Epic Level & Iconic TR

[oradafu]

However, while that would probably calm some of the crowd, You still need to figure out how to deal with the people who'd want to do the epic TR without losing all their benefits. The most fair thing I can think of would be to allow a 1 month period after the release where a person could epic TR and gain ALL the epic past lives and bond EACH destiny. If they miss the 2 month(or whatever time limit, but i'd say 2 months would be the minimum, since they'd have to hit lvl 28 too)

You're "most fair" solution is only fair for those players who either have capped all the EDs already or players who have a few toons that can cap their characters' EDs within the time frame. It doesn't account for players who have multiple toons that have worked their way through the EDs without capping all of them. You solution also penalizes players who didn't resorting farming a handful of quests (or challenges before the XP nerf) but decided to do the dumb thing and try to play the game for fun.

The best solution is to erase just the level XP while leaving the ED XP alone, but making the player choose which capped ED to bond with to gain benefits when they TR. This way no one is setback from where they are right now, yet everyone can start advancing on the new TR perks roughly at the same time.

[kain741]

You need to reward folks with have ground out their epic destinies more before you implement this. However... TR'ing is optional, not required. It's not a nerf unless they take something you have away from you... you decide if you want to TR and "start fresh".

One more thought:

There is nothing wrong with the ability to get XP (especially with all the boosts, potions, etc...). I would however suggest the xp be ironed out a bit. Run a couple of reports on which quests are ran least frequently (or failed most frequently), and adjust the xp up on those (and maybe down on some others...) accordingly. If you have to spend 15 minutes getting to a quest (e.g. 3 barrel cove), it should be rewarded accordingly. If Coyle likes to run into now uber sonic traps and die... the xp should go up there as well.

And all quests where you MUST be flagged to enter (no-red door) should continue to be rewarded handsomely.


Thats not necessarily true. If we are forced to TR into iconics and new classes to keep our completionist feat, we are then being forced to partake of the ED wipe.

[Psiandron]

First off, Thanks a bunch for this thread.

A lot of us have been hoping for more and improved communication from Turbine and this is the sort of thing we've been wanting. I do hope that this does really represent a chance for us, the players, to provide feedback and thereby influence the direction of the game.

I do hope that you guys in MA don't become skittish at the hue and cry this has raised. Nobody ever said that this sort of thing would automatically be a lovefest. Of course, this is nothing compared to the way it would have been had you waited to drop this bombshell. (Btw, I really want to go drinking with you guys. You must start some amazing barfights. Not that that's ever been a huge challenge in Boston. :P :D)

Okay, to the meat of the issue.
Plans for modifying the TR system; spiffy and swell! Really could probably use some rework.
And, all seems pretty interesting and cool until this:


Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)

Which begat this:


Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)

Which begat this:


With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

WOW!

Okay, let's think about this. I get to take all my levels in all the EDs I've gone through and get bumped up the reincarnation ladder that many ranks.
So, let's say that I'm going to reincarnate a toon with all EDs filled. And, let's say that you're being really sweet and crediting me with the 0 level too. So, 11 EDs minus the one I'm bonded to, so 10 EDs times 6 levels, that's 60 ranks! So, if this is my third life on this toon, that's the equivalent of giving me 1,385,700 xp. Spiffy. And all I had to do was give up 10 fully fleshed out EDs which represents 15,000,000 xp and the twists* that I had which represent the Fate Points that I had earned.

*I'm supposing that twists would disappear, as the points I had spent in those other EDs would have evaporated and those are requisite for twists. To be fair though, it is possible that Turbine intends to grandfather those through.

Does this seem to be a good deal to you?

Don't answer yet because that's not all!
I get to go back and rework all the destinies necessary to get my twists back. * And next life I can go through the same thing, ofc I probably wouldn't be getting very many ranks for free.

There, would you be happy if this were offered to you?

I'm really not trying to be a snarky jerk. It's a gift, what can I say. I'm just restating what you (Turbine) are presenting to us players as the direction that you would like to take things, in terms that one/some/many/all the players may see it.


Sincerely, thanks for bringing this to us.

Glin, sorry you drew the short straw.

Looking forward to seeing what's forthcoming.

[scain]

First off I'm going to qualify myself just a little bit here, just to clarify where my point of view is coming from. Across 6 characters I've done over 60 true resurrections and I've capped fate points on them all, most have multiple destinies currently capped. Obviously I have a fair amount of gaming time on my hands and I'm not a stranger to or unwilling to undertake long grinds. Also I'm still VIP, I've bought all the expansions you've offered and occasionally will buy some turbine points, although I'm likely on the lighter side point buyers. I know I could easily play for free, the expansion pre-order offerings aren't particular attractive to me (for example I've never used the panther or owlbear, much less run around with a cosmetic pet) but I buy in anyhow because DDO needs to make money if the servers are going to stay open. I want to be sure I'm doing my part to see that happens, so I ante up.

Now with that said, what you've proposed is not enticing to me. The main sticking point is wiping all destiny XP. Losing all my destiny XP and twists of fate to be presented with 2 more stat points (that most likely won't be going into a main stat), an as yet unknown bonus based on the capped destiny (although it is probably safe to assume it will be a small bonus as there needs to be some balance between those who have them and those that dont) and a whole heap more XP I need attain again if I want the well twisted characters I once had is not an attractive proposal to me at all. Also as someone who plays everyday and prefers not to solo, I can tell you the in-game reaction to this is not exactly exuberance.

I know some of the design behind this is a hope to increase store sales, I fear you've already chisseled the stone. I just want to ask you think carefully before you implement this on live servers. Despite what people might argue on the forums, the number of people I see running around on a daily basis and particularly in US prime time has been steadily dwindling. I can honestly say the destiny xp grind is one of the dullest grinds I've ever undertaken in an MMO, I did not take the popular dun robar/impossible demands path either instead I would ransack various quests per week. By my sixth character I could barely manage to stay interested in obtaining destiny xp yet oddly the true resurrection system you currently have was still appealing to me. Now I grant that being able to lock in destiny xp would be help alleviate some monotony, this is only going to work if your benefit if you do a lot of ETRs. Those will be ETRS which a large percentage of the time you won't have the twists available that you currently have now and now have to play through three more levels (which is probably safe to assume will require more total xp than the 5 we have now do regardless of what the new xp requirements might be). How much fun does that sound like, really? It's one thing to take away or ask us to willingly take away what we have now if there's some not-to-distant light off in the distance but what has posted is a quite large time investment for any well developed character to return to the what they have currently. What you're proposing seems as though it would work a lot better for newly created characters, something of which I don't exactly see clogging up server I play on.

So TLDR, losing all the destiny XP and twist slots on my characters I've already put *a lot* of time in is not something I'm interested in doing or paying for.

[Silverleafeon]

A lot to look at there.

As my forum title implies, Fawngate of Khyber has already all heroic past life feats allowed.
She has all Epic Destinies capped.

An Epic Destiny TR as per written would eliminate all her Epic Destiny XP except to bond one of them.
She would not receive a heroic past life class feat as she already has the maximum allowed.

An Iconic TR would place her at level 15 + ranks from her now lost Epic Destinies.
Any epic destiny xp earned would be removed and applied to later Iconic TRing.

She crosses the problem others will encounter to that Epic TRing is currently tied
into heroic in an odd sort of way. Many of us have 3 past lives on at least one or two of
our favorite classes, thereby messing up an Epic TR.

An example, say a serious player with a wizard at level 28 wants to Epic TR?
I can guarantee you several things about that wizard.
That wizard already has 3 wizard past lives, therefore a fourth wizard past life
would not be granted.
That wizard likely has multiple capped epic destinies.

They would be facing the same problems I face, and while I am in a mere handful of player,
there are tons of those wizards around.

[Systern]

A point that I haven't seen yet...

My TR junkie toon is going for completionist. Okay, so you're counting Iconics in the completionist feat as well. I now have to do at least 17 lives. If I buy into this system, even though I've done 4 lives already (I started as an altoholic), That's at least 2 lives that I'll have every destiny bonded.

I wanted completionist because it seemed like a fun way to learn and play each class.


I have no desire to learn a class I've never played starting from level 12+.

So, uhhh, yea, forget completionist.

[Qhualor]

The best solution is to erase just the level XP while leaving the ED XP alone, but making the player choose which capped ED to bond with to gain benefits when they TR. This way no one is setback from where they are right now, yet everyone can start advancing on the new TR perks roughly at the same time.

I agree with this. this would make the most sense and people would TR as much and as often as before, but probably a little more since there would be new added benefits than what we have now.

also I will add, skipping over a bunch of low levels I think is a bad idea. I read that there might be a change in TR xp? decreasing the xp requirements to level makes the most sense as it keeps the game across all levels active and epic levels will only keep increasing as time goes on.

[EllisDee37]

Yeah, I really dislike the Epic Advantage. I LIKE to start at level 1 in Korthos. I find it fun to start over from square 1. I also very much like the TP I get from running every quest on elite for bravery.

[Silverleafeon]

Again, an example of Fawngate who can take any purchasable past life feat she desires.

She is level 24 now.
She has taken exactly one past life feat ~ completionist,
and she hesitated to purchase it.


If you are going to redo the whole TR system, please realize no one wants to spend
a feat to get a past life feat. Action points maybe, feats not likely on a serious epic build.

Normally the most a player takes is completionist and wizard for the +1 dcs
or completionist and monk for the extra wrap damage.

[Dreppo]

A point that I haven't seen yet...

My TR junkie toon is going for completionist. Okay, so you're counting Iconics in the completionist feat as well. I now have to do at least 17 lives. If I buy into this system, even though I've done 4 lives already (I started as an altoholic), That's at least 2 lives that I'll have every destiny bonded.

I wanted completionist because it seemed like a fun way to learn and play each class.


I have no desire to learn a class I've never played starting from level 12+.

So, uhhh, yea, forget completionist.

Right now Completionist just requires all the Class Past Life feats. I didn't see any indication in the initial dev post that the Iconic Past Life feats would be added to the requirements for Completionist. Did I miss a post?

[Monkey_Archer]

• True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life.


Yes. Do this.

If I give up my heroic life XP, I get a heroic past life feat
If I give up one epic destiny XP, I get one epic destiny past life feat
If I give up all of my epic destinies XP, I get all of my epic destiny past life feats


Keeping XP in the destiny that you just got a Past life bonus from makes no sense, as does losing XP in a destiny you get nothing for.

[Gremmlynn]

Will this form of TR be DDO-store only?Is that a trick question? Of course it will be mostly store only (think drop rates that make RoSS shards seem common) after two expansions and many other store only items have conditioned us to accept that sort of thing. Welcome to the new and much fairer level sigal that even subscribers will have to buy in order to continue to advance their character.

Also, that 3 day timer on TRs goes with this as it is much better for people to pay for their goods every three days than making them wait a week. Actually, don't be surprised to see the timer go completely away, along with some new aids to faster leveling.

[AtomicMew]

True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

Did you even read the OP?

[SilkofDrasnia]

Let me provide a more specific alternate suggestion:

Epic Destiny True Reincarnation, version 2.0



Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
You must have a maximized ED to complete this TR
Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat


Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny


Destiny XP is reset to zero for the active, maximized Epic Destiny

Other Destinies are not affected


Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build



This makes sense. It does not punish people for having capped out other destinies.

This makes much more sense and is much more inline with how TR works and should be expected to work. Allows those of us that have many destinies maxed to heroic TR or even Epic TR and still have access to our HARD EARNED destinies BUT without the benefits of destiny PL, we would still have to choose to redo each specific destiny to get that destiny PL benefit.

[Lauf]

Yes. Do this.

If I give up my heroic life XP, I get a heroic past life feat
If I give up one epic destiny XP, I get one epic destiny past life feat
If I give up all of my epic destinies XP, I get all of my epic destiny past life feats


Keeping XP in the destiny that you just got a Past life bonus from makes no sense, as does losing XP in a destiny you get nothing for.

This. QFT.

[Systern]

Right now Completionist just requires all the Class Past Life feats. I didn't see any indication in the initial dev post that the Iconic Past Life feats would be added to the requirements for Completionist. Did I miss a post?

That's kind of the point of completionist, isn't it? to accumulate all the past life feats... Seems logical.

[PermaBanned]

So let me see if I have this right...

(paraphrasing) Our plan is that in the near future, in order to gain maximum build/advantage for your character, in order for your character to have "done it all" and aquired every thing it can, you will have to not only run several if not all classes 3x; but also take each life to the current level cap (minimum of 28, may increase later) knowing that any destiny xp you earn beyond 1 full destinies worth will be a total waste (other than getting a few extra ranks at the start of your next life.) Similarly, any destiny xp leveling you've already done beyond 1 destinies worth will be rendered worthless, beyond getting a few extra ranks when you TR."

I notice there is no mention of:

A) What happens to fate points? Do these survive the new TR process, or do they have to be re-earned by bonding all the destinies?

B) How do Iconics affect Completionist? Will all current completionists loose there benefits until they gain the Iconic past lives; thus leaving them no choice but to partake in the new system or loose out on there existing bonous?


Thank you for sharing your long term plan. I think I don't like the planned means of extending game life. I won't say it's a game killer, I will say it sounds like a game killer for me. I'm no longer concerned about what you do with the enhancement pass.

I think you've just gained another game company a minimum of $360 of my money, and I now look forward to running in the shadows more than crawling through the dungeon.

[Silverleafeon]

I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.I am excited too. Thank you for sharing your idea early.



We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected!The iconics look like fun, great idea.
With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year.Kind of saw that coming. Sounds great. There are things there that need reviewing.
The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - Thank you for this opportunity for early feedback.

How does this fit (or change) your playstyle?
Sure, Ill be glad to tell you. Mainly I only play a single character who is an uber completionist with all epic destinies maxed.

Read on for details, then let us know!
Will do

A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:



Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


I like the thought of 38 point build.

I like the idea of Epic Destiny Past life feats if they are passively granted.
Personally, I would remove every purchasable past life feat in the entire game.
A good solid character requires normal feats to function, and we could use a luxury feat or two.
Once more epic feats arrive we will have even less room. It may seem like less options
but in the long run it will grant more.

I don't regard removing my epic destiny xp in exchange for heroic ranks a reward.
I view it as the DM taking my candy away from me.

The next phrase is a bit difficult to understand. I am fearful that Epic Xp will keep
heavily increasing as it already does. Epic level 21 went rather smoothy. Epic level
24 is starting to seem like too much xp required. Should the same pattern continue,
things will get way out of hand.

If you are pondering changing death valley for legend lives, that is the xp for the last
few levels, then I agree that could be nice to reformat. Level 18 and 19 are excessive.

I applaud you for creating a Iconic TR past life passive feat. A purchasable Iconic feat
will gather dust on the shelf and is a total waste of the developers time.

I applaud you for adjusting your views of Iconics and seeing the potential therein.


How does this system look in practice?

Heroic True Reincarnation



Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)
Nothing seems changed here except Epic Advantage.

I would recommend the following changes:
Please make all completionist an auto grant feat.

Please remove all purchasable past life feat, this is very important because
you can recycle them into other passively grant past life feats at a later time.
You will need these inspirations later on, as you are adding tons of various passive
past life feats.


Epic Destiny True Reincarnation



Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat

Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny


Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build

This whole thing has some holes in it, let us try to address them.
You have not stated what happened to the character.
Are you placing us at level one again.
This is huge mistake if you are.

Why are you combining a heroic past life TR feat with an Epic Destiny past life feat.
Don't you realize how many players already have 3 past live in their favorite class?

Please separate these two individual TR types apart.

It would be much better to drop the character down to level 20, granting
a cool epic destiny past life than dropping them back to level 1.

Also do you intend of making level 28 which an odd level to be the place one
Epic TRs always or is it something that will unfairly increase later on? I envisioned
level 30 myself or will it cap at 30 when that is here.

Also can we keep our fate points already earned and earn new ones?
Do you plan on increasing the amount of twists and their levels.
Twists are extremely popular.
I personally would be willing to throw away all my epic destiny xp if you took
the level cap off of twists of fate and allowed us to keep already earned fate points.
Particularly if you keep the same formula and created a four and fifth twist slot.

In fact I might hesitate to bond all of my epic destinies so as to continue earning fate points.


Epic Advantage


With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)
That does not seem like an advantage to me.

Hmm...as I said before, if want to really open up twists of fate, then I don't mind
throwing my epic destiny xp into what I consider a trash can.

Iconic True Reincarnation

That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)



Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
Earns ranks from Epic Advantage

Loving this.

Again, please get rid of purchasable past life feats.

Again, the whole Epic Advantage thing depends on the twists because
the main reason we grind out epic destiny xp is to have more twist slots
and more things to twist into along with unlocking new epic destinies.



What else?

Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:



Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


Reducing the cooldown timer to 3 days sounds about right.

Ah yes, smooth the xp curve would be nice.

Improving lesser reincarnating sounds good.

Allowing Iconics to lesser reincarnate should be high priority.



We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.
This is important to maintain the birds eye view.

The epic destiny system should go up to level 10 at least in due time.
The level cap should go up to level 30 at least in due time, possibly to 40.

All this must be considered.


Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large.
Thank you, the overall ideas to work on are interesting.
I hoped for Iconic TRing and Iconic Past lives.

We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack.Thank you.


The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
I know, me too.

[Gremmlynn]

So, all this bashing and hate is because of the loss of...epic destinies? I shake my head at you people.It's probably more because we actually suffered through the whole process of grinding out those off, and often next to useless to us, ED's the old system required. Just to see them take away what we got for doing so.

I have a feeling that if the current system wasn't such an awful naked grind there wouldn't be so much angst.

to be honest, this new system actually makes more sense than what we have currently. But they are implementing it in a way similar to, say, eliminating the extra xp needed in TR life while nullifying all past lives earned in the old, harder, system.

[Gremmlynn]

Between this and Turbine adding the enchantment pass, I don’t know what to think. We all speculate doom, but it really feels that Turbine wants people to just walk away.I think they are operating under the assumption that simplifying the character build process and replacing the aweful ED system they put in place (never mind that it nullifies what players got for actually participating in it's it's awfulness) that hoards of new players are going to come play their 7 year old game.

That, or they are just using us as systems play testers for some new game.

[Azarddoze]

I think I understand what they are trying to do. When you TR, you need to lose power and the only way to do that is to unable you to use a full maxed out ED to level from 20-28. That makes sense.

Now the real problem, as some people pointed out is if you have all your destiny maxed out atm and remember what it took you to do that... you're simply disgusted. But in reality, if you're going to chain TR EDs (because honestly this is not for everyone), you can max out your main destiny and pretty much all the needed twists or simply your main destiny (for power) + the one you want to get the TR from and that, just by reaching cap. One class simply doesn't have a need for every single destiny.

But you MUST keep all trees unlocked and most likely your fate points. Or then that... would be totally ridiculous.

[Silverleafeon]

Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments: Thank you for communicating with us.


• Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
I like the fact that free to play players can earn a true heart of wood.
I like the fact that you will offer the same opportunity with Epic Destiny


• We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.

:)

• To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny. Ok, but remember many player have at least one toon with all epic destinies capped.

• We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace. Thank you for reviewing the spiral of xp.

• True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.I am glad you want to listen.
I very much would like a series of spell like abilities offered as past life feats, that have a cooldown only
and no x uses per day limitation.

Please allow me to earn the follow spell like abilities:
Cure Moderate Wounds
Searing Light
Web
Dimension Door
Scorching Ray

Please convert these purchasable past life feat into a passive one to be earned somehow:

Past Life: Bardic Dilettante Past Life You recall more about your past life as a bard. You have +1 to all Charisma based skills, +1 to the DC's of your Enchantment spells, and can Inspire Courage three times per rest. (Activate this bard ability to rally your companions, giving them a +1 morale bonus to saves against fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls before enhancements.)
(Having this scale with class level would make it very desirable).

Past Life: Arcane Initiate Past Life You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +1 to the DC's of spells you cast and can cast the magic missile spell ten times per rest, creating a missile of magical energy (Magic Missile) that darts forth and unerringly strikes its target inflicting 1d4+1 force damage. For every 2 caster levels beyond first you gain an additional missile, maximum 10 missiles.
(Change 10/rest into 8 second cooldown and I would love to gain this somehow.)

Past Life: Acolyte of Divine Secrets Past Life You recall more about your past life as a Favored Soul. You have +2 to your Diplomacy skill and can call down the wrath of your former deity, producing an Avenging Light effect ten times per rest. (Activate this Favored Soul ability to cause a searing orb of radiant light to smite your target, dealing 1d8 hit points of light damage plus an additional 1d8 per three caster levels.)
(Change 10/rest into 5 second cooldown and I would love to gain this somehow.)


Past Life: Arcane Prodigy Past Life You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at first level, and 5 spell points for each additional level and can produce random elemental damage spells ten times per rest. (Activate this sorcerer ability to blast a target with a ray of combined elements, doing 1d12 damage of a random elemental type plus an additional 1d12 per three caster levels on impact. A successful Reflex save reduce the damage by half.)
(Change 10/rest into 8 second cooldown and I would love to gain this somehow.)

I would like to see all the purchaseable past life feats removed, revised and reformatted into auto grant passive past life feats.

We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).Please take the level cap off of twists.
Evasion is a Tier 5 twist in primal Avatar.
I would honestly throw away every epic destiny rank that I currently have if
you would allow me to keep my current fate points and increase my first twist level
to obtain this precious twist.

Please grant us unlimited twist slots with ever increasing cost to unlock and expand them.

Please allow us to keep already earned fate points.

Please expand completionist into multiple forms.

For example new completionist auto granted feats for:

Completionist all classes done once +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores
Completionist all classes done twice +3 bonus to all skills and ability scores
Completionist all classes done thrice +4 bonus to all skills and ability scores

Completionist all Iconics done once
Completionist all Iconics done twice
Completionist all Iconics done thrice

Completionist all Epic Destinies done once

That would be a lot of new auto grant completionist feats.


I cannot stress enough that having to pay a feat to gain
any past life feat is a bad idea.


I cannot stress enough that releasing fates and twists are the prime point
of success or failure in epic tring.

[nni]

The way I understand the system to be designed, it is set up to allow new players to acquire these new ED past life feats, while severely discouraging anyone that has ground all ED xp from participating in this system. Perhaps an attempt to "level the playing field"?

Either way, it looks like something that would cause a lot of hardcore players to quit the game, if faced with the prospect of having to re-grind for the >21 million ED xp.

[redspecter23]

Another random suggestion here to add to the pile. How about for an epic advantage, instead of adding a rank for every destiny level (added on at the start), give me a stone of experience (+1 level) for every maxed destiny when I EDTR? That way I get to choose which levels I skip (the later ones, duh) and get maximum use out of my epic advantage instead of wasting it on lowbie levels that take minimal time to breeze through. It would also let me set up an Otto's Box stone (8 to 16) the way I want and if I don't use all my epic advantage stones on any given life (maybe I choose to use only 2 per life to skip level 18 and 19), I can just toss them in the bank to use on my next one. Or I could save them for epic levels as well to skip from level 27 to 28 for example if I want to do another TR on the spot.

Anyway, it seemed like a good idea in my head.

[Silverleafeon]

If we are allowed to keep our fate points and if twists no longer have a level cap,
and if three more twist slots are granted then this whole things has some promise.

Suddenly one can level up in one's favorite destinies to earn fate points.

Suddenly one can earn the cheaper ranks for twist points.

In fact throwing away all your epic destiny xp could be a huge advantage.
So much that the Devs might have to adjust the xp needed per ranks,
because the lowest ranks are so much easier to earn.


If we are not allowed the above, then I really do not see any of this being worthwhile....


But regardless epic destiny xp should only be affected by an Epic TR.

[cypan41]

Only way I would even contemplate doing this is if they took the xp I spent on ED's. Added it up, and gave me bonus feats as if I had used that xp to level. Would it be fair, yep, I think so. Would it be game breaking? Probably. But basically it wouldn't be any worse than this ludicrous idea.

[Ilindith]

Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.


I would have liked that 35 lives ago.

If you make it easier can I have free extra lives based on the difference between old and new amount of experience required to cap a TR? Cause, you know, you'd be invalidating millions worth of acquired exp.

Also, losing ED experience on TR is, ridiculous.

[Ykt]

Turbine decided to separate Heroic Levels from Epic Levels/Epic Destinies, it makes sense that the TR system should separate Heroic TR and Epic/ED TR.

Doing an Heroic TR should not affect Epic Destinies.

Who would give up 20 million XP?

With the increased in power, Past Life feats should scale accordingly. How about automatically granting Active PL feats along with the Passive ones?

[Silverleafeon]

Turbine decided to separate Heroic Levels from Epic Levels/Epic Destinies, it makes sense that the TR system should separate Heroic TR and Epic/ED TR.

Doing an Heroic TR should not affect Epic Destinies.

Who would give up 20 million XP?

+1

Please separate epic destiny TRing and heroic TRing totally.

We want choices and control over our toons.

[BOgre]

OK, this plan is disastrous for people with fully capped EDs. Obviously (how it's not obvious to the devs is beyond me).
But it might even be WORSE for those of us that are still working on it. What incentive do I have to run my Ranger who's only has 2 Spheres done? Any XP I earn towards my not yet done EDs might be for nothing in a few months? I mean unless I decide to never ETR him? You've just made it so that I have no reason to login to my ED-in-progress toon.

I'm just in shock over here.

[Silverleafeon]

TR cache. Let's face it, over each character's life, we accumulate items and what not that are useful to us (and for many of us, we also take the time to accumulate loot that will benefit our next planned life [or lives]). Problem is, we simply don't have enough inventory/bank space to store all the junk we accumulate (and while it is true that you can probably destroy a good amount of it, eventually, it's going to get to a point where all "junk" you have in your TR cache is valuable, hard-to-obtain loot that you don't want to throw away).

My suggestion: Either make it so you don't have to clear out your TR cache before you TR, OR offer us Supreme Enchanted Bags of Holding (SEBoH) that work like Colossal bags that are capable of holding THOUSANDS of unique items (complete with a search function as with the other bags, and also adding an advanced search/organization feature to quickly and more easily find desired items). Should you go along with the route of adding supreme enchanted bags, there are two critical functions that need to be added to make this work.

a) GM-Flagging: Basically, whenever you put in (or remove) an item from this bag, it leaves a flag or tracer for a GM/Turbine Account staff. The purpose of this is to prevent situations wherein if the player, for whatever reason, winds up LOSING their Supreme Enchanted Bags of Holding (usually by glitch) via TR'ing or whatever (and by extension, EVERYTHING they put into the now lost bag), it would enable a GM/Turbine Account staff to quickly find and retreive those items. This feature would also work in such a way that items stored within other bags that THEN wind up into the SEBoH would also be recorded so no one has to worry about losing collectables (such as Flawless Red Dragon scales), or Ingredients (such as that once-in-a-millenium-super-ultra-hyper-rare Shard of the Ring of Spell Storing) in the event that the bag gets lost.

b) Multi-selector: Another annoying feature of TR caches is that you must Meticulously, and painstakingly empty your cache ONE. ITEM. AT. A. TIME. These SEBoH's should offer the ability to select multiple items (or even the ability to take ALL of them out at once, if one should so desire), and with a single click, receive those items.

Generally it would take Fawngate almost a whole day to deal with emptying her TR cache.
I agree if you plan on creating all this new TRing, you seriously need to address our issues on inventory.

[mikarddo]

Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:

• To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.


Thats all fine but it promotes chain TRing where you only just get to lvl 28 and then TR again. It adds nearly nothing to those that change class and stay for a longer while at level 28 before doing their next TR and hence make building a community much harder. The socalled Epic Advantage is simply too tiny to even matter for someone with many or all of the 11 ED maxed.

What you should do is this:
- Wipe ED xp if you really have to and it seems you probably do.
- Keep any unlocked destinies unlocked after any kind of TR. (this is hugely important)
- Keep all points of faith when doing any sort of TR, Obviously only allow gained addition points once the previous number of ED ranks is exceeded to avoid complete power creep. (this is similarly hugely important)
- Add one point of faith per Epic TR (once per destiny for a max of 11) and add a 4th slot for twists when 11 destinies are bounded. No need to add passive feats or anything as this alone should be plenty to entice players - in particular the 4th slot. If Epic TR is about wiping ED xp then it should also add to ED abilities and twists are the reasonable way to do this.
- Have the Epic Advantage be optional and have it add 3 ranks of Heroic xp per rank of ED XP rather than a puny 1 rank. Epic TR should not be about redoing Heroic levels so add the option to make enough epic XP to thus bypass the heroic levels.

[Silverleafeon]

Problem #1: Your "Epic Advantage" is only really "Epic" if you TR into an Iconic (seeing as you start at level 15, and could potentially be boosted to level 20). In practice, this does more harm than good (even for Iconics) because it currently takes a considerable amount of time to level or farm a destiny without experience potions, and with your current proposition, it seems flat out wasteful to TR.

Proposed Solution #1: Epic Advantage should MEAN Epic Advantage; when you Epic TR, you should receive: either SP or HP (depending on the destiny you "bonded" with), a MEANINGFUL boost granted by the epic destiny (for example, those who TR'ed bonding with Legendary Dreadnaught should receive a stacking +20 boost to the DC's of their tactical abilities [+20 may seem like a lot, but really it's not when you consider the inflated saves of enemy mobs, especially Epic Elites]), AND... a flag.

Yes, a flag - When you ED TR a certain number of times, you get additional benefits. Below is a rough outline of what I have in mind:

2-3 destinies bonded: a stacking +20 boost to your universal spell power, +2% to hit and damage with all weapons, and +1 to all saves.

4 destinies bonded - Your knowledge of the Universe has expanded greatly, and you have become proficient with manipulating your fate - As such, you are now able to have two epic destinies active at any given time (though only one of them can be bonded).

5-6 destinies bonded: the boosts provided in #1 increases to +50 stacking boost to your universal spell power, +5% to hit and damage with all weapons, and +3 to all saves. The DC's of ALL your spells (if applicable) are increased by +5.

7 Destinies bonded: You receive 4 additional action points for each of the destinies you've bonded with so far. This would allow a player to unlock more abilities (or ability scores), thus granting greater benefits.

8 Destinies bonded: You permanently receive 2 additional epic feat slots (one at level 22, and another at level 25).


9 Destinies bonded: *like the 7 destinies bonded tier, but for nine destinies.*


10 Destinies bonded: Sage of the Ages: Your knowledge of the Universe continues to grow - you can now have 3 destinies active at any given time.

11 Destinies bonded/Completionist: A Deity Amongst Mortals - Your understanding of the Universe has expanded to such a degree that you've nearly become a god. Passive feat - You gain +8 stacking boost to all ability scores and skills. Your Spellpower (if applicable) is increased by 200, your spell DC's are increased by 20, and your to-hit and weapon damage is increased by 20. Furthermore, all active destinies have their effects doubled (example - The ability score boosts in Sentinel would now grant +2 per tier instead of +1, Adrenaline Overload grants an 800% damage boost instead of 400%). This feat becomes inactive when more destinies are added.
I like your thinking.
A bit over the top, but certainly interesting.


Problem/Question #1: What happens to the fate points when you TR seeing as you lose all levels from unbonded destinies?

Solution #2a: If we lose fate points - don't let us lose fate points. Please! :)

Solution #2b: If we don't, make it to where we can eventually twist more than three slots(?)
Agreed and take the level cap off twists.


Problem #2: Having players lose Epic Destiny exp from non-bonded destinies just from a Heroic TR is a bad idea. Such a bad idea that I feel it would gravely penalize those who simply want to TR out of a build that becomes invalidated (read, worthless from a nerf to some gameplay feature, bug, or "balance" pass).

Solution #2: Heroic TRing should be left as it is - you don't lose any Epic destiny exp, but you also don't get Epic Destiny past life feats.
Agreed.

Problem #3: +2 stat points to make a 38-point build (and only a 38-point build) seems kinda trivial for what is incurred, and is not much incentive to TR (especially if all we have to show for each destiny TR is a meager feat that almost isn't the sacrifice to gain it).

Solution #3: Enable players to get as high as 44-point builds (this would encourage multiple Destiny TR's, imo).
A good point.

I like the thought of extra build point for the first few Epic TRs.
44 seems a bit much, perhaps 42?


Question #2: Will Iconic Past Life feats benefit non-iconic characters when you TR out of them, and will they be benefits that are locked to a specific class/race (I.E. Bladeforged PL's benefitting only warforged and Paladins, and not really benefitting anyone else)?
Nods in earnest.
Make past life feats widely useful.

Problem #4: Non-bonded Epic Destiny levels being placed into heroic levels seems rather... flawed.

Solution #4: Epic Destiny exp should not be poured into heroic leveling... at least, not against our will. At the very least, let us choose when to apply that exp with regards to applying exp (this wouldn't be too bad in the level 18-20 range). However, it would be preferable to keep Epic and Heroic Exp totally seperate (see far above).
Please just eliminate any thought of epic destiny xp loss when Heroic TRing or Iconic TRing.

What you do with Epic Destiny Xp while Epic TRing is well...

[Silverleafeon]

I'm just in shock over here.

I think its safe to say we all are in shock.

Iconic TRing, yes I expected.

A review of heroic TRing I hoped for.

Epic Destiny TRing, oh my oh my...

[Gremmlynn]

I would like to add that if fate points were locked, then the system would work a hell of a lot better. Anything short of that is just going to really **** off a whole lot of otherwise loyal fans of the game.

Edit: Unless we hear something soon, this may be my last post. 1,337 posts would be a nice number to leave on.Also lock in access to any destiny we have ever had access to. Just locking fate points wont take away needing to waste time grinding 4 levels here and 3 there just to get to the destiny we actually want to get a twist from.

[Silverleafeon]

- Keep all points of faith when doing any sort of TR,
Definitely this will decide whether Fawngate ever TRs again.


Obviously only allow gained addition points once the previous number of ED ranks is exceeded to avoid complete power creep. (this is similarly hugely important)
No offense to you, but this is completely unacceptable.

[Silverleafeon]

Also lock in access to any destiny we have ever had access to. Just locking fate points wont take away needing to waste time grinding 4 levels here and 3 there just to get to the destiny we actually want to get a twist from.

+1

Think Artificer needing Shirda to function...

[Gremmlynn]

Okay, hows this sound.

Heroic TR: No change.

Epic TR: Gain the past life feat for a chosen capped destiny, gain a past life feat for primary heroic class. Restart as a level 1 with all xp removed from the chosen destiny, but other destinies are unaffected.


Though there is one way I could support the dev proposal. If any bonded destiny was always considered active. Bond them all and receive the benefits for having all active at all times. That would be worth trading all the painful off destiny grind for.

[Silverleafeon]

Okay, hows this sound.

Heroic TR: No change.Ok


Epic TR: Gain the past life feat for a chosen capped destiny, gain a past life feat for primary heroic class. Restart as a level 1 with all xp removed from the chosen destiny, but other destinies are unaffected.
Would prefer:
Epic TR: Gain the past life feat for a chosen capped destiny. Restart as a level 20 with all xp removed from the chosen destiny, but other destinies are unaffected.

Hmm...possibly you have something good there.
Can I keep my current fate points and continue to add 1 per 3 epic destiny levels earned?

Though there is one way I could support the dev proposal. If any bonded destiny was always considered active. Bond them all and receive the benefits for having all active at all times. That would be worth trading all the painful off destiny grind for.
That would be too powerful in time.
No offense but that is what happened during the exploit that will not be named.

[Silverleafeon]

That would be great argument if they were introducing this "TR" system at the same time as the ED system.

Yanking the rug out from under us by completely changing the way it works AFTER we put months of playing (and paying) into leveling up our EDs is just screwing over their customers.

Also, I personally thought the preservation of EDs was a very nice feature. You could work on them a bit here, a bit there, TR, and then work on them some more.

If I am a Fighter20 and TR, I lose all that FIGHTER XP, and get a Fighter past life, but I don't lose anything Wizard-related at all. If they want to have ED TRing, you should lose only the ONE ED you are TRing, not unrelated ones.

+1 and probably a wise direction to travel.

If we kept our current fate points and gained new one especially.

Bonding locks an epic destiny forever.

By only resetting one epic destiny each epic TR, the potential for abusive fate farming
is lowered, and players will not feel like they are losing so much.

They will have other destinies to fall back upon.

[mikarddo]

Definitely this will decide whether Fawngate ever TRs again.

No offense to you, but this is completely unacceptable.

None taken. I consider your suggestions to be way over the top in terms of unrealistic power creep so I didnt expect you to like my more moderate suggestions either.

I will ask you to notice that I also posted that each Epic TR (once per destiny) should add 1 point of fate.

I suppose we just have to agree to disagree on this.

[TimethiefXVI]

Turbine, by now you should have realised that your idea to wipe off EDs is BAD. Want some reasons?

You implemented Epic and Heroic lvl in a different way. While you select a class in the heroics, you only get an overall "epic" class in the epic lvls, the difference is in the EDs. You splitted the quests into heroics and epics. There are enhancements in heroics, but not in epics (respectively the EDs could work as a form of enhancements). Players could save thier epic progress and return to work out thier character in heroics, just when they felt to, or go back to rework theier epic progress.

Because of this split that you made, i cant see any reason (at least reasonable) that any H(eroic)TR (below cap) should effect any epic progress at all. You seperated them, which was kind of annoying for me at the beginning, but after all i think this was a rather wise decission.

Now keep them seperated. The story of the destenies allows perfectly well to transform into heroic xp boosts (your destenies, written in the stars blablabla) as you suggested. But the progress the players have earned should not be in vain. Esp if they have put a lot of hard work and money ALREADDY into it.
You stated that the progress in the EDs will STAY during a TR. Thats why people invested time and money into it. Changing the rules now, would be like luring people into investing into a fictionary firm.
What id like to see from you, before we talk about epic past lifes is the recognisation that this mechanic is a bad idea, and tha you will split ETR and HTR appart, making HTR effecting all lvl, but no EDs, and ETR effecting lvl 20 to cap and EDs
Further more wiping out ALL the EDs, is a bad idea. The gain is too small for the effort.

Suggestion: In order to TR one ED you have to sacrefice a second one.
You loose 2 EDs during the ETR and restart at lvl 20

Towards the ITR i just want to add: IPLs must not effect the completionist feat, and i have a question: do you recieve BOTH class and race PLs or just the racial one?

[Ryiah]

Read on for details, then let us know!

Why bother? At this point I have no faith in Turbine or their ability to listen to what we as the players would like.

[cru121]

Thats all fine but it promotes chain TRing where you only just get to lvl 28 and then TR again. It adds nearly nothing to those that change class and stay for a longer while at level 28 before doing their next TR and hence make building a community much harder. The socalled Epic Advantage is simply too tiny to even matter for someone with many or all of the 11 ED maxed.

What you should do is this:
- Wipe ED xp if you really have to and it seems you probably do.
- Keep any unlocked destinies unlocked after any kind of TR. (this is hugely important)
- Keep all points of faith when doing any sort of TR, Obviously only allow gained addition points once the previous number of ED ranks is exceeded to avoid complete power creep. (this is similarly hugely important)
- Add one point of faith per Epic TR (once per destiny for a max of 11) and add a 4th slot for twists when 11 destinies are bounded. No need to add passive feats or anything as this alone should be plenty to entice players - in particular the 4th slot. If Epic TR is about wiping ED xp then it should also add to ED abilities and twists are the reasonable way to do this.
- Have the Epic Advantage be optional and have it add 3 ranks of Heroic xp per rank of ED XP rather than a puny 1 rank. Epic TR should not be about redoing Heroic levels so add the option to make enough epic XP to thus bypass the heroic levels.

Thank you for making a realistic proposal.
* Wipe ED XP because that's what epic TR is about
* Keep unlocked destinies unlocked! YES
* Keep faith points + don't gain more until x. YES, this would be nice to have
* Add 1 faith point per ED TR. YES
* Add 4th twist - I'd prefer this one sooner, perhaps on the first ED TR actually. You can add 5th twist at ED completionist, but I don't care cause I'll never get it
* Epic Advantage: Give one Stone of Experience (+1 heroic level) (BtA) for each capped destiny.

[oradafu]

- Wipe ED xp if you really have to and it seems you probably do.


There isn't a good reason to wipe ED XP at all. The Devs can do everything they want without touching ED XP on any player, whether all the EDs are capped, some of the EDs are capped or no EDs are capped.

I'll repeat what I've said before... The only thing that needs to be wiped is the Epic level XP. When a toon does TRs, they should be able to choose a single ED to bond with to gain the new perks that are added to the game. The player will still need to level back up to 28 before they can bond with a new ED. All players will be roughly in the same boat to gain all the new Epic TR perks. The only difference is that players who have capped more than one ED will have more choices on which ED to start bonding with when this new system starts. So there's no reason to wipe ED XP.

As far as the argument about access to more than one ED when you TR is too overpowered, then that should have been fixed a year ago. Since it was fixed a year ago, I'm going to assume there was no problems until now in the Devs' minds that they were too powerful.

To go a step further, if the Devs think that access to multiple EDs and the new TR perks will be too powerful to benefit this early into the process, then everything they are proposing is too overpowered because we'll eventually get to the place where someone has unlocked every ED, but they will also have every TR perk that will be added to the game.

So Turbine is being a false narrative by saying that they need to erase all ED XP on the front end, because the back end of what they are proposing is even more powerful. By erasing the ED XP, they will be causing some major ill will with the player base who have grinded or are still grinding out EDs currently. If they keep the ED XP, the players who have been working in the EDs (for any amount of time, at any length of progress) will have a slight advantage to players who haven't started in the EDs at all...

Unless the Devs can't move away from the Epic Advantage idea. This might be the crux of the problem with keeping the ED XP. Again, it's the creation of the Devs not the players if this is the problem. But as others have pointed out, skipping the first 11 levels doesn't really speed up the grind. Those are usually the fastest levels to go through. Not to mention that it's levels 12 to 20 that needs more quests and XP, so the halt in the TR grind will probably stay the same, even with adjusted XP levels. Also, others have pointed out that players would need to have the same amount of EDs ground out to TR together. So this would have an equal amount (or perhaps surpass) of negative impact to grouping that the Bravery Bonus had.

You know, I really want to like the Epic TR idea, but the ED XP wipe in any form is a killer. The Epic Advantage is a good idea in theory, but if you think about it for more than a glancing minute, it becomes obvious that it will be both bad for the game and doesn't really fix the currently truly bad grind area at all. The more and more I think about what's being proposed, the less and less I like. If implemented, I'm seeing little reason to log into the game on players that are nearly fleshed out. So that means that I'd have to have a perfectly made character by the time Update 20 comes out (which will never happen since Turbine keeps move the ball on what builds work and what builds don't) or I have to start from scratch... And I'm too old and tired to start from scratch.

[Dandonk]

Also, others have pointed out that players would need to have the same amount of EDs ground out to TR together.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. A very good point, it will make TRing even more annoying when my TR buddies will not start in the same place.

[Silverleafeon]

None taken. I consider your suggestions to be way over the top in terms of unrealistic power creep so I didnt expect you to like my more moderate suggestions either.

I will ask you to notice that I also posted that each Epic TR (once per destiny) should add 1 point of fate.

I suppose we just have to agree to disagree on this.

Actually if only the active Epic Destiny xp was reset, not all of them then I would consider your points more.

- Wipe ED xp if you really have to and it seems you probably do.
{how about only the active ED wiped}

- Keep any unlocked destinies unlocked after any kind of TR. (this is hugely important)
{agreed}

- Keep all points of faith when doing any sort of TR, Obviously only allow gained addition points once the previous number of ED ranks is exceeded to avoid complete power creep. (this is similarly hugely important)
{Ok, as long as the past life auto grant feat is awesome. I don't want to start a grind fest for everyone.}

- Add one point of faith per Epic TR (once per destiny for a max of 11) and add a 4th slot for twists when 11 destinies are bounded. No need to add passive feats or anything as this alone should be plenty to entice players - in particular the 4th slot. If Epic TR is about wiping ED xp then it should also add to ED abilities and twists are the reasonable way to do this.
{Well, I still want my auto grant past life feat.}

- Have the Epic Advantage be optional and have it add 3 ranks of Heroic xp per rank of ED XP rather than a puny 1 rank. Epic TR should not be about redoing Heroic levels so add the option to make enough epic XP to thus bypass the heroic levels.
{If I Epic TR, I don't want start at level one, I want to start at level 20. If one wanted to heroic TR right after
that should be one's choice in the matter. As far as getting Epic Xp, I'll totally pass on that, give me a nice
past life instead.}

[Silverleafeon]

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. A very good point, it will make TRing even more annoying when my TR buddies will not start in the same place.

Yeah, Epic Advantage should be tossed out the window.

[SisAmethyst]

• True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

Thanks for the feedback. While I agree that TRing is about a trade-off this and I even understand why you would do this on a epic TR, this will kill heroic TR. This is in the same ball park as people stopped TRing after eating +3 or +4 Tomes to not loose them. It is like saying "Ok, you unlocked Vet-Status, but if you TR the first time you will start at 28pt +2 = 30pt, because you didn't bond your Veteran status yet".

I know epic destinies can be acquired relative quick, even thou I very much disagree that the average player will be able to do this on a weekend. Especially since Rusted Blades and others wheres changed. Some players may even not want to epic TR but may be more or less forced into due to the enhancement pass. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of good ideas, but loosing all Destinies and including this also possible Fate points, unlocked Destinies on a heroic TR isn't a very welcoming idea!

[Silverleafeon]

Thank you for making a realistic proposal.
* Wipe ED XP because that's what epic TR is about
* Keep unlocked destinies unlocked! YES
* Keep faith points + don't gain more until x. YES, this would be nice to have
* Add 1 faith point per ED TR. YES
* Add 4th twist - I'd prefer this one sooner, perhaps on the first ED TR actually. You can add 5th twist at ED completionist, but I don't care cause I'll never get it
* Epic Advantage: Give one Stone of Experience (+1 heroic level) (BtA) for each capped destiny.

Now we getting close.

Wipe only active epic destiny, not all.

Drop me back to level 20, not 1.

Give me decent auto grant past life.

Deal.

[Gremmlynn]

That would be too powerful in time.
No offense but that is what happened during the exploit that will not be named.Yes, very much so. But it is about the minimum acceptable exchange for the horrid grind that leveling multiple off destinies is.

Which was the point. It just seems that nobody on the dev team realizes just how bad a system it is we are putting up with, or maybe they do as they are changing it. But, at the least, they seem to have little appreciation for how miffed some of us are over losing everything we got from using with their awful system. If the system hadn't of been so bad to start we likely would be a lot less vocal right now.

[Flavilandile]

Ok, now that I've slept on the announcement here is my cold reaction on it :

It's Too late for what you plan.

If you had given us Epic TR that way last year, it wouldn't have been a problem as everybody would have known the rules before developing any Epic destiny, and actually it would have been an interesting thing.

As things are, it's too late, lots of us have several capped destinies ( when not all ) and they are unwilling to loose that on their characters.
So you just killed the game for these characters, as they won't be TRed anymore.

This is further compounded by the fact that we were told several month ago that loosing Epic Destinies XP when doing an Heroic TR was not WAI.

[Silverleafeon]

Having some second thoughts about gaining 1 fate point per epic TR being enough.
Simply put, perhaps we should look at numbers here:

I took Fawngate the market place and reset her Fate Points.
She has 20 which the max you can have.
Two were purchased from the DDO store.
Eighteen of them were earned by maximizing all her epic destinies.

Unlock Twist one tier one: 1 fate point
Unlock Twist one tier two: 2 fate points
Unlock Twist one tier three: 3 fate points
Unlock Twist one tier four: 4 fate points

Unlock Twist two tier one: 2 fate point
Unlock Twist two tier two: 3 fate points
Unlock Twist two tier three: 4 fate points
Unlock Twist two tier four: 5 fate points

Unlock Twist three tier one: 3 fate point
Unlock Twist three tier two: 4 fate points
Unlock Twist three tier three: 5 fate points
Unlock Twist three tier four: 6 fate points

{Note that Fawn could view but not unlock twist three tier four,
although she has many fate points.}

So, by expanding the math:

Unlock Twist four tier one: 4 fate point
Unlock Twist four tier two: 5 fate points
Unlock Twist four tier three: 6 fate points
Unlock Twist four tier four: 7 fate points

Unlock Twist fivr tier one: 5 fate point
Unlock Twist five tier two: 6 fate points
Unlock Twist fire tier three: 7 fate points
Unlock Twist five tier four: 8 fate points

I hope people can see where my extra fate points from the epic destines are going to
be very quickly spent.


If we allowed each epic destiny to become bounded after being reset once,
then one could gain up to 36 fate points without using the DDO Store.

How far will 36 fate points go?

Twist one tier four costs 10 fate points
Twist two tier four costs 14 fate points
Twist three tier three costs 12 fate points

And its already all spent...

If you unlock a fourth twist tier one, then I have to drop Twist three down to tier two.
Granting 4/4/2/1

Massive amounts of fate points will go very quickly with the escalating twist math.

Can you see why I don't object to large gains in fate points?


Also, a point not brought up, she is one xp point away from level 6 on every epic destiny.
This is major thing to throw away. I suspect she is not the only one.

Also, why give us Epic TRing now when the Epic destinies need to have the next 5 levels added to them?

[Silverleafeon]

Yes, very much so. But it is about the minimum acceptable exchange for the horrid grind that leveling multiple off destinies is.

Which was the point. It just seems that nobody on the dev team realizes just how bad a system it is we are putting up with, or maybe they do as they are changing it. But, at the least, they seem to have little appreciation for how miffed some of us are over losing everything we got from using with their awful system. If the system hadn't of been so bad to start we likely would be a lot less vocal right now.
I agree.

I think they just painted Fawngate into a corner after all.

And I had such high hopes for Iconic TRing...

[Blue100000005]

Thanks for all this info. It's much to digest.

I was talking it over with a guildie, and one concern is that as the XP curve is revisited, and it will be easier to TR (Heroic)--it will sort of feel like a kick in the chops to those completionists and multiple TR folks who spent the greater part of a few years doing such.

It's progress and "moving forward", but it may be prudent to give at least a symbolic reward to those vets and founders whom ground-out the XP and TR'd before this new change takes effect. No, I'm not discounting the boost to VIP XP, the Founder's Helm, Boots, and I do appreciate the exclusive forum avatars.

Maybe an automatic XP boost if an epic TR is done, or a free "Been Through Death and Back" feat for those who TR'd prior to the change X many times, or those who are current completionists.

In this way, you then bring new people into a robust system of character development, and you satisfy some of the concerns of those who have been around for years (or the start of it all) by rewarding them with something that is not necessarily game breaking.

I see myself doing the Epic TRs on my TR/completionist character. It might be cool to put him through the Iconic wringer a few times :).

My other characters may do one or two of these depending on the benefit of the epic past life feats.

All this of course depends on what the reality of it is...



You get a cookie, good job. Get over it. You Chose to sit on your a@@ and do it.


Either way they choose, i feel a better description would be the most advantageous thing to do at this point. Currently this thread is mostly speculation.

[Silverleafeon]

I dunno, seems unlikely. People on the hamster wheel = more revenue; I think Turbine knows that TR'ing is a revenue generator for them, much more so than a specific content pack?

Here's the million-dollar question for me: will losing ED xp result in loss of unlocked twist slots? If I get to keep all fate points (or potentially earn even more than the current max) by re-leveling destinies, I might consider it. That potentially cuts out a *lot* of the re-grind; usually only two or three of the EDs are ones I *actually* care about; all the others I'm leveling (and being annoyed about being in, most of the time) purely to generate fate points for twists.

I'll take my Pale Master as an example. The destinies I'm actually using, between active use and twists, are DI, Magister, and Shiradi. If I "lock in" Shiradi, keep all my twist slots as they stand, and start leveling up DI/Magister again at 20, earning *more* fate points to the point where I can twist 4/4/4, I'm interested. If all fate points/slots are lost, too, then I'm out, and never TR'ing.

I think he sums it up right here.

I return to my original point, I'll throw all my Epic destiny xp in the trash can,
if you let us keep our already earned fate points, because that is the only reason
Fawngate leveled up some of those epic destinies, and you remove the level cap
from twists, and you grant us more twist slots.

[Silverleafeon]

There is a ton of potential with twists, but the only way to earn fate points atm
is to create new epic destinies or increase the level of epic destinies.

You should separate heroic and epic and iconic.
Heroic and Iconic TR should not affect epic destinies.

You should consider creating multiple epic TRing.

One that leaves the epic desties alone and returns you to level 20.
One that reset the active epic destiny only and returns you to level 20.
One that reset all your epic destinies and returns you to level 20.

Choices are good.

[Gremmlynn]

Having some second thoughts about gaining 1 fate point per epic TR being enough.
Simply put, perhaps we should look at numbers here:

I took Fawngate the market place and reset her Fate Points.
She has 20 which the max you can have.
Two were purchased from the DDO store.
Eighteen of them were earned by maximizing all her epic destinies.

Unlock Twist one tier one: 1 fate point
Unlock Twist one tier two: 2 fate points
Unlock Twist one tier three: 3 fate points
Unlock Twist one tier four: 4 fate points

Unlock Twist two tier one: 2 fate point
Unlock Twist two tier two: 3 fate points
Unlock Twist two tier three: 4 fate points
Unlock Twist two tier four: 5 fate points

Unlock Twist three tier one: 3 fate point
Unlock Twist three tier two: 4 fate points
Unlock Twist three tier three: 5 fate points
Unlock Twist three tier four: 6 fate points

{Note that Fawn could view but not unlock twist three tier four,
although she has many fate points.}

So, by expanding the math:

Unlock Twist four tier one: 4 fate point
Unlock Twist four tier two: 5 fate points
Unlock Twist four tier three: 6 fate points
Unlock Twist four tier four: 7 fate points

Unlock Twist fivr tier one: 5 fate point
Unlock Twist five tier two: 6 fate points
Unlock Twist fire tier three: 7 fate points
Unlock Twist five tier four: 8 fate points

I hope people can see where my extra fate points from the epic destines are going to
be very quickly spent.


If we allowed each epic destiny to become bounded after being reset once,
then one could gain up to 36 fate points without using the DDO Store.

How far will 36 fate points go?

Twist one tier four costs 10 fate points
Twist two tier four costs 14 fate points
Twist three tier three costs 12 fate points

And its already all spent...

If you unlock a fourth twist tier one, then I have to drop Twist three down to tier two.
Granting 4/4/2/1

Massive amounts of fate points will go very quickly with the escalating twist math.

Can you see why I don't object to large gains in fate points?


Also, a point not brought up, she is one xp point away from level 6 on every epic destiny.
This is major thing to throw away. I suspect she is not the only one.

Also, why give us Epic TRing now when the Epic destinies need to have the next 5 levels added to them?That seems to be WAI. Even if they were to add more twist slots, I don't see a lot on new fate points being added as it seems more likely that those would be for more low tier twists than high tier.

Also, what makes you think there will ever be more than 5 levels/destiny. While I could possibly see them adding a 6th with nothing else added if they felt a few more fate points were needed (because of added slots maybe), I don't really see anything added above the current epic moments.

[Silverleafeon]

Would you consider opening up level 6 on the epic destinies?

Even Madfloyd was sympathic that some earned all but 1 xp for gaining the next level.
That is 11 more epic destiny levels.

I am not sure how many fate points would be.

[Silverleafeon]

That seems to be WAI. Even if they were to add more twist slots, I don't see a lot on new fate points being added as it seems more likely that those would be for more low tier twists than high tier. Yes, a fifth twist slot would be close to useless.

Also, what makes you think there will ever be more than 5 levels/destiny. While I could possibly see them adding a 6th with nothing else added if they felt a few more fate points were needed (because of added slots maybe), I don't really see anything added above the current epic moments.
Yes looking at the epic destinies themselves, they do seem complete in their own way.
A few more action points would be nice. Bringing in level 6 without changing content
could be done.

I'm just trying to imagine the future, and looking at min level on epic destinies,
and wondering where the level cap will end?

[Gremmlynn]

Would you consider opening up level 6 on the epic destinies?

Even Madfloyd was sympathic that some earned all but 1 xp for gaining the next level.
That is 11 more epic destiny levels.

I am not sure how many fate points would be.4 total if with all destinies capped, for 22 total/24 with +2 tome. Which would be just enough to unlock tier 1 of a hypothetical 4th slot beyond what we currently have available.

[Gremmlynn]

Yes, a fifth twist slot would be close to useless.I can find lots of uses for it myself. Even if that means settling for a lower tier 1st slot. So many nice tier 1 powers that stand on their own.

[Silverleafeon]

4 total if with all destinies capped, for 22 total/24 with +2 tome. Which would be just enough to unlock tier 1 of a hypothetical 4th slot beyond what we currently have available.


I can find lots of uses for it myself. Even if that means settling for a lower tier 1st slot. So many nice tier 1 powers that stand on their own.

Very true.
Players love the twists feature, expand it.

Sign me up for a half dozen twists.

[Silverleafeon]

I still think Epic Destinies will be:

Levels 1 thru 5 (min level 20)
Levels 6 thru 10 (min level 25)
Levels 11 thru 15 (min level 30)

[Silverleafeon]

...We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels,
There, did he say increasing epic destinies?

...and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points,
Sure would like to hear about fate points.

[Silverleafeon]

Nice Tier Five stuff:

Flyby attack ~ Draconic

Devastating critical ~ Legendary Dreadnought

Nulmagic Strike ~ Magistar

Chil of Winter ~ Primal Avatar

Nerve Venom ~ Shiradi

Ward against evil ~ nyielding Sentinel


Evasion from tier six of Primal Avatar is uber
(conditions apply)

There as so many good less twists...

[SSFWEl]

This is a bit over the top. Play other MMOs. A weekend grind is quite easy compared to most other MMOs.





2. Honestly, I'm a bit confused about Epic TRing. Perhaps I need more coffee. But, I have no problem with an optional separate TR system that makes you reset EDs. It takes a weekend to max out EDs, and it's sort of the problem I have with endgame.

you must be one of those whom can solo von 5...

Lets see:
21mil xp to cap all destinies.
Say you are getting 25k XP every 3 min from the house. (I am being generous).
So you need to do that about 871 times.
Times 3 min = 43 hours non-stop.

Hmm so technicaly, yes, you can do it in a weekend.

Easy.

[Deadlock]

Would you consider opening up level 6 on the epic destinies?

Even Madfloyd was sympathic that some earned all but 1 xp for gaining the next level.
That is 11 more epic destiny levels.

I am not sure how many fate points would be.

Or maybe just renumber them from 1 to 6 the way they should have been in the first place?

Our number systems have always started at 1, it was a bit of a surprise to me when ED's came along with a starting value of 0. Start them at 1 which does mean that someone gets 1 Fate Point right away, so when they get their first destiny to level 4 (the old level 3) where they can switch to another ED in the same sphere, they will actually have 2 Fate Points and only need to gain rank 2 in their newly active ED to have the option of either a Tier 2 Twist Slot, or two Tier 1 Twist Slots.

Having that "extra bit that does nothing" from 1,500,000 to 1,980,000 just to have it capped to Epic TR and bond it isn't a bad idea, now that it's an actual cap to bond it give is a purpose where there wasn't one before.

[DDOForumAccount]

Short term: Oh, gaining epic exp is useless now, why bother with epic content at all? LFM for 20+ was already dry, I suppose it will be dwindling to nothingness soon.

After this goes live: Oh, doing TR has such high cost, I just won't TR. A week later: Oh, I've now done all epic content once, would be nice to do some other quests to add variance. See short term. Ok, so what other games are there that I should play instead?

And previously I thought the destiny grind where you spend almost all of your time in the wrong/unfinished destinies was bad. In comparison to TR changes, it looks like a work of genius.

[Silverleafeon]

Hmm so technicaly, yes, you can do it in a weekend.

Easy.
Lol, not me...

[Deadlock]

11 Destinies bonded/Completionist: A Deity Amongst Mortals - Your understanding of the Universe has expanded to such a degree that you've nearly become a god. Passive feat - You gain +8 stacking boost to all ability scores and skills. Your Spellpower (if applicable) is increased by 200, your spell DC's are increased by 20, and your to-hit and weapon damage is increased by 20. Furthermore, all active destinies have their effects doubled (example - The ability score boosts in Sentinel would now grant +2 per tier instead of +1, Adrenaline Overload grants an 800% damage boost instead of 400%). This feat becomes inactive when more destinies are added.

Nah, this is way over the top. Between this and the others you list, you're basically talking about someone ending up with equivalent power to a Shear-cheat but by some legitimate means.

[karl_k0ch]

I'm chiming in: The system described in the OP seems to punish people who have toons with more than one capped destiny. I don't like the idea of losing my ED XP, and I'm going to settle for the option "Not TRing at all" with these toons, as it currently looks like.

[Silverleafeon]

Or maybe just renumber them from 1 to 6 the way they should have been in the first place?

Our number systems have always started at 1, it was a bit of a surprise to me when ED's came along with a starting value of 0.
Ok

[Silverleafeon]

Nah, this is way over the top. Between this and the others you list, you're basically talking about someone ending up with equivalent power to a Shear-cheat but by some legitimate means.
The same people who started posting Epic Elite is too easy.

[Deadlock]

Still, I agree that Iconics will greatly trivialize the journey to completionist (and to the point of cheapening it entirely; especially when you consider those who achieved completionist the hard way going from 1-20+ each time).

That's why you only get to TR into an Iconic as at Epic TR option at 28, instead of a Heroic TR option at 20.

Also, from what I've read, Iconic Past Lives are not the same as Class Past lives and don't count towards Completionist.

At the moment we have Heroic Completionist and with the new Epic TR they are adding Epic Completionist. I can't see any real need to also add Iconic Completionist when we only have 4 Iconics, but maybe it's something to think about.

[Yalinaa]

As mentioned before, heroic levels are separated from epic levels, so why just keep them that way?
The answer is obvious - they don't like players doing low level (Eberron) stuff, they don't like us doing (heroic) TRs instead of playing their latest (epic level) contents and expansions. Honestly, who would do a heroic TR with a loss of 20 million xp anymore? To give more power who wanna do this is just a painful joke, 'cause every hero/legend character with cannith crafted gear, ship buffs, unlimited potions (even silver flame ones) etc. are just in a GOD mode already on low level (1-12), why would we need more power, when we already have more, than enough?

I like to do TR, because a lot of the old quests are fun to play for me, and I see so many guys on hero/legend characters these days, it's really "booming" now. I guess Turbine recognized this as well, and wanna stop people to play "old" content. It's just a shame... I respect(ed) the devs to this point, but if they really wanna do to assist for killing the old content, that would be the last nail in the coffin for me, and I would just find another game to play. This game means a lot for me (on emotional levels) as a player, and if the devs can't feel the same way, nothing to keep me here.

[Silverleafeon]

My first reading screams EPIC FAIL, on a level of "shut down the servers and turn off the lights, the game is over."

Possible ways this could be salvaged:

1) As mentioned a few times, you lose all destiny xp (except bonded destinies) but retain all fate points, and any new destiny grinding adds more fate points to that total. This wouldn't just be a save, it would be a total win. None of the current destiny xp people have spent so many hours grinding (almost purely for the fate points) would be wasted in such a system.

2) Plans are scrapped for heroic tr, leaving it the same as it is now. Do a heroic tr and you don't lose any destiny xp and you also don't get any epic advantage or epic past life.

3) When the change is first rolled out to live, all capped destinies on existing character get a special "semi-bonded" flag. Semi-bonded destinies do not get lost on tr, but since they aren't fully bonded you don't get epic past lives for them. You have to actually bond them to get that.

4) This possibility would be both the most and least painful option: You lose all destiny xp on any TR, just like Glin says in the OP, but going forward you can put your epic xp to any unlocked destiny while keeping your preferred destiny active. This would be the most painful in that you'd have to regrind all the destiny xp you already ground out, but it would be the least painful because you could finally be having fun playing your real character while grinding out destinies.

Any of these 4 solutions would fix the EPIC FAIL I see in the OP, and I honestly don't know which one I'd prefer. I think 2) is my least favorite, and though it would be a grievous injury to lose all my destiny xp on all my alts I think 4) would be my favorite. But 1) looks really, really nice too. 3) is kludgy but probably the most fair way to handle it.

+1

[Da_Most_Shady]

You know when I checked dev tracker today and saw Epic TR, I was a bit excited to hear about what is coming. That was until I read what was planned. I have completionist with max ed and there is no way I am going to grind out 21 million xp again to get the epic completionist.

So I thought. Why the heck are they trying to make us earn back all that xp to do an epic tr. Then it hit me. I will admit I was a bit slow to see it because I was not too happy about the news. But now I realize they are doing it like this so they can sell Epic Destiny stones. Just another feature asked for by players turned into a cash grab. I guess this is the new endgame for turbine/WB or whoever is in charge. But if that goes through as is, I am afraid this game will be shut down. I mean 21 million xp is alot to do over.

[Deadlock]

A point that I haven't seen yet...

My TR junkie toon is going for completionist. Okay, so you're counting Iconics in the completionist feat as well. I now have to do at least 17 lives. If I buy into this system, even though I've done 4 lives already (I started as an altoholic), That's at least 2 lives that I'll have every destiny bonded.

I wanted completionist because it seemed like a fun way to learn and play each class.


I have no desire to learn a class I've never played starting from level 12+.



Interesting point. The problem with making it an option is that you'll inevitably have people crying foul that they accidentally chose the wrong option because Turbine failed to make it clear enough for them. Maybe when you Heroic TR or Epic TR as well as having to type in your character name you either have to type in "I want to start at rank 1" or "I want to start with advantage"? gives people the choice that way.

[Silverleafeon]

Also, from what I've read, Iconic Past Lives are not the same as Class Past lives and don't count towards Completionist.

At the moment we have Heroic Completionist and with the new Epic TR they are adding Epic Completionist. I can't see any real need to also add Iconic Completionist when we only have 4 Iconics, but maybe it's something to think about.
Aye need about eight or so before we toss it in, but hey might as well plan ahead.

[Silverleafeon]

Interesting point. The problem with making it an option is that you'll inevitably have people crying foul that they accidentally chose the wrong option because Turbine failed to make it clear enough for them. Maybe when you Heroic TR or Epic TR as well as having to type in your character name you either have to type in "I want to start at rank 1" or "I want to start with advantage"? gives people the choice that way.
Honestly I found TRing into korthos to be a stress breaker if I did not like epics.
Eventually they changed epics granting normal/hard/elite options which helped.

[Silverleafeon]

Can we have some practical examples please?

So for example I currently have a character that has 3 ranger past lives, a wiz PL, a sorc PL, and I was going to make an artificer but I've deicided I'll be an moncher for a while. So while I was on my last sorc life I grinded out all the arcane EDs but I started in Shiradi as that was where my last ranger past life left me. So now I'm on a monk mix I'm slowly leveling and maxing out my melee EDs. I have a 4,1 twist point setting at the moment.

With this system right now if I did deciced yep I want to finish off a couple more sorc lives and then go on my final artificer life, I would have to just dump all my ED experience pretty much except one tree (I have 4 totally capped out and 2 mostly capped out ones to choose from). What happens to my twists? Do they stay there? Say I keep the shiradi tree, then go to my sorc life, which tree can I then start in when I reach 20 again? only the trees next to shiradi or one of the arcane trees?

Aye, even with a lot of reading this is a complex subject.
When I first saw it, I was floored.

Several practical examples would be nice.

But before you do that, change your mind on some of this please.

[Silverleafeon]

I would have liked that 35 lives ago.

If you make it easier can I have free extra lives based on the difference between old and new amount of experience required to cap a TR? Cause, you know, you'd be invalidating millions worth of acquired exp.Lol, sign me up too..


Turbine decided to separate Heroic Levels from Epic Levels/Epic Destinies, it makes sense that the TR system should separate Heroic TR and Epic/ED TR.

Doing an Heroic TR should not affect Epic Destinies.
Nods solemnly...

[Dreppo]

That's kind of the point of completionist, isn't it? to accumulate all the past life feats... Seems logical.

Not precisely, no. Up until now it has only been about classes. I've pasted the feat description below from the wiki (capitalized words are mine for emphasis). So I would not guess that Completionist will require the iconic past life feats, nor the epic destiny past life feats, until we hear some statement to that effect.

Completionist
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: All passive Past Life Feats of all current CLASSES

Description

You win DDO! You've leveled to 20 in every CLASS, and for your effort you can take this feat to get a +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores. When more CLASSES are added, this feat will deactivate and you will need to gain those past lives before this benefit reactivates.

[Deadlock]

I will ask you to notice that I also posted that each Epic TR (once per destiny) should add 1 point of fate.

This idea I like. It's a nice extra reward in addition to the ED Past Life Feat for giving up their ED XP in their unbonded destinies.

Ignoring buying a tome of fate from the store, at the moment, the maximum number of Fate points you can get is from 55 levels which equates to 18 Fate Points at level:
4 (1+2+3+4 = 10)
2 (2+3 = 5)
1 (3)

If we just renumber the Destiny Levels to start at 1, we would have 66 Levels which equates to 22 Fate Points to give us:
4 (1+2+3+4 = 10)
3 (2+3+4 = 9)
1 (3)

-or-

4 (1+2+3+4 = 10)
2 (2+3 = 5)
2 (3+4 = 7)

If we added to this a further 11 Fate points from ED Past Life Feats plus an extra Fate point from Epic Completionist Feat this would be 34 Fate Points, with the option to buy a +2 Tome of Fate from the store this gives us a new total of 36 Points:
4 (1+2+3+4 = 10)
4 (2+3+4+5 = 14)
3 (3+4+5 = 12)

At the moment, I'm sitting with 4/2/1 so have no reason to buy a Tome from the Store, if it was changed to this, then it would maybe give me a reason to.

With an increased number of Fate points like this, it might even be worth considering adding a 4th Twist Slot.

[Silverleafeon]

Thanks for all this info. It's much to digest.Indeed.

I was talking it over with a guildie, and one concern is that as the XP curve is revisited, and it will be easier to TR (Heroic)--it will sort of feel like a kick in the chops to those completionists and multiple TR folks who spent the greater part of a few years doing such.
Personally, Ill be glad if a legend life is easier to do.
I'll smile to see more friends happier.


It's progress and "moving forward", but it may be prudent to give at least a symbolic reward to those vets and founders whom ground-out the XP and TR'd before this new change takes effect. No, I'm not discounting the boost to VIP XP, the Founder's Helm, Boots, and I do appreciate the exclusive forum avatars.

Maybe an automatic XP boost if an epic TR is done, or a free "Been Through Death and Back" feat for those who TR'd prior to the change X many times, or those who are current completionists.

In this way, you then bring new people into a robust system of character development, and you satisfy some of the concerns of those who have been around for years (or the start of it all) by rewarding them with something that is not necessarily game breaking.
If they toss me a bone, I'll take it, but I'm much more concern about being pinned into a corner.

I see myself doing the Epic TRs on my TR/completionist character. It might be cool to put him through the Iconic wringer a few times :).

My other characters may do one or two of these depending on the benefit of the epic past life feats.

All this of course depends on what the reality of it is...Aye, if the Epic Past Life feat are uber,
if heroic TRing and Iconic TRing don't slash ed xp, and if fate / unlocks are never lost...then maybe I listen...

[AlmGhandi]

Is it a coincidence that I have only just started to try farming epic destinies at all? Just got my first twist at the weekend.
I guess I might as well go and TR again... even if they change the passive past lives... I will get something out of it. Piling up the destinies now just seems like a waste.

[Wizza]

Details on the Epic Destiny Past Life feats please.

And keep fate points, so we don't have to level again Fury of the Wild on a caster or Magister on a Fighter. We will just need to level the destiny for the interested EDPL (epic destiny past life). So casters will most likely level only EDs for EDPL and for their twists in the final life and so will melee.

[Deadlock]

Now we getting close.

Wipe only active epic destiny, not all.

Drop me back to level 20, not 1.

Give me decent auto grant past life.

Deal.

At the moment, the XP to cap at 28 would be:


Level Total XP XP/Level Increase
21 300,000 300,000
22 750,000 450,000 150,000
23 1,350,000 600,000 150,000
24 2,100,000 750,000 150,000
25 3,000,000 900,000 150,000
26 4,050,000 1,050,000 150,000
27 5,250,000 1,200,000 150,000
28 6,600,000 1,350,000 150,000


I'm guessing that their smoothing of the Epic XP curve would be more like:


Level Total XP XP/Level Increase
21 300,000 300,000
22 675,000 375,000 75,000
23 1,125,000 450,000 75,000
24 1,650,000 525,000 75,000
25 2,250,000 600,000 75,000
26 2,925,000 675,000 75,000
27 3,675,000 750,000 75,000
28 4,500,000 825,000 75,000


Who knows, might even be less. But if they keep ED XP as it is, this still means you will automatically cap a new destiny at 1,980,000 somewhere in Level 24.

Now you can't compare Heroic XP quests to Epic XP quests in terms of the xp/min, so I don't see this as being difficult to achieve. Easily doable in a week.

Likewise, I see no need at all to change the Heroic XP requirements. When people are buying XP stones and doing a whole life in a weekend, and those of us who prefer not to cheat and bypass can do it in 34 hrs of quest time, there is no problem to solve here. Sure, it takes a casual player longer, but that's just the way it is. Rather than touching Heroic XP and the 1st, 2nd, 3rd+ life XP requirements, address the issue of crappy Heroic Quest XP instead so that people have a greater variety of quests to gain XP from in the first place. If there is a problem with the time it's taking people to get to 20, deal with the cause, not the effect.

Also, on the Epic TR dropping you to level 1+ranks (so level 12 with all ED's capped), wouldn't you be Epic TRing into an Iconic at level 15+ranks (so level 20 with all ED's capped)?

[Daemoneyes]

Ok, I think this could work IF ALL OF THE ITEMS BELOW were implemented:

- you grandfathered out all the old grinding by saying that any maxed out ED as of the day U20 hits is automatically bonded
- unbonded unlocked EDs stay unlocked, even if all the XP itself is lost
- fate points are not lost on TR or ETR

This a thousend times, everything else will make you loose biggest part of your costumers.

[Candela90]

Well honestly my idea for new TRs would be:
Heroic TR - like it is now - no loose of EDs or anything with them.
Epic TR - TR to lvl 20, loose of xp only in active ED - and thats why past life from the active ED.
20-28 is still a lot of XP.
And anything that makes you loose all EDs is just not fun...
And actually loosing all doesnt make sense. I mean - TR is getting rid of old life and starting new life. OK. But your "current life" is active ED I guess... not all EDs.

[EvilII]

A feasibel idea might be to bond and remove the xp from the (maxed) destiny that you have chosen at the point of Epic Reincarnation, *leaving all other destinies untouched *, then restarting at level 20 with the Epic Past Life feat from you chosen .

This could fairly well balanced to would make it wothwile for characters with multiple maxed destinies to reincarnate, while still not making it completely trivial to attain past life feats and keeping some of the replayability value of epic levels.

Another option could be to wipe all epic xp, but to leave all fate Points from previous lives intact, *and allow new epic XP to build further fate points* (making it possible to eventually have multiple 6th level twists). However, I dislike this idea due to the extreme level of grind it would imply to get even one, let alone several, Epic Past Life feats given that you would have to re-level not only your main destiny but also all the ones you want to get Twists of fate from.

[Candela90]

A feasibel idea might be to bond and remove the xp from the (maxed) destiny that you have chosen at the point of Epic Reincarnation, *leaving all other destinies untouched *, then restarting at level 20 with the Epic Past Life feat from you chosen .

This could fairly well balanced to would make it wothwile for characters with multiple maxed destinies to reincarnate, while still not making it completely trivial to attain past life feats and keeping some of the replayability value of epic levels.

This.

[Arlathen]

@OP/Devs

Not a fan, sorry.

I'm not a serial TR player - I prefer to play Epic quests and run Raids at end game - I don't buy into the whole multiple TR "This is SRS Buzniss" game plan.

And this system is not selling it to me either.

- 38pts? Meh.
- Epic Destiny Past Life Feat? Meh if the Heroic ones are anything to go by.

Oh and the real kicker?

- LOSE ALL DESTINY XP!! (Except the one I 'lock in'?)
- ...And gain free Heroic Ranks ... on levels that are easy to steam-roll through on a TR anyway?!..

No thanks.

[ixusdnd]

I like some of the ideas as presented, But the loss of so much i.e. (11 eds worth of exp) that i will have to pay money for seems very unfair, and a good way to lose players.
I think that the devs need to put a bit more thought in to epic TRs.
This as presented seems fine for the casual player, but a kick in the teeth for long time players.
add to the fact that it will cost 10-15$ to tr (this is a guess based on current prices).
With no in game way to get epic hearts of wood


To me this seems like a failed thought process.

[Citzen_Gkar]

Well after catching up again in this thread I have three possible pictures of what today's ETR/TR team meeting looks like:

What I hope:
Dev 1: Did you see that near universally negative feedback? Wow, people are upset and are making some good points
Dev 2: Yeah, I think maybe we missed the mark on a few key points and should look some fundamental changes before we implement this
Team Leader: Alright, let's watch the thread for a couple days, get interactive with the customers, and see what would be a better twist on our plan and make it happen!

What I expect:
Dev 1: Did you see that near universally negative feedback? Wow, people are upset and are making some good points
Dev 2: It's just the forums, they don't mean anything. Besides, two or three people liked the idea
Team Leader: I agree, we know the game better than the players, I'm sure they will come to love this

What I fear reality is:
Dev 1: Did you see that near universally negative feedback? Wow, people are upset and are making some good points
Dev 2: Yeah, I think maybe we missed the mark on a few key points and should look some fundamental changes before we implement this
Team Leader: Yeah, I know. But we don't have the time and resources to code such major changes without delaying update 20 and you know management will throw a fit if we do that.
Dev 1: So we do the same as the enhancement pass and just make little tiny changes and pretend we listened while still dumping the same steaming pile of dung on them?
Team Leader: You got it!

[Skavenaps]

Seems that im near the only thats ok with that system.

To max the 11 ED you just need to spend 1 weekend on rusted blades. Yeah.. big lose. I want my 2 days back ¬¬'

So i cant understand why peeps are so upset. The actually ED farm its a JOKE in the better case, at least the heroic TR its fun. Spent 2 days on the dungeon? No really.

Im happy that finally gain a ED take a bit of work instead of faceroll the same 1 min dungeon again and again.

The only downside, is that situacion was generated by Turbine allowing that ED stupid farm. And now, when they try to fix it.. it generate some backlash.

[Citzen_Gkar]

To max the 11 ED you just need to spend 1 weekend on rusted blades. Yeah.. big lose. I want my 2 days back ¬¬'

You are an exception, not the norm. Both because most players don't have the full weekends without other responsibilities and activities to do what you are suggesting, and because most players simply won't grind the same quest endlessly for 2 full days.

Maybe if you made the game fun, instead of treating it like work, you would see why people are upset.

[Vyder]

If I am a Fighter20 and TR, I lose all that FIGHTER XP, and get a Fighter past life, but I don't lose anything Wizard-related at all. If they want to have ED TRing, you should lose only the ONE ED you are TRing, not unrelated ones.


This^is all we need. I already canceled two subs after the so called expansion went on sale. I was going to at least buy the expansion and some packs with the turbine points I have acquired through the years but after reading about the initial design of epic TR I can say if that goes live that will be it for me.

[Dendrix]

Epic Advantage


With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)


This is a terrible terrible idea. The current True Reincarnation system means that there are lots of existing players who are playing at low levels as their reincarnates. This provides a pool of people who can group with new players.

I always thought the TR system was an awesome way of keeping the low level game alive and the low level game draws in new players

Here is how to do it in a player and game friendly way:
The Epic Advantage should be a "Stone if Epic Advantage" type thing. It should have a number of charges equal to my Epic Destiny ranks when I TR. I can use the stone to take a Heroic Rank whenever I like. If I want to use it at level 1, then great, if I want to save it up to use at level 16 to power me up to 20 then let me.

Upon TRing any existing Stone of Epic Advantage in my inventory/cache/bank should be destroyed before the new one is granted. (or get Kruz to check and make sure I don't have one).

[canisll]

I think with this System you're going to get balancing Problems...
11 PLs for EDs, and what 4 PLs for iconics, each stackable 3 times. That adds up...
It's already enough as it is.

I'd rather you adapt heroic XP Progression and Epic XP Progression, add new EDs over time and allow TRing out of and into Iconics.
Leave it at that, imo.
Maybe add new difficulties to test ones mettle (True Elite on Heroic Levels and True Epic on Epic Levels) and new quests.

It's just raising the cap to 28 will be enough to make endgame range really narrow at the Moment.
Add the power of PLs and stuff...

[Skavenaps]

You are an exception, not the norm. Both because most players don't have the full weekends without other responsibilities and activities to do what you are suggesting, and because most players simply won't grind the same quest endlessly for 2 full days.

Maybe if you made the game fun, instead of treating it like work, you would see why people are upset.

im pretty sure im the "normal" on the forum with that high lvl of elitism of it. Maybe who dont overfarm the dungeons and dont visit the forum its the "normal" part of the game.

But as i dont have the numbers and also you dont, its pointless to argue about that.

[Dendrix]

Iconic True Reincarnation


I am currently a heroic completionist and I have the Completionist feat.
My question is this; How do Iconic TR's affect my Completionist feat?

Do I have to do lives as each Iconic to reacqurie this feat?
Are they completly independent of Completionist?

[Gremmlynn]

I would have liked that 35 lives ago.

If you make it easier can I have free extra lives based on the difference between old and new amount of experience required to cap a TR? Cause, you know, you'd be invalidating millions worth of acquired exp.Smoothing the curve doesn't read to me that they are reducing the xp requirement. Just moving it around a bit. Likely making it a bit less back loaded so the needed xp falls more into the levels where enough content to get it is.

[Dendrix]

(Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)


This is the problem. Introducing this a year after the existing system is in place, removing all the stuff I have gained.

Here's a suggestion to mitigate that:
upon the release of U20 I get to choose one existing destiney in each completed sphere and bond that destiny.
(by completed sphere I mean all destinies in that sphere have to be at 24 points).

For current Epic Completionists that means I mark 4 as completed, and a 5th when I TR again (once I reach 28). Which is slightly less than half of the destinies (5 out of 11), but I'm not losing everything.

[Ykt]

To max the 11 ED you just need to spend 1 weekend on rusted blades. Yeah.. big lose. I want my 2 days back ¬¬'

So i cant understand why peeps are so upset.

about 20 million XP for capping all EDs
about 2 mins per Rusted Blades run
about 20k XP per run

20 million / 20k * 2 = 2000 mins = 33 hours

33 hours of rusted blades? no thanks

[redspecter23]

I think something else that hasn't really been touched on is the fact that there is no natural stopping point for EDTR. Compare to heroic TR. Say I put in 5 lives in a row, but then want to remain capped for a while. Currently, I do that, gain some epic destiny xp and run some endgame content with my guildies. Nothing is "wasted". I don't lose anything.

Now under the new proposed system once I do my first EDTR (and lose all but one destiny), then cap, I have a decision to make. I can stay at cap, newly underpowered and regrind some destinies only to have the excess xp essentially wiped away upon my next EDTR (this impending xp loss will always be nagging away at me in the back of my mind) or flip over right away. The new system encourages me to reflip my character right away and stay at it until I'm finally "done" and have all my twists back. Basically, once you start down the EDTR path you don't have any natural stopping points to take a break from that grind. You can stop of course, but you also know that the effort you put in at that stop will all be taken away later.

This is a "feel bad" feeling and should be avoided by game designers whenever possible. Give me "feel good" feelings about your system, possibly while accomplishing the same goals on the design end. Don't make me feel like I "have" to do something or have my time wasted.

[Ykt]

• True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life.

Then reverse the change made to Tomes of Ability so we lose used +4 and +5 Tomes on TR. :)

[Loromir]

I'm sorry but I don't understand your point and I don't want to wrongly flame you.

But what about this system is good?

Losing ED XP on a heroic TR is not acceptable under any circumstance. I'll simply never TR anything again.

I agree that it really sucks for folks who have already maxed out the destinies. It's a tough pill to swallow after so much time has already been put into destinies over the past year.

I am and have been a Turbine appologist for a long time, and I don't see that changing. However, Turbine missed the boat by not rolling this out at when we first were exposed to destinies.

I think that in reailty, the proposed upgrade to TR'ng is pretty good. I would however allow players to keep all destiny progress when the either heroic TR or Iconic TR. But what really sucks is that they are going to roll this out a year or more after detinies were introduced. In my opinion, its just too big of a penalty on the playesrs who have already invested so much into their destinies so far.

If they had rolled this system out last July, I am sure that no one would have complained at all.

It's not a bad system, but is seems will be poorly implemented and poorly timed.

[Loromir]

then reverse the change made to tomes of ability so we lose used +4 and +5 tomes on tr. :)

shhhh!!!!

[Fixil]

I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.


We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:



Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


How does this system look in practice?

Heroic True Reincarnation



Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


Epic Destiny True Reincarnation



Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat

Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny


Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


Epic Advantage


With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

Iconic True Reincarnation

That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)



Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
Earns ranks from Epic Advantage


What else?

Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:



Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.


Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.

I like the sound of these plans and goals, keep up the good work.

As a side note to all the winjers - keep your bad news and whining to yourself, if you don't have any specific feedback contributions to submit that earnestly
seeks to give a mature opinion on these changes then please refrain from posting. Your constantly negative and whimisal comments are supressive.

[Carpone]

The entire ED TR "feature" reads like somebody tried to answer, "How do we penalize the players who already capped their ED XP by running Rusted Blades or Death Undone before we nerfed speed completions?"

The ED feats gained through Epic TR will have to be amazing to justify the loss of 20mil XP. And we all know they'll be mediocre at best, assuming they even work as described. Turbine's track record isn't great in the fixing non-functional feats department. I'm looking at you Combat Archery.

The 2 build points (for a 38 point build) aren't enough of a carrot when I can already create a character with 18/18/12 stats.

If this goes live as described, I won't do another TR again. Even after completing 30 TRs, I've got plenty of lives left that I could do but won't.

[unacceptable]

Thank you for sharing your vision and soliciting feedback.

Overall I like the system, it's a big improvement over the current system. I think more should be done for people that maxed out many destinies although that doesn't impact me. People hate losing progress and that is the only flaw i see with your plan.

Reducing the XP grind will be a good thing. I always thought reducing the xp requirement and removing bravery bonus made sense to encourage grouping. The other officiel topic thread has alot of comments about the guild system. i hope something will be done prior to U20 with regards to decay.

Thanks again.

[Carpone]

about 20 million XP for capping all EDs
about 2 mins per Rusted Blades run
about 20k XP per run

20 million / 20k * 2 = 2000 mins = 33 hours

33 hours of rusted blades? no thanks
Grinding Rusted Blades for ED XP won't be an option when the level cap is 28. I wouldn't hold my breath for a Rusted Blades equivalent quest being released in Shadowfell or beyond.

[Hokiewa]

I like the sound of these plans and goals, keep up the good work.

As a side note to all the winjers - keep your bad news and whining to yourself, if you don't have any specific feedback contributions to submit that earnestly
seeks to give a mature opinion on these changes then please refrain from posting. Your constantly negative and whimisal comments are supressive.

Clearly you have not read this thread and obviously do not understand what supressive means.

It's amazing that Turbine is basically saying "the most obvious thing every player with EDs still to max out should do is STOP PLAYING UNTIL U20.....because if you wish to epic TR, you will have wasted a year playing that toon".

It will be a year, don't kid yourself. It will take 6 months to fix the enhancements once they go live.

[Qaliya]

Everyone always complains that we don't get enough communication from the devs. Reading some of the (over-)reactions in this thread is enough to suggest at least some of why this doesn't happen all that often.

I think the new changes have the potential to be very cool. I say we give the devs feedback about what we like and dislike, and have at least a little faith in them to create a good system, rather than immediately assuming that they want to nerf things or make TRing worse or cheat us out of XP or whatever.

[Satyriasys]

I like the idea overall. Depending on the impact of...



Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind

Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.


My initial feedback would be to allow 1 Karmic Bonded Destiny to remain active while earning XP toward other Destinies.

and my pet peeve is the ghost lfms

[Redtalktree]

Yippy scippy,
MY 1 year VIP sub is up around early October.. Guess that it then, so long and ty for the fish.
I have always wanted to say thank you for the cleric neff, enhancement pass and finally the TR/ETR "fun".

[Coyopa]

I like the sound of these plans and goals, keep up the good work.

As a side note to all the winjers - keep your bad news and whining to yourself, if you don't have any specific feedback contributions to submit that earnestly
seeks to give a mature opinion on these changes then please refrain from posting. Your constantly negative and whimisal comments are supressive.

You're a Scientologist, aren't you? (This is a reference to the use of the word "suppressive" and is supposed to be a joke.)

[Teh_Troll]

As a side note to all the winjers - keep your bad news and whining to yourself, if you don't have any specific feedback contributions to submit that earnestly
seeks to give a mature opinion on these changes then please refrain from posting. Your constantly negative and whimisal comments are supressive.

No, because we're right and you're wrong. If you support these proposed changes you either don't understand them or you are trolling.

This will kill the game and we don't want it killed. d000m!!!! is the only thing that will save DDO.

[NytCrawlr]

I was taking an extended leave from the game, but keeping in touch to see how things were going to pan out.

I know it is early yet on some things, but I guess that leave could be permanent since I have no desire to redo the ED grind on my main if I ever TR her, and I did want to TR her.

Oh well, makes more room for Neverwinter, Wildstar, and other games.


Let me know when DDO 2 comes out.

[Teh_Troll]

Yippy scippy,
MY 1 year VIP sub is up around early October.. Guess that it then, so long and ty for the fish.
I have always wanted to say thank you for the cleric neff, enhancement pass and finally the TR/ETR "fun".

Yeah, I'm kinda in the same boat with my VIP sub up in about 2 weeks. Thinking a 3 month renewal is about right as I don't believe this game will be around in a year.

Also extremely glad I didn't pre-order this "expansion."

[Coyopa]

Everyone always complains that we don't get enough communication from the devs. Reading some of the (over-)reactions in this thread is enough to suggest at least some of why this doesn't happen all that often.

I think the new changes have the potential to be very cool. I say we give the devs feedback about what we like and dislike, and have at least a little faith in them to create a good system, rather than immediately assuming that they want to nerf things or make TRing worse or cheat us out of XP or whatever.

No one is assuming anything. The devs came right out and said that this is their plan. And, yes, *some* of the changes do have potential. The problem is that the loss of 20+ million epic destiny exp is such a massive downside to their plans that it overwhelms everything else about their plans.

To be honest, I haven't really seen any over-reactions to the loss of 20+ million exp. Unlike some of the basement-dwellers here, I did not (cannot, and would not) spend (lose?) an entire weekend grinding one quest until I completed my epic destinies (whether that is considered actually capping them all or doing what I did, which is to do just enough to get the twists I want). As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have three characters who are "done" with their epic destinies: a monk with 4/1/1 twists, a druid and rogue with 4/2/1 twists. While I did run Rusted Blades on these characters (and have admitted such in the past), I did it little by little and often solo, turning the quest in each time. It was still boring, but it was more fun than running it in a group and it turned out to be quite good for my guild renown. Once I ransacked the reward list, then I would stop running it on that character for a while. Typically, I only had time to run it to ransack once every three weeks on each character as I simply do not have time to run it to ransack on each of three characters weekly. So, I did it in rotation (and now that those three characters are done, I have not done it on any other character since because I just cannot stand it anymore).

So, no, I have not over-reacted to the potential loss of over 20 million exp on each of three characters. If they go ahead with this plan, I will just leave the game. I left EverQuest with a 67 druid, 65 cleric, 56 monk, 51 bard, and multiple other lower level characters back when the cap was level 80 because I decided the grind to get there (and do all the Alternative Advancement ****) was too much. The grind here is considerably (even dramatically) less than that, but grinding is not fun and I avoid it as much as possible. Of course, "grind" is a subjective assessment because there may be people who find things fun that I find a grind. I know this is true for me - I am having fun running Tide Turns and Bargain of Blood over and over again for another seal and shard of the midnight greetings (collecting lots of loot, other seals and shards, and token fragments along the way), while many others would find it a grind.

[noinfo]

Get rid of the starting at level 1 for Epic TR. If you want to play the 1-20 game leave it for the normal TR's.

Epic start at 20, and reset the xp of only the sphere you want to improve. ie if you want to improve Primal then all Primal ED's are set back to 0 and you gain a bonus in that area. Grinding back out all Spheres just to be able to access the ones you want and max fate points again is just the sort of pain to make people rage quit. Give some control over the areas that people want to improve one step at a time.

[Urgforum]

Losing ED exp upon TR would have been fine if it had been that way from the start. But throwing it in now, after it has been an explicit design feature for EDs to persist through TRs for months and months, is a terrible idea.

I add my voice to the suggestion earlier of leave heroic TR separate from ED TR. If I want to reset my heroic levels, leave my ED levels alone.

I don't run one quest 300 times to zerg 21 million exp. I'm a fairly casual player who already has a job thank you very much, I don't need to feel like I'm doing tedious work when I'm playing a game. I've been exploring epic level play for a while on my first level 20+ character and just getting to the point where I want to try TRing for the first time. This announcement makes me want to just park that character until I know whether the outcry is going to have any effect. Would we at least be keeping the unlocks that we earned to access other destinies than the one we started in?

Is this "Epic Advantage" mandatory? Because maybe I want to skip the first few levels, but maybe I don't, depends on the class I'm leveling and how front- or back-loaded it is. Especially since I'm going to need to run all those level 2 quests anyway for Coin Lord backpack space.

[Teh_Troll]

Is this "Epic Advantage" mandatory? Because maybe I want to skip the first few levels, but maybe I don't, depends on the class I'm leveling and how front- or back-loaded it is. Especially since I'm going to need to run all those level 2 quests anyway for Coin Lord backpack space.

As it is now yes, it is.

[Silverleafeon]

Get rid of the starting at level 1 for Epic TR. If you want to play the 1-20 game leave it for the normal TR's.

Epic start at 20, and reset the xp of only the sphere you want to improve. ie if you want to improve Primal then all Primal ED's are set back to 0 and you gain a bonus in that area. Grinding back out all Spheres just to be able to access the ones you want and max fate points again is just the sort of pain to make people rage quit. Give some control over the areas that people want to improve one step at a time.

+1

I was going to suggest putting past live stuff in an enhancement tree.

But then I remembered all spell power comes from spend x points in this tree and gain y spell power,
therefore no one will want to spend any points outside of their caster type trees, making anything like
racial or past life stuff worthless because basic needs like spell power is gained in the wrong fashion.

Unless Beta has more common sense like offering spell power as a choice box.

[Silverleafeon]

Losing ED exp upon TR would have been fine if it had been that way from the start. But throwing it in now, after it has been an explicit design feature for EDs to persist through TRs for months and months, is a terrible idea.

I add my voice to the suggestion earlier of leave heroic TR separate from ED TR. If I want to reset my heroic levels, leave my ED levels alone.

I don't run one quest 300 times to zerg 21 million exp. I'm a fairly casual player who already has a job thank you very much, I don't need to feel like I'm doing tedious work when I'm playing a game. I've been exploring epic level play for a while on my first level 20+ character and just getting to the point where I want to try TRing for the first time. This announcement makes me want to just park that character until I know whether the outcry is going to have any effect. Would we at least be keeping the unlocks that we earned to access other destinies than the one we started in?

Is this "Epic Advantage" mandatory? Because maybe I want to skip the first few levels, but maybe I don't, depends on the class I'm leveling and how front- or back-loaded it is. Especially since I'm going to need to run all those level 2 quests anyway for Coin Lord backpack space.

+1

Separate heroic from epic.

Give us three epic TR choices, one with no reset of ed, one with only active reset of ed, one with total reset of ed.

And if we don't get more fate points, don't reset any ed.

[Silverleafeon]

No one is assuming anything. The devs came right out and said that this is their plan. And, yes, *some* of the changes do have potential. The problem is that the loss of 20+ million epic destiny exp is such a massive downside to their plans that it overwhelms everything else about their plans.

To be honest, I haven't really seen any over-reactions to the loss of 20+ million exp. Unlike some of the basement-dwellers here, I did not (cannot, and would not) spend (lose?) an entire weekend grinding one quest until I completed my epic destinies (whether that is considered actually capping them all or doing what I did, which is to do just enough to get the twists I want). As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have three characters who are "done" with their epic destinies: a monk with 4/1/1 twists, a druid and rogue with 4/2/1 twists. While I did run Rusted Blades on these characters (and have admitted such in the past), I did it little by little and often solo, turning the quest in each time. It was still boring, but it was more fun than running it in a group and it turned out to be quite good for my guild renown. Once I ransacked the reward list, then I would stop running it on that character for a while. Typically, I only had time to run it to ransack once every three weeks on each character as I simply do not have time to run it to ransack on each of three characters weekly. So, I did it in rotation (and now that those three characters are done, I have not done it on any other character since because I just cannot stand it anymore).

So, no, I have not over-reacted to the potential loss of over 20 million exp on each of three characters. If they go ahead with this plan, I will just leave the game. I left EverQuest with a 67 druid, 65 cleric, 56 monk, 51 bard, and multiple other lower level characters back when the cap was level 80 because I decided the grind to get there (and do all the Alternative Advancement ****) was too much. The grind here is considerably (even dramatically) less than that, but grinding is not fun and I avoid it as much as possible. Of course, "grind" is a subjective assessment because there may be people who find things fun that I find a grind. I know this is true for me - I am having fun running Tide Turns and Bargain of Blood over and over again for another seal and shard of the midnight greetings (collecting lots of loot, other seals and shards, and token fragments along the way), while many others would find it a grind.

+1 resetting ed is very serious

[darthhento]

If you're going to make us buy 4 RACES that have the same CLASSES as the existing classes that are required for Completionist you need your head examined.

[Silverleafeon]

I was taking an extended leave from the game, but keeping in touch to see how things were going to pan out.

I know it is early yet on some things, but I guess that leave could be permanent since I have no desire to redo the ED grind on my main if I ever TR her, and I did want to TR her.

Oh well, makes more room for Neverwinter, Wildstar, and other games.


Let me know when DDO 2 comes out.

Between the forums, the alpha enhancements and this, the Devs need to do some fancy footwork
and deep concessions SOONtm

[Silverleafeon]

If you're going to make us buy 4 RACES that have the same CLASSES as the existing classes that are required for Completionist you need your head examined.

+1

There should be multiple completionist feats now.
All should be auto granted.

[Darkrok]

Ok, now that I've slept on the announcement here is my cold reaction on it :

It's Too late for what you plan.

If you had given us Epic TR that way last year, it wouldn't have been a problem as everybody would have known the rules before developing any Epic destiny, and actually it would have been an interesting thing.

As things are, it's too late, lots of us have several capped destinies ( when not all ) and they are unwilling to loose that on their characters.
So you just killed the game for these characters, as they won't be TRed anymore.

This is further compounded by the fact that we were told several month ago that loosing Epic Destinies XP when doing an Heroic TR was not WAI.

Exactly. DDO has changed the rules too many times now. I tried to play last night and just couldn't find the motivation. I doubt I'll be in today for more than a few minutes. I've officially had enough. It's one thing to move the bar. It's another to change the rules. I don't have time for that...I'll find a different game that doesn't pull a bait and switch this often with their players.

[Teh_Troll]

Exactly. DDO has changed the rules too many times now. I tried to play last night and just couldn't find the motivation. I doubt I'll be in today for more than a few minutes. I've officially had enough. It's one thing to move the bar. It's another to change the rules. I don't have time for that...I'll find a different game that doesn't pull a bait and switch this often with their players.

They can't come up with enough good content that's compelling to play at end-game.

There solution is to destroy people's toons and make them start over.

[Silverleafeon]

No one is assuming anything. The devs came right out and said that this is their plan. And, yes, *some* of the changes do have potential. The problem is that the loss of 20+ million epic destiny exp is such a massive downside to their plans that it overwhelms everything else about their plans.

To be honest, I haven't really seen any over-reactions to the loss of 20+ million exp. Unlike some of the basement-dwellers here, I did not (cannot, and would not) spend (lose?) an entire weekend grinding one quest until I completed my epic destinies (whether that is considered actually capping them all or doing what I did, which is to do just enough to get the twists I want). As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have three characters who are "done" with their epic destinies: a monk with 4/1/1 twists, a druid and rogue with 4/2/1 twists. While I did run Rusted Blades on these characters (and have admitted such in the past), I did it little by little and often solo, turning the quest in each time. It was still boring, but it was more fun than running it in a group and it turned out to be quite good for my guild renown. Once I ransacked the reward list, then I would stop running it on that character for a while. Typically, I only had time to run it to ransack once every three weeks on each character as I simply do not have time to run it to ransack on each of three characters weekly. So, I did it in rotation (and now that those three characters are done, I have not done it on any other character since because I just cannot stand it anymore).

So, no, I have not over-reacted to the potential loss of over 20 million exp on each of three characters. If they go ahead with this plan, I will just leave the game. I left EverQuest with a 67 druid, 65 cleric, 56 monk, 51 bard, and multiple other lower level characters back when the cap was level 80 because I decided the grind to get there (and do all the Alternative Advancement ****) was too much. The grind here is considerably (even dramatically) less than that, but grinding is not fun and I avoid it as much as possible. Of course, "grind" is a subjective assessment because there may be people who find things fun that I find a grind. I know this is true for me - I am having fun running Tide Turns and Bargain of Blood over and over again for another seal and shard of the midnight greetings (collecting lots of loot, other seals and shards, and token fragments along the way), while many others would find it a grind.
+1

Get rid of the starting at level 1 for Epic TR. If you want to play the 1-20 game leave it for the normal TR's.

Epic start at 20, and reset the xp of only the sphere you want to improve. ie if you want to improve Primal then all Primal ED's are set back to 0 and you gain a bonus in that area. Grinding back out all Spheres just to be able to access the ones you want and max fate points again is just the sort of pain to make people rage quit. Give some control over the areas that people want to improve one step at a time.
+1

Losing ED exp upon TR would have been fine if it had been that way from the start. But throwing it in now, after it has been an explicit design feature for EDs to persist through TRs for months and months, is a terrible idea.

I add my voice to the suggestion earlier of leave heroic TR separate from ED TR. If I want to reset my heroic levels, leave my ED levels alone.

I don't run one quest 300 times to zerg 21 million exp. I'm a fairly casual player who already has a job thank you very much, I don't need to feel like I'm doing tedious work when I'm playing a game. I've been exploring epic level play for a while on my first level 20+ character and just getting to the point where I want to try TRing for the first time. This announcement makes me want to just park that character until I know whether the outcry is going to have any effect. Would we at least be keeping the unlocks that we earned to access other destinies than the one we started in?

Is this "Epic Advantage" mandatory? Because maybe I want to skip the first few levels, but maybe I don't, depends on the class I'm leveling and how front- or back-loaded it is. Especially since I'm going to need to run all those level 2 quests anyway for Coin Lord backpack space.
+1

[Silverleafeon]

Exactly. DDO has changed the rules too many times now. I tried to play last night and just couldn't find the motivation. I doubt I'll be in today for more than a few minutes. I've officially had enough. It's one thing to move the bar. It's another to change the rules. I don't have time for that...I'll find a different game that doesn't pull a bait and switch this often with their players.

They need to really think hard about all this.
They are about to seriously lose people.

[Silverleafeon]

Well honestly my idea for new TRs would be:
Heroic TR - like it is now - no loose of EDs or anything with them.
Epic TR - TR to lvl 20, loose of xp only in active ED - and thats why past life from the active ED.
20-28 is still a lot of XP.
And anything that makes you loose all EDs is just not fun...
And actually loosing all doesnt make sense. I mean - TR is getting rid of old life and starting new life. OK. But your "current life" is active ED I guess... not all EDs.
+1

A feasibel idea might be to bond and remove the xp from the (maxed) destiny that you have chosen at the point of Epic Reincarnation, *leaving all other destinies untouched *, then restarting at level 20 with the Epic Past Life feat from you chosen .

This could fairly well balanced to would make it wothwile for characters with multiple maxed destinies to reincarnate, while still not making it completely trivial to attain past life feats and keeping some of the replayability value of epic levels.

Another option could be to wipe all epic xp, but to leave all fate Points from previous lives intact, *and allow new epic XP to build further fate points* (making it possible to eventually have multiple 6th level twists). However, I dislike this idea due to the extreme level of grind it would imply to get even one, let alone several, Epic Past Life feats given that you would have to re-level not only your main destiny but also all the ones you want to get Twists of fate from.

+1

[Silverleafeon]

@OP/Devs

Not a fan, sorry.

I'm not a serial TR player - I prefer to play Epic quests and run Raids at end game - I don't buy into the whole multiple TR "This is SRS Buzniss" game plan.

And this system is not selling it to me either.

- 38pts? Meh.
- Epic Destiny Past Life Feat? Meh if the Heroic ones are anything to go by.

Oh and the real kicker?

- LOSE ALL DESTINY XP!! (Except the one I 'lock in'?)
- ...And gain free Heroic Ranks ... on levels that are easy to steam-roll through on a TR anyway?!..

No thanks.

+1

[Silverleafeon]

Details on the Epic Destiny Past Life feats please.

And keep fate points, so we don't have to level again Fury of the Wild on a caster or Magister on a Fighter. We will just need to level the destiny for the interested EDPL (epic destiny past life). So casters will most likely level only EDs for EDPL and for their twists in the final life and so will melee.

Aye, fate points and twists are everything outside of your current few favorite epic destinies.
But the grind could be awful.

I don't even like the bonded thing.

I would like to be able to choose to reset an epic destiny I want to multiple times,
and to be able to choose to not reset an epic destiny I don't want to reset.


I don't like that fact that epic xp keeps incrementally increasing.
I would prefer to see all epic levels cost XX points to gain.

[Silverleafeon]

A feasibel idea might be to bond and remove the xp from the (maxed) destiny that you have chosen at the point of Epic Reincarnation, *leaving all other destinies untouched *, then restarting at level 20 with the Epic Past Life feat from you chosen .

This could fairly well balanced to would make it wothwile for characters with multiple maxed destinies to reincarnate, while still not making it completely trivial to attain past life feats and keeping some of the replayability value of epic levels.

Another option could be to wipe all epic xp, but to leave all fate Points from previous lives intact, *and allow new epic XP to build further fate points* (making it possible to eventually have multiple 6th level twists). However, I dislike this idea due to the extreme level of grind it would imply to get even one, let alone several, Epic Past Life feats given that you would have to re-level not only your main destiny but also all the ones you want to get Twists of fate from.+1


Well honestly my idea for new TRs would be:
Heroic TR - like it is now - no loose of EDs or anything with them.
Epic TR - TR to lvl 20, loose of xp only in active ED - and thats why past life from the active ED.
20-28 is still a lot of XP.
And anything that makes you loose all EDs is just not fun...
And actually loosing all doesnt make sense. I mean - TR is getting rid of old life and starting new life. OK. But your "current life" is active ED I guess... not all EDs.+1


This a thousend times, everything else will make you loose biggest part of your costumers.

+1

[Darkrok]

Short term: Oh, gaining epic exp is useless now, why bother with epic content at all? LFM for 20+ was already dry, I suppose it will be dwindling to nothingness soon.

After this goes live: Oh, doing TR has such high cost, I just won't TR. A week later: Oh, I've now done all epic content once, would be nice to do some other quests to add variance. See short term. Ok, so what other games are there that I should play instead?

And previously I thought the destiny grind where you spend almost all of your time in the wrong/unfinished destinies was bad. In comparison to TR changes, it looks like a work of genius.

This is exactly how I feel.

Now, the gamer in me says, "ok...let me just finish all of my important past lives on my two toons I care about now, before this goes live". But you know what? No. Not going to play in to the dev's game here.

It's clear to me that DDO has taken the delicate balance of creating fun versus creating escalating time requirements to suck people in and slammed the scales over to the latter.

At this point the players are being set up. They let us know that the level cap is going up to level 28. What does that mean for us as players that are planning our next move logically? It means that the only smart thing to do is to grind out all your ED xp while the grinding is good. They haven't announced any level 25+ content so grinding ED's at level 28 would be...problematic. So anyone that's thinking things through immediately goes and grinds those ED's.

A month later? They announce that any actions taken to better your character will wipe 10/11th's of your Epic Destiny xp you've earned on a capped character. Oh goody! So I get penalized for thinking through what the changes you announced a month ago mean. Thanks!

So now the logical thing to do would be to TR as much as possible between now and October or whenever U10 hits. But who's to say that Turbine doesn't pull another bait and switch. They're planning to wipe ED xp? Why not plan to wipe heroic past lives when you epic TR? Makes as much sense! Great plan! Completionists all go back to square 1 but if they bond every past life they can start at level 11 or 12!!! See, that'll make grinding all those past lives you lose much easier. And there's something you can buy in the store for 6995tp's that'll let you bind 1 heroic past life each time you epic TR!

I slept on it. I took the time to think about it. I went from in shock last night to disgusted today. What Turbine has proven here is that they're going down the dark alley of psychological manipulation in the game. They're purposely changing the rules with the main goals being to create more grind that people want to do while simultaneously creating income by providing ways to reduce the grind. This announcement has taken me from someone that typically defended Turbine to one of the tinfoil hat wearers.

So my new plan. I will NOT quit playing. That would reward Turbine. I will become a F2P leach. I will spend nothing with Turbine. I will play as often as I feel like playing but purposely not improve my characters. I will lead no raids, I will organize no groups. I will simply play what I feel like playing, mostly when my kids are playing, and I'll run whatever difficulty I feel like running. Because I'm purposely not caring about progression. Turbine has made it clear that any progression you do on a character is subject to removal. Then to heck with progressing! I'll enjoy their game a lot more now that I'll be playing it on my terms, the 100's of dollars I've spent with them in the last year will go to $0 in the next year, and I'll probably log on a lot less now that the only reason I'll play is to play - not to spend hours in Rusted Blades, running flagging quests I don't like to run a raid I don't like to grind for one item - no, I'm done with Turbine's grind. This game is easy enough that none of that is necessary.

So I'm officially quitting...I'm quitting Turbine's game. I'm quitting as a paying customer. I'll see you all in-game while I'm playing my game. I'll be the relaxed gimp in decent gear having fun on Turbine's dime.

[Silverleafeon]

The entire ED TR "feature" reads like somebody tried to answer, "How do we penalize the players who already capped their ED XP by running Rusted Blades or Death Undone before we nerfed speed completions?"

The ED feats gained through Epic TR will have to be amazing to justify the loss of 20mil XP. And we all know they'll be mediocre at best, assuming they even work as described. Turbine's track record isn't great in the fixing non-functional feats department. I'm looking at you Combat Archery.

The 2 build points (for a 38 point build) aren't enough of a carrot when I can already create a character with 18/18/12 stats.

If this goes live as described, I won't do another TR again. Even after completing 30 TRs, I've got plenty of lives left that I could do but won't.+1


Thank you for sharing your vision and soliciting feedback.

Overall I like the system, it's a big improvement over the current system. I think more should be done for people that maxed out many destinies although that doesn't impact me. People hate losing progress and that is the only flaw i see with your plan.

Reducing the XP grind will be a good thing. I always thought reducing the xp requirement and removing bravery bonus made sense to encourage grouping. The other officiel topic thread has alot of comments about the guild system. i hope something will be done prior to U20 with regards to decay.

Thanks again.
+1

Grinding Rusted Blades for ED XP won't be an option when the level cap is 28. I wouldn't hold my breath for a Rusted Blades equivalent quest being released in Shadowfell or beyond.+1


Clearly you have not read this thread and obviously do not understand what supressive means.

It's amazing that Turbine is basically saying "the most obvious thing every player with EDs still to max out should do is STOP PLAYING UNTIL U20.....because if you wish to epic TR, you will have wasted a year playing that toon".

It will be a year, don't kid yourself. It will take 6 months to fix the enhancements once they go live.+1

[Silverleafeon]

This is exactly how I feel.

Now, the gamer in me says, "ok...let me just finish all of my important past lives on my two toons I care about now, before this goes live". But you know what? No. Not going to play in to the dev's game here.

It's clear to me that DDO has taken the delicate balance of creating fun versus creating escalating time requirements to suck people in and slammed the scales over to the latter.

At this point the players are being set up. They let us know that the level cap is going up to level 28. What does that mean for us as players that are planning our next move logically? It means that the only smart thing to do is to grind out all your ED xp while the grinding is good. They haven't announced any level 25+ content so grinding ED's at level 28 would be...problematic. So anyone that's thinking things through immediately goes and grinds those ED's.

A month later? They announce that any actions taken to better your character will wipe 10/11th's of your Epic Destiny xp you've earned on a capped character. Oh goody! So I get penalized for thinking through what the changes you announced a month ago mean. Thanks!

So now the logical thing to do would be to TR as much as possible between now and October or whenever U10 hits. But who's to say that Turbine doesn't pull another bait and switch. They're planning to wipe ED xp? Why not plan to wipe heroic past lives when you epic TR? Makes as much sense! Great plan! Completionists all go back to square 1 but if they bond every past life they can start at level 11 or 12!!! See, that'll make grinding all those past lives you lose much easier. And there's something you can buy in the store for 6995tp's that'll let you bind 1 heroic past life each time you epic TR!

I slept on it. I took the time to think about it. I went from in shock last night to disgusted today. What Turbine has proven here is that they're going down the dark alley of psychological manipulation in the game. They're purposely changing the rules with the main goals being to create more grind that people want to do while simultaneously creating income by providing ways to reduce the grind. This announcement has taken me from someone that typically defended Turbine to one of the tinfoil hat wearers.

So my new plan. I will NOT quit playing. That would reward Turbine. I will become a F2P leach. I will spend nothing with Turbine. I will play as often as I feel like playing but purposely not improve my characters. I will lead no raids, I will organize no groups. I will simply play what I feel like playing, mostly when my kids are playing, and I'll run whatever difficulty I feel like running. Because I'm purposely not caring about progression. Turbine has made it clear that any progression you do on a character is subject to removal. Then to heck with progressing! I'll enjoy their game a lot more now that I'll be playing it on my terms, the 100's of dollars I've spent with them in the last year will go to $0 in the next year, and I'll probably log on a lot less now that the only reason I'll play is to play - not to spend hours in Rusted Blades, running flagging quests I don't like to run a raid I don't like to grind for one item - no, I'm done with Turbine's grind. This game is easy enough that none of that is necessary.

So I'm officially quitting...I'm quitting Turbine's game. I'm quitting as a paying customer. I'll see you all in-game while I'm playing my game. I'll be the relaxed gimp in decent gear having fun on Turbine's dime.

+1

[silinteresting]

after thinking about this for awhile, ive come to the conclusion for me this could be really good.
for my levl 25 bard with max destinies, she was never gonna be tr'd anyway so unless there is
a huge boost to power from epic tr'ing she will not bother.

my other character i play a lot is my wizzy who is half way through her 3rd life, now for her ive
only gained a couple of fate points so maxing a destiny and discarding the rest im fine with.

the way im looking at this is wait and see what carrots will be dangled for epic tr'ing then and
only then can a judgement be made on wether it would be good for you and your toon or not.

in general tho lets be honest something had to be done to tr'ing and if this implemented well
then this could be really good.


just my thoughts
your friend sil :)

[Ellxpeth]

1. I hate the original post and I agree that it does need some tweaking before it goes live.

2. I nearly have all of my ED's maxed on my main toon. I will continue to gain ED XP simply because I enjoy playing that toon. If the new system takes away that XP...I promise people, life will go on. Stop complaining...just stop....its silly.

3. If you dont agree with the way the new system is ultimately implemented, you have 3 choices:

a. Deal with it, and continue to play because you enjoy the game and friends you have in game.
b. Don't TR...if you like where your toon is...by all means leave it there...it is really that simple.
c. Stop playing, no one is forcing you to play...if you are unhappy...stop...again it is that simple.

Think of it this way...read any (and I mean any)of the potential game changing threads and you will see messages similar to what you read here....epic fail, stupid, etc...hello??? You are still here which means that time and time again you have picked option "A" above.

Turbine will ultimately do hat they think is best (even if some of us don't agree) so get over it and stop moaning about a "potential" change that is not completely laid out yet.

Now all of the above stated, I have a 36 point build with nearly all ED's close to or maxed out....I will continue grinding, I will TR to have a 38 point build, I will continue the grind on whatever level I need to. If you don't like what ultimately happens when it actually does happen, move along....it is exactly that simple!!!

[serenityangel]

Heroic True Reincarnation

Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above //this makes us think there are no changes..
blah, blah
Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below) //this makes us concerned...

Epic Advantage


With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

// So this is our problem... "by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks." means you are changing from one form to another, effectively erasing all destiny levels. We need 100% clarification if all destiny levels will get wiped on a Heroic TR. We need to know if our fate points total will be reduced to 0. We need to know if our map progress and access to each of the destinies are also erased. We need this clarification ASAP!! Or we will NOT buy tomes of fate, keys of destinies or TR our toons with maxed destinies leading up to your wonderful changes to TRing unless we are certain to cap before the update comes.

Thanks for your prompt answers to these questions, destiny wipe? fate point total? and map access to each destiny?

[Silverleafeon]

At the moment, the XP to cap at 28 would be:


Level Total XP XP/Level Increase
21 300,000 300,000
22 750,000 450,000 150,000
23 1,350,000 600,000 150,000
24 2,100,000 750,000 150,000
25 3,000,000 900,000 150,000
26 4,050,000 1,050,000 150,000
27 5,250,000 1,200,000 150,000
28 6,600,000 1,350,000 150,000


I'm guessing that their smoothing of the Epic XP curve would be more like:


Level Total XP XP/Level Increase
21 300,000 300,000
22 675,000 375,000 75,000
23 1,125,000 450,000 75,000
24 1,650,000 525,000 75,000
25 2,250,000 600,000 75,000
26 2,925,000 675,000 75,000
27 3,675,000 750,000 75,000
28 4,500,000 825,000 75,000


Who knows, might even be less. But if they keep ED XP as it is, this still means you will automatically cap a new destiny at 1,980,000 somewhere in Level 24.

Now you can't compare Heroic XP quests to Epic XP quests in terms of the xp/min, so I don't see this as being difficult to achieve. Easily doable in a week.

Likewise, I see no need at all to change the Heroic XP requirements. When people are buying XP stones and doing a whole life in a weekend, and those of us who prefer not to cheat and bypass can do it in 34 hrs of quest time, there is no problem to solve here. Sure, it takes a casual player longer, but that's just the way it is. Rather than touching Heroic XP and the 1st, 2nd, 3rd+ life XP requirements, address the issue of crappy Heroic Quest XP instead so that people have a greater variety of quests to gain XP from in the first place. If there is a problem with the time it's taking people to get to 20, deal with the cause, not the effect.

Also, on the Epic TR dropping you to level 1+ranks (so level 12 with all ED's capped), wouldn't you be Epic TRing into an Iconic at level 15+ranks (so level 20 with all ED's capped)?

My big concern is when the level cap goes up to 40, any incremental increase makes things awful eventually.

I would prefer to see what was in the First Edition D&D rules, that after a certain point all levels require the
same amount of xp to earn. That way Epic Quest xp can be about the same amounts for each one.


No I don't like epic advantage at all.
Who cares about little bonuses to one life.
I would hard for that Epic Destiny xp, and I am proud to have capped it out.

The whole proposal does not even account for the expected increase to level 30 next year.

Yes amaranth xp is awful, yes challenge xp is awful, but doing a legend life requires
carefully planning out xp and that is not good. It scares people and intimidates them.
Yes we should address those quests with poor xp, but we should also be some sort
of restrant on xp spirals.

It makes no sense at all, that level 18 to 19 and 19 to 20 each costs around a half million xp when level
20 to 21 only costs 300 k xp.

The spiral on epic xp and epic destiny xp is horrible when you consider that epic destinies are
going to be increased as well the level cap.

[Teh_Troll]

I'm done with Turbine's grind. This game is easy enough that none of that is necessary.

The need to TR has always been more widely regarded that the advantages it gives. The advantages are small, so small that a triple-completionist only has a tiny edge overa 32-point mook with maxxed EDs.

My maxxed ED characters HAVE NO NEED TO TR. I TR think because it's something to do and I like playing the lower level stuff (that feels more like D&D) than what the pathetic end-game has become.

A small negligible power increase - on toons that already make EE content look easy - just isn't needed.

So I and many others will simply never TR again. That'll cost Turbine more money and any P2Win profit they get off of the suckers who continue to play this rat-race.

[Darkrok]

And yeah, for those of you that aren't willing to quit the grind like I am, Carpone's point about there being no equivalent to Rusted Blades is VERY important to keep in mind. I've seen mentions of anything from 33-43 hours of grind in here in Rusted Blades to earn back that xp. Those seem about right...only they're completely wrong for the new game. We simply don't know what it will take in the new game but my guess...much more than 33-43 hours. There won't be a Rusted Blades to grind anymore nor is there likely to be an equivalent quest. Based on their goals they messed up the time/reward on that one and probably fired the dev that gave a quest to make the ED grind somewhat bearable.

I'll also toss this log on the bonfire - I heard from someone in game that there was also a plan in the works to implement a repeat penalty for doing a quest more than 2 times in a day. That penalty would stack with repeat penalties on a character and would be far more punitive. I have no corroboration on that and no personal knowledge to back it up...just throwing it out there to see if anyone else had heard about anything stupid like that as well.

On the plus side, that'd fit in well with my new Zen approach to DDO. I'm not going to want to do a quest more than once anyways since I don't care about progressing. :P

[Teh_Troll]

[QUOTE=Darkrok;5021318]
I'll also toss this log on the bonfire - I heard from someone in game that there was also a plan in the works to implement a repeat penalty for doing a quest more than 2 times in a day. That penalty would stack with repeat penalties on a character and would be far more punitive. I have no corroboration on that and no personal knowledge to back it up...just throwing it out there to see if anyone else had heard about anything stupid like that as well. /[QUOTE]

Come on man, there's enough legit d000m here that we don't need FUD.

[Silverleafeon]

Thanks for your prompt answers to these questions, destiny wipe? fate point total? and map access to each destiny?

Aye, this the sticking point.

Give me choices, lots of choices, let me keep my goodies as I please.
Dangle some big carrots in the right places.

[Darkrok]

To all of the people posting variations of 'stop whining':

This is a message board. The request in the original post was for people's honest feedback toward their changes. An overwhelming majority of the people on the board view the 'epic advantage' as an epic disaster. They're voicing that opinion.

Everyone posting here would not be posting if they didn't really enjoy the game at some point in time. Some of the posters still do while some don't but hold out an in some cases very small hope that they might again in the future. We're all in the same boat here. We want to see Turbine thrive while making a game that we personally enjoy. I can say for a fact that playing the game the way that Turbine envisions it at the moment would not be enjoyable to me. Stating that isn't whining - it's giving honest feedback.

So please, let's stay on topic. No accusations of people being 'fanbois' or that people are just whining. We really do all want the same thing - an enjoyable game for us from a successful company. It's just that many of us don't see that in the cards based on these changes.

[Coyopa]

1. I hate the original post and I agree that it does need some tweaking before it goes live.

2. I nearly have all of my ED's maxed on my main toon. I will continue to gain ED XP simply because I enjoy playing that toon. If the new system takes away that XP...I promise people, life will go on. Stop complaining...just stop....its silly.

3. If you dont agree with the way the new system is ultimately implemented, you have 3 choices:

a. Deal with it, and continue to play because you enjoy the game and friends you have in game.
b. Don't TR...if you like where your toon is...by all means leave it there...it is really that simple.
c. Stop playing, no one is forcing you to play...if you are unhappy...stop...again it is that simple.

Think of it this way...read any (and I mean any)of the potential game changing threads and you will see messages similar to what you read here....epic fail, stupid, etc...hello??? You are still here which means that time and time again you have picked option "A" above.

Turbine will ultimately do hat they think is best (even if some of us don't agree) so get over it and stop moaning about a "potential" change that is not completely laid out yet.

Now all of the above stated, I have a 36 point build with nearly all ED's close to or maxed out....I will continue grinding, I will TR to have a 38 point build, I will continue the grind on whatever level I need to. If you don't like what ultimately happens when it actually does happen, move along....it is exactly that simple!!!

People are voicing their opinion of the plan Glin laid out. Why is this wrong? Especially when coupled with the fact that Glin specifically requested player feedback on the plan. While there certainly are people who have complained about plans and threatened to quit yet did not quit, I am not one of those people. I have not liked the look of much of the enhancements alpha, but I have not really said much and I certainly have not threatened to quit over it.

I like TR'ing now and again (I have done it four times, each on different characters). I also like my characters' abilities with the destiny abilities they have. Finally, I like that I can TR and my characters' epic abilities are there when they return to epic levels. If I have to choose between being able to TR (and yet giving up all my epic abilities until I re-earn all that exp) OR not TR'ing anymore, then I will take your third option and leave the game. It really is that simple for me. I have other things with which to occupy my time. I choose to spend some of my time (probably a little more than I really *should*) playing in Turbine's sandbox. I recognize this is their sandbox and they can do what they want. However, you have to remember that Turbine *wants* people playing in their sandbox. It really is trivial for me to change sandboxes and, since having to choose between TR'ing or not will dramatically diminish my fun, then Turbine should know that - for me and in my opinion - their proposed changes will diminish my fun sufficiently that I will find a new sandbox.

[Silverleafeon]

And yeah, for those of you that aren't willing to quit the grind like I am, Carpone's point about there being no equivalent to Rusted Blades is VERY important to keep in mind. I've seen mentions of anything from 33-43 hours of grind in here in Rusted Blades to earn back that xp. Those seem about right...only they're completely wrong for the new game. We simply don't know what it will take in the new game but my guess...much more than 33-43 hours. There won't be a Rusted Blades to grind anymore nor is there likely to be an equivalent quest.

So everyone farmed out their epic destinies because they knew the level cap was increasing.

Indeed, they did not nerf rusted blades because we would protest too much,
well protest now and let them know some of this proposal is awful.

[Darkrok]

I'll also toss this log on the bonfire - I heard from someone in game that there was also a plan in the works to implement a repeat penalty for doing a quest more than 2 times in a day. That penalty would stack with repeat penalties on a character and would be far more punitive. I have no corroboration on that and no personal knowledge to back it up...just throwing it out there to see if anyone else had heard about anything stupid like that as well.

Come on man, there's enough legit d000m here that we don't need FUD.

I know, and I hesitated to post it, but this is stuff that you start to actually listen to when Turbine makes decisions as off-the-wall as wiping ED xp on a heroic TR. And the person that said this in game wasn't one of the typical tin-foil hat types. So I don't know...I'm honestly just asking here.

[Silverleafeon]

People are voicing their opinion of the plan Glin laid out. Why is this wrong? Especially when coupled with the fact that Glin specifically requested player feedback on the plan. While there certainly are people who have complained about plans and threatened to quit yet did not quit, I am not one of those people. I have not liked the look of much of the enhancements alpha, but I have not really said much and I certainly have not threatened to quit over it.

I like TR'ing now and again (I have done it four times, each on different characters). I also like my characters' abilities with the destiny abilities they have. Finally, I like that I can TR and my characters' epic abilities are there when they return to epic levels. If I have to choose between being able to TR (and yet giving up all my epic abilities until I re-earn all that exp) OR not TR'ing anymore, then I will take your third option and leave the game. It really is that simple for me. I have other things with which to occupy my time. I choose to spend some of my time (probably a little more than I really *should*) playing in Turbine's sandbox. I recognize this is their sandbox and they can do what they want. However, you have to remember that Turbine *wants* people playing in their sandbox. It really is trivial for me to change sandboxes and, since having to choose between TR'ing or not will dramatically diminish my fun, then Turbine should know that - for me and in my opinion - their proposed changes will diminish my fun sufficiently that I will find a new sandbox.

Well said.

I love this game, but this...

[Teh_Troll]

People are voicing their opinion of the plan Glin laid out. Why is this wrong?


Fanbois are immune to logic.

A feedback thread getting this much negativity is a canary in a coalmine.

[sebastianosmith]

So my new plan. I will NOT quit playing. That would reward Turbine. I will become a F2P leach. I will spend nothing with Turbine. I will play as often as I feel like playing but purposely not improve my characters. I will lead no raids, I will organize no groups. I will simply play what I feel like playing, mostly when my kids are playing, and I'll run whatever difficulty I feel like running. Because I'm purposely not caring about progression. Turbine has made it clear that any progression you do on a character is subject to removal. Then to heck with progressing! I'll enjoy their game a lot more now that I'll be playing it on my terms, the 100's of dollars I've spent with them in the last year will go to $0 in the next year, and I'll probably log on a lot less now that the only reason I'll play is to play - not to spend hours in Rusted Blades, running flagging quests I don't like to run a raid I don't like to grind for one item - no, I'm done with Turbine's grind. This game is easy enough that none of that is necessary.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but why and for what were you playing before this revelation?

[Silverleafeon]

To all of the people posting variations of 'stop whining':

This is a message board. The request in the original post was for people's honest feedback toward their changes. An overwhelming majority of the people on the board view the 'epic advantage' as an epic disaster. They're voicing that opinion.

Everyone posting here would not be posting if they didn't really enjoy the game at some point in time. Some of the posters still do while some don't but hold out an in some cases very small hope that they might again in the future. We're all in the same boat here. We want to see Turbine thrive while making a game that we personally enjoy. I can say for a fact that playing the game the way that Turbine envisions it at the moment would not be enjoyable to me. Stating that isn't whining - it's giving honest feedback.

So please, let's stay on topic. No accusations of people being 'fanbois' or that people are just whining. We really do all want the same thing - an enjoyable game for us from a successful company. It's just that many of us don't see that in the cards based on these changes.

Well said.

This company is based in the USA where freedom of speech is cherished.

[Silverleafeon]

Well I guess time to go play my game.
Sigh, level up towards 25 and wonder about the future.

[chrisdinus7]

First, my understanding is that bonded destinies will keep their exp, but unbonded destinies will lose it. So, if you chain TR, it sounds like after 11 epic TRs, you'd be permanently maxed in all 11 destinies (obviously, if they do a new one, you'd need to TR again).

Which raises the question, why bother wiping the destiny exp? Getting to level 28 will require far more exp then it takes to level a destiny. Seems like the loss of exp to 28 should be enough to justify the benefit of the feat. And, since you come into with your bonded destinies intact, you could still bring overwhelming firepower to the quests, as needed. You'd still be a full-on furyshotter or what ever once you hit 20, so you can overpower anything that gives you challenge, and just extract the few million you need to cap this life's destiny where is easy for you (or wait till cap, then max it by grinding something easy like rusted blades). And you can still grind rusted blades. Cap, but stop at 26. Rusted blades is level 22 (24 taking into account the adjustments to epic quests for the purposes of over-level penalties). That is a 10% penalty on norm, and no penalty on hard.

Overall, the proposal seems fine for those that like to chain TR. They can whip out their 11 TRs, and be back to a permanently fullly capped destiny toon. But it seems to discourage those who take significant pauses between their TRs and those who only rarely TR. That is a bad thing. Seems to me that you might as well just make the sacrifice in exchange for power the exp required to get to 28.

Also, heroic TRs really shouldn't remove your destiny exp. They should stay as is.

If you are really insistence on wiping non-bonded destiny exp:
- Twist points should stay (though only be earned for gaining destiny ranks you have never gained before. Or twist points should just go up to some maximum amount)
- You should retain access (at level 0) of any destiny you have ever unlocked.

[SerPounce]

1. I hate the original post and I agree that it does need some tweaking before it goes live.

2. I nearly have all of my ED's maxed on my main toon. I will continue to gain ED XP simply because I enjoy playing that toon. If the new system takes away that XP...I promise people, life will go on. Stop complaining...just stop....its silly.

3. If you dont agree with the way the new system is ultimately implemented, you have 3 choices:

a. Deal with it, and continue to play because you enjoy the game and friends you have in game.
b. Don't TR...if you like where your toon is...by all means leave it there...it is really that simple.
c. Stop playing, no one is forcing you to play...if you are unhappy...stop...again it is that simple.

Think of it this way...read any (and I mean any)of the potential game changing threads and you will see messages similar to what you read here....epic fail, stupid, etc...hello??? You are still here which means that time and time again you have picked option "A" above.

Turbine will ultimately do hat they think is best (even if some of us don't agree) so get over it and stop moaning about a "potential" change that is not completely laid out yet.

Now all of the above stated, I have a 36 point build with nearly all ED's close to or maxed out....I will continue grinding, I will TR to have a 38 point build, I will continue the grind on whatever level I need to. If you don't like what ultimately happens when it actually does happen, move along....it is exactly that simple!!!

It's a feedback thread, the point is to give feedback.

[Da_Most_Shady]

This is becoming a massive thread with huge walls of text, so I just skimmed through it and I find the majority of people saying to just leave the ED of all the ones you do not want to TR to. Well that is all fine and dandy for the people that only want to do one or two. But what about all the competionist out there that will want to get the epic completionist?

What people are suggesting is still screwing over those people because they will still lose all their 20 million xp and have to get 20 million xp again to get the epic completionist.That is just poor design.

My suggestion, just stay away from epic destinies. Leave the xp alone but make it so you have to cap the destinies to get that ED past life or whatever you want to call it. So you just have to TR from 20-28 and earn enough to cap the destiny you want to TR if you have not capped it yet.

Do not see me capping both of my completionist in every destiny all over again plus the whatever million it will take to get to 20-28 every time.

On a side note, make completionist a FREE FEAT! Even the epic one. Make it happen, long overdue.

[Darkrok]

People are voicing their opinion of the plan Glin laid out. Why is this wrong? Especially when coupled with the fact that Glin specifically requested player feedback on the plan. While there certainly are people who have complained about plans and threatened to quit yet did not quit, I am not one of those people. I have not liked the look of much of the enhancements alpha, but I have not really said much and I certainly have not threatened to quit over it.

I like TR'ing now and again (I have done it four times, each on different characters). I also like my characters' abilities with the destiny abilities they have. Finally, I like that I can TR and my characters' epic abilities are there when they return to epic levels. If I have to choose between being able to TR (and yet giving up all my epic abilities until I re-earn all that exp) OR not TR'ing anymore, then I will take your third option and leave the game. It really is that simple for me. I have other things with which to occupy my time. I choose to spend some of my time (probably a little more than I really *should*) playing in Turbine's sandbox. I recognize this is their sandbox and they can do what they want. However, you have to remember that Turbine *wants* people playing in their sandbox. It really is trivial for me to change sandboxes and, since having to choose between TR'ing or not will dramatically diminish my fun, then Turbine should know that - for me and in my opinion - their proposed changes will diminish my fun sufficiently that I will find a new sandbox.

Exactly this. Now, I'm not a person that has a completionist. I have 3 fighter/1 monk pl's on my main toon at the moment (which would get another monk pl on TR'ing and is at least level 5 in all ED's) and 3 wizard pl's on my second toon (a sorc/pally shiradi that is at least level 3 in all ED's with 4/1/1 twists). My crafter at the moment has 1 fvs and 1 pally pl and would get an arti pl on tr'ing (no ED's) and then I have a level 20 bard that I haven't played since the last major changes to the game.

I list those toons just to show my own loss on xp versus gained xp. I'll take my main toon now, Tajawuka.

4 past lives = 13,796,250xp
10 ED's averaging about 2 ranks in to level 5 on all of them = 16,920,000xp

So basically, to TR Tajawuka I'm giving up just over 55% of all of my xp earned on the character over the life of the toon (not just this life. This would be the equivalent of a completionist that never passed level 20 losing half their previous past lives the first time they TR'd after the update. If that was Turbine's suggestion what would people's reaction be? And this toon isn't even an extreme example. I'm sure there are people that rolled up a toon, loved it, never TR'd, and just through the course of regular play capped out the ED's on their favorite, 32-point toon. In their case they have 4.9million xp in getting to level 25 and stand to lose 19.8million xp in ED xp. That's over 80% of the xp they've gotten over the life of their character!

So yeah, when you stand to lose that much of an investment looking at a new game or just giving up on caring about any investment in this one doesn't look quite as extreme anymore.

[oopsagain]

Well said.

This company is based in the USA where freedom of speech is cherished.

This is a privately owned discussion board. Therefore "Freedom of speech" should never even be brought into the conversation, period.

As for people complaining about others complaining.... It's not others place to decide what is and what isn't proper ways to complain or not to complain, only for them to agree or disagree.

That being said....

I thank "Senior producer Glin" for ensuring that I have no reason to bother considering re-subscribing, to this sadly run game again. It's clear with this half-baked idea, that the Dev team has no clue on how not to penalize the longtime player base with new overly complicated, and what is to yet another bugged out, unfinished mess of a "system". But I guess it fits the DDO development pattern of the last 5 years. Start something and never finish it.

[Deadlock]

Seems that im near the only thats ok with that system.

To max the 11 ED you just need to spend 1 weekend on rusted blades. Yeah.. big lose. I want my 2 days back ¬¬'

You've just succinctly described the least fun way of achieving that goal.

Unfortunately, this just gives more ammunication to the people protesting against the whole Epic TR thing, well done if that was your goal.

An alternative might be to, oh, I don't know, maybe play your character through more interesting quests from level 20 to 28 each time?

[Teh_Troll]

So yeah, when you stand to lose that much of an investment looking at a new game or just giving up on caring about any investment in this one doesn't look quite as extreme anymore.

What Turbine needs to realize is their game is not as addictive as cigarettes and heroin.

All video games are distractions, MMOs keep you hooked by giving you a false sense of achievement that many lack in RL or in addition to RL achievements.

You invalidate people's time when you flush their work down the toilet. We already had this happen with loot, now with ED XP it's enough to shake people off Turbine's teet and find another hobby.

I d000m!!! because I care. I love this game and want it to stay around for a while. but man this change truely is as bad as we're saying. Talking with people raiding last night not a single persons didn't think this was the dumbest thing Turbine's ever proposed.

[Teh_Troll]

You've just succinctly described the least fun way of achieving that goal.

Unfortunately, this just gives more ammunication to the people who don't like it, well done.

An alternative might be to, oh, I don't know, maybe play your character through more interesting quests from level 20 to 28 each time?

I like playing EEs.

Playing EEs in and off-destiny just plain sucks and is the opposite of fun for many people.

Some people like being strong and effective, some like to pike in an off-destiny.

[Darkrok]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but why and for what were you playing before this revelation?

Honestly? Turbine set out goals for players. Gaining past lives and gaining gear were the two main ways that you could improve a character. That was the 'scorecard' in this game. Most people play games for two reasons - because they're fun and to win. Very few games lack a 'win'-state or some semblance of one at least. My point is that Turbine has lurched so much from one direction to another that I've given up on playing to 'win' anything in this game. They've proven with this change that they're willing to wipe out over 80% of your progression toward 'winning' (see my previous post for the numbers) if you decide you'd like to progress your character further. And this is progress we were told was permanent.

As another example, this would be akin to Turbine changing their mind and wiping all crafting xp the next time you TR. Sure, you can not TR - but they've now taken away most of the options that character has at progressing toward some Turbine-defined 'win'-state unless you're willing to regrind all of that crafting xp.

So to answer your question succinctly - I played before because it was fun and because I wanted to make my character as good as I could within Turbine's game. Now I've given up that latter part. I'll play for my enjoyment only because building a community in a game where so many people are getting ticked off and leaving is a losing battle and trying to read Turbine's mind about what progression won't be wiped out in the next update is a battle completely lost. I'm off their treadmill. And I'm off their balance sheet.

[Darkrok]

I d000m!!! because I care. I love this game and want it to stay around for a while.

+1

[Deadlock]

I don't like that fact that epic xp keeps incrementally increasing.
I would prefer to see all epic levels cost XX points to gain.

Does it?

My reading is that they will reduce the XP requirements to get back to 28 when this is introduced. See post 340 for some guestimates (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418543-Epic-Level-amp-Iconic-TR?p=5021120&viewfull=1#post5021120).

[Silverleafeon]

Sigh...

Drinking an xp potion again, to protect from repletion penalty in case I cannot TR
due to all this .

tells you, 'lol huge DDO forum raucus huh?'

[Silverleafeon]

Does it?

My reading is that they will reduce the XP requirements to get back to 28 when this is introduced. See post 340 for some guestimates (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418543-Epic-Level-amp-Iconic-TR?p=5021120&viewfull=1#post5021120).

Even with your estimated reductions, each level gets larger.

Past evidence shows that the level cap will increase every year or two.
Even with your reductions, it get crazy big fast if you add 10 more levels.

[Mryal]

Allright so this idea somehow beats the 'hard to kill' (for those that remember that) and is the worst you guys ever had.

Epic TR can be a cool concept.But what you guys (turbine) are failing to notice is,while we all know TR is suposed to reset everything, it was always that way, it has also been established that TRing didnt reset EDs.Making heroic TR reset your EDs now (or any kind of TR) gives the whole 'Turbine gives then takes away feeling', wich is TRUE for that statement.

Before this proposed changes, TRing would not reset your EDs, now TRing would reset your EDs regardless, that is taking something away from costumers for no reason, and you never do that on any kind of business.

When i first heard of Epic TR, this is what the idea i had of what it would be : TR at 28 back to 20 using one ED.Why not try that.

Heres the whole proposal:

Heroic TR: Can be taken at any lv 20+, doesnt resets EDs, doesnt gives any ED related benefits.Works 100% as per live

Epic TR: Must be taken at 28 (or 30, will it be 30 one day? when it does, is the whole system gonna change again cause it will be 30?), must choose a maxed ED to keep, gives TR feat on that ED, does not reset anything.TRs you back to level 20, possibly increasing xp needed between 20-28 accordingly to how heroic TR works now.

If you TR on both heroic + epic way at the same time youre taken back to 1 and if you were alredy 36 points in the previous life youre now 38.Does not affects heroic xp curve, everything else is the same as mentioned above.

[Silverleafeon]

tells you, 'lol I think they really need to clarify epic advantage for heroic tring :)'

tells you, 'you know for my toons right now.. I can't think of any reason to get any exp for my toons that aren't already 25'

tells you, 'all my other toons are gonna go up to lvl 20.. then just TR lol.. cause it useless to go to 25 for me...'

tells you, 'I can't imagine anyone buying a tome of fate or keys of destiny right now, can you? lol'


this is big if I log in and start getting tells in game about it

[Devilteck]

For some clarification from the devs on this, if a said person has grinded out all the ED's to max this person will have to start over? Because if that's the case then I will be done with this game for ever. I spent countless hours grinding the darn things so when I'm working on my completionist project(6th life atm) I would not have to worry about this when I was leveling epics if I chose to. Now if all that hard work and time has been wasted for a money grab I and my guild of at least 200 members have vowed to quite this game because enough is enough. If a dev could clarify this then /rant off. I don't mind change but when the game changes so much that people waste literally 100's of hours of game time because of a money grab then say its because the players asked for it I call shenanigans. And for the love of all the DDO gods can some one tell me how the put in carriage returns because no matter what I do it takes them out. Thanks.

[Silverleafeon]

Sigh now I am real upset.

Going into the demonweb which I am going to be utterly lost, so I hate having an xp potion ticking.

But drinking the xp potion anyway to second guess my second guess of my second guess.

Sigh...I used to admire the Devs...

[Postumus]

I like the idea but not my interpreted understanding of the implementation planned, plz don't take all our destiny xp for Epic Re-Incarnation, obviously take our epic level xp tho.


All the 'killing the game' and 'I'll quit for real' noise aside, I have a few questions regarding how the proposed TR changes appear to work.


HEROIC TRing (HTR):


1-Assuming I understood what was written in the OP (always a long shot), it sounds like if I don't care about epic EDs and I TR my character immediately upon L20, then I won't even notice a change to HTRing?

2- If I max one epic destiny and 'lock in' before TRing, it sounds like I get to keep that ED every time I HTR? So like now, but I only get to keep one ED instead of however many I've unlocked.



EPIC TRing (ETR):


1- Theoretically, if I wanted a 38 point build, can't I just HTR three times, then ETR once? That only requires me to max two ED trees for my ETR right? Wouldn't I just do that before maxing out the rest of my EDs? That way I would only have to repeat one ED (presumably a fun one that I enjoy) one time and still get a 38 point build?

[CaptainSpacePony]

First and foremost, let me say the proposed changes to reincarnation are TERRIFIC! Ever since the level cap was raised to 25, the TR system has felt outdated and lacking in many ways. Currently, most characters that TR don't spend a lot of time in epic content as it does little to nothing for their next life. Most characters galavanting about in epic content don't TR as it's a grind and offers little incentive at end game, especially when compared to EDs and twists of fate. This new system makes we WANT to play all content with my completionist (in progress) each life instead of starting over when I hit Eveningstar.

Glin's OP was terrific news from a game play perspective, however, as the majority of replies on the thread clearly indicate, it is political minefield for two and a half big reasons:
1. Since ED introduction, ED XP persists through reincarnation, as initially intended.
2. Many players have invested time, effort, and love into fleshing out or maxing their EDs. The maxers in particular feel threatened by the announced change.
2.5. Glin must have known his announcement would go over like exploding a bag of excrement (extra sulfur) in church yet the announcement did not actively engage and strive to mitigate the imminent backlash.

It would have been terrific if the epic TR system had been rolled out last year, but it wasn't so now it seems the options are to either cave into the DooOOOMmmMMsayers and scrap the plan or to make the most of it. If my first sentence didn't already make it clear, I strongly support the latter. To do this, I have a few recommendations, some are design based, but most are information/communication campaign based.

1. Clarify that Karmic bonds stack. Each time you epic TR you can get an additional bonded ED, so after enough ETRs, all your EDs are locked in (again). This was pretty clearly implied in the OP, but should be more clearly stated.
1a. Clarify the limit to the number of epic past life feats attainable (considering the current number of EDs). The OP states that ETR requires a non-bonded ED, which would limit the number of ETRs and therefore the max number of Epic past life feats to the number of EDs. That would mean no Epic completionist x3. Is this WAI?

2. Point out that crossing "unwanted" EDs to get to your "final" ED is less bothersome for those that ETR because they will begin a new ED at lvl 20 each life so they are less likely to have to slog through superfluous EDs to get where they want.

3. RESTRUCTURE THE ED RAINBOW BRIDGES! If toons must continue to level an ED to a certain level before switching (currently 3 or 4) then the paths between EDs NEED to be shortened. I propose allowing all EDs to be directly connected to one another. If that is unnacceptable, at a minimum, ALL spheres should have direct links between their most flavorfully similar EDs. With the current EDs the bridges should be
Unyielding Sentinel <--> Grandmaster of Flowers (no change)
Fatesinger <--> Shadowdancer (no change)
Fury of the Wild <--> Legendary Dreadnaught (Barbarians' default ED should have always been closer to the martial sphere than the Fey archers')
Primal Avatar <--> Exalted Angel (Druid was originally a Cleric sub-class)
Exalted Angel <--> Magister (A caster to caster link)
Draconic Incarnation <--> Shiradi Champion (Shriadi is more a caster ED and both EDs are tied to extra-racial heritage)

As future EDs are released, the bridges should shift. (For example if a "cleric" ED is released, it would connect to Primal Avatar in place of Exalted Angel.

4. As noted in an earlier, brilliant post, Epic advantage needs to be 2 ranks/ED level. (This will go A LONG way to appeasing those min-maxers who feel obligated to have everything (completionistx3, max EDs etc) who are feeling alienated by the change.)

5. Repeat XP penalties. It's been said countless times in numerous threads, but especially in anticipation of TRs requiring more even more XP, this issue needs relief. Dodging content at level so you can farm it cap is unfun. There are lots of suggestions on how to address this, and the one I'll put forward again to have the penalties decay/vanish over time (like ransak for example).

6. Consider a Fate point/twist of fate incentive for ETR. There has been some good discussion in the this thread.

7. Clarify how Icon TRs affect the completionist feat(s). (I assume not at all as they aren't a class.)

8. Do NOT make the epic past life feats OP. (eg Magister PL eb +5 DC and 5 Spell pen. With a 3x stack That would be +15 DC and spell Pen!!!) We don't need or want that kind of arms race. DDO is game of inches that add up. EDs slipped a bit there last year (OP IMO) don't do it again.

For those who are feeling frustrated by the announcement, and are saying they'll quit, consider this, You won't lose any ED xP if you don't TR! Step back, take a breath and consider that while the news may be unwelcome, it really is a much better design that the current model. Turbine is striving to make the game the best they can. This new system is a big improvement, although the adjustment will be uncomfortable. Keep giving them feedback on how best to implement it to make the game better.

Thanks for the read.

[Silverleafeon]

You Devs owe me two apologizes for scaring us twice with alpha and this.

[Deadlock]

My big concern is when the level cap goes up to 40, any incremental increase makes things awful eventually.

I would prefer to see what was in the First Edition D&D rules, that after a certain point all levels require the
same amount of xp to earn. That way Epic Quest xp can be about the same amounts for each one.

Let's deal with one crisis at a time.

When or if the level cap is raised to 40, there's nothing stopping them from rescaling the Epic XP if they decide that's what they want to do. We'll worry about that another day, it's fixable.



No I don't like epic advantage at all.
Who cares about little bonuses to one life.
I would hard for that Epic Destiny xp, and I am proud to have capped it out.

The whole proposal does not even account for the expected increase to level 30 next year.

Epic advantage will allow anyone with 25 ED levels to start an Iconic at 20. That's not trivial.



Yes amaranth xp is awful, yes challenge xp is awful, but doing a legend life requires
carefully planning out xp and that is not good. It scares people and intimidates them.
Yes we should address those quests with poor xp, but we should also be some sort
of restrant on xp spirals.

It makes no sense at all, that level 18 to 19 and 19 to 20 each costs around a half million xp when level
20 to 21 only costs 300 k xp.

The spiral on epic xp and epic destiny xp is horrible when you consider that epic destinies are
going to be increased as well the level cap.

Heroic XP is fine as it is. Without playing for crazy hours, you can comfortably do a 3rd life in 2 weeks, a month if you're seriously casual about doing it and choose not to farm anything. It shouldn't be touched, but some quests should be addressed.

From 18 to 19 and 19 to 20 are the culmination of your Heroic life, it's the final hurdle that you need to overcome to achieve Epic status.

If they keep Heroic TR as it is without affecting your ED XP in any way, then it is crystal clear to people that if they choose to Epic TR for whatever reason they will lose ED XP in anything that's not bonded. This makes it a simple choice for people:
(a) If you want to lose your Heroic XP and Epic XP but keep your ED XP and gain a Heroic Past Life, then you should Heroic TR.
(b) If you want to lose your Heroic XP, Epic XP and ED XP but gain an ED Past Life or TR into an Iconic Hero then you should Epic TR.

It's the lack of choice in retaining your ED XP that I see as the problem.

[Postumus]

For some clarification from the devs on this, if a said person has grinded out all the ED's to max this person will have to start over? Because if that's the case then I will be done with this game for ever.


OK, not picking a fight here, serious question: why would you have to start over? If we don't ETR don't we get to keep all the EDs we earned? Did I miss a key point in the OP somewhere?

[Redtalktree]

[QUOTE=CaptainSpacePony;...
...

For those who are feeling frustrated by the announcement, and are saying they'll quit, consider this, You won't lose any ED xP if you don't TR! Step back, take a breath and consider that while the news may be unwelcome, it really is a much better design that the current model. Turbine is striving to make the game the best they can. This new system is a big improvement, although the adjustment will be uncomfortable. Keep giving them feedback on how best to implement it to make the game better.

Thanks for the read.[/QUOTE]

Erm...if you do TR make it soon... not when ETR is implemented..TR is necessary when you need to change race, and when you do you get ETR hammered.. yup.. good idea hammer session time...

[sebastianosmith]

Honestly? Turbine set out goals for players. Gaining past lives and gaining gear were the two main ways that you could improve a character. That was the 'scorecard' in this game. Most people play games for two reasons - because they're fun and to win. Very few games lack a 'win'-state or some semblance of one at least. My point is that Turbine has lurched so much from one direction to another that I've given up on playing to 'win' anything in this game. They've proven with this change that they're willing to wipe out over 80% of your progression toward 'winning' (see my previous post for the numbers) if you decide you'd like to progress your character further. And this is progress we were told was permanent.

As another example, this would be akin to Turbine changing their mind and wiping all crafting xp the next time you TR. Sure, you can not TR - but they've now taken away most of the options that character has at progressing toward some Turbine-defined 'win'-state unless you're willing to regrind all of that crafting xp.

So to answer your question succinctly - I played before because it was fun and because I wanted to make my character as good as I could within Turbine's game. Now I've given up that latter part. I'll play for my enjoyment only because building a community in a game where so many people are getting ticked off and leaving is a losing battle and trying to read Turbine's mind about what progression won't be wiped out in the next update is a battle completely lost. I'm off their treadmill. And I'm off their balance sheet.

Well, fair enough.

I've always played this game - both MMO and P&P versions - for sheer entertainment. "Winning", however it is defined, has never really been a goal for me. The elation it provides is fleeting and mostly ephemeral considering there is no discernible completion point. I take pleasure from little victories along the way. If there was a definitive ending, I'd lose the opportunity to do that.

To each, his own.

Thank you for the candid response.

[mons]

I still believe that the Completionist feat should be granted for FREE upon completion of all classes for Heroic and now Epic levels. I mean common, the Grind that exists now and the one you propose for Epic is just ridiculous. There's really no reward as you have to purchase it regardless.

And on another note:

Enough with the **** poor thought out process that Turbine has done so consistently in the past. If your gonna change everything yet again, then please, listen to what the folks here that play the game are telling ya and do it right for once.

[NytCrawlr]

When i first heard of Epic TR, this is what the idea i had of what it would be : TR at 28 back to 20 using one ED.Why not try that.

Yup! Exactly what I thought, or at least was hoping, it would be.

But so far it seems that they want to stick it to you for playing the grind game.

Granted, I only have one character with max EDs, and while I would like to get the others there at some point, I don't think it is fair on any level to have to redo what we earned through EDs just because we want to TR.

Fooled me once, not going to let myself get fooled again. Too many newer and more enjoyable (for me) games out there right now, and I will have no inclination to return or use this as a game to take breaks from others if this sort of thing is implemented.

Still waiting for more info and hoping something was lost in the context (or that they will at least rethink their strategy).

[Teh_Troll]

OK, not picking a fight here, serious question: why would you have to start over? If we don't ETR don't we get to keep all the EDs we earned? Did I miss a key point in the OP somewhere?

Yes, you missed a point. EDs will get reset with HEROIC TR as well.

That's what we're raging about.

[Postumus]

Heroic XP is fine as it is. Without playing for crazy hours, you can comfortably do a 3rd life in 2 weeks, a month if you're seriously casual about doing it and choose not to farm anything. It shouldn't be touched, but some quests should be addressed.

From 18 to 19 and 19 to 20 are the culmination of your Heroic life, it's the final hurdle that you need to overcome to achieve Epic status.


I agree. Especially as a VIP with a greater xp tome I RARELY drink xp pots for my third life. I will do a bit of xp farming in maybe 6 quests, but I enjoy those quests and compared to hardcore TR-Train players what I do is more akin to berry picking than farming.




If they keep Heroic TR as it is without affecting your ED XP in any way, then it is crystal clear to people that if they choose to Epic TR for whatever reason they will lose ED XP in anything that's not bonded. This makes it a simple choice for people:
(a) If you want to lose your Heroic XP and Epic XP but keep your ED XP and gain a Heroic Past Life, then you should Heroic TR.
(b) If you want to lose your Heroic XP, Epic XP and ED XP but gain an ED Past Life or TR into an Iconic Hero then you should Epic TR.

It's the lack of choice in retaining your ED XP that I see as the problem.


To be honest I only see this as a problem for folks who maxed out their EDs and still want the +2 from the ETR (or do you also get another fate point per ETR?).

[WruntJunior]

Between all of my characters that need TRs (TRing is still necessary to update your character to the new game, after all...and god I feel sorry for any completionists), this change will cost me roughly 50mil ED XP right off the bat - and probably require multiple times that just to get my EDs up to acceptable levels again. This change feels extremely over-punishing to the powergaming community, and personally, if things stay this way (where a TR will wipe my ED XP except for bonded destinies, which means it'd take me at LEAST 11 TRs to re-max my EDs), I feel like we're being driven away.

Over the past couple months I've had my desire to play lessened, especially since u18 and its complete borking of half my main characters...a change like this would remove all of my motivation to play, and most likely I will not be inclined to renew my subscription next May when it is up. I'm just really happy now I didn't jump on buying the expansion and instead waited a bit to see what was in it.

[Postumus]

Yes, you missed a point. EDs will get reset with HEROIC TR as well.

That's what we're raging about.


I didn't miss it. I addressed that in my post above the one you responded to. While I don't agree with the design decision per se, if this is implemented I'd simply choose not to HTR my characters with lots of EDs rather than quit playing.

[Enoach]

I would sure like more information and clarification on Epic Advantage.

Based upon what I'm reading a character the does a Heroic TR but has all 11 EDs at Level 5 would in theory get an 11 Level Advantage (5 ranks per level)

When do those extra levels kick in? At creation? (which would be Trading 16.5 million Epic XP for 1,174,500 Heroic XP) or will this be in the form of Stone(s) [i.e. stones broken out as single levels or stones broken out by ED potentially giving them different values] which can be employed at any time by a character

If implemented as multiple stones it would open up their use again at Epic Levels allowing us to recoup ED XP for some of the Epic Destinies. Which would also potentially allow the Ottos box stone 8 to 15 Jump to still be valuable.

Next on the Bonded EDs, do we still get Epic Advantage for these? I ask because it appears to me we get to keep the ED XP for bonded, but it was not clear if they will still count towards Epic Advantage.

Next How will bonded EDs effect ED starting points. Example I start in the Divine sphere on US, but move and Max out LD and do the steps to Bond LD, when I TR and Loose all of the ED XP that is not bonded will I have both US, LD and SC as options to select as an Active Epic Destiny?

[Teh_Troll]

I didn't miss it. I addressed that in my post above the one you responded to. While I don't agree with the design decision per se, if this is implemented I'd simply choose not to HTR my characters with lots of EDs rather than quit playing.

That's my plan as well, but I LIKE TRing for the heck of it and don't want that option taken away.

If a change to a feature is so bad the only recourse is to not use it . . . that change needs to not be implemented.

Have Heroic TR not touch EDs and I don't think anyone else will care about any of the other changes.

[Grosbeak07]

Basically there is not enough information here to make a really informed decision if this is bad or not.

We just don't have enough details.

Losing ED xp is bad.. unless I'm getting something awesome in return.

Heroic TR should not be touched at all.

Basically we have a dev post with few details (more generalities) followed by 22 pages of player speculation.

I won't get worried until the stuff hits Lamannia. Then it will become real!

[Teh_Troll]

Basically there is not enough information here to make a really informed decision if this is bad or not.

yes there is. it's black and white, we lose ED XP on heroic TR.

That needs to change, but as things are there is enough information for this to be horrible.

[Drwaz99]

Not too sure what this might mean, but Glin post this on twitter yesterday. My interpretation is that they haven't gone past the brain storming stage yet (ha! like they think things thru as of late). I have a sneaky suspicion that this was used to drum up a ton of attention and bring people to the forums and is a long way off if it indeed has not gone into development yet.


Erik DDO ?@producerglin 13h

There's a ton of detail in the proposed ETR that will be realized over time. The only fettered detail is development is not started.

[Coyopa]

yes there is. it's black and white, we lose ED XP on heroic TR.

That needs to change, but as things are there is enough information for this to be horrible.

This is absolutely correct. Also, Teh_Troll's previous post wherein he speculates that if heroic TR does not impact epic destiny experience that people will calm down is also true for nearly 100% of the people here. I know it is for me. Leave me the option to leave my destiny experience in tact *and still* be able to TR back to level 1 on occasion and I will be happy to continue playing, continue paying, and continue enjoying the characters I have invested so much time and effort into.

Let me choose when and if my epic destiny experience gets wiped. That is all I ask. Then, the people who want to participate in the new system can do so. I may even eventually want to participate, but let me choose when or if I do. The same as you did with the new augment system. You didn't take away my hard-won augments from before the new system. Why would you take away my hard-won destiny progress?

[Postumus]

Well, fair enough.

I've always played this game - both MMO and P&P versions - for sheer entertainment. "Winning", however it is defined, has never really been a goal for me. The elation it provides is fleeting and mostly ephemeral considering there is no discernible completion point. I take pleasure from little victories along the way. If there was a definitive ending, I'd lose the opportunity to do that.

To each, his own.

Thank you for the candid response.


I also play for sheer entertainment (like all games I play), and for me progression is a key component of that entertainment. That's why when the cap was 20, I'd just TR rather than grind end loot to play 'end game' to grind end loot. Gear acquisition is not progression to me.


In many ways, ED acquisition feels like gear acquisition to me. Unlock more EDs to play EE content to acquire EE gear... bleah. Once I hit 25 I am ITCHING to TR. I have only two characters who I have left at 25 for more than a couple of weeks: my crafter, and my monk. My monk is the only character I have where I have unlocked more than 5 EDs.


So for players like me, I really don't see these changes being an issue. For maxers and end-game-grinders, I can see why they would be upset, because to increase their power they have to take a big step backwards and re-grind a lot of stuff.

[GauArrowny]

I read through Glin's summary yesterday. It seems I misread things but now that I have a fresh mind and several people have clarified the specifics. At first I thought it might have been a typo but it seems now that it wasn't.

First of all, I completely disagree with heroic TR affecting ANY of the destinies. Like now, you get to keep all destiny xp intact when doing a TR. Similar to you keep crafting levels. It's way too much of a grind to forfeit millions of xp to get compensated with approximately 1 million maximum. It doesn't even get you up to where leveling even gets difficult. I understand you'll be making adjustments but we've yet to see what those look like. Heroic should remain heroic and not affect anything epic.

With regards to ED TR, I find forfeiting your ED xp again not a feasible option. I would not care to level any more than one destiny before TR'ing. With an ED TR, I would think I would be forfeiting one destiny to earn a past life feat for that destiny, not forfeiting unrelated destinies. Starting back at level 1 I can accept. I'd rather start at level 1 rather than giving up the 3 destinies I've maxed to get level 4. Just not worth it. If this goes ahead, I might as well stay in my main destiny and ignore getting twists at all just in case I do a TR after the expansion.

Another thing about the Epic 'Dis-advantage' is it makes fore more unequal-ness with TR trains. Some people may grind out a few destinies when they cap, some may not. Then when they TR they'll not start at the same level. Yes they may have the option to bank levels until their friends catch up but they lose all their ED xp for nothing. Also, as a personal example, my wife is VIP. I am premium. I generally play more often and have more toons to compensate so we can stay relatively equal for levels. Now that we've capped, her xp bonus is getting her ED's filled quicker. We'll be TR'ing in the upcoming months. If we wait too long, she'll be several levels ahead of me with me struggling to keep up. It's just not in my best interest to wait to TR or even TR again after the expansion.

[Postumus]

Not too sure what this might mean, but Glin post this on twitter yesterday. My interpretation is that they haven't gone past the brain storming stage yet (ha! like they think things thru as of late). I have a sneaky suspicion that this was used to drum up a ton of attention and bring people to the forums and is a long way off if it indeed has not gone into development yet.


Good post. I think a key thing to remember here, and it is something they mentioned on DDOCast this week, is that this proposed changes isn't even scheduled to be addressed in 2013.


So the threats to quit and doooooom responses are extremely pre-mature. And according to a good 1/4 of the posters in this thread, DDO isn't even supposed to make it that long, so no worries, right?

[CaptainSpacePony]

I like to TR. I TR to try different styles of play and learn other aspects of the game. So I've maxed all the Destinies, when I turn, I gain 55 Heroic ranks, or starting at level 11. That's pretty darned deep in the learning curve. This is a bad idea, because, depriving me of those learning experiences early on means that I can really make a complete futz of my build. People expect you to have some idea of what you're doing by that level.

Proposed Solution: Turn "Heroic Advantage" into an experience stone worth 1 million experience, bound to character, usable any time between level 1 and level X. Please don't deprive us of the early learning opportunities.

Was anyone complaining about the TR system? Other than allowing iconics to participate and the lack of good experience quests toward the end?


I the XP Stone proposal is brilliant.

Yes, I and others were complaining. The TR system has been completely out of synch with the end game since the cap was raised to 25.

[Teh_Troll]

So the threats to quit and doooooom responses are extremely pre-mature. And according to a good 1/4 of the posters in this thread, DDO isn't even supposed to make it that long, so no worries, right?

This is not pre-mature d00m at all. The proposal of losing ED XP on Heroic TR is that bad.

I'd like this game not to fold because it's still a heck of a lot of fun, this change going through will not help that.

Will a change make the game stronger, more fun, and more likely to retain old players and new ones? if so it is a good change.

What's proposed is not a good change.

[Ancient]

At 22 pages, my reply/feedback is likely to be lost in the bit bucket... but here goes:

I'm not crazy about the system, but some of my biggest complaints aren't about the system directly... as much as it is about the way the changes will magnify problems in other areas of the game.

1. Playing in the "wrong" destiny is not fun. This system multiplies the length of time spent in "wrong" destinies.
2. TR is currently the only way to change race. I have a 2nd life NovaSoul FVS who I maxed out all destinies on. If I don't get the 3rd TR before this goes live, its gone. If I ever want to change race, its gone. How many times do I have to beg for a simple race reinc?
3. 18-20 is too much exp. I know the uber TR train can do it in no time, but the higher my characters get into the teens... the less fun it is. Then all of a sudden at level 20 it gets fun again. I understand that iconic's + loads of ED could get past this, but until there are more choices on iconic's race/class.... its a very narrow answer.

As for the rest, I'll wait to see it on the test server.

[Postumus]

First of all, I completely disagree with heroic TR affecting ANY of the destinies. Like now, you get to keep all destiny xp intact when doing a TR. Similar to you keep crafting levels. It's way too much of a grind to forfeit millions of xp to get compensated with approximately 1 million maximum. It doesn't even get you up to where leveling even gets difficult. I understand you'll be making adjustments but we've yet to see what those look like. Heroic should remain heroic and not affect anything epic.


At first blush, and on only one cup of coffee, I agree. I'm sure some clever players will find a way to exploit this, but for right now I agree and think HTRs should not affect earned EDs.




With regards to ED TR, I find forfeiting your ED xp again not a feasible option. I would not care to level any more than one destiny before TR'ing. With an ED TR, I would think I would be forfeiting one destiny to earn a past life feat for that destiny, not forfeiting unrelated destinies. Starting back at level 1 I can accept. I'd rather start at level 1 rather than giving up the 3 destinies I've maxed to get level 4. Just not worth it. If this goes ahead, I might as well stay in my main destiny and ignore getting twists at all just in case I do a TR after the expansion.


I'm beginning to think not resetting EDs for an ETR but getting the increased power of ETRing is having your cake and eating it too. If EDs don't get reset for an ETR, then Turbine basically hands over more power to the most powerful characters in the game without making them earn it. You already maxed your EDs? Well here's another +2 build points and some extra fate points for you! I don't think that is a good idea.


I think EDs should reset for an ETR, but maybe as another poster suggested, you get to lock in an additional ED per ETR.

[zwiebelring]

Really Turbine? More grind? Even more? I give a tiny rats ass about heroic rank convertion, the whole rince-repeat mechanic is flawed inherently, because of the 'repeat'.

Thank you, I don't have to bother TRing any further. Sounds like I have to decide what final life I want right now.

Ihr seid so blöd wie 3 Reihen Salat. Use google translator, it roughly means 'I love you' if you are too lazy for that.

[knightgf]

After reading about how many players are worried about losing all their epic destiny XP, I have a rather interesting idea:

Rather than losing ALL except one epic destiny XP, the epic destiny sphere that you have currently active will be preserved for all future TR's. This will help mitigate the epic destiny experience lost somewhat. In addition, all epic destinies unlocked with keys of destiny will also be kept for all future TR's; you can even use the keys on currently unlocked epic destinies to preserve them for future TR's!

Thoughts?

[Postumus]

This is not pre-mature d00m at all. The proposal of losing ED XP on Heroic TR is that bad.




Freaking out over a PROPOSED change that is probably a year out, and for one where the dev has actually requested feedback on the proposal (basically doing what everyone on the forums keeps asking for - requesting player feedback), is the definition of premature.

[Teh_Troll]

Freaking out over a PROPOSED change that is probably a year out, and for one where the dev has actually requested feedback on the proposal (basically doing what everyone on the forums keeps asking for - requesting player feedback), is the definition of premature.

Update 20 is not a year out when Update 19 is due in August.

Turbine only responds to torches and pitchforks. Lynch early and lynch often.

Turbine need to think this proposal will cost them money, its the only thing that drives their decisions.

Seriously, your faith in them is baffling.

[toaftoaf]

stop thinkig of our game while youget high, Dont mix drugs and work

[Postumus]

Ok, I think this could work IF ALL OF THE ITEMS BELOW were implemented:

- you grandfathered out all the old grinding by saying that any maxed out ED as of the day U20 hits is automatically bonded
- unbonded unlocked EDs stay unlocked, even if all the XP itself is lost
- fate points are not lost on
TR or ETR


If you are talking about HTRing, then yes. If you are talking about ETRing then NO FREAKING WAY. If someone wants the additional advantages that come with ETRing, he should have to re-start from zero - just like heroic TRing is now.

Maybe allowing the fate points to stay unlocked wouldn't be too OP for ETR.

[Coyopa]

Good post. I think a key thing to remember here, and it is something they mentioned on DDOCast this week, is that this proposed changes isn't even scheduled to be addressed in 2013.


So the threats to quit and doooooom responses are extremely pre-mature. And according to a good 1/4 of the posters in this thread, DDO isn't even supposed to make it that long, so no worries, right?

This is not premature in the least!


Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation.

So, it's all fine they put that information in the DDOCast, but some people (like me) do not watch/listen to the DDOCast and, even if I had, I would have taken this information over that because they wrote it here. However, I will admit I would have questioned which information was correct: the DDOCast or the quote above.

[Permian]

How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:

Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds **GREAT**

Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats) **Absolutely not, they're not included now and shouldn't be anyway, that just makes no sense at all and provides very little incentive or logic as to why anyone would ever bother in the first place to TR in the first place. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!**

Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR) **Meh. Again, integrating the Epic destiny system into heroic and epic XP is enormously wrong. Do you people go around punching baby kobolds in your spare time just for kicks?**

Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind **Yes, the XP curve needs a little adjustment already and heaven forbid what it would look like down the road if the level cap continues. That is, unless your planning on doubling or tripling the number of staff pumping out high level content. Not likely.**

Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats) **Yes, I couldn't agree more with this and thought this was a missive when they were introduced.**

Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics) **Ummm, sure I guess. This would open some alternate routes for builds.**

How does this system look in practice?

**Awful, horrible, morally wrong, akin to stealing time and money and don’t give me that “you signed the agreements” nonsense. I honestly believe that a high level bean counter solely came up with this system with only money in mind and nothing else at all. There is no way that a dev or any number of devs came up with this trainwreck. As far as I know they all play the game too and no one who plays this game would even dream of implementing this system….unless they were creating ideas based purely on making money and totally shafting their community.
I deleted all of the example info because it has FAIL written all over it and smacks of "Eff you customers! Gimme yer stinkin' money and shut up!!" I can't say thank you enough for warning us of this impending doom and now I know why one of my guild mates disappeared as he's probably sucking his thumb and crying for mommy in a corner of his house after reading this. I have a lot of toons, one of which is a completionist. He has 3 accounts and over a dozen completionist toons all with cap’ d destinies. It's a huge sense of accomplishment to finish a completionist much less dozens of them. The time and money investment is enough to make some folks hurl at the thought.

You sold us this as an option and now you want to completely change the rules, which you can, but for the love of Jesus Christopher Allen Christ of DDO please listen to the rants on this one and don't shaft the community like this. I believe 100% that you can implement a working TR system but it can't be one that includes resetting all destiny XP. Someone else already said it in another post; they're already separate so why combine them and complicate things and shaft a whole lot of people. We're all addicts of this game in the casual and power gamer sense but this whole idea of resetting all destiny XP is….I’ve ranted enough already; don’t even have the energy to continue.**

Iconic True Reincarnation

That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy) **Yay that's nice.**

Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x **OK**

Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build **OK**

Earns ranks from Epic Advantage **OK**

Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days. **What took so long? We needed that ages ago.**

Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives. **Already overdue.**

Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation. **OK. I honestly don't know anyone that has ever greater reincarnated.**

Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate **Makes sense.**

We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future....

**Please throttle back the "eager" until all of you really think about this new system and what it means well into the future of DDO. I'm sure I'll be playing for a long time but I've already lost a huge amount of interest in playing as much as I used to due to the re-gearing and exploring new content. It turns in to a more work-like feeling to do all of that and I don't want to feel like that when I'm gettin' my fix, ya know?

I appreciate the opportunity to respond and can't thank you enough for allowing the community to at least have a voice. This is life altering change for some folks here and change doesn't sit well with everyone no matter how good or bad. I'm more of a casual gamer at this point as stated earlier, along with the reason, but I can truly understand the outcries of some folks. Anyone who feels that these folks are wrong for voicing their opinion, should have their own responses deleted and feel what it feels like to not have a voice imo.**

[Cordovan]

Please folks, feel free to express your opinions, but fighting each other and flinging insults and name-calling is not necessary.

[Silverleafeon]

I would rather have the devs tells us what they might think to do early, then after lots of work has been done.
Thank you, provided you listen and adjust your plans.

[Grosbeak07]

I would rather have the devs tells us what they might think to do early, then after lots of work has been done.
Thank you, provided you listen and adjust your plans.

Its all we can ask for.

[sebastianosmith]

stop thinkig of our game while youget high, Dont mix drugs and work


To toke, or not to toke: that is the question:
Whether 'tis freakier in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous reality,
Or to take arms against a sea of bubbles,
And by inhaling end them? To smoke: to sleep;
No! More; and by a sleep to say we waste
The dank and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consumption
Devoutly to be wish'd. To smoke, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the nug;
For in that sleep of dank what dreams may come
When we have finished off this burning bowl,
Must give us pause: there's the rub
That makes calamity of so sticky bud;
For who would bear the burns and runners of joints,
The roller's wrong, the baked man's contumely,
The pangs of despised seeds, the law's scorn,
The insolence of fish lipping and the spurns
That patient merit of the borgarting breaks,
When he himself might his pipe make
With a TP roll? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under the passing shake,
But that the dread of something after kiff,
The undiscover'd resin from whose stem
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those hits we have
Than puff others that we know not of?
Thus scrapping does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of ebony
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of lighter,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their exhales turn awry,
And lose the name of ganja. - Soft you now!
The fair Mary Jane! Weed, in thy orisons
Be all my spliffs remember'd.

[Cordovan]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

[Daemoneyes]

Please folks, feel free to express your opinions, but fighting each other and flinging insults and name-calling is not necessary.

After such a disgusting game design decision you should be happy that flinging and calling is all you get.
The whole last 6 months i played and prepared my chars are for nothing, wasted time.
And hell i wasnt even with all my chars in the ED i wanted nor had i unlocked enough points for the twists.
ED grind is made horrible (oh such fun with my Fighter in Magister.. or my Wiz in Dreadnougt...) and you just spit in our face with this design.

In my eyes you Devs/Designers lost all credit, this is so far removed from your playerbase you could sit on Alpha Centauri...

[oradafu]

All the 'killing the game' and 'I'll quit for real' noise aside, I have a few questions regarding how the proposed TR changes appear to work.


HEROIC TRing (HTR):


1-Assuming I understood what was written in the OP (always a long shot), it sounds like if I don't care about epic EDs and I TR my character immediately upon L20, then I won't even notice a change to HTRing?

2- If I max one epic destiny and 'lock in' before TRing, it sounds like I get to keep that ED every time I HTR? So like now, but I only get to keep one ED instead of however many I've unlocked.



EPIC TRing (ETR):


1- Theoretically, if I wanted a 38 point build, can't I just HTR three times, then ETR once? That only requires me to max two ED trees for my ETR right? Wouldn't I just do that before maxing out the rest of my EDs? That way I would only have to repeat one ED (presumably a fun one that I enjoy) one time and still get a 38 point build?

Regarding HTR 1:

Yes, if you don't have any advancement in EDs at all or if you don't care about EDs at all, then you won't notice any change to HTR. However, if you have even 1 XP invested in Epic Destinies, it will be wiped when you TR, no matter what type of TR that you decide to do.

Regarding HTR 2:

It does not appear that you can bond with any ED unless you do an Epic TR. If you notice in Glin's post, it states that the bonding process is is under the Epic TR section called Karmaic Bond. It is not part of the HTR section. Epic Advantage (starting at a certain rank depending on your ED progress) will happen for HTRs, but bonding to EDs appears to be strictly for Epic TRs.

Regarding Epic TR 1:

What you are describing would be all fine and good if it was proposed a year ago when Epic Desinties were originally released or shortly after their release. But it's been a year of people grinding out EDs because we were told way back when EDs were added that the ED XP progress would not wipe when we TR. In fact, there were several patches to prevent ED XP wiping and restoration for players that did get it wiped. So the rules of the game will have been changed a year later (or if you really believe these changes won't happen until next year, then a year and a half later to two years), which doesn't sit well at all for many players that any sort of advanced ED progress in the game.

As far as having two maxed EDs to Epic TR, that's what Glin said... However, Dev Piloto stated a few hours later that only one maxed ED is needed.

[FalseFlag]

Turbine, please stop hiring people to work on this game that don't actually like this game and instead want to turn it into something else. Thanks much.


No more dumbing down this game so everyone can feel special.
Stop using words and phrases that you don't understand. It makes you look ignorant.

Enough spam.
And the same for you also. Words mean things. Use them correctly please. Thanks.

Playing DDO with Turbine is like playing DnD with a new DM every six months. I may not like how the new DM rules on certain things, but I adapt and keep playing.
Except that is really stupid, and I question the intelligence of someone who does that (i.e., you). If the new DM is ****, it is stupid to keep playing with him. As they say, no gaming is better than bad gaming.

The proposed changes are bad. If you disagree, that just means your opinion is worthless. The proposed changes remove incentive to run characters after 20. I'm not going to TR a character if I'm going to lose all of that extra time invested in epic XP. At the same time, I'm not going to cap any characters to 28 because I have no faith in your ability to deliver engaging, fun epic content (based on Epic content you have delivered thus far, which, frankly, sucks).

So what's going to happen is that my Epic characters are going to sit around being unplayed, while I play my Heroic characters. And as I level each of those (very few at this point) to 20, they will end up being unplayed also, because why keep playing them in poor content if I'm just going to get screwed in the end? I'm not going to buy new character slots because at this point, you clearly don't deserve my money, so eventually I wont' have any characters left to play.

At that point, I'll find a different game to play or other hobby in which to engage.

If you are dead set on wiping Epic XP for Heroic TRs, the only way you can do that without eventually losing me as a player is as follows:

1. I keep my Fate Points.
2. You add many more twist slots.
3. Past life feats based on Epic Destinies are equal in power to a Level 0 Epic Destiny ability.
4. Every 2 Epic Destiny levels I earned translates into a +1 Heroic level on my TR.
5. Every Epic Destiny I max out earns me a Stone of Experience for the TR character.
6. You learn how to properly apply XP to a quest.

But even that would not change the fact that this is a terrible, backwards-thinking idea that should be scrapped right here and right now.

[Drwaz99]

and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

Past and present experiences have given us little to no confidence that you (Turbine) listen and adjust accordingly based upon our feedback.

[bbcjoke]

I have two things to comment on this, devs.

1) Please refrain from making heroic TR wipe out ED xp. A lot of people enjoy heroic TR and only use the epic levels to gather twelve tokens. Taking out their pre-stored epic destinies levels would only lessen their fun. Also, it would be unfair for those who still haven't done all the heroic TR they want to change the rules in the middle of the game.

2) Please let us keep our twist of fate points over our Epic TRs. I believe losing them is the major factor of frustation people are having. We don't really like losing our tomes, you know.

[Gljosh]

I tried to read though most of this, but there is ALOT of information in here.
I like the idea of more Past Life Feats, hopefully these are truly worth the sacrifice. Plus, the Iconic TRing sound great, I don';t own Warforged but I have Bladeforged.
Epic Advantage-Converts Epic Levels to Heroic Ranks, thus a maxed out non-karmic bond Epic would give 10 (Destinies) X 5 Level so 50 ranks making your character a level 8. So 15,000,000 XP gives you 523,700 xp...unless I am reading that wrong. That seems WAY to rough. I like the idea of more Past Life Feats, but I don't want to lose every bit of the EDs I have worked on. Starting from Exalted Angel and going to Shiradi (pretty much maxing along the way) takes sometime when you are a casual gamer. I guess I will Karmic Bond GMoF and make Monk builds so I can TR. Also, with the ED wipe what happens to Twist Points?

[UurlockYgmeov]

Well, after grinding renown just to tread water, spending countless amount of time helping to administer a guild because of the lack of guild management tools (and the ones we have are stone-age tools)

AND

after having to relog into the website for the countless time....

I have only time and energy for one comment (before the website logs me out again)

ED TR should be optional - so if you don't want to loose all those destinies - you have the choice to not gain the benefits of the ED TR, but also don't loose the ED.

SMOOTH XP curve from 1-20 and then from 21-whatever (Heck yeah)

oh - so that was two comments, hope when I press submit I don't get the log in screen.

[Aussir]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
Like the way they re-worked the enhancement pass and implemented all the stupid ideas we said were bad?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Pull the other one... :mad:

[CaptainSpacePony]

The proposed changes are bad. If you disagree, that just means your opinion is worthless.

While I sympathize with your discontent, IMWO, the solutions you propose are too much. For example, I have more ED levels than there are heroic levels. Who would that work?

[Towrn]

I just do not have the time to read every single post in this thread, but I have read many and all of the dev posts.

I am a TRaholic. I plan on doing epic Trs, but the ways in which it sounds like you plan on implementing it (for now) sound a little counterproductive.

In one post you said that you plan on reworking the exp curve(unless I read horribly wrong) and later in the same post you said that Epic TRing would wipe out all ED exp except the ED that you bonded(again, unless I am way off base)

The idea that seems to make the most sense to me, so far, is this:

Player X is lvl 28 and has all ED's fully maxed out.
Player X Epic Trs with Fury of the Wild ED active.
Player X becomes lvl 1 (not 100% I am reading the ED ranks transferring to Heroic ranks correctly)
Player X has Fury of the Wild exp reset to 0 and the other 10 ED's exp remain unchanged.
Player X now benefits from the Fury of the Wild Epic Past Life but has to re-level the Fury of the Wild ED after re-leveling to 20.

In addition, since Player X is not losing all exp in all EDs, Player X only loses the 1-2 Fate points from losing the 5 levels of Fury of the Wild.

This seems fair. There is still a lot of exp that will be needed to be gained so it is not a day or two of grinding to finish, but it will also not waste all of the time players spent grinding thier EDs up.

Just my 2 cents.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).

I think the main sticking point here is for the people that went ahead and (using the current system as designed) maxed out all of their epic destinies.

We (I'll include myself in this group) did this, by some horrendously tedious xp grinding, knowing that once we put the time and effort into doing it, we'd never have to do it again. 16.5 million xp, at a minimum. It sucked.

We put up with lousy destinies for the character we were playing (My sorc really gets nothing out of shadowdancer. Or dreadnought. Or a large variety of other epic destinies), so that we could get them done, and with the system in place, we'd never have to go back to them.

I understand that there were some unsanctioned "shortcuts" that people were using to sidestep the "having to progress through an off destiny to earn fate points", but if you put in a system where you are going to arbitrarily wipe out all current destiny progress except for the one "bonded" destiny, you are going to alienate those people. A lot. And by "those people", I mean me. And a fair chunk of the people I run with. I can't claim to speak for "everyone", and I won't try to.

Whatever you come up with at this point, needs to take into account the existing players that have already put weeks and months into getting their characters done.

For new characters going forward, no problem. I can see that the system will be much easier and less grindy.

I'd suggest some type of token system when the update hits, that will serve as a one time unlock for each of the destinies that have already been done. So someone with 11 destinies at level five, would have 11 tokens that they could use after reincarnating, to preserve the time and effort that has already been done. Make em a min level 20, and do it for existing characters a week or two before the update hits. Or a month or two. But something.

[Coyopa]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

If this is true (and it appears it probably is), then your producers should not come on here and say "Hey, look! We're planning to hose you by year's end!" - because that is exactly what Glin did. S/He said this was going to be released later this year, which means this has been in the works and is not "far in advance of its implementation". Get your facts straight within your company, have your talking points well-defined, and make sure your spokespeople know the talking points and stick to them and THEN start a dialogue with your customers.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.Cordovan, when Glin posted the OP yesterday, the remarks people made were putting the cart before the horse. THANKS for reminding posters that "the team" is asking for input, and they are in the planning stage.Some people have posted some decent feedback, and I for one would like to see more.

[Thrudh]

Here's the million-dollar question for me: will losing ED xp result in loss of unlocked twist slots? If I get to keep all fate points (or potentially earn even more than the current max) by re-leveling destinies, I might consider it. That potentially cuts out a *lot* of the re-grind; usually only two or three of the EDs are ones I *actually* care about; all the others I'm leveling (and being annoyed about being in, most of the time) purely to generate fate points for twists.

This.

If we can keep all our fate points, AND they get rid of the ED map (where you have to have 3-4 ranks in an useless destiny to unlock a destiny you do want), then I might be for this.

This is a chance to fix the ED system... I don't mind losing all the grind I've already done if I can keep the fate points, and my twist slots and can level in any ED I want. Because then I can just relevel the 3-5 EDs I'm interested in (and have fun playing while doing it) instead of wasting time getting magister ranks on my fighter to unlock twists...

If we have to re-grind the fate points again, wasting time AGAIN in EDs that suck for our character, then I agree the proposed system is terrible.

[Thrudh]

You know, supposing the ED PL are decent, I'm ok with this change if i can keep my fate points!

Seriously, the fate points are the main reason we grinded out all those ED, otherwise only a handful are actually useful per toon. If I were to lose most of my ED, but keep all my fate points, I'd be really looking forward to this change.

Me too.

[oradafu]

I think the main sticking point here is for the people that went ahead and (using the current system as designed) maxed out all of their epic destinies.

We (I'll include myself in this group) did this, by some horrendously tedious xp grinding, knowing that once we put the time and effort into doing it, we'd never have to do it again. 16.5 million xp, at a minimum. It sucked.

We put up with lousy destinies for the character we were playing (My sorc really gets nothing out of shadowdancer. Or dreadnought. Or a large variety of other epic destinies), so that we could get them done, and with the system in place, we'd never have to go back to them.

I understand that there were some unsanctioned "shortcuts" that people were using to sidestep the "having to progress through an off destiny to earn fate points", but if you put in a system where you are going to arbitrarily wipe out all current destiny progress except for the one "bonded" destiny, you are going to alienate those people. A lot. And by "those people", I mean me. And a fair chunk of the people I run with. I can't claim to speak for "everyone", and I won't try to.

Whatever you come up with at this point, needs to take into account the existing players that have already put weeks and months into getting their characters done.

For new characters going forward, no problem. I can see that the system will be much easier and less grindy.

I'd suggest some type of token system when the update hits, that will serve as a one time unlock for each of the destinies that have already been done. So someone with 11 destinies at level five, would have 11 tokens that they could use after reincarnating, to preserve the time and effort that has already been done. Make em a min level 25, and do it for existing characters a week or two before the update hits. Or a month or two. But something.

It's not just players who capped all their EDs. It's players who have invested ANY amount of time in the EDs. I'll use myself as an example. I have three characters that have ground out some EDs. Each one has only capped out a single ED, but each one has invested anywhere from 1 bubble to 5 tiers in other EDs. I will get just as penalized as a maxed ED players if there is a wipe when I TR. I hated several of those EDs and that's why I didn't invest more time in some than I needed to advance into a different sphere (looking at you GMoF).

So what you are proposing would be just as big slap in the face to me as it would be to wipe all the ED XP for everyone. The best solution, I shall repeat, is to erase the Epic Level XP when you TR while keeping the ED XP, but players must choose the ED to bond with to gain the TR perks for that life. Everyone will be roughly on the same footing. Everyone will need to TR the same amount of TRs to become a completionist. No one will lose anything.

[redspecter23]

I think the main sticking point here is for the people that went ahead and (using the current system as designed) maxed out all of their epic destinies.

We (I'll include myself in this group) did this, by some horrendously tedious xp grinding, knowing that once we put the time and effort into doing it, we'd never have to do it again. 16.5 million xp, at a minimum. It sucked.

We put up with lousy destinies for the character we were playing (My sorc really gets nothing out of shadowdancer. Or dreadnought. Or a large variety of other epic destinies), so that we could get them done, and with the system in place, we'd never have to go back to them.

I understand that there were some unsanctioned "shortcuts" that people were using to sidestep the "having to progress through an off destiny to earn fate points", but if you put in a system where you are going to arbitrarily wipe out all current destiny progress except for the one "bonded" destiny, you are going to alienate those people. A lot. And by "those people", I mean me. And a fair chunk of the people I run with. I can't claim to speak for "everyone", and I won't try to.

Whatever you come up with at this point, needs to take into account the existing players that have already put weeks and months into getting their characters done.

For new characters going forward, no problem. I can see that the system will be much easier and less grindy.

I'd suggest some type of token system when the update hits, that will serve as a one time unlock for each of the destinies that have already been done. So someone with 11 destinies at level five, would have 11 tokens that they could use after reincarnating, to preserve the time and effort that has already been done. Make em a min level 25, and do it for existing characters a week or two before the update hits. Or a month or two. But something.

I have to agree with the message here. Players were under the assumption that destinies would be leveled once and that's it. We got used to that. It was "normal" and expected for players. The devs even went so far as to put in place safety measures for players that did unintentionally lose epic destiny xp during a TR. Now, that all changes. If we wish to participate in heroic TR like we used to, we are being punished (relatively speaking of course. We are worse off than we were if we TR'ed 6 months earlier). You are taking away something we never expected to lose. Not only is it poor form, but it also sets a horrible precedent. Any achievement in game that we think is sacred can be stripped away, nerfed or proxy nerfed on a whim. You cannot remove player faith in the game and mechanics. It's what we need to keep the desire to advance our characters. Why advance (grind) when it may be all for nothing at any given time? We need mechanical stability in the game. Stripping destinies upon heroic TR is the same as stripping away the mechanical stability of the game. If the game mechanics are ever changing, then our goals are ever changing as well. It's hard to set long term goals when you have no faith that goal will be worth pursuing in the future.

Now there are certain aspects of the game that break this rule. We know that new loot will obsolete old loot eventually. However, this is a known factor. We play knowing this will happen. It's unfortunate that we have old underused loot, but there are no player illusions that this loot was ever going to be endgame forever. Epic TR also falls under this category. It's a completely new mechanic. I may not like the destiny wipe that is associated with an epic TR, but it doesn't break anything that was previously in place. It lives in its own mechanical bubble and I can take it or leave it. Discussion of epic TR is obviously important, but in the end it doesn't effect my game mechanic confidence the way that changing how heroic TR works.

Please do not wipe destiny xp on heroic TR. Don't change something that was already working fine to suit your whimsical needs and shake player confidence in the process. Nobody wins.

[Candela90]

Well... Ill say how I see it.
Im glad devs posted it in here before implementing and hope theyll read our opinions and adjust changes.
Few important matters for me.

1. This is EPIC TR - I was really hoping I wouldnt be put on lvl 1 again... (yeah yeah.. Destiny ranks... so lets say 12 or Iconic 15 lvl). Id like Epic TR to be 20-28 only. What Im asking for is:
a) Leave Heroic TR with no ED loss, as 1-20 TR.
b) Implement Epic TR as 28 to 20 drop with EDs loss and Epic Advantage.
Honestly - people who HAVE completionist and already ran probably like 20 times on 1 character 1-20 lvls are not going to be happy to have to do it again.
And for most playerbase - like me - even with tomes and pots and bravery doing heroic completionist is a looong grind. I mean - I play like medium 3-4 hours a day (which is more like 9 in weekend and a lot less other days... but medium is 3-4. My 1 TR 1-20 - not alone - with at least 1 friend who has time always when I do - on BB, and 10% pot being on all time and 30% pot on shadow crypt, litania and wizzking - this TR takes me around 2 months to complete. Its a lot of time.
Also - I TRed like 6 times (I play over 2 years now) and honestly - I really dont want to go thro the same again and again and again.
I really like the idea of Epic TR putting us at 20. Even if it means loss my grinded out EDs. But Id like some advantage over ppl who did not grind them out. Maybe lets put these in epic ranks too? So some ppl can start at lvl 24 already.

2. Loose of EDs.
Ok, I get it, its ETR and all... I may agree to loosing my EDs if like above:
ETR puts you on 20 and all destinies besides the bound one are giving you ranks to 20+.

3. Fate points:
This needs to be resolved - loosing them all after grinding them out wouldnt be cool...Maybe leave them as they are with max cap.
I have one idea.... You may resign from fate points from your non-bound destiny to be able to put XP in one destiny, but play in your main one.




Summary - my vision of Epic True Reincarnation:
You loose all EDs besides the bound ones - when you ETR your active destiny becomes bound.
You land on lvl 20 and all xp from non-bound destinies are given you back to your 20+ lvl.
Also after every TR for each ED you gain some past life or however to call it.
You dont loose your fate points - but you cant get more than X. You have an option to resign from all your fate points from unbound destinies which gives u ability to be in your main picked destiny and earn xp for another one.
Thats all.

Heroic TR stays as it is - with no touch to EDs.

[grausherra]

With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)


This seems backwards, shouldn't we only lose the 1 ED that we have maxed and active when we ETR?

If you want to reward us for the work, rather than punish us, do this:

"When you Epic TR you must have 1 active, non-bonded, max level ED. This ED is bonded and reset(but still unlocked!) and you get it's past ED feat. No other ED is touched, but fate points ARE lost for the ED that is reset. Upon reincarnation you receive exp enough for 7 bonus levels(or 3 for an iconic)."

Also, if you go forwards with this backwards notion you initially proposed what are you going to with those of us who bought keys of fate?

[Postumus]

I think the main sticking point here is for the people that went ahead and (using the current system as designed) maxed out all of their epic destinies.

We (I'll include myself in this group) did this, by some horrendously tedious xp grinding, knowing that once we put the time and effort into doing it, we'd never have to do it again. 16.5 million xp, at a minimum. It sucked.

We put up with lousy destinies for the character we were playing (My sorc really gets nothing out of shadowdancer. Or dreadnought. Or a large variety of other epic destinies), so that we could get them done, and with the system in place, we'd never have to go back to them.




Seriously, why do you think you 'have to go back to them' with that character? Just don't ETR the character(s) you ground out max destinies for. The rewards aren't worth it if you don't enjoy re-acquiring those xps.

I've got one character with a lot of EDs who I will never ETR for that reason. Problem solved.

[Coyopa]

Seriously, why do you think you 'have to go back to them' with that character? Just don't ETR the character(s) you ground out max destinies for. The rewards aren't worth it if you don't enjoy re-acquiring those xps.

I've got one character with a lot of EDs who I will never ETR for that reason. Problem solved.

I do not understand what it is you are failing to grasp about the plan as Glin said it in the original post. If you do *ANY* type of true reincarnation, then *ALL* your destiny experience gets reset to zero. So, does not matter if you heroic TR, Iconic TR, or Epic TR. Doing anything defined as "true reincarnation" will reset your destiny experience. Now do you understand why people are upset?

[WruntJunior]

Seriously, why do you think you 'have to go back to them' with that character? Just don't ETR the character(s) you ground out max destinies for. The rewards aren't worth it if you don't enjoy re-acquiring those xps.

I've got one character with a lot of EDs who I will never ETR for that reason. Problem solved.

Because if you Heroic TR, you lose all the XP. If you TR at ALL, you lose the XP. Your character is basically stuck without the ability to TR unless you want to lose all your ED progress (except for up to 1 ED).



Epic Advantage


With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

[Teh_Troll]

This.

If we can keep all our fate points, AND they get rid of the ED map (where you have to have 3-4 ranks in an useless destiny to unlock a destiny you do want), then I might be for this.

This is a chance to fix the ED system... I don't mind losing all the grind I've already done if I can keep the fate points, and my twist slots and can level in any ED I want. Because then I can just relevel the 3-5 EDs I'm interested in (and have fun playing while doing it) instead of wasting time getting magister ranks on my fighter to unlock twists...

If we have to re-grind the fate points again, wasting time AGAIN in EDs that suck for our character, then I agree the proposed system is terrible.


Turbine . . . you lost Thrudh.

Canary in a coalmine? :)

[Nestroy]

This.

If we can keep all our fate points, AND they get rid of the ED map (where you have to have 3-4 ranks in an useless destiny to unlock a destiny you do want), then I might be for this.

This is a chance to fix the ED system... I don't mind losing all the grind I've already done if I can keep the fate points, and my twist slots and can level in any ED I want. Because then I can just relevel the 3-5 EDs I'm interested in (and have fun playing while doing it) instead of wasting time getting magister ranks on my fighter to unlock twists...

If we have to re-grind the fate points again, wasting time AGAIN in EDs that suck for our character, then I agree the proposed system is terrible.

This and Amen.

[DDOForumAccount]

So, no, I have not over-reacted to the potential loss of over 20 million exp on each of three characters. If they go ahead with this plan, I will just leave the game. I left EverQuest with a 67 druid, 65 cleric, 56 monk, 51 bard, and multiple other lower level characters back when the cap was level 80 because I decided the grind to get there (and do all the Alternative Advancement ****) was too much. The grind here is considerably (even dramatically) less than that, but grinding is not fun and I avoid it as much as possible.

I would argue against that, and counter it with the suggestion that grind in DDO is considerably bigger than what it was in EverQuest, which after all was an extreme example of a grindy game. Sure, getting to 80 was a bigger grind than getting to 20 (25) here. It was probably comparable to what, double or triple-tr. But, the AA points were about as much as one level (80 levels, so about 1 bubble here...), and at the top tier quests doing 15-20 points was fast enough. Beyond that point getting more AA was nice and dandy, but beyond the first class-based AA:s the rest were nice-to-have bonuses that accumulated with time, not something mandatory. Of course, in EverQuest leveling up was the mandatory bad to get you raiding, which was the actual game. Here where the leveling is the game.

For max level toons the big difference was: when you did one more AA, your toon got better. Mostly by miniscule amounts, but still better. In DDO when you cap one more destiny, you'll end up with a way worse toon with a fresh 0-level destiny. Here the the destiny grind is just annoying. You either gimp your toon for a long time to grind the destinies on easy content / farming for gear, or you decide to fry your brain and go insane by repeating same boring quest a gazillion times for 30+ hours. I did do one ID-farm for 1 hour, won't be doing the same any time soon.

Chaining TR is fun enough, and the tactics of doing 3-4 tiers of the next destiny bubble means I only have to repeat the epic quests at most once before TRing back to Bravery-running quests once each. New system means I'll just skip epic content for good, leaving plenty of fun quests untouched. Sounds boring enough: without the occasional epic stuff, the newbie quests get boring too. Doom and game dying imminent, or at least a personal retire, I even dropped from our TR train due to not really bothering right now, maybe I'll catch up, maybe not, time will tell.

(Disclaimer: no, I don't have maxed destinies, at most maybe 5 destinies at 3-5 bubbles. And I still think this sucks balls enough to retire as it stands).

[Charononus]

This.

If we can keep all our fate points, AND they get rid of the ED map (where you have to have 3-4 ranks in an useless destiny to unlock a destiny you do want), then I might be for this.

This is a chance to fix the ED system... I don't mind losing all the grind I've already done if I can keep the fate points, and my twist slots and can level in any ED I want. Because then I can just relevel the 3-5 EDs I'm interested in (and have fun playing while doing it) instead of wasting time getting magister ranks on my fighter to unlock twists...

If we have to re-grind the fate points again, wasting time AGAIN in EDs that suck for our character, then I agree the proposed system is terrible.


Turbine . . . you lost Thrudh.

Canary in a coalmine? :)

This proves it, the doom is real.

[Teh_Troll]

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.

In the defense of the d00000m . . . that's not how it was presented to us. Also historically it takes and agry mob to get you guys to listen to us.

It shouldn't get to 24 pages of d00m before we get some feedback, it should be a conversation from the get go.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

If this is true (and it appears it probably is), then your producers should not come on here and say "Hey, look! We're planning to hose you by year's end!" - because that is exactly what Glin did. S/He said this was going to be released later this year, which means this has been in the works and is not "far in advance of its implementation". Get your facts straight within your company, have your talking points well-defined, and make sure your spokespeople know the talking points and stick to them and THEN start a dialogue with your customers.

5+ months is pretty far in advanced for any mmo. (November for U20, which they did not commit to, could be later)

And they said they were PLANNING on trying to implement it later this year. It's not a for real thing until it's and update on lammania.

So, maybe you should get your facts straight too.

I'm not a fan of Heroic TR resetting ED XP, and I've posted my feedback and possible solutions, but i also don't expect them to completely rework their ideas in a day. Instead, I now wait, and if i haven't seen any proposed changes to the system by this time next week, I'll post my thoughts again, in general or suggestions/ideas.

[Thrudh]

Keep the current TR system in place where you don't loose Destiny XP. Then ad an epic system that erases one destiny's XP at a time (not all of them) then you have to regrind it at an increased cost like current heroic TR.

This is a very interesting idea...

Say you have all 11 capped, and you want to get the ED past life for Fury... Well, you Epic TR, lose all exp in the Fury ED ONLY... But you get the "past-life" for Fury, and now you have to recap just Fury.. but it costs 3 million instead of 1.9 million... But the good news is that it probably is an ED you LIKE (since you wanted the "past-life" benefit), so releveling in it might actually be somewhat fun...

[Towrn]

This is a very interesting idea...

Say you have all 11 capped, and you want to get the ED past life for Fury... Well, you Epic TR, lose all exp in the Fury ED ONLY... But you get the "past-life" for Fury, and now you have to recap just Fury.. but it costs 3 million instead of 1.9 million... But the good news is that it probably is an ED you LIKE (since you wanted the "past-life" benefit), so releveling in it might actually be somewhat fun...

Sounds similar (with a twist) to what many people (myself included) have already posted.

This is more the line of thinking that seems to make sense to most players. At least the ones that are posting in the thread.

[cdbd3rd]

... If you disagree, that just means your opinion is worthless. ...


If we were ever to adopt a motto for the new age of the forums... :D

/Returns to lurk mode.

[Silverleafeon]

Wonders which vendors sell pitchforks?

http://ddowiki.com/index.php?search=pitchforks&go=Go&title=Special%3ASearch

Wander off to search the DDO store for Pitchforks...

[danotmano1998]

Well, after having been logged out while typing a reply numerous times.. (I thought this was fixed?!?!)

I'll shorten my response to this:

1. Losing months worth of effort grinding out destinies just to reincarnate is a terrible idea. Please don't do this. I will never TR again if this is implemented. It takes all the effort, feel-good, progression (call it what you will) and throws it in the trash if you decide you want to TR.

2. Heroic TR and Epic TR should have absolutely nothing to do with each other. This is the way they were designed, and it works just fine. Allow Epic TR's to restart at lvl 20 without impacting any of their heroic build choices. Allow Heroic TR to restart at level 1 without impacting any of their EP build choices.

So far those are my 2 copper.

There are so many more, but frankly, I'm disgusted by these intial ideas, and it appears I'm not alone on this.
Please don't kill this game, it's nearly on life support already. Couple bad management with rushed buggy products and poorly conceived ideas and... *sigh*

[Captain_Wizbang]

Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post Keep the current TR system in place where you don't loose Destiny XP. Then ad an epic system that erases one destiny's XP at a time (not all of them) then you have to regrind it at an increased cost like current heroic TR.THIS