Wolf form and Weapon type question

[Nuckin]

I have searched around and Haven't really been able to find the info I need, I've been away from the game for awhile so missed a lot.

My questions are, does the type of weapon a druid uses matter at all if using wolf form? Also what Improved crit would I take since wolf form changes the damage type to slashing/piercing?

[unbongwah]

My questions are, does the type of weapon a druid uses matter at all if using wolf form?The base dmg and crit profile is based on your animal form, not the weapon type, so those aren't a factor. I think +[W] bonuses carry over into animal form, inc. from Shillelagh on wooden weapons, but don't quote me on that. :p Remember that direct dmg effects like Flaming, Holy, etc. only carry over from your main-hand weapon; so only the static bonuses from your offhand weapon or shield matter (e.g., Seeker, Stability, spellpower, etc.). If you're playing a Drunk and want to be centered, you need to use ki weapons; a pair of kamas works well because you can use the offhand kama to provide extra bonuses.

Also what Improved crit would I take since wolf form changes the damage type to slashing/piercing?
Animal-form atks count as unarmed, which falls under Blunt weapons, so take IC:Blunt.

[Darkrok]

Everything unbongwah said is correct to my knowledge, including the [w] bonuses carrying over from Shillelagh but maybe not - the display says that it's not carrying over but in-game damage seems to say it is.

What I'll add though is that even if you don't splash monk levels there's a strong argument for handwraps. Handwraps have many methods of raising their [w] number that DO carry over to wolf form. Dance of Flowers, monk past life feat, reinforced fists on gear, high [w] on the weapon itself...all these things carry over. I've confirmed w/ in-game damage numbers as well as the in-game display. For my toon right now I get 0.5[w] from reinforced fists, 1.5[w] from dance of flowers, and 2[w] from my wraps. The total comes out to 5[w] but that's not 5d6 like a normal monk gets...that's 5d10 as a winter wolf. I could go to EE adamantine knuckles and get that up to 6.5[w]. Given the outstanding crit profile on winter wolf with improved crit: bludgeoning (17-20x3 before ED's/other abilities) raising that base damage has a very large effect on outgoing damage.

From an itemization standpoint having 2 weapons or a weapon with a shield makes things MUCH easier. From a PRR standpoint having the shield is very nice as well. But just from my experience with the numbers and playing it wraps are the way to go on a wolf.

[Nuckin]

Ok helped a lot but still confused a bit.. Does that mean that TOD rings work in wolf form? I remember them only working for monks before..

And can you explain the monk thing a little bit better lol I splashed 2 levels and wraps seems like a nice way to go, right now I'm using a scimi and wooden shield.. Hear going shield and taking the masteries to get the DS chance is a good way to go and that it stacks with the natural fighting DS chance? Confused on how u were raising your wrap dmg, never really played a monk before so don't understand the references lol

Thx for the help so far guys, much appreciated.

[Darkrok]

Now, to clarify my experience with non-wraps and [w] on the item...

The display on these don't actually show the [w] modifier like they do on wraps so it's hard to tell. When I have my wraps on and I change to LD for example the improved power attack makes my display go from 5.0[w] to 5.5[w]. But this effect doesn't carry over to weapons I equip. The question becomes does the game assign the damage to the weapon itself on non-wraps (as the display would indicate it does) or does it internally do it as [w] damage? To clarify this question, one of my kama's is an epic vorpal - 2.5[w] damage. But on the display it just shows 6-19 damage (which is 2.5d6). Now, that could just be how it displays it and we're getting 2.5[w] from the weapon or it could be true that the game views it as 6-19 damage instead of 2.5[w].

I just ran some tests and here's my opinion based on some limited numbers. I did two runs on a helpless dummy - one with my +6 2[w] wraps and one with +4 2.5[w] kamas. The numbers were pretty clear - the kamas ran 58-92 damage with an average in the 75 area. The wraps ran 64-105 with an average around 86. It's clear that we're doing less with the kamas equipped. The spread is just too extreme to discount. That said, I confirmed the following with pretty clear numbers as well:

Dance of Flowers +1.5[w] damage works on kamas and wraps alike
I would say that these support Shillelagh as well but lack the weapons to confirm this satisfactorily.
The effect on reinforced fists is too small for me to make a call.

My opinion based on this is that [w] damage ON the weapon is the only thing that doesn't thing to carry over. The +4 kama's don't seem to add 2.5[w] versus completely unarmed...they only seem to add +4 damage. But they also don't seem to lose anything such as the damage from Dance of Flowers.

tl;dr From my experiments it looks like at worst handwraps are 1[w] better than using other weapons. Depending on ED's/class abilities it's possible that it could be a bigger spread than 1[w] but it's not likely. Furthermore, EE adamantine knuckles would be 2.5[w] extra damage versus a non-wrap weapon. That's an average of 13.75 extra damage per hit versus a non-wrap weapon. This is all based on impressions and some very small sample size tests, YMMV.

[Darkrok]

Does that mean that TOD rings work in wolf form?

Just tested this on the dummy. I can confirm that centered or not, TOD rings work in wolf form.


Hear going shield and taking the masteries to get the DS chance is a good way to go and that it stacks with the natural fighting DS chance?

All this is true. I did not go this way but it is an effective way to both raise double-strike and get some PRR.


Confused on how u were raising your wrap dmg, never really played a monk before so don't understand the references

A Dance of Flowers is part of the Grand Master of Flowers Epic Destiny. It adds 1.5[w] to unarmed damage (which includes wolf/bear/woad? forms). For normal monks that means that they get 1.5 x 1d6 extra damage. For a Winter Wolf that's 1.5 x 1d10 extra damage.
Reinforced Fists is a property on several items that adds 0.5[w] damage to unarmed attacks which adds half of 1d10 extra damage for Winter Wolves.
Most epic wraps have 2[w] damage on them which adds an additional 1d10 damage for Winter Wolves.
Epic Elite Adamantine Knuckles have 3.5[w] damage on them which adds 2.5 x 1d10 extra damage for Winter Wolves.

[Darkrok]

By the way, all of my tests seem to have shown about 11 points of damage difference between my +6 2[w] wraps and my +4 2.5[w] kamas. I can not explain this difference through any game mechanics that make sense and have to write it off as a small sample size. If I'm right that it's just the [w] on the weapon that doesn't come across then one would expect 1d10 + 2 less damage here for an average difference of 7.5 a hit. Incidentally, if it's reinforced fists that don't stack then the numbers come out awful close to what we'd expect - 1.5[w] +2 difference would be 10.25 per hit. Despite all logic saying that if A Dance of Flowers stacks - which it almost certainly does from my test of kamas - then Reinforced Fists should as well I'd lean toward saying that it doesn't. My multiple tests all seem to show a spread of about 11 points of damage between unarmed and wraps with reinforced equipped. Again though, 0.5[w] is so small that it's hard to say anything for certain the way I can with the 1.5[w] from A Dance of Flowers.

[unbongwah]

And can you explain the monk thing a little bit better lol I splashed 2 levels and wraps seems like a nice way to go, right now I'm using a scimi and wooden shield.. Hear going shield and taking the masteries to get the DS chance is a good way to go and that it stacks with the natural fighting DS chance?
Playing a wolf build is all about raising your doublestrike. Natural Fighting feats add +6% per feat (+18% max); Imp Shield Mastery adds 8% (plus PRR); Wind Stance also boosts your doublestrike. But if you use a shield, you're uncentered, so you have to decide early on if you're going the S&B / SM route or the Drunk / Wind route for your wolf build.

Pros of the S&B route: can stay pure for capstone (+2d6 SA and lower spell cooldown), PRR from Shield Mastery feats (and armor since presumably you're wearing lt or med instead of robes), +0.5[W] from Shillelagh cast on 1H wooden weapon will carry over, total doublestrike should be higher than splashed drunk (8% from ISM vs 2.5% Wind I + 3% RwW).

Pros of the "drunken wolf" route: can use Stunning Fist, no feats req'd (vs ISM takes two), two extra feats + Evasion (presuming at least monk 2).

EDIT: note that you can also choose to play a "S&B Drunk." You're uncentered so you lose stances and monk atks; but you still benefit from those two extra feats and Evasion (as long as you don't wear med or hvy armor).

[SerPounce]

Now, to clarify my experience with non-wraps and [w] on the item...

The display on these don't actually show the [w] modifier like they do on wraps so it's hard to tell. When I have my wraps on and I change to LD for example the improved power attack makes my display go from 5.0[w] to 5.5[w]. But this effect doesn't carry over to weapons I equip. The question becomes does the game assign the damage to the weapon itself on non-wraps (as the display would indicate it does) or does it internally do it as [w] damage? To clarify this question, one of my kama's is an epic vorpal - 2.5[w] damage. But on the display it just shows 6-19 damage (which is 2.5d6). Now, that could just be how it displays it and we're getting 2.5[w] from the weapon or it could be true that the game views it as 6-19 damage instead of 2.5[w].

I just ran some tests and here's my opinion based on some limited numbers. I did two runs on a helpless dummy - one with my +6 2[w] wraps and one with +4 2.5[w] kamas. The numbers were pretty clear - the kamas ran 58-92 damage with an average in the 75 area. The wraps ran 64-105 with an average around 86. It's clear that we're doing less with the kamas equipped. The spread is just too extreme to discount. That said, I confirmed the following with pretty clear numbers as well:

Dance of Flowers +1.5[w] damage works on kamas and wraps alike
I would say that these support Shillelagh as well but lack the weapons to confirm this satisfactorily.
The effect on reinforced fists is too small for me to make a call.

My opinion based on this is that [w] damage ON the weapon is the only thing that doesn't thing to carry over. The +4 kama's don't seem to add 2.5[w] versus completely unarmed...they only seem to add +4 damage. But they also don't seem to lose anything such as the damage from Dance of Flowers.

tl;dr From my experiments it looks like at worst handwraps are 1[w] better than using other weapons. Depending on ED's/class abilities it's possible that it could be a bigger spread than 1[w] but it's not likely. Furthermore, EE adamantine knuckles would be 2.5[w] extra damage versus a non-wrap weapon. That's an average of 13.75 extra damage per hit versus a non-wrap weapon. This is all based on impressions and some very small sample size tests, YMMV.

That's some great testing, thanks for doing that! Very useful in planning druid builds. You ought to make a DDO wiki entry with this info, it's pretty critical.

[Darkrok]

That's some great testing, thanks for doing that! Very useful in planning druid builds. You ought to make a DDO wiki entry with this info, it's pretty critical.

That's the problem...the ideas I was testing were good...the sample sizes and methodology not so much. That's why everything I posted should be taken with both a grain of salt and as an invitation to anyone in the mood to do so to do much more extensive and well-controlled tests.

[Dorian]

What I'll add though is that even if you don't splash monk levels there's a strong argument for handwraps. Handwraps have many methods of raising their [w] number that DO carry over to wolf form. Dance of Flowers, monk past life feat, reinforced fists on gear, high [w] on the weapon itself...all these things carry over. I've confirmed w/ in-game damage numbers as well as the in-game display. For my toon right now I get 0.5[w] from reinforced fists, 1.5[w] from dance of flowers, and 2[w] from my wraps. The total comes out to 5[w] but that's not 5d6 like a normal monk gets...that's 5d10 as a winter wolf. I could go to EE adamantine knuckles and get that up to 6.5[w]. Given the outstanding crit profile on winter wolf with improved crit: bludgeoning (17-20x3 before ED's/other abilities) raising that base damage has a very large effect on outgoing damage.

I thought there was a bug with splashing monk levels and being in wolf form. It uses the 1d6 base damage from your 2 monk levels and not the 1d10 from from winter wolf.

Can anyone confirm if this has been fixed? Or was I just misinformed.

And are you 100% sure that the handwrap [w] bonuses (from adamantine knuckles) get applied when in wolf form? (I know that dance of flowers works... just asking about handwraps)

[Darkrok]

I thought there was a bug with splashing monk levels and being in wolf form. It uses the 1d6 base damage from your 2 monk levels and not the 1d10 from from winter wolf.

Can anyone confirm if this has been fixed? Or was I just misinformed.

And are you 100% sure that the handwrap [w] bonuses (from adamantine knuckles) get applied when in wolf form? (I know that dance of flowers works... just asking about handwraps)

That doesn't seem to be the case for me from a display perspective at least. I get the display changing from 5[1d6] to 5[1d10]. That said I'm 9 monk so I actually get 2[1d6] instead of 1d6 when I'm not in form. That could have something to do with it.