever slayers we got in the process
4. not drink any XP pots, not even the ones you get from House Cannith challenges or turning in Eberron Dragonshards

Now both myself and my regular TR buddy have the Greater Learning Tome from the MotU expansion. I'm a VIP, but he isn't so I get the extra 10% XP from that, but he doesn't. As a VIP I get all of the volumes in the Monster Manual but he's missing the latest one I think. So I did pick up more XP from the Monster Manual in the process than he did.

The end result was that we both reached 20 without having to repeat a single quest, just by doing an Elite Streak. We ended up banking levels and ended up having to level to avoid wasting XP, which unfortunately meant we didn't get the Elite Streak bonus for those quests. We skipped the Lords of Dust chain completely and just came back to do it on Epic because the Epic XP is so good. Probably half of the raids we didnt' have a party at-level for so we skipped those too. It's definitely not the fastest life I've ever done, but we proved it's doable. Also, when you don't have an XP Pot burning away, you're much more relaxed about taking your time through the quests, so I'm confident a semi-capable party of 3rd lifers could maintain their elite streak at least until level 18.

So I'm afraid grind is 100% optional. You might be missing an adventure pack but that's something you can fix.

[Flavilandile]

Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.

Oh yeah, with a drop rate so low...

According to a little bird there's 0,0005% to get a Tome of Fate ( +1 or +2 ) from the raid chest in FoT. ( in EE )
Drop rates in CiTW are lower than that.

So it is not an option...

[Deadlock]

Raising the level cap to 30 and leaving it there

I wouldn't set a ceiling just because it's a round number. 28 is fine and allows the option further down the line to increase it.


Raising epic destinies to 10 and leaving them there

That means creating another 5x4x11, so up to 220 more ED enhancements? Why would we want to create that amount of additional work for the development team on top of the work that's just been done, or is currently being done, to the new enhancements? I'd rather see them direct that effort into making sure that every class has 3 worthwhile prestige trees to choose from.


Making all heroic xp the same as first life xp

Absolutely no need. 1st and 2nd life characters get a discount, 3rd life onwards sets the standard. Take an average-ish, or slightly above average developer-only party through every quest on hard and time them. If they got less than 1k/min then increase the XP for that quest to be 1k/min on hard, 750k per minute on normal and 1.5k per minute on elite. You've now made it easier for people to level, and they can add XP pots, Tomes of Learning, VIP bonusses and Elite Streaks into the mix. That and whatever time it takes a developer party, veterans could the quest in half their time.


Making all epic xp levels cost 400 k each

Epic levels cost 300k each right now. At the moment, that cost increases by 150k per level. I've speculated elsewhere that redoing the Epic XP curve would be as simple as reducing this increase to 75k and you have a new level 28 cap at 4.5mil which retain the idea of subsequent levels costing more.


Design brand new passive past lives for every class and every iconic. Label and flag these different that those currently available past lives.

Why reinvent the wheel for existing classes?


Only have a single type of TRing, that of gaining level 30, and TRing into a new heroic class or iconic. Iconics retain their bonus of +15 levels.

Definitely not. Keep it simple. Keep the choice there for players. Keep Heroic TR as it is without touching ED XP, and add the Epic TR option at 28.


If a toon already has the old past lives they keep them, but the old past lives are no longer available after the creation of the new TR system along with the dramatic shift in xp curves.

Are you seriously suggesting that we now need to do another 39 lives to get these new past life feats in addition the the old ones we got.


Also allow an Epic Passive Past life for whatever active maxed epic destiny the toon was in at the time of this new type of TRing. This past life could stack once or three times.

The problem here, is that if an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat is going to be worth having, then it has to have a degree to power to it. Having this up to 3 times would then make it overpowered. Easier to just earn it once and make it worth having.


Is this what the Devs are desiring, because this thinks outside of the box?

Back in the box with you!


Are you wanting us to play from heroic thru to level 30?

We are better off right now with the division of the Heroic and Epic levels, it works well and it gives a nod to D&D Lore. It gives Turbine two different channels to develop storylines in, in two different realms. Absolutely no way we should force players to go to 28 or 30 before they TR. If we could experience every class and gain Completionist at 20, then why shouldn't new players have this option?

That's my 2 astral shards worth. Lets's not create any additional work for the new Epic TR proposals and just keep things simple and easy to deliver. I'd rather see them make sure that every class has at least 3 worthwhile prestige trees, and that they add new Epic Destinies for Cleric and Artificer to give us the full 13. I'd even like them to add Epic Destinies for the new 4 Iconic classes, but again that's further down the road. Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here.

[Lauf]

After reading through it, I support “Player’s Choice Design for TR” as a choice that should be seriously considered.

http://www.ddocast.com/2013/06/ddocast-289/#PCDTR

[Tscheuss]

Unfortunately, this is a myth.

Grind is optional. Farming high XP/min quests is most definitely the most time-efficient way of gaining XP, but this doesn't suit everyone. Luckily you don't need to do this.

To prove this point, for my 40th life, we decided to:
1. do every quest once and once only ... you have no idea how much pain this caused me to leave Shadow Crypt after only one run, but them's the rules
2. do challenges just once to try and get as many stars as possible and the first time XP bonusses that come with them - we skipped kobold island challenges completely because they're a pain without a full party of arcanes to keep the crystals repaired
3. tag each explorer for each wilderness area on a single run, check for rares but not reset and repeat to try and get them all, and just pick up whatever slayers we got in the process
4. not drink any XP pots, not even the ones you get from House Cannith challenges or turning in Eberron Dragonshards

Now both myself and my regular TR buddy have the Greater Learning Tome from the MotU expansion. I'm a VIP, but he isn't so I get the extra 10% XP from that, but he doesn't. As a VIP I get all of the volumes in the Monster Manual but he's missing the latest one I think. So I did pick up more XP from the Monster Manual in the process than he did.

The end result was that we both reached 20 without having to repeat a single quest, just by doing an Elite Streak. We ended up banking levels and ended up having to level to avoid wasting XP, which unfortunately meant we didn't get the Elite Streak bonus for those quests. We skipped the Lords of Dust chain completely and just came back to do it on Epic because the Epic XP is so good. Probably half of the raids we didnt' have a party at-level for so we skipped those too. It's definitely not the fastest life I've ever done, but we proved it's doable. Also, when you don't have an XP Pot burning away, you're much more relaxed about taking your time through the quests, so I'm confident a semi-capable party of 3rd lifers could maintain their elite streak at least until level 18.

So I'm afraid grind is 100% optional. You might be missing an adventure pack but that's something you can fix.

Nicely said, and nicely done. :D

[Tscheuss]

Silver, I agree with much of what you say, but this time I have to agree with Deadlock.

Back in the box. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-forum/rotfl.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[Silverleafeon]

Silver, I agree with much of what you say, but this time I have to agree with Deadlock.

Back in the box. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-forum/rotfl.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Lol, I was sleepy....yawn...

[CorinBrightbane]

If the devs have not watched this yet, please do:

http://www.ddocast.com/2013/06/ddocast-289/

This

[sir_smacks_alot]

Unfortunately, this is a myth.

Grind is optional. Farming high XP/min quests is most definitely the most time-efficient way of gaining XP, but this doesn't suit everyone. Luckily you don't need to do this.

To prove this point, for my 40th life, we decided to:
1. do every quest once and once only ... you have no idea how much pain this caused me to leave Shadow Crypt after only one run, but them's the rules
2. do challenges just once to try and get as many stars as possible and the first time XP bonusses that come with them - we skipped kobold island challenges completely because they're a pain without a full party of arcanes to keep the crystals repaired
3. tag each explorer for each wilderness area on a single run, check for rares but not reset and repeat to try and get them all, and just pick up whatever slayers we got in the process
4. not drink any XP pots, not even the ones you get from House Cannith challenges or turning in Eberron Dragonshards

Now both myself and my regular TR buddy have the Greater Learning Tome from the MotU expansion. I'm a VIP, but he isn't so I get the extra 10% XP from that, but he doesn't. As a VIP I get all of the volumes in the Monster Manual but he's missing the latest one I think. So I did pick up more XP from the Monster Manual in the process than he did.

The end result was that we both reached 20 without having to repeat a single quest, just by doing an Elite Streak. We ended up banking levels and ended up having to level to avoid wasting XP, which unfortunately meant we didn't get the Elite Streak bonus for those quests. We skipped the Lords of Dust chain completely and just came back to do it on Epic because the Epic XP is so good. Probably half of the raids we didnt' have a party at-level for so we skipped those too. It's definitely not the fastest life I've ever done, but we proved it's doable. Also, when you don't have an XP Pot burning away, you're much more relaxed about taking your time through the quests, so I'm confident a semi-capable party of 3rd lifers could maintain their elite streak at least until level 18.

So I'm afraid grind is 100% optional. You might be missing an adventure pack but that's something you can fix.

I actually run every single quest every life seriously. I don't do my lives that fast so I can get the favor also. Honestly I have forgotten how many lives I have done at this point and don't care to try and count. Grinding is not really even optional in doing that, I don't know what you were doing but with a bravery bonus on every quest I am usually at level 18 by the time I finish them all. The exception being the few raids I can never get a group for. How you got to 20 with no repeats im not exactly sure seeing as I do it every life and never once has it equaled a full legend life. that is all beside the point anyway. Having to do every single quest even the ones you tried and don't like can be considered grind also for sure and by most people is considered a grind. Having the ability to choose to do some quests and skip the ones you don't like is actually fun and doesn't require planning or anything of that type also promotes a more healthy grouping system since everyone isn't worried about how they will get that last bit of xp needed for this level or that one. Any way you go about it the requirements for legend lives were a joke to begin with as it promotes a lot of farming and exclusion of newer people from group. Grinding, having to do every single little thing you can to get what you need, having to do the things you don't actually enjoy all bad for game in general. A system that literally huge portions of the gaming community refuse to use because of said grind also bad for the game. a sensible amount of the treadmill effect will keep people busy and promote a much healthier gaming environment while giving more people access to the systems implemented. I know all of it is optional and I have done many many lives, but people who aren't power gamers should not feel intimidated by the mechanics of the game. Nor should anything require so much time that it feels more like work than play when it is a GAME. Power gamers like me and probably a lot of the forumites are actually the minority in the game and I for one would like to get to run with new people or someone other than the same old people I see every life all the time.

[Deadlock]

I actually run every single quest every life seriously. I don't do my lives that fast so I can get the favor also. Honestly I have forgotten how many lives I have done at this point and don't care to try and count. Grinding is not really even optional in doing that, I don't know what you were doing but with a bravery bonus on every quest I am usually at level 18 by the time I finish them all.The exception being the few raids I can never get a group for. How you got to 20 with no repeats im not exactly sure seeing as I do it every life and never once has it equaled a full legend life.

See above.


Having to do every single quest even the ones you tried and don't like can be considered grind also for sure and by most people is considered a grind. Having the ability to choose to do some quests and skip the ones you don't like is actually fun and doesn't require planning or anything of that type also promotes a more healthy grouping system since everyone isn't worried about how they will get that last bit of xp needed for this level or that one.

We've repeatedly asked for some of the crappy XP/Min quests to be revised to address this issue, see above:
Absolutely no need. 1st and 2nd life characters get a discount, 3rd life onwards sets the standard. Take an average-ish, or slightly above average developer-only party through every quest on hard and time them. If they got less than 1k/min then increase the XP for that quest to be 1k/min on hard, 750k per minute on normal and 1.5k per minute on elite. You've now made it easier for people to level, and they can add XP pots, Tomes of Learning, VIP bonusses and Elite Streaks into the mix. That and whatever time it takes a developer party, veterans could the quest in half their time.


Any way you go about it the requirements for legend lives were a joke to begin with as it promotes a lot of farming and exclusion of newer people from group.

It's really not. When you have people stoning from 8 to 18 and doing a legend life in a weekend, or not actually skipping content and just doing a life in a week like I do, then it's not a joke. You can concentrate your efforts and do it quickly or take your time and do it over a few weeks. Nothing wrong with that.


Power gamers like me and probably a lot of the forumites are actually the minority in the game and I for one would like to get to run with new people or someone other than the same old people I see every life all the time.

The people that I would consider power gamers are all happy with the XP requirements for a Legend life. A fast and efficient XP train can still be great fun, enjoyable and rewarding. If you don't believe me, come join one of my Shadow Crypt farms. It'll have to be on an alt though, my main's done with TRing until U20 :)

[Manasdirge]

Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.

never seen one,40 times in both CITW and FOT,no such tomes ever dropped from my group,rarer than +5 upgrades if u ask me(at least i've seen them).

[Tscheuss]

As rare as Lunar atmosphere?

[Silverleafeon]

Ok something useful http://ddowiki.com/page/Exalted_Angel

I started seeing some suggestions for the Epic Destiny Past Life Auto Grant and frankly
they are kind of poorly thought out.

I do know about angel builds, so I can contribute there.

Angels builds at the moment suffer from two things.
Lack of Light SLA and terrible cooldown of Reborn in light.

So, a solid Angel Past Life Auto Grant would address one or both of these two issues.

The cooldown on Reborn in Light is the most complained about epic destiny cooldown;
it is 30 minutes and persists after you leave a quest.

Reducing the cooldown to 10 minutes would be much better without being broken.
In fact many would insist that it need to be readjusted anyway.

Instead of adding more Light SLA, if the cooldown of Avenging Light (which is easily
twistable) could be reduced to the range of 1 to 2 seconds cooldown instead of 3 seconds,
that would greatly help reduced hot key madness and provide a solid SLA for Divines.

The lack of Light SLA (nimbus of light does not even increment the endless aura/
reborn in light counters) makes it near impossible to use this epic destiny efficiently
with a cleric who lack the archon of a favored soul and the Silver Flame Past Life SLA.

[Gremmlynn]

Your lack of desire to coordinate a heroic class with a desired ED in no way invalidates my assertion.

However, it does serve to make my point:


Those who grind through an "off" destiny are not forced to do so; they choose to do so.I don't see how choosing to grind through 20 heroic levels in a class one may not have any interest in simply to be in a class that is more likely to be able to take advantage of whatever destiny is next in line on the map is in any way superior to just grinding out the destiny in the class one is already playing. Having another option that is just as bad or worse in no way makes a bad situation somehow good.

That's like saying those that have 3 toes cut off are not forced to do so, they choose to do so rather than simply having the whole leg amputated.