When does EE become easy?

[~Mantrax]

Hello all

I read many posts on the forum that say EE is too easy, not challenging etc.

It makes me wonder why I find them tough


I run my Cleric in EEs and find them to be most challenging - I have to be 100% on the ball and concentrating heavily on the bars watching out for those hefty damage spikes, positioning myself correctly to get the best use from aura/ bursts and often keeping renewal going on multiple recpients.

For me its super intense and I love it.


I cant see that I'll ever find it easy


EE still has that "special quality" about it that makes it a thrill to run.


Is it perhaps a Class thing? ie.. is it essier to run a Fighter or Barb in EE than a Cleric?
Or along similar lines - is it a class responsibility issue ie Cleric / FvS feels they carry responsibilty for sucess or wipe?
Is it just down to player skill or familiarity of constantly running EEs

By finding EE challenging am I in the minority or is it the norm?


I just get the feeling that if im not finding it easy then I must be doing it wrong.

[Nightmanis]

Hello all

I read many posts on the forum that say EE is too easy, not challenging etc.

It makes me wonder why I find them tough


I run my Cleric in EEs and find them to be most challenging - I have to be 100% on the ball and concentrating heavily on the bars watching out for those hefty damage spikes, positioning myself correctly to get the best use from aura/ bursts and often keeping renewal going on multiple recpients.

For me its super intense and I love it.


I cant see that I'll ever find it easy


EE still has that "special quality" about it that makes it a thrill to run.


Is it perhaps a Class thing? ie.. is it essier to run a Fighter or Barb in EE than a Cleric?
Or along similar lines - is it a class responsibility issue ie Cleric / FvS feels they carry responsibilty for sucess or wipe?
Is it just down to player skill or familiarity of constantly running EEs

By finding EE challenging am I in the minority or is it the norm?


I just get the feeling that if im not finding it easy then I must be doing it wrong.

I very rarely find EE to be particularly easy though some are much easier than others. Reclaiming the Rift vs something like House of Rusted Blades, a comparison like that is like a Shotgun compared to those little snap pop firewords.

As for when it becomes easy? The people that say it is are either A: Max geared out (or close) and running with others who are on the same level, B: Heavily geared out on something with a lot of ranged ability/self healing and are just killing enemies from a distance which makes them think it's easy since they aren't getting hit a lot, or C: Super Extremely skilled players (thinking Durnak, Shataan, etc etc.) that are going to just steamroll content regardless of what Turbine does.

I have to agree though, for how complex it is Epic Elite can be extremely fun. If you're one of the 3 groups above though, yes you will steamroll content and yes you will get bored of it. Can't really help ya then, you've "won DDO" and probably should either tr, or start removing things that make your build powerful (evasion, ranged capabilities, Shiradi for the people who can't seem to do anything outside of it) and then try questing.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing some of the Juggernauts take 2 fighter instead of monk, just to add a bit more challenge to their characters. Lack of evasion might make them even more fun and make content more challenging, who knows. Actually for that matter I wouldn't mind watching some of the Juggs roll up as a pure fighter and do what Durnak does. Would be interesting to watch.

[backandforth]

There is a difference from one EE quest to the other.They are not all the same.

There is a difference from one party or class to the other. A party of 6 warforged shiradi sorcerers may make EE look easier than heroic casual.

Having to keep alive more than one barbarian can be considered overpowering at times.

Epic elite quests are challenging and it is how they should be.

I think EE will become easier for you when you will have the items , the build or the experience needed to solo the quest yourself.

Then you can create a BYOH party with more people there to help you speed the process.

[Teh_Troll]

It becomes easy when nobody is stupid.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I don't find them "easy" ... although some are almost easy. ;)

But I do not find them particulary difficult either.

I do find them... thrilling. Tough... a challenge... have to keep on your toes...etc.

Seen wipes. Seen even more near wipes.

Use a ton of resources... often.

For my main, lvl 25 guy... they are the right difficulty. I really enjoy them.

For my level 21 guys... they are probably too much to handle. (depends on which ones though)
Not that I wouldn't try! lol


But to better answer your question, they become easy when you are powerful enough to do them with ease.
Knowlege is a major factor as well... probably even more important to completion.

[Thunderstryk]

Hit Points

EE's vary widely, a pug being healed by a hireling can handle a lot of the lower level EEs if they are somewhat careful. GH EE mobs hit stupid hard. If you've only got a normal to heavy investment into HP, trash mobs in EE GH will call you a gimp failnoob and put you down in 2 swings. If you've got an insane to ludicrous investment in HP, then you're just a bit squishy. On the other hand, if you've invested more into HP than anyone with half a brain would ever think viable, such as my 900 HP sorc who can occasionally hit 1200 after some tea, then you have a level of HP equivalent to 100 HP in the harbor. You will constantly be on the verge of death, but you should be able to keep up with the damage provided you pay constant attention, and even sometimes live through CC.

Damage Per Second

Staying alive is only a small part of the battle, you've got to make the bad guys dead to win. The mobs in EE GH have a ton health, DDO is only easy when you can kill the bad guys before they have a chance to hurt you. Go in that room with the 4 kobold shaman in butchers with a sword and board fighter wielding a +1 long sword on elite with no ship buffs and coming out alive won't be 'easy'. Go in there with a sorc insta killing them with niac's cold rays or a high DPS melee cleaving away and they don't seem any different than any other mob in there.

Decent damage in EE GH is 2k+ DPS. If you're swinging away doing 50-100 a pop and occasionally critting for ~1000... that's just not going to cut it. You want to be doing 500-1000 with your average damage and critting for 2-3k+, and critting at regular intervals as well. This isn't great DPS either, but I'd say it's pretty close to the dividing line between breaking even and getting ahead.

Blue Bar Efficiency

Whether you're a jugger who only uses mana for buffs and heals or a caster who lives and breaths spell points, the length of your blue bar is directly proportional to the length of your stay in the quest. You need to have some sort of exploitative system, such a shiradi force spell spamming, to stretch your blue bar or you just aren't going to make it very far. Unless you just want to buff the melee and let them carry you.

Cheap Shots

A big part of the 'easy' factor of EE GH to most people is that they aren't going toe to toe with the mobs. There are safe spots all over the place where you can dish it out without having to take it. Additionally, there are many places where you can bug out a seemingly impossible boss and make them as easy to deal with as a shroud portal.

Overwhelming Force

Let's say the average DDO player is a power factor of 100. New players would be around 20-50, and we've all seen some single digits here and there. Experienced vets on strong, geared builds might be up to about 200, and a few can situationally go much higher.

You're average party is mostly 100's with a few lows and highs sprinkled in, but for the most part the power factor of your average group is 600. One person dies and you're down to 500, if someone tries to rez the down player you'll drop clear down to 400. Now consider a party of all strong players... 200+ * 6 is a power factor of over 1200! Now consider that at least one of them is situationally very strong in almost every situation, so the group is easily 1500 on average.

Of course group power factor is completely contrived, but its only purpose was to demonstrate that a party of 6 strong players is equivalent to a a raid party of average players. I think if raid groups could go in EE GH quests they'd find it "easy" as well.

[Teh_Troll]

Use a ton of resources... often.



Aren't you the same guy who in another thread stated he has no issue with taking people leveling terrible destinies in EE and posted some really arrogant gibberish about it?

EE should use ZERO resource and will required ZERO resources if all the players are good and actually belong in EE. If you're using "tons of resources . . . often" then you clearly do not belong in EE.

This is why SP pots are the most terrible thing in DDO, they let people who clearly lack the skill beat content they aren't ready for and give them a false sense of competence.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Aren't you the same guy who in another thread stated he has no issue with taking people leveling terrible destinies in EE and posted some really arrogant gibberish about it?

EE should use ZERO resource and will required ZERO resources if all the players are good and actually belong in EE. If you're using "tons of resources . . . often" then you clearly do not belong in EE.

This is why SP pots are the most terrible thing in DDO, they let people who clearly lack the skill beat content they aren't ready for and give them a false sense of competence.

That's an interesting point of view you have there...

... that the hardest difficulty setting in the game should be easy to complete and use zero resources... unless you are gimped and have no business doing the most difficult settings.



(oh, and I said nothing about using SP pots)

[Teh_Troll]

That's an interesting point of view you have there...

... that the hardest difficulty setting in the game should be easy to complete and use zero resources... unless you are gimped and have no business doing the most difficult settings.



(oh, and I said nothing about using SP pots)

Resources = what then? Mountain Dew and nachos?

My point of view is people who still have trouble with the game shouldn't condescend on those who do not. Should/shouldn't whatever . . . it is fact that good players with good toons beat EEs every day without requiring "resources" other than their own skill.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Resources = what then? Mountain Dew and nachos?

My point of view is people who still have trouble with the game shouldn't condescend on those who do not. Should/shouldn't whatever . . . it is fact that good players with good toons beat EEs every day without requiring "resources" other than their own skill.

My characters bring their own healing... and heal or rez anyone in the group who needs help.


and from what you have written your "skill" is taking only max ED, powerful players into quests with you.

[Teh_Troll]

My characters bring their own healing... and heal or rez anyone in the group who needs help.

As do mine. Rez at least, if you can't keep yourself alive you don't belong in EE. Exceptions happen of course, people get stunned, etc . . .



and from what you have written your "skill" is taking only max ED, powerful players into quests with you.

I absolutely do not discriminate at all when I put up an LFM because it's damned entertaining watching the weak bite off more than they can chew.

Here the thing . . . EE is a loot run. That's just what it is, the reason to run EE is to pull EE loot.

If your bar is set really low at say "completion" then 6 people off-destiny can beat anything. We done this intentionally.

When running for loot you're looking for a "fast completion" and the more off-destiny chimps you bring the longer it will take. If you want a quest to take all night go for it, in your own groups. Pike too often in others and don't be surprised if you wind up in other people's no-fly list.

[TrinityTurtle]

It's like all things, it gets easier with practice and better gear. And with solid groups of people who are communicative and you gel with. Some skills make the runs easier, like good crowd control, but I've been through beat down fests with none and the groups came down victorious.

[~Lorien_]

Here the thing . . . EE is a loot run. That's just what it is, the reason to run EE is to pull EE loot.

If your bar is set really low at say "completion" then 6 people off-destiny can beat anything. We done this intentionally.

When running for loot you're looking for a "fast completion" and the more off-destiny chimps you bring the longer it will take. If you want a quest to take all night go for it, in your own groups. Pike too often in others and don't be surprised if you wind up in other people's no-fly list.

And there it is. You think everyone runs it for the same reason, or should run it for the same reason. Pretty big xp for first time EE completion says Turbine is trying to encourage (or is encouraging without realizing it) people to actually complete this for xp. No surprise that some people feel there is no reason not to try, both because Turbine encourages it with the xp model and because for the rest of the game elite is the default setting these days.

[~dravael]

I made EE easy for myself by learning to solo EEs. When I started, they seemed quite difficult to me...now, after having done various soloing accomplishments (such as hitting 375 PDK favor from soloing on my sorc), it feels really easy.

There are ways in which it'll always be difficult: DC-casting is out of whack in EE due to enemy saves, and relying on it will make EE seem difficult. Likewise, healing a group of unprepared people will make it seem very difficult. By comparison, getting a self-sufficient, decently-geared-and-built character, and running with 5 other EE-capable people will make everything seem fairly easy.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

As do mine. Rez at least, if you can't keep yourself alive you don't belong in EE. Exceptions happen of course, people get stunned, etc . . .



I absolutely do not discriminate at all when I put up an LFM because it's damned entertaining watching the weak bite off more than they can chew.

Here the thing . . . EE is a loot run. That's just what it is, the reason to run EE is to pull EE loot.

If your bar is set really low at say "completion" then 6 people off-destiny can beat anything. We done this intentionally.

When running for loot you're looking for a "fast completion" and the more off-destiny chimps you bring the longer it will take. If you want a quest to take all night go for it, in your own groups. Pike too often in others and don't be surprised if you wind up in other people's no-fly list.

EEs are your loot runs....

Just what do you use that loot for?

Just what quests do you actually do for fun? For a challenge?

Why do you need loot when everythig is easy?

Why when everything is easy, are you worried about some gimp in your groups?


These are things I will never understand.


...and you will never understand people like like me....
sometimes I don't know why I bother posting....

But I keep hoping that someone will be motivated by what I write.

maybe at least the new guys can see that not all vets are the same....
that some of us actually enjoy being inside dungeons.
that some play for fun, and not xp/minute or grinding for loot.

that some of us help people.
enjoy a challenge...

don't quit because the quest got tough.....

don't tell the new guy his gimp toon isn't welcome....

etc.






Back on topic....
no this game is not that hard.
some quests are harder than others...
some specific fights are real tough....

but in just about every quest I have run to get my 4358 favor.... no special build, HP, gear... or EDs... (or even healers) were needed.

experience means more than all of that stuff.... mostly how much agro you pull at one time.

Second to agro control may be simply moving during combat.
The most dangerous monster attacks are those that prevent you from moving.
Because of that, saving throws are probably the most important stat on your character. (notice I did not say HP)

another real important part of being able to handle tough fights is self healing.
although it also helps to heal your friends, cause you are stronger with them alive and participating.

How to survive in difficult content is really the same at lvl 1 as it is at lvl 25.

[~Grumpycat]

It becomes easy after you run it enough to know what to expect, run it with a group of people who also know it(or know how to fit into what's happening) and when you have all the gear that keeps you from dying, boosts all your abilities/skill/ego, And when Turbine turns down the actual difficulty so noobs can get thru it.

Other than that, it's HOLY MACKEREL! IT'S A DEATH FEST! (refers to the old forum post saying EE was over the top hard)

[~Tronsector9]

It becomes easy when nobody is stupid.


To the OP. What E-peen is really trying to say is that with more practice, one learns the ins and outs(tactics) to do each particular quest or raid on EE.

Some are fast learners, some have great twitch skills, some take a little longer to learn, but practice, trying different ED setups, gear, and running with knowledgeable players will get you closer to having the EE quests seem easier and easier. Don't be afraid to keep trying. Even if you have to apologize occasionally for slowing the group down, keep at it.

Mastering EH is always helpful but in a lot of cases, it's odd but true that EE tactics could be totally different.

Good luck! (Stay away from e-peens when possible, luckily there are some really cool and helpful players in DDO that have enough self-esteem to not have to puff themselves up on the forums).

[~chrisdinus]

Lots of ways to make it easy. For groups, just some level of teamwork does the trick.

Like:
- Bring a bard - they can CC all the trash without issue (as long as your group can focus fire).

- 6 PMs can easily instant death their way through. If necessary, scroll enervate, cast energy drain, then FoD. each PM still gets 20 - 30 kills per shrine. I can't think of any quest that requires more then ~150 kills to a shrine. EE Tor is only about 60 to the first shrine, for example. So, even 3 PMs should make it without issue. And that is being fairly inefficient, using what is being hailed as the horridly underpowered DC casting.

- Kite on a nuker / archer. Giants are exceptionally easy to kite, because they like to stop and use slow attacks a lot. No need for safe spots, but that is an option too.

- Bring defense. Cast / Scroll Displacement, have ghostly, maybe some dodge, maybe some PRR, maybe some DR. You can knock a good 60% - 80% off of what the mobs deal.

The list goes on. Really, any 6 even moderate builds can steamroll it if they work together well. No need for a FotM build. Sure, those are typically a bit faster, but hardly necessary.

Personally, I guess I'd say I first really noticed thinking it was easy when I found myself pulling multiple EE groups (not mobs, but running past 3 - 4 guys in a group to drag them to the next one) to speed it up even when solo.

[TheNewForumSux]

start removing things that make your build powerful (evasion, ranged capabilities, Shiradi for the people who can't seem to do anything outside of it) and then try questing.


I laughed when I read this. I have a Shiradi Sorc and I do steamroll EE.

So I decided to roll up the dreaded gimpmaster battlecleric. I tr'd my barb into an 18/2 FvS/Ftr and being in LD destiny very easily healed EE reclaiming the rift. MOST of the quests on EE is easy once you know how. Pretty much all of the EE quests have an optimal way, but strangely this is not known to most.

[Bilger]

Resources = what then? Mountain Dew and nachos?

My point of view is people who still have trouble with the game shouldn't condescend on those who do not. Should/shouldn't whatever . . . it is fact that good players with good toons beat EEs every day without requiring "resources" other than their own skill.

Well not all are as good as you at a game and have the same right as you to post what they think right or wrong as may be.


As do mine. Rez at least, if you can't keep yourself alive you don't belong in EE. Exceptions happen of course, people get stunned, etc . . .



I absolutely do not discriminate at all when I put up an LFM because it's damned entertaining watching the weak bite off more than they can chew.

Here the thing . . . EE is a loot run. That's just what it is, the reason to run EE is to pull EE loot.

If your bar is set really low at say "completion" then 6 people off-destiny can beat anything. We done this intentionally.

When running for loot you're looking for a "fast completion" and the more off-destiny chimps you bring the longer it will take. If you want a quest to take all night go for it, in your own groups. Pike too often in others and don't be surprised if you wind up in other people's no-fly list.

I just quoted a couple of your posts in this one thread and you have a elitist attitude, where if not as good as me then go away. I am better at a video game than you so your OP is worthless and you suck so go away.

Maybe sit back and read what others say. A lot have troubles in EE and in your OP don't belong in there.

If they complete and have fun or even fail and have fun that is all that matters it is a game. (not a job)

You seem to think that everyone should do as you do not everyone is the same get over it.

EE can be easy with a good group of players. They can be difficult also when don't have the right group and teaching people how to run them. Knowledge is key in this game.

Remember this is the forums and as Turbine says only 5% of people read and most are like this guy elitist.

[Teh_Troll]

Remember this is the forums and as Turbine says only 5% of people read and most are like this guy elitist.

More than 5% should try to be like me, it's awesome.

Had a long multi-quote reply but the forum ate them when the login timed-out. but long story short:

- EE is for loot. Running it for XP is horribly inefficient especially if you're trying to train up EDs.

- Good players will always put their best effort into something, pikers will not and expect them to carry you.

- We have no need to intentionally gimp ourselves if we want challenge, all we need to do is open up our LFMs for the peasants.

[ForumAccess]

When does EE become easy? When the entire party has stacked Displace + Ghostly and are either self healing FotW types, or Shiradi spammers.


By finding EE challenging am I in the minority or is it the norm?
Statistics defines several different types of 'normal'. Among others, there ae the Mean, Median, and Mode. In this case, the mean of player hours logged on the game would likely go towards the people who spend night after night farming the same top end content. Logged in most days, already geared up, and after that many repititions likely able to blast through any content in the game without a great deal of thought or effort. It is all down to rote.

Looking at the Median, it is really hard to draw any conclusions. There are people who play DDO fairly regularly, and still have not hit level 20 on a character. There are people who chain TR and get up to 20 in less than a week. There is such a wide range of playstyles represented in the DDO community that it is very difficult to make any kind of generalizations about the community as a whole at all!

And then there is the Mode. Most people have at least one or more characters at the level 24-25 cap. Well-enough equiped, but probably not setting on enough GS Smoke items to keep themselves Displaced for an entire quest! Likely capped in the Destiny that is important to them, but do not necessarily have all of their Twists of Fate maxed out. This would be the type of player that Epic Elite content is really designed for.

[Bilger]

More than 5% should try to be like me, it's awesome.

Had a long multi-quote reply but the forum ate them when the login timed-out. but long story short:

- EE is for loot. Running it for XP is horribly inefficient especially if you're trying to train up EDs.

- Good players will always put their best effort into something, pikers will not and expect them to carry you.

- We have no need to intentionally gimp ourselves if we want challenge, all we need to do is open up our LFMs for the peasants.

What you don't seem to understand is not all people are like you or want to be.

I may have the builds, gear, and can do what you supposedly do just as easy. I don't push my game style on them. Everyone has there own definition of fun and challenge.

Gaming is for fun and what is your fun and your way of having fun is not everyones way. So saying your way is the end all way is such B S and a elitist attitude.

You keep beating the efficient drum. Efficiency is nice, but not at expense of anothers or my enjoyement of the game. As soon as you understand that others enjoy things in different ways then you will understand. Until then you will never understand what is being said.

P.S.

No one is saying your way isn't the most efficient, just saying it isn't for everyone.

[Enoach]

I would say you are actually in the Range of the Norm if you find EE to be challenging.

Now there are ways of making Epic Elite easier:

1. The Unlimited Spell Point Pool - General disregard to the reentry penalty as XP is not the point of running the quest on EE
2. Use of Safe Spots/Perching - Places where you can go but the Mobs cannot
3. Maxed Destiny that best supports you in the Quest
4. A party working together off of each others strengths and weaknesses

I like the challenge of Epic Elite and regularly run them, sometimes in Guild groups, sometimes in 50/50 groups and sometimes in a pure pug. I've done short-man and full-party, I've only completed one of the easier EEs solo so far.

I recommend first do them for the fun of doing them, it will get easier for you as you level up.

[bsquishwizzy]

"In the range of norm" type here (and, specifically, who is this "Norm" guy anyways?).

EE is no cakewalk for me. Then again I have a second-life PM at lvl 21. I'm more than happy to stay within the bounds of EH. And it is unlikely that I'll get a PUG whose members are even remotely EE-capable.

But because I limit myself in this way, I will never be in the Cool Kids crowd. Therefore I am a sad panda.




Woe is me...


(Sob)

[Teh_Troll]

Gaming is for fun and what is your fun and your way of having fun is not everyones way. So saying your way is the end all way is such B S and a elitist attitude.


It's elitist but it sure as heck isn't BS.

[~Ruda]

More than 5% should try to be like me, it's awesome.

Had a long multi-quote reply but the forum ate them when the login timed-out. but long story short:

- EE is for loot. Running it for XP is horribly inefficient especially if you're trying to train up EDs.

- Good players will always put their best effort into something, pikers will not and expect them to carry you.

- We have no need to intentionally gimp ourselves if we want challenge, all we need to do is open up our LFMs for the peasants.

I think most ppl play this game for fun and would quit as soon as they become like you.

[Teh_Troll]

"In the range of norm" type here (and, specifically, who is this "Norm" guy anyways?).

EE is no cakewalk for me. Then again I have a second-life PM at lvl 21. I'm more than happy to stay within the bounds of EH. And it is unlikely that I'll get a PUG whose members are even remotely EE-capable.

But because I limit myself in this way, I will never be in the Cool Kids crowd. Therefore I am a sad panda.

Woe is me...

(Sob)

Then don't limit yourself.

There is no reason why a second life PM can't be contributor in any EE group unless you chose this.

I highly advise leveling on EH. Once you get to 25 and have some decent EDs you will be bored to tears running EH and it's either TR again or move on to EE.

Ask specific questions and you can get specific answers, another thread would probably be a good idea.

[Teh_Troll]

Double post.

[Teh_Troll]

I think most ppl play this game for fun and would quit as soon as they become like you.

being terrible is fun?

I've been terrible, had bad toons (heck, some of them are still bad), didn't know anyone here, and shied away from end-game. I've been there, we all have.

The game is much more fun when you are better at it, have good builds and characters, and a bunch of friends to share the fun with.

I've always considered "good" to be the natural progression of thing in a game, you start out terrible, you get better, then you get good. It's just evolution unless you chose to remain terrible.

[~Kalener]

Decent damage in EE GH is 2k+ DPS. If you're swinging away doing 50-100 a pop and occasionally critting for ~1000... that's just not going to cut it. You want to be doing 500-1000 with your average damage and critting for 2-3k+, and critting at regular intervals as well. This isn't great DPS either, but I'd say it's pretty close to the dividing line between breaking even and getting ahead.


Um... how in heck do you get those numbers?

I EE a bit, and my DPS seems to be fine on my melee (a monk/fighter). He doesn't do anywhere near that though. Quick lookup... 5d6 +23 base, plus 7 (holy), 7 (entropic), 3.5 (law), 3.5 (fire) and possible 3d6+5 sneak. His crits are 19-20 x4, with 6 seeker. Now, he's not actually setup for DPS right now (last thing I did was tank Reaver), this is more his tanky mode. Plus, that isn't even max DPS wraps, but rather grave wrappings for stunning. But... when I do go into EEs like this, my DPS doesn't seem unreasonable, so lets do the math here. (And I often do for unknown parties... I like staying alive.)

18+23=41 base. With crits, that's closer to 55 (rounding down since I rounded up on the .5). With those other add ons, not to mention the double vorpal of vorpal strikes and manslayer, it is 86 per hit, or 101 per hit with sneak. Monks can hit around 200 times per minute, so DPS is 287-337.

WAY under your number, yet I don't feel that gimpy, nor does my killcount seem that gimpy. But you say I'm only at 15% or so of what I should be? That seems crazy to me.

Sure, I probably do double in full DPS mode (although only with sneaks since dancer would be a chunk of that), but that's still way low. Even assuming I have Sense Weakness twisted in and am hitting a stunned mob.... still.... no where near your number. Maybe half at best.

Short of having something like Blitz running (which a full party of melees will never be able to do), or similar temporary effects.... how on earth do you get 2k+ DPS? Especially without top gear, as you're drawing that line, not as great, but as "decent".

I know I need better gear (OMG have I run EE PoP for goggles....), but with a looming lvlcap raise, I've been lazy about it. Plus, my toon brings stuns and various other utility to a party that a pure DPS wouldn't, so people may put up with my lousy DPS.... but judging from Killcounts (a bad ruler, but the only easy one available)... it just isn't that lousy. I've succeeded many a EE, even Gianthold, near or at the top of the killcount when running around with these numbers.

I've even solo'ed EEs (granted, not hard ones, although I can unlock the center on POP solo as a GH for example, but I haven't really spent much time trying solo EEs) with this gimp.

Maybe we're all Gimps on Cannith.....
(Grrr.... **** forum logout.....)

[~Tronsector9]

It's elitist but it sure as heck isn't BS.

Until you show some videos(we can post videos directly now), I call BS. Show us how you solo the tough EE content. If you come back and say that you don't solo it but run with Shiradi casters and the like, then the answer is still: EE is still a challenge. People love to flex on the forums, so show us what you are made of.

[~chrisdinus]

Um... how in heck do you get those numbers?
<snip>

2k dps is more than decent, the poster you are quoting was exaggerating. On a properly played Barb or Rogue you can get around 1kdps. If you can sustain a blitz, hitting 2k is feasible, but not for the entire group. You can situationally break 2k during a furyshot or woading, but you can't keep those up.

You can do it nuking against groups, as well. Heck, just alternating say chain lightning and delayed blast fireball against 8 or so mobs will get you there (though you are using sp at a fair clip).

Still, none of those really seem to be the implied sustained 2kdps.

[bsquishwizzy]

Then don't limit yourself.

There is no reason why a second life PM can't be contributor in any EE group unless you chose this.

I highly advise leveling on EH. Once you get to 25 and have some decent EDs you will be bored to tears running EH and it's either TR again or move on to EE.

Ask specific questions and you can get specific answers, another thread would probably be a good idea.

I have a severe addiction to instakill spells. It is never boring to me to go all proctologist on anything that moves in a quest.







Seriously...I think I need professional help...

[~Ruda]

being terrible is fun?

I've been terrible, had bad toons (heck, some of them are still bad), didn't know anyone here, and shied away from end-game. I've been there, we all have.

The game is much more fun when you are better at it, have good builds and characters, and a bunch of friends to share the fun with.

I've always considered "good" to be the natural progression of thing in a game, you start out terrible, you get better, then you get good. It's just evolution unless you chose to remain terrible.

I'm not talking about being good or bad. I'm talking about xp/item per min obsession - refusing to play with players that are not that good because it might result in a wipe or slow completion thus ruining your xp/item per min statistics. That's a hell of a good way to minimise challange in the game. No challenge = no fun - scientists all over the world are in consensus about that.

[Sokól]

Decent damage in EE GH is 2k+ DPS. If you're swinging away doing 50-100 a pop and occasionally critting for ~1000... that's just not going to cut it. You want to be doing 500-1000 with your average damage and critting for 2-3k+, and critting at regular intervals as well. This isn't great DPS either, but I'd say it's pretty close to the dividing line between breaking even and getting ahead.



That is close to a hybrid (self healing, THF and with manyshot toon) dps and in a balanced group where for example a monk stun or a mass hold (yes there are some debuffing maniacs out there that pull it off) can make the dps go much higher. The lower dps example above is typical for the same toon that is starting a new destiny for example imo.

[Sokól]

I'm not talking about being good or bad. I'm talking about xp/item per min obsession - refusing to play with players that are not that good because it might result in a wipe or slow completion thus ruining your xp/item per min statistics. That's a hell of a good way to minimise challange in the game. No challenge = no fun - scientists all over the world are in consensus about that.

Well I am no xp/item per min kind of guy but I see his point when you get used to running with very good players and getting things done in a nice smooth way it is hard to get used to the EE pug runs again...

[~Gorgonzolas]

In regards to the OP.

EE become easier when

1. A few people in group have a good understanding of the quest. i.e. mob attack pattern, aggro management, safe spot, etc

2. Synergy of ED and the base build 1-20. This doesn't necessary mean shiradi sorc, or fury AA, or Tree stump. I have seen some really skill FvS exalted angel, dreadnaught melee, non shiradi Sorc, Gmof. Have twist unlock is always good too.

3. Somewhat self sufficient. i.e. If a divine in the group died, this doesn't spell d0o0om because people can raise other, self heal a bit. Any class can self heal with ED twists.

4. Strategy - think outside the box. i.e. A healer doesn't necessary mean healing. They can hold aggro and kite a bit while the melee chase and beat down the monster. Know when to run to regroup and when to fight on.

As for people saying EE being too easy or too hard, This is no more than people complaining to make a point. If people complain about the quest being hard, then do something to get better. If others can do the quest then the only thing holding anyone back is their mindset. No one is forcing anyone to play a certain style, but do not complain how hard the quest is or how easy the quest is. Ask for advice and what the people are doing to make EE look easier instead of just complaining. If people are saying the quest is too easy, then don't use those over power ED combination that was never clearly thought out in the design process.

The difference between EH and EE loot is so minute that people don't need EE gear to be considered well geared.

Funny enough, people complain about drunk tree bug, but you don't see the same people that uses shiradi sorc complain about themselves using OP perma dot to take down mobs.

[Teh_Troll]

Until you show some videos(we can post videos directly now), I call BS. Show us how you solo the tough EE content. If you come back and say that you don't solo it but run with Shiradi casters and the like, then the answer is still: EE is still a challenge. People love to flex on the forums, so show us what you are made of.

Who was talking about soloing? For what it's worth I've solo'd several EE on a melee and a caster, but it takes too long and stuff's simply more fun in a group.

but filming a video at this point would be the same as you posting a video tying your shoes. It's about that much of an achievement at this time.

So link me that youtube video of you tying your shoes without assistance and I might be bothered to reinstall fraps.

[Teh_Troll]

Well I am no xp/item per min kind of guy but I see his point when you get used to running with very good players and getting things done in a nice smooth way it is hard to get used to the EE pug runs again...

Here's what I don't get though . . . the pugs on my server complete EEs not problem. I see it all the time, in GH and high road stuff. Are the pugs really that bad on your servers?

[Ykt]

Damage Per Second
Decent damage in EE GH is 2k+ DPS. If you're swinging away doing 50-100 a pop and occasionally critting for ~1000... that's just not going to cut it. You want to be doing 500-1000 with your average damage and critting for 2-3k+, and critting at regular intervals as well. This isn't great DPS either, but I'd say it's pretty close to the dividing line between breaking even and getting ahead.

How do you do 500-1000 average damage?

My barbarian does 200-300 per hit and 1000-1500 when critting as a LD with his EAGA (not blitzing or anything).

[TheNewForumSux]

Sheesh guys whats all this shiradi/furyshotter hate? Most of you have probably not even played one so how can you comment?

If you roll a gimp dont complain. Reroll.

Also if you are for example and 18/2 FvS/Figher dont go into EE and Meelee you will be a waste of everyone time. Be a healer. Contribute meaningfully and effectively.

Really if you find EE too tough, your toon is too gimp or your gaming skills are. Simple. Play eHard and practice some more.

I agree with pretty much everything teh_troll said. You might not like the guy but he is correct. I too do NOT find playing crappy gimp toons fun.

EE is easy. **** easy. The only tough EE's are the raids, for obvious reasons. FFS even EE belly is not THAT tough. It seem to me people have fogotten about gaming basics like CC etc etc..

[ForumAccess]

Sheesh guys whats all this shiradi/furyshotter hate? Most of you have probably not even played one so how can you comment?

If you roll a gimp dont complain. Reroll.
You really have to love it when a statement like this is immediately followed with something as clueless as:

Also if you are for example and 18/2 FvS/Figher dont go into EE and Meelee you will be a waste of everyone time. Be a healer. Contribute meaningfully and effectively.
The majority of damage comes from EDs, not heroic classes. This type of statement shows an extreme lack of understanding.


FFS even EE belly is not THAT tough. It seem to me people have fogotten about gaming basics like CC etc etc..
EE Belly of the Best hasn't been one of the more difficult quests to run on EE for a few updates now.

But hey,

I agree with pretty much everything teh_troll said. You might not like the guy but he is correct. I too do NOT find playing crappy gimp toons fun.
At least someone is a big fan of trolling!

[Teh_Troll]

EE is easy. **** easy. The only tough EE's are the raids, for obvious reasons. FFS even EE belly is not THAT tough. It seem to me people have fogotten about gaming basics like CC etc etc..

EE is APPROPRIATE for good level 25ish toons with good gear and good players.

EE is EASIER than "Epic" used to be relative to the power we had at level 20. Yes, it's tougher than old epics but we got WAY more powerful with EDs.

And yes, it is because people have forgoten the basics because the rest of the game is so friggin easy tactics aren't needed. People also bring knives to gunfights and wonder why they leave with a soar rectum.

[Teh_Troll]

At least someone is a big fan of trolling!

Trollin ain't easy . . .

[TheNewForumSux]

The majority of damage comes from EDs, not heroic classes. This type of statement shows an extreme lack of understanding.


Oh im sorry, so what you are trying to tell me is that a 18/2 FvS/Fighter and a pure 20 Fighter, both with the same gear and both with the same twists output pretty much the the same DPS if both are blitsing for example??? I find this hard to beleive, because if so nobody would roll non-selfhealing type toons like pure fighter or barbs.

[TheNewForumSux]

EE Belly of the Best hasn't been one of the more difficult quests to run on EE for a few updates now.


PLease tell me which other quest is tougher on EE?? I cannot think of any, as they are not tough at all. I used EE Belly as an example as that is what the OP mentioned.

[jalont]

Resources = what then? Mountain Dew and nachos?

My point of view is people who still have trouble with the game shouldn't condescend on those who do not. Should/shouldn't whatever . . . it is fact that good players with good toons beat EEs every day without requiring "resources" other than their own skill.

You've got quite the big head there. Let me give you a hint, nothing in DDO requires anything that can be labeled "skill". EE quests, just like every other quest, takes memorization and countering each encounter. This isn't "skill". This is a normal process that all fully functioning humans have.

Further, nobody is soloing the more difficult EEs on a bluebar without using pots, save for maybe Juggs, but they aren't what I consider a bluebar.

[WruntJunior]

Oh im sorry, so what you are trying to tell me is that a 18/2 FvS/Fighter and a pure 20 Fighter, both with the same gear and both with the same twists output pretty much the the same DPS if both are blitsing for example??? I find this hard to beleive, because if so nobody would roll non-selfhealing type toons like pure fighter or barbs.

Informed EE players DON'T roll non-self-healing fighters or barbs unless they're doing it for fun.

Your argument is invalid.

In addition, the damage difference is nowhere near as big as you seem to think.

Learn to EE before you try to throw your (lack of) knowledge around.


You've got quite the big head there. Let me give you a hint, nothing in DDO requires anything that can be labeled "skill". EE quests, just like every other quest, takes memorization and countering each encounter. This isn't "skill". This is a normal process that all fully functioning humans have.

Further, nobody is soloing the more difficult EEs on a bluebar without using pots, save for maybe Juggs, but they aren't what I consider a bluebar.

I disagree for two reasons. One, a quite superb guildie of mine has soloed every EE that can be soloed, to my knowledge without using pots. Two, any EE CAN be soloed without pots, it just takes a LOT more effort.

That's not counting the fact that in a group, pots should be a non-issue.

Edit: YAY, I'm Wruntjunior again rather than dravael.

[Teh_Troll]

You've got quite the big head there.

I do, it matches my genitals.



Let me give you a hint, nothing in DDO requires anything that can be labeled "skill".

I have to agree with this, what passes for "skill" in DDO is pretty laughable compared to what needed in other games/activities. But . . .



EE quests, just like every other quest, takes memorization and countering each encounter. This isn't "skill". This is a normal process that all fully functioning humans have.

Yet some people just aren't capable of doing this.

It's more polite for people like me to be an elitist jerk and pretend that people have higher skills who are completing EE's easily than to tell the truth . . . they simply aren't that intelligent.



Further, nobody is soloing the more difficult EEs on a bluebar without using pots, save for maybe Juggs, but they aren't what I consider a bluebar.

Once again . . . who said anything about soloing? In a 6-man group no pots are ever needed.

[Teh_Troll]

In addition, the damage difference is nowhere near as big as you seem to think.


I don't know about that, have a toon TR'd into a mostly-pally that's similar to that Pyrene thingy that was a kensai prior . . . sure it's damned near indestructible but the damage numbers I'm seeing really leave me wanting.

Everyone should have a self-healing melee toon in their stable, they are just so nice to have if you don't feel like waiting for groups to form (when not BYOH, BYOH groups form much faster) or if you want to solo something. but I seen nothing wrong with bringing out a pure killing-machine when the situation permits it.

[Bergie_2010]

I
Learn to EE before you try to throw your (lack of) knowledge around.


My statement had nothing to do with EE, it is about a divine with a fighter splash being leagues behind a pure fighter in terms of raw meelee DPS.

You say they are not. So pls, as I have a lack of knowledge as you so eagerly pointed out, enlighten me and give me a % or something? How far are they behind a pure barb or pure fighter on an avg swing and on an avg crit?

[1Soulless1]

I have to agree though, for how complex it is Epic Elite can be extremely fun. If you're one of the 3 groups above though, yes you will steamroll content and yes you will get bored of it. Can't really help ya then, you've "won DDO" and probably should either tr, or start removing things that make your build powerful (evasion, ranged capabilities, Shiradi for the people who can't seem to do anything outside of it) and then try questing.


Can you show the court where the sharadi caster touched you please?

Why the hate for Sharadi? My FvS/Fighter can do rather well in EE's, same with my Monk. It's all about damage mitigation and knowing the run.

That is all.

[WruntJunior]

My statement had nothing to do with EE, it is about a divine with a fighter splash being leagues behind a pure fighter in terms of raw meelee DPS.

You say they are not. So pls, as I have a lack of knowledge as you so eagerly pointed out, enlighten me and give me a % or something? How far are they behind a pure barb or pure fighter on an avg swing and on an avg crit?

Equally-geared, equally-past-lived (in other words, all else being equal) melee FvS is somewhere around 80-85% of the DPS of a straight fighter. Straight barbs are similar to straight fighters, but it's a bit of a wash.

Taking the attitude of thinking the best thing an 18 FvS/2 Fighter can do in EE is heal shows you know very little about EE..thinking anyone should have to be a dedicated healer in a lower difficulty calls even more into question.

Edit: Forgot to mention, your post did specifically say EE.

[jalont]

One, a quite superb guildie of mine has soloed every EE that can be soloed, to my knowledge without using pots.

This may be enough to impress me, and something I'd like to see a video of. Not because I don't believe you, but because there's a strategy to be learned.

[bsquishwizzy]

I do, it matches my genitals.


Ummm..OK?






Please tell me you're not of the femal extraction...

[bsquishwizzy]

As an FYI, I think success in EE is somewhat relative. I've done a couple of EEs in the past with my first-life very sub-optimal fleshy AM wizzy (lvl 22 or 23 at the time) in PUGs with what I'd say were average players, and we were successful. All of us had run these same quests multiple times and knew the drill. So it is very possible to run many of the epic quests on elite and complete in a way that is just as brusing as at-level heroic eilte. Would I be able to solo them? No. But, it is feasible.

So, if there is some sort of breathleness over the difficulty of EE, you might want to tone it down somewhat.

[Bilger]

All I am hearing in this thread is if can't faceroll it. Go do EH!!

Seriously, get over it not everyone is as UBER as all you elitists out there. Not everyone games like it is a job. It is tough for A LOT of people and takes a bit for them to do it. As long as they are having fun then what's the issue. Just because to them it may be difficult doesn't mean they don't belong there. It just means they aren't as UBER as you UBER ones.

You and I may not have issues in EE, but some do and have plenty of friends who may not be optimal but, get it done. Seriously, those have been some of funnest EE runs I have had when not in the most optimal group makeup, players, or party.

As far as when to do EE that is up to you when you feel you can contribute decently then go for it.

[Azarddoze]

This may be enough to impress me, and something I'd like to see a video of. Not because I don't believe you, but because there's a strategy to be learned.

From your last post there is no such thing as "skills" in DDO... so what could you be learning exactly?

"This isn't "skill". This is a normal process that all fully functioning humans have."

This is not true for everyone in a gaming state of mind.

[Azarddoze]

All I am hearing in this thread is if can't faceroll it. Go do EH!!

Seriously, get over it not everyone is as UBER as all you elitists out there. Not everyone games like it is a job. It is tough for A LOT of people and takes a bit for them to do it. As long as they are having fun then what's the issue. Just because to them it may be difficult doesn't mean they don't belong there. It just means they aren't as UBER as you UBER ones.

You and I may not have issues in EE, but some do and have plenty of friends who may not be optimal but, get it done. Seriously, those have been some of funnest EE runs I have had when not in the most optimal group makeup, players, or party.

As far as when to do EE that is up to you when you feel you can contribute decently then go for it.

If it is as simple as how you bring it, why are there complaints about EE being too hard? Why won't those people that don't take it as a "job" (a.k.a. not uber?) like you put it be satisfied with running EH? The misconception is that everyone should have access to the toughess challenges in the game while they're not willing to change their playing for it.

Again I will compare this to a single player game : If you would never even think about chosing the highest difficulty setting, then why is it different in a MMO? Your last sentence is all it should be about. If it interrests you and you feel you can contribute dencently, then go for it. If not, please just keep running EH, there is fun to be had there as well, it's the same game.

[ZeebaNeighba]

When does EE become easy?About the same time when it was identical to EH but each monster got 99999999 HP, 200 damage a swing and DC's in the 50s.

[jalont]

From your last post there is no such thing as "skills" in DDO... so what could you be learning exactly?

"This isn't "skill". This is a normal process that all fully functioning humans have."

This is not true for everyone in a gaming state of mind.

Erm, in what way is learning a new strategy a skill? Seems to be exactly what I said in the original post. Perhaps before posting a rebuttal to someone, you should work on your reading comprehension skills or it may lead to more embarrassing situations like this.

[Azarddoze]

Erm, in what way is learning a new strategy a skill? Seems to be exactly what I said in the original post. Perhaps before posting a rebuttal to someone, you should work on your reading comprehension skills or it may lead to more embarrassing situations like this.

Allright, if there are no skills involved then please tell me why everyone isn't just as good as each other? It must all be about learning strategies I guess. I guess it's also learning strategies that makes a new player better than a vet from day 1 he joins the game.

Is it possible that you have no idea what skills can make you better because you:
a) have no clue or
b) don't posses them.

And embarassing situations... really? Re-adjust your forum seriousness level please.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If it is as simple as how you bring it, why are there complaints about EE being too hard? Why won't those people that don't take it as a "job" (a.k.a. not uber?) like you put it be satisfied with running EH? The misconception is that everyone should have access to the toughess challenges in the game while they're not willing to change their playing for it.

Again I will compare this to a single player game : If you would never even think about chosing the highest difficulty setting, then why is it different in a MMO? Your last sentence is all it should be about. If it interrests you and you feel you can contribute dencently, then go for it. If not, please just keep running EH, there is fun to be had there as well, it's the same game.

How nice of you to decide for everyone what difficulty they should play the game at. Thank you.

[Azarddoze]

How nice of you to decide for everyone what difficulty they should play the game at. Thank you.

How nice of know to reject common sense, because it is all I brought up.

What I did is compare a MMO to a Single Player which are both video games with differents difficulty levels to suit different kind of players.

[GoMeansGreen]

How nice of know to reject common sense, because it is all I brought up.


lol, right
they are butthurt because they think they are winners but they are finding they are not

[moops]

Much about EE is good strategy for the group make up. I find that with the right destinies, gear doesn't really matter for most EE quests--because of how current end game is.

As a healer, I am lucky to play with people who are fairly self suffcient--I also don't rely on aura to heal, and use Mass Cures, not Mass heal, as on EE content I can't get hit often, and the damage when it does happen is too fast for Mass Heal.

While it's true that I find a lot of it easy...there are the few where i KNOW that if I mess up kiting or get the aggro and I am not prepared( as I am a caster cleric) I know I can die almost instantly--such as running EE TOR with 5 Shiradi casters and myself and gathering up mobs until red alert and blasting away:)

But these groups don't think of death as a bad thing, we are all going to mess up and die in one of the runs eventually, but it won't wipe us.

If you learn to single pull, and never stand still, 99 % of the EE is quite easy, even in a sub par group with sub par gear, thanx to destinies.

[Ryiah]

I read many posts on the forum that say EE is too easy, not challenging etc.

I think most of those people are not pugging. I've yet to join an Epic Elite pug, but I know with Epic Hard raids that it is typically easier to run them in very small groups than to have an entire party of pugs.

[backandforth]

If you learn to single pull, and never stand still, 99 % of the EE is quite easy, even in a sub par group with sub par gear, thanx to destinies.

What you describe makes the quest doable not easy.

A warforged shiradi sorcerer/wizard with quicken reconstructs,displacement and nerve venom for cc ,can enter a quest naked.

Every other class/destiny in a sub par group with subpar gear is going to have a really hard time.

[Elaril]

lol, right
they are butthurt because they think they are winners but they are finding they are not

While I agree with the post you quoted, I find it humorous that you are claiming people are not winners because they don't play the massive multiplayer online video game version of dungeons and dragons on the epic elite difficulty setting.

[Nightmanis]

Can you show the court where the sharadi caster touched you please?

Why the hate for Sharadi? My FvS/Fighter can do rather well in EE's, same with my Monk. It's all about damage mitigation and knowing the run.

That is all.

I was thinking more along the lines of the people who have AM wizards who are wf pure con builds with about 2400sp and 900hp+ in Shiradi who have dumped everything because of the mentality that it's so incredibly powerful. Seen too many of them, when it's totally unnecessary.

[remember1]

many times I saw written in the forums that EE is easy

IMHO its better for the game to keep it tough for the characters looking for challenges

[fredericko]

90% or more of these "EE is hard/easy" controversies wouldn't happen if people just got a little perspective on where each player is posting from. Players with 6 years of experience, with heavily-TR'ed toons, doing mostly guild runs or closed channel runs, have a different point of view on what's hard than nearly everyone else. Players who enjoy playing blue bar classes usually have easier times at end game than crazier folks who enjoy pure fighters or barbs like I do.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

While I agree with the post you quoted, I find it humorous that you are claiming people are not winners because they don't play the massive multiplayer online video game version of dungeons and dragons on the epic elite difficulty setting.

Ah,.. but the ironic part is he was indirectly refering to one of my posts....so that would mean that he was refering to me...

and I do play EE..... not only that, I find them easier enough to not need to stack the deck in my favor to complete.

But apparently since I do not strive for an effortless completion, I am somehow not a winner......

[Viconiax]

I was thinking more along the lines of the people who have AM wizards who are wf pure con builds with about 2400sp and 900hp+ in Shiradi who have dumped everything because of the mentality that it's so incredibly powerful. Seen too many of them, when it's totally unnecessary.

The funny part is...my drow *gasp* PM normally always have more kills than those wf con-dumped AM wizzies while using mostly necro/enchant spell...shiradi is good for boss DPS though. :P and often have way more hp than they have too.

[Teh_Troll]

But apparently since I do not strive for an effortless completion, I am somehow not a winner......

/signed.

[Teh_Troll]

many times I saw written in the forums that EE is easy

IMHO its better for the game to keep it tough for the characters looking for challenges

When looking for challenge we bring pugs. :)

[WruntJunior]

The funny part is...my drow *gasp* PM normally always have more kills than those wf con-dumped AM wizzies while using mostly necro/enchant spell...shiradi is good for boss DPS though. :P and often have way more hp than they have too.

That's the thing, most shiradi casters are not that great...and shiradi is hard to lead the kill count with unless you have enemies bunched up for chain missile/meteor swarm spammage.

I don't think shiradi is anywhere near as much of an easy-button as people seem to think it is - it makes things too easy for a good player, but for most players, it won't make them suddenly able to perform in EE. The ability to do well enough in EE to make EE content fairly easy requires being a good player as well (and obviously using a good enough build).

Personally, though, my shiradi is no longer a shiradi because it's just too bland for me - TRing into a DI sorcerer, as that was more fun (though air human rather than water warforged, this time).

[Raithe]

When looking for challenge we bring pugs. :)

Wow, that is really pathetic. You go an entire thread without understanding what Talon is telling you, then mimic what he is saying in a half-serious tone? I'm thinking you picked your forum handle to match your intentions. It surprises me that you haven't been booted yet.

As for EE being "difficult" or not, it's entirely a matter of CR. If your character's true CR approaches that of CR 45+ mobs, and you can deal an appropriate amount of damage (probably mostly due to EDs), then EE isn't using anything much different from normal or casual. The mob AI is the same, their speed is the same, the positioning and spawning is constant, etc. If your character does not have sufficient CR to scratch the mobs, then its not really difficulty that is preventing you from finding things easy, it's pure ineffectiveness.

But as Mr. Troll says, the best form of difficulty in this game is found in bringing a bunch of newbie puggers into a quest and helping them succeed. I just wouldn't recommend using epic elite for that type of difficulty... the game is more fun when your character is at full effectiveness.

[Teh_Troll]

Wow, that is really pathetic. You go an entire thread without understanding what Talon is telling you, then mimic what he is saying in a half-serious tone? I'm thinking you picked your forum handle to match your intentions. It surprises me that you haven't been booted yet.

All he posts is condescending gibberish. There's nothing more to understand with anything he posts.



But as Mr. Troll says, the best form of difficulty in this game is found in bringing a bunch of newbie puggers into a quest and helping them succeed. I just wouldn't recommend using epic elite for that type of difficulty... the game is more fun when your character is at full effectiveness.

You got that "Mr. Troll" part correct, have a cookie.

[Gremmlynn]

Aren't you the same guy who in another thread stated he has no issue with taking people leveling terrible destinies in EE and posted some really arrogant gibberish about it?

EE should use ZERO resource and will required ZERO resources if all the players are good and actually belong in EE. If you're using "tons of resources . . . often" then you clearly do not belong in EE.

This is why SP pots are the most terrible thing in DDO, they let people who clearly lack the skill beat content they aren't ready for and give them a false sense of competence.Well that false sense of competence is likely what they are paying for, so I don't see the problem. It's not like DDO is a spectator sport where the customers would be losing out because of this.

It would only seem to be a problem with those who have the misconception that Turbine values their skill over the next guys dollars.

[Teh_Troll]

Well that false sense of competence is likely what they are paying for, so I don't see the problem. It's not like DDO is a spectator sport where the customers would be losing out because of this.

You lose out as a player cheating/cheesing your way through content. Not really learning how to play, not growing, etc . . . no challenge = no fun and P2Winning your way victory just doesn't feel as good as legitly beating something. Unless your like my 5 year old who cheats at every game he ever plays and mopes if he doesn't win.

It's a topic for another conversation that's been gone over to death already . . . but unlimited SP in a bottle, purchasable with your credit card, is the most BROKEN thing in DDO and has been since the store came out. Every raid is beaten in the first 4 hours on the highest difficulty by some pot-swilling chimps.

There will never be and true challenge in DDO because of this, not unless it's self-imposed.

Then again raiding is completely dead in DDO so it's a moot point.



It would only seem to be a problem with those who have the misconception that Turbine values their skill over the next guys dollars.

Who cares what Turbine values? I don't.

[AlmGhandi]

EE becomes easy when I can do it.

[Raithe]

You lose out as a player cheating/cheesing your way through content. Not really learning how to play, not growing, etc . . . no challenge = no fun...


Glad you are finally speaking some truths. Yes, mana pots are a horrible blight on the game and Turbine is undoubtedly LOSING money due to their existence. They are unable to recognize that fact, however, so I wouldn't be holding my breath for it to change. Their short-sightedness abounds, and if it wasn't mana pots it would be, well... horribly overpowered sustainable ranged combatants that can solo epic elite raids WITHOUT the use of mana pots.

The point I wanted to make, however, is that cheese comes in other forms than liquid. For instance, waiting entirely too long to make sure you have the ultimate in heavily-grinded characters played by veterans of the game. Nothing disappoints me more (even mana pot usage is barely equivalent) than finding out that most everyone in my PUG is a highly skilled player and overly powerful for the quest. It turns the quest into a bland zerging cakewalk, and I probably would have been more satisfied soloing. I usually just grit my teeth and wade through (because such events are rarely long), but it does make me think my entire setup time (LFM, repair, restock) was wasted.

Guild Wars 2 recognizes cheese correctly. Characters are automatically de-leveled (even their gear is scaled) to fit the content that they are running. In PvP, gear only makes an impact on appearance, not effectiveness. You seem to believe that mana pots are the spawn of a pit fiend, but fail to recognize that grinding for overpowered loot is equivalently stupid. In other words, you ahve no idea what you are talking about.

[Gremmlynn]

If you learn to single pull, and never stand still, 99 % of the EE is quite easy, even in a sub par group with sub par gear, thanx to destinies.Therein lies the problem. One needs to play the game in a rather repetitive manner for this to be the case.

EE is a great setting for those to whom meta-gaming is fun and simply completing on whatever terms is satisfying. For those to whom how they play contains a lot of the appeal to playing, this isn't the case.

You see this in this thread. Many advocating playing characters built to beat the content in a manner that takes advantage of weaknesses in the game as opposed to those who seem to think the game should be played on whatever terms they find satisfying.

I think what many are looking for is what they consider a fun way of playing EE's that simply doesn't exist and others are telling them it's there if they just change their definition of fun.

[Enoach]

While SP potions from the Store have tipped the balance in the past towards the Blue Bar Nuke Builds, it is by far less abused than the Re-Entry method for SP refills.

Many Quests that can be run on Epic Elite are either really close to a shrine or a bar to refresh the pool. Even close enough to make the 5 minute window if running solo.

The problem is that the Re-entry XP penalty is not a deterrent to running Epic Elite as so many that have posted here on the forum don't use it for XP they use EE for Loot/Favor/Because it is there and have the "You want to level farm Impossible Demands/Rusted Blades" mantra.

Not all who are claiming EE is easy use Cheese, but those that do show their colors in the course of their complaining.

[Gremmlynn]

You lose out as a player cheating/cheesing your way through content. Not really learning how to play, not growing, etc . . . no challenge = no fun and P2Winning your way victory just doesn't feel as good as legitly beating something. Unless your like my 5 year old who cheats at every game he ever plays and mopes if he doesn't win.

It's a topic for another conversation that's been gone over to death already . . . but unlimited SP in a bottle, purchasable with your credit card, is the most BROKEN thing in DDO and has been since the store came out. Every raid is beaten in the first 4 hours on the highest difficulty by some pot-swilling chimps.

There will never be and true challenge in DDO because of this, not unless it's self-imposed.

Then again raiding is completely dead in DDO so it's a moot point.You are taking to a player who finds potion vendors as easy buttons, so a swing and a miss there. I just don't expect others to necessarily have to have the same values and motivations as myself. So, I really have no problem with self-imposed challenges as that's an expectation.

Who cares what Turbine values? I don't.Who cares or not really doesn't change the reality of what effect it has on the game. The big question we should be asking is who, outside of ourselves, really cares or should care about our own values?

[Vint]

In another thread people are complaining about why people do not know what they are doing in von5. In my estimation, if someone wants to learn it, there are places out there to see what exactly the voice and ting does. It is the lack of people looking for themselves and it is easier to blame the vets.

They can say it is no fun for them to learn the game for themselves, but at the same time for me to stop every three seconds to show someone how to wipe their arse.

The same thing applies to this conversation. I keep hearing the same thing over and over.

It is not fun to build a self-healing toon . It is not fun to learn the game. It is not fun to have to do more than hack and slash hoping that I kill them before they kill me.

Instead of admitting that they are not ready for EE, they will bash the vets because we do not stop to sniff flowers and the fact that some of use strategy (word lawyer that, but you know what it means.

[Gremmlynn]

You lose out as a player cheating/cheesing your way through content. Not really learning how to play, not growing, etc . . . no challenge = no fun and P2Winning your way victory just doesn't feel as good as legitly beating something. Unless your like my 5 year old who cheats at every game he ever plays and mopes if he doesn't win.

It's a topic for another conversation that's been gone over to death already . . . but unlimited SP in a bottle, purchasable with your credit card, is the most BROKEN thing in DDO and has been since the store came out. Every raid is beaten in the first 4 hours on the highest difficulty by some pot-swilling chimps.

There will never be and true challenge in DDO because of this, not unless it's self-imposed.

Then again raiding is completely dead in DDO so it's a moot point.You seem to place an inordinate amount of importance on what others seem to find entertaining. Personally, I found it hard to take DDO seriously the first day I played when I saw potions could be bought from vendors. It works best just to play however you find the game fun and not worry about how others play I find.



Who cares what Turbine values? I don't.Whether you care or not is really not going to have any effect on how those values effect how the game is developed.

[Ryiah]

You lose out as a player cheating/cheesing your way through content. Not really learning how to play, not growing, etc . . . no challenge = no fun and P2Winning your way victory just doesn't feel as good as legitly beating something.

Yes and no. Learning the game for the first time is ideally when you should avoid them, but once you've mastered most of the content it reaches the point where it no longer matters if you use them. There is only so much you can learn from most content.



Guild Wars 2 recognizes cheese correctly. Characters are automatically de-leveled (even their gear is scaled) to fit the content that they are running. In PvP, gear only makes an impact on appearance, not effectiveness.

So basically Guild Wars 2 attempts to fix what it perceives as a problem by making all your character progress worth absolutely nothing? That isn't fixing anything but rather hiding the problem.

[Teh_Troll]

Guild Wars 2 recognizes cheese correctly. Characters are automatically de-leveled (even their gear is scaled) to fit the content that they are running. In PvP, gear only makes an impact on appearance, not effectiveness. You seem to believe that mana pots are the spawn of a pit fiend, but fail to recognize that grinding for overpowered loot is equivalently stupid.

You seem to think OP loot makes a difference now that we have EDs?

Really? 90% of your power comes from your EDs, ubber-loot compared to basic random-gen stuff is MAYBE 5% of a power difference.

And this change ABSOLUTELY KILLED DDO'S END-GAME. The power shifting mostly to EDs and being less loot-focused was TERRIBLE. The "best" (most efficient) way to level up EDs is to mindlessly run fast-XP quests. It is faster by an order of magnitude.

Out-dating most of the old raid loot and making quest loot tradable made it's acquisition much easier. Once you have your stuff . . . what else is there to do? new content doesn't come out often enough.

If not for TR DDO would be dead right now.



In other words, you ahve no idea what you are talking about.

I'm am the troll king, bow before me.

[Raithe]

So basically Guild Wars 2 attempts to fix what it perceives as a problem by making all your character progress worth absolutely nothing? That isn't fixing anything but rather hiding the problem.

Your first sentence is exactly true. Character progression is essentially meaningless in Guild Wars 2. Yet it is FAR more popular than DDO and currently only falls behind WoW (and perhaps some MMO called "Silk Road Online.")

That is because the designers of that game are probably TRUE game aficionados and recognize that metagming is [B}not[/B} a game. It doesn't fit the criteria. It has no balance, it is extremely easy to conquer, and provides no interesting results. Outcomes are usually predetermined and attempting to invoke a random element into it simply annoys the players and makes them either adjust completely to compesnate for randomness, or quit playing.

Gremmlynn put it very nicely. Epic elite is fine for those that find metagaming satisfying. It's the meta-gaming "difficulty" selection put in by metagamers, for metagamers. Make no mistake, the developers of this game have been and continue to be metagamers. They [B}want[/B] to make gear the end-all be-all of determining the outcomes of quests. It's just that actual gamers keep telling them they are wrong.

Cause they are.

[Elaril]

Ah,.. but the ironic part is he was indirectly refering to one of my posts....so that would mean that he was refering to me...

and I do play EE..... not only that, I find them easier enough to not need to stack the deck in my favor to complete.

But apparently since I do not strive for an effortless completion, I am somehow not a winner......

Your posts are not really any better, honestly. You write emo walls of text in which you display, what I perceive to be, your persecution complex about how you manage to overcome overwhelming odds that no one else has to face to complete your quests. I'm sorry if this sounds harsher than I intend, but I don't want people to get the idea that we're together. I came to this party stag after all.

[Raoull]

The point I wanted to make, however, is that cheese comes in other forms than liquid. For instance, waiting entirely too long to make sure you have the ultimate in heavily-grinded characters played by veterans of the game. Nothing disappoints me more (even mana pot usage is barely equivalent) than finding out that most everyone in my PUG is a highly skilled player and overly powerful for the quest. It turns the quest into a bland zerging cakewalk, and I probably would have been more satisfied soloing. I usually just grit my teeth and wade through (because such events are rarely long), but it does make me think my entire setup time (LFM, repair, restock) was wasted.


Totally agree.... guys who wait an hour for a "perfect" party, I don't understand. If you want a challenge, bring whoever joins and it will be a greater challenge.

I find it to be the flipside of the guys sitting around for an hour with "needs a healer" in their LFM. Just go in with a hire for chrissake... a wipe is way more fun than sitting around waiting....

There are times when it is not totally unreasonable (EE FoT, I imagine), but it is used too often, and used too stringently most of the time it is used.
Pretty much exacdtly like the "need a healer" guys who don't think Druids (and to a lesser extent Bards/Arties) can heal....


But maybe that's just me.... while a smooth run is good, I find a near-wipe to be the most fun of all, and perfect parties rarely pull that off. I'm a freak.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Your posts are not really any better, honestly. You write emo walls of text in which you display, what I perceive to be, your persecution complex about how you manage to overcome overwhelming odds that no one else has to face to complete your quests. I'm sorry if this sounds harsher than I intend, but I don't want people to get the idea that we're together. I came to this party stag after all.

Ouch. :(

points taken, but that is not how I meant it.

[Elaril]

Ouch. :(

points taken, but that is not how I meant it.

Sorry, that definitely sounded more tactful and humorous in my head than it did in writing. Let's pretend like I said what I did in an eloquent, non insulting manner, and added a cleverly humorous joke at the end.

[RightToRemainStupid]

EE becomes easy when people relinquish their obstinately held views on what the game 'should' be or what roles 'should' be required and instead focus on the plethora of easy buttons that exist for dominating content. It's a mentality, you either get it or you don't; those who don't choose not to. Those who do can do so on first life characters in budget gear with very little grind. At any given time, the information is freely available with a little research.

[fredericko]

Therein lies the problem. One needs to play the game in a rather repetitive manner for this to be the case.

EE is a great setting for those to whom meta-gaming is fun and simply completing on whatever terms is satisfying. For those to whom how they play contains a lot of the appeal to playing, this isn't the case.

You see this in this thread. Many advocating playing characters built to beat the content in a manner that takes advantage of weaknesses in the game as opposed to those who seem to think the game should be played on whatever terms they find satisfying.

I think what many are looking for is what they consider a fun way of playing EE's that simply doesn't exist and others are telling them it's there if they just change their definition of fun.

+1. Couldn't agree more.

I tried to get my brother into DDO back when epics first came out. I was running epic OOB while he was sitting next to me, watching the action. When we got to the part where the stone scorpions pop up right before the red name fight, we did the shoulder-to-shoulder-barrier trick. You know the drill: caster shot a firewall before the human wall, scorpions burnt for 15-20 seconds running stupidly in place while trying to get past the players' barrier, then melees began swinging at them. Scorps wouldn't retaliate because melees didn't have the aggro, of course. My brother frowned, got up and said "and this is the great game you were talking about?" He never played DDO, not for a minute.

Watching some of the most popular builds out there right now I can but think that if the best way to beat epics was riding a stinking pig backwards while playing Justin Bieber tunes on the trumpet you would have to log in using ear and nose plugs.

[Gremmlynn]

EE becomes easy when people relinquish their obstinately held views on what the game 'should' be or what roles 'should' be required and instead focus on the plethora of easy buttons that exist for dominating content. It's a mentality, you either get it or you don't; those who don't choose not to. Those who do can do so on first life characters in budget gear with very little grind. At any given time, the information is freely available with a little research.Pretty much. I sometimes think of it as 2 groups running an obstacle course. One group thinks the other is stupid for not simply running around the obstacles and the other wonders why the first even bothers since they do.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Pretty much. I sometimes think of it as 2 groups running an obstacle course. One group thinks the other is stupid for not simply running around the obstacles and the other wonders why the first even bothers since they do.

Wow... I want to add this to my sig! lol

[ForumAccess]

Pretty much. I sometimes think of it as 2 groups running an obstacle course. One group thinks the other is stupid for not simply running around the obstacles and the other wonders why the first even bothers since they do.
Really? Because to me it seems much more like one group of people playing an MMO. With a few individuals who like to claim that their efforts to do things inefficiently means that they are the only ones who are "playing right".

[jalont]

Glad you are finally speaking some truths. Yes, mana pots are a horrible blight on the game and Turbine is undoubtedly LOSING money due to their existence. They are unable to recognize that fact, however, so I wouldn't be holding my breath for it to change. Their short-sightedness abounds, and if it wasn't mana pots it would be, well... horribly overpowered sustainable ranged combatants that can solo epic elite raids WITHOUT the use of mana pots.


Oh yey, it's the part of the thread where people declare things as though they're true.

I think you may not be very in-tune with the DDO playerbase. The vast majority of people in this game do not want a challenge. That is why they don't pug. That is why EE rarely gets ran. Combine the lack of wanting a challenge with immaturity and a lack of coping skills, and you get the people that throw a hissy whenever one little thing goes wrong in a group. Here's a hint, if these people can't cope with the loss of ten percent, they'll leave the game if they don't have pots for emergencies.

[Teh_Troll]

Oh yey, it's the part of the thread where people declare things as though they're true.

I think you may not be very in-tune with the DDO playerbase. The vast majority of people in this game do not want a challenge. That is why they don't pug. That is why EE rarely gets ran. Combine the lack of wanting a challenge with immaturity and a lack of coping skills, and you get the people that throw a hissy whenever one little thing goes wrong in a group. Here's a hint, if these people can't cope with the loss of ten percent, they'll leave the game if they don't have pots for emergencies.

EE gets run all the time, at least when people aren't TRing.

When I hear this all I hear is people being really soar for not being allowed to play in the reindeer games.

EDIT: Wait . . . WHAT? You think people running EE care about a 10% XP loss?

[Vint]

Combine the lack of wanting a challenge with immaturity and a lack of coping skills, and you get the people that throw a hissy whenever one little thing goes wrong in a group. Here's a hint, if these people can't cope with the loss of ten percent, they'll leave the game if they don't have pots for emergencies.

I care about losing 10 percent, but the bigger problem with me is running with incompetence.

I get tired of hearing this challenge stuff that you put out there. Bring along stupidity? Really? I deal with stupidity 40 hours a week and do not need it in a party.

When you say “coping” are you talking about the sub-par players that join the LFM’s that are over their head? Should they cope with begin worthless to these elite groups and stick to LFM’s they can handle?

I do not hide on the forums, and I will tell anyone who I am. If a pugger joins my group and expects to have their hand held, they were warned. You can call it a hissy fit; I call it holding people accountable. The reason we have so many terrible people playing this game is because people do not hold them accountable and they get use to everyone doing everything for them. Not me.

[Teh_Troll]

I care about losing 10 percent, but the bigger problem with me is running with incompetence.

I get tired of hearing this challenge stuff that you put out there. Bring along stupidity? Really? I deal with stupidity 40 hours a week and do not need it in a party.

When you say “coping” are you talking about the sub-par players that join the LFM’s that are over their head? Should they cope with begin worthless to these elite groups and stick to LFM’s they can handle?

I do not hide on the forums, and I will tell anyone who I am. If a pugger joins my group and expects to have their hand held, they were warned. You can call it a hissy fit; I call it holding people accountable. The reason we have so many terrible people playing this game is because people do not hold them accountable and they get use to everyone doing everything for them. Not me.


My next LFM for EE is gonna say "BYO Stupidity." Thanks for the idea.

[danotmano1998]

Wow!

Well with all these interesting viewpoints floating around in this forum, I would like to share mine..
DDO is a game. I play it to have fun.

I would rather join a PUG that dies valiantly in the attempt while having a chaotic blast than tag along on yet another boring zergfest in the xp/minute perfect run mindset.

But that is the way 'I' enjoy DDO. Your results may vary.
And now back to your regularly scheduled forum debate..

[DynaTheCat]

EE content is ridiculously easy....

Then again, I am a thelanis elitist. :D

[jalont]

EE gets run all the time, at least when people aren't TRing.

When I hear this all I hear is people being really soar for not being allowed to play in the reindeer games.

EDIT: Wait . . . WHAT? You think people running EE care about a 10% XP loss?

What percentage of the playerbase do you think is running EEs? Why isn't the percentage higher?

[jalont]

I care about losing 10 percent, but the bigger problem with me is running with incompetence.

I get tired of hearing this challenge stuff that you put out there. Bring along stupidity? Really? I deal with stupidity 40 hours a week and do not need it in a party.

When you say “coping” are you talking about the sub-par players that join the LFM’s that are over their head? Should they cope with begin worthless to these elite groups and stick to LFM’s they can handle?

I do not hide on the forums, and I will tell anyone who I am. If a pugger joins my group and expects to have their hand held, they were warned. You can call it a hissy fit; I call it holding people accountable. The reason we have so many terrible people playing this game is because people do not hold them accountable and they get use to everyone doing everything for them. Not me.

You can try to rationalize your behavior any way you wish. Everyone does. That's how they convince themselves they don't need to change. The simple fact is, rational, fully-functioning adults do not get angry and throw a hissy fit because someone made a mistake. The anger stems from their inability to cope with the fact that something happened that they did not like. This isn't the way adults act, and if you find your self acting this way, you should strive to improve yourself. The first step is stop attempting to rationalize it and attempt to emulate people better than you.

[Azarddoze]

What percentage of the playerbase do you think is running EEs? Why isn't the percentage higher?

...What's your point genius?

[jalont]

...What's your point genius?

My original point was that people aren't running EEs because they don't like the challenge. The rebuttal was that plenty of people were running EEs. My question to that person was, since they seem to think many people are running EEs, what their opinion on the percentages was. I'm not sure what stumped you. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

[Azarddoze]

My original point was that people aren't running EEs because they don't like the challenge. The rebuttal was that plenty of people were running EEs. My question to that person was, since they seem to think many people are running EEs, what their opinion on the percentages was. I'm not sure what stumped you. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

I mean what's your point of even coming up with a percentage? If it's 5% you're gonna start saying that those 5% should be ignored because they aren't part of the majority? Why would the percentage even matter?

Seem as much straight foward as irrelevant to me.

[jalont]

I mean what's your point of even coming up with a percentage? If it's 5% you're gonna start saying that those 5% should be ignored because they aren't part of the majority? Why would the percentage even matter?

Seem as much straight foward as irrelevant to me.


I wouldn't say that they should be ignored. And I think the percentage is less than one percent actually. The point would be to try and get the poster to realize that his attempt at some slight against me, "When I hear this all I hear is people being really soar for not being allowed to play in the reindeer games.", had him twisting reality. Which is that people don't run EE because they don't want the challenge. Of course "some" people run EE. I run EE. The point is that the number is small compared to the playerbase and the endgame playerbase. The reason for this is that the playerbase as a whole doesn't want anything other than an easy completion.

I'm sure there is a small number of players that want some sort of challenge, but this isn't the norm. For that reason, SP pots do not cost the game money and players. While it may anger a small percentage of players that somehow see SP pots as making the game easier, it appeals to the game's masses.

[Azarddoze]

I wouldn't say that they should be ignored. And I think the percentage is less than one percent actually. The point would be to try and get the poster to realize that his attempt at some slight against me, "When I hear this all I hear is people being really soar for not being allowed to play in the reindeer games.", had him twisting reality. Which is that people don't run EE because they don't want the challenge. Of course "some" people run EE. I run EE. The point is that the number is small compared to the playerbase and the endgame playerbase. The reason for this is that the playerbase as a whole doesn't want anything other than an easy completion.

I'm sure there is a small number of players that want some sort of challenge, but this isn't the norm. For that reason, SP pots do not cost the game money and players. While it may anger a small percentage of players that somehow see SP pots as making the game easier, it appeals to the game's masses.


You've got quite the big head there. Let me give you a hint, nothing in DDO requires anything that can be labeled "skill". EE quests, just like every other quest, takes memorization and countering each encounter. This isn't "skill". This is a normal process that all fully functioning humans have.

Further, nobody is soloing the more difficult EEs on a bluebar without using pots, save for maybe Juggs, but they aren't what I consider a bluebar.

If someone as misinformed as you is running EEs, then I am pretty sure there is more than 1% running those. You don't need a Juggs, neither pots to solo GH EEs, i've done it. You seem to think that you represent the majority but on the other hand you say that you run EEs.

I just don't get it, you're trying to confront an opinion with your own opinion of what you think everyone's reasons are to not be running EEs. There is just not ONE reason. And I think it is fair to say that some players are indeed bashing "elitists" or however you want to call those because they can't do as good. So it is to say that some don't want a challenge... but honestly at one point being good is just what you do, it is not challenging. It's like working, you don't need to concentrate to pull off what has to be done. So sometimes I feel that one excuse is even worst because it hides a lack of willing to try and at the same time, it bashes the one who does and "work" toward rocking.

[bsquishwizzy]

I care about losing 10 percent, but the bigger problem with me is running with incompetence.

I get tired of hearing this challenge stuff that you put out there. Bring along stupidity? Really? I deal with stupidity 40 hours a week and do not need it in a party.

When you say “coping” are you talking about the sub-par players that join the LFM’s that are over their head? Should they cope with begin worthless to these elite groups and stick to LFM’s they can handle?

I do not hide on the forums, and I will tell anyone who I am. If a pugger joins my group and expects to have their hand held, they were warned. You can call it a hissy fit; I call it holding people accountable. The reason we have so many terrible people playing this game is because people do not hold them accountable and they get use to everyone doing everything for them. Not me.


Ummm…uh…OK?

First, it’s a game.

Second, if you place that sort of importance on an online game such that you have zero tolerance for “incompetence,” there nothing else that can be said other than you need to get a life. Seriously. Go take a walk in the park, listen to the crickets at night around the campfire, get more bran in your diet to loosen things up a bit, switch to decaf – whatever it takes.

I’ve got zero tolerance for incompetence too. However, I usually reserve that for multi-million dollar projects, my kids’ education, and thousand-dollar plumbing bills (not to mention the occasional intercontinental plane ride to a customer site).

Wait! Maybe that’s what you should do: put up an ad for players to run with you! Have them submit resumes, references, maybe a video of their work. You can put them through an interview process, and only select the crème de la crème (all two of them) to run with you on your plans for world domination via DDO EE content.

Yeah, that’s it.

[bsquishwizzy]

My next LFM for EE is gonna say "BYO Stupidity." Thanks for the idea.

+1.

I think I'll try that tonight.

[backandforth]

What percentage of the playerbase do you think is running EEs? Why isn't the percentage higher?

More than you think they do. I would say a 60% .
Your question should have been ,what percentage of the playerbase is pugging EEs?
Then again I saw an lfm earlier of level 23 saying Elite Underdark need a guide.

The percentage isn't higher because its not fun for the casual player to die all the time and kill nothing.
The percentage isn't higher because it is not fun to carry the above people to completion.

Since the majority of EE lfms are byoh, there are also the players that dont want to change their build to self heal or spend money for sf pots ,scrolls etc.

Ransack is one more reason people dont run EE. Noone bothers to run EE fens for example but almost everybody has ransacked EE tor.
Remove ransack and the lfm pannel will be full with EEs

About mnemonics Ill say that most EE quests are done with people recalling for spell points anyway. Pots are used mostly during raids.

[Teh_Troll]

What percentage of the playerbase do you think is running EEs? Why isn't the percentage higher?

The good percentage, the rest don't matter.

[Teh_Troll]

My original point was that people aren't running EEs because they don't like the challenge. The rebuttal was that plenty of people were running EEs. My question to that person was, since they seem to think many people are running EEs, what their opinion on the percentages was. I'm not sure what stumped you. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

With that caveat I will say that I think most are bored to death with DDO's lame excuse for an end-game.

Run EEs . . . to not get loot . . . run TWO relevant raids . . . to not get loot . . . or TR which is by far more fun.

[Teh_Troll]

Ummm…uh…OK?

First, it’s a game.

Second, if you place that sort of importance on an online game such that you have zero tolerance for “incompetence,” there nothing else that can be said other than you need to get a life. Seriously. Go take a walk in the park, listen to the crickets at night around the campfire, get more bran in your diet to loosen things up a bit, switch to decaf – whatever it takes.

I’ve got zero tolerance for incompetence too. However, I usually reserve that for multi-million dollar projects, my kids’ education, and thousand-dollar plumbing bills (not to mention the occasional intercontinental plane ride to a customer site).

Maybe if you didn't eat so much bran your plumbing bills wouldn't be so high?



Wait! Maybe that’s what you should do: put up an ad for players to run with you! Have them submit resumes, references, maybe a video of their work. You can put them through an interview process, and only select the crème de la crème (all two of them) to run with you on your plans for world domination via DDO EE content.

Yeah, that’s it.

That's a great idea, we've been looking for a new guild recruitment ritual, I think you might be on to something.

[Teh_Troll]

About mnemonics Ill say that most EE quests are done with people recalling for spell points anyway. Pots are used mostly during raids.

Nonsense.

[backandforth]

Nonsense.

If you drink mnemonics without using the shrine outside, its you only:p

Not saying that you have to use pots.

You will have to try a lot to persuade me though that the average EE raid finishes without the need for mnemonics.

[Vint]

You can try to rationalize your behavior any way you wish. Everyone does. That's how they convince themselves they don't need to change. The simple fact is, rational, fully-functioning adults do not get angry and throw a hissy fit because someone made a mistake.

It is a not a hissy fit. When there is an LFM and you cannot bring what is asked, you are asking for trouble. You can bring this 12 step program into it if you want “face it, trace it, and erase it”, but it is a simple as “If you can you join, if you can’t, don’t join”.
I am not going to go down this road again about how to treat people. I do not hide on the forums. You or anyone can blacklist me. I am not going to change my ways because someone got butthurt because they are not smart enough to read an LFM; and if they are smart enough to read, they are stupid for thinking that I would let them slide in my party.

[bsquishwizzy]

Maybe if you didn't eat so much bran your plumbing bills wouldn't be so high?


There is no greater pleasure in life to unleash something that a plumber needs a jackhammer in order to unclog.

[Vint]

Ummm…uh…OK?

First, it’s a game.

Second, if you place that sort of importance on an online game such that you have zero tolerance for “incompetence,” there nothing else that can be said other than you need to get a life. Seriously. Go take a walk in the park, listen to the crickets at night around the campfire, get more bran in your diet to loosen things up a bit, switch to decaf – whatever it takes.

If you were terrible at bowling would you go try to join a league that bowls in the 280 range? I highly doubt it. It is also a game so why would you not go join?
Is it because you would not want not to be publicly humiliated? When you are worthless on a computer game (game same as bowling), you can easily DC or drop group without begin held accountable, and you do not worry if you pi$$ off or let down your team. You can simply hide in anonymity.
My advice would be for all these elite wanna be’s is to quit riding on everyone else’s coat tails.

[bsquishwizzy]

If you were terrible at bowling would you go try to join a league that bowls in the 280 range? I highly doubt it. It is also a game so why would you not go join?

First, if you are bowling in that kind of range, your league should go pro.

Secondly, pro bowling fringes on being a joke.

Third, I don't know of ANY league with that kind of range that doesn't ask what your score or handicap is before they take someone in.

Fourth, I play a lot of golf. Your kind of attitude is very prevalent amongst "serious" golfers. I love to golf. Am I great at the game? Maybe? Yes? I don't really klnow.. I sure as heck enjoy playing it, and spending time on the course, and being with my buddies. The time I absolutely cannot stand playing golf is when I'm ahead of a bunch of "serious" golfers all decked out in their "serious" golf gear; they are frickin' insufferable. I usually let them play through whenever I can because they are the types of jerks wo will rocket a ball my way on an approach shot because they don't like the fact that I maybe duffed my last shot, and ignored the 10 minues I spent patiently waiting for the people on the green to finish so I could make my approach.

Then I end up having to wait for those same yahoos at the next hole whiie they make quiet snide comments about how "slow" I golf.

The upside is that I make sure they hear me laughing when they shank one into the woods. Oh and I love the fact that they often leave me free balls that I can re-use the next time I play...in the water...the woods...the rough...well, you get the point.

Or I get paired with one of those guys who wants to play for money, or end up being hugely competitive. You have to sit there and listen to smack-talk, and all thair BS bravado. Yippie. You're good at getting a small white ball into a very small hole located some 500 yards away. Your still a d-bag that no one likes outside of the course. So you just go with your bad self out on the course, and be all you can be (yawn)

So yeah. I know exactly what you're saying. My advice is still pretty much the same.



Is it because you would not want not to be publicly humiliated? When you are worthless on a computer game (game same as bowling), you can easily DC or drop group without begin held accountable, and you do not worry if you pi$$ off or let down your team. You can simply hide in anonymity.

My advice would be for all these elite wanna be’s is to quit riding on everyone else’s coat tails.

I don't know about you, but I have a job that is fairly serious. I mean, no one is shooting at me, but I work in some pretty high-stress situations. I don't like living "serious" when I'm away from work - call me crazy.

I really don't know if you're good at this game or not - and I really don't care. Suffice to say, I probably wouldn't group with you even if I was "all that," which I doubt I am. Because guys like you make this game immensely un-fun.

The upside is that your probably playing it down in your basement in your underwear, and not with a bunch of expensive golf gear that signals to the rest of humanity that you are probably an immense jerk in and out of the game.

BTW, that investment in a cheap ball retriever has paid for itself five times over....

[Azarddoze]

If you drink mnemonics without using the shrine outside, its you only:p

Not saying that you have to use pots.

You will have to try a lot to persuade me though that the average EE raid finishes without the need for mnemonics.

What he most likely meant is that players that run or solo EEs do not drink pot neither use shrine outside. They don't need to. Maybe for some raids, sometimes but that is what the potions are for, and they drop enought to cover this. What this proves is you are arguing in a topic while having no clue on the actual subject.

[Azarddoze]

Third, I don't know of ANY league with that kind of range that doesn't ask what your score or handicap is before they take someone in.

Exactly what the problem is since there is no control mechanism in the game, players should be able to control themselves. And... we know this won't happen so i'd say the point was valid.

[Vint]

The upside is that your probably playing it down in your basement in your underwear, and not with a bunch of expensive golf gear that signals to the rest of humanity that you are probably an immense jerk in and out of the game.

BTW, that investment in a cheap ball retriever has paid for itself five times over....

I wish I was able to sit in my basement and play in my boxers. That would be nice. You are right though, I am a jerk 24/7.

I also respect the fact that you recognize that we would not have fun together in a party, so you would stay away from my jerk LFM’s. I honestly have no problem how you like to play or what you do in game, but when you lay your hang ups on me, then I do get mad.

I am not great at golf either, but I am smart enough to know that if a group is looking for someone to go with and they are really good, I would tell them up front no thanks, I am a gimp. I have no problem admitting that I am not good at something. I just wish other people would return the favor before they start jumping into groups hoping that someone will carry them to “glory”.

[RightToRemainStupid]

This is really quite simple, I don't know why it needs to be complicated by confusing analogies. Those who are getting emotional about how other people run EE's, are basically jealous. Yep it's good old fashioned envy; they see people doing what they cannot and it makes them feel angry and worthless. They have chosen to ignore all the tools that are freely available to help them to emulate the people they admire, but due to some sort of self-imposed psychological constraint, they intentionally handicap themselves.

Let me repeat, there is nothing hard about running EE's successfully. When they don't go smoothly, it is because there are weak links in the chain. I find that the people who consistently appear in endgame/EE groups, are always the people with the 'can do' attitude. Of course there are always guild/social group related 'entourages', who are often gimps, but are kept around by the hardcore types because they say the right things, pass loot at the right times and engage in other ego stroking, circle jerking duties relevant to the social aspect of the scene.

The PUG's I join often do leave mid-EE to shrine outside, I do this a lot myself. This is only ever necessary in sub-optimal groups, which in PUG'ing is most of them. There are two main reasons for shrining mid-EE.

1. We can dump our bars and blast through the quest faster.

2. We are carrying gimps who aren't contributing their share.

In groups where everyone came knowing what they could contribute, I have never had to leave and use a shrine. In these groups, everyone is competing to see who can get to the mobs and kill them first. These aren't the groups where the half the group is watching the other half solo the quest for them. These are the groups where the whole group are zerging together, using the full strength of their capabilities.

Unfortunately there will always be those who will find some excuse as to why they can't or don't do that, then try to belittle those who can and do. There is no deep philosophy behind this, DDO is a profit driven game, an obstacle course that is designed to tax players through artificial barriers. There is no morality involved in how we choose to navigate it, some people have fun running straight through, mindlessly stumbling into all the pitfalls. Others have fun looking for cheap and cheesy ways around it, knowing it was only set up to frustrate and milk them, taking pleasure in hacking their way around it, thereby exploiting the exploiters.

[Azarddoze]

This is really quite simple, I don't know why it needs to be complicated by confusing analogies. Those who are getting emotional about how other people run EE's, are basically jealous. Yep it's good old fashioned envy; they see people doing what they cannot and it makes them feel angry and worthless. They have chosen to ignore all the tools that are freely available to help them to emulate the people they admire, but due to some sort of self-imposed psychological constraint, they intentionally handicap themselves.

Just quoting this because this need to be read while written by someone else than me with bad english. But not everyone has an interrest in psychology...

And this has the power to harm the "hardcore" players while the "hardcore" players only suffer from this false misconception. Nothing can be taken away from casual because the easy content is always the base of a game, and for good reasons. Obviously not everyone has the time or will to play with only optimization in mind, I understand this perfectly but... it would be time for the casual to also understand what the "hardcore" thrives and pays for.

But nice post overall, now I wish I could write english a bit more decently but working on it.

[backandforth]

What he most likely meant is that players that run or solo EEs do not drink pot neither use shrine outside. They don't need to. Maybe for some raids, sometimes but that is what the potions are for, and they drop enought to cover this. What this proves is you are arguing in a topic while having no clue on the actual subject.

He is reading the acheivements section of the forums too much:p

[Raoull]

2. We are carrying gimps who aren't contributing their share.


Eh.......
I don't think this is a good attitude. I'm not singling you out, I've seen it from many others. Fortunately far more often on the forums than in game, but I have seen it in game.

I've pugged quite a few EEs. I've also played many with my guild of basically casual players. I've been the worst guy in pugs of all great players, that plowed through stuff. And I've been the best man in many groups that have completed. On occasion, I've totally dominated the kill count in some of those groups, with 2-3 times the next guy.

Now, I could easily think that I dragged those guys through, that those gimps aren't contributing their share.

But I've also been in groups where there was one awesome guy who tripled my kill count. But quests where I was 99.9% certain that we would have completed without him. Of course he sped that completion up greatly, but in no way was he the determining factor between success and failure. And while we certainly don't mind a quick completion, we're often not in any hurry either.

I'm not saying there isn't the occasional player who really is so gimpy that he is contributes less than his scaling. But I am pretty sure that you are overestimating this quantity greatly.

Some guys may look like they're not contributing their share, but you're accomplishing so much there isn't as much share left to go around. Most of them will pick up the slack if need be.

And most who can't, are learning. For most players, they will never learn the skills necessary to be good at EE without playing EEs. The content is a huge leap from EH. It takes a while for someone to get a hang of it. Especially someone who wasn't around playing raids and epics in the old cap20 days. The current game just doesn't have that difficult raid/epic dynamic, but at that time it was teaching the players how with Shroud, if not earlier with VoN/DQ/Reavers. All the teaching stuff is gone, since with capped players the old raids are too easy.

And sure, for some handful of guys, what they learn is they can't swim in the deep end. I expect most of them don't stay there long. Don't lump everyone into that category. I find best for my own game enjoyment to lump no one into that category.

[Azarddoze]

Eh.......

Way to write a long post on a quote taken out of context hehe.

"There are two main reasons for shrining mid-EE."

[GoMeansGreen]

While I agree with the post you quoted, I find it humorous that you are claiming people are not winners because they don't play the massive multiplayer online video game version of dungeons and dragons on the epic elite difficulty setting.

hahaha
it is a joke
sorry you didn't get it

[TheLegendOfAra]

What percentage of the playerbase do you think is running EEs? Why isn't the percentage higher?

Most of the pugs on Argo for end game stuff right now is for EE GH/HighRoad/Eveningstar quests.. Very few are for EH, or EN unless people are farming for certain gear/ED's. I'd say about 7/10 pugs I run on Argo are EE. And I PUG a lot. Really, I pug way more than I should considering I'm in 3 of the major end game channels on Argo...

And as far as "people don't run EE because they don't want challenge" this isn't very true.. At least not on my server, from my experience most channel, or guild runs on Argo are by default on EE. (with the exceptions of raids) People on Argo enjoy EE.

Now, playerbase being what it is, I'm sure you're right. Most people playing the game aren't playing EE's... And that's because most people playing this game aren't even capped. However, of the playerbase that's capped, and running endgame stuff? I'd say a large portion of them run EE's, and regularly. I'm not going to say any %'s because I don't know them myself. But this is the impression that I get from Pugging on Argo at endgame.

Also when pugging, I take the first 5 people to hit the LFM, healer or not, and I don't wait around to fill. Most runs are listed as "BYOH IP" and when a healer joins if they do any healing I make sure to pay them back for whatever they use. I complete 98% of EE pugs this way. I haven't had an actual wipe in ages with this method, except for when I'm just not paying attention to anything.

[Therigar]

Aren't you the same guy who in another thread stated he has no issue with taking people leveling terrible destinies in EE and posted some really arrogant gibberish about it?

EE should use ZERO resource and will required ZERO resources if all the players are good and actually belong in EE. If you're using "tons of resources . . . often" then you clearly do not belong in EE.

This is why SP pots are the most terrible thing in DDO, they let people who clearly lack the skill beat content they aren't ready for and give them a false sense of competence.

I found this post extremely offensive and arrogant. I heartily disapprove of it.

Epic Elite is just what it has been claimed to be -- a widely unconnected mix of difficulty and challenge heavily influenced by race, class, gear and player ability. For someone leveling a "terrible" destiny it is very easy to select one or two of the easiest quests, dominate them with the right character class and player knowledge/ability, and let everyone in the group profit from the XP generated. This can be repeated ad nauseam until a player has accumulated enough XP to move on to the next destiny tree.

There is nothing in this that is contrary to the observation that in a general way epic elites are challenging and involve a lot of effort and resources. In point of fact most epic elite quests fit this pattern rather than that of being easily dominated by the right mix of race/class/gear/player.

Although I am generally opposed to the use of negative reputation and applaud the revision to the forums to eliminate that from our repertoire, posts like that quoted are a good argument for reinstating the practice. It is offensive, argumentative and demonstrates a lack of understanding about both the original topic and its own referenced poster's points.

[generalfoley]

Hello all

I read many posts on the forum that say EE is too easy, not challenging etc.

It makes me wonder why I find them tough


I run my Cleric in EEs and find them to be most challenging - I have to be 100% on the ball and concentrating heavily on the bars watching out for those hefty damage spikes, positioning myself correctly to get the best use from aura/ bursts and often keeping renewal going on multiple recpients.

For me its super intense and I love it.


I cant see that I'll ever find it easy


EE still has that "special quality" about it that makes it a thrill to run.


Is it perhaps a Class thing? ie.. is it essier to run a Fighter or Barb in EE than a Cleric?
Or along similar lines - is it a class responsibility issue ie Cleric / FvS feels they carry responsibilty for sucess or wipe?
Is it just down to player skill or familiarity of constantly running EEs

By finding EE challenging am I in the minority or is it the norm?


I just get the feeling that if im not finding it easy then I must be doing it wrong.

pp