Epic Level & Iconic TR

[Coyopa]

5+ months is pretty far in advanced for any mmo. (November for U20, which they did not commit to, could be later)

And they said they were PLANNING on trying to implement it later this year. It's not a for real thing until it's and update on lammania.

So, maybe you should get your facts straight too.

I'm not a fan of Heroic TR resetting ED XP, and I've posted my feedback and possible solutions, but i also don't expect them to completely rework their ideas in a day. Instead, I now wait, and if i haven't seen any proposed changes to the system by this time next week, I'll post my thoughts again, in general or suggestions/ideas.

Sorry, but I disagree. Five months for something that is going to take the amount of work, code, and testing to even get close to working correctly is not a very long time at all. If you were going to tell me that 5 months is pretty far in advance for something like an update to a web application, I would agree. However, the frequency and recurrence of bugs in their product indicates some pretty good spaghetti code on their end.

[Teh_Troll]

Sounds similar (with a twist) to what many people (myself included) have already posted.

This is more the line of thinking that seems to make sense to most players. At least the ones that are posting in the thread.

Assuming ED XP is NOT reset with heroic TR (this is a line in the sand that we cannot concede) what I think would work for Epic TR is being allowed to keep your Fate points and keep the abilities of a "bonded" ED active while leveling up other EDs. Kinda like what we were able to do with Shears but without the other bugs.

All previously un-locked Spheres need to remain unlocked, that way you can earn back your low-hanging fruit twists in a non-painful manner.

That would be acceptable to me, and probably a lot of fun.

I also am disappointed that a 4th twist isn't available. A 2/1/1/1 set of twists would be possible and nice for those who currently have max fate-points.

[Silverleafeon]

This.

If we can keep all our fate points, AND they get rid of the ED map (where you have to have 3-4 ranks in an useless destiny to unlock a destiny you do want), then I might be for this.

This is a chance to fix the ED system... I don't mind losing all the grind I've already done if I can keep the fate points, and my twist slots and can level in any ED I want. Because then I can just relevel the 3-5 EDs I'm interested in (and have fun playing while doing it) instead of wasting time getting magister ranks on my fighter to unlock twists...

If we have to re-grind the fate points again, wasting time AGAIN in EDs that suck for our character, then I agree the proposed system is terrible.
Agreed.
More fate points is good.
More twists is good.
Not having to reunlock my map is good.
For this you can take my ed xp if you allow everyone the choice to keep theirs if they want.


Epic TRing granting a class past life feat is and going back to level 1 is awful for me.
I don't want to do it for an Epic Destiny Past Life.
Fawngate has all the past life feats already.

[Silverleafeon]

I also am disappointed that a 4th twist isn't available. A 2/1/1/1 set of twists would be possible and nice for those who currently have max fate-points.

Indeed, twists are a wildly popular part of the game, expand upon them please.

[Silverleafeon]

.. but it costs 3 million instead of 1.9 million......
Higher ed xp costs for a "legend" ed?
No thank you.

[Deadlock]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

What would be helpful is to gather the concensus from the now 26 pages of replies - ignore completely all the plebs who just post that Turbine as a company hate their players, hate the game, etc etc - and come back with confirmation after an internal meeting to clarify just a few things:
(1) That Heroic TRing will not affect ED XP in any way
(2) That Epic TRing is designed to be an optional path for players and that future content will not be scaled on the assumption of Epic Destiny Past Lives
(3) That there will be further discussions on what the Epic Advantage will be for players who already have their ED's capped, and that some one-time-only-boon is being considered
(4) That you will be free to Epic TR any time that you are at level cap (level 28) whether or not you have an unbonded destiny available, but you will only gain an ED Past Life Feat and have your ED XP reset, if you have an unbonded destiny active *
(5) That the Heroic XP curve will not be affected
(6) That Heroic XP for individual quests will be revised to provide additional viable levelling paths
(7) That the ED XP curve will not be affected
(8) That the Epic XP curve is being reduced, and provide specific details of the new proposal (with the caveat that it is subject to change)

I think that this would address the majority of the concerns.

* The reason for this is that you can only Epic TR into an Iconic, and with 3 Past Life Feats on 4 Iconics, that means 12 Iconic Past Life Feats, when you only have 11 Epic Destinies. Which would present a problem as follows:
Life 1 - 20 Wizard/8 Epic, Magister ED -> Epic TR
Life 2 - 20 Sorcerer/8 Epic, Draconic ED -> Epic TR
Life 3 - 20 Bladeforged/8 Epic, Fatesinger ED -> Epic TR
Life 4 - 20 Bladeforged/8 Epic, Shadowdancer ED -> Epic TR
Life 5 - 20 Bladeforged/8 Epic, Legendary Dreadnought ED -> Epic TR
Life 6 - 20 Purple Dragon Knight/8 Epic, Shiradi ED -> Epic TR
Life 7 - 20 Purple Dragon Knight/8 Epic, Fury of the Wild ED -> Epic TR
Life 8 - 20 Purple Dragon Knight/8 Epic, Primal Avatar ED -> Epic TR
Life 9 - 20 Shadar-Kai/8 Epic, Grandmaster of Flowers ED -> Epic TR
Life 10 - 20 Shadar-Kai/8 Epic, Unyielding Sentinel ED -> Epic TR
Life 11 - 20 Shadar-Kai/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> Epic TR
Life 12 - 20 Morninglord/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> ....... oops, can't Epic TR again because we've not more unbonded ED's

[PermaBanned]

Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation.

So 5 & 1/2 months or less is "far in advance." Good to know, because we seem to hate this idea even more than what your doing to the enhancements. How well you rework those (enhancements) in response to player concerns and feedback should be an excellent litmus test for what kind of reworking this new TR system is likely to receive.

Are you stomping on our foot (TR system) so we'll forget the pain in our hand (enhancements)?

[Silverleafeon]

back the game

oh in party chat:

wats the deal with epic destiny TR? we waste our time lvling them all up or what

[cdbd3rd]

Wonders which vendors sell pitchforks?

http://ddowiki.com/index.php?search=pitchforks&go=Go&title=Special%3ASearch

Wander off to search the DDO store for Pitchforks...


That would be the Mathom Society vendor. ;)

http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Item%3APitchfork

The Hobbits have that market cornered.

[Systern]

So, some more questions:

Iconics will have their own past life feats. Are these absolute "If you are an iconic you end up with the Iconic past life feat?". Presently, you can "accept training" on the bladeforged path and get the XP but don't need to autolevel. If I make a bladeforged, get 2 levels of paladin, and take 13 sorc after, will I end up with bladeforged paladin PL, or Sorc (per the code that determines PL attainment. It's my dominant class)? If Sorc, with 5 bonded destinies, isn't that instant completionist? Just takes a stack of tokens or lots of TP to buy a heart, and every 3 days you can make another Iconic class you never play and get to completionist. Quite the Epic Advantage.

To epic TR you need level 28 and an unbonded past life. So no stacking Destiny past lives because you can't rebond an already bonded destiny.

"Readjusting the curve" doesn't indicate if you plan on adjusting the start and end points of the arc or just the slope. :)

Epic Advantage isn't an advantage if you're not already a completionist. Last year, our open to all, friendly, Korthos-Army-ish guild flat out refused to take level 16 characters on guild raids because people were stoning characters they didn't know how to play. Making that the way of life and calling it an "advantage" really isn't. Since all EDs are proposed to transfer into ranks, who says the ranks need to be contiguous (except for ease of coding)? What if the advantage translated into something like being granted Rank 1, 6, 11, 16, 21 instead of Ranks 1-5?

Presently, My Completionist-to-be is paired up with my Girlfriend. I have more time to play than she does, and so what has been status-quo is that at epic levels I still get to play around, get some destiny xp, enjoy my character, and it doesn't impact us playing together at epic levels. Now, the next time we TR I'm going to be very far ahead of her. This advantage destroys my duo. It's already bad enough that she's VIP and I'm not so she gains at a faster rate. :(

I agree with the sentiment that's been rebutted to Piloto. The spirit of reincarnating has been giving up the current to apply to the next. The proposed ETR is giving up everything-but-the-current to apply to the next.

Repetition penalties still need to go on a ransack timer :P


I'm a little worried about the design trend lately... Otto's stones, Epic Advantage, and so forth. It's like you're designing ways for us not to play your game instead of trying to design ways to make the game more fun and engaging. We already joke that you don't PLAY your game (just look at proposed Bard and Cleric enhancement pass), but we're beginning to think you don't even LIKE it. "What would make this game better? Another way not to have to play it."

[Teh_Troll]

back the game

oh in party chat:

wats the deal with epic destiny TR? we waste our time lvling them all up or what

We had the same conversation last night.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

I am a Completionist with all Epic Destanies maxed, I plan on going Triple Heroic Completionist. As such the xp loss will not hurt me as much as the others. Please Turbine listen to the community.


1. Please let us keep our twist of fate points when we do any Tr. Granted it will hurt to lose all my capped epic destany xp, eventually I will get it back. This would lessen the pain.

2.If we have unlocked a destany, let it remain unlocked, even IF we still lose the xp.

3.I bought the +2 fate point tome, if they are lost do I get my TP back?

4.If we buy the pre-order on the expainsion- and own the Iconics- let us when we Tr into an Iconic get the equipment that they would get if they were a new iconic, or just make the iconic equipment be BTA not BTC.

5.It would also be nice to have the completionist feat and epic completionist feat granted like a class feat instead of bought, once you meet the prereqs for them.

Overall I do like the changes, they just need some adjustments.

[Deadlock]

Agreed.
More fate points is good.
More twists is good.
Not having to reunlock my map is good.
For this you can take my ed xp if you allow everyone the choice to keep theirs if they want.


Epic TRing granting a class past life feat is and going back to level 1 is awful for me.
I don't want to do it for an Epic Destiny Past Life.
Fawngate has all the past life feats already.

Isn't that really like asking them to take away all of the Epic Destiny XP, but still allow you the benefits from the Epic Destiny XP that you previously gained? So you keep your Fate Points and your entire map remains unlocked?

If it's a generic addition that anyone can at any time cap all of their Destinies and the entire map Destiny Map will remain unlocked and available, then fair enough.

But unlocking the spheres again across 11 Epic TR's won't be that much of a pain to do. There's a fairly strong chance that you'll end up doing 12 Iconic lives for the Iconic Past Life feats, so that will unlock the whole thing for you anyway.

I do agree there should be some sort of one-time benefit when this goes live for those of us that already have all ED's capped, I'm just not convinced that it should be uber powerful.

[Darkrok]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

This all reminds me of the level of bad choices and the uproar around the inclusion of raid loot in Cannith crafting. As in that case the solution was equally simple - don't do it. There's a lot to like in the new TR'ing, both epic and heroic. In this case all that is required is to give people the choice to keep their ED xp on heroic TR'ing. The epic end of things...that's certainly negotiable either way.

While I don't like the idea that someone grinding out 11 ED's gets penalized by proxy in the Epic TR system the fact is that the Epic TR system is new. People have not made character decisions based on its mechanics because it didn't exist.

But on the heroic TR end - people have made character decisions based on the mechanics for the existing heroic TR system. To change that system now in such a punitive fashion is unfair and is every bit as bad a decision as raid loot in Cannith crafting. I sincerely hope that Turbine realizes that and backs off from this decision as quickly as they backed off from that one.

[Towrn]

Assuming ED XP is NOT reset with heroic TR (this is a line in the sand that we cannot concede) what I think would work for Epic TR is being allowed to keep your Fate points and keep the abilities of a "bonded" ED active while leveling up other EDs. Kinda like what we were able to do with Shears but without the other bugs.

All previously un-locked Spheres need to remain unlocked, that way you can earn back your low-hanging fruit twists in a non-painful manner.

That would be acceptable to me, and probably a lot of fun.

I also am disappointed that a 4th twist isn't available. A 2/1/1/1 set of twists would be possible and nice for those who currently have max fate-points.


Teh, this is part of a post that I posted earlier. I think we're saying the same basic thing, correct?




The idea that seems to make the most sense to me, so far, is this:

Player X is lvl 28 and has all ED's fully maxed out.
Player X Epic Trs with Fury of the Wild ED active.
Player X becomes lvl 1 (not 100% I am reading the ED ranks transferring to Heroic ranks correctly)
Player X has Fury of the Wild exp reset to 0 and the other 10 ED's exp remain unchanged.
Player X now benefits from the Fury of the Wild Epic Past Life but has to re-level the Fury of the Wild ED after re-leveling to 20.

In addition, since Player X is not losing all exp in all EDs, Player X only loses the 1-2 Fate points from losing the 5 levels of Fury of the Wild.

[Urjak]

TL;DR. (only read around a dozen comments plus all dev comments ofc)

So far, at least for me, the text doesn't seem entirely clear ...

I hope that it is meant the following way: (and if not please change to mean the following:)

Heroic TR:

Completely unchanged
No additional bonuses
No loss in EDs or whatever
Also no easing on the XP curve
Only need to be lvl 20 + have a True Heart
Basically: Everything stays the same

Epic TR:

Loose all ED XP
Gain lots of XP to start TRing from a higher level
XP curve is flattened (to further speed up leveling)
Not only gain the normal class based past live feat, but also an ED based feat
Per ETR you can "save" one ED ... aka: 1. ETR: save one destiny, 2nd ETR save two destinies and so on, ...
Keep your already acquired Fate Points (but ofc only get additional ones if you max out more destinies than you already had)
Need to be level 28
Need to have at least one destiny maxed out

Iconic TR:

whatever don't care atm (though that might change, when more info on shadar-kai comes out^^) ...
but so far it sounds to me as if it is basically the same as a normal heroic TR, BUT if you TR out of an iconic, you not only get a class based past live feat, but also an iconic based one. If you ITR into an iconic you start at level 15 ...

dev clarification would be more than welcome :)

[Darkrok]

TL;DR. (only read around a dozen comments plus all dev comments ofc)

So far, at least for me, the text doesn't seem entirely clear ...

I hope that it is meant the following way: (and if not please change to mean the following:)

Heroic TR:

Completely unchanged
No additional bonuses
No loss in EDs or whatever
Also no easing on the XP curve
Only need to be lvl 20 + have a True Heart
Basically: Everything stays the same

That's not what they meant and that's why people are so up in arms. Heroic TR'ing is planned to remove all unbonded Epic Destiny XP and no Epic Destiny XP is bonded unless you do an Epic TR first. So a maxed out ED toon with no bonded ED's would get to start their next heroic TR life at level 11 or 12 (not completely clear on that point) but would be reset to 0xp in all epic destinies. That's the plan at this point at least.

[AlmGhandi]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

Update 20 is not far in advance!

When all else fails send in the community guys!

[Atremus]

Please figure out a proposal that will not punish those with massive ED XP. This is the only concern in all of the presentation. I am very happy to be able to see this far into the future of DDO. Now we just need to be part of the process of compromise so that we all remain happy.

[SisAmethyst]

I think the main sticking point here is for the people that went ahead and (using the current system as designed) maxed out all of their epic destinies.

We (I'll include myself in this group) did this, by some horrendously tedious xp grinding, knowing that once we put the time and effort into doing it, we'd never have to do it again. 16.5 million xp, at a minimum. It sucked.

We put up with lousy destinies for the character we were playing (My sorc really gets nothing out of shadowdancer. Or dreadnought. Or a large variety of other epic destinies), so that we could get them done, and with the system in place, we'd never have to go back to them.

Or grinded them directly after an TR back to level 25 to have them done while on a life that could make use of them. Especially under consideration that the final ED is probably directly opposite to the ED one has to start with and first has to be unlocked.


...

For new characters going forward, no problem. I can see that the system will be much easier and less grindy.

I'd suggest some type of token system when the update hits, that will serve as a one time unlock for each of the destinies that have already been done. So someone with 11 destinies at level five, would have 11 tokens that they could use after reincarnating, to preserve the time and effort that has already been done. Make em a min level 20, and do it for existing characters a week or two before the update hits. Or a month or two. But something.

Indeed, for new players or players which just reached level 20 with none or only one active ED the new system will be nice, less grindy and a welcoming addition. I really like what I read from Glin in this regard!

The token system would be an interesting option, to transit the new and the old. Also it would give us a choice right now to grind it out now, or later and probably easier without loosing what we accomplished ...

PS: Just wondering, not long ago there was a bug that let players loose their ED on reincarnation. Turbine already got feedback how well not this was received then... and now this is suddenly all by design...

[serenityangel]

Freaking out over a PROPOSED change that is probably a year out, and for one where the dev has actually requested feedback on the proposal (basically doing what everyone on the forums keeps asking for - requesting player feedback), is the definition of premature.

If you are making a completionist build, unless you TR life is only 1 week long and you constantly at it.. you need to make long term plans. Many players don't have a whole lot of faith in the developers about their concerns so that is why they are especially loud on the issue.

I kinda wonder how much you have TRed and if you have even maxed all your destinies on any of your toons once.

I also wonder if you ever spent any Turbine points on tomes of fate or keys to unlock faster certain destinies. If you had you would think that such would be a nice investment because you believed that you unlocked it forever. Now with this proposal you would feel inclined for a refund on your turbine points.

So people are upset on this proposal and expressing it. Some of them have legitimate concerns. Some people don't really care cause it doesn't affect them personally one bit of difference cause they haven't gotten that far in game. Either way it is too early to tell if it worth quitting over as they may feel inclined to not even touch heroic TRing. We can however respect that the majority of the experienced player base is not particularly happy with the idea of being forced to lose epic destinies and any investments they made when it was told to them that EDs would not be touched by heroic TRing when EDs came out in the first place.

[Ultramaetche1]

To further expand on Towrn's idea on page 24 (hopefully I'm interpreting this correctly)



The idea that seems to make the most sense to me, so far, is this:

Player X is lvl 28 and has all ED's fully maxed out.
Player X Epic Trs with Fury of the Wild ED active.
Player X becomes lvl 1 (not 100% I am reading the ED ranks transferring to Heroic ranks correctly)
Player X has Fury of the Wild exp reset to 0 and the other 10 ED's exp remain unchanged.
Player X now benefits from the Fury of the Wild Epic Past Life but has to re-level the Fury of the Wild ED after re-leveling to 20.

In addition, since Player X is not losing all exp in all EDs, Player X only loses the 1-2 Fate points from losing the 5 levels of Fury of the Wild.

This seems fair. There is still a lot of exp that will be needed to be gained so it is not a day or two of grinding to finish, but it will also not waste all of the time players spent grinding thier EDs up.

Just my 2 cents.

Make the Epic TR system similar to the current, whereas your heroic levels 1-20 are reset to 1, and ONLY your currently active destiny is reset to 1. Maybe rework the system to recognize that the reset, or bonded, ED's (FotW in Towrn's example) would be the only ones to count towards the "Epic Advantage"

With this method, people would have the choice between Heroic TR'ing, whilst keeping all their destinies where they currently are, but would not give you an ED past life feat (or whatever its going to be called) that the Epic TR would give.

Conversely, people who have all their ED's maxed, could Epic TR to gain chosen ED past life feats by resetting that ONE destiny and re-leveling ONLY that one. Keeping majority of their fate points, while gaining the ED past life benefit. Thus, if you would like to gain the FULL "Epic Advantage" you would TR the 11 times, or whatnot, but each time you only have to re-level the single destiny that you Epic TR'd from. Each time you Epic TR, the destiny would become bonded and THEN count towards the "Epic Advantage"

Example of what I'm trying to explain:

18/2/8 Barbarian|Fighter|Epic in Dreadnought with all destinies capped decides to Epic TR.
They will start back at lv 1 like any TR, however ALL ED's remain capped EXCEPT for Dreadnought, due to it being the ED he Epic TR'd from.
The person would gain benefits from "Epic Advantage" ONLY for the Dreadnought ED due to it now being bound, and when they level back to 20, they simply re-level the Dreadnought ED as if the ED itself underwent a TR.
Now say they hit 28 again with their toon, this time in Fury of the Wild.
They once again Epic TR, this time resetting FotW while everything else remains untouched, however this second time around they gain "Epic Advantage" from both Dreadnought AND Fury of the Wild. Repeating as needed/wanted until ALL ED's are capped and bound.

[MetropolitanCarl]

This is a massively dumb idea for all the reasons explained in detail by previous posters in this thread. Kill it.

[Towrn]

To further expand on Towrn's idea on page 24 (hopefully I'm interpreting this correctly)



Make the Epic TR system similar to the current, whereas your heroic levels 1-20 are reset to 1, and ONLY your currently active destiny is reset to 1. Maybe rework the system to recognize that the reset, or bonded, ED's (FotW in Towrn's example) would be the only ones to count towards the "Epic Advantage"

With this method, people would have the choice between Heroic TR'ing, whilst keeping all their destinies where they currently are, but would not give you an ED past life feat (or whatever its going to be called) that the Epic TR would give.

Conversely, people who have all their ED's maxed, could Epic TR to gain chosen ED past life feats by resetting that ONE destiny and re-leveling ONLY that one. Keeping majority of their fate points, while gaining the ED past life benefit. Thus, if you would like to gain the FULL "Epic Advantage" you would TR the 11 times, or whatnot, but each time you only have to re-level the single destiny that you Epic TR'd from. Each time you Epic TR, the destiny would become bonded and THEN count towards the "Epic Advantage"

Example of what I'm trying to explain:

18/2/8 Barbarian|Fighter|Epic in Dreadnought with all destinies capped decides to Epic TR.
They will start back at lv 1 like any TR, however ALL ED's remain capped EXCEPT for Dreadnought, due to it being the ED he Epic TR'd from.
The person would gain benefits from "Epic Advantage" ONLY for the Dreadnought ED due to it now being bound, and when they level back to 20, they simply re-level the Dreadnought ED as if the ED itself underwent a TR.
Now say they hit 28 again with their toon, this time in Fury of the Wild.
They once again Epic TR, this time resetting FotW while everything else remains untouched, however this second time around they gain "Epic Advantage" from both Dreadnought AND Fury of the Wild. Repeating as needed/wanted until ALL ED's are capped and bound.


That's about what I meant....Unless I am not seeing something in this idea that could present a problem it seems that would be a good base for the idea of Epic TRs.

[QuickSlick79]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

Yknow I went to go and reread the OP and couldn't help but notice at the very bottom it says "Last edited by Cordovan"

You can't just EDIT the original post and then comment about "hey wait, go read more careful".

I swear I read something about a soon to be implemented system. I almost could swear I read about it rolling out with the expansion.

Turbine has ZERO good history with LISTENING and then CHANGING PRODUCTION. Normally, by the time you have this rolled out it's so coded and bugged and then RELEASED bugged how can we expect a polished product?

Also, if this is soooo far back in production then prove it. Show us you will release a changed system. I can bet you top dollar that when this goes live we will see practically this ENITRE OP implemented just as it has been typed.

And it's annoying how you take time to tell us to "play nice" when it is a commotion and fire YOU started. I paid top dollar during MoTu for your epic destiny garbage you wanna change game mechanics on now. I understand it's in the fine print that you can, now understand it's human emotion to react negatively to such foolish plans and understand how you've lost customers, enraged them, and understand the only way to SETTLE the bickering YOU HAVE CAUSED is to bring us peace by showing that you are listening and

ANNOUNCE YOUR CHANGES FOR THESE PURPOSED DEVASTATING "UPDATES"

You've lost all future money from me. There is my pledge. Why?

You still haven't even answered the questions about fate points. Don't treat us like ignorant masses. You know **** well what we want to know and what we NEED to know to make preparations or give feedback.

The fact you CHOOSE TO HIDE details, even when PRESSED FOR SPECIFICS, shows just how much you think you can manipulate us. And I am just done.

Done with all the half ass planning, done with all the flip flopping, done.

[Cableman]

I am a Completionist with all Epic Destanies maxed, I plan on going Triple Heroic Completionist. As such the xp loss will not hurt me as much as the others. Please Turbine listen to the community.


1. Please let us keep our twist of fate points when we do any Tr. Granted it will hurt to lose all my capped epic destany xp, eventually I will get it back. This would lessen the pain.

2.If we have unlocked a destany, let it remain unlocked, even IF we still lose the xp.

3.I bought the +2 fate point tome, if they are lost do I get my TP back?

4.If we buy the pre-order on the expainsion- and own the Iconics- let us when we Tr into an Iconic get the equipment that they would get if they were a new iconic, or just make the iconic equipment be BTA not BTC.

5.It would also be nice to have the completionist feat and epic completionist feat granted like a class feat instead of bought, once you meet the prereqs for them.

Overall I do like the changes, they just need some adjustments.

I fully agree with the above post. On life 25 currently, I will continue to TR since that is what I find fun and it helps other guild members level their characters. I have 8 of the 11 Destinies capped and only work on them while I work on tokens for the next life. If I lose the xp for an epic destiny past life feat, that is my choice, you don't have to TR or ETR, it's optional.

[QuickSlick79]

I also can't stomach that this is a fresh idea on the table.

Remember back when people lost all their Epic Destiny experience when they did a TR?

How much you wanna bet that was just bad Turbine code letting out the new "update" too early? Kind of like what happened with casters and crits and spell power just earlier this month.

Methinks this has been planned in the system for a while. What? You say that is just paranoid talk? Gee I wish I could believe that. I wish Turbine had a history of trust, I wish they had a history of pleasing their players.

But really, they just seem to be self indulgent. It's like they are the only DM in town, and the only reason you put up with all of their stupid house rules is because you want to play.

Nevermind the group is always working against you, always finding a way to cheat you from victory, always thinking of a way to keep your power down.

Well, I don't wanna play with that group forever. Turbine you are way outta strikes. Want some more evidence you are killing your game?

Not a single LFM up for epic levels on my server. Oh, well that isnt true. There's technically 2 DEAD LFM's that ARE NOT REAL....cause yknow, Turbine fixes things. Your little "sneak peak" at our "updates" sure do show signs of driving away the player base.

But don't worry, I'm sure it's just random happen stance this is the third day in a row we have less than 3 divines online (including multi class builds) between levels 1 and 25. Yeah, real healthy game.

[oradafu]

Make the Epic TR system similar to the current, whereas your heroic levels 1-20 are reset to 1, and ONLY your currently active destiny is reset to 1. Maybe rework the system to recognize that the reset, or bonded, ED's (FotW in Towrn's example) would be the only ones to count towards the "Epic Advantage"

I don't see why players can't keep all their ED XP since it was earned already. Some of the EDs are absolutely horrible for certain classes and builds. Why should players have to farm through them again? Doing the XP grind back to cap should be enough to gain the benefits from TRing.

I will agree with you that the Epic Advantage should only work with bonded EDs. Again this will level the playing field for everyone who does an Epic TR.

So for Epic TRs, I'd like to see ED XP stay, but Epic level wiped. Each time a player Epic TRs, they can bond with an ED. The Epic Advantage only works with the number bonded EDs. So when these changes happen, all players will start roughly on the same footing when it comes to Epic TRing, no matter how much ED progress they have.

This seems the most fair, since players that are capped still have to level up 11 times to be an Epic completionist. Players that have varying degrees of ED progress won't be set back either, but will need to farm the XP for their incomplete EDs if they want to become a completionist, which at least one new ED (if not more) getting enough XP on the way to cap. So everyone will be on equal footing and no one will be setback.

[Candela90]

Yknow I went to go and reread the OP and couldn't help but notice at the very bottom it says "Last edited by Cordovan"

You can't just EDIT the original post and then comment about "hey wait, go read more careful".

I swear I read something about a soon to be implemented system. I almost could swear I read about it rolling out with the expansion.

Turbine has ZERO good history with LISTENING and then CHANGING PRODUCTION. Normally, by the time you have this rolled out it's so coded and bugged and then RELEASED bugged how can we expect a polished product?

Also, if this is soooo far back in production then prove it. Show us you will release a changed system. I can bet you top dollar that when this goes live we will see practically this ENITRE OP implemented just as it has been typed.

And it's annoying how you take time to tell us to "play nice" when it is a commotion and fire YOU started. I paid top dollar during MoTu for your epic destiny garbage you wanna change game mechanics on now. I understand it's in the fine print that you can, now understand it's human emotion to react negatively to such foolish plans and understand how you've lost customers, enraged them, and understand the only way to SETTLE the bickering YOU HAVE CAUSED is to bring us peace by showing that you are listening and

ANNOUNCE YOUR CHANGES FOR THESE PURPOSED DEVASTATING "UPDATES"

You've lost all future money from me. There is my pledge. Why?

You still haven't even answered the questions about fate points. Don't treat us like ignorant masses. You know **** well what we want to know and what we NEED to know to make preparations or give feedback.

The fact you CHOOSE TO HIDE details, even when PRESSED FOR SPECIFICS, shows just how much you think you can manipulate us. And I am just done.

Done with all the half ass planning, done with all the flip flopping, done.


Ill half agree with this.
I mean - Turbine made a great game and kept developing the game for years - and I still love it - Im gratefull for that. Its a good job.

But you devs and Cordovan cant really be suprised theres only rage and fighting in this thread. People think this is how itll be implemented and Id love to think otherwise but... You keep doing some mistakes over and over:
1) 80% of players says its bad idea, they try to change your mind - nothing happens.
2) On Lammania a lot of ppl send a ticket/bug report or write on forumns about some serious bugs - but its still going live.
3) Serious bugs that destroy half enjoyment for class, like: not-working wail, not working crit multiplayer enhancements and lowered crit % -> its really hurting ... and its a long time since it was reported.

We all UNDERSTAND that its a game with big code - bugs happen, also developers are all humans - they make mistakes. Its ok.
But reported bugs on beta server cant hit live almost every time... Bugs that happen on live only have to be adressed before thinking about anything else.
Also - lack of communication. Its 3-4 posts in this thread from devs - its ok, you cant waste all your time to answer to posts. But many other threads and questions are staying with no answer.

We - as a community - are not that horrible. But you cant blame us for something you have caused.
We all love and play ddo - and we are concerned because when sth we see as a very bad idea comes as "idea" on forumns - considering ignoring our bug reports and previous suggested changes - most of us is practically sure that this will hit live in this form. So we rage.

Even lately - how it was with expansion - everyone was suprised theres pre-order already with no real testing out or any informations about product.

We love you and the game. We just dont know how to trust you when things like that keep happening.

[DrNuegebauer]

To further expand on Towrn's idea on page 24 (hopefully I'm interpreting this correctly)



Make the Epic TR system similar to the current, whereas your heroic levels 1-20 are reset to 1, and ONLY your currently active destiny is reset to 1. Maybe rework the system to recognize that the reset, or bonded, ED's (FotW in Towrn's example) would be the only ones to count towards the "Epic Advantage"

With this method, people would have the choice between Heroic TR'ing, whilst keeping all their destinies where they currently are, but would not give you an ED past life feat (or whatever its going to be called) that the Epic TR would give.

Conversely, people who have all their ED's maxed, could Epic TR to gain chosen ED past life feats by resetting that ONE destiny and re-leveling ONLY that one. Keeping majority of their fate points, while gaining the ED past life benefit. Thus, if you would like to gain the FULL "Epic Advantage" you would TR the 11 times, or whatnot, but each time you only have to re-level the single destiny that you Epic TR'd from. Each time you Epic TR, the destiny would become bonded and THEN count towards the "Epic Advantage"

Example of what I'm trying to explain:

18/2/8 Barbarian|Fighter|Epic in Dreadnought with all destinies capped decides to Epic TR.
They will start back at lv 1 like any TR, however ALL ED's remain capped EXCEPT for Dreadnought, due to it being the ED he Epic TR'd from.
The person would gain benefits from "Epic Advantage" ONLY for the Dreadnought ED due to it now being bound, and when they level back to 20, they simply re-level the Dreadnought ED as if the ED itself underwent a TR.
Now say they hit 28 again with their toon, this time in Fury of the Wild.
They once again Epic TR, this time resetting FotW while everything else remains untouched, however this second time around they gain "Epic Advantage" from both Dreadnought AND Fury of the Wild. Repeating as needed/wanted until ALL ED's are capped and bound.

Yes.

Doesn't penalize people for playing the game, which is an excellent thing.

[Darkrok]

Yknow I went to go and reread the OP and couldn't help but notice at the very bottom it says "Last edited by Cordovan"

You can't just EDIT the original post and then comment about "hey wait, go read more careful".

I did some research and at least as of 2pm or so yesterday what's up now is identical to what was there before. I checked this by finding a 3rd party source for the post, pasting both posts into files, and doing a file compare of the two files.

I'm all for the tin foil hats right now but in this case I think it's unwarranted.

[Teh_Troll]

You, sir, have gone soft. The anticipation of scouring fecal-caked privies for a week pales in comparison to realizing one would have to politely answer all forum-submitted dev requests for the same time period. The threat alone should be more than sufficient.

You cruel bastard . . .

[Cordovan]

I did some research and at least as of 2pm or so yesterday what's up now is identical to what was there before. I checked this by finding a 3rd party source for the post, pasting both posts into files, and doing a file compare of the two files.

I'm all for the tin foil hats right now but in this case I think it's unwarranted.

I moved the heading Iconic True Reincarnation into a separate line for better clarity, as it was initially formatted in error. :)

[QuickSlick79]

I did some research and at least as of 2pm or so yesterday what's up now is identical to what was there before. I checked this by finding a 3rd party source for the post, pasting both posts into files, and doing a file compare of the two files.

I'm all for the tin foil hats right now but in this case I think it's unwarranted.

Does not change the fact that if you wanna participate in an ongoing discussion with your players, then talk. Do not go edit original posts (that are not even yours), and then tell us to refer back to it. Add something, chime in your own opinion. But don't try and tell us our attitudes are unjustified. Maybe take a look at all the rage and go "Oh, wow, bad idea."

You shouldn't have to do "research" on an edited post to confirm it's sincerity. After all, this is a discussion between Dev's plans and players. Why the need for detective work? Shouldn't we just be able to trust them?

I'm glad you have so much faith in them that all you can contribute is trying to slander another player by insinuating they are crazy by ONLY referencing a small portion of a post.

Turbine has earned every form of treatment from their player base that they get.

[QuickSlick79]

Hey guys look, I got a Dev to chime in to clarify why they would edit a post...yet...

Still no answers on Fate Points.

~shrug~ Did you not know about Fate Points? Did you not know they were part of the epic system? Did you make no note on what to do with their code when you started drafting plans for all of these new TR's?

No, I'm sure there is plenty of ground work for what you intend to do with our Fate Points.

So....answer?

[Grosbeak07]

I fully agree with the above post. On life 25 currently, I will continue to TR since that is what I find fun and it helps other guild members level their characters. I have 8 of the 11 Destinies capped and only work on them while I work on tokens for the next life. If I lose the xp for an epic destiny past life feat, that is my choice, you don't have to TR or ETR, it's optional.

Your view I think is more representative of many (most?) of the players out there.

Well said.

[Cordovan]

Also, just to note that the edit was made a few minutes after the post was initially made.

Last edited by Cordovan (https://www.ddo.com/forums/posthistory.php?p=5020407); 06-12-2013 at 01:50 PM.

[Cableman]

But don't worry, I'm sure it's just random happen stance this is the third day in a row we have less than 3 divines online (including multi class builds) between levels 1 and 25. Yeah, real healthy game.

I call BS, Online right now (Sarlona), there are over 50 and it's not even prime time. Sarlona isn't even the heaviest populated server.

[Darkrok]

I moved the heading Iconic True Reincarnation into a separate line for better clarity, as it was initially formatted in error. :)

That explains why I didn't catch it...I didn't flag tabs/spaces as that would just be too ugly to file compare. :)

[Teelk_Jafffa]

You just need to know your player base. I have 4 divines on Argonnessen and 3 other types. When someone needs a healer who knows me they ask politely. Guess what they usually get the healer they need for being polite.

[Inoukchuk]

This.

If we can keep all our fate points, AND they get rid of the ED map (where you have to have 3-4 ranks in an useless destiny to unlock a destiny you do want), then I might be for this.

This is a chance to fix the ED system... I don't mind losing all the grind I've already done if I can keep the fate points, and my twist slots and can level in any ED I want. Because then I can just relevel the 3-5 EDs I'm interested in (and have fun playing while doing it) instead of wasting time getting magister ranks on my fighter to unlock twists...

If we have to re-grind the fate points again, wasting time AGAIN in EDs that suck for our character, then I agree the proposed system is terrible.

I would still resent losing 18 MILLION XP, and the ability to have an ED I had the foresight to level for a future life available when I get to that life, but this would at least be a major improvement. Maybe enough to downgrade many reactions from "@#!$ you guys, I'll find another game" to "you guys suck!"

EDs are powerful enough that many people recommend not TRing already because the gains are trivial compared to what EDs give. This would amplify that by a million for those that don't just immediately quit the game. For this reason alone I don't recommend removing our ED XP. Or, as one poster suggested (and I like) remove only the bonded (active) destiny XP, and give that destiny a PL bonus. That would actually encourage people to Epic TR.

But yes, at the very very least they need to preserve fate points and unlocks.

[Silverleafeon]

To further expand on Towrn's idea on page 24 (hopefully I'm interpreting this correctly)



Make the Epic TR system similar to the current, whereas your heroic levels 1-20 are reset to 1, and ONLY your currently active destiny is reset to 1. Maybe rework the system to recognize that the reset, or bonded, ED's (FotW in Towrn's example) would be the only ones to count towards the "Epic Advantage"

With this method, people would have the choice between Heroic TR'ing, whilst keeping all their destinies where they currently are, but would not give you an ED past life feat (or whatever its going to be called) that the Epic TR would give.

Conversely, people who have all their ED's maxed, could Epic TR to gain chosen ED past life feats by resetting that ONE destiny and re-leveling ONLY that one. Keeping majority of their fate points, while gaining the ED past life benefit. Thus, if you would like to gain the FULL "Epic Advantage" you would TR the 11 times, or whatnot, but each time you only have to re-level the single destiny that you Epic TR'd from. Each time you Epic TR, the destiny would become bonded and THEN count towards the "Epic Advantage"

Example of what I'm trying to explain:

18/2/8 Barbarian|Fighter|Epic in Dreadnought with all destinies capped decides to Epic TR.
They will start back at lv 1 like any TR, however ALL ED's remain capped EXCEPT for Dreadnought, due to it being the ED he Epic TR'd from.
The person would gain benefits from "Epic Advantage" ONLY for the Dreadnought ED due to it now being bound, and when they level back to 20, they simply re-level the Dreadnought ED as if the ED itself underwent a TR.
Now say they hit 28 again with their toon, this time in Fury of the Wild.
They once again Epic TR, this time resetting FotW while everything else remains untouched, however this second time around they gain "Epic Advantage" from both Dreadnought AND Fury of the Wild. Repeating as needed/wanted until ALL ED's are capped and bound.

I don't like it, because you are binding two different things together.
Heroic TRing and Epic Destinies.

Suppose this barbarian already had 3 barbarian past lives,
they would be upset to not get a fourth.

[Systern]

Another thing that makes the Epic Advantage really weird is that MotU was, essentially, a half-baked scheme to get us to pay for a cap increase. "We'll give them the levels for free, but make them pay for the enhancements!" So, Destinies are the epic Enhancement system. Why does this relate to an advantage for Heroic Levels?

Everyone hates your Points in Tree restriction, if not the entire system. How about making the Epic Advantage be that unbonded XP gets added as extra AP to spend? Each Capped, unbonded destiny adds 1 AP (stacking, persistent) AP to the heroic life. After 11 Epic TRs, grinding out max destinies each time; the Epic completionist would have an additional 55 AP to spend in your horrid Points in Tree System!



Also, what new Enhancement trees will be added in Update 20? Will Skill augments see the light of day? What new Cannith Crafting recipes? You guys always come up with grand sweeping changes that you can not finish by deadline with the dismissal that "you'll finish them later" and never go back and finish them.

[Silverleafeon]

That's about what I meant....Unless I am not seeing something in this idea that could present a problem it seems that would be a good base for the idea of Epic TRs.

I just listed it.

Many fighters and wizards are currently on their fourth life.
If you want this to be an available option among several then sure.
But if Epic TRing drops you to level 20, you could simply drop again to level 1 with a normal TR.

[Zzevel]

I agree with pretty much EVERYONE who cares enough about the game to visit the forums.. You have to be drunk with greed to think this will be accepted by the core base of the game. People put their time and money into this, a GAME to have fun, to become powerful... you flush their time and effort down the crapper to gain a few purchases of Epic TR wood? You think anyone will still be around to buy them?

I don't usually want something for FREE, but you are changing EVERYTHING as we know in TR and in doing so you are REALLY making some people unhappy...

If you do move down this ugly path at least honor the players for the time they spent. Give them a free ED TR binding for each destiny they already have filled.. that way they lose nothing and you can start your new process going forward with a happy player base (that is still around) that will drudginlly BUY that Epic TR Wood you want to sell when they get to that point...

[SensaiRyu]

Seems intriguing. I'd like to see what the actual level curve would be (as well as examples of ED PL Feats). The main thing keeping me from multiple TRs is the exp curve.

I'd probably grind out a few EDs I'd like to have PL feats for, bind them via TR, and complete the rest once I'm happy with my toon.

[magn0liafan]

Here's the thing.

My highest level character is a level 17 bladeforged.
My most progressed character is a level 11 Artificer (which has only gained four levels, since it started with Veteran Status). So yeah, as far as DDO goes, I'm a n00b, and I'll admit it.

However. I came here from WoW, after playing there for years. In my opinion, the changes they were making at end game didn't seem worth it, providing relatively small benefits for an extreme amount of work.

With that said, I am aware of the Epic Destiny Grind. I am aware that it takes 1.98 million xp to cap an epic destiny. I am also aware that there are people who, before this was released for the sake of having the destines necessary to compliment whatever class into which they would TR, be it for chasing after the completionist feat, because a certain class/build got nerfed to the point where it was no longer playable, or even for just a change of pace.

Currently, there are 11 epic destines available. 11*1,980,000 = 27.78 million xp.

From what I understand, the way True Reincarnation currently affects Epic Destinies, progress is halted, and can be picked back up once the character hits level 20 once again. Under the new "Epic" Reincarnation system, however, you bond one destiny, and recieve one Heroic Rank per level of Epic Destniny that you have earned.

At first, the new system sounds decent. You're on your final rank of level 11. However, assuming that this is at least your third life (based upon the max ED's for completionist theory), you would need a total of 1.1283 million xp to reach this point, based upon current figures. This is a payoff of approximately 4.06% of the initial investment. Plus they'll need to farm at least another 3.96 million epic xp along the way to level cap. At this point, the return percentages seem to look better. Except now, you're only getting 15 ranks, which is a total of 54.7 thousand xp, for a return of 1.38%.

And what happens when you don't have a second destiny to farm for the purposes of remaining unbonded? The character cannot epic reincarnate at this point, and can never truely complete the "epic completionist" feat that has been proposed.

This is further compounded by the statement that this epic XP will be wiped with a normal, level 20 reincarnation, with no chance to bond those destinies.

I suppose to min/max the effect of the new system, individuals wanting to go for completionist that have already maxed their Epic Destines would be to:

1.)Get to Level 28.

2.)Epic Reincarnate, bond 1 destiny, and begin the next chracter at the final rank of level 11.

3.)Level to 20.

4.)True Reincarnate.

5.)Repeat steps 3 and 4 until all desired past life feats for non-iconic classes are acquired.

6.)Level the final character for non-iconic past lives up to 28.

7.)Iconic Reincarnate into the Iconic Classes, leveling them to level 28. Epic Reincarnate after the final Iconic class hits 28.

8.)Begin working towards the (unachievable) Epic Completionist feat.

Such a wonderful system, don't you all agree?

My point? Even to a self-admitted n00b, this looks like a slap in the face to those who have worked their butts off for this. Even if someone is just starting the whole epic destniny grind, a return of 1.38% (which EVENTUALLY grows to 4.06%) is a steaming pile of feces.

Listen to your customers who are providing you with alternatives. While I doubt that everyone will abandon ship for this, I do believe that the game could reach a point to where it will be no longer profitable for you to maintain it.

TL;DR: A self-professed n00b examines the "epic" advantage, and points out exactly how it is flawed, using a mathematical basis.

P.S. : Rusted Blades Computations

Assumptions:
2 min/run
20k XP/run
1.98 Million xp per epic destiny
11 epic Destines

11 * 1,980,000 / 20,000 * 2
11 * 1,980,000 / 10,000
11 * 1,980 / 10
11 * 198
2,178 minutes
2,160 minutes + 18 minutes

36 hours, 18 minutes
(Of the same content. Spiffy.)

However, unboosted XP per run, on elite, without completing optional objectives is 14,327 XP. This, of course, adds more time to the equation.

50 Hours, 40 Minutes, 24.79 Seconds



To max the 11 ED you just need to spend 1 weekend on rusted blades. Yeah.. big lose. I want my 2 days back ¬¬'


Seems like more than a weekend to me. But I'm sure this guy would love to do it.

I like the sound of these plans and goals, keep up the good work.

As a side note to all the winjers - keep your bad news and whining to yourself, if you don't have any specific feedback contributions to submit that earnestly
seeks to give a mature opinion on these changes then please refrain from posting. Your constantly negative and whimisal comments are supressive.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Flies, Honey, Vinegar, blah, blah, blah. But why would I want flies?

[Citzen_Gkar]

Yeah, yeah, I know. Flies, Honey, Vinegar, blah, blah, blah. But why would I want flies?

Actually you can attract more flies with vinegar than honey (mostly fruit flies, but those are flies)

[Panserbjorne]

I understand the strong feelings at having to redo all the work of grinding EDs but I find Turbine is merely responding to three community requests:

I. Quality of Life fixes
II. Epification of Adventure Packs
III. Slowing down an increase to the level cap.

People are responding to these changes as if it wasn't something we were asking for! You can voice your opinion but it is disingenious to act like this is not something that the community has been requesting.

It is like a dog chasing it's tail, so the owner thinks that it wants to play fetch but when the dog catches a car EVERYONE has something to say, and very little is positive.

Quality of Life fixers: The dog states they aren't interested in cars, just wanted to itch fleas.

Epification of Packers: The dog states they were just bored, and would rather chase a ball.

No-Increase to Cappers: The dog states they didn't want to play fetch at all, they were mad at the dog chasing them. They just couldn't catch him!

Now, I don't intend to belittle the arguments that removing that much ED experience without giving the players something back is probably detrimental to the game. Every dog needs to be thrown a bone sometimes!

I am just trying to show people how silly it is to claim that Turbine wasn't listening or think that the sky is suddenly falling because we get a brief glimpse into all the things Turbine could do while we are pulling the bumper off the car and chewing the tires.

Turbine is trying to keep everyone satisfied and it's a difficult job. In DDO, TR is our Pavlovian response. The game is based upon TR'ing, so when they have multiple groups to satisfy, you will have to forgive them for ringing the bell and crossing their fingers that we will be satisfied with the bone, long enough to provide us with another steak.

Case in point, this provides players plenty of things to grind and plenty of lead time for Turbine so they can work on BIG projects without worrying that people have blown through the content and they have to rush something out before it is ready to keep people busy.

[Systern]

The main issue with the Epic Advantage is that it's not actually an advantage. A level 20 character that ETR'd and started at level 1 and one that ETR'd and started at level 12 is identical in power. All that extra investment for nothing. XP, while highly coveted, is actually really cheap in the game. It is not a lasting advantage to have more initial XP.

The suggestions that players are making are basically in 2 schools of thought:
1) Don't make us give up everything for no return, we only pay for what we get. This limits powercreep.
2) Reward us for our extended investment (a la my Unbonded to AP suggestion), this is more powercreep, but extends the game for all but the small percentage of players that will hammer out all EDs in a weekend with a megafarm.

[LightBear]

Yeah, that loss of ED xp is not good at all. I did not spend all that time (21 million xp O.o ) to have it taken away. It would be nice if you folks if we could auto bind them all.

[QuickSlick79]

I call BS, Online right now (Sarlona), there are over 50 and it's not even prime time. Sarlona isn't even the heaviest populated server.

Ohhh~ I love stuff like this!

Because you see no problem, there is none. Wow, the easiest logic to have ever. Turbines logic too. Even if we point out an issue, if they can't see it, it must not be there. See, hear and speak no evil, no evil to deal with right?

Wrong though, sorry.

MMO stands for MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER.

It shouldn't feel like a "small town" where everyone knows everyones name. I should have so many people to sift through for a group it's crazy. Granted I know we will never be as big as others, but we should never at least SHRINK to less than what we already have so little of.

If you log on and have groups and players, great, I am happy for you. Not every server can keep taking hits from Turbines choices and keep populated. But again, I guess if you don't see it, it isn't happening.

And hey, I'm sure you are on 24/7 and KNOW ALL ABOUT when people are on, because you KNOW everyone on your server right? Cause that should be at all feasible. But yknow what? Not everyone lives in fantasy land. ((Our characters do, but that isn't the point))

So yeah, whats the point of getting different views if you are just gonna pretend there isn't a problem? I mean cmon, clearly there is. Let's not all play Matrix ignorant here.

If I log on and don't see players, try to start my own LFM and it sits with no hits for an hour ((take note, the LFM sits, not me, Ill go solo quests or slay in wilds))...I'm gonna log off. I solo but why should I solo if I feel like changes in the future will upend all my hard work?

Again, if you can find a group I am happy for you. But that is not the case for everyone.

Do you still not see how much of an issue all of this is?

It isn't even an issue of effecting and ticking off "part of your player base"

I see two kinds of people in here, people that HATE your idea and are telling you so, and others who are ANNOYED but OPTIMISTIC you will change it up.

I've sifted through every page following this along. I see virtually zero support for your plans as they are. And my view is, it not only hurting peoples plans, but server population. Maybe not yours, but all I know is if I log onto my game and there's nothing at ANY POINT in the day, it is a bad thing.

Prime play time should not be the ONLY time you have LFM's period.

[Charononus]

TL;DR: A self-professed n00b examines the "epic" advantage, and points out exactly how it is flawed, using a mathematical basis.



I think you've graduated beyond noob, you may not know all the quests but you certainly seem to understand game mechanics.

[Silverleafeon]

Actually you can attract more flies with vinegar than honey (mostly fruit flies, but those are flies)

lol

[Opensezame]

From what I can see, the majority of you posting in this thread want the best of everything for the least work put in. I agree there needs to be a few changes to these proposals, but did you really think epic TR'ing was going to be easy???

Did you really think they were going to give you all these benefits for doing something very similar to what was in place for Heroic TR'ing?

I remember when TR'ing was first implemented on the EU servers. We had no shop to buy a true heart of wood, stones were bound to character, and the only viable quest to do at epic to get your 20 tokens was wiz king that took around 1 hour 40 mins to complete and you could only do it once per day.

If you came across anybody in game that was a legend build you knew they had worked on it for several months rather than several weeks.

Go and play another game if receiving a challenge is too much for you.

[Sokól]

Seems intriguing. I'd like to see what the actual level curve would be (as well as examples of ED PL Feats). The main thing keeping me from multiple TRs is the exp curve.

I'd probably grind out a few EDs I'd like to have PL feats for, bind them via TR, and complete the rest once I'm happy with my toon.

This just might be a way to make alts more powerful but the main who has all ED´s capped, the only way they can make this system work for main toons is that they keep their fate points.

[magn0liafan]

Actually you can attract more flies with vinegar than honey (mostly fruit flies, but those are flies)

AI-YAH! This is Uncle's antique shop, not a science fair!

[Towrn]

I just listed it.

Many fighters and wizards are currently on their fourth life.
If you want this to be an available option among several then sure.
But if Epic TRing drops you to level 20, you could simply drop again to level 1 with a normal TR.

I don't quite understand the part that I've bolded.

I personally have 3 past lives in Barb, Arti, Monk, Druid and Sorc, 2 past lives on most of the rest. If Epic TRing is for Epic Destinies, it doesn't sound like it matters what class you are, just what destiny you are Epic Tring.

As someone else has said, this is a choice, not a requisite. You don't HAVE to do it. There is no way Turbine is going to be able to do Epic TRing without ANYONE finding a problem with something. So far the idea that I and several others have been laying out seems to be the best way to have everyone be able to benefit from this without wasting massive amount of time.

Will some time from some people, myself included, be wasted? Yes. But I think most in the same boat as me wouldn't mind it so much if they tried to minimize the amount of wasted time that we would lose.

[Opensezame]

From what I can see, the majority of you posting in this thread want the best of everything for the least work put in. I agree there needs to be a few changes to these proposals, but did you really think epic TR'ing was going to be easy???

Did you really think they were going to give you all these benefits for doing something very similar to what was in place for Heroic TR'ing?

I remember when TR'ing was first implemented on the EU servers. We had no shop to buy a true heart of wood, stones were bound to character, and the only viable quest to do at epic to get your 20 tokens was wiz king that took around 1 hour 40 mins to complete and you could only do it once per day.

If you came across anybody in game that was a legend build you knew they had worked on it for several months rather than several weeks.

Go and play another game if receiving a challenge is too much for you.

Bah, sorry... with the inability to edit posts at the moment... I meant tokens were btc, not stones!

[Qhualor]

Here's the thing...

i aint smhart when it comes to numbers like that, but its no wonder i actually feel like im working when i ED farm and not playing to have fun. the proposed change would make me want to just lose interest and eventually quit. my average play time dropped from 5-6 hours daily to 2 hours when i started ED farming.

your math is probably best case scenario for those group zerg runs, but for me its worse. it takes me 7 minutes because i solo farm, no haste and my barb don't got DDoor, except for when she was in Shadowdancer. i didn't want to give that up when i switched destiny. i can complete Rusted Blades in 4 minutes, but it takes 3 minutes to run back to the quest giver and back to the quest. it makes having the new recall so much better now.

[WruntJunior]

From what I can see, the majority of you posting in this thread want the best of everything for the least work put in. I agree there needs to be a few changes to these proposals, but did you really think epic TR'ing was going to be easy???

Did you really think they were going to give you all these benefits for doing something very similar to what was in place for Heroic TR'ing?

I remember when TR'ing was first implemented on the EU servers. We had no shop to buy a true heart of wood, stones were bound to character, and the only viable quest to do at epic to get your 20 tokens was wiz king that took around 1 hour 40 mins to complete and you could only do it once per day.

If you came across anybody in game that was a legend build you knew they had worked on it for several months rather than several weeks.

Go and play another game if receiving a challenge is too much for you.

There's no in-game challenge (psychological challenge, yes) in TRing many times.

There IS, however, a considerable amount of time invested already that will completely be invalidated, adding on hundreds of hours MORE of farming.

BTW, the type of scenario you're describing is the type of scenario you should force on DDO when you want to see it die.

[Sokól]

I like change but the change has to be fair to the work already put in.

[Silverleafeon]

What would be helpful is to gather the concensus from the now 26 pages of replies - ignore completely all the plebs who just post that Turbine as a company hate their players, hate the game, etc etc - and come back with confirmation after an internal meeting to clarify just a few things:
(1) That Heroic TRing will not affect ED XP in any way
(2) That Epic TRing is designed to be an optional path for players and that future content will not be scaled on the assumption of Epic Destiny Past Lives
(3) That there will be further discussions on what the Epic Advantage will be for players who already have their ED's capped, and that some one-time-only-boon is being considered
(4) That you will be free to Epic TR any time that you are at level cap (level 28) whether or not you have an unbonded destiny available, but you will only gain an ED Past Life Feat and have your ED XP reset, if you have an unbonded destiny active *
(5) That the Heroic XP curve will not be affected
(6) That Heroic XP for individual quests will be revised to provide additional viable levelling paths
(7) That the ED XP curve will not be affected
(8) That the Epic XP curve is being reduced, and provide specific details of the new proposal (with the caveat that it is subject to change)

I think that this would address the majority of the concerns.

* The reason for this is that you can only Epic TR into an Iconic, and with 3 Past Life Feats on 4 Iconics, that means 12 Iconic Past Life Feats, when you only have 11 Epic Destinies. Which would present a problem as follows:
Life 1 - 20 Wizard/8 Epic, Magister ED -> Epic TR
Life 2 - 20 Sorcerer/8 Epic, Draconic ED -> Epic TR
Life 3 - 20 Bladeforged/8 Epic, Fatesinger ED -> Epic TR
Life 4 - 20 Bladeforged/8 Epic, Shadowdancer ED -> Epic TR
Life 5 - 20 Bladeforged/8 Epic, Legendary Dreadnought ED -> Epic TR
Life 6 - 20 Purple Dragon Knight/8 Epic, Shiradi ED -> Epic TR
Life 7 - 20 Purple Dragon Knight/8 Epic, Fury of the Wild ED -> Epic TR
Life 8 - 20 Purple Dragon Knight/8 Epic, Primal Avatar ED -> Epic TR
Life 9 - 20 Shadar-Kai/8 Epic, Grandmaster of Flowers ED -> Epic TR
Life 10 - 20 Shadar-Kai/8 Epic, Unyielding Sentinel ED -> Epic TR
Life 11 - 20 Shadar-Kai/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> Epic TR
Life 12 - 20 Morninglord/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> ....... oops, can't Epic TR again because we've not more unbonded ED's

Thank you, and please Cordovan start typing up and summarizing this thread.

Those of you with pitchfork, the torches are available now.
http://ddowiki.com/index.php?search=torches&go=Go&title=Special%3ASearch

Please watch our language but holler out.

Again the whole class / iconic past life should be separated form ED TR

[Tscheuss]

Do you really honestly think it is only a weekend grind to cap destinies for most players?????

If so you live in a fantasy world.

If we didn't live in a fantasy world, this convo wouldn't exist. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-forum/rotfl.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[Silverleafeon]

A bit of birds eye view here.

If one will not lose epic destiny xp upon a heroic TR or iconic TR, then binding an ED is no longer valid.

If so, then you can allow one to gain multiple Epic Destiny Past Lives, since there is nothing to
protect the Ed from being lost.

If so, you could allow the option to Epic TR, turning in all capped epic destinies for
a single past life in each one. Any non capped EDs should be left alone.

Other options should be available.

[magn0liafan]

i aint smhart when it comes to numbers like that, but its no wonder i actually feel like im working when i ED farm and not playing to have fun. the proposed change would make me want to just lose interest and eventually quit. my average play time dropped from 5-6 hours daily to 2 hours when i started ED farming.

your math is probably best case scenario for those group zerg runs, but for me its worse. it takes me 7 minutes because i solo farm, no haste and my barb don't got DDoor, except for when she was in Shadowdancer. i didn't want to give that up when i switched destiny. i can complete Rusted Blades in 4 minutes, but it takes 3 minutes to run back to the quest giver and back to the quest. it makes having the new recall so much better now.

I was merely quoting another individual's assumption for the "two minute run".
But... at 7 minutes per run.....

177 hours, 21 minutes, 26.77 seconds.

Hi. My name's magn0liafan, and I'm a number cruncher.

[Qhualor]

From what I can see, the majority of you posting in this thread want the best of everything for the least work put in. I agree there needs to be a few changes to these proposals, but did you really think epic TR'ing was going to be easy???

Did you really think they were going to give you all these benefits for doing something very similar to what was in place for Heroic TR'ing?

I remember when TR'ing was first implemented on the EU servers. We had no shop to buy a true heart of wood, stones were bound to character, and the only viable quest to do at epic to get your 20 tokens was wiz king that took around 1 hour 40 mins to complete and you could only do it once per day.

If you came across anybody in game that was a legend build you knew they had worked on it for several months rather than several weeks.

Go and play another game if receiving a challenge is too much for you.

you don't have an epic character do you :p

im all for challenge and im right there preaching how we need more of it in game, but i don't think you mean to use the word "challenge". there is no challenge in grinding out xp for fate points and leveling through useless destinies which limit you to what you really can do in the game. that's why people grind out Rusted Blades since its the fastest and easiest quest to level through destinies. i wont do anything else with my character as long as she is farming for fate points because there is a noticeable difference in character ability. ive already invested hours upon hours upon hours which has resulted in more than 2 weeks of ED farming since im down to 2 hours a day playing. i call it work and not having fun playing a game. i could have TR'd another character for a 3rd life and had him capped in the amount of time its taking me to get the twists i want and i would have played an average of 5-6 hours daily like i was doing before. its not challenging and the proposed changes would make it insanity.

[Opensezame]

"Life 12 - 20 Morninglord/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> ....... oops, can't Epic TR again because we've not more unbonded ED's"

And there you have your epic completionist

[Qhualor]

I was merely quoting another individual's assumption for the "two minute run".
But... at 7 minutes per run.....

177 hours, 21 minutes, 26.77 seconds.

Hi. My name's magn0liafan, and I'm a number cruncher.

i hate my life :(

[zeal0us]

• True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

Amusingly, when TR was first brought to the game what many players clamored for was a way to repair characters with race/class choices made suboptimal by game changes. Iirc the TR benefits was stated as minor additions of scant importance just as a small compensation for having to relevel a character. (ofc anyone could see they weren't of scant importance which also was argued about)

Remind me, if my character has a race/class combination that due to changes to the game does not perform optimally for it's intended purpose, what reliable non-store option do I have for changing race and class?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a tangent I'm quite on the fence regarding the PLs even though I initially was heavily opposed to them. In retrospect, same as hard to aquire raid loot they keep the players running the hamster wheel. Keep the population higher, even at lower level, facilitating grouping. OTOH the time-required-for-viability, i.e. how much time you must spend on a character before being capable of doing X, e.g. being able to join that "lvl 20-25 normal shroud, link BB and demonstrate capped ED" or such, is vastly increased.

[Systern]

"Life 12 - 20 Morninglord/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> ....... oops, can't Epic TR again because we've not more unbonded ED's"

And there you have your epic completionist

Yes, but you can still heroic TR until you get Completionist, Triple Completionist, New FotM build, etc at any epic point.

Since the Epic PLs require the destiny to be unbonded (and level 28), you just can't get Triple stacks of those.

[Beethoven]

Ihr seit so blöd wie 3 Reihen Salat.

Depatah, wanst nix g'scheits zum sog'n hast waers besser wennst dei' bledes moi haeutst. That's Viennese for I appreciate your well thought out input. See? I can do that too, in dialect even.

On topic, the system isn't bad if taken by itself and in /direct/ comparison I actually like it more than what we have. From where I am sitting Turbine's failure is less with the new system but with waiting a year between release of the EDs and Epic TRs. Both systems should have been released simultaneously, not so far apart where everyone and their monkey already went through the motions.

It turns maximizing your EDs more into a long term project, which I always thought it should have been to begin with. Despite all the over the top melodramatics in this thread, capping all EDs is not an enormous grind but something than can be done in a few weeks time by even a casual player (and less for hardcores).

Frankly, it took me longer to grind ToD rings for my toons back in the day than it took me to grind out all 11 EDs. It may be comparable doing a single TR but certainly not months of hard work (months would imply several hundred hours of game time devoted exclusively to leveling EDs, that's just silly).

The second advantage of the proposed system is that it removes the silliness where the most effective way to level your EDs is having your Barbarian run around with Fatesinger, Magister and other (off) Destinies. It is neither fun nor does it make a lot of sense thematically.

From where I am sitting Turbine's failure is less with the new system but with waiting a year between release of the EDs and Epic TRs. Both systems should have been released simultaneously, not so far apart where everyone and their monkey already went through the motions.

Personally I think the best way to address this issue at this point is to either

a. seperate the processes of Heroic and Epic TR further and allow people to keep their Destiny XP/levels in Heroic TRs with only Epic TR resetting Epic Destinies (except the bonded one, of course).

b. increase the benefit Epic Advantage: one Heroic rank for a full level in an Epic Destiny is a bad deal not matter how you slice or dice it. Myself I would even go so far to say a good start would be a full (Epic) TR for each Circle (ie: you have Fatesinger, Draconic Incarnation and Magister capped and Epic TR you gain enough XP in return to skip a full life).

[Silverleafeon]

Life 12 - 20 Morninglord/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> ....... oops, can't Epic TR again because we've not more unbonded ED's

I fail to see why Epic TRing is associated with Iconics here?

Did I miss something?

Hmm...


I
A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:



Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


Epic Destiny True Reincarnation



Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat

Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny


Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build
.

Hmm...I don't see where Epic TRing lands you if you are in an iconic race?

Are we going to be allowed to combine Iconic TRing Epic TRing all on the same life?

Cause that would be sweet to get an Iconic and a ED past feat all at the same time?

[SisAmethyst]

The main issue with the Epic Advantage is that it's not actually an advantage. A level 20 character that ETR'd and started at level 1 and one that ETR'd and started at level 12 is identical in power. All that extra investment for nothing. XP, while highly coveted, is actually really cheap in the game. It is not a lasting advantage to have more initial XP.

The suggestions that players are making are basically in 2 schools of thought:
1) Don't make us give up everything for no return, we only pay for what we get. This limits powercreep.
2) Reward us for our extended investment (a la my Unbonded to AP suggestion), this is more powercreep, but extends the game for all but the small percentage of players that will hammer out all EDs in a weekend with a megafarm.

Indeed, especially since the first 8 levels are like what? A cakewalk for players that already have several TR or several ED. If you take your time and try to do all quests from level 1-5 on elite exactly one time you can easily get 1 level per day. After that a lot of players will anyway stone them to 16+ and that is where the grinding start no matter what due to thin content. So this advantage is a soap bubble that provide a lot of players zero advantage. Heck I mean some player manage to TR even in less then 3 days.

I can understand somehow if epic TR would wipe the ED, but not heroic TR. Than one I still would have a choice to not do it. Even then I find the other provided solutions about only loosing the active ED or a token system for already acquired EDs a far better approach.

[Systern]

I fail to see why Epic TRing is associated with Iconics here?

Did I miss something?

Hmm...



Hmm...I don't see where Epic TRing lands you if you are in an iconic race?

Are we going to be allowed to combine Iconic TRing Epic TRing all on the same life?

Cause that would be sweet to get an Iconic and a ED past feat all at the same time?

ETR grants the Epic PL and Class PL (just like heroic)...

Since one of the design goals is to "Introduce Iconics into the TR cycle", I read that as the Iconic PL will be treated the same as a Class PL... (Thus, everyone's about to lose completionist until they do 4 more lives, which are basically another Pally, Rogue, Cleric, and Fighter life... but hey, don't fuss about that, cuz they might Take Away All Destiny XP! My friends in game development call this "a duck"... something glaringly wrong that you know is going to illicit feedback so the questionable thing you want in there slides through.)

[Silverleafeon]

How does it affect my play style?

I want to TR my toon into the Iconic Classes.
I would like more fate points.
I don't mind reearning my epic destinies if I get more fate points.

I would like to combine Epic TRing with Iconic TRing.
I don't care if my TR into Iconics does not yield a past life.

Perhaps Epic TRing should offer three options?
Back to 1 as an heroic class with whatever last past life deserves.
Back to 15 as an iconic with whatever last past life deserves.
Back to 20 as a +0 Lesser Heart.
All of which reset the epic destiny of the active destiny only and grant a past life of that destiny.

I would prefer not to allow multiple Epic Destiny Past lives that way they will be more uber,
hence you could bind them if you wanted.

Heroic should be available without loss of ED XP as well.

After you first Epic Iconic TR, you could simply block a reset of any ED XP by making
the bound ED active before TRing.

[TheylostmyID]

This is what the ED system should have been when it was first released. This is a much more elegant system and it will add a lot of replayablity to the game.

Sadly, it's a bit late to be changing the rules.

One concern, other than the obvious loss of ED XP, is for people who spent real $ on Keys of Fate to unlock other destinies. Will these be wasted when you EDTR?

The only solution that I can come up with is to provide characters created before a certain date (today for example) to be given the ability to bind all their capped destinies.

I'm not sure how to fairly handle the ED PL feats.

[Silverleafeon]

My friends in game development call this "a duck"... something glaringly wrong that you know is going to illicit feedback so the questionable thing you want in there slides through.)Well the whole thing slide by me, every bit of it...sigh and read it a lot.

[Silverleafeon]

One concern, other than the obvious loss of ED XP, is for people who spent real $ on Keys of Fate to unlock other destinies. Will these be wasted when you EDTR?
That and fate points are the big game breaker.

[mikarddo]

How does this system look in practice?

Heroic True Reincarnation


Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)



Looks ok. I would drop the Epic Advantage though but thats not a game breaker so leave it or remove it as you wish.



Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat

Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny


Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


Dont mix Epic TR with Heroic TR. This means that an Epic TR should return you to level 20 - not level 1 or anywhere in the heroic levels - but level 20. This also means that an Epic TR should not give a Class Past Life Feat - leave that to the Heroic TR. Many people either already have the Heroic TR they want or simple dont want to redo the lower levels. Far better to keep the two system seperate so each player may choose to undertake the kind of TR he/she wants.



Epic Advantage
With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

Not having ED xp carry over seems harsh. If and only if points of fate remain in place and unlocked EDs remain unlocked will this work. With that in place I think you have a fine system though.

[Gremmlynn]

So I'm officially quitting...I'm quitting Turbine's game. I'm quitting as a paying customer. I'll see you all in-game while I'm playing my game. I'll be the relaxed gimp in decent gear having fun on Turbine's dime.Welcome to the darkside :).

[SisAmethyst]

From what I can see, the majority of you posting in this thread want the best of everything for the least work put in. I agree there needs to be a few changes to these proposals, but did you really think epic TR'ing was going to be easy???...

You actually seem to miss the point. ANY TR, even heroic will invalidate ALL your ED. I could care less if this would be only about epic TR, but it isn't. Also where exactly is the challenge in finishing quests like Rusted Blades a gazillion of times? And yes, I came from the EU servers as well, but I don't understand your point in telling what we had or hadn't there over here. It is irrelevant to the point of loosing the ED on a heroic TR for no substantial reward. Actually with the changes it even get easier, as one could just skip the first levels with the epic advantage. Just for several players this just ain't a real advantage compared to the tradeoff.

[2pleasegimmie]

I'm 100% in favor of this change to Lesser Reincarnation and really hope it's implemented! :)

Most of the new additions and other changes sound good too, except for losing all accumulated ED XP which would make it undesirable in most instances to ever TR except where no EDs have been gained yet (i.e., almost immediately upon reaching level 20, with no previous EDs).

Given that the ED system, from the beginning, kept ED XP intact if a character chose to TR, any change that resets ED XP to 0 (even in exchange for other bonuses) really should be optional, and will almost certainly result in a greatly diminished number of TRs, which in turn will almost certainly result in a decline in active players. The proposed bonus to Heroic ranks, while an interesting idea, doesn't sound like a fair or worthwhile trade for losing all ED XP.

Perhaps some compromise could be reached, such as an option to trade in a single chosen ED for a past life ED feat with the Epic TR. Even then, the past life feat would need to be quite exceptional to be worth giving up an already-earned ED. I imagine some sort of bonus to that ED (if re-acquired) or other EDs that increases their power or utility would make sense.

This is a very thoughtful and reasoned response.

My opinion is more along the lines of the first response in this thread, that is, the idea as proposed of ripping people off from their epic XP sucks. I simply wont participate in the grindfest, so you wont be getting any store item sales from me.

[QuickSlick79]

I see they are still neglecting to update us on Fate Points.

Still waiting on that info. It may serve to help your cause in cooling tempers. That's at least something everyone whose played by your rules could keep out of this cheap move.

Still silly the only communication we've gotten to our responses is "We are still developing, stop being so angry"

It's hard when you shove lines like "How will this effect ((or CHANGE)) your play style?" into your announcement. You guys basically come right out the door saying "Hey, this is WHAT YOU GET", adding a line or two at the end about how you want feedback doesn't improve the impression you give us, when you have the track record of treating our feedback like that of a movie review, as knowledgeable opinions. Guess what? We're not getting paid to critic your game, we PAY YOU to get the chance to play and maybe a word in on how we want the game to change. If we find the reviews negative too long, we just leave.

And you are shocked people are angry?

And you still choose to keep silent on info that has been specifically asked for? And should have REASONABLY already been given on an announcement such as this? Turbine, YOU are the ones who are overtly harsh to your players with messages like this.

And by continuing to skirt past issues and hoping the smarter among us wont ask questions or catch on. Think that is paranoid thinking? Well gee, try answering the questions/concerns then. Instead of chiding us for our tone, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for it. Realize the reaction is negative, painfully negative.

Again, your fault. Fix it, answer, communicate. I'd like to think you are soaking it all in and making plans to respond to our concerns...but so far, pretty lame responses to the tide of feedback.

Oh, and sorry if my posts are pretty much negative spew. MANY MANY others have made WONDERFUL SUGGESTIONS and given very reasonable back up for why their ideas are positive. So much work they have put in their ideas, I couldn't possibly add on them. However, I can help voice my dissatisfaction with how Turbine treats/talks to these people.

Turbine still has made it unclear they care, and has a track record of ignoring such brilliant ideas brought about by passionate players who only want to help the game.

[Gremmlynn]

1. I hate the original post and I agree that it does need some tweaking before it goes live.More than that IMO.


2. I nearly have all of my ED's maxed on my main toon. I will continue to gain ED XP simply because I enjoy playing that toon. If the new system takes away that XP...I promise people, life will go on. Stop complaining...just stop....its silly.It's called feedback in the hopes that we improve our options when it comes to:
3. If you dont agree with the way the new system is ultimately implemented, you have 3 choices:

a. Deal with it, and continue to play because you enjoy the game and friends you have in game.
b. Don't TR...if you like where your toon is...by all means leave it there...it is really that simple.
c. Stop playing, no one is forcing you to play...if you are unhappy...stop...again it is that simple.

Think of it this way...read any (and I mean any)of the potential game changing threads and you will see messages similar to what you read here....epic fail, stupid, etc...hello??? You are still here which means that time and time again you have picked option "A" above.

Turbine will ultimately do hat they think is best (even if some of us don't agree) so get over it and stop moaning about a "potential" change that is not completely laid out yet.

Now all of the above stated, I have a 36 point build with nearly all ED's close to or maxed out....I will continue grinding, I will TR to have a 38 point build, I will continue the grind on whatever level I need to. If you don't like what ultimately happens when it actually does happen, move along....it is exactly that simple!!!After having already run through the whole "grind out worthless destinies for fate points" gauntlet they gave us a year ago, I'm really not in the mood to be told that was total waste of time (rather than just a huge waste of time). If it had at least been fun to do, I would at least have that to console me, but it wasn't. It was something to get past so as to never have to worry about it again, except now we do.

What next, a new TR system that rolls back all past lives? A new enhancement system that rolls back all characters? When are we supposed to tell them that stupid ideas are stupid?

[Atremus]

Getting fate points just isn't enough for me to have to regrind all of that XP out over the course of a few months. We need to work out a way to keep the XP earned or trade it in for 1 time Heroic PL's


Edit: ED XP for Heroic PL? 1 time only

[TorkRaider]

Honestly that’s what this sounds like. Rollback all ED’s (millions of XP) to the summer of 2012 but don’t refund any TP (or cash) spent by players. “Hey they won’t care ;-)”I spent months and close to $1,000 on VIP, expansion packs and TP for my family and you’re contemplating wiping this money and a year’s worth of playing out for what grand purpose? You get everything and we get nothing?My main took 18 months to get to 20 the first life and six months to TR back to 20 the second time, and then spent 7-8 months getting maxed in most ED’s. This says nothing about time spend playing Epic levels with family. Now we have to do it again?If this was the plan you should have announced it before selling MOTU.Just plain disgusted that you would even suggest this.

[THOTHdha]

We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).

It seems like most of the nerd rage going on here is due to the assumption that the 'Epic Advantage' ranks will be applied right away when you TR, completing the first several levels of your new life before you even begin much the way that Veteran Status does. However, the last bit of this quote seems to throw that into question. I think that some of these details need to come posthaste before the forum rioting turns into people actively unfollowing Turbine. I know that I only heard about this because of Producer Glin's tweet, since aside from the Enhancement Alpha DDO hasn't been able to hold my interest since shortly after MotU. Still hoping that Turbine will turn things around.

[Arnez]

I have to read this like 4 more times . . . but did these guys actually find a way to make the ED grind in DDO worse? :cool:

Actually- it looks like DDO is pulling a Microsoft. Makes me wonder which D&D MMO is Sony....

[Feithlin]

As many have already stated, I'm strongly against reseting ED xp for heroic TR. The whole system was pretty much horrible in terms of grinding, and an adjustment wouldn't cut it for me. I have not even finished for main char, and I'm playing a lot less my secondary chars and have not touched my chars on my secondary server because of this.

Heroic TR should stay the same as it is. You're welcome to change the PL feats, but NOT reset ED xp.

For Epic TR, it's different. It's a new bonus, and it's acceptable if it requires us to decide if we prefer to ignore those bonuses and start over the grind.

I really don't think changing TR is a high priority. The enhancement pass will already give a lot of work, because it's predictable it will come live with a lot of bugs. Before adding new features, maybe you should stabilize the basis of the game (feats, enhancements, ED). IMO, TR modification should be delayed at least after all the PrE are implemented...

[Gremmlynn]

This is a privately owned discussion board. Therefore "Freedom of speech" should never even be brought into the conversation, period. If that's the case, what exactly gets discussed on privately owned discussion boards put up to discuss free speech issues?

I think what you meant to say is that Turbine is not obligated to respect anyone's public right to free speech. But unless it's against forum rules, it wouldn't seem out of line to discuss it.

[paintedman]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

Cordovan and developers,

As you can see, this shift from what the players have learned to work with has caused some consternation. Some are willing to roll with the punches and others are not. The larger fear is that this will, if it has not already, will turn some of the die-hard players away to other mmo's.

I believe I understand what your goal is, to help new players not feel so far behind. The approach seems that it would have that effect. Unfortunately it will do so by alienating your dedicated player base who has spent hours getting to the top.

I would like to see the cap raised on a regularly; I know that it is no accident that there are now characters that start at level 15, since some new players will jump at that to get a head start, but what quality will these players be, having no experience making mistakes that your old timers have made at the very same low levels that were skipped.

In my humble opinion, I think I would like to see the development focusing their time on depth of quest at all levels, rather than balancing out old vs. new players. More playable races, more quest in different areas of Eberon, roll out Psionics. Maybe make some complete worlds that would appeal to players of other MMO's to draw them in. Just because you have the best piece of DnD cake, don't mean you can't take someone else’s too!

Psionics all by themselves would unleash new monsters and difficulties to deal with them. Open up poison and disease penalties; make them painful so we will have more dimensions to consider. Remove the ability to perma rage and jump cast. There are many avenues to peruse.

Gonna wrap it up, with this, you have a great game and good gamers that are for the most part friendly. Having played a few other MMO's that nothing to sneeze at.

thanks,

-paint

[Frupup]

dire. dire. dire. grind out the destinies AGAIN?! seriously?!

DDO is becoming the most AWFUL kind of grind now. this new grind is simply too much. I would consider quitting after 6 years in game. don't they realise that increasing the grind is going to make people simply stop playing and find something more interesting.

terrible. simply terrible.

[Darkrok]

**chuckles**

I see that you guys just put up a double bonus point sale. I think you're off by a week on that timing. You've probably lost about 80% of what you would have gotten from that until these questions are answered to everyone's satisfaction.

[Satyriasys]

dire. dire. dire. grind out the destinies AGAIN?! seriously?!

DDO is becoming the most AWFUL kind of grind now. this new grind is simply too much. I would consider quitting after 6 years in game. don't they realise that increasing the grind is going to make people simply stop playing and find something more interesting.

terrible. simply terrible.


You have no idea what the grind will be. These are very early ideas being thrown at us for some constructive feedback.

Turbine finally gives us some transparency and insight into their plans in hopes of getting OUR feedback and everyone acts like this is going live tomorrow.

[Deadlock]

"Life 12 - 20 Morninglord/8 Epic, Exalted Angel ED -> ....... oops, can't Epic TR again because we've not more unbonded ED's"

And there you have your epic completionist

Uhuh, we got that bit already :)

But are you are suggesting that this is part of the intended design? That it's intentional that you won't be able to obtain 3x past lives on all of the 4 iconic classes (never mind any future additions)?

You might want to rethink that :)

We're not asking for an Iconic Completionist Feat here, we're simply talking about the basic ability to take all of the possible Iconic Past Lives if we decide that's something we want to do.

I'm 99.999% sure that this is what they intended, but the way it's been described this wouldn't be possible. So it should be a very, very straight forward thing to clarify :) I'm not asking anyone to put their nuts in a vice here, just clarify a few simple points. The complex stuff we can worry about another day :)

[Gremmlynn]

This is absolutely correct. Also, Teh_Troll's previous post wherein he speculates that if heroic TR does not impact epic destiny experience that people will calm down is also true for nearly 100% of the people here. I know it is for me. Leave me the option to leave my destiny experience in tact *and still* be able to TR back to level 1 on occasion and I will be happy to continue playing, continue paying, and continue enjoying the characters I have invested so much time and effort into.

Let me choose when and if my epic destiny experience gets wiped. That is all I ask. Then, the people who want to participate in the new system can do so. I may even eventually want to participate, but let me choose when or if I do. The same as you did with the new augment system. You didn't take away my hard-won augments from before the new system. Why would you take away my hard-won destiny progress?This I agree with. For me it will mean that those characters that have significant destinies levels will likely never ETR, while for those that don't it will likely be the standard. One destiny/life with level 23+ being done in a completed and compatible destiny actually sounds fun. Gaining twists with more lives is a bonus.

[Deadlock]

I fail to see why Epic TRing is associated with Iconics here?

Did I miss something?

Hmm...



Hmm...I don't see where Epic TRing lands you if you are in an iconic race?

Are we going to be allowed to combine Iconic TRing Epic TRing all on the same life?

Cause that would be sweet to get an Iconic and a ED past feat all at the same time?


Yip that's how I'm reading it.


A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:


Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)





Just those two points in the section about Epic Destiny TRing.

If that's not the intention and Iconic TRing is completely different from Epic TRing then, Houston, we have a major problem.

It would mean that having already done 40 lives, I will now have to do another 11 just to lock in my ED XP, but gaining absolutely no benefit apart from Epic Completionist because I've already maxed out my Past Life Feats. And then have the opportunity to do another 12 Iconic Lives?

Nah, can't be how it's intended.

Or are we saying that Iconic TRing is different completely from Epic TRing and it won't actually affect your ED XP in any way whatsover. So all I have to do is just go from 25 to 28, then when this becomes an option, just Iconic TR and start as a level 20 Iconic (level 15 + 55 ranks each time) and get back up to 28?

Which do you think is most likely? Given the alternatives, the only one that makes sense to me is that you can Epic TR into an Iconic, and if you Epic TR as an Iconic you gain the Iconic Past Life Feat and the ED Past Life Feat, in the same way that others would gain the Class Past Life Feat and the ED Past Life Feat.

Lets call it the Goldilocks principle: One is unthinkable, the other is too easy, but one of them is just right.

[Deadlock]

ETR grants the Epic PL and Class PL (just like heroic)...

Since one of the design goals is to "Introduce Iconics into the TR cycle", I read that as the Iconic PL will be treated the same as a Class PL... (Thus, everyone's about to lose completionist until they do 4 more lives, which are basically another Pally, Rogue, Cleric, and Fighter life... but hey, don't fuss about that, cuz they might Take Away All Destiny XP! My friends in game development call this "a duck"... something glaringly wrong that you know is going to illicit feedback so the questionable thing you want in there slides through.)

Iconics aren't traditional classes and won't affect the Completionist Feat. We might end up with some sort of Iconic Completionist Feat in the future to add to our Completionist and Epic Completionist, but I don't see this as something we need to worry about right now.

[count_spicoli]

agree all other changes look good. reducing grind on tr lives is groovy. Would be happy if you just took iq cannith(this one especially-elite runs really are just not worth the pitiful xp output here) and amaranth and made the xp they give out 3 times as good. would solve alot of the problem.

But removing destiny xp upon tr is just plain stupid. Not sure what you guys are thinking here. That is really out of touch with your player base to even suggest such a lame idea. DO NOT DO THIS> this would be death to this game!!!!

[THAC0]

Hmm... not too sure about this... I just got 5 chars back to 20+...and not looking forward to another round of TRs.

How about you guys do an update that is just bug fixes? Then worry about introducing enhancements, TR revamps or whatever else is on your white board of ideas over at Turbine.

Just say'n...

T.

[Deadlock]

One concern, other than the obvious loss of ED XP, is for people who spent real $ on Keys of Fate to unlock other destinies. Will these be wasted when you EDTR?

If they only sold a handful of these then I suspect they will be wasted. The better alternative would be to refund the TP that people paid for them as a one-time deal and add a disclaimer that in future they will be lost when you Epic TR.

Tomes of Fate, you would still retain the extra Fate Points just like any other Tomes, so can't see that being a problem.

[Uidolon]

doesnt matter if epic TR removes EDs its like when tomes didnt carry over with TR its just a matter of time before its changed just wait it out.

[Silverleafeon]

Yip that's how I'm reading it.

Just those two points in the section about Epic Destiny TRing.

If that's not the intention and Iconic TRing is completely different from Epic TRing then, Houston, we have a major problem.

It would mean that having already done 40 lives, I will now have to do another 11 just to lock in my ED XP, but gaining absolutely no benefit apart from Epic Completionist because I've already maxed out my Past Life Feats. And then have the opportunity to do another 12 Iconic Lives?

Nah, can't be how it's intended.

Or are we saying that Iconic TRing is different completely from Epic TRing and it won't actually affect your ED XP in any way whatsover. So all I have to do is just go from 25 to 28, then when this becomes an option, just Iconic TR and start as a level 20 Iconic (level 15 + 55 ranks each time) and get back up to 28?

Which do you think is most likely? Given the alternatives, the only one that makes sense to me is that you can Epic TR into an Iconic, and if you Epic TR as an Iconic you gain the Iconic Past Life Feat and the ED Past Life Feat, in the same way that others would gain the Class Past Life Feat and the ED Past Life Feat.

Lets call it the Goldilocks principle: One is unthinkable, the other is too easy, but one of them is just right.

Ok, if that is so, I am a lot more comfortable with the whole thing.

Fawngate has her 40 lives, I want her to do Iconics, if I get Epic Destiny Past life as well, that is a bonus.

If my Epic Destiny Xp is going to blown up, well some heroic for it is a bonus.
I am however very concerned about others regarding this matter.

If we can retain our unlocking of epic destinies and gain additional fate points, that would be nice.
I would hope our fate point counter will pile up, epic destiny levels earned / 3 = fate points.

If we can have an extra new twist slot as we gain Epic Destiny Binding, that would be sweet.
Say one new twist slot for every ??? Epic Destinies Bound.

I would be ok with keeping the twist cap at tier 4, if we get more twist slots every so often.



;;;;;;;




So maybe something like this:

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
"Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

You can reply yes or no.

If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
{The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

If you heroic TR, everything else remains the same.

Iconic TRing allows you to TR into an Iconic Class without
binding any Epic Destinies.

If you are Epic TRing then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.

[Gremmlynn]

I think EDs should reset for an ETR, but maybe as another poster suggested, you get to lock in an additional ED per ETR.That is basically how the proposed system would work. Every time you ETR you would choose one destiny to gain an EDPL in and permanently bond. All levels in unbonded destinies would be lost. The only time one wouldn't get a new bonded destiny on a ETR would be if they either already had them all bonded or chose to gain a second EDPL feat in a destiny instead of bonding another. So, 11 ETRs and all current destinies can be locked in.

I think most of the doom we are seeing is more related to the really bad system we got last year and the betrayal being felt by those of us that actually used it. It's akin to being told if we remove 5000 tons of manure from a field with a teaspoon we would be able to forever after play there and then being told they changed their minds after we are done. Or to put it into DDO terms, a new improved TR system that removes all former past lives when it's used...but you get to start one rank higher on your next life for every past life you lose as compensation.

[Tscheuss]

I'll start by saying that I have only reached page 12 in reading, so far. It seems this thread may be growing faster than I can read. lol

My first thought upon reading the OP was why not give those who have already maxed two or more ED's the PL's to go with them when the change goes live?

Or, since it is a TR thing, grant an ED PL and bonding for as many maxed ED's a toon has for each Heroic PL that toon has upon going live.

However you do it, devs, it would be nice if you didn't take everyone's maxed ED's upon TR without appropriate recompense.

Please?

[Chette]

I have to say that I find the epic destiny TR option to be incredibly unappealing.

True Reincarnation is indeed simply another thing to grind for many people, accruing past lives. But many don't do it just for the past life, they do it because they don't like their current build, they want to change their race, or their class, or something like this. They reincarnate, they play through the game gaining completely new experience as a different character, and when they get to 20-25 they are at the exact same power level they were when they TRed. The TR system was a system for new experiences, that could be ground out by people looking to squeek out every last possibly benefit for a character, if they so desired, while at the same time getting to try out new builds and have new experiences.

Epic destiny TR on the other hand is nothing but a grind fest. There is no "new adventure" there. It is nothing like the concept for the heroic TR. You gain a past life feat, but you don't gain a new experience. Nothing about your character changes. And in the process you give up a MASSIVE amount of epic destiny experience if you have all of your epic destinies maxed out, as the sort of people willing to grind for more passive benefits likely would.

You're shooting yourself in the foot here Turbine. This system provides nothing new for the casual player, and sacrifices too much past grinding for the power gamer. As a former power gamer, now somewhere in the middle, I can't see myself participating in it at all.

[350zguy]

With the inflation of adding 8 more levels, and epic destinies, the idea of a TR seems silly to me now.

It seems that any TR below level 28, wiping out ALL your ED progress is just flat out silly.

If you haven't bought EDs, then nothing changes, who cares. If you have bought EDs, you lose them all, and still get the bonus as if you didn't touch them. Seems like a bad idea...all round.

If you were to just rest ED independent of other XP, then sure give some token feat that is about as **** poor as the current system. I'd do that! Because its easier to re-grind an ED then it is to get 20 again, and the bonus should be in line with what you lost/gain. The current bonus isn't worth a TR. But EDs are easier, and may be worth a bonus along those lines.

[Silverleafeon]

One concern, other than the obvious loss of ED XP, is for people who spent real $ on Keys of Fate to unlock other destinies. Will these be wasted when you EDTR?Unlocking of epic destinies should definitely be preserved after any TR.

[Demsac]

I didn't read the whole thread cause it's huge and didn't see dev comment about this. If it's been answer please link!


If the epic destiny gives the same feat as the heroic does that mean they do not stack pass the 3rd and would it give access to completionist?

Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)

Also, would our current lives be able to qualify for epic destiny TR?

[Silverleafeon]

If the epic destiny gives the same feat as the heroic does that mean they do not stack pass the 3rd and would it give access to completionist?

Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)That part is poorly written.
It has been decided by us little people that they mean, you gain whatever past life
you deserver for your current life along with an Epic Past life.

Also, would our current lives be able to qualify for epic destiny TR?
We hope so.

There is a serious flaw with all TRing eliminating all Epic Destinies xp.
It is possible that is a duck hunt smoke screen, and the Devs intend to concede
on that point immediately to pass the rest thru. Or it is possible they just
thought it was a good idea, but no one here likes it.




Here is an example of what I would like to see:


So maybe something like this:

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
"Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

You can reply yes or no.

If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
{The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

If you heroic TR, everything else remains the same.

Iconic TRing allows you to TR into an Iconic Class without
binding any Epic Destinies.

If you are Epic TRing then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.

[HAL]

First, we were assured by Turbine that we could safely get all the Epic Destinies we wanted because they would not be lost with a True Resurrection.

Second, many people purchased items with money in the DDO store in order to help them get the Destinies they wanted.

It's really underhanded to tell people they won't lose something and sell them items to help them gain it and then turn around and take it away anyway.

Finally, anyone who doesn't like the idea of losing their Epic Destinies with TR logically has to stop working on Epic Destinies RIGHT NOW or decide that they will never TR that character.

Even if Turbine comes back with a statement that they decided not to go forward with the idea of losing ED on TR why would anyone believe them? Turbine assured us once already that it wouldn't happen and yet they gave us this.

Also: who thought that trading a ED rank for a Heroic level 1- rank was somehow equitable? I mean even casual players can get through the first few levels in a few hours (say one game session). As a casual player it took me more than one game session to get one ED rank.

[Silverleafeon]

First, we were assured by Turbine that we could safely get all the Epic Destinies we wanted because they would not be lost with a True Resurrection.

Second, many people purchased items with money in the DDO store in order to help them get the Destinies they wanted.

It's really underhanded to tell people they won't lose something and sell them items to help them gain it and then turn around and take it away anyway.I agree.
DM rule number one is don't take candy away from players.
I learned that the hard way long ago with marvel super heroes RPG

Finally, anyone who doesn't like the idea of losing their Epic Destinies with TR logically has to stop working on Epic Destinies RIGHT NOW or decide that they will never TR that character.Brought up in party chat today.
Its not often the forums are discussed in game as much as today was.

Even if Turbine comes back with a statement that they decided not to go forward with the idea of losing ED on TR why would anyone believe them? Turbine assured us once already that it wouldn't happen and yet they gave us this.I'm hoping its a duck hunt and the devs were not serious about it, or that they wanted imput on the subject. I recall once Madfloyd offered to reduce the xp between 18 and 20 for
legend lives if Heroic TR cap was set to 25. We told him no thank you and that was the end of that.

Also: who thought that trading a ED rank for a Heroic level 1- rank was somehow equitable? I mean even casual players can get through the first few levels in a few hours (say one game session). As a casual player it took me more than one game session to get one ED rank.

I agree, if Epic Advantage become voluntary as seen below, how much heroic xp should we get from an ed rank?



After reading thru much of this lengthy thread proposing maybe something like this:

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
"Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

You can reply yes or no.

If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
{The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

If you heroic TR, everything else remains the same.

Iconic TRing allows you to TR into an Iconic Class without
binding any Epic Destinies.

If you are Epic TRing then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.

[hit_fido]

For what it's worth I logged in to voice my opinion on the matter of Heroic TR and destiny-wide XP wipe.

I can live with wail not working over a couple updates and patches. I can live with goofy explanations for why XP pots in the DDO store are "redundant" and need removed. I can live with, frequently even embrace, periodic changes to game systems like two weapon fighting, armor class, spell power, enhancements...

But if you wipe all my epic destiny xp, destiny levels and fate points upon Heroic TR, then I don't foresee ever TRing again. If I am not going to TR again, then I suspect this game will rapidly become dead to me. There is no xp adjustment or past life structure I can fathom you introducing that will make it more attractive to throw away the last year's worth of effort and time investment put into the game. I am not outright rejecting the choice to Epic TR with destiny XP loss. I am specifically rejecting any combination of Heroic TR with destiny XP loss. As a matter of principle, everything I heard from you guys on destiny XP has been positioned as permanent through (heroic) TR.

I recognize others may find this attractive. That is fine, I do not argue they are mistaken. For me and the way I enjoy the game, it is a show stopper. Tally one opinion in that column and do what you think is best for the game, if it ends up being the proposed system I wont fault you for it. But I cannot imagine any circumstance where I'd be willing to throw that effort away and reinvest time in a game whose producer thinks it is acceptable to reverse course on prior commitments regarding the permanence of something like destiny XP. And you evidently could decide to throw it all away again when you bump level cap up to 32. You simply do not have enough genuinely different content post 20 to make it interesting (to me) to level destinies through several lives again in the same way the road from 1-20 can be fun on different builds. You aren't going to anytime soon.

If I misunderstood the OP and Heroic TR will not be connected with any destiny xp loss, then nevermind.

PS - Please fix Wail.

[Silverleafeon]

So we have a new debate on our hands... And I have a suggestion.

For those whom have not read hours of posting on the forum, let me simplify:

Turbine is proposing (and it will likely be implemented as is or not too differently) that upon EPIC TRing, at level 28 (which will be quite a few million xp more) a player would lose all ED xp/level save for one (1) ED per TR'ing (each additional TR'ing allowing a player to add another "saved" ED), in exchange for Heroics ranks (ie starting next live higher and higher every EPIC TR).

My opinion... This post is not about my opinion! It is about ALL of the players that have maxed out all ED's under the current system... And it is also about all the other players that have simply done more than maxing one (1) ED... Under the current proposal, they would ALL lose all but one (1) ED upon EPIC TR'ing.

For those who like numbers, eleven (11) maxed out ED is 21,780,000 xp. That's 18,780,000 above the level 25 cap, which is the natural xp cap atm.

How to re-conciliate the two? Turbine's proposal and 18,780,000 ED xp loss?!?

Well, what of an xp credit of some sort?

A bit like the xp granted to ICONICS (ie the system to grant "free xp" has been in existence since Turbine introduced Veteran status)... Grant ALL players, upon their first EPIC TR, a one-time xp credit equal to the amount of EPIC xp they have accumulated above 3,000,000!

For some, this might allow them to reach lvl 10, or 18 or even maybe level 25... Some may have enough xp for hit level 28 (unless it requires a gazillion xp to reach... who knows lol).

What concrete examples?

Joe Blow, the first liver half-orc barbarian, has reached level 25 (3,000,000 xp)... he also earned, doing ED other than Fury of the Wild, 6,000,000 xp.

Joe Blow purchases Shadowfell expansion and early September 2013 finally reaches level 28, after earning 3,600,000 additional EPIC xp.

Joe Blow decides to reincarnate using the EPIC TR system, and not the Heroic TR system... He selects Fury of the Wild has his EPIC ED for TR purpose (thus earning a Fury of the Wild TR feat as proposed by Turbine)...

Upon completing his TR, Joe Blow appears on the skyship... With a credit of 6,000,000xp from his "lost ED's"...

So what does that translate into? 3,139,250 will level Joe Blow to Heroic level 20 (second life)... and then he will have enough to reach level 24 Epic, a little short of level 25...

That's it for Joe Blow!!!

BUT what of Uberfred the Warforged Sorcerer who has maxed out ALL ED's? Does he get a 18,780,000 xp credit? If so, what does this translate into? Let's do the math for Uberfred. Assume he is also a first lifer.

First EPIC TR... Level 20? 3,139,250xp... Level 25? Another 3,000,000... Now comes the good part... Level 28? Using Turbine progression curve for 20-25, level 26 will likely require 1,050,000xp, level 27 1,200,000xp and 1,350,000xp... So Uberfred will have used 9,739,250 to reach level 28... AND that's based on the assumption that Turbine will not apply an increase to exp requirements for level 20 to 28 for second and third lifers... which they may very do. If they do, Uberfred might just have enough to get a free ride to level 28 ONCE, and nothing else.

If Turbine does not curve up level 20-28 xp requirements, Uberfred will have 9,040,750xp left... And Uberfred can do a second EPIC TR.

Second EPIC TR... Level 20? 4,378,500xp (third life)... Level 25? Another 3,000,000 (assuming no increase in xp requirements for 20-28)... Uberfred has 1,662,250xp left... Enough to reach level 26 and half way to level 27... Again assuming no xp requirements increase by Turbine. Even with no xp requirements increase, no way can Uberfred get more than one (1) EPIC TR from all the xp accumulated maxing out ALL existing ED's in the game.

CONCLUSION: A system like this one would result most likely, since Turbine is likely to increase xp requirements for levels 20 to 28 for TR'ed players, in a single "free" reincarnation (ie they would thus have two "saved" ED's and two EPIC feats) for players that maxed out ALL ED's. For many other players, those who may have maxed a few more ED's, it might result in a good boost toward a second EPIC TR... nothing more. NOT game breaking, and yet a fair acknowledgment of the "accumulated xp" that players would lose under Turbine's proposal.

Anyway this is just an idea but I wanted to share it. I love this game. Since Beta. And would hate to see die due to players quitting because they feel cheated. I hope my suggestion, or any other suggestion, can hope solve this "necessary" transition to a bigger and, hopefully, better game.

Very interesting thoughts there.

[Silverleafeon]

For what it's worth I logged in to voice my opinion on the matter of Heroic TR and destiny-wide XP wipe.

I can live with wail not working over a couple updates and patches. I can live with goofy explanations for why XP pots in the DDO store are "redundant" and need removed. I can live with, frequently even embrace, periodic changes to game systems like two weapon fighting, armor class, spell power, enhancements...Nods understandingly...


But if you wipe all my epic destiny xp, destiny levels and fate points upon Heroic TR, then I don't foresee ever TRing again. If I am not going to TR again, then I suspect this game will rapidly become dead to me. There is no xp adjustment or past life structure I can fathom you introducing that will make it more attractive to throw away the last year's worth of effort and time investment put into the game. I am not outright rejecting the choice to Epic TR with destiny XP loss. I am specifically rejecting any combination of Heroic TR with destiny XP loss. As a matter of principle, everything I heard from you guys on destiny XP has been positioned as permanent through (heroic) TR.Nods sadly...


I recognize others may find this attractive. That is fine, I do not argue they are mistaken.A very few want the option to blow up their epic destiny xp (which exactly what epic disadvantage does) simply to be able to grind/farm more fate points. All of these few acknowledge that this is totally unfair to others.

For me and the way I enjoy the game, it is a show stopper.Nods solemnly and tries to look wise...

Tally one opinion in that column and do what you think is best for the game, if it ends up being the proposed system I wont fault you for it. But I cannot imagine any circumstance where I'd be willing to throw that effort away and reinvest time in a game whose producer thinks it is acceptable to reverse course on prior commitments regarding the permanence of something like destiny XP.Shudders and wonders...

And you evidently could decide to throw it all away again when you bump level cap up to 32. You simply do not have enough genuinely different content post 20 to make it interesting (to me) to level destinies through several lives again in the same way the road from 1-20 can be fun on different builds. You aren't going to anytime soon.Pauses to wonder what will happen at level cap 32?

If I misunderstood the OP and Heroic TR will not be connected with any destiny xp loss, then nevermind.

PS - Please fix Wail.You did not misunderstand.
Everyone I talked to is shocked and upset about this.



After reading thru much of this lengthy thread proposing maybe something like this:

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
"Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

You can reply yes or no.

If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
{The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

If you heroic TR, everything else remains the same.

Iconic TRing allows you to TR into an Iconic Class without
binding any Epic Destinies.

If you are Epic TRing then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.

[Silverleafeon]

Turbine can I get my money back for my purchase of the expansion? I am willing to return any gifts in the standard package which I purchased. I talked myself into purchasing the $30.00 expansion what I can say. I like many others am really disappointed in the decision that all the epic destiny previously earned will disappear upon a true reincarnation except for one destiny. I worked hard to earn all of that xp. This decision negatively affects nearly every one of my guildies and friends in game.

I think there should be an option that I and others out there who have purchased the expansion can return our purchase and get our money back. I find the decision to sell the expansion 3 weeks prior to this epic destiny xp announcement disinguous on Turbine's part. I am serious about this and not renewing my subscription.

Thanks,

A Customer

Nods in great sympathy.

I think I'll keep mine Owl Bear cause I love pets, but I understand your feelings in this matter.

[Silverleafeon]

/tinfoil hat on

Making two unpopular changes at the same time, to split opposition to them and possibly to gain sympathy when you dial a little back on one of them.

/tinfoil hat off

/tinfoil hat off

/tinfoil hat OFF

Meh, I think I'm bugged.
Decoy Duck to hunt here?
Alpha pass to tight on purpose?

Hmm...maybe that is their game...its all a bit over my head.

[Silverleafeon]

Is there really even a debate? All I saw was a thread on what they plan to do with the epic TR system, and a metric ton of "aww heel naaaw" style feedback similar to madstone boots debacle.

The famous Chai speaks on the subject.

[Silverleafeon]

This was my thought too- My wife and I look to play the game, we are NOT interested in getting Completionist (or playing classes that we don't want to play just to get other Past Lives).
Epic Destinies (as they are currently) offer some semblance of usefulness without grinding out 15 lives of classes we are not good at.
I think the closer this gets, we'll just TR prior to implementation (in order to get some characters to 36 pt) and then just park our mains at cap.

Nods in great sympathy at being painted into a corner.




After reading thru much of this lengthy thread proposing maybe something like this:

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
"Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

You can reply yes or no.

If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
{The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

If you heroic TR, everything else remains the same.

Iconic TRing allows you to TR into an Iconic Class without
binding any Epic Destinies.

If you are Epic TRing then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.

[Silverleafeon]

I would like my TP back for the Key of Destiny that I bought with the understanding that Epic Destinies actually stick around. Since I'm going to be losing all of my Epic Destinies and Fate Points and that unlock I bought is going to vanish, I'd like those TP back.

I'm just glad that I didn't spend any TP on XP pots and other consumables to level all of the Epic Destinies that I leveled.If fate points and unlocking of the epic destiny map are lost, others may join your appeal. Every time we level up those epic destinies earning fate points they ought to be ours to keep regardless of the past.

[Silverleafeon]

...This Epic TR thing, made me cancel my sub yesterday--first time since March 2006.

People say that we have a choice to TR....I think that they are forgetting that Turbine makes character breaking decisions.

Nods in great sympathy.

[Silverleafeon]

I don't have a single ED maxed out toon. However I would like the option to Heroic TR in the future. But losing even a single ED would just guarantee that I never TR another character. In fact that whole system they've laid out pretty much assures that I and I imagine a large number of players will never participate in it.

Nods solemnly and tries to look wise, but fails as halflings never are taken seriously...




After reading thru much of this lengthy thread proposing maybe something like this:

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
"Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

You can reply yes or no.

If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
{The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

If you heroic TR, everything else remains the same.

Iconic TRing allows you to TR into an Iconic Class without
binding any Epic Destinies.

If you are Epic TRing then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.

[sir_smacks_alot]

I don't speak for anyone other than myself. I personally will lose interest in the game very quickly if this goes live as is. Reason being I don't sit and grind epic destiny xp but have done it over multiple lives 1 or 2 destinies per life. Now you are telling me that I did those all in vain and would have to epic TR to get what I already have the next time I get bored with a toon. Personally I would have been fine with this a year ago. I would have either A done the epic TR then, or B ignored all in favor of just heroic lives and ignored the entire system. now that I have spent month after month dong a couple of epic destinies per life to have them all when I finally decide to stay at cap for a bit as I have done on the past 5 toons to get all capped sot hat I could work on my last toon I will now be forced to do it all again if I don't stay capped from now on. Well that is the final nail in the coffin for me. This would be a big loss if more people who are as active as I am feel as I do. not sure how any others feelabout this idea, but ido know that iwill completely quit and find another game once im tired of playing the little bit of content I have left at that point.

[serenityangel]

First, we were assured by Turbine that we could safely get all the Epic Destinies we wanted because they would not be lost with a True Resurrection. (he means Reincarnation, heroic TR)

Second, many people purchased items with money in the DDO store in order to help them get the Destinies they wanted.

It's really underhanded to tell people they won't lose something and sell them items to help them gain it and then turn around and take it away anyway.

Finally, anyone who doesn't like the idea of losing their Epic Destinies with TR logically has to stop working on Epic Destinies RIGHT NOW or decide that they will never TR that character.

Even if Turbine comes back with a statement that they decided not to go forward with the idea of losing ED on TR why would anyone believe them? Turbine assured us once already that it wouldn't happen and yet they gave us this.

Also: who thought that trading a ED rank for a Heroic level 1- rank was somehow equitable? I mean even casual players can get through the first few levels in a few hours (say one game session). As a casual player it took me more than one game session to get one ED rank.

+1

I agree 100%! Now Turbine look at our join dates, 2006, your veteran core players.

[SamuelTheFree]

My first impression upon reading the OP was very similar to the main theme I see reading the thread.
To summarize, as presented, this would remove all incentive for me to do any more TRs of any sort.
Also I do not think it is fair to punish those who worked hard to cap so many destinies under the current system.
On the other hand I realize that the grind for Ultimate Completionist should be a large scale and very daunting endeavor.

So I took some time to calm down, think and analyze the situation and I think there does not have to be very many big changes to make this work.
One thing that struck me was that by the time you reach level 28, you could have 3 destinies capped.
This means that even if all the epic destiny is reset, by the time you are done grinding Epic past lives you have more than earned the XP back multiple time so the real grind is for epic levels now, not for destinies as the destinies will fill themselves out on the way to 28.

As I see it there are some groups of people whose needs are not addressed with these changes:

People who are happy with their ED's but not done their Heroic TR plans
People who have earned a large numbers of ED's
People who want large numbers of Heroic Past Life feats
People using iconic characters who want Epic Past lives


To address these concerns I would suggest minor tweaks as follows:

Heroic True Reincarnation

Heroic TR remains unchanged at level 20 or above
Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
No benefit from Epic Advantage
No resetting of Epic XP


Epic Destiny True Reincarnation

Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
Feat based on selection of a maximized Epic Destiny
Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build
Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x if currently an iconic character
Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR) if not an iconic character
Earns ranks from Epic Advantage
Resets all ED XP except for any destinies that have a Karmic Bond from a previous past life
Fate points are not carried over to next life, except for fate points from tomes and levels of ED's protected by Karmic Bonds


Notice I combined Iconic TRs into Epic TRs, just seemed less confusing that way, plus really anyone who gets to level 28 should get to bond an ED even if they started as iconic.

This still leaves us with an immense grind to fill all the options, but it does so without limiting players so drastically.

This does leave one key group mentioned earlier still affected, those who have already capped a large number of Epic Destinies and would like to participate with the Epic TRs without losing out on the benefits of their hard work getting to where they are now.
For these players I think it would be fair to give them what they would deserve had they performed Epic TR's in the middle of their grind ED's.

In short for existing characters with at least 1 capped Epic Destiny when the system is released allow them to use Karmic Bond on an appropriate number of Destinies and let them keep their XP on an appropriate number of destinies. However only allow this once, the first time the character does an Epic TR. See the below for my recommendations:


1 Capped ED = 1 Karmic Bond
2 Capped ED's = 1 Karmic Bond
3 Capped ED's = 1 Karmic Bond
4 Capped ED's = 1 Karmic Bond + 1 ED XP carried over
5 Capped ED's = 2 Karmic Bond + 1 ED XP carried over
6 Capped ED's = 2 Karmic Bond + 1 ED XP carried over
7 Capped ED's = 2 Karmic Bond + 1 ED XP carried over
8 Capped ED's = 2 Karmic Bond + 2 ED XP carried over
9 Capped ED's = 3 Karmic Bond + 2 ED XP carried over
10 Capped ED's = 3 Karmic Bond + 2 ED XP carried over
11 Capped ED's = 3 Karmic Bond + 3 ED XP carried over


To get the following numbers I compared a projected 6.6 million epic XP to get to level 28 with 1.98 million XP per destiny.
For example 11 capped destinies currently is 21.78 million XP. Which is enough to potentially reach level 28 three times and bond 3 different destinies. There is also enough XP available to level those three destinies back to cap during the process.

If this type of one time benefit could be designed it would allow everyone to decide whether or not to participate in the new grind for Epic XP without forcing people to change their plans.

PS. 12 Epic TRs at 6.6 million XP + 39 more per heroic class means there is an awful lot of potential lives now. Even starting at level 12 there could be 3 million xp per heroic life for a grand total of nearly 200 million xp to get all available past life feats. Good luck to any who attempt it.

Sorry for being so long winded, and hope the Turbine forum readers have time to sift through all the responses to look at the ideas presented. Among all the concerns there have been a large number of good ideas as well.

[Furbitor]

Really for people that have one or 2 maxed destines and not many levels in the other destinies this is meh but okay, for the rest of us we are being screwed over hard and fast.

Basically there's no point in doing any epics right now for destiny levels unless you haven't run any yet. It is basically them wiping all our maxed out destines with no reward.

... after the fact that a large amount of the players base has achieved it, and making them lose it by removing previous lives they have done and saying, to bad so sorry regrind them.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA :D


OMG its sooo funny. I am falling over with glee, seeing all those ED grinders Lose lose Lose.

I remember when they nerfed firewalls, when they nerfed clerics, when they nerfed rangers, Barbarians, and so on.

Now they nerfing everyone. you became too strong fer yer britches. Now after we hit level 28, nobody without all capped ED's will be able to play anything but epic casual.

I think I am gonna be sick...
/sarcasm off

[mikarddo]

Greetings

Some people prefer the 1-20 game.
Some people prefer the 21+ game.
Some people like both the heroic levels and the epic levels.
Some people have already done the Heroic levels as many times as they want possibly even reaching Completionist (or 3x that for the most hardcore)
Some people have done much ED xp already possibly maxing out all 11 EDs
Some people dont chain TR back to back but like to TR, level up and actually stay for a longer time at the highest level experiencing the new class / ED.

Whatever system you decide you would do well not to needlessly alienate any of the groups mentioned above but rather be something flexible enough to suit everyone.

Here is what you should do:

1. Heroic TR.
- reset to level 1 / Epic Advantage acting as a Veteran "buff", so the player can stop anywhere in the process at the level he/she prefers.
- dont reset ED xp at all.
- give a Heroic Past Life feat

2. Epic TR
- reset to level 20 acting as a Veteran 20 "buff". This, however, adds a 14 day timer on doing a heroic TR to prevent using Epic TR to change classes and then immediately heroic TR in the class changed into.
- dont give a Heroic Past Life feat
- give an Epic Past Life feat (whatever those turn out to be)
- reset ED xp but keep points of faith and unlocked destinies (add any reasonable system to prevent unlimited accumulation of points of faith)
- bond one maxed ED with the Karmic Bonding

3. Combined Heroic + Epic TR
- reset to level 1 / Epic Advantage acting as a Veteran "buff", so the player can stop anywhere in the process at the level he/she prefers.
- give a Heroic Past Life feat
- give an Epic Past Life feat (whatever those turn out to be)
- reset ED xp but keep points of faith and unlocked destinies (add any reasonable system to prevent unlimited accumulation of points of faith)
- bond one maxed ED with the Karmic Bonding

4. Iconic TR
Whatever you think is right - its too early to tell for me. But definitely
- Keep points of faith and unlocked destinies nomatter what.

With that in place anyone can decide for themselves how they want to play without being painted into a corner where most options are unappealing. You can chain heroic TR, chain epic TR or chain both without penalty - or you can stay at max level for a while before doing a TR again without undue penalty.

[Tscheuss]

Interesting point. The problem with making it an option is that you'll inevitably have people crying foul that they accidentally chose the wrong option because Turbine failed to make it clear enough for them. Maybe when you Heroic TR or Epic TR as well as having to type in your character name you either have to type in "I want to start at rank 1" or "I want to start with advantage"? gives people the choice that way.

Or maybe just start them the same way a new toon is started when Veteran status is unlocked. That mechanic is already in use. :)

[mikarddo]

double post, ignore

[Tscheuss]

This is a terrible terrible idea. The current True Reincarnation system means that there are lots of existing players who are playing at low levels as their reincarnates. This provides a pool of people who can group with new players.

I always thought the TR system was an awesome way of keeping the low level game alive and the low level game draws in new players

Here is how to do it in a player and game friendly way:
The Epic Advantage should be a "Stone if Epic Advantage" type thing. It should have a number of charges equal to my Epic Destiny ranks when I TR. I can use the stone to take a Heroic Rank whenever I like. If I want to use it at level 1, then great, if I want to save it up to use at level 16 to power me up to 20 then let me.

Upon TRing any existing Stone of Epic Advantage in my inventory/cache/bank should be destroyed before the new one is granted. (or get Kruz to check and make sure I don't have one).

This is a practical idea. I would +1 you if I could (or knew how) :D

[Tscheuss]

Then reverse the change made to Tomes of Ability so we lose used +4 and +5 Tomes on TR. :)

Thou shalt not tempt the Devs. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared003.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[djl]

If they proceed with the way it is currently planned, it will be the death of the game. Here is my reasoning for that:

If they proceed in this manner, it will make assembling a group for EH/EE quests very difficult because people will be at so many different levels. You'll have people who didn't TR at all, people in the midst of various stages of Epic TR, and a bunch of people going through heroic TR. And ultimately, everyone will end up quitting because the dozens of new TRs that completionists need will prove overwhelming, and the endgame players will find themselves unable to form any quality groups due to how diversified the levels are, so they will grow frustrated with the game as well.

The systems MUST be separated: leave heroic TRing alone. Keep it as it is, for the people who like TRing. Save the ED resets for Epic/Iconic TRs only.

And for Epic TRs, each ED level should compensate more than just a single rank. Fully maxed EDs are 19 MILLION experience, a LOT of people feel they are being ripped off by only getting a few ranks out of all that.

[Tscheuss]

Yay!

I finally made it to page 21.


<yawn> Time for some sleep.

[Singular]

Thank you for being open with us players - that's good.

Clearly, a lot of players, including myself, are worried about losing all the time we've spent grinding out EDs for fate points. Please take their thoughts into consideration before the revamp to TRing, especially alternative suggestions including keeping 1. fate points and 2. unlocked trees.

Second, I like the idea of gaining passive ED feats after completing an ED and TRing. However, I'm disturbed by the notion of "bonding" EDs. Though it sounds like a good idea, it will result in me not playing in my preferred ED, which will turn my Epic TR lives into mere grinds, rather than the satisfying escapism which I seek here.

For example, let's say my preferred ED is Fury of the Wild. So I max that, then bond it, then TR to get the passive feat. On my next life, Fury is capped and I have some useful benefit that adds to it. I have a choice: I could use Fury to level up to 28, then grind out a second ED to TR in and bond or I could level up in a different ED to bond. The first choice allows me to continue enjoying the synergy between my favorite ED and my class, but prevents me from gaining ED XP. The second choice prevents me from enjoying my class/ED combo, but earns me another past life feat. Sadly, I then have to do this over and over again, preventing me from enjoying my preferred class/ED for the majority of my gaming time.

So the system needs revisiting unless you are hoping to force players into unfavorable and disliked class/ED combinations - that seems ridiculous, since the point of this game is to enjoy it. Any system that forces you away from your favorite class is not promoting enjoyment, but perseverance.

[Singular]

Let me provide a more specific alternate suggestion:

Epic Destiny True Reincarnation, version 2.0



Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
You must have a maximized ED to complete this TR
Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat


Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny


Destiny XP is reset to zero for the active, maximized Epic Destiny

Other Destinies are not affected


Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


Nice! I think you solved the problem I voiced above.

[DDOForumAccount]

Throwing an expanded idea on top of other posts already made.

Heroic TR: As before, don't touch destinies.

Epic TR: Two-tier action.
1) Current active destiny is bound. You can use any of your bound destinies as the active destiny even when collecting exp for the others in the future. And naturally, you get the destiny feat for that one.

2) Non-active destinies are set as ghost-destinies. You have as many ghost-points there as before, and if you make that the active destiny, you can spend the points there as you like. You don't get the autogrant features until you convert all the ghost-points to actual destiny points, but you still have the already-grinded selectable destiny features available, making things much more fun the second time around.

3) Fate points. That's details to be hammered, but if you epic tr, you're bound to lose something.

4) Flat exp from destiny tiers. As you don't really really lose them, no need for this. Maybe grant exp-bonus for the next life or whatever. Please please, let me start at the same level as my other friends doing TR at the same time regardless of the destiny exp. And, getting 1-3 levels for a few lost destinies is even bigger slap in the face than getting 10-11 for a full set.

[Deadlock]

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

I don't really undestand this part. If you bond a Destiny and gain the Epic Destiny Past Life Feat for it, why would it's XP be reset to zero? The idea of bonding it is to make it permanent.

The way they've currently described it makes more sense to me. You choose the destiny that you want to keep and make permanent, it locks in those levels and you then have that destiny available to twist in as you progress through the next one.

They way you've described it, I would cap a destiny, gain the past-life for it, but then have to re-level it and it wouldn't be available to twist? So if you were a new character just coming into ED's for the first time, you would cap your first destiny and then spread the rest of your ED XP across other destinies in the same sphere, maybe across into another sphere, and then when you Epic TR you would lose everything from the one that you capped, but you would be left with the remnants from the other destinies? So when you get back to 20 again, you would be able to start in any of the others that you still had some XP in? Is that what the benefit would be?

The only other problem with the idea that you only ever lose one destiny at a time is that from a system point of view, there's no progression in it.

The idea that you bond a destiny, then a second, then a third and you gain these advantage ranks in your next life does kind of work, where 1 bonded ED basically equates to a Heroic level. I understand the problem that your first Epic TR to a standard Class would see you start at level 2 .... whoop-de-doo, you've just saved yourself doing Haverdashers EHN and Recovering the Lost Tome on Elite .... 15 minutes if you're counting all the butterflies? Not much payback. But at least then it would progress that you would start at level 3, 4, 5 etc. The option to TR into an Iconic is more rewarding in that it lets you start at 16, 17, 18 so that you can lock in your destinies again.

[Deadlock]

I think most of the doom we are seeing is more related to the really bad system we got last year and the betrayal being felt by those of us that actually used it. It's akin to being told if we remove 5000 tons of manure from a field with a teaspoon we would be able to forever after play there and then being told they changed their minds after we are done. Or to put it into DDO terms, a new improved TR system that removes all former past lives when it's used...but you get to start one rank higher on your next life for every past life you lose as compensation.

You lost me at betrayal. Trying to use emotive language to describe something that has been in place for a year followed by a spurious analogy doesn't help your argument.

If you're going to use hyperbole to describe a problem, it would help your case if you then proposed a solution that people could perhaps agree with.

If you've previously posted a solution that has been buried somewhere in the 600 plus posts we're up to, it's probably worth repeating it. If your solution is "scrap it all" or "I hate everything" then it's probably not worth repeating.

[Deadlock]

First, we were assured by Turbine that we could safely get all the Epic Destinies we wanted because they would not be lost with a True Resurrection.

Second, many people purchased items with money in the DDO store in order to help them get the Destinies they wanted.

It's really underhanded to tell people they won't lose something and sell them items to help them gain it and then turn around and take it away anyway.

Tomes of Fate should persist through Epic TR as they are outside of the fate points calculated from your epic levels, don't see any problem with those.

Shears should have been reset as soon as it was realised how people were able to exploit them, characters who had paid for them should have got a TP refund and been de-sheared automatically when they next logged in.

Keys of Destiny are more complex. If they had been 95 TP then most people would say that they are disposable and you shouldn't expect to get anything for them, but maybe 995 TP is a different story. Then again, you could pay 1995 TP for 30 hours of 30% XP boost with the Sovereign Experience Elixir x5 bundle and you wouldn't expect to get that refunded. I think the other issue with these is that I would bet a pint or two that a Destiny doesn't record how it was unlocked, so there's no record in the system whether you unlocked it by having an adjacent destiny up to level 3 or whether you used a Key, so it might be impossible to determine who this affects.



Finally, anyone who doesn't like the idea of losing their Epic Destinies with TR logically has to stop working on Epic Destinies RIGHT NOW or decide that they will never TR that character.

Nah, trying to incite the masses isn't going to help here. If your character isn't in the destiny that you want for your current life, then it still makes sense to get it there and see how that works out for you, you can still farm for good gear and enjoy some higher level questing. We might see fewer Rusty Blade farms up, and that can only be a good thing for people's sanity. If you really do believe that this will go live with Heroic TRing resetting your ED XP despite all logic, then it's definitely a good time to get through those Heroic lives as best you can.


Even if Turbine comes back with a statement that they decided not to go forward with the idea of losing ED on TR why would anyone believe them? Turbine assured us once already that it wouldn't happen and yet they gave us this.

Tinfoil hat much? If you can't believe a word that Turbine say then maybe the OP by Producer Glin is a Bond-style master plan to out all the haters on the forums so they can add a -10 penalty to their Loot levels forever! Or maybe we just all agree that if we get a clear and unambiguous, non-marketing-speak statement that something will or won't happen then we accept it as being genuine?


Also: who thought that trading a ED rank for a Heroic level 1- rank was somehow equitable? I mean even casual players can get through the first few levels in a few hours (say one game session). As a casual player it took me more than one game session to get one ED rank.

You're talking about Epic TRing now in the system that we would like to see. If we agree that Heroic TR should not affect ED XP in any way then this is only relevant for Epic TRing. And if you choose to Epic TR then you've decided that you're happy with this. I do think that they're setting the bar very low with this as level 1 to 2 takes 15 minutes, so saving someone 15 minutes of time is insignificant. Maybe a better idea would be that if you had unlocked Veteran status (1000 favour) when you Epic TR you will start as a Level 4 character and then gain your Advantage ranks, and if you had unlocked Veteran II status (3000 favour) when you Epic TR you will start as a Level 7 character and then gain your Advantage ranks, and if you choose to Epic TR as an Iconic then you will start as a level 15 Iconic character and then gain your Advantage ranks. This seems a better option to me and gives you an additional incentive to broaden your horizons in a life. I've definitely done 3 day legend lives where I've had nowhere near 3000 favour.

EDIT: When you Epic TR you would basically start on the Heart of Wind - see post 646 below about making Advantage optional.

[Henky]

Again turbine shows us that they dont know how we play the game. Leave Heroic TR as always, dont touch it. And with Epic TR whatever, just make sure that loosing 18M of XP is worth.

[SirShen]

I was thinking EPIC TR was going to be just TR back to level 20 and level back up to level 28 and nothing todo with ED at all.

If this goes though i would like

1. Trees to remain open if you opened them that life.
2. Keep all your fate points that you worked for that life.

3. Heroic TR should stay as it is now, no loss on ED xp.

[Munkenmo]

How about this.

Forget all about Epic Advantage, it doesn't exist.

Heroic TR's = Same as on live now.
Iconic TR's = Treat like heroic TR's but cannot TR until level 25+

Epic TR's = Start at level 1 (with TR 1 leveling requirements). You sacrifice & bond the ED you want gain the past life from, and you cannot use / twist unbonded ED's again until you reach level 28

[Bitzie]

want to see if I understand this correctly
I have all ED's filled

I see the ED past life thing for say juggernaught is +2 damage and figure - this is nice ill get that one - all the rest not much interest to me

so I Epic TR
my first TR I start at rank 5 (so that has saved me around 60 seconds and 1 quest woohoo)
I work my way back to 28
ill prolly get to fill 3 ED's as part of this.
Then I need to refill my other 8 ED's to get to where I was again

so 1 ED past life = lvl 2 to 28 + 8 more ed's - north of 20 mil xp?

really?

if im misunderstanding the post just point out my mistake. Will go get another beer as punishment.

[Deadlock]

Or maybe just start them the same way a new toon is started when Veteran status is unlocked. That mechanic is already in use. :)

Adding more dialogue options and starting your character on the Heart of Wind instead of on Korthos beach but only when you Epic TR would seem to be a neat solution, good call.

https://imageshack.us/a/img46/8575/gi0z.jpg

So you'd maybe get something like this?

Give people all of the options and it's then up to them which one they want to choose.

But maybe add an "Are you sue you want to .... " when you select it, where there unfortunately isn't one now.

[Deadlock]

We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

If you wanted a simple proposal, do the following when you bond a Destiny:
1. You gain the Level 0 innate ability for that Destiny as a passive feat available to you at level 1
2. You gain 1 extra Fate Point
3. You gain 8 more points to spend in that tree

When you have all of them bonded:
1. You automatically gain the passive feat Epic Completionist which grants a stacking +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores.
2. You gain a 4th Twist Slot
3. You can now upgrade your Twist Slots to Tier 5

And while you're doing this, please make the Completionist feat an auto-grant. You'll make a lot of people happy and won't break the game in the process.

If you want extra fluff, how about the following:
Completionist: Show double-wings around a character's name
Epic Completionist: Add a flourish to the wings.
Triple Completionist: Make the name and wings and flourish golden.

[Hutoth]

http://www.takzu.com/cc_audio/KBarrel4.mp3

[slarden]

1) I assume that since an ED is locked once you epic TR it means you can gain the epic TR destiny feat once and only once. Is that correct.

2) Once you epic TR from each destiny, I assume this would entitle the player to epic completionist. Will this be an autogrant or selectable feat?

3) If I epic TR to an iconic and have maxed ED this will take me to 28. Do I still need to grind to fill out a new destiny or does the epic advantage include ED experience?

4) Would you be open to the idea of offering a heroic TR option that allowed players to keep their ED. That way Epic TR is optional and people still have a way to gain past life feats without messing up their ED tree. This is especially important since people may want to get new past life feats due to the enhancement pass and other changes


other comments - I am not requesting a response to these
------------------------------------------------------------------------

My first reaction was very much like everyone else's reaction - **** - I am losing my ED experience except for one tree. ED farming generates at least 400k xp/hour and more if the group is a bit faster. With that it means capping al ED would take around 55 hours or so. If I epic TR into an iconic with maxed EDs I will cap to 28 immediately and can then do another Epic TR unless I need to still fill out a tree. This would easily save me 55 hours so I am not grumbling quite as much as yesterday. Not to mention much of that xp was accumulated running quests I would have run anyhow so the actual grinding was probably under 50 hours..

Not everyone grinds for ED so for some people the time investment is much more than 55 hours.

[Vrdf]

In no particular order:

More build points would only be useful in certain special cases since it would still be impossible to start with more than 20 in any one particular attribute. Would be like the current maximum spell level problem.

Careful not to set premium too far apart. We are here because we can play with our friends, which is the point of a massive multilayer game. Many of those friends are either free or too casual to purchase the whole thing. Give then reasons to give up and that would be akin to giving us those reasons by proxy.

Good faith is paramount, this is a planning game, it requires a long therm view. No problem whatsoever with extensions, but changing things after long efforts, planning and time spent towards some goals is a betrayal.

Few actually enjoy all classes. I for instance would not stand a play through with a barbarian. Farming useless destinies for the target build is annoying enough even relying on only having to do it once. Keep in mind that trying to increase game length/coverage through some TR scheme is a fallacy like it would be trying to do the same to a grand strategy game by filling it with sports sub-games. And the current TR scheme is already pushing it.

Be sure to listen to all feedback to those enhancement changes, being hit by both those and this in sequence would be enough to push many over the edge. By the way, where is it I could comment on them? They seemed to go to a lammania thread but then changed and I am quite lost now, would really like to give my input. Example: Your very first expansion was about magic itself, with the goddess of magic as a subject and even Elminster in person and no Dragon whatsoever at any of the main storyline quests. Then why is that the only sorcerer capstone would be like that? The normal choice is in between a more self sufficient one like warforged sorcerers who think the charisma hit is worth of it, to whom that would be a perfect choice, against a more group work oriented build. In the latter the main purpose of sorcerers is large area damage against groups in complement to melee types which are more effective against stronger foes like bosses in contrast to the myriad of different rules for more sophisticated classes like monks/rogues, everyone still working together. Think of it as choosing between channeling the power to increase the body resistance/strength and channeling it to, so to say, blow things up.

[Ryiah]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

Simply providing opportunity to shift the system is not a guarantee it will be altered in any way.

[fluffi]

Another way to do it.
You have max ED, bond it and then you epic TR back to 20.
While levelling you choose an ED (as usual) to gain XP from. BUT you now have the option to use your bonded ED instead of your chosen one while still gaining XP for the chosen one.

[Silverleafeon]

I don't really undestand this part. If you bond a Destiny and gain the Epic Destiny Past Life Feat for it, why would it's XP be reset to zero? The idea of bonding it is to make it permanent.

My theory is very simple and Sir Valentine has suggested the same.
We are treating a particular epic destiny in the same manner a heroic class is treated for TRing.

If you TR a Wizard Life, you receive a past live and your xp is reset to zero.





Hello DDO Staffers,

I use Internet Explorer to use the forums.
I have McFee or Norton Online security.

I cannot use the Pando Downloader to obtain DDO, but Steam works.
I have trouble and must work around posting on the forums.

I am not a computer expert, I use what comes with my computer.
Please pass along to others these issues.


Also Amarath Quests, Cannith Quests, IQ one Quests, and Cannith Challenges
are very poor for xp. Sins is brutal but potentially better than the rest if you
are truly uber. We the DDO community have difficulty understanding why
after years these quests have not been readjusted by simply doubling the xp granted?
How difficult would it be to just go into these quests and swap the xp numbers there?
It is major design flaw to factor xp with loot as loot quickly fades from glory.

Bards need love ~ a spell that actually does damage and resist energy for starters.
You have tons of notes on that subject.

Divines always need to be loved as Raids / End Game Quests will not group well
without them.


I have read thru your new ideas regarding TRing.
If you are coming forward early and allowing us to be part of the brainstorming
process, then thank you very much. We are privileged to be a part of this.


So maybe something like this will work:

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
"Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

You can reply yes or no.

If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
{The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

If you heroic TR, everything else remains the same.

Iconic TRing allows you to TR into an Iconic Class without
binding any Epic Destinies.

If you are Epic TRing then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.



If you do choose to be more generous with beta enhancements and take note
of our great fears regarding your current brainstorming and act upon these things
we will be impressed.


Thank you sincerely,
Fawn

[Silverleafeon]

I was thinking EPIC TR was going to be just TR back to level 20 and level back up to level 28 and nothing todo with ED at all.A reasonable option. Drop toon back to 20 in a +0 lesser heart action.


If this goes though i would like

1. Trees to remain open if you opened them that life.
2. Keep all your fate points that you worked for that life.

3. Heroic TR should stay as it is now, no loss on ED xp.Reasonable requests.
Unlocked Epic Destinies must stay unlocked.
Every time we level up an Epic Destiny it should be applied to a permanent fate counter:
Epic Levels gain on all lives / 3 = fate points.

Both Heroic and Iconic TRing should be available in a form that does destroy Epic Destiny progress.

[RightToRemainStupid]

I also play for sheer entertainment (like all games I play), and for me progression is a key component of that entertainment. That's why when the cap was 20, I'd just TR rather than grind end loot to play 'end game' to grind end loot. Gear acquisition is not progression to me.


In many ways, ED acquisition feels like gear acquisition to me. Unlock more EDs to play EE content to acquire EE gear... bleah. Once I hit 25 I am ITCHING to TR. I have only two characters who I have left at 25 for more than a couple of weeks: my crafter, and my monk. My monk is the only character I have where I have unlocked more than 5 EDs.


So for players like me, I really don't see these changes being an issue. For maxers and end-game-grinders, I can see why they would be upset, because to increase their power they have to take a big step backwards and re-grind a lot of stuff.

In my experience, most people with this attitude aren't very good players and tend to look for excuses to avoid situations where this will become apparent to others. I've seen it time and time again on these forums, often from some of the most vocal and trollish posters, who often chime in with their opinions regarding parts of the game even they themsleves admit they prefer to avoid. TR'ing is just a safer, less challenging form of grind, that allows people to stay in their comfort zones.

[Violith]

As im sure many have said, Deleting all destiny EXP is out of the question, even with converting it into heroics ranks, it just isnt a fair tradeoff. While the idea of skipping past levels of a TR is nice, it would be much better implimented if you delete only the exp from the destiny being bounded and leave the rest alone, perhaps then by giving us heroic LEVELS rather then ranks (thus giving us 5 levels thus starting us at lvl6 for giving up only 1 destiny worth of exp (currently a capped destiny has 1,980,000 exp, which is technically enough exp to level up to 15 again on a 3rd life, so 5 levels isnt that b

although quite frankly the leveling from 1-18 isnt bad, it the 18-20 that is the killer for most TR's, so even giving us 1 or 2 levels (perhaps as a stone that gives us enough exp to level up exactly 1 level no matter which level we use it, and which we can use at any time) would be a more sought after choice, especially if it would be able to be kept for later lives.


so so summary, do one of two things.

Leave ALL destinies exp alone except the bonded destiny, which would be reset, and give people 5 extra levels for when they TR (this would make iconics lvl 20, so wouldnt be the best choice)
Leave ALL destinies exp alone except the bonded destiny, which would be reset, and give people a leveling stone enough to level up atleast 1 level, not matter when they use it. (the preferred choice, since as I mentioned a destiny is 1,980,000 exp 1-2 levels on any life (with the current exp requirements, even the 2 levels between 18-20 is still lower then the amount of exp we're giving up)


this will allow for a few things

to not aggravate the people who spent months leveling up their destinies by wiping their work out of existence
to give some incentive to actually use the epic TR system from bother new and vet perspectives
For those who already have grinded out their destinies, the EPIC TR will be more appealing since they could level up to cap and then bind another destiny quicker since they would have the destinies already either semi or fully filled, but the time it would take a newer person would still be lower then it would've taken these vets due to the fact that your reworking the EXP requirements.



obviously fate points, the main reason people go and level other destinies, would have to be commented on by the dev's although with the above change I doubt too many people would be too upset if they were to lower on an epic TR since we'd only lose 1-2 per life until we regain the previously bounded destinies exp.

[Silverleafeon]

If you wanted a simple proposal, do the following when you bond a Destiny:
1. You gain the Level 0 innate ability for that Destiny as a passive feat available to you at level 1
Lets not mix epic and heroic bonuses, that could backfire.

2. You gain 1 extra Fate Point
So, you bound the destiny no longer having to level it up again,
and grant an extra fate point. I much prefer keeping any fate points
that I have earned. There is plenty of room for expanding twists,
and the twist math will eat up fate points like the cookie monster
eats cookies.

3. You gain 8 more points to spend in that tree
Oh my, that is plush. I like that. It would make up for less fate points.

I would love to see more points in the epic destiny trees.
In fact, why not add more epic levels, points to each level and a bit more on the
top two tiers. My angel destiny could use 20 more points spent in it easy.


When you have all of them bonded:
1. You automatically gain the passive feat Epic Completionist which grants a stacking +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores.
2. You gain a 4th Twist Slot
3. You can now upgrade your Twist Slots to Tier 5
Interesting Ideas there.
I would prefer to end up with 5 twists at least instead of four, and would be
willing to let of the copy of the completionist feat to do so.
I like the twists going to tier five.
Again Twists are widly popular, Devs please expand them as you can.

And while you're doing this, please make the Completionist feat an auto-grant. You'll make a lot of people happy and won't break the game in the process.Indeed.


If you want extra fluff, how about the following:
Completionist: Show double-wings around a character's name
Epic Completionist: Add a flourish to the wings.
Triple Completionist: Make the name and wings and flourish golden.
Nice fluff.


Overall, your ideas have merit.

Obviously there should be some form of TRing available to those who want to TR
into Iconic or Heroic without losing their epic destinies.

I and Sir Valentine approach this from kill the xp in the bound slot which ignored
the whole bound concept and treats the epic destiny like a class,
while you approach the matter of save the bound ED XP and kill the rest.

Both ideas have merit.

For me personally, I could live with your approach to this matter of giving up
all epic destiny xp except the bound ed.

However, I disagree with you on the points that you seem to think epic destinies
will not remain unlocked and earned fate points should not be kept. I feel strongly
about these matters. What we have earned we should be allowed to keep.

[Silverleafeon]

As im sure many have said, Deleting all destiny EXP is out of the question, even with converting it into heroics ranks, it just isnt a fair tradeoff. While the idea of skipping past levels of a TR is nice, it would be much better implimented if you delete only the exp from the destiny being bounded and leave the rest alone, perhaps then by giving us heroic LEVELS rather then ranks (thus giving us 5 levels thus starting us at lvl6 for giving up only 1 destiny worth of exp (currently a capped destiny has 1,980,000 exp, which is technically enough exp to level up to 15 again on a 3rd life, so 5 levels isnt that b

although quite frankly the leveling from 1-18 isnt bad, it the 18-20 that is the killer for most TR's, so even giving us 1 or 2 levels (perhaps as a stone that gives us enough exp to level up exactly 1 level no matter which level we use it, and which we can use at any time) would be a more sought after choice, especially if it would be able to be kept for later lives.


so so summary, do one of two things.

Leave ALL destinies exp alone except the bonded destiny, which would be reset, and give people 5 extra levels for when they TR (this would make iconics lvl 20, so wouldnt be the best choice)
Leave ALL destinies exp alone except the bonded destiny, which would be reset, and give people a leveling stone enough to level up atleast 1 level, not matter when they use it. (the preferred choice, since as I mentioned a destiny is 1,980,000 exp 1-2 levels on any life (with the current exp requirements, even the 2 levels between 18-20 is still lower then the amount of exp we're giving up)


this will allow for a few things

to not aggravate the people who spent months leveling up their destinies by wiping their work out of existence
to give some incentive to actually use the epic TR system from bother new and vet perspectives
For those who already have grinded out their destinies, the EPIC TR will be more appealing since they could level up to cap and then bind another destiny quicker since they would have the destinies already either semi or fully filled, but the time it would take a newer person would still be lower then it would've taken these vets due to the fact that your reworking the EXP requirements.



obviously fate points, the main reason people go and level other destinies, would have to be commented on by the dev's although with the above change I doubt too many people would be too upset if they were to lower on an epic TR since we'd only lose 1-2 per life until we regain the previously bounded destinies exp.

This is why I am suggesting my proposal.
Having listen to many people while playing the game, they seem much more comfortable with this approach.

Even though I personally don't mind blowing up all my epic destiny xp, I don't expect others to feel the same way.

[Silverleafeon]

Careful not to set premium too far apart. We are here because we can play with our friends, which is the point of a massive multilayer game. Many of those friends are either free or too casual to purchase the whole thing. Give then reasons to give up and that would be akin to giving us those reasons by proxy.
Nods solemnly.

Expanding twists seems the best approach to keep things more balanced.
Ask anyone in the game how many twists they consider using with their epic build?
I bet they name more than three.

[Levonestral]

Writing to have fallen on deaf ears, but writing because I feel I need to at least say it.


The new Epic TR plan isn't exactly what I was hoping for. To me the idea of "Epic" TR'ing suggested that I could continue playing my "epic" characters in epic content. I was hoping it would reset us back to level 20 and we'd continue down our epic path once again. I wasn't expecting huge powerful gains, just nice benefits for choosing to run the epic content more often.

That said, what they are suggesting isn't bad, just not quite what I had hoped for.


With the exception of one thing: Deleting your previous ED xp.


ED experience was promised to be kept after TR's. This is why so many people are now upset with Turbine because for many people like myself, we decided to spend a significant amount of time and energy working on our ED plans instead of working on TRs. We felt that we would be safe in our decision because it was stated, by Turbine, that we would keep our earned ED experience so we chose to focus our play time working on this area of the game instead.

It's not like we were using something that wasn't "quite right" (like evasion working in medium armor). This was something that Turbine specifically stated would not be affected by TR's, giving people the false sense of safety in their future endevors.

Now comes along their decision to change that plan, slighting a large group of players for something that we were originally promised would not happen.

Players are left feeling ripped off. All our time, effort, xp pots etc, all "wasted". Sorry but trading in one destiny level for a single heroic rank is not acceptable. What's worse is that those ranks push us into levels where we'd still have to go back and run the content anyway just for the purpose of favor (bank, pack space etc).

There have been a lot of great suggestions for handling the "lost" xp. Please listen to them and take them into consideration.


This all said, the plan itself isn't bad but it should have been put in place long before this so that people could have positioned themselves better without being left feeling ripped off by being mis-lead by other Turbine employees.

The biggest problem with ED's is that a player is forced to grind out experience in destinies that provide very little to no benefits for their character while playing it, just for the purpose of grinding out fate points. There isn't much fun involved in that which is why you see so many endless grind-a-thons running the same 2-3 quests just to "get this over with". Is that really what you wanted your players to do?

I have never been a big fan of that design, but sucked it up and have done several 4/2/1 and 4/1/1 mixes over the last few months. I'm now being told that all that work will be lost should I ever choose to TR my character again. Ouch.

I could live with some of the losses should we be allowed to keep all our fate points from our previous lives and only be forced to re-grind the destinies we want to twist again. Not a great solution, but better than what's being suggested now.


I've touched base on this before about ED's vs Fate Points and I'll rehash it again here. I truely believe (especially now) that fate points and destiny experience need to be separated so that you can continue earning fate points regardless of your current destiny. This allows players to enjoy the game more while playing their characters the way they were intended. You could make the fate point experience higher, but a flat rate possibly, I'm not sure. I just know that the current form is not really working well, and with the new plan they've suggested, will only make things even less desireable.

Combined with that, I also think that the connection between destinies needs to be removed. Allow us to choose any destiny we want from anywhere in the tree. If we're going to be forced to have it all deleted upon each TR, then we should only have to do the one's we want and not be forced to grind our way around the tree again.


Turbine, you have a great game, and from time to time you come up with great idea's (I love the new augment system). This one isn't bad, but please listen to your players and make adjustments to it based on everyone who will be affected.

Remember, one of the major issues everyone is having is that up until now you've promised us that our ED xp would be maintained and now you're saying it won't be.

Thanks for listening

[Silverleafeon]

Another way to do it.
You have max ED, bond it and then you epic TR back to 20.
While levelling you choose an ED (as usual) to gain XP from. BUT you now have the option to use your bonded ED instead of your chosen one while still gaining XP for the chosen one.

Hmm...an interesting idea.

[Silverleafeon]

Writing to have fallen on deaf ears, but writing because I feel I need to at least say it.


The new Epic TR plan isn't exactly what I was hoping for. To me the idea of "Epic" TR'ing suggested that I could continue playing my "epic" characters in epic content. I was hoping it would reset us back to level 20 and we'd continue down our epic path once again. I wasn't expecting huge powerful gains, just nice benefits for choosing to run the epic content more often.

That said, what they are suggesting isn't bad, just not quite what I had hoped for.


With the exception of one thing: Deleting your previous ED xp.


ED experience was promised to be kept after TR's. This is why so many people are now upset with Turbine because for many people like myself, we decided to spend a significant amount of time and energy working on our ED plans instead of working on TRs. We felt that we would be safe in our decision because it was stated, by Turbine, that we would keep our earned ED experience so we chose to focus our play time working on this area of the game instead.

It's not like we were using something that wasn't "quite right" (like evasion working in medium armor). This was something that Turbine specifically stated would not be affected by TR's, giving people the false sense of safety in their future endevors.

Now comes along their decision to change that plan, slighting a large group of players for something that we were originally promised would not happen.

Players are left feeling ripped off. All our time, effort, xp pots etc, all "wasted". Sorry but trading in one destiny level for a single heroic rank is not acceptable. What's worse is that those ranks push us into levels where we'd still have to go back and run the content anyway just for the purpose of favor (bank, pack space etc).

There have been a lot of great suggestions for handling the "lost" xp. Please listen to them and take them into consideration.


This all said, the plan itself isn't bad but it should have been put in place long before this so that people could have positioned themselves better without being left feeling ripped off by being mis-lead by other Turbine employees.

The biggest problem with ED's is that a player is forced to grind out experience in destinies that provide very little to no benefits for their character while playing it, just for the purpose of grinding out fate points. There isn't much fun involved in that which is why you see so many endless grind-a-thons running the same 2-3 quests just to "get this over with". Is that really what you wanted your players to do?

I have never been a big fan of that design, but sucked it up and have done several 4/2/1 and 4/1/1 mixes over the last few months. I'm now being told that all that work will be lost should I ever choose to TR my character again. Ouch.

I could live with some of the losses should we be allowed to keep all our fate points from our previous lives and only be forced to re-grind the destinies we want to twist again. Not a great solution, but better than what's being suggested now.


I've touched base on this before about ED's vs Fate Points and I'll rehash it again here. I truely believe (especially now) that fate points and destiny experience need to be separated so that you can continue earning fate points regardless of your current destiny. This allows players to enjoy the game more while playing their characters the way they were intended. You could make the fate point experience higher, but a flat rate possibly, I'm not sure. I just know that the current form is not really working well, and with the new plan they've suggested, will only make things even less desireable.

Combined with that, I also think that the connection between destinies needs to be removed. Allow us to choose any destiny we want from anywhere in the tree. If we're going to be forced to have it all deleted upon each TR, then we should only have to do the one's we want and not be forced to grind our way around the tree again.


Turbine, you have a great game, and from time to time you come up with great idea's (I love the new augment system). This one isn't bad, but please listen to your players and make adjustments to it based on everyone who will be affected.

Remember, one of the major issues everyone is having is that up until now you've promised us that our ED xp would be maintained and now you're saying it won't be.

Thanks for listening

Some excellent points there.

As I have said before and will repeat.

Keeping our fate counter : epic destiny levels earned / 3 = fate points is essential to our happiness.
Keeping our currently unlocked epic destiny map still unlocked is essential to our happiness.

Most players are extremely uncomfortable with blowing up epic destiny xp with epic disadvantage.

Having to play in an epic destiny that does not help your build is not happiness.

[Teh_Troll]

In my experience, most people with this attitude aren't very good players and tend to look for excuses to avoid situations where this will become apparent to others. I've seen it time and time again on these forums, often from some of the most vocal and trollish posters, who often chime in with their opinions regarding parts of the game even they themsleves admit they prefer to avoid. TR'ing is just a safer, less challenging form of grind, that allows people to stay in their comfort zones.

Bad players need to feel tough somehow.

[Darkrok]

That said, what they are suggesting isn't bad, just not quite what I had hoped for.


With the exception of one thing: Deleting your previous ED xp.


ED experience was promised to be kept after TR's. This is why so many people are now upset with Turbine because for many people like myself, we decided to spend a significant amount of time and energy working on our ED plans instead of working on TRs. We felt that we would be safe in our decision because it was stated, by Turbine, that we would keep our earned ED experience so we chose to focus our play time working on this area of the game instead.

It's not like we were using something that wasn't "quite right" (like evasion working in medium armor). This was something that Turbine specifically stated would not be affected by TR's, giving people the false sense of safety in their future endevors.

Now comes along their decision to change that plan, slighting a large group of players for something that we were originally promised would not happen.

Players are left feeling ripped off. All our time, effort, xp pots etc, all "wasted". Sorry but trading in one destiny level for a single heroic rank is not acceptable. What's worse is that those ranks push us into levels where we'd still have to go back and run the content anyway just for the purpose of favor (bank, pack space etc).

There have been a lot of great suggestions for handling the "lost" xp. Please listen to them and take them into consideration.

Exactly this. It may not have been Turbine's intention. They may have just overlooked the effect this change would have. But the only way that we, the players that spent in some cases hundreds of our hours on the repeated promise that TR'ing would not wipe our ED xp, feel lied to and cheated. That's not how good DM's treat their gamers and it's not how businesses that stay in business treat their customers. There's time for Turbine to fix that but it's going to take a lot of repairing to mend what they broke here. It's not just the game change itself that's a problem - it's the fact that they even considered it in the first place and what that does to people's outlooks the next time they ask us to have a little faith and wait to see what comes out.

[Silverleafeon]

All good questions for the Devs.
We await your responses with baited breath and raised pitchforks...

We can only hope they are reading and going to have a serious meeting in the near future.

1) I assume that since an ED is locked once you epic TR it means you can gain the epic TR destiny feat once and only once. Is that correct.

2) Once you epic TR from each destiny, I assume this would entitle the player to epic completionist. Will this be an autogrant or selectable feat?

3) If I epic TR to an iconic and have maxed ED this will take me to 28. Do I still need to grind to fill out a new destiny or does the epic advantage include ED experience?

4) Would you be open to the idea of offering a heroic TR option that allowed players to keep their ED. That way Epic TR is optional and people still have a way to gain past life feats without messing up their ED tree. This is especially important since people may want to get new past life feats due to the enhancement pass and other changesIMHO which may be wrong
#1 Seems so.

#2 I am hoping all Past Life feats become passive and auto grant.
We need our feat slots to make normal choices.

#3 is an excellent question.

#4 is essential to keep people from leaving the game for good.


other comments - I am not requesting a response to these
------------------------------------------------------------------------

My first reaction was very much like everyone else's reaction - **** - I am losing my ED experience except for one tree. ED farming generates at least 400k xp/hour and more if the group is a bit faster. With that it means capping al ED would take around 55 hours or so. If I epic TR into an iconic with maxed EDs I will cap to 28 immediately and can then do another Epic TR unless I need to still fill out a tree. This would easily save me 55 hours so I am not grumbling quite as much as yesterday. Not to mention much of that xp was accumulated running quests I would have run anyhow so the actual grinding was probably under 50 hours..

Not everyone grinds for ED so for some people the time investment is much more than 55 hours.
Indeed, I only have one toon with capped ED XP which is less than some players.
I got bored with doing it on my raid cleric, and after seeing the alpha enhancements,
retired her to korthos.

Blow up Epic Destiny Xp with Epic Disadvantage is a serious, serious candy stealing project.

[Silverleafeon]

Exactly this. It may not have been Turbine's intention. They may have just overlooked the effect this change would have. But the only way that we, the players that spent in some cases hundreds of our hours on the repeated promise that TR'ing would not wipe our ED xp, feel lied to and cheated. That's not how good DM's treat their gamers and it's not how businesses that stay in business treat their customers. There's time for Turbine to fix that but it's going to take a lot of repairing to mend what they broke here. It's not just the game change itself that's a problem - it's the fact that they even considered it in the first place and what that does to people's outlooks the next time they ask us to have a little faith and wait to see what comes out.

Passes out torches and pitchforks but reminds the villagers to mind their language.

[Darkrok]

Oh, and a lot of people have been asking that the people complaining post compelling solutions. There have been some lengthy solutions posted. Honestly though the only solution needed on the heroic TR end is that 'epic advantage' be either optional or scrapped. That fixed everything for heroic TR's.

Epic TR'ing...I honestly don't feel that strongly about. I'm sure there are others out there that will but I can't feel lied to or cheated that a new system being added wipes out ED xp. They never promised us that some future, optional feature wouldn't wipe that xp. Some people may have expected it to be different...I certainly wouldn't have expected a complete wipe either...but that's just it - Turbine never promised us it wouldn't.

I don't mind changes to the game that are new as long as Turbine thinks they're in the best interest of the game. It's when they change mechanics that they repeatedly promised were WAI and assured us were safe that I get upset. It's not the grind so much as what it indicates about how they value their word and what that means about ANY progression I make on my characters.

[Darkrok]

Passes out torches and pitchforks but reminds the villagers to mind their language.

Lol...you scared me...I thought somehow I'd slipped something bad into my post and had to reread it three times to make sure I hadn't. :)

[Silverleafeon]

I'm on Ghallanda most days, feel free to pop along for a chat.

If I am ever over there, I would love to quest with you.
You seem a intelligent player.

[Silverleafeon]

Oh, and a lot of people have been asking that the people complaining post compelling solutions. There have been some lengthy solutions posted. Honestly though the only solution needed on the heroic TR end is that 'epic advantage' be either optional or scrapped. That fixed everything for heroic TR's. Indeed, this is essential, Epic Disadvantage must be optional.

[Silverleafeon]

Oh, and a lot of people have been asking that the people complaining post compelling solutions.
Adjust heroic legend xp at high levels a bit.
Shift epic xp to be more in line with epic destiny xp.


So maybe something like this:

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
"Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

You can reply yes or no.

If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
{The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

If you heroic TR, everything else remains the same.

Iconic TRing allows you to TR into an Iconic Class without
binding any Epic Destinies.

If you are Epic TRing then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.

[Kylstrem]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

The reason people are passionate is twofold;

1) They really like this game,
2) They know that once something is announced on these forums by Turbine, rarely does it change for the better when it is finally implemented. It usually gets worse (e.g. You can take Paralyzing off of one weapon and stick it on another, We will have a raid with the High Road Update, We have finally eliminated lag).... now, those were all Fernando quotes... and he's been kept away from the forums for a long time... so maybe Glin can get some benefit of the doubt... BUT, what we don't need is Cordovan become the equivalent of this guy:

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/004/130/bagdad-bob.gif

[Silverleafeon]

I will repeat.

We need our feats for normal build stuff.

We rarely take any past life feats that cost a feat slot to have.

The few we consider taking often:
Completionist
http://ddowiki.com/page/Past_Life:_Arcane_Initiate
http://ddowiki.com/page/Past_Life:_Disciple_of_the_Fist


Please if you are reworking the TR system take this into account.
Auto grant is much better, we need our feats to make the same choices everyone else does.

Current TR advantages do not scale well at all.
Uber in the harbor, so so in Epics.

[Teh_Troll]

BUT, what we don't need is Cordovan become the equivalent of this guy:

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/004/130/bagdad-bob.gif

If I was him with my ******** sense of humor that'd be my avatar.

[danotmano1998]

While we the players appreciate the preliminary information, there are simply too many vague points that have not been touched upon to offer any solid advice or ideas, IMO.

Here is an alternate idea scheme:

1. Heroic TR's - Change NOTHING.
2. Epic TR's -

Sets character back to level 20.
You get 1 epic past life feat based on the destiny you currently have active (if capped).
All Destiny xp is reset IN THAT ONE you just received a past life feat for.
Fate points and twists remain exactly as they are.

Simple, clean, and uncluttered.
It never fails to amaze me how ridiculously convoluted you guys make things sometimes.
KISS.

[Silverleafeon]

Past life auto grant goodies I want to see:

A bonus feat.

Spell Like Abilities that don't have finite uses per rest.

Bonuses to Combat DC such as trip, stun, etc..

Bonus fate points or the ability to keep earning them indefinitely.

Bonus twist slots.

Bonus to Spell DC Schools.

Bonus to Spell Pen.

Bonus to health take scales like toughness.

Bonus to spell points that scales like mental toughness.

Bonus to spell critical hits.

DR breaking applied to weapons.

Bonuses to PPR

Extra Spell Slots

Evasion

[Silverleafeon]

While we the players appreciate the preliminary information, there are simply too many vague points that have not been touched upon to offer any solid advice or ideas, IMO.

Here is an alternate idea scheme:

1. Heroic TR's - Change NOTHING.
2. Epic TR's -

Sets character back to level 20.
You get 1 epic past life feat based on the destiny you currently have active (if capped).
All Destiny xp is reset IN THAT ONE you just received a past life feat for.
Fate points and twists remain exactly as they are.

Simple, clean, and uncluttered.
It never fails to amaze me how ridiculously convoluted you guys make things sometimes.
KISS.

I like the idea of an Epic TR that acts as a +0 lesser heart, returning you to level 20
with an Epic Past Life.

I like the only resetting of the xp in the past life destiny.

Addition, please allow those wanting to combine Iconic + Epic past lives to do both
at the same time.

Heroic would not matter, as you could simply heroic TR right after the Epic if you choose to do so,
thereby leaving heroic TRing completely alone.

[Silverleafeon]

So a bit of change?

Heroic TRing works as normal without any changes at all.

Iconic TRing is available at the 28~30ish range and does
not affect your epic destiny xp at all.

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
"Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

You can reply yes or no.

If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
{The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

A new dialog pops up.
"Would you like to return to level 20 or begin a new life?"

If you choose return to level 20, then you lose your epic
levels and are placed on the heart of wind with a +0 lesser heart..

If you are Epic TRing into a new life then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.

[DogMania]

Now come on guys its not long till me need to make the changes what Ideas you got?
Devs - Sorry Glin we are struggling as since the cuts we don't have enough heads to think about it.
Glin to Team - Well guys it realy is not good enough, Hey wait a minute ive got a brilliant idea
Devs - And whats that Glin?
Glin - Well how about we post a lot of ******** up and then after the fireworks digest what is posted and use the best?
Devs - Wow Glin what a great idea that will save us some headaches as when they complain about the final release we can then blame them

And the moral of the story is "Why buy a dog and bark yourself"

[Silverleafeon]

Lol

[Silverleafeon]

Now come on guys its not long till me need to make the changes what Ideas you got?
Devs - Sorry Glin we are struggling as since the cuts we don't have enough heads to think about it.
Glin to Team - Well guys it realy is not good enough, Hey wait a minute ive got a brilliant idea
Devs - And whats that Glin?
Glin - Well how about we post a lot of ******** up and then after the fireworks digest what is posted and use the best?
Devs - Wow Glin what a great idea that will save us some headaches as when they complain about the final release we can then blame them

And the moral of the story is "Why buy a dog and bark yourself"

Sooooo funny, thanks for the laugh, I needed that.

[HAL]

You're talking about Epic TRing now in the system that we would like to see. If we agree that Heroic TR should not affect ED XP in any way then this is only relevant for Epic TRing. And if you choose to Epic TR then you've decided that you're happy with this. I do think that they're setting the bar very low with this as level 1 to 2 takes 15 minutes, so saving someone 15 minutes of time is insignificant. Maybe a better idea would be that if you had unlocked Veteran status (1000 favour) when you Epic TR you will start as a Level 4 character and then gain your Advantage ranks, and if you had unlocked Veteran II status (3000 favour) when you Epic TR you will start as a Level 7 character and then gain your Advantage ranks, and if you choose to Epic TR as an Iconic then you will start as a level 15 Iconic character and then gain your Advantage ranks. This seems a better option to me and gives you an additional incentive to broaden your horizons in a life. I've definitely done 3 day legend lives where I've had nowhere near 3000 favour.

EDIT: When you Epic TR you would basically start on the Heart of Wind - see post 646 below about making Advantage optional.

Perhaps YOU would like to see Epic TRing the way it was proposed. I am offering MY opinion (maybe I need your permission?) and I think that trading a rank of ED for a rank of low-level Heroic is crud. Plus I frankly like most of the low level quests in the game and would redo them anyway for Favor.

[Silverleafeon]

,,,,,That no less than 5 twists though. Maybe if I was paying more attention I would know which quests/raids to take which of those, hmm...

An example of a playing planning a new build and wanting more twists than are currently allowed.

[Silverleafeon]

Perhaps YOU would like to see Epic TRing the way it was proposed. I am offering MY opinion (maybe I need your permission?) and I think that trading a rank of ED for a rank of low-level Heroic is crud. Plus I frankly like most of the low level quests in the game and would redo them anyway for Favor.

I agree Epic Disadvantage is only good for blowing up ED XP for serious grinders who are
seeking additional Fate points.


A bit ago someone posted an upgraded version of Epic Disadvantage which is worth looking at:


My first impression upon reading the OP was very similar to the main theme I see reading the thread.
To summarize, as presented, this would remove all incentive for me to do any more TRs of any sort.
Also I do not think it is fair to punish those who worked hard to cap so many destinies under the current system.
On the other hand I realize that the grind for Ultimate Completionist should be a large scale and very daunting endeavor.

So I took some time to calm down, think and analyze the situation and I think there does not have to be very many big changes to make this work.
One thing that struck me was that by the time you reach level 28, you could have 3 destinies capped.
This means that even if all the epic destiny is reset, by the time you are done grinding Epic past lives you have more than earned the XP back multiple time so the real grind is for epic levels now, not for destinies as the destinies will fill themselves out on the way to 28.

As I see it there are some groups of people whose needs are not addressed with these changes:

People who are happy with their ED's but not done their Heroic TR plans
People who have earned a large numbers of ED's
People who want large numbers of Heroic Past Life feats
People using iconic characters who want Epic Past lives


To address these concerns I would suggest minor tweaks as follows:

Heroic True Reincarnation

Heroic TR remains unchanged at level 20 or above
Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
No benefit from Epic Advantage
No resetting of Epic XP


Epic Destiny True Reincarnation

Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
Feat based on selection of a maximized Epic Destiny
Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build
Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x if currently an iconic character
Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR) if not an iconic character
Earns ranks from Epic Advantage
Resets all ED XP except for any destinies that have a Karmic Bond from a previous past life
Fate points are not carried over to next life, except for fate points from tomes and levels of ED's protected by Karmic Bonds


Notice I combined Iconic TRs into Epic TRs, just seemed less confusing that way, plus really anyone who gets to level 28 should get to bond an ED even if they started as iconic.

This still leaves us with an immense grind to fill all the options, but it does so without limiting players so drastically.

This does leave one key group mentioned earlier still affected, those who have already capped a large number of Epic Destinies and would like to participate with the Epic TRs without losing out on the benefits of their hard work getting to where they are now.
For these players I think it would be fair to give them what they would deserve had they performed Epic TR's in the middle of their grind ED's.

In short for existing characters with at least 1 capped Epic Destiny when the system is released allow them to use Karmic Bond on an appropriate number of Destinies and let them keep their XP on an appropriate number of destinies. However only allow this once, the first time the character does an Epic TR. See the below for my recommendations:


1 Capped ED = 1 Karmic Bond
2 Capped ED's = 1 Karmic Bond
3 Capped ED's = 1 Karmic Bond
4 Capped ED's = 1 Karmic Bond + 1 ED XP carried over
5 Capped ED's = 2 Karmic Bond + 1 ED XP carried over
6 Capped ED's = 2 Karmic Bond + 1 ED XP carried over
7 Capped ED's = 2 Karmic Bond + 1 ED XP carried over
8 Capped ED's = 2 Karmic Bond + 2 ED XP carried over
9 Capped ED's = 3 Karmic Bond + 2 ED XP carried over
10 Capped ED's = 3 Karmic Bond + 2 ED XP carried over
11 Capped ED's = 3 Karmic Bond + 3 ED XP carried over


To get the following numbers I compared a projected 6.6 million epic XP to get to level 28 with 1.98 million XP per destiny.
For example 11 capped destinies currently is 21.78 million XP. Which is enough to potentially reach level 28 three times and bond 3 different destinies. There is also enough XP available to level those three destinies back to cap during the process.

If this type of one time benefit could be designed it would allow everyone to decide whether or not to participate in the new grind for Epic XP without forcing people to change their plans.

PS. 12 Epic TRs at 6.6 million XP + 39 more per heroic class means there is an awful lot of potential lives now. Even starting at level 12 there could be 3 million xp per heroic life for a grand total of nearly 200 million xp to get all available past life feats. Good luck to any who attempt it.

Sorry for being so long winded, and hope the Turbine forum readers have time to sift through all the responses to look at the ideas presented. Among all the concerns there have been a large number of good ideas as well.

[Silverleafeon]

Edit: Rofl so I can't place italics in the title field, or edit the title field... good one... (facepalm)

The truth is, this Epic TR system could have been a fabulous plan. I mean that, I really do.

Unfortunately, for it to have been awesome you would've had to implement it ~ a year ago, around the same time you introduced epic destanies. Instead, you sold them (destanies) to us for a year, including the direct statement that destiny xp/levels would survive the TR process.

Now, you've simply changed your mind and said "oh yah, about that destiny surviving the TR process... Not gonna happen anymore, unless you start over. If you've already purchased them, and crafted your toons around that idea, well... Sucks to be you."

You see I, like many others I know, have spent the last year TRing one of my favorite characters. Leveling one destiny per life, so that when I was done I would have a completionist (with a few extra lives for things like maxed spell pen & DCs) with all destanies done and locked in. The whole point of this effort was so that when I was "done" the toon would only take minor up keep in order to keep up with power creep and stay at the top of her game. A new destiny comes out? Great, level that. A new class comes along? No biggie, just TR once to get the new past life (or three times if the stacking feat was really beneficial) and once more back to her main self.

Now?

Now, to achieve the same results, I will need to stop playing that (almost done) toon until this new system is implemented, TR again through more heroic lives than I could possibly get a benefit from (already having almost all the x3s that I wanted) just to get the destanies "locked in" so that they will survive the little bit of TRing I would have/want to do as new classes are eventually introduced.

Oh, not to mention that I would be doing this all going on faith that you won't at some point in the future arbitrarily make a new decision that again invalidates the time and effort I put in towards my goal. In terms of real world time, it has taken me almost a year to make the progress I have. It will take at least 6 months to catch back up to where I'm at now, with still a few months left to go to finish the project; and NO! I will not be purchasing your short cuts (xp pots/Ottos boxes etc) to mitigate this massive pita you have foisted upon me! I just might, however, be passing my entertainment time and money to a new game company. If I have to start over, it may as well be with someone who hasn't given me the shaft.


•To those who are going to come and say "if you see it as an unfun grind you shouldn't be doing it:"
The journey has been fun. However I was looking forward to having a top notch toon built for running the hardest content & staying at "end game" as the level cap and such increased. Now I can't do that, at least not anytime in the near future. I was looking forward to starting on my next project. The first was a cleric, the next was a monk. Now I'm faced with a choice: abandon my cleric to start on my monk, or put off the monk indefinitely in order to eventually achieve what I was so close to having achieved already. That is not a fun choice to make.

•To those who are going to come and say "none of all that is necessary for a character to be playable:"
I've got a garage full of hondas, this was going to be my first Ferrari. So yah, it may not be needed, but it was definitely wanted!


I have not put all this work into a character but I can imagine those who have dealing with the proposed TR changes. And I do have EDs that I don't want to lose on TR, so I completely agree with this post.

They have a point.

Dropping Epic Destiny Xp loss on normal heroic and iconic TRs,
saving all our fate points and allowing us to earn more,
saving our unlocked epic destinies,
and seriously making huge major upgrades to Epic Disadvantage,
could allow us to consider the current proposal.

Particularly if xp spirals are slowed down, something is done
to allow one to funnel xp into non active destinies,
past lives are shifted mostly into auto grant mode,
fate points xp is gained regardless of active destiny.

[Silverleafeon]

I think a better approach would be to separate fate points from epic destiny levels. Give them their own xp bar (we already have 2 another one won't make much of a difference). I have no problem with someone being required to actually play a destiny that they want to twist abilities out of but needing to play a destiny that I have no interest in so I can twist abilities out of a totally different one seems silly. In addition they need to make some more connections so each sphere is connected to every other sphere by no more than 2 jumps. (or even better they are all interconnected) Something like this:




0---0
|\ /|
| 0 |
|/ \|
0---0



A darn good Concept and birds eye view.
Separate Fate points from everything else.

Why did we grind out all those off beat epic destinies?

We wanted fate points.

Why did we want fate points?

Because Twists are the most awesome DDO wonder of the year.

Why push all epic xp into a Fate XP bar?
This solves a lot of problems...

[Silverleafeon]

I still prefer

Heroic TRing works as normal without any changes at all.

Iconic TRing is available at the 28~30ish range and does
not affect your epic destiny xp at all.

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
"Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

You can reply yes or no.

If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
{The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

A new dialog pops up.
"Would you like to return to level 20 or begin a new life?"

If you choose return to level 20, then you lose your epic
levels and are placed on the heart of wind with a +0 lesser heart..

If you are Epic TRing into a new life then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.

[Silverleafeon]

But players would love this point dealt with:


Another way to do it.
You have max ED, bond it and then you epic TR back to 20.
While levelling you choose an ED (as usual) to gain XP from. BUT you now have the option to use your bonded ED instead of your chosen one while still gaining XP for the chosen one.

Again, it gets back into Fate points being diamonds in the rough...

Give us fate point options and you win our attention to consider.

[Silverleafeon]

Fawngate is a healer, she empathizes with others.

She was sad yesterday as she could feel the sadness of others.

[Deadlock]

Perhaps YOU would like to see Epic TRing the way it was proposed. I am offering MY opinion (maybe I need your permission?) and I think that trading a rank of ED for a rank of low-level Heroic is crud. Plus I frankly like most of the low level quests in the game and would redo them anyway for Favor.

If you see the later posts here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418543-Epic-Level-amp-Iconic-TR?p=5022060&viewfull=1#post5022060), you'll see further proposals on how you can Epic TR and start at a range of levels. I like the idea of being able to start at level 1, 4 or 7 with or without the Advantage boost. That to me is a much better set of options and gives fair compensation for the loss of ED XP.

Are you saying that you want more than one heroic rank per ED rank and also saying that you want to start at level 1 at the same time? I'm not sure how you can make that work.

Following the best suggestion I've come across from Tscheuss, you would have the option of starting at Level 1, if you choose to, or using your full Advantage and starting at level 18, or a number of options inbetween.

If you're trying to come up with a solution where you can Epic TR but the cost is removed just because we already have our ED's capped then I'll happily disagree with your opinion on how it should be. I'm happy with there being a cost to Epic TRing, I'm even happy with the proposed cost, but I would like to see the compensation increased as described in the linked post. I would also like the ED Past Lives to be powerful enough to further compensate for the additional effort in gaining them.

[Silverleafeon]

I wonder how she will react to the final end of all this?

[Silverleafeon]

Thanks Cordovan that was quick.
Congratulations on your new forum title Deadlock.

[Postumus]

I still prefer

Heroic TRing works as normal without any changes at all.

Iconic TRing is available at the 28~30ish range and does
not affect your epic destiny xp at all.

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
is reset to zero.

Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
"Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

You can reply yes or no.

If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
{The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

A new dialog pops up.
"Would you like to return to level 20 or begin a new life?"

If you choose return to level 20, then you lose your epic
levels and are placed on the heart of wind with a +0 lesser heart..

If you are Epic TRing into a new life then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.


I failed my WOT save the first fifteen times you posted this, but I actually read through it this time and I have to say I agree with 90% of your suggestions here. I think this probably should be the blueprint Turbine uses to make changes to the TR mechanics.


I also think that anyone who ETRs should lose ALL epic XPs and EDs (not fate points though) except for the ones they've bonded. No grandfathering for the shearing/rustedblades/pre-change epic challenge grinders who maxxed them out in a weekend or two. No grandfathering for players who have earned their EDs over many months through playing all the 40-odd epic level quests a few times each and from slayers because they enjoyed doing it like me. It's just the price of epic TRing.

[Silverleafeon]

If you see the later posts here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418543-Epic-Level-amp-Iconic-TR?p=5022060&viewfull=1#post5022060), you'll see further proposals Choices are good, we like choices.

If you're trying to come up with a solution where you can Epic TR but the cost is removed just because we already have our ED's capped then I'll happily disagree with your opinion on how it should be. I'm happy with there being a cost to Epic TRing, I'm even happy with the proposed cost, but I would like to see the compensation increased as described in the linked post. I would also like the ED Past Lives to be powerful enough to further compensate for the additional effort in gaining them.
I think a lot of people want to get out of the line of fire from Epic Disadvantage Explosions.

If the Devs want to make Epic TRing for the uber with uber rewards,
and allow normal heroic and iconic TRing without ED XP explosions,
then many would be willing to shrug their shoulders and walk on.

Those willing to make the grind, would be allowed to choose to do so.

Its all about granting choices.

[Silverleafeon]

I also think that anyone who ETRs should lose ALL epic XPs and EDs (not fate points though) except for the ones they've bonded. No grandfathering for the shearing/rustedblades/pre-change epic challenge grinders who maxxed them out in a weekend or two. No grandfathering for players who have earned their EDs over many months through playing all the 40-odd epic level quests a few times each and from slayers because they enjoyed doing it like me. It's just the price of epic TRing.

I am willing to blow up my ED XP with a TR into Iconic and use the Epic Disadvantage
to level up quite a bit on my first Iconic Life.

Again, I want fate points saved, unlocked destinies saved, the masses protected from Epic
Disadvantage, uber bonuses, the ability to earn more fate points per normal, and
a pizza delivered to my house....

[Grubbby]

...
Epic Advantage

With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)
...

If (and only if) The concept of Epic Advantage survives the redesign after the feedback is taken into consideration (I'm being optimistic today).

I'd suggest that the implementation be changed. Instead of giving us the bubbles that are most convenient for you to code, give us the ability to decide which bubbles/levels we skip.

I'd suggest something like a BTA Heroic Stone of Leveling +1 that allows us to skip a level of our choice. It works by giving your toon the amount of xp it would take to get from the beginning of the current level to the end of the current level. Each 5 Bubbles you would have given us from the Epic Advantage above become one Stone of Leveling +1. Different players and different toons have different dry spells in the leveling process, but no experienced player has a dry spell in the lower levels. Skipping the first bubbles is pretty useless. Skipping levels 15 and 16 if I'm trying to hold EGH for epic leveling is pretty valuable. Skipping level 18 and 19 would skip some of the biggest grind areas...

Either give us the choice, or skip the bubbles at the end of the leveling process instead of the beginning.

[Silverleafeon]

I failed my WOT save the first fifteen times you posted this, but I actually read through it this time and I have to say I agree with 90% of your suggestions here. I think this probably should be the blueprint Turbine uses to make changes to the TR mechanics.


I also think that anyone who ETRs should lose ALL epic XPs and EDs (not fate points though) except for the ones they've bonded. No grandfathering for the shearing/rustedblades/pre-change epic challenge grinders who maxxed them out in a weekend or two. No grandfathering for players who have earned their EDs over many months through playing all the 40-odd epic level quests a few times each and from slayers because they enjoyed doing it like me. It's just the price of epic TRing.

So you would like something like this:
{beware WOT warning}

So a bit of change?

Heroic TRing works as normal without any changes at all.

Iconic TRing is available at the 28~30ish range and does
not affect your epic destiny xp at all.

Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
"Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
and gain the past life for?"

At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
This epic destiny xp becomes bound and safe.
All unbound ED XP is converted into Epic Disadvantage.

A new dialog pops up.
"Would you like to return to level 20 or begin a new life?"

If you choose return to level 20, then you lose your epic
levels and are placed on the heart of wind with a +0 lesser heart..
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

If you are Epic TRing into a new life then you receive either a class past life
or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
It grants you a bonus feat?

Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
Twist remain capped at level four.

Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
regardless of ED XP resets.

[Silverleafeon]

Either give us the choice, or skip the bubbles at the end of the leveling process instead of the beginning.
So far it looks like Epic Disadvantage works much much better for someone TRing into an Iconic.
In fact Epic TR probably should be mostly done in conjuction with an Iconic life so as to double up the past lives.

It might be better to do 1 thru 20 with a normal TR and get the heroic past life
without going all the way to 28?

Hopefully the Iconic Past lives will be nice and auto grant.
Hopefully we will see more Iconics such as:
Kobold Island Shaman
Forgotten Gnome Illusionist
Drow Warlock
Etc...

[Piloto]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

[Grubbby]

So far it looks like Epic Disadvantage works much much better for someone TRing into an Iconic.
In fact Epic TR probably should be mostly done in conjuction with an Iconic life so as to double up the past lives.

It might be better to do 1 thru 20 with a normal TR and get the heroic past life
without going all the way to 28?

Hopefully the Iconic Past lives will be nice and auto grant.
Hopefully we will see more Iconics such as:
Kobold Island Shaman
Forgotten Gnome Illusionist
Drow Warlock
Etc...
I agree the system as currently described favors the iconic tr cycle very heavily because 15 is at the start of the more difficult range of leveling for most toons.

I'd be much less aggravated by loosing my destiny XP if I could choose when and on what toon I was going to use the Epic disAdvantage bubbles.

Before an Iconic TR cycle, I'd probably grind out a few levels in Dun Robar just to speed up the process. It wouldn't take very long at all to get you to the point where you could start at level 17 or 18. If this part of the system stays intact, and assuming the Iconic past lives are decent, Iconic completionist could be very popular.

[Sentinnel]

While we the players appreciate the preliminary information, there are simply too many vague points that have not been touched upon to offer any solid advice or ideas, IMO.

Here is an alternate idea scheme:

1. Heroic TR's - Change NOTHING.
2. Epic TR's -

Sets character back to level 20.
You get 1 epic past life feat based on the destiny you currently have active (if capped).
All Destiny xp is reset IN THAT ONE you just received a past life feat for.
Fate points and twists remain exactly as they are.

Simple, clean, and uncluttered.
It never fails to amaze me how ridiculously convoluted you guys make things sometimes.
KISS.

Dano you are spot on!!
Devs - Keep it simple stupid or if you prefer to feel more wise you can go with a multitude of the smart and wise:

“Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.”
- Confucius

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”
- Leonardo da Vinci

“Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify.”
- Henry David Thoreau

“Or, rather, let us be more simple and less vain.”
- Jean-Jacques Rousseau

“Any darn fool can make something complex; it takes a genius to make something simple.”
- Pete Seeger

“Life is indeed terribly complicated—to a man who has lost his principles.”
- G.K. Chesterton

Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise.
- 1 Corinthians 3:18 (NIV)

“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”?*
- Albert Einstein

“A child of five could understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.”
- Groucho Marx

[Tscheuss]

Aye, this the sticking point.

Give me choices, lots of choices, let me keep my goodies as I please.
Dangle some big carrots in the right places.

First Epic TR:

Bonds one maxed ED
Grants EDPL feat
Grants Heroic PL feat (if applicable)
Starts you back at level one

and

Places in TR cache one 1M XP Stone for every one million XP in surplus ED

OR

Places all surplus ED XP in an XP bank and routes you through a version of the Heart of Wind until you have spent it all,
even if it means going through a few more ETR's.

[Darkrok]

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.

I don't disagree with you on your last point. The problem is that Turbine created this system and told us that heroic TR'ing would not remove our ED xp. Changing it at this point is an option that will lose you a lot of your most lucrative customers. If that's your mindset I wish you guys luck with the game...I won't be contributing to the bottom line anymore though. If a bait and switch can be pulled on 55% of my character's progress in the game, who's to say that you won't later do the same thing with the rest of my progress.

My perspective is that the entire system you've outlined is completely fine. I agree with you 100% on everything you guys have said and done. But you can't pull a bait and switch on existing customers. If you don't grandfather in existing characters then you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. This will be the last straw for a lot of people and all it would take to address it is a little common sense.

[Permian]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

We're going to lose epic destiny XP any way you slice it and this is basically going live is how I read this. Please correct me if I misunderstood or am reading too much into this.

When this does go live all I can ask at this point in order to reduce the grind a bit is to take a serious look at increasing XP awarded in epic content. The reason I'm thinking this is because if all Destiny XP is going to be burned away with the exception of bonded destiny XP; who would pass up the opportunity to continue grinding out each destiny/life in order to speed up the process of gaining all of the epic past life feats and epic completionist.

I'm pretty much convinced that yes, unless one is currently completely happy with and totally finished with their character build right now, ALL will be starting over from scratch the moment that they decide they want to TR, whether epic or heroic. It's really hard to swallow that this entire system was not thought about or at least considered way back when epic levels and epic destinies were introduced in the first place.

[Rawel_San]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

I don't think you are quite grasping the size of the endeavour to get epic levels. Can I ask how many of you have actually tried to finish more then 3 epic destinies? Getting all ED's leveled is something that players that play a LOT, on characters they like have spent weeks and months on. Taking that away is IMHO ... Something a person with an IQ of less then 50 would do. You see how I managed not to use any of the bad words there?
Yours sincerely,
Rawel

[oradafu]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

In the first section, you're acting like Epic Level XP is bundled with ED XP, which everyone can see that it isn't. There is no reason to scrub the ED XP. All you are doing is kicking players in the face who have spent ANY time in the epic levels investing in the ED system. It doesn't matter if players have capped the EDs or if they only have a spattering of EDs unlocked, you are doing a heavy-handed penalty to everyone for investing time in Epic levels for the past year, if they ever plan to TR.

There should be no reason to erase any ED XP when you TR, whether it is Heroic or Epic TR. If player bond with a ED before they Epic TR, they should get the past life feat or whatever for it, but all XP should stay the same. Everyone will be on an equal footing on the amount of XP and the number of times they need to TR to get full benefits of a completionist, if this is done. No one will be penalized at all. The only advantage that players that have XP in EDs already would have is that they would not need to re-grind the freaking EDs that they hate or don't work with their build/class. There would be no other advantage at all.

[Teh_Troll]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

I don't care what you do with epic TR. Heroic TR blanking out your ED XP is not acceptable. period, end of discussion.

[grausherra]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

I love this development process!

Step 1: Post potential change as an idea and solicit feedback from the player base.

Step 2: Receive overwhelming negative feedback.

Step 3: Throw resulting negative feedback into a fire and proceed to tell us you're going with the initial proposal anyways.

Playing you guy's game is like being married to an abusive spouse, except my friends and family are encouraging me to stay in the relationship : /

[FestusHood]

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).


Why do you make it sound as if somehow we are cheating by using the system that exists now?

Do you not realize that what you are suggesting gives us not a weird, but a very sensible desire to avoid epic play now? Since anything we do in the epic levels now will get burned up whenever this goes live.

In the current system when we tr we gain nothing from epic. We just keep what we've earned. We're not looking to game the system and somehow get something extra out of it without earning it.

From my perspective, i'm not one of the people who spent countless hours grinding out destinies for fate points. I played epics for awhile, and gained some ed experience. Then i tr'd. Thinking that i had made some progress in epic destinies which i could pick up from where i left off when i got to 20 again.

Now, i have no desire to play epics at all, since i do still plan to perform more heroic tr's on all my characters. Any time i spend in epics between now and the time this goes live will feel completely futile. I'm one of those players that needs to make progress to enjoy this, or any other role playing game. Since nothing i do in epics now will ultimately result in any form of progress for me, i have no desire to do them.

I know i'm not alone in this thinking.

[Teh_Troll]

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats). .

You're missing the option that most will chose . . . never TR again EVER because the garbage that you are offering is not enough to make up for what you lose.

Stop trying to tell us how to play the game. Most people hate the lame excuse for what you call an endgame and don't want to bother playing with it. maybe make some compelling content and a FRIGGIN RAID OR TWO instead of nerfing the only thing that keeps this game afloat (TR).

I know it must be tough to accept that NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR NEW CONTENT compared to the better content that was made by the developers before you. Deal with it and stop taking it out on the people who pay the bills.

[fourrumtest]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

1 you do not under stand my concern. let me say it again.

any heroic tr that wipes my epic xp, is unacceptable. i wont do it, and i wont stick around after you make it happen.

any epic tr that wipes my heroic xp is unacceptable. i wont do it, and i wont stick around after you make it happen.

if you are concerned about people not wanting to play epics, you could make them fun or rewarding or interesting, maybe all three. making them mandatory is just more "take that you stupid customers"

2 if the current proposed design goes live i will stop playing your game, i hate the proposal, i have not seen anything released in the past 2 years that makes me think this team could add anything to change my mind.

in the past 7 months of refusing to fix the thing your poorly tested/rushed update broke on my account i have not given this company a dime. i have learned that you did not care about me as a paying customer. i have learned you dont care about repairing the trust i used to have so i will spend money on your game. i have no reason to believe you will listen to me as free customer.

also can you please get some community college interns to fix this pile of junk that is the forums?

[Teh_Troll]

I know i'm not alone in this thinking.

You're not.

Playing a game is a waste of time. A recreational activity. Shine a light on how much of a waste of time it really is and people will just not bother.

This proposed change makes playing ANYTHING epic not a complete waste of time regarding character advancement. And loot? You gotta be kidding me who's hunting for loot when the level 28 stuff will invalidate everything we have now anyway.

[Candela90]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

Its great to hear ure reading player responses :)
Id just like to point out what player pointed out earlier about xp - it would be great if it was added to your heroic XP but maxed out all EDs and 28 lvl are woth of sth around 20 milions of xp. Thats a lot.

[redspecter23]

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).



I get what you're saying, but you are creating heroic TR disincentive where there was none before. You're basically admitting that what was done a year ago (allowing ED xp to carry through TR) was a mistake. Unfortunately, we as players are the ones that suffer from that mistake if it's fixed. Transferring ED xp into some form of heroic XP is a token gesture at best. The fact that a heroic TR destroys all ED xp (that wasn't currently bonded) and bonds none in the process means that any progress you make after level 20 is nearly completely wasted (aside from the token advantage).

You've making heroic TR a "bad thing" to do and making ED TR the way to go. You get a bonded destiny, more epic advantage by virtue of leveling 20 - 28 and you get a heroic past life as well. Assuming things stay as they are proposed, heroic TR is a fools game. Something you do if you just don't understand the consequences.

This also leads to a reduced purpose for True Druidic Heart of Wood in favor of the new EDTR widget. We have easy in game access to TDHoW through epic token turn in. People can pay through the DDO store or they can grind a reasonable amount in order to get it in game. We have absolutely no info at all on how the new widget will be distributed, either in game or through the store. It's safe to assume it will cost more than a TDHoW as it actually gives more back. The real question is, if I'm basically going ahead with 11 of these new TR's, will I have reasonable in game access to the new widget? Or will I be forced to pay each and every time because they are too rare to get reasonably? I've earned nearly all of my hearts of wood on my completionist through token turn in. I enjoy knowing that I earned it and didn't buy my access. That's something that keeps me interested in the game. Hopefully this new TR system will allow me that same flexibility.

[Hokiewa]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

So, long story short. Anyone grinding ed xp should simply stop. Got it.

The most amusing part of all of this is, what incentive remains to purchase the expansion. Which provides 3 additional levels to add to ED xp totals.....only to have them wipe when U20 launches if one TRs. I can only recommend that people simply stop playing TRs, potential TRs, chars above level 20, chars you want to level to 20 until U20 launches. It is mind blowingly awful

[Hokiewa]

and you didn't even consider fate points....laughable

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.

On the other hand: Deleteing ED XP on Heroic TR gives a weird "incentive" to never ever TR again.

Guess which "incentive" is stronger?

[Teh_Troll]

So, long story short. Anyone grinding ed xp should simply stop. Got it.

The most amusing part of all of this is, what incentive remains to purchase the expansion. Which provides 3 additional levels to add to ED xp totals.....only to have them wipe when U20 launches if one TRs. I can only recommend that people simply stop playing TRs, potential TRs, chars above level 20, chars you want to level to 20 until U20 launches. It is mind blowingly awful

Slightly disagree . . . playing end game is a waste of time but now IS the time to get your TRs done. Get them done before this idiotic change is made.

This way in case DDO survives this "Microsoft" level of stupidity you won't have to TR again ever.

[Charononus]

. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.


Burning my ed xp for heroic tr when you said that wouldn't happen has you providing a wierd incentive for us to find another game made by another company. Are you trying to take a loss on ddo for a tax write off?

[Darkrok]

Stop trying to tell us how to play the game.

They can do this...but once they tell us how to play the game they don't get to change their mind without losing a lot of paying customers. That's misleading at best.

When our software company writes the program in a certain way, have everyone use the program that way, and then makes a change to how that works that negatively effects our customers, we make it right. We don't say, "well, that's not the way we meant it to work, this new way is better, now reenter all your information the way we meant it to be stored." We'd lose customers so fast we'd be out of business in a couple years. We've actually had an exact situation like that and what we did...we took hours of high level developer time to hand edit the databases of any customers that were effected to ensure their information was correct. We didn't even batch it - because to do that would be to risk something less than 100% of our customers time was returned.

It was our change, after the fact, that caused the need for information to be reentered, and the responsibility was with us, not with our customers, to make it right. Turbine has that completely backward and after reading their most recent post I encourage everyone to publicize this in their in-game groups, with contacts in the gaming community (ie web sites with gaming news), and with any friends considering looking for a new game. Be honest - yes, DDO is a great game despite all of the bugs...but you can't trust the dev's to not wipe out your character's progress. Because at this point that's the truth.

[bbcjoke]

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

Heroic TR should not burn any kind of epic destiny XP (be it bound or not) and therefore, the character should not get a compensation in any form it doesn't already get. Whoever wants to avoid epic level play should be allowed to do so (some people actually prefer to do that, not my case, but I respect their choice and so should you devs). The obvious drawnback is that they will miss the Epic past life feats if they never perform an Epic TR, but this is how it should be anyway.

Also, as I stated before, changing heroic TR now would be changing the rules in the middle of the game. It's not a fair thing to do. Some people planned in advance and are having their plans screwed.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system!

Glin, we follow your musings on twitter, and I've had respect for you when you go to computer shows and represent Turbine.

When you post a thread like this, yet don't even come back to fix errors in your own OP, how does that make us feel YOU and the Turbine team is actually READING THIS or even have the knowledge such a thread of ideas and reactions exist?

There have been massive errors in judgment this year, and the look of this site, and failure to make adjustments after many many regulars have admitted they are not contributing any longer, or have flat out left the game is unacceptable.

Your team has decimated the community here and it's affecting a lot of folks in game. Morale is at an all time low. This year is making 2008/2009 seem like a joyride.

Is it asking that much... to spend 15 minutes a week to respond yourself to your own PoA?

[redspecter23]

On the other hand: Deleteing ED XP on Heroic TR gives a weird "incentive" to never ever TR again.

Guess which "incentive" is stronger?

Exactly. They can't see the forest for the trees. I really hope they don't push this "New Coke" on us and realize there are more factors here than what they've originally thought.



1. Turbine proposes a change in functionality for heroic TR

2. Response is overwhelmingly negative

3. Turbine reiterates that the heroic TR ED wipe will be pushed through

Pushing through a change that is 99.9% negative (whether you feel it's for the good of the game or not) is NEVER a good thing to do. You feel that players will adjust to the new changes. You're correct. Many will "adjust" right into another game.

[Hokiewa]

Slightly disagree . . . playing end game is a waste of time but now IS the time to get your TRs done. Get them done before this idiotic change is made.

This way in case DDO survives this "Microsoft" level of stupidity you won't have to TR again ever.

That's a fair point. I'm still sticking to the Enhancement pass as the DOOM benchmark though

[Dandonk]

I don't think the solution is to give more benefits to TRing - that would mean it would slowly become mandatory to TR, no more or less optional as it is now. Mostly, anyway.

The solution is to not make it take away your progress, instead.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

If I were designing the changes

1) Heroic TR would stay exactly as it is today
2) Epic TR would return a character to level 20, resetting the currently active Epic Destiny XP in return for the past life bonus associated with it, and leave all other Epic Destiny XP unchanged.
3) Just drop the "Epic Advantage" XP kludge
4) Epic Destinies are already "bonded", as per the promise when MotU was released last year. Rules were set out for TRing, which as far as I am concerned apply to all types of TRs
5) Iconic TR? Sorry, don't have an opinion.

Really, from the standpoint of game mechanics, it is pretty difficult to make a case for an alternate system. What I have described pretty much mirrors how past lives work for Heroic TRs. I wish I could pat myself on the back, but it is so obvious that I would feel guilty.

Turbine is working pretty hard to craft a far more complicated system than would seem indicated. Given that excess complexity, one does have to ask what are the additional considerations which would lead to such contortions? Possibilities include

1) Trying to level the playing field between new and veteran players, by resetting as much veteran player progress as you think you can get away with.

2) Trying to generate additional grind, likely to offset declining revenue associated with a declining game population over the last year.

Really, if the past year had taught Turbine anything, it would be that trying to be excessively clever in manipulating your customers really doesn't work that well from a business standpoint.

If there are reasons why you need to design strange game mechanics to offset business realities, it might make sense to just come clean and be honest about what those realities are. The feasibility of that approach declines, however, as you continue to burn away the accumulated goodwill that your customers have for this game.

I really don't expect Turbine to heed any of this advice. The past year has pretty much taught anyone who is paying attention how Turbine intends to do business.

At this point, I no longer even look with trepidation towards what errors Turbine will make next. I fully expect that Turbine will completely blow up what remains of the game, through the pending enhancement pass and the bad design decisions detailed in this thread.

If nothing else, the the potential for "popcorn reading" is enormous.

[Maelphistez]

First off, since I haven't said it before... Thanks Glin and other Devs for coming out and talking about this while it's still in the planning stages rather than already coded. I have to assume that means you are willing to be swayed by player opinions. It's a big change from some earlier experiences and I just want to thank you for it.

Now, my opinions:

To preface, I've spent money on the game. A lot of it. Way more than I should have in fact. I've been a VIP for years, bought both collectors editions for expansions, and paid for way too many points bundles. I play a lot, but I'm not a power-gamer. I have over 30 characters in 3 accounts, about 10 of which I'd say get played on a weekly basis. I have characters that have TR'd with no ED farming and I have characters that have TR'd and have max destinies.

Now, I don't need to go into why everyone hates the proposal to reset Epic Destiny XP. Let's just accept that that's fairly widely reviled for the simple reason that some of us have spent enough hours to equal days or weeks grinding out horribad destinies just to unlock Fate points. "Ooooh! Look at me! I'm a Barbarian leveling Magister! Isn't this fun?" I hope you will accept that the minority of us who have done this are probably also the largest proponents of the game. We are the ones that spend hours online playing and we are the ones that spend money ourselves as well as bringing friends into the game to spend their money. No, you don't *need* us. But I hope you will at least think about my statement as you read through the pages of vitriol around this announcement.

Ok, my observations and proposal. I recognize that the basis of "True Reincarnation" has always been to "give up everything" to start over just a *little* bit more powerful. I accept this. Some others may not, but I at least recognize that's where this whole reincarnation thing began. I also suspect based on previous statements that no one at Turbine really thought that we, the players, would sit at the cocaine lever for hours and hours and HOURS at a time in order to level all of our Destinies in one life. I think that was short-sighted if true since it doesn't take much to recognize that avid gamers will *always* take the shortest path to the most power. Certainly the idea of resetting all EDs upon TR/eTR (with of course the idea of bonded EDs) fixes the Dev's original intent, but I hope you recognize that this particular ship set sail long ago. Whatever was intended is not where we are now. That leaves us with the problem of how to return TRs and EDs to what the Devs intended while pacifying the pitchfork carrying hordes *and* providing them/us a reason to keep playing when we know the axe is looming. I propose the following:

1) Everything in Glin's original post goes forward (setting the plan back to where intended originally by Devs) with some modifications for those of us that have previously leveled EDs.
2) Allow us to use our "free ranks" from EDs earned at the end rather than at the beginning of our TR. I can literally earn rank 2 just by completing the Grotto. There is no way that's equivalent to an ED level.
3) Allow those of us who have ED farmed to "bond" one ED for every 10 levels of ED gained. It's a compromise. Essentially, we lose half our EDs to make you happy and you let us keep half our EDs to make us happy. As in every compromise, both parties should feel like they gave up something. I think this would be fair. It also allows room for those of us who would like to keep playing between now and Update 20 to keep earning EDs and know that the more we earn, the more we get to keep.
4) Allow players to level an alternate ED, even if at a reduced XP gain, while in our primary.

I hope a Dev takes the time to read my text wall... I really like the thought that at least some of what I said here will be considered.

[Orratti]

I'm just glad the only character I was using in epic destinies was my crit rage barb I already knew was getting destroyed. I feel for everyone else but experience has taught me over time that the people who work the hardest to get to the top or simply like the game the way it is are the people who get repeatedly hurt when the game changes. This one time I don't get to be the one seething in anger over a game that is supposed to be fun. I've played less and less as the game has changed more and more.

[AZgreentea]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about. *snip*

Just my two coppers as a player who has not not maxed even one ED yet (I have them) and thus dosent have a pony in that other race:

I like the proposed changes to the ED system. It sounds like a much more fleshed out and functional system than the original that will add variety to the game.

[Charononus]

After some thought I think they're wiping our xp to fix an exploit they don't know how to fix any other way. I'm starting to think that because of this we have no chance to change their minds.

edit * no this is not about shears.

[arkonas]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

Have you noticed no one want wants to lose all of this work? so far your idea will kill tring in general if not the game. You might want to think heavily about what you're going to do. do you not see the negative responses to this intended design? i will say this again had this been introduced when destinies came out no one would complain at all except heroic trs kinda get screwed.

when you heroic tr it should not effect epic destinies at all. that system needs to stay untouched. only epic tring should reset anything as long as you grandfather all maxed eds when update 20 comes out. epic tr should start at 20 no other level. it defeats the purpose imo to make them start under. that is a ton of xp to get back.

[Teh_Troll]

. . . Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.

Again . . . why do you care other than ego if your customers do not want to play with your new shinies?

You're end-game is a big bucket of fail. The heroic game is simply more fun . . . so instead of making your Epic game better your intentions is to defecate all over heroic?

People avoiding epic is 100% your fault.

- you've killed raiding. Only 2 raids are worth running, one is hated (CiTW) and the other was loved at first so you decided to all make it a big bucket of stupid with that BOOOM! nonsense. All other raids are a waste of time . . . and your new expansion doesn't even have one.

- Loot acquisition much easier. BTCoE stuff from GH is better than most raid loot, throw in the shard exchange for P2Win goodness. Not to mention I have random drops that are better than Greensteal weapons. Also with a level-cap increase coming up and Feather's love of invalidating previously ground loot there's no point in bothering to find the new shinies now as they'll all be junk in two months anyway.

- Epic Elite difficulty is just plain ********. I personally love playing it but I'm a psychotic over-geared power gamer who mostly plays self-healing melees. The saves makes any DC casters borderline useless so if that's the style of play you like why firggin bother?

So in a nutshell the "casual" gamer can't do the challenging stuff and the power-gamer gets bored. TRing is what's left. it's still fun, the lower level content plays more like D&D and less like this Fraken-MMO you guys have patched together.


TL:DRL: Make your end-game better if you want people to play it. People not playing it now is your fault for making it so lame.

[Hokiewa]

Just my two coppers as a player who has not not maxed even one ED yet (I have them) and thus dosent have a pony in that other race:

I like the proposed changes to the ED system. It sounds like a much more fleshed out and functional system than the original that will add variety to the game.

To who? I wager the majority of players will never touch this system in current form.

Amusing

[oradafu]

Why do you make it sound as if somehow we are cheating by using the system that exists now?

Do you not realize that what you are suggesting gives us not a weird, but a very sensible desire to avoid epic play now? Since anything we do in the epic levels now will get burned up whenever this goes live.

In the current system when we tr we gain nothing from epic. We just keep what we've earned. We're not looking to game the system and somehow get something extra out of it without earning it.

From my perspective, i'm not one of the people who spent countless hours grinding out destinies for fate points. I played epics for awhile, and gained some ed experience. Then i tr'd. Thinking that i had made some progress in epic destinies which i could pick up from where i left off when i got to 20 again.

Now, i have no desire to play epics at all, since i do still plan to perform more heroic tr's on all my characters. Any time i spend in epics between now and the time this goes live will feel completely futile. I'm one of those players that needs to make progress to enjoy this, or any other role playing game. Since nothing i do in epics now will ultimately result in any form of progress for me, i have no desire to do them.

I know i'm not alone in this thinking.

You're not alone.

I've similarly have been grinding and TRing my characters for much the same reason as you. I'm not someone that has capped all the EDs on any character. I have three characters with a single ED capped and several (if not all) of the other EDs with anywhere from one bubble to 5 tiers of XP. Plus I have a few other characters with a smattering of XP in the EDs. If I plan to TR any of the three characters in the future, it negates all progress for the last year in epics.

If this is how the Devs are responding to our concerns, I really have no desire to continue playing the game. This isn't making some old items obsolete, as this seems like the view the Devs are taking. This isn't tickering with the power of a class or build. This is a total eradication of time and progress invested into the game.

As someone else stated, I'd like to see everyone single person in Turbine sit down and grind a fresh character out from level 1 to cap and all the epic destinies and report back how long it took them. Seriously, because what you are asking is for players to practically repeat that process 11 times with a slight XP advantage each time.

[Darkrok]

Just my two coppers as a player who has not not maxed even one ED yet (I have them) and thus dosent have a pony in that other race:

I like the proposed changes to the ED system. It sounds like a much more fleshed out and functional system than the original that will add variety to the game.

And I know that I've been one of the strongest voices here against everything but it bears saying this:
I think that I and most of the people strongly against this actually agree with you.

The only problem is that it wasn't in place to begin with and because of that they have people that it will take a ton more than an 'epic advantage' to compensate.

[Theolin]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

So you are saying
The grinding of my EDs over the last 20 lives was a waste of time .....
So you do not want me to TR any toon again ..... because they all have some EDs ground out & I would loose that ......

I think this is the first time I am going to say bad idea .... but this one is it ......

BAD IDEA ... do not take my XP away from me

Now to leave you with one thought ....
There is a reason they stopped the XP penalty upon death:mad:

[rosedarkthorn]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

There is absolutely nothing you could possibly implement to make losing all my hard earned ED's okay for me. Nothing. I started leveling the ED's with the expectation that when I TR, I get to keep the progress I have made with them. I absolutely do not want to lose all the work I put into them just to start with nothing at level 20 again. That is ridiculous. If this is implemented, I will never TR any character ever again, and if I do TR them, I won't bother leveling any ED's at all (and the only reason I would bother TRing at that point is if I messed up a character and need to fix them, in which case, I wouldn't waste time leveling any EDs I would lose anyway). This should be an option for those who WANT to give up their ED's for the extra Heroic xp, not forced on those who don't want it.

As for preserving ED's on Heroic TR creating an incentive to avoid epic play, that is ludicrous. There are plenty of people who currently play all epic content, despite being able to TR at level 20 if they want to. If you take away the ability to keep ED's after Heroic TR, you'll just be creating an incentive for people to stop TRing because they don't want to lose all that work. I can promise you that I will never TR again if I level all ED's up on a character; that character will remain at level cap indefinitely because I refuse to grind all of that out again. There is no benefit you could possibly give me that would change my mind.

Admittedly, I don't like having to start at level 1 when I TR either, but trading 50 levels of ED's to get back to level 20 is not a fair trade by far. ED's give your character power; I've already had to start with nothing and I don't want to start with nothing a second time after getting to 20 again. Keeping my ED's would allow me to better enjoy the content without having to worry about grinding again. I wanted to TR my ranger, experience the new enhancements and then get back to 20 and actually enjoy being in Shiradi Champion for the entire ride instead of having to grind everything out again. That isn't fair. After grinding all the ED's out to get all my Fate Points and ready myself to be able to have fun in Shiradi for the entirety of my Epic play, I then find out you want to take that all away from me and leave me with a perpetual grind that never ends, should I ever choose to TR again. I will literally never get a chance to enjoy my chosen main ED because I'll be too busy grinding all the others out the whole time, which only gives me more incentive to never TR at all.

Do you see what's happening here? This will kill the TR system, not make it better. Please don't force me to give up my ED's to TR because if I am forced into that kind of decision, I will opt out of TRing altogether and I don't think I am alone in that decision.

[Grosbeak07]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

I get where you are coming from and I agree, you need to trade something to get something when you TR.

But 2 things:

1) Like has been said numerous times... leave Heroic TR alone. If you want people to play epic levels, make epic content (including a Raid or two), don't try and shoe horn people into things.

2) Grandfather in people who already have destinies unlocked. At first I feared things would be over powered, but on second thought I doubt there are that many players out there with multiple characters with max destinies (personally I only know people who have 1 character like that) Let us keep our current (max) destinies and then let the grind for nice past lives feats begin. It will also give us something to do while we wait for your pitiful "expansion" to come about, but if I'm going to lose my ED's, then why the heck should I play epic levels?

Without considering these two things you will drive away even your most loyal customers and defenders (such as me). I don't want to grind destinies now, why the heck would I want to do it EACH LIFE.

[blackdae]

any heroic tr that wipes my epic xp, is unacceptable. i wont do it, and i wont stick around after you make it happen.

any epic tr that wipes my heroic xp is unacceptable. i wont do it, and i wont stick around after you make it happen.

^^ This

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

Dano you are spot on!!
Devs - Keep it simple stupid or if you prefer to feel more wise you can go with a multitude of the smart and wise:

“Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.”
- Confucius

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”
- Leonardo da Vinci

“Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify.”
- Henry David Thoreau

“Or, rather, let us be more simple and less vain.”
- Jean-Jacques Rousseau

“Any darn fool can make something complex; it takes a genius to make something simple.”
- Pete Seeger

“Life is indeed terribly complicated—to a man who has lost his principles.”
- G.K. Chesterton

Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise.
- 1 Corinthians 3:18 (NIV)

“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”?*
- Albert Einstein

“A child of five could understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.”
- Groucho Marx

Slowclap.gif

[magn0liafan]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

So far, not *as* horrid as the original proposal, but if it's resetting primarily "epic" things, then characters should indeed be able to start at "epic" content, with additional compensation. Also, if they've unlocked a tree, the tree should stay unlocked.


Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

In this case, those who are using Epic True Reincarnation should also gain past life feats and other benefits of Heroic True Reincarnation, in addition to the benefits of Epic True Reincarnation.


2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Better than nothing, I suppose.


Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

Rest assured, we will.

[Teh_Troll]

. . .If you want people to play epic levels, make epic content (including a Raid or two), don't try and shoe horn people into things.

You'd think this would be obvious?

[Gadget2775]

Have been watching the thread and been waiting for a Dev to come along and say "April Fools day!" It just isn't happening. A Turbine Rep put out that Epic Destiny XP wouldn't be affected by Heroic TR's, Y'all are violating that promise and giving the proverbial bird to everyone who's played the game based on that statement.

Please, do NOT touch ED XP during heroic TR's. If you absolutely have to reset all ED XP during TR then alter the system to PERMANENTLY bond (1+ E Life) ED's AND all earned fate points. First ETR life you end up with one ED protected, second gives you two ED's protected, third, fourth fifth etc. Additionally, all Unlocked ED's should remain unlocked. I shouldn't have to work my way from Magister back to Shiradi or vice versus. I already unlocked those and should be able to begin leveling any that I had previously unlocked.

Re: earned fate points being different than store bought, during TR process players receive a Bound Tome of Fate +xxx that matches earned + purchased points. Done, fixed and good to go.

May not be a perfect system but at least it lessens some of the impact to every player (including myself) who was foolish enough to believe Turbines stated intent for how Heroic TR's and ED XP would work.

[Darkrok]

And I haven't mentioned my new plan that involved not paying Turbine a single dime in the future and giving up on any character progression. Here is how I plan to deal with your wiping of ED xp on TR.

1) I have 2 main characters I really care about: Tajawuka - 3 fighter pl, 2 monk pl, currently level 3 on what will be a monk pl (started last night), all ED's level 5, several maxed. Toolbots - 3 wizard pl, currently 18sorc/2paladin with 4/1/1 twists (whatever that works out to ED xp-wise).
2) Toolbots will never TR again. No epic TR. No TR. I'm not willing to regrind all the ED's I did on him for any amount of benefit. He's playable and I can make him work with feat swaps, spell swaps, enhancement swaps, and at worst an LR.
3) Tajawuka, as I mentioned, just TR'd. Toolbots will make sure he has enough tokens to TR every time he re-caps between now and this monstrosity of an update. My kid's been on my case to start TR'ing again anyways as he has a ton of toons across all the heroic levels. Here's my chance to just do it without worrying about gear because again - my new way of playing DDO is based on two goals - spending $0 with Turbine and having fun. That accomplishes both of those goals.
4) Tajawuka will accumulate as many past lives as possible before this awful change. 3 fighter, 3 monk is pretty much a given seeing as how I have 4 months to finish. Depending on motivation 3 ranger is possible and 3 paladin an outside chance. I like focusing this toon on melee and/or ranged damage and tactics so those should be enough to get the job done.
5) Tajawuka's last life before the doomsday update will very likely be a pure class build. I'll have to see but the goal will be to find some build that has the least chance of requiring a TR to fix ever.
6) Once d-day hits...Tajawuka is done TR'ing forever. I might eventually epic TR...doubt it but it could happen. I would never heroic TR. Turbine has killed that part of the game.
7) I might revive some other toons like my first life pure bard or my crafter (assuming he ever gets to high enough levels that I don't need him to be a dragonmarked arti anymore) both of which have little to no ED xp. Those could benefit from the new system and I wouldn't feel cheated in playing them. But given Turbine's history I wouldn't be willing to open back up the wallet for them. And I certainly wouldn't get attached to anything I'd done. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, I punch your face! (http://regularshow.wikia.com/wiki/Fool_Me_Twice_%28Game_Show%29) (sorry in advance...had to lighten things up a bit and when you have kids you watch cartoons :P)

[Renvar]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

I agree with you that the current system actually makes players want to keep TR'ing at 20 rather than going to 25 and then TR'ing. I actually never understood that rule in the first place. Finding a way to make players want to go to 28 and then TR makes total sense. I get this. It is much better for the game and the player.

The implementation is where the thought process breaks down, though.

The idea of Epic PL's is great. It will make people want to go to Epic cap and then TR. As long as the Epic PL's are solid enough. If that was in place from day 1, everyone would think it is great.

You level to 20 and TR you get a heroic PL. You level to 28 and TR you get an Epic PL in whichever capped destiny you choose to "bind" (plus a heroic TR based on your heroic levels). That would make people want to do the epic capping to get the extra PL. Bingo. Incentive to play to cap. That's what they wanted.

The question is: Why is it necessary to reset the ED XP when your do the Epic TR or heroic TR? This is the part of the plan I don't understand. What does it hurt for it to stay? You still have to level all the way to 28 on your next life to get another Epic PL. Having the ED XP still present would not change that. I just don't see any reason you need to reset the ED XP to make the Epic TR and Epic PL system work.

And giving some heroic XP benefit for that XP earned isn't going to make it worthwhile. I don't care if I can do two Heroic TR PL's for free by cashing in my ED XP. I'd rather have the ED XP. This part of the Turbine has come up with is one that destroys months of work for a great deal of the player base for little to no return. And unless I'm missing something, it's totally unnecessary.

[Citzen_Gkar]

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

And thank you for venturing back :)



We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

No, I still don't think you do understand the concern. Leveling from 1-20 is easy (especially with those handy XP stones in store if you are in a rush). But what's more important, it can be fun. You see while you level from 1-20 as a <insert class> you are actually a useful character in all the content you are leveling in. On the other hand, ED forces you to spend more time OUTSIDE a destiny than you are useful in than inside.

To give a concrete example, I'm currently leveling my fighter in LD. I'm having an absolute blast. On the other hand, leveling my sorc in LD was a painful experience that I never want to repeat because the whole LD was USELESS and so they had to stay out of EE content and half the time felt useless in EH. It's not fun. Plus there isn't enough content to avoid grinding quests in EE, unlike Heroic where you truly can run Once on Elite and move on if you want.

Free Heroic levels in no way compensate for lost destines because grinding ED is largely an unfun exercise to begin with.



1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.

Actually your new system short circuit Epic play. You see I right now don't want to earn anymore Epic XP once I have ONE destiny in place until U20 since it will all be wasted (see above in terms of why I think it is a waste). If you want the system to be implimented as you are planning, at a MINIMUM you need to bond ALL maxed out EDs that exist on the day update 20 hits so that people have any reason to continue to play Epic until then.



2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

And what about sphere unlocks? Especially ones using destiny keys?

[Teh_Troll]

Free Heroic levels in no way compensate for lost destines because grinding ED is largely an unfun exercise to begin with.

Exactly. This needs to be tatoo'd to the inside of the developers eyelids.

Leveling 1-20 is fun.

leveling up EDs sucks.

[Atremus]

If we are going to get conversion XP it had better be at a 1:1 rate. I want my 20million XP to do something other than punish me for playing the new DDO ED system that was rolled out last year. And give us the past lives that we technically earned with this new change in game mechanic.



Who short is the planning there? 1 month out??

[Atremus]

leveling up EDs sucks.

This is what the Developers fail to understand I think.

[GermanicusMaximus]

3) Allow those of us who have ED farmed to "bond" one ED for every 10 levels of ED gained. It's a compromise. Essentially, we lose half our EDs to make you happy and you let us keep half our EDs to make us happy. As in every compromise, both parties should feel like they gave up something. I think this would be fair. It also allows room for those of us who would like to keep playing between now and Update 20 to keep earning EDs and know that the more we earn, the more we get to keep.


Ah, the bargaining stage of Kübler-Ross: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model.

Somebody really needs to take the time to define the MMO variant.

[Teh_Troll]

This is what the Developers fail to understand I think.

Hopefully it'll sink in before this game is dead and they're unemployed.