Pure Bard (human) advice needed.

[smckelv]

Hey thought I would help get some bard discussion going in the new forum. Please help me with advice toward a pure human bard warchanter THF. This is a heroic build 1st TR (34 pts). I am at level 9 already and I have tomes str/con +3 and INT/CHA +2 from a past Pally life.

My goal is decent DPS, melee support with songs, UMD and off heals, some CC. Probably to level 22 and TR

Couple of questions:
- Feats? I think I am at power attack, toughness, thf, weapon focus: slash, extend spell right now
- Seems like folks splash 2 fighter or barb for WC. DO I have to? What do I do differently if I don't?
- Can I use Ottos Irresist dance later (effectively) without being virtuoso? How do I plan that?

Thanks in advance,
Baldornix (lvl 9 Bard)

[smckelv]

Edit: with the old forum links gone, I had used this to guide my build (it is outdated).

http://ddowiki.com/page/Starting_a_Bard

[Soulfurnace]

Edit: with the old forum links gone, I had used this to guide my build (it is outdated).

http://ddowiki.com/page/Starting_a_Bard

I haven't found any forum links gone, just changed. You can fix it by changing /en/ (or /de/ or.. whatever it may be) to /forums/
After that, the 404 errors tend to stop.

In relation to bards, can't be of use, but hey.. if adding /forums/ fixes the links, then you'll be able to get the builds! AND I can claim credit.

[Rull]

Hey thought I would help get some bard discussion going in the new forum. Please help me with advice toward a pure human bard warchanter THF. This is a heroic build 1st TR (34 pts). I am at level 9 already and I have tomes str/con +3 and INT/CHA +2 from a past Pally life.

My goal is decent DPS, melee support with songs, UMD and off heals, some CC. Probably to level 22 and TR

Couple of questions:
- Feats? I think I am at power attack, toughness, thf, weapon focus: slash, extend spell right now
- Seems like folks splash 2 fighter or barb for WC. DO I have to? What do I do differently if I don't?
- Can I use Ottos Irresist dance later (effectively) without being virtuoso? How do I plan that?

Thanks in advance,
Baldornix (lvl 9 Bard)

If your goals are more or less in that order, I figure you are not a fully DC geared max CHA build with all enchantment foci or anything like that... in that case, you might as well give up on DC at all, irresistible dance and perform are your primary CC and neither use your DC anyway. So there is really no point in going pure bard for the capstone... bard level 17 to 20 just doesn't give you much. Use the 4 class levels to get the feats you need and whatever else you may want.
For THF I always advice:

16bard/2fighter/2rogue THF +evasion
+Power Attack
+THF
+Cleave
+gCleave
+Overwhelming Critical (E)
+Critical Slashing
*Maximize
*Empower Heal
*Quicken
*Extend
>Toughness
>Inspire Excellence (E)

or

16bard/2fighter/2ranger THF +rangedSplash
+Power Attack
+THF
+Cleave
+gCleave
+Manyshot
+Overwhelming Critical (E)
+Critical Slashing
*Maximize
*Quicken
*Extend (or critical: ranged)
>Toughness
>Inspire Excellence (E)

spellsingers are the best warchanters.

I guess, if you really want to go warchanter, for flavor or something:

16bard/2fighter/2rogue THF +evasion
+Power Attack
+THF
+Cleave
+gCleave
+Overwhelming Critical (E)
+Critical Slashing
*Maximize
*Quicken
*Extend
>Toughness
>Inspire Excellence (E)
>Weapon Focus Slashing for prereq

or

17bard/2fighter/1wizard THF, if you really don't care for evasion
+Power Attack
+THF
+Cleave
+gCleave
+Overwhelming Critical (E)
+Critical Slashing
*Maximize
*Empower Heal
*Quicken
*Extend
>Toughness
>Inspire Excellence (E)
>Weapon Focus Slashing for prereq

[painindaguild]

^ zthis + 16/2/2 bard/barb/fight

sprint boost
pa enh.
10% ms boost
couple of rages for boss fights. also makes extend worth having.

1) Toughness, HB: Maximize
3) Power Attack
3) Fighter: Cleave
6) Extend
9) Great Cleave
12) Improved Critical: Slashing
13) Fighter: Two handed Fighting
15) Improved Two Handed Fighting
18) Quicken
21) IE
24) OC

you may swap in 2 extra toughness for the THF feats, in case you have trouble surviving.
Also scrolls are your friend. you can easely count on scrolls for backup heals, its just more costly.

[smckelv]

Thanks for the response. These look like good splash builds and it answers the main question about wanting to splash on a WC (since the capstone doesn't help).

Just in case a lurker wants to chime in...can someone explain the DC versus Pen on something like Ottos Irresistable and why/how WC's can do it without the much DC boost? At least thats what I'm reading.

Thanks again!

[Rull]

Thanks for the response. These look like good splash builds and it answers the main question about wanting to splash on a WC (since the capstone doesn't help).

Just in case a lurker wants to chime in...can someone explain the DC versus Pen on something like Ottos Irresistable and why/how WC's can do it without the much DC boost? At least thats what I'm reading.

Thanks again!

Otto's Irresistable dance does not use a DC. There is no save, so they called it "irresistable" because of that.
Ironically, what does work against it, is spell resistance. Most mobs in ddo have (literally) zero spell resistance so this isn't an issue. But some, like drow, do have it, and when they do they usually have a quite high resistance. To break high spell resistance you need high spell penetration.

So in short, Otto's Irresistable Dance is good with 0 DC because it doesn't use it.
OID is good even with 0 spell penetration because the vast majority of the mobs will still dance 100% of the time.
OID is even better with high spell penetration because then you can also dance the drow etc.

So it's just a question whether you want the put in the effort to get it high.
Going pure 20 instead of going 16/2/2 gives you +4 because it uses caster level.
There are three feats for it, giving +2, +2 and +4 (the last one being an epic feat and requiring the other two)
Past life wizard gives +1 up to +3 for 3 past lives.
A Greater spell pen item gives +3 (regualar spell pen gives +2)
For spending (cumulative) 2, total 6 or total 12 AP you get +1, +2 or +3
The magister and draconic destinies have abilites that give +3 (can be twisted)
Being magister, draconic or fatesinger gives +5 from caster level (as far as i understand it)
Caster-level-increasing gear or abilities raise it further (as far as i understand it)

In experience, if you are pure (+4) and in a caster destiny (+5, +3), from there you could consider 'going for' spell penetration by spending feats, twists, item slot and/or the effort to reincarnate for it, or a combination of these.
But if you don't, don't bother at all because a mediocre spell penetration won't let you dance anything that doesn't auto-dance already. Either go all the way (or at least a long way towards that) or none at all.

On a bard that also does DPS, I'd strongly advice none at all. Just use OID it to dance 90% of the mobs you encounter, and consider the other 10% immune to it and use fascinate on those.
The sacrifice of multiclassing + 3 feats + 6 AP, +2 twists +1 items, just to be able to dance that last 10% with still only a chance of success if you're in fury or dreadnought... doesn't sound like worth it to me.

That's not to say that spell pen on a bard is always bad... if you are max CHA DC-based, and therefore pure bard and in a caster destiny anyway... and you use Otto's Dancing Sphere as well, THEN going for spell penetration becomes both easier and more rewarding (it takes less sacrifice, and it benefits you more because it works on more spells)

[smckelv]

Thanks Rull, SO all or nothing, means nothing I guess. I have taken a level of fighter to go with the WC theme and its good to know I can count on otto's. I will also take level 11 as a fighter too and then continue on as bard. Seems to be heading toward 18/2 w/ fighter splash. I can already tell the advantage per martial feats, etc.

Some tidbits: I'm going to try and be useful in the UMD/scroll area. Looks like I'm at 24 at level 10. Any ideas of what the go-to scrollss that Bards like would be appreciated (besides raise dead and heal of course).

[Rull]

Thanks Rull, SO all or nothing, means nothing I guess. I have taken a level of fighter to go with the WC theme and its good to know I can count on otto's. I will also take level 11 as a fighter too and then continue on as bard. Seems to be heading toward 18/2 w/ fighter splash. I can already tell the advantage per martial feats, etc.

Some tidbits: I'm going to try and be useful in the UMD/scroll area. Looks like I'm at 24 at level 10. Any ideas of what the go-to scrollss that Bards like would be appreciated (besides raise dead and heal of course).

I try to hit 44 (including GH and shipbuff) to be able to cast Resurrection instead of raise dead. I've seen too many people go down the same second as they are raised because 10% hp just isnt enough.
I carry Greater Restoration (UMD44) as well to remove neglevels but hardly ever cast it, I guess it's worth the inventory slot if you hit 44 anyway but not a big deal if you don't.
UMD 41 for Adamantine Weapons scrolls is fun (although just 6 minutes and not usable on THF self)

But you don't really have to. Although I do recommend hitting 40 for reconstruct/heal, instead of just 36 (raise, teleport).
And UMD 40 is nice to have for 10minute Shield wands (but not a must, a nightshield clicky works just as good)

Keep in mind that you at least roll a 1, so having a umd of 43 gives you 100% on UMD44 scrolls.

But remember, it can't hurt to have more UMD either. Being able to Resurrection/Heal/Raise without buffs can be important: Half of your party, including you, dies. The healer gets you up first so you can help get other people up, but you just lost +6 from shipbuffs and GH nad have a death penalty giving additional penalties. I find this happening a significant amount of time. The rare occasions that you do need to use scrolls are often exactly these occasions when things are messy. UMD for scrolls is not as much about threshold like hitting umd20 for pure good weapons is. Not only because circumstances changes, but also because you'll still have 80% chance even when 4 points off. More is better, but don't sacrifice too much for it.

[darkovac]

So it's just a question whether you want the put in the effort to get it high.
Going pure 20 instead of going 16/2/2 gives you +4 because it uses caster level.
There are three feats for it, giving +2, +2 and +4 (the last one being an epic feat and requiring the other two)
Past life wizard gives +1 up to +3 for 3 past lives.
A Greater spell pen item gives +3 (regualar spell pen gives +2)
For spending (cumulative) 2, total 6 or total 12 AP you get +1, +2 or +3
The magister and draconic destinies have abilites that give +3 (can be twisted)
Being magister, draconic or fatesinger gives +5 from caster level (as far as i understand it)
Caster-level-increasing gear or abilities raise it further (as far as i understand it)


This information is not entirely true.
Pure bard would give you +4 SP from lvls and 2 from Capstone => 6SP
Wizard past lifes gives +2 SP per life up to 6
FvS past lifes give +1 SP per life up to 3

But never the less recommended Spell Penetration si quite high (don't know exact figures) so it's all or nothing.

[smckelv]

Just an update to my build thread. I am level 18 now with only 1/2 rank until taking level 20. My build is currently 16 bard/ 2 fighter. I am thinking about finishing with 2 rogue levels for evasion. Although I have spent most of this life as a warchanter prestige, I found often I would switch to spellsinger and enjoy instead the extra SP for healing and (some CC). This swap back and forth has been easily done with swapping a lvl 6 bard feat at Fred (Weapon focus: slashing for heighten/empower). This also has the added bonus of a "free" enhancement reset.

Style has been:
- Hit with biggest sword possible
- perma displace/haste
- Otto's irresistible on tough mobs, orange bosses.
- Healing (good crit profile and healing spell power=120)
- Otto's Sphere of dancing on hordes (mind fog + sphere and my DC of 28 is passing up until about CR23ish seems like)
- Shout or soundblast (heightened) will stun low fort casters

STR: 36
CON: 30
CHA: 30

Any comments on finishing out as and epic feats as (id have to swap iTHF for gCleave):
16bard/2fighter/2rogue THF +evasion
+Power Attack
+THF
+Cleave
+gCleave
+Overwhelming Critical (E)
+Critical Slashing
*Heighten
*Empower Heal
*Quicken
*Extend
>Toughness
>Inspire Excellence (E)

Concerns I have are that my Sphere will not hold up on even EH. DC is not something this build can go after, it just needs to serve it's purpose at the appropriate times. Also this pretty much commits to the Spellsinger for light armour/evasion and arcane spell failure issues. Any comments on evasion and not having a stellar reflex save are welcome.

Regards,
B

[smckelv]

My experience playing a bard in a group after lvl 14 or so was most excellent. No doubt, this is where the bard shines. I was able to buff the daylights out of my party members and still contribute myself in a meaningful way. Also, the bard has been the perfect character for saving groups from wipes (quick invisi, plenty of rez scrolls, and fascinate if it is really out of hand.) Solo healing moderate content was easily done also.

Just saying, group barding rocks....

-B