Are melee FVS a thing of the past?

[Xeno5k]

Lately on Cannith I've noticed that there's hardly any melee fvs, in fact I'm pretty sure my friend and I are the only Melee FVS around. Thing is I can't really see why that is, I can out dps caster fvs and I'm far more SP efficient than caster FVS, yet caster and healbot FVS are all thats around now. Why is that?

[zeichen-thest]

Personally, I think that you are totally mistaken. Most FVS are no longer DC casting, they are usually either light dot tank build, or melee. Both builds will also have healing capabilities.

The problem with the melee build in general is that it isn't a good party build. FVS melee dps isn't even 1/4th of a real melee build. They are good enough for solo play but the problem is when grouping what is the role of each toon in the group. Caster fvs with high dc have great implosion, or crowd control as well as great light spell dmg.

I always find it amusing when I see a totally gimp build and the player thinks that it is the best in the world.

[Xeno5k]

Personally, I think that you are totally mistaken. Most FVS are no longer DC casting, they are usually either light dot tank build, or melee. Both builds will also have healing capabilities.

The problem with the melee build in general is that it isn't a good party build. FVS melee dps isn't even 1/4th of a real melee build. They are good enough for solo play but the problem is when grouping what is the role of each toon in the group. Caster fvs with high dc have great implosion, or crowd control as well as great light spell dmg.

I always find it amusing when I see a totally gimp build and the player thinks that it is the best in the world.

What server are you seeing this on, because on Cannith I'm having an extremely hard time finding other melee FVS?

Oh and about that 1/4 thing, yeah I kinda have to agree with you most melee FVS I used to run into didn't even take cleave much less other nice feats like Overwhelming critical. Though that still really doesn't explain where they all went, are they hibernating like bears do or something?

[Dandonk]

I have three melee fvs (though I only run two regularly). I'm on G-land.

But I will have to agree, I don't see as many melee fvs around as I did a while ago. Whether this is coincidence, or whatever, I don't know.

[PermaBanned]

Why is that?

Melee fvs was last month.

This months melee flavor is the Juggernot.

Stay tuned for next months flavor...


Edit: no, it's not a typo...

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

I have three melee fvs (though I only run two regularly). I'm on G-land.

But I will have to agree, I don't see as many melee fvs around as I did a while ago. Whether this is coincidence, or whatever, I don't know.

I specced out of melee long ago, just wasn't synergizing with healing responsibilities. That said I have a battlecleric that tries hard to multitask, and on a good night might even get a compliment for being high in the kill count while no one died.

I also have a melee soul of sorts in the planner, though its really just fighter/FvS recreation of a Pali, with more DPS feats and higher strength.

Healing from the pile is satisfying when you are "on" but things outside your control can lead to hot tempers quick. Also no matter how good you are at it 90% of the time, one slip or missed stun save and people are telling you to stand back and babysitt their health bars. which is why so many groups sit with healer icons for long periods of time. Heal botting is boring for a lot of people stairing at small red bars with poor visual feedback, selection highlight is hard to see, no attention getter flashing when someone really low, feedback for too far is a tiny text blurb, other times you have no clue why the heal didn't hit... meh the whole thing is yawn inducing.

I have a ranged Elf FvS AA that plays great, but according to the forum theory crafting experts she's Gimp and not capable of contributing in EE, despite plenty of successful EE completions on her where she both kept the party from wiping and also managed middle of the pack kills. (and no Shiradi yet).

I think being a melee FvS just requires an amount of multitasking and willingness to accept responsibility when tripped, or stunned and deal with the "get in the kitchen and make me a sammich! er I mean stay back and heal bot" that most people are not comfortable with. The alternative of announcing you do not heal, or won't main heal, every time you join a group is just painfully untenable.

[Xeno5k]

I think being a melee FvS just requires an amount of multitasking and willingness to accept responsibility when tripped, or stunned and deal with the "get in the kitchen and make me a sammich! er I mean stay back and heal bot" that most people are not comfortable with. The alternative of announcing you do not heal, or won't main heal, every time you join a group is just painfully untenable.

You know you might have a point it is hard to get good it, now that I think about it it took me a while to get good at it too. However, one thing I have found quite convenient is that when you're a melee FVS dealing with zergers is easier.

[Nightmanis]

They all TRed into Juggs. Kinda sad really, when they were a FVS they were more able to compliment a party than the "I was built to solo and only solo" mentality of the Juggernauts. There's one that I'm friends with, he's going to TR into a Jugg as well. I told him not to, but he insists on it because "It has trap skills, etc etc etc" that all the Juggs use to justify them. I don't even really trap that much anymore on my rogue, so I'm not finding that as a valid excuse anymore :/

[WruntJunior]

Personally, I got tired of people being idiots and expecting me to cover for their stupidity, among other things related to having a FvS symbol, which is why I TRed my melee FvS (first to Juggernaut, then on finding out that wasn't for me into a Paladin).

Another cause of melee FvS being rarer is that several of the people who used to enjoy melee FvS wound up irritated with apparent game directions for divines, causing them to TR out of them (as I originally did) or potentially even quit playing.

[Noctus]

Well lets see for my case:

* I had a generalist Cleric then TR -->FvS with melee and DC-casting for ages. But then the strain got too big (with level raises and then divine Epic Destinies absolutly not suited to this style of play) to realise halfway decent DPS and halfway decent DCs, so he retired. So instead of healing raids re now holds my level 1-12 twink gear for TRing.

* Then i had a CC & nuke FvS after the generalist retired. This is nice but when i get into difficult territory the DC casting, while still somewhat efficient doesnt cut it enough any more, as it competes with healing for my limited SPs, so i most of the time had to fall back into a pure healbot with the occasional DoT thrown in when at the boss endfight and a good group. Healbotting is too boring for me, so i TRed him into this and that and now he is nearly forgotten in the middle of a TR as my Craftbot.

* Also i (still) have a melee FvS which dumped offensive casting compeltly and just melees and heals. Still working as good as ever, although playing is ultra high attention time. Sometimes i get to hear some saying of "Healbot me! how do you dare to wield a weapon!?!? Your fault i died split up from the rest of the party." This doesnt bother me in the slightest. Guess who'd better be self-sufficent because he wont get any hjealz from me any more (10% is lost anyway ;)). When i post groups they come, because lo and behold a healer that pugs!
But .. but when i lot at the Enhancement Alpha and see that the devs decided that taking away my Scimitar +damage enhancements and the other stuff that was going on in the Devine Trees pushing hard into the Nannybot role and while at least acknowloding offensive casting divines, there is nothing for melee-oriented players of healers. Well they wont make a "proper Hjealer/Boo-Boo-Pretector" out of my last divine. I'll just TR into one of the new builds that will come from the enhancemnt pass (too much raidloot and tomes and endgame gear to use as a mule) and thus Pugs will be looking even longer till the fill the last spot. And 1 less player that has a character to switch too when a raid needs some Healing. I can do healbotting when needed for some EEs or some parts of a raid, but as a primary playstile? Hell no!

[Standal]

I think it's probably true that many people who would have played a melee FVS are now playing Juggs. I built a melee FVS for the first life of my current main. I picked melee FVS because it would solo well and still be able to raid heal. The Jugg does everything that made the FVS a good soloist better, plus it has evasion, trap skills, and ranged capability. If I want to heal something, I have my borked up offensive caster FVS and cleric to do that.

[Forzah]

I think it's probably true that many people who would have played a melee FVS are now playing Juggs. I built a melee FVS for the first life of my current main. I picked melee FVS because it would solo well and still be able to raid heal. The Jugg does everything that made the FVS a good soloist better, plus it has evasion, trap skills, and ranged capability. If I want to heal something, I have my borked up offensive caster FVS and cleric to do that.

I'm playing one now and I love the frantic spothealing + cleaving :D

[Qaliya]

The problem with the melee build in general is that it isn't a good party build. FVS melee dps isn't even 1/4th of a real melee build. They are good enough for solo play but the problem is when grouping what is the role of each toon in the group. Caster fvs with high dc have great implosion, or crowd control as well as great light spell dmg.


Glad to see someone else say this. In the past I've grouped with FVS who were eager to tell the group they "weren't healers", except for themselves, of course. Instead they ran around swinging a two-hander -- poorly. It's great to be in a group as a barbarian and having to hang back from the fighting because you can't heal yourself to stay alive if you jump in, while a perfectly good healer does what you were designed to do half as well.

[Veles]

Personally, I think that you are totally mistaken. Most FVS are no longer DC casting, they are usually either light dot tank build, or melee. Both builds will also have healing capabilities.
What exactly are these "tank" builds tanking ?


The problem with the melee build in general is that it isn't a good party build. FVS melee dps isn't even 1/4th of a real melee build.
That's just not true, there are melee divines that put half the melees to shame.

They are good enough for solo play but the problem is when grouping what is the role of each toon in the group.
Role ? You have either bad group which requires constant attention in order to have any chance of completion or self sufficient toons which don't require much hjealing ( or not at all ) and then you **** better kill some stuff.
Wraps/melee.

Caster fvs with high dc have great implosion, or crowd control as well as great light spell dmg.
You mean 55 - 57 implo ( which is **** hard to get, FEW get it that high ) with many lives that doesn't even work half the time because of ******** high fort
saves ? And "great" light damage ? Please
tl;dr
heroics : casting divine is among the fastest zergers wrecking heroics, melee is optional flavour
epic n/h: who cares, 9clr/9wiz/2 rogue is viable
EE : DC casting is at bad point, "light " damage is nothing compared to other casters, that leaves wraps+stun, thf

[Qaliya]

Role ? You have either bad group which requires constant attention in order to have any chance of completion or self sufficient toons which don't require much hjealing ( or not at all ) and then you **** better kill some stuff.


False dichotomy alert.

You know, some people actually enjoy being in groups. I solo sometimes, but grouping is more fun IF the group is actually cooperating and working together. The groups that are not fun are the ones where one or two people who really should be soloing are in the group solely to show off how fast they can run through the quest and kill everything while making snide comments about how uber they are to everyone else.

[Dandonk]

I like playing my melee fvs. I get to smash things while keeping the party alive. Yes, it takes some amount of multitasking to do this, but I find it generally more satisfying than just staying in the back and doing nothing but watching bars go up and down.

[oweieie]

Being massively sub-optimal can be tiring.

[Jasongnc2]

Did 2 lives as a melee FVS and liked it a lot. My favorite story about him illustrates why I liked it, and also way this setup is detested by the rest of the population.
It was on a Shroud hard. Last part. Cleric and i were healing and we ran out of spell points and pots and everyone started dying. Well i whipped out the Greatsword and with Torc and great saves had enough sp to keep myself healed and eventually killed him. Half the group was like Yay thanks for saving the run, the other half was like: F you for letting us die.

[scoobmx]

Personally, I think that you are totally mistaken. Most FVS are no longer DC casting, they are usually either light dot tank build, or melee. Both builds will also have healing capabilities.

The problem with the melee build in general is that it isn't a good party build. FVS melee dps isn't even 1/4th of a real melee build. They are good enough for solo play but the problem is when grouping what is the role of each toon in the group. Caster fvs with high dc have great implosion, or crowd control as well as great light spell dmg.

I always find it amusing when I see a totally gimp build and the player thinks that it is the best in the world.

I play a melee FVS that's more like half to 3/4 the dps of a full ****** melee and have received praise for what I contribute to the party, so either you're exaggerating, or the skill and concentration required to play this build these days is beyond most players.

[TheLegendOfAra]

I play a melee FVS that's more like half to 3/4 the dps of a full ****** melee and have received praise for what I contribute to the party, so either you're exaggerating, or the skill and concentration required to play this build these days is beyond most players.

Don't listen to Scoob.
He let me die in a EHCITW yesterday.
Gimp.
Reroll.

[scoobmx]

Don't listen to Scoob.
He let me die in a EHCITW yesterday.
Gimp.
Reroll.

Nobody can help people who walk off cliffs. ;)
Die Ara

[TheLegendOfAra]

Nobody can help people who walk off cliffs. ;)
Die Ara

But, but! Those cliffs are out to get me I swear.
They move! Or something...
One second I'm walking along perfectly happy, the next I'm falling into the void.

Also, cliffs aside, That will never happen. Ever.

[Buffyanne]

I no longer play my FVS outside of solo, byoh or guild runs because I never made my FVS to be a healer. I don't like healing. No, check that, I have no problem post battle healing or throwing a mass heal but I do not like babysitting people to keep them alive. However, in epic play that's exactly what most PUGs expect a FVS or Cleric to do. Pass.

[Raoull]

I play a melee FvS on Cannith. We're still around.

Unfortunately.... I found that while he rocks on EH, and was pretty decent in EE before Gianthold, he really isn't all that up to snuff in EE now. Doable and all, but not what I'd want.

Some of that is gearing, which I'm working on. Some is that he still hasn't LRed from the days when a Str based made sense for a clonk, whereas now I think he needs to be Wis based since his Stuns need a bit of a boost in GH.

But, the other big thing, is no Aura. I missed my aura for a while, but with the more SP and the Wings (I do love the wings) I dealt with it. Now.... he just needs a bit more survivability that is difficult to come by in pajamas. I'd much rather be a true clonk now with the Aura giving that bit more. More SP doesn't matter much, as I doubt it even can match what gets saved with Aura and Bursts.

With Destinies, FvS have it made for the traditional Healbot role, backed up with a touch of light DPS for added punch. Clerics get shafted by Angel having an awesome ability that requires 10 light based spells to charge it up.... or just standing around for 20 seconds as a FvS and letting the archon do it for you. To be even theoretically fair, the Aura should grant counters for the Heal side of that, although the actual ability for that side is so weak it doesn't even matter.

Clerics, on the other hand, can wade into melee more safely than a FvS. Not only the Aura and Bursts, but also the Heavy Armor proficiency, which actually means something now. And in Sentinel, they get to add the Light the Dark as more regenerating Bursts, speed up their turn regen and buff up their defense so that wading into the battle is less dangerous. Not the most DPS destiny available to them, but lets them keep whacking and healing from the front lines very effectively.

One of these days (after leveling up another healer to help out when guildies need it), my clonk is TRing back to a cleric for the aura.

[sunseeker]

:Warning Text wall to follow:

I don't see many Melee FvS on G-land. I have 2 FvS one is a WF melee build, the second is a Half elf ranged build. The melee was fun but it became too tough to keep myself alive, I needed more gear. And I didn't like following health bars through a quest. It was easy to mass heal but my gear meant that I would always have to cast another on myself to get to full. I then got an idea one day while I was at work for a FvS that used a bow to activate the archon and use BB to corral mobs . When I came home I started building a ranger that would TR into a FvS. I didnt have any illusions that I would have AWESOME dps or anything like that I only new it would be fun. I don't do MC builds so it had lots of limitations. It ended up requiring 2 past lives for 36 points so I made them ranger, they were easy. The last life however was VERY tough for me. FvS are very weak in the low levels and so is bow damage without manyshot or AA imbues. plus new issues arose, like quicken+rapid shot and casting a spell. Strange stuff happens when you need a cast a spell during a reload animation. You have to finish reloading before you can begin the casting animation.

After some testing I came to the conclusion that I built a fun ranged build that had low damage at long distance and moderate damage at shot-medium distance, but I could keep out of range and still do moderate damage. Further testing proved that while this casting/reloading animation lessened at higher levels(faster reloads) it was still present and I would have lower reaction time in heavy combat if I was firing an arrow. Too much fun to just healbot, so I started TR'n for caster/DPS focused past lives (Zen Archery make me wisdom based) and because I didn't have anything better to do.


I got bored and started looking for more power in past lives or better builds so I TR'd my FvS but after soo much gear and past life hoopla it was tough for me to go back into the same role and slave over Hit Point bars, its BORING!!
I did my 3rd FvS past life last month after 12 lives it seemed like I had put too much work into it to fit into the role of healbot. "I didn't just TR 12 times to not use this bow." Shes pretty much a Gimp flavor build, not massive DPS, I would say I do around the same damage as a first life dex based AA heroic ranger. Sad part is if I explain my build to people, that Im a ranged toon most of em just see HJEALER. Sometimes it feels like people will easier accept some gimped ranger pally build over a combat focused divine. Actually that's a pretty fair description of my build

I find myself looking for ways to lower my SP so people wont expect me to heal and its not that I won't heal them its that I don't want to "just" heal. If that what they need and I'm not in the mood I drop, no biggie.

[voodoogroves]

Formerly had 3 melee FVS.

- One decided she wanted to be more castery, and is romping through wiz/sorc past lives. Given what they did to DC casting, she may head back to melee FVS next life.
- One was just passing through - that was a few lives ago.
- One was fun, but is now a Juggernaut.

They are great fun, but I do not enjoy raiding as much with them. Small guild, so I pug pretty much every raid - far easier to do your thing on someone not watching health bars.

[Noctus]

So much fail in this post i have to adress the misconceptions one by one:



The problem with the melee build in general is that it isn't a good party build.

Just plain wrong. .. No thats an understatement, its not just wrong, but the opposite of it. Its an excellent party build.

A melee Divine (as it counts for Clerics, too) sacrifices DC casting and gives up some melee DPS to be able to not only keep himself alive, but keep the whole party healed. If your build's goal is just keeping yourself alive there are Bard, Ranger, Paladin, Artificer who can do that and bring more buffs/DPS/stuff to work.




FVS melee dps isn't even 1/4th of a real melee build.

78,4% of all statistics are made up on the spot. Thats nearly 2/3!

Also having experience on both sides of the fence, i'd rate it at around ~80% of a pure melee character's DPS. the gap was noticeably lessened when EDs came out and both can now have the same main DPS source with being in Fury or Dreadnaught.




They are good enough for solo play but the problem is when grouping what is the role of each toon in the group.

DDO doesnt follow the Holy Trinity of MMO combat, aka Tank, Heal, DPS. Thus there are no predefined "Roles" you have to stick to, or fail. Many players with previous other MMO experience fail to realise this, and its implications. Thus untill they understand the DDO mechanics they will aways stay subpar to their potential.




Caster fvs with high dc have great implosion, or crowd control as well as great light spell dmg.

Heroic levels are just a tranistory state, so i talk about levels 20+.
EN is the new casual, EH is not too difficult and most builds work there. So a fully specced caster FvS can indeed archieve good, but not great CC in there. But its in EE where a build really shows its true strengh. And currently there the CC option for a not 12 caster past lives caster is ... bad.

Independent of that light damage is always just a pittance, a thing to do when nothing else is currently in need of attention so you can feel that you also contributed to dealing damage. But calling it "great" is hyperbole, plain and simple. Its a tiny fraction of the damage that is dealt in melee or by arcane damage casters.




I always find it amusing when I see a totally gimp build and the player thinks that it is the best in the world.

I always find it amusing when i see a player that sees a few failcharacters at work, whos fail often lies behind the keyboard, because they were simply copypasta'ed from the forums, or build by players who heared that a certain build concept and then cobbeled their own version of it together without actual knowledge of its required playstyle.

This player then decrees that the whole build concept is inherenty a fail. Especially when the concept actually requires a certain amount of general playerskill and the ability to keep your attention on two or three things at once. These are the kinds of builds that shine in the hands of a good player, and tend to make people impressed, but tend to suck when even a mediocre palyer recreates it by copying it from the forums, but lacking the experience of having capped its 3 or 4 predecessor-versions.

Same old, same old:
"A Rogues only job is to do the traps and then not die."
"Rogues can't do DPS!"
"All bards can do is sing and then be useless!"
"Melee divines do crappy DPS and dont heal anyone else!"

[oweieie]

Just plain wrong. .. No thats an understatement, its not just wrong, but the opposite of it. Its an excellent party build.

Worst possible build past level 10 or so. The game is just so easy you can get away with it. Divine melee has pathetic DPS, it's utterly stupid to be spending your time doing it.


DDO doesnt follow the Holy Trinity of MMO combat, aka Tank, Heal, DPS.

It does.


Thus there are no predefined "Roles" you have to stick to, or fail.

Try running something beyond casual. Let an EE Lord of Blades play with some of the DPS and see how well that goes. Even that quest is easy enough you don't need an optimal tank, but it is easier if you have a tank to hold it, DPS to get it down faster and healers so everyone doesn't die.

[Teh_Troll]

I play a melee FVS that's more like half to 3/4 the dps of a full ****** melee and have received praise for what I contribute to the party, so either you're exaggerating, or the skill and concentration required to play this build these days is beyond most players.

You're probably the exception and not the rule.

Come on, most of these build have always been terrible.

[Teh_Troll]

Try running something beyond casual. Let an EE Lord of Blades play with some of the DPS and see how well that goes. Even that quest is easy enough you don't need an optimal tank, but it is easier if you have a tank to hold it, DPS to get it down faster and healers so everyone doesn't die.


DPS/Tank/Hjeals is needed for a small part of the game, much of which most never even play.

[Teh_Troll]

Got a joke for you . . .

What do you call a FVS with a 55 Necor/Evocation DC in EE?





wait for it . . .





A healbot!

Might as well melee to do something else as very little content requires a healer's 100% attention. I went for an 18/2 Clonk with a high stunning-fist DC. Sure his own personal DPS is crappy but another stunner is always a good thing.

When I get to that 2% of the game that requires all my attention I stop hitting things and hjeal.

[Ancient]

Worst possible build past level 10 or so. The game is just so easy you can get away with it. Divine melee has pathetic DPS, it's utterly stupid to be spending your time doing it.
A melee based hybrid FVS was one of the first builds to solo the forgotten realms EE chain. It may not be the top build, maybe it isn't even one of the current top builds. But to claim it is the worst possible build at any point... is not a defensible statement.

[Enoach]

I see a lot of mention of "healbot" or I don't "heal" being mentioned in threads like this.

Many of these responses come from personal experiences and are tainted by individual beliefs and goals for a character.

1. All Characters/Players are responsible for their own well being
2. A primary healing type character is capable at all levels to help a group last longer - However, it does not make up for playing stupid
3. A Good melee Divine is doing more than Melee damage at any point in time
4. A Good Primary Healer knows when it is time to drop back
5. The old adage "An ounce of prevention is greater than a pound of cure" is true - Want to save SP "Properly Buff your group" **
6. A Good Primary Healer learns to identify their teams strengths and weaknesses and works to that end (Using the right amount of healing needed instead of using unnecessary resources)

Playing Divines since '06, never once been a healbot, always willing to buff and have been very successful in assisting groups for success at all difficulty levels including EE Quests and Raids.


** Properly buff your group does not mean giving them every buff, it means making sure they have the ones they need

[backandforth]

Got a joke for you . . .

What do you call a FVS with a 55 Necor/Evocation DC in EE?



Answer: Leader of the kill count.

[Teh_Troll]

Answer: Leader of the kill count.

In Epic Casual sure.

[EvilII]

Answer: Leader of the kill count.

If he's soloing, maybe.

[Teh_Troll]

If he's soloing, maybe.

/win

[Qaliya]

Lots of "I" and "me" in this thread; not much "we" and "us".

If you're soloing, do whatever you want. But if you're in a party, your only priority should be ensuring that the party completes the quest successfully, and with any hope, has fun doing it.

Last night I was in a two-man group doing The Pit. The other guy was a very experienced player who knew the quest inside-out; I did not. He was on a paladin chugging SF pots, and I was on an artificer. I helped kill mobs when we found them, but I spent at least as much time throwing healing pots at his feet. And I was happy to do it.

Last life I did epics on my paladin where I did more healing than killing, because that's what made sense in that party.

The party dynamic is one of the great strengths of this game. It's too bad so many people only care about maximizing their own character's capabilities.

[Veles]

A melee based hybrid FVS was one of the first builds to solo the forgotten realms EE chain. It may not be the top build, maybe it isn't even one of the current top builds. But to claim it is the worst possible build at any point... is not a defensible statement.
You know well that he was/is completionist with the best gear, tens of past lives and probably one of the best players.
Pre destinies, most of these builds were just abysmal dps. And it's an option now only because destinies matter much more than class itself, and DC casting is pretty much dead in GH/u16.
It's like juggernaut, it works in the hands of great player with the best gear and many past lives ( and such player could possibly make anything seems easy ), yet 90% you meet in game are just terrible ( no self sufficient,no tactics, nothing ) because they just aren't "ready or experienced enough " to play such toon yet.

Answer: Leader of the kill count.
Let us know how 55 works for you in u16/GH.

[jalont]

DDO doesnt follow the Holy Trinity of MMO combat, aka Tank, Heal, DPS. Thus there are no predefined "Roles" you have to stick to, or fail. Many players with previous other MMO experience fail to realise this, and its implications. Thus untill they understand the DDO mechanics they will aways stay subpar to their potential.


Role probably isn't the right word. But, melee fvs and really divines in general don't want to heal so they're spot is better filled by a self-sufficient toon that does more dps. Divines have basically whined themselves into a corner. Everyone now builds self sufficient toons because divines didn't want to heal. The problem is, in endgame, they don't bring enough to the table anymore, even if they're healbots. While it seems some people have problems filling lfms and will probably take a divine, others of us don't have this problem and can be selective. Save for maybe two raids in the game, divines are the bottom of the pack. We can all take care of ourselves, out dps divines and out cc them.

[Veles]

Everyone now builds self sufficient toons because divines didn't want to heal.
Everyone ? There are hordes of toons that die in 5 seconds in first room in hard Tor.
Bladeforged paladins without hjealer friend and only with PDK gloves seem to be the last flavour.

The rest of your post is spot on, describing divines in good groups.

[Teh_Troll]

Role probably isn't the right word. But, melee fvs and really divines in general don't want to heal so they're spot is better filled by a self-sufficient toon that does more dps. Divines have basically whined themselves into a corner. Everyone now builds self sufficient toons because divines didn't want to heal. The problem is, in endgame, they don't bring enough to the table anymore, even if they're healbots. While it seems some people have problems filling lfms and will probably take a divine, others of us don't have this problem and can be selective. Save for maybe two raids in the game, divines are the bottom of the pack. We can all take care of ourselves, out dps divines and out cc them.

When running EEs we always joke "healer too slow!" as the no-healer runs on the self-healing melees go smoother than when we have a healer in the group.

[Noctus]

But, melee fvs and really divines in general don't want to heal /snip/

You see, there is the root of the probem.

I dont know what server you are on, or if and when yes in what kind of guild you are, but this doesnt depict the game i have been playing, in guildruns, in channelruns or in open pugs. Not at all.


Lets build an analogy:

I say "Mates, i have heared of a new invention! Its called Eating with a Fork and Knife, and it keeps your hands clean and thus is much more sanitary than eating with your hands. Also less fingerbiting when you are really hungry."

But you, dear poster, just met some retards who tried to cut with the fork while holding the steak down with the knife, and then repeatedly stabbed themself in the face while trying to get food into their mouth. One even lost an eye.

Thus you say: "No old chap! Not only does it make a big mess as you cant hold food as good as with your fingers, its even a danger to your health due to all the facestabbing with these newfangeled eating utensils! Such nonsense needs to be actively banned for the good of all our health!"


---> You cant judge a build on the basis that every user uses it in the most ******** way possible.

[Tyrande]

Role probably isn't the right word. But, melee fvs and really divines in general don't want to heal [..]

Tis true. When I am on my pure monk or pure artificer I can scroll heal, or drink the bottomless rum.
However, I do not think they are as good as the healing done by a good healer. Actually, a good healer does not need to heal as much and is just either instant killing, blade barrier'ing, crowd controlling or DOTing.

When I am on my multiclass Favored Soul, I told the group to be BYOH unless its an emergency. I will let people die and then resurrection if they all die in an instant. I also specifically told the group that the character I was playing was an evoker first, melee second and healing last and has only recently acquired the heal spell and does not even carry mass cures or mass heal; plus the positive enhancements were weak.

[zwiebelring]

WF melee FvS was a little easy button on wings. Immunity nerf, Earthgrab nerf, Terror nerf made WF melee FvS a total flaor build, in my opinion. But since I like the WF race the melee Artificer is just covinient. I sacrifice party healing for better dps (MB) and better self healing (Reconstruct) and last but not least better self buffs.

If I had to build another melee FvS I'd go Dwarf, Human, Helf or HOrc in a lvl. 18 FvS/ 2 Ftr or Mnk split. WF never again. Maybe Bladeforged when they finally can be TRed or can be TRed into.

[scoobmx]

I will say that for certain the WF FVS used to be somewhat of a flavor of the month build. It now requires a considerable amount of skill to play due to both the amount of active abilities added by epic destinies and the speed at which people can take damage and die. However, certain variants of the build are still indeed perfectly viable. Most people instead choose to move onto the next flavor of the month, though.

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

Being massively exaggeration prone can be tiring.

Fixed that for you.

[Dj_Fisty]

I always find it amusing when I see a totally gimp build and the player thinks that it is the best in the world.

Named F**** In Sarlona. hahahahahahha

[Cogdoc]

I just wanted to chime in to address one point raised in this thread, saying that light damage even on a fully decked out FvS is pitiful.

In case any of you have never tried the epic destiny ability divine wrath from the exalted angel build, I urge you to check it out. Having your lantern out to continuously and automatically keep up the stacks of ardor needed to be able to use this ability, you only have to wait for the cooldown.

This one ability can damage mobs, and heal the surrounding party members at the same time. It practically acts like a remote castable radiant servant positive energy burst. You can just ditch mass heal, and use this in raids where melee are busy beating on one single boss, surrounding him.

I know elite shroud is not what most of you consider to be a challenge, but you can in fact solo heal that quest with using this single ability, as both of the healing heavy fights have this pattern, one boss standing in the middle, with every melee (who require the bulk of your healing anyway) standing around him bashing away.

Just drop this nuke on the boss, and while it does nice damage, it also acts like you have thrown a mass heal on the group at the same time.

And let me tell you, even though it is not top dps compared to draconic energy bursts or the sum of all shiradi tidbits, it does crit for some sweet numbers occasionally. Additionally you can easily upkeep a fully stacked divine punishment (the light based DOT) next to these nukes.

So if you have the required twitch skills (it does require good timing of abilities), you can ditch out very nice dps, and keep a raid healed at the same time. Thats nothing to scowl at imho.

Cogdoc

[kwyjibo_lol]

Named F**** In Sarlona. hahahahahahha

Yeah he and xxn****** go on and on and on but consistently do the most daft things.

[chrisdinus7]

I just wanted to chime in to address one point raised in this thread, saying that light damage even on a fully decked out FvS is pitiful.

In case any of you have never tried the epic destiny ability divine wrath from the exalted angel build, I urge you to check it out. Having your lantern out to continuously and automatically keep up the stacks of ardor needed to be able to use this ability, you only have to wait for the cooldown.

This one ability can damage mobs, and heal the surrounding party members at the same time. It practically acts like a remote castable radiant servant positive energy burst. You can just ditch mass heal, and use this in raids where melee are busy beating on one single boss, surrounding him.

I know elite shroud is not what most of you consider to be a challenge, but you can in fact solo heal that quest with using this single ability, as both of the healing heavy fights have this pattern, one boss standing in the middle, with every melee (who require the bulk of your healing anyway) standing around him bashing away.

Just drop this nuke on the boss, and while it does nice damage, it also acts like you have thrown a mass heal on the group at the same time.

And let me tell you, even though it is not top dps compared to draconic energy bursts or the sum of all shiradi tidbits, it does crit for some sweet numbers occasionally. Additionally you can easily upkeep a fully stacked divine punishment (the light based DOT) next to these nukes.

So if you have the required twitch skills (it does require good timing of abilities), you can ditch out very nice dps, and keep a raid healed at the same time. Thats nothing to scowl at imho.

Cogdoc

Divine Wraith has the problem of competing for charges with Rebuke Foe, which is a stronger power in boss situations. Divine Wraith deals around 1k on a non-crit (your mileage may vary). Crits up that around 40%. On a 15s cd, that amounts to perhaps ~100dps (being a little generous and assuming you do a bit better then 1k non-crit average).

Fully staking rebuke foe nets +25% physical and light damage from all sources on the target. That is virtually assured to be better dps. Heck, your dp probably does a good 200+ dps, Rebuke nets an extra 50dps from that alone (nearly halfway to what Divine Wraith gives you). Any other light damage dealer or physical damage dealer will assure that rebuke is more damage. Once stacked, Rebuke only requires 5 charges every 30s to keep up, so you can still fire off the occasional divine wraith (bearing in mind that it is far better to keep rebuke up). And, naturally, if you have multiple Exalted Angels, then keeping Rebuke up doesn't have the same impact via the opportunity cost. But alone, I generally just end up keeping rebuke up and using good old mass heal / mass cure for AoE heals. And the 25% physical vulnerability means I am still the highest dps in the group without even attacking, :P

[ForumAccess]

]And let me tell you, even though it is not top dps compared to draconic energy bursts or the sum of all shiradi tidbits, it does crit for some sweet numbers occasionally. Additionally you can easily upkeep a fully stacked divine punishment (the light based DOT) next to these nukes.

So if you have the required twitch skills (it does require good timing of abilities), you can ditch out very nice dps, and keep a raid healed at the same time. Thats nothing to scowl at imho.

Assuming you have spell power maxed out and everything, the average damage on Holy Wrath is 950, and the cooldown is 15 seconds. This is less damage than a melee Favored Soul with a maxed out ED is going to be doing on critical hits, which will have an expected rate much higher than 1:15sec.

The average damage from the Lantern Archon is 160 every 2 seconds, unless they have adjusted the 50% spell power penalty recently. This is less damage than a melee FvS will be doing on each swing, and far less frequent. Even add in Divine Punishment and your damage is still quite far behind.

Before eGH I really loved my caster Favored Soul, but it was never really for the light damage capabilities. Those were simply one tool in the bag. But now that save DCs are effectively outside of the range that I can reliably achieve the build is no longer very viable. Which is not to say that I can not still get completions. Just that I am not contributing to them on that character nearly as much as I would be on another of my characters. I am waiting to see what the new content is like before I Reincarnate her and join the others grabbing Falchions or Axes.

With so much of the power coming from Epic Destinies, it really makes melee Favored Souls even more viable than they ever have been before.

[Mellkor]

All I can say is that before ED's came out, based on my own experience, a well built and well played melee FvS could survive better than any toon while doing 60 to 70% of the damage a good melee toon puts out to a single mob in elite quests AND all the while fully capable of healing the group through any quest/raid. Now it is more like 20 to 25% because to get the same survivability I had before in epic quests I have to be in destinies that focus on defense. My melee FvS is simply not as fun or as effective as he once was, relatively speaking. And I have tried all sorts of ways to get him back on par. It is kinda sad for me as my melee FvS was my favorite for a long while.

[Ancient]

Assuming you have spell power maxed out and everything, the average damage on Holy Wrath is 950, and the cooldown is 15 seconds. This is less damage than a melee Favored Soul with a maxed out ED is going to be doing on critical hits, which will have an expected rate much higher than 1:15sec.

The average damage from the Lantern Archon is 160 every 2 seconds, unless they have adjusted the 50% spell power penalty recently. This is less damage than a melee FvS will be doing on each swing, and far less frequent. Even add in Divine Punishment and your damage is still quite far behind.
Direct damage FVS is no longer tier 1 min/max, even for a first life build. That is a pretty strong statement to be made by someone with a link to a guide on direct damage FVS in their sig!

That said, it is still far from the "worst possible" build. The key thing to remember is that divine wrath/archon/divine punishment can all be kept up and still leave a lot of time left for pushing other buttons.

Lets look at light charges first. If I am correct, Divine wrath clears the charges and then adds 1 because it is a light spell. That means you need 9 charges in the next 15 seconds. Archon alone gets you 7-8 charges during that time and divine punishment will get you the rest. End result, divine wrath is almost a cast every 15 seconds without worrying about the charges as long as archon is up.

Rebuke requires less charges. Between avenging light and searing light, a FVS can get about 1 charge a second pretty easily. They could do more if nimbus of LIGHT counted as a LIGHT spell. This means that a FVS has enough light spells to power both rebuke and divine wrath.

For NovaSoul, I tended to fill the in between time with boulder toss, wild shot and avenging light. Before Epic giant hold, this was often "good enough" because the spike damage would kill "stuff" and the recharge timer was spent running to the next mob. It worked well... very well. In Epic giant hold, things have enough hp that the spike doesn't always kill stuff... and then the recast timers hurt.

For anything lower than EE, it still steamrolls over content. Even for EE, it has a lot of staying power and is very well rounded. But it isn't toe to toe with something like a Jugg build, monkcher or well build shiradi or tons of other tier 1 builds.

I've got my next build, but I'm waiting on the enhancement pass to actually go live.

[Veles]

Direct damage FVS is no longer tier 1 min/max, even for a first life build. That is a pretty strong statement to be made by someone with a link to a guide on direct damage FVS in their sig!
It never was, stop kidding yourself, unless you mean super slow completion of the easiest MoTU quests.


For anything lower than EE, it still steamrolls over content.
Everything does.

Even for EE, it has a lot of staying power and is very well rounded. But it isn't toe to toe with something like a Jugg build, monkcher or well build shiradi or tons of other tier 1 builds.
This might be a little understatement.

I hate to say the obvious because I am/was a huge fan of Divine casting but with high saves,monster hps, non melee divines are just getting carried through quests by stronger toons.
In **** group, yes hjealbotting is still necessary for completion and divine is essential.

[Ancient]

It never was, stop kidding yourself, unless you mean super slow completion of the easiest MoTU quests.
Reality Check: For a first life with junk gear to be able to solo complete EE at all places a build in the top portion of the pack. I also did it without potions or leaving the quest for shrines. My completion times rivaled the early completion times posted by shiradi's and Nicholas EIN FVS. Jugg's weren't posted on the board at the time, and Monkchers are a gear/past life intensive build.

I don't dispute the MoTU EE's are easier than GH, but GH wasn't even out during the time period I was talking about.

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

The average damage from the Lantern Archon is 160 every 2 seconds, unless they have adjusted the 50% spell power penalty recently. This is less damage than a melee FvS will be doing on each swing, and far less frequent.

Nothing is lower DPS than someone not knowing how to play a class. The above line speaks for itself. You're comparing a melee's main attack to something that adds by your numbers 80 DPS that is completely free in terms of not only button presses but also actions/attacks/cooldowns. If you walk about watching your Archon plink stuff then you're doing it wrong... If you're not then you're making an intentionally disingenuous comparison between supplemental nearly free DPS and the main attacks of a melee. I strongly suspect you don't actually walk around watching your shoulder zapper so that leaves the other option I suppose... I suppose it's also possible that you could admit it was just a botched comparison and not intentionally disingenuous.

In any case a melee soul that isn't using the Archon is a tool anyway; what Melee doesn't want an nearly free 80 extra DPS?

All I know is that while healing actively as my #1 priority and without any Shiradi yet (still working my way over) I still end up in the middle of the kill count in EE using mostly direct damage and often at the top of the count in EH (due to the increased effectiveness of Implosion and BB's of course.) A melee soul might very well do better, I have no doubts, but will almost certainly be a worse healer unless the player playing it is fabulously skilled, and also well geared. Simply because A) doing well at melee requires more attention to movement and facing the mobs optimally for cleaves and just generally not swinging at air B) knockdowns, trips, stuns, AOE CC's in the scrum, C) situational awareness is much lower inside the pile (at least for me and I suspect most other average players).. You often can't go find the dead guy to throw a raise, or get the Wiz who's on the outskirts but slightly out of range a quick heal without moving toward them...

If you don't try to move towards them and habitually don't heal casters or raise anyone that's outside the pile you're not much of a healer...

Now I am really curious to add Shiradi procs to all this, if I can get their before they nerf it or my enhancements...

Now onto some of the other comments in this thread, specifically the "I suppose if you need a hjealer for bad groups it's not too bad" stuff:

If you play a game where healing is irrelevant because you do hand picked guild only BYOH or static groups or solo only and you never need a healer, then great for you, but please consider that your circumstances are unusual before you offer opinions on how the actual game plays and what is effective in most of the game for most people. I'm sorry but having perfectly optimal parties full of people you know who are all totally self sufficient and never need outside healing is far from a relevant or even plausible expectation to bring to the 99% of the game that the rest of us play.

(Yeah I realize that the people making those comments are in all likelihood just trying to make themselves out to be "so elite they don't want a gimp healer in their group" but I'm humoring them for now, even though the continued claims have the silly boa****l feeling of someone who's just baiting everyone so they can beat their chest about how uber they are.)

[Xeno5k]

Recently, what I've noticed is that even though I'm great dps in certain EEs and certain Raids melee is just not an option for me. I have to stand back and be a healbot because having keep myself alive will waste even more sp. I guess that's one of the advantages of being a true melee, you don't have to switch to a less fun role.


The problem with the melee build in general is that it isn't a good party build. FVS melee dps isn't even 1/4th of a real melee build.

Its just that 1/4 thing bugs me, I can tell you from experience that that's not the case on a well built melee. The real number is more around 70% of the damage of a similarly geared "true melee." You get overwhelming critical and momentum swing and you'll have no problem bringing stuff down.

[Snapdragoon]

through multiple lives, and I would consider it the tank/ heals / DP kind of build.

the way I see it there are better builds for being a self sustained melee. I know what people are looking for when they have a cleric / FvS icon in the lfm, they want someone that can keep the red bars full. I am well aware that "a divine can do much more then just heal" I know, I really do know. but heres what it comes down to:

if every class would just do their job perfect we wont have a problem. I am the healer, that is what I do, I heal the barbarian's, fighters, monks, etc. if they die they are no longer contributing DPS, if they have to stop to scroll heal themselves, they are no longer contributing DPS, if they have to run away because the healer is trying to kite mobs instead of heal they are no longer contributing to DPS.

I don't expect melee's to go anywhere my character would not go, in a shroud I am next to harry with them, I center heals on myself so I can stay targeted on harry to use the exalted angel orbital strike when its up. this is leading by example, if they want heals they should be doing damage, and if they are doing damage I have NO PROBLEM chasing you down to keep you alive, I have wings, I can keep up.

there are builds for self sustained melee, I recommend cleric dilli monks, WF jug build, paladins, warchanter bards, etc. there are also self sufficient casters, WF sorcs, FvS dilli sorc, PM wizards, etc.

I am not saying divines are not good casters, and im not saying people should not strive to be fairly self sufficient. im saying know your role, and know the roles of the class, and don't get mad if people become perturbed because you do not play the role of your class.

if your a barb, I expect you to kill stuff dead very fast
if your a sorc I expect you to nuke trash to oblivion
if your a cleric I expect you to heal the group
if your a paladin I expect you to be useless and pike

that's just the way the classes work ^_^

EDIT: BTW dark grey over grey background sucks to try and type a post in, this is stupid X(

[WruntJunior]

Recently, what I've noticed is that even though I'm great dps in certain EEs and certain Raids melee is just not an option for me. I have to stand back and be a healbot because having keep myself alive will waste even more sp. I guess that's one of the advantages of being a true melee, you don't have to switch to a less fun role.



Its just that 1/4 thing bugs me, I can tell you from experience that that's not the case on a well built melee. The real number is more around 70% of the damage of a similarly geared "true melee." You get overwhelming critical and momentum swing and you'll have no problem bringing stuff down.

Agreed - in my experience playing a "real melee" and a melee FvS (which, interestingly enough, mine is not currently - but for reasons unrelated to damage, and having more to do with saves and being irritated with how people treat anyone with a FvS/cleric symbol by their name), a melee FvS is around 70-80% of an equivalently geared melee, and the distance between a melee FvS and "real melee" actually feels closer post-u14 - EDs are so powerful that they are quite good at bridging the gap. Unfortunately, many people that play melee FvS tend to do so in weaker destinies, or quite simply tend to be inept melee (this is a long-standing curse of FvS, lasting as far back as I have played - WF FvS on my server, in my experience, used to be assumed bad until proven otherwise due to the magnitude of bad melee FvS players). The biggest problem with melee FvS now is they wind up spread thin - you have to specialize in a more melee-focused playstyle or a more caster-focused playstyle (even as a melee FvS, to gain more damage from spells and be better at healing parties - the more melee-focused style of melee FvS tends to wind up with too little SP and otherwise limited resources to truly be effective as much more than a Paladin (though it can do pretty much identical damage through some casting and have similar survivability, just in a different style)) to get the most out of it.

Interestingly enough, the curve of melee FvS play is one reason why builds like the Juggernaut are so popular - they wind up with the survivability (and then some), the damage (slightly higher melee damage + manyshot ability winds up eclipsing FvS damage with EDs), and none of the drawbacks of the FvS symbol - this is a direct reason for why the melee FvS population has dwindled.

[Xeno5k]

Interestingly enough, the curve of melee FvS play is one reason why builds like the Juggernaut are so popular - they wind up with the survivability (and then some), the damage (slightly higher melee damage + manyshot ability winds up eclipsing FvS damage with EDs), and none of the drawbacks of the FvS symbol - this is a direct reason for why the melee FvS population has dwindled.

Yeah I totally agree, it took me forever to learn how to properly use my melee FVS. When I first stated I thought getting 60 damage per swing on a falchion was amazing dps (yes I know that sounds bad), now months later I'm finally able to pull off 3k crits. I imagine a Jugg would be much easier to play since its more focused.

[scoobmx]

Interestingly enough, the curve of melee FvS play is one reason why builds like the Juggernaut are so popular - they wind up with the survivability (and then some), the damage (slightly higher melee damage + manyshot ability winds up eclipsing FvS damage with EDs), and none of the drawbacks of the FvS symbol - this is a direct reason for why the melee FvS population has dwindled.

I'm not sure precisely what you think gives the juggernaut more survivability and melee damage? If anything the benefit of the Juggernaut is in the ranged damage and unique buffs an Arty brings to the party. You can gear and ED a melee FVS in the same way as a Juggernaut, get deadly from your friendly party Arty, and the difference comes down to battle engineer vs beloved of the Lord of Blades and Greatsword Specialization, which give you way more damage than battle engineer. Similarly for survivability, you not only have more heals available to cycle for yourself but also wings. This is just my perspective, but I see WF FVS as sacrificing the ranged physical capability of Juggernaut to gain ranged spell damage (energy drain which is thousands of hit points effectively on the first cast, and of course divine punishment) party heals, divine buffs, and slightly better melee damage and survivability. The FVS build is probably a bit more button-mashy of course.

[TheLegendOfAra]

I'm not sure precisely what you think gives the juggernaut more survivability and melee damage? If anything the benefit of the Juggernaut is in the ranged damage and unique buffs an Arty brings to the party. You can gear and ED a melee FVS in the same way as a Juggernaut, get deadly from your friendly party Arty, and the difference comes down to battle engineer vs beloved of the Lord of Blades and Greatsword Specialization, which give you way more damage than battle engineer. Similarly for survivability, you not only have more heals available to cycle for yourself but also wings. This is just my perspective, but I see WF FVS as sacrificing the ranged physical capability of Juggernaut to gain ranged spell damage (energy drain which is thousands of hit points effectively on the first cast, and of course divine punishment) party heals, divine buffs, and slightly better melee damage and survivability. The FVS build is probably a bit more button-mashy of course.

If I can derail for a moment:

What he's saying here is that both his jugg and his melee fvs are gimp, and really he should just reroll them into a ranger.
Poor Scoob just doesn't know it.

[WruntJunior]

I'm not sure precisely what you think gives the juggernaut more survivability and melee damage? If anything the benefit of the Juggernaut is in the ranged damage and unique buffs an Arty brings to the party. You can gear and ED a melee FVS in the same way as a Juggernaut, get deadly from your friendly party Arty, and the difference comes down to battle engineer vs beloved of the Lord of Blades and Greatsword Specialization, which give you way more damage than battle engineer. Similarly for survivability, you not only have more heals available to cycle for yourself but also wings. This is just my perspective, but I see WF FVS as sacrificing the ranged physical capability of Juggernaut to gain ranged spell damage (energy drain which is thousands of hit points effectively on the first cast, and of course divine punishment) party heals, divine buffs, and slightly better melee damage and survivability. The FVS build is probably a bit more button-mashy of course.

Juggernaut loses spell damage for the most part, but gains higher melee damage (from buffs) and ranged damage from manyshot. With EDs, this gives favor to Juggernaut, especially in EE content where running out of spellpoints is a realistic concern for maintaining spell damage.

Juggernaut has very similar survivability, due to at least as easy access to saves (if you play the paladin version, even easier, though your DPS suffers slightly) and generally more HP, along with typically having more PRR - Reconstruct and Heal are really in about the same category for instant self-heal, so being able to take more hits makes up for not having wings to avoid a few hits, while also gaining damage from not winging away (which causes reduced melee damage).

Trust me, this comes from playing the same character with a roughly equivalent level of well-geared as both a Juggernaut and a melee FvS (as well as a Paladin, but that's a different kettle entirely - it gains more in survivability while being only at best a little better melee damage than the Juggernaut).

[jalont]

Juggernaut loses spell damage for the most part, but gains higher melee damage (from buffs) and ranged damage from manyshot. With EDs, this gives favor to Juggernaut, especially in EE content where running out of spellpoints is a realistic concern for maintaining spell damage.

Juggernaut has very similar survivability, due to at least as easy access to saves (if you play the paladin version, even easier, though your DPS suffers slightly) and generally more HP, along with typically having more PRR - Reconstruct and Heal are really in about the same category for instant self-heal, so being able to take more hits makes up for not having wings to avoid a few hits, while also gaining damage from not winging away (which causes reduced melee damage).

Trust me, this comes from playing the same character with a roughly equivalent level of well-geared as both a Juggernaut and a melee FvS (as well as a Paladin, but that's a different kettle entirely - it gains more in survivability while being only at best a little better melee damage than the Juggernaut).

Mathematically, with an artie in the party, a horc soul has better melee dps than a jugg. I've found that sometimes things that work on paper don't actually transfer to game though. So, any idea why a jugg comes out on top?

[WruntJunior]

Mathematically, with an artie in the party, a horc soul has better melee dps than a jugg. I've found that sometimes things that work on paper don't actually transfer to game though. So, any idea why a jugg comes out on top?

Battle Engineer 1 (+2 enhancement bonus and +2 seeker) + Tensers (I've almost never seen a melee FvS keep this up, while almost every Jugg keeps it going, so that's +4 Str) put a Juggernaut behind by only a couple damage. Add in ranged capabilities and things start looking better for Juggernaut.

Also worth noting a Juggernaut can make a displacement scroll approach the usefulness of a displacement clickie - it's a 1 minute buff.

Almost missing having a Juggernaut from all this Jugg talk. >_>

[zwiebelring]

Yeah I totally agree, it took me forever to learn how to properly use my melee FVS. When I first stated I thought getting 60 damage per swing on a falchion was amazing dps (yes I know that sounds bad), now months later I'm finally able to pull off 3k crits. I imagine a Jugg would be much easier to play since its more focused.
The effort to keep up Tenser's on a FvS is higher than just ignoring it. Artificer's got a wonderful synergy for solo playerstyle and independant gameplay: longer duration on consumables.

High UMD on a FvS still needs some work, e.g., gear swapping which is annoying incombat. Every minute using a scroll vs. every 1,5 to 2 min. is a big difference.

Then the playstlye from offensive twitching melee into occasional melee and inbetween turtling-up.

edit: just found a better way to describe, why I changed and what is killing fun for me regarding melee FvS:

All I can say is that before ED's came out, based on my own experience, a well built and well played melee FvS could survive better than any toon while doing 60 to 70% of the damage a good melee toon puts out to a single mob in elite quests AND all the while fully capable of healing the group through any quest/raid. Now it is more like 20 to 25% because to get the same survivability I had before in epic quests I have to be in destinies that focus on defense. My melee FvS is simply not as fun or as effective as he once was, relatively speaking. And I have tried all sorts of ways to get him back on par. It is kinda sad for me as my melee FvS was my favorite for a long while.

Mellkor summed it up very well. I didn't build an esos (or any endgame melee weapon on that matter) for occasional meleeing!