Why do TR's nowadays have such low hp

[mcalm3000]

I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.

[~droid_327]

I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.

Well I imagine its two reasons....

1) At low levels, you dont really need it. Most builds can get through L9 content at-level with just what-have-you gear and a cleric hireling.

2) I imagine a lot of them are just zerging the life....zerg to 8, stone to 18, join LFMs to 20, TR. There's no incentive to go out and earn good gear for such a strategy....heck, sometimes there's no incentive to go to the bank and pull out gear you already have, especially if you have guildies who'll just let you tag along and rush you.

3) There is one advantage to dying easy - you can just ride in someone's pocket through a quest and, AFAIK, get XP for it; see above about guildy rushers. You could AFK it. Also, if you're dual-boxing, that has the obvious advantage of you not having to deal with two boxes at once, you can just pocket one character's stone, and use the other character to gain XP for both.

[~Kaytis]

I shoot for 25 to 30 hp per level until the low teen levels. So by 10 I expect to have 300 or so hp on any class. This is accomplished through guild slots, one toughness feat / enhancements, and false life items mostly. It gets a bit dicier after that on non-melee classes, but my FVS is averaging 28 at level 15 thanks to the many extra toughness enhancements FVS get and green steel.

[forummuleonly]

I honestly don't get why people think that other players need to play the way the other players play.

I seriously don't get, nor do I understand why the HP's of any other player causes such angst in people they come to the forums to post about it. I have tried for years to understand why this bothers people so much, but I just cannot 'get it'.

It just really seems to me that with all the threads about how the LFM's are down, fewer people on the servers, etc. etc. that there would be less focus on what people are doing wrong in regards to something as
meaningless as HP's, most especially at low levels.

The game was played, and beaten, and we excelled at it long before HP became the new MOAR!!! flavor.

Frankly, as far as I am concerned, I could care less about that red bar, as long as the player has the skills they don't need the HP. I have seen 200 HP bard/sorc/wiz/clr that almost never need a heal, and I have seen 1k HP ftr/barb/fvs that are utterly nothing but an SP sponge for the heals.

I just let other people worry about their own characters, and should they ask, I would offer advice based on what I see. If they are owning content with 200 hp, the they are apparently doing something right. If they aren't? Then I don't mind giving them a ride o the shrine and offering some tip if they would like.

I just don't get why the subject bothers people so much it has to constantly come back as if the people with low HP are doing something wrong, when they are not.

Plenty of time to catch up on HP in epic levels.

****. I rolled a 1 on my will save for this thread too.

[Charononus]

I honestly don't get why people think that other players need to play the way the other players play.

I seriously don't get, nor do I understand why the HP's of any other player causes such angst in people they come to the forums to post about it. I have tried for years to understand why this bothers people so much, but I just cannot 'get it'.

It just really seems to me that with all the threads about how the LFM's are down, fewer people on the servers, etc. etc. that there would be less focus on what people are doing wrong in regards to something as
meaningless as HP's, most especially at low levels.

The game was played, and beaten, and we excelled at it long before HP became the new MOAR!!! flavor.

Frankly, as far as I am concerned, I could care less about that red bar, as long as the player has the skills they don't need the HP. I have seen 200 HP bard/sorc/wiz/clr that almost never need a heal, and I have seen 1k HP ftr/barb/fvs that are utterly nothing but an SP sponge for the heals.

I just let other people worry about their own characters, and should they ask, I would offer advice based on what I see. If they are owning content with 200 hp, the they are apparently doing something right. If they aren't? Then I don't mind giving them a ride o the shrine and offering some tip if they would like.

I just don't get why the subject bothers people so much it has to constantly come back as if the people with low HP are doing something wrong, when they are not.

Plenty of time to catch up on HP in epic levels.

****. I rolled a 1 on my will save for this thread too.

It matters when they join a byoh zerg party and can't keep up or contribute without dying. Can they do normal/hard instead of elite, or not zerg, and make sure to have a divine? Yes, however when they join parties that do not have that playstyle is where the problem and the "rage" comes from. Personally I don't get it either because hp is easy to get even without gs.

[Enoach]

Hit Points being 1/3 of your character at level 9 is very subjective. If you are a D4 character and have 3x the HP of a D10 then yes I could see your concern. However if you are a D12 character having 3x a D4 then I'm going to point out that that appears to be normal as your Base HP are already 3x more and Constitution and Gear and Buffs haven't even been factored in yet.

Base HP for a Level 9
108 HP - D12 ?Barbarian: 12 hit points per Level
90 HP - D10 ?Fighter?Paladin: 10 hit points per Level
72 HP - D8 ?Monk?Ranger?Cleric?Favored Soul: 8 hit points per Level
54 HP - D6 ?Artificer?Bard?Rogue: 6 hit points per Level
36 HP - D4 ?Sorcerer?Wizard: 4 hit points

Some other additional factors you might be seeing:
1. A group of TRs that have not spent time getting Twink Gear - 1 to 20 and TR again with no time spent on gear
2. An experimental build not focusing on HP
3. Gear is Level 11+ - Many TRs take a huge jump starting at level 11 with Greensteel and some raid loot from previous lives.

Even with HP there is no guarantee a person won't die - mistake or poorly timed missed saves. Obviously more HP helps buffer for errors but again is not the end all be all...

[~Lorien_]

I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.

LMAO

That's an EPIC first post.

Who "fully gears" at L9? Hell, until I hit GS I usually just run with whatever (the exceptions being main stat for that character and fort... I lhate crits)

Its not like you have to be twinked out at L9 lol

[ForumAccess]

TR wings do not in any way suggest anything about the player, or character. TRing has become so easy that it seems like most everyone has done it at least once, often without actually getting any gear first, or even having much of a clue as to what they are doing.

[~adfsdasdaf]

I honestly don't get why people think that other players need to play the way the other players play.

The environment requires certain play styles. If you aren't compensating for the environment, you are doing it wrong. Having ****** HP means traps or casters can one-shot you, or a bit of lag can do you in, which costs the group XP.

[floydpepper]

So you're saying 300hp at level 9 is (or should be) achievable for all characters?

Let's look at a few examples (assuming 1 toughness feat, maximum available toughness enhancements, a GFL item, a con +6 item (ML 9 if restricted to race or with masterful craftsmanship) and a +2 con tome. GS and guild augment slots are left out, as players who don't have an item with an (old) large GA slot yet will likely never get one now, and GS accessories are ML 11*.

328 hp: WF or dwarf barbarian, con 20 (26 with enhancements and tome), racial toughness 3, barbarian toughness 3

243 hp: Horc fighter, con 18 (20 with tome), racial toughness 2, fighter toughness 3

217 hp: WF or dwarf wizard or sorc, con 20 (24 with enhancements and tome), racial toughness 3

207 hp: human or helf bard, con 18 (with +1 from human versatility 1 to unlock rt3, tome), racial toughness 3

188 hp: halfling rogue, con 14 (16 with tome), racial toughness 2 (just ran that on a 2nd life char, and believe me, going quasi-str based for more dmg with high enough dex for imp. SA and decent int for skills doesn't leave a lot of points for con :))

[all hp totals can be increased by 18 with ship buffs and rage]

Even with ship buffs, rage and a large guild augment slot none but the first can have 300 hp at level 9.

Of course if I'm missing something please enlighten me, I like hit points just like everyone else :).




*I think I've read somewhere that the ML of GS items used to be lower, but the first one I made more than 2 years ago was ML 11, and so were all I made after that

[~eonone]

I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.

/golf clap

Excellent first troll post OP.

Ambiguous question which gives no relevant info for any actual discussion (at least what type of classes are you talking about with "low" hp at level 9) and allows you to brag about having 300 hp at level 9.

Well, done. I give it a 7/10 Troll attempt. I await more useless threads from you.

/golf clap

[mcalm3000]

"Even with ship buffs, rage and a large guild augment slot none but the first can have 300 hp at level 9.

Of course if I'm missing something please enlighten me, I like hit points just like everyone else :)."

Pls re-read main post. All I was concerned about was the large number of level 9 TR toons with less that 150 hp. 150 hp for a TR is a reasonable expectation. Im sorry if you dont think so but I certainly feel it is.

As for reachign 300, barb past lives and past life feat makes hitting 290 plus quite doable.

[~Overvaan]

Not everyone has 3 barb plifes and barb plife feat and is barb and is max cons dwarf with 2 more toughnes feats til lv 9 with tweak hp gear.
Most people dont gather gear in first life anyways or in 2nd.

[~Maus154]

Please OP, tell us more about how awesome you are. That's always a winner.

Also, help me out with a math problem I'm having here. Lets say we do a look at sources of HP by level 9, including in it gear, feats, constitution, and enhancements. I'm going to borrow from what someone else posted and add on:

108 HP - D12 Barbarian: 12 hit points per Level
90 HP - D10 Fighter Paladin: 10 hit points per Level
72 HP - D8 Monk Ranger Cleric Favored Soul: 8 hit points per Level
54 HP - D6 Artificer Bard Rogue: 6 hit points per Level
36 HP - D4 Sorcerer Wizard: 4 hit points

HP from +6 con item: 27
HP from +2 con tome: 9
HP from 16 base con: 27
HP from Greater False Life item: 30
HP from Toughness: 11
HP from Toughness Class Enhancements: 30 (0 if lacking)
HP from Toughness Race Enhancements: 30 (20 if less race)

Now I'm getting here a total of 272 for having a barbarian with full gear, tomes, enhancements, etc. Now I freely admit I suck at math, and Ive taken the liberty of ignoring guild augment slots. So, lets be honest, someone totally awesome would have used 300 HP as a baseline for level 9. And, well I should throw in another +9 for 18 constitution. That's getting us close to 300 at level 9. And I totally forgot to add in barbarian rages for a temporary boost to constitution. Of course, assuming I'm not an elven wizard and not a half-orc barbarian I'm estimating closer to 160 HP, totally unacceptable.

So yes, why aren't more TR's playing fully geared out level 9 barbarians. My only answer is its a real pain to stop what you're doing and keep running to the bank until level 11 to get a marginal advantage in levels that really don't need it to get through half-asleep. Especially since the real question that needs to be answered really is, are the other TRs dying that often even with less HP. If not, then the follow-up might be, why do you need so many HP at level 9 just to survive?

[mcalm3000]

Really?

[~Overvaan]

Please OP, tell us more about how awesome you are. That's always a winner.

Also, help me out with a math problem I'm having here. Lets say we do a look at sources of HP by level 9, including in it gear, feats, constitution, and enhancements. I'm going to borrow from what someone else posted and add on:

108 HP - D12 Barbarian: 12 hit points per Level
90 HP - D10 Fighter Paladin: 10 hit points per Level
72 HP - D8 Monk Ranger Cleric Favored Soul: 8 hit points per Level
54 HP - D6 Artificer Bard Rogue: 6 hit points per Level
36 HP - D4 Sorcerer Wizard: 4 hit points

HP from +6 con item: 27
HP from +2 con tome: 9
HP from 16 base con: 27
HP from Greater False Life item: 30
HP from Toughness: 11
HP from Toughness Class Enhancements: 30 (0 if lacking)
HP from Toughness Race Enhancements: 30 (20 if less race)

Now I'm getting here a total of 272 for having a barbarian with full gear, tomes, enhancements, etc. Now I freely admit I suck at math, and Ive taken the liberty of ignoring guild augment slots. So, lets be honest, someone totally awesome would have used 300 HP as a baseline for level 9. And, well I should throw in another +9 for 18 constitution. That's getting us close to 300 at level 9. And I totally forgot to add in barbarian rages for a temporary boost to constitution. Of course, assuming I'm not an elven wizard and not a half-orc barbarian I'm estimating closer to 160 HP, totally unacceptable.

So yes, why aren't more TR's playing fully geared out level 9 barbarians. My only answer is its a real pain to stop what you're doing and keep running to the bank until level 11 to get a marginal advantage in levels that really don't need it to get through half-asleep. Especially since the real question that needs to be answered really is, are the other TRs dying that often even with less HP. If not, then the follow-up might be, why do you need so many HP at level 9 just to survive?

You can have 30 more hp from barbarian past lifes, and if you pick barb plife feat it counts as prereq for racial/class toughnes and gives straight away 20 hps. So Can add those 50 hps and youl be easily over 300. It isnt hard to have high hps if you got past lifes and gear, but there is no reason to bother with it as nothing on elite at lv 9 requires 300+ hps

[~chrisdinus]

Really?

Meh, when I did my completionist, I'd rarely have that on any given life at level 9. Wasn't a problem, not that hard to avoid taking damage. Heck, I've often grouped with people with twice my hp only to have them ding and me survive. HP is really a rather poor survival stat, its just the only obviously visible one.

[~KrelarVersion2]

Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.

Because they are good players and don't need the HP?

Check out some of Mr.Cows diaries (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/237895-Diaries-of-a-True-Reincarnate-(Melee)?highlight=) and videos.

Here's one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJm33xKrVqk)of him doing shadow lord on a melee with 150 HP at level 9.

[Llewndyn]

"Even with ship buffs, rage and a large guild augment slot none but the first can have 300 hp at level 9.

Of course if I'm missing something please enlighten me, I like hit points just like everyone else :)."

Pls re-read main post. All I was concerned about was the large number of level 9 TR toons with less that 150 hp. 150 hp for a TR is a reasonable expectation. Im sorry if you dont think so but I certainly feel it is.

As for reachign 300, barb past lives and past life feat makes hitting 290 plus quite doable.

.

I am currently level 9, and have around 145 HP. I go through about 4 CSW potions a quest. I don't NEED the HPs. Most people who didn't OttoboTR or some such silliness know how to do more with less. That's what TRing used to mean - as in Aikido, you start overexaggerating everything, then hone it and hone it and hone it until you know EXACTLY what you need.

And now everyone HAS to have a barbarian past life? Nice troll, Champ.

I don't need 300 HP. I don't need 200 HP. I do great with 145 HP, and contribute a ton to groups (as an arti, I pass out buffs freely, I lay down turrets and snipe casters before the big bad melees get there, and I get traps). Out of the 10 TRs I've been through, I think only 4 had more than 500 HP at end game, and outside of the very tippity top elite players, most people would say I contributed well to a party.

Don't be so shortsighted. Pay attention next time, they might be able to teach you something :)

[~Teenah]

I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.

If you haven't been reading the rest of the forums. The Old Way of massive HP and a nanny-bot-know-your-role isn't the endgame anymore. Epic Elites have people building for saves. People making their saves a lot more often, and with better PRR, AC, Tactics, and experience; take less damage. Thus, they require less hit points.

PRR and Dodge are also 2 new abilities that take up gear slots to utilize, and utilizing them means you take less damage and need less HP. 16 Gear slots. 2 new features that mean you don't have all the same space for HP, nor do you need it.

Rangers, Bards, Pallies, and Druids will favor having more PRR and Dodge over having more HP. Having ample hp and minimal heals is a failing recipe. Having consistent damage on moderate hp with moderate heals is a recipe for success.

[PermaBanned]

I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.

Only when you don't need to be fully geared at level 9 will you understand "why."

[~eonone]

Really?

I thought you considered 150 hp to be "low" at level 9 (for what class who knows) and that "2/3 of a well-geared" person is what you expect, meaning 200 hp by level 9. Make up your mind, champ. Your trolling will be much smoother if you stick to one criteria.

[~Grumpycat]

First consideration is: Are they going for completionist/super completionist? If so, they're only worrying about getting to lv 20 so they can tr again and couldnt care less about HP or surviving end game.

Next consideration: Do they have the gear to compensate for the lack of HP? If they're a TR, then chances are they do

Third consideration: Is it any of YOUR business? No it isnt. I have friends with under 500 HP until they get into EDs. And they have gear, feat and enhancements that compensate for the lack of HP.

The push for higher HP brought about gimp toons. If you make your toon right, you dont need thousands of HP.

[~fedrericko]

For a veteran TR'er there is little challenge left in the game up till late levels even if running full bb except from a couple of twisted quests like In the flesh.

That said, the other day my friend kicked a 240 hp rogue that had just joined a full bb elite Amrath chain run (ml: 19). He began sending tells to my friend, apparently letting him now "hp is worthless if you don't know what to do with it". He, however, seemed to prefer to stay with a 400hp lvl 19 sorc and a 850 hp level 21 fighter than teaming up with, say, a 200 hp sorc, a 280 hp favored soul, and a 320hp ranger, players who -like him- know really well "what to do with hp".

[Llewndyn]

For a veteran TR'er there is little challenge left in the game up till late levels even if running full bb except from a couple of twisted quests like In the flesh.

That said, the other day my friend kicked a 240 hp rogue that had just joined a full bb elite Amrath chain run (ml: 19). He began sending tells to my friend, apparently letting him now "hp is worthless if you don't know what to do with it". He, however, seemed to prefer to stay with a 400hp lvl 19 sorc and a 850 hp level 21 fighter than teaming up with, say, a 200 hp sorc, a 280 hp favored soul, and a 320hp ranger, players who -like him- know really well "what to do with hp".

How do you know those players don't know what to do with HP? Sure, they could be terrible players who need a huge HP buffer to mitigate their stupidity, or they may be so insanely blurry/dodgy/incorporeal that 240 HP is all that's really needed, if the bad guys can only hit you 1 out of every 5 shots and you're letting the melees and caster grab aggro then you don't NEED a whole lot more than what he had. I'm NOT saying that was the case there. You or "your friend" (you) weren't comfortable with said rogue's HP and that's fine, I support that. But until you KNOW he is terrible, IMO, a chance can't hurt too much, can it?

Looking forward to hitting up those quests with my sub 400 HP artificer and giggling like a schoolgirl over voice chat while I kill circles around 900 HP barb clowns.

[mcalm3000]

Classic example low hp rangers kite even trash when they could do more dps by standing still and taking advatage of point blank. Same thing with low hp casters always running in circles. Go with a group o f low hp toons and you see a circus of kiting characters as compared to higher hp toons who can fight more efficiently.

Play what you want to play but low hp is low hp and it means running in circles, hiding in cornesrs and taking quests very slowly. also dying. low hp die all the time. I am so tired ot people who say low hp doesnt mater but dont run in pugs. In a group that doesnt always watch your back and doesnt have a perfect healer or no healer, hp matters more.

Also more hp lets you deal with lag which happens. Rolling 1 on a save happens too. For the sake of the game, I want an active pug scene but those who push the hp barely matters mindselt are really hurting tehepug scene because low hp toons push strong players away from pugs. 80 hp toons on level 9 content can die too easily. I really dont want the only pug quests at low elve to be teh necro quest and xorian where you need 4 peopl or lots of gold seals.

[~Sigh_Lint]

I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.

Certainly having low hitpoint totals is ideal for many a piking strategy. It doesn't get lower effort than riding around in someone else's backpack.

On the other hand, you could be making your observations early where it really doesn't matter, much. Quite by accident I realized on my most recent TR that I was carrying around level 5 gear at level 10, because I didn't notice the lack.

Some people just experiment on a TR, see for example, Zombie Fists (pale master monks), I TR'ed once to see if Armor Class was actually worth investing in (which got messed up around lvl 16 when the new Defense Chance rules came out). Some may want to add risk to their game play without having to deal with the hitpoint bloat of elite/Epic Elite and so compromise on handicapping themselves and play on hard difficulty.

Bear in mind that there are also a large number of people who are now TR's by virtue of the Experience Stone leap 8-16 (or whatever it was). So some of these players might not have "learned" enough in their previous life, and/or their twink gear starts at 17 or 18.

[Loromir]

I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.

I have a stable of 12 characters and onyl one if them is frequently TR'd. He rarely spend much time at level 20 or higher. I think I got him to 21 once. When TR'ing I spend so little time at a given level, I haven't bothered to get the best gear. In reality, I don't need uber high HP's to get to the next level. I have found, I can get through 20 lvls reasonably well with basic lootgen gear. I basically do just the minnimum gear wise to get through the TR life.

Now, the rest of my toons (Many of which are lvl 22-25) are accumulating the best gear I can get and are really stonger than my TR guy. I farm for equipment and destinies with those guys, but the TR guy doesn't do much more than Farm for XP.

[~Taeb]

Who cares. I don't only time i really care is if you're level 9 and have 60hp then yeah might be an issue. My only real issue is when a caster at 20 has 160hp buffed lol. arti level 21 with 200. So im just saying some people really need to get some help at higher levels. in a lot of epics you wont survive. the caster died 2 times in kings forest lol. So at higher levels its important for survival.

At low levels 9-11 anything above 135 is decent. I do worry a little when people are lower because with some things can 1 shot you or will just not be enough to survive an encounter. I've also seen players with low hp just do a great job as well. new players will always die a lot. some of the vets not so much. That is when you tell who is new or not normally.

[Llewndyn]

Classic example low hp rangers kite even trash when they could do more dps by standing still and taking advatage of point blank . Same thing with low hp casters always running in circles. Go with a group o f low hp toons and you see a circus of kiting characters as compared to higher hp toons who can fight more efficiently.

Play what you want to play but low hp is low hp and it means running in circles, hiding in cornesrs and taking quests very slowly because that's all I know how to do . also dying. low hp die all the time because that's what happens when I don't have a 1k HP buffer and a cleric standing behind me . I am so tired ot people who say low hp doesnt mater but dont run in pugs if people with low HP don't run in PUGs, how do all of these threads get started?. In a group that doesnt always watch your back and doesnt have a perfect healer or no healer, hp matters more.

Also more hp lets you deal with lag which happens. Rolling 1 on a save happens too. For the sake of the game, I want an active pug scene but those who push the hp barely matters mindselt are really hurting tehepug scene because low hp toons push strong players away from pugs. 80 hp toons on level 9 content can die too easily. I really dont want the only pug quests at low elve to be teh necro quest and xorian where you need 4 peopl or lots of gold seals.

What if the low HP players ARE the strong players, and don't need to PUG because instead of wasting a half hour wand whipping a barb back to full health they can just run through content alone much faster? That would lead to only those with high HP being AVAILABLE for PUGs, and as the player populace dumbs itself down more and more from lack of challenge due to having so much HP, you reach the logical conclusion: threads about how people with less than 300 HP at level 9 are gimp.

I KNOW there are players with low HP that are terrible. I know that. I also know on my last few lives that WEREN'T Fighter or Barb I went with Dodge/ blurry and those took the place of stuff that would have historically gone to defense and more HP to withstand a beating.

You know how when you go into Gianthold and try to fight those jerk Hobgoblins that are displaced without ghost touch or whatever? You know how annoying it is that you can't lay a hand on them for 8 out of 10 hits? That's what a lot of these players are going for. If I can make it so that you have to work 3 times as hard to hit me, why should I then gimp something else to take nothing but toughness feats for HP I will never get below?

Lag is a valid excuse, but let's face it if you have 500 HP and get hit with lag for 5 seconds or so and come back held, dazed, stunned, paralyzed, and Greater Commanded, it's not gonna matter much. LAG is the great equalizer, and I'm not going to build a character for lag because that would then imply I'm ok with Lag and I'm not.

[~kruemeli]

I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.

We have low HP because we do not need more.

Better questions would be: why can't TRs at least use a puzzle-solver yet, if not solve freehand? why no res clickie? et cetera.

[~fedrericko]

Looking forward to hitting up those quests with my sub 400 HP artificer and giggling like a schoolgirl over voice chat while I kill circles around 900 HP barb clowns.

I don't usually get laughs on other party members' performance, mainly because I hardly ever group with clowns (aforesaid rogue being an outstanding exception). If, however, you do get to group with clowns often my advice is that you up your game a bit so that you finally get to play with proper barbarians or DPSers of any kind. Don't take my advice very seriously though; I'm on a very different wavelength than anyone who's looking forward to giggle on party chat over a killcount.

[~Lorien_]

Play what you want to play but low hp is low hp and it means running in circles, hiding in cornesrs and taking quests very slowly. also dying. low hp die all the time. I am so tired ot people who say low hp doesnt mater but dont run in pugs. .

I DO pug, a lot.

And none of what you are saying is true. I'm in zerg mode whenever I am at those lowbie levels. But was reasonable non-twinked HP, and a bit of PRR/Dodge plus basic resits (even 20resist pots you can buy easily) you can sail through content at the lowbie levels you are talking about without any trouble, well, if you know how to play the game.

If you are a weak player who doesn't know the game well then I agree, you may need a few more HP. But seriously, what at L9 is even vaugely challenging to a good player?

[Llewndyn]

I don't usually get laughs on other party members' performance, mainly because I hardly ever group with clowns (aforesaid rogue being an outstanding exception). If, however, you do get to group with clowns often my advice is that you up your game a bit so that you finally get to play with proper barbarians or DPSers of any kind. Don't take my advice very seriously though; I'm on a very different wavelength than anyone who's looking forward to giggle on party chat over a killcount.

I giggle because I snort laughing gas while playing, so has little to do with anything much. Kill count doesn't mean a ton, but you can tell who is contributing more to baddies dying overall. If a melee has 80 kills and a bard has 2 but the only reason the melee could kill the 80 bad guys was because they were fascinated and all sorts of enchanted, I would say the bard contributed more.

No what I did here was make an overgeneralization using the same criteria the OP did, and because you agree with the OP you only see flaws in my logic. Nice job.

[Charononus]

What if the low HP players ARE the strong players, and don't need to PUG because instead of wasting a half hour wand whipping a barb back to full health they can just run through content alone much faster? That would lead to only those with high HP being AVAILABLE for PUGs, and as the player populace dumbs itself down more and more from lack of challenge due to having so much HP, you reach the logical conclusion: threads about how people with less than 300 HP at level 9 are gimp.

I KNOW there are players with low HP that are terrible. I know that. I also know on my last few lives that WEREN'T Fighter or Barb I went with Dodge/ blurry and those took the place of stuff that would have historically gone to defense and more HP to withstand a beating.

You know how when you go into Gianthold and try to fight those jerk Hobgoblins that are displaced without ghost touch or whatever? You know how annoying it is that you can't lay a hand on them for 8 out of 10 hits? That's what a lot of these players are going for. If I can make it so that you have to work 3 times as hard to hit me, why should I then gimp something else to take nothing but toughness feats for HP I will never get below?

Lag is a valid excuse, but let's face it if you have 500 HP and get hit with lag for 5 seconds or so and come back held, dazed, stunned, paralyzed, and Greater Commanded, it's not gonna matter much. LAG is the great equalizer, and I'm not going to build a character for lag because that would then imply I'm ok with Lag and I'm not.
While you technically have a point I've yet to see a low hp character actually do well or do more than kite in a circle trying to heal or screaming for heals. I would never recommend more than one toughness feat, or more than racial and if available class toughness enhancement level 2 as it takes away too much. Yet I've never built a toon where I'd have to sacrafice something important to take 14-16 con, you can take this much on any toon. Yet I find that I really do see tons of sorcs and wizards with half the hp I have or had on the same class with no greensteel, just basic con and false life items. I have no issue if someone wants to make a low hp gimp toon for a challenge but when you do so quests labeled byoh, zerg, elite, bravery bonus, really are not going to be a good match for you as you will probably not be contributing much other than scaling to that playstyle.

edit*
as far as blurry/ghostly
you can put those items on any toon no matter low hp or high hp and a hp toon with blurry and ghostly is more survivable than a low hp toon with blurry ghostly. In fact I can't imagine recommending anyone not use those types of items.

[AzB]

You know how when you go into Gianthold and try to fight those jerk Hobgoblins that are displaced without ghost touch or whatever? You know how annoying it is that you can't lay a hand on them for 8 out of 10 hits? That's what a lot of these players are going for. If I can make it so that you have to work 3 times as hard to hit me, why should I then gimp something else to take nothing but toughness feats for HP I will never get below?



True sight. No more problems with hobgobs, but more importantly, once you start running into monsters with TS, displace, blur, ghostly, dusk, etc no longer help. And you're back to being a pinata.

And this leads back into the primary discussion here; hit points are a valid buffer for a toon to survive when things don't go so well. Like getting held in acid rain. Happens fairly often for me... acid resist helps of course. But if the monsters are spamming hold monster, web, paralyzing, chains, sticky... whatever, you're going to take some damage. You can't move out of it, you can't heal, and you can't fight back to eliminate the threat. A ton of hp will help a lot in this situation and many other very similar.

And although I'm aware many people playing this game are quite talented with both their hand/eye coordination and memory skills, there are many of us that are far from perfect. At least not every day. We make mistakes, we forget which button to push, sometimes we push the wrong button... several times even after we're dead. More hp gives more of a buffer for those mortals among us.

That being said, I never refuse anyone from a group just because they have lowish hp. I've been taught some really interesting things from some of those toons. Whether by good or bad example, I find it interesting. And sometimes entertaining.

And yes, going gonzo stupid mega hp can make a player lazy and complacent because even when they play poorly, they survive. Most folks are more tolerant of that method than playing well and dying anyway. So the "more is better" crowd is a larger bunch.

There's also the tendency for humans brought up in a culture of marketing and over exposure to focus on a few important aspects of anything they're interested in, and if it can be reflected in numbers in a low=bad, high=good, ridiculous=respect format, even better because it requires less specific understanding and instead keeps it simple. (A great example of this is horsepower and family cars/trucks... for those who actually might be into racing and the technical aspects of horsepower, it's actually a pretty useless number on a fair number of vehicles. But that doesn't stop the horsepower wars! Even in the great minivan wars of the mid 90s, the top sellers were clamoring for higher hp numbers than the competition. Because it sells, not because it's important or even useful for those vehicles)

[~HunterScout]

Just figured I would chime in here. I played a group that specifically built for low HP.

They are all either wizards or sorcs.

2 levels of monk and rest either wizard or sorc.

Built with Con=6 in wind stance (http://ddowiki.com/page/Stance) with Bloodrage Symbionts (http://ddowiki.com/page/Bloodrage_Symbiont) equipped. (yes we actually farmed for them)

Additionally we added rules to our play on these toons. No False Life, no CON items, no toughness.

Here is one of the toons if you want to take a look Bugby (http://ddocrafting.info/myddo/thelanis/bugby/)

We started at 1st and are 8th level running with NO hires 3 toons and hit level 8 running elite streaks and on the whole haven't have any real issues, some deaths for sure but when you can be one shotted that has to be expected.

Will we hit 20 with these toons and these rules, no we won't because with 4 hp per level and the -4 hp penalty we haven't seen HP gains and in 3 or 4 levels glances will start to be one-shots but the point it made I believe.

It's got a lot less to do with HP and a lot more to do with player skill really and TR's are more likely to possess that skill.

[AzB]

We have low HP because we do not need more.

Better questions would be: why can't TRs at least use a puzzle-solver yet, if not solve freehand? why no res clickie? et cetera.

Because some of us are idiots? There are a couple puzzles in the game that I have tried to solve using wiki, etc, and still didn't get them. And yes, it was a solo run just to figure out the dang puzzle.

[Chai]

Bottom line: Most TRs arent twinks anymore.

TR used to be an endgame mechanic. Nowdays EDs are the endgame mechanic and the majority of players who TR do so to enjoy the game all over again.

Many of the players who are TRing for endgame reasons and could care less about enjoying the entire game are Xp stoning from 8-19. The TRs you encounter at level 9-18 have a much higher chance of being untwinked, not build enthusiasts, nto gear enthusiasts, and not doing it for simply adding a +1 to tactics or spell pen.

[AzB]

You can have 30 more hp from barbarian past lifes, and if you pick barb plife feat it counts as prereq for racial/class toughnes and gives straight away 20 hps. So Can add those 50 hps and youl be easily over 300. It isnt hard to have high hps if you got past lifes and gear, but there is no reason to bother with it as nothing on elite at lv 9 requires 300+ hps

You do realize that instead of taking the barb pl feat you could simply take toughness and get more hp, right? And toughness also opens up racial/class toughness enhancements.

I mean, it's not a huge difference, I just wonder why someone so obviously fixated on hp would throw away any hp?

[~adfsdasdaf]

on the whole haven't have any real issues, some deaths for sure but when you can be one shotted that has to be expected.

So why would someone want to be in a quest with you when they could have run the quest without you and gotten the flawless bonus? That is the point.


Will we hit 20 with these toons and these rules, no we won't because with 4 hp per level and the -4 hp penalty we haven't seen HP gains and in 3 or 4 levels glances will start to be one-shots but the point it made I believe.

The point that people are better off not having you in the party? Yes, I agree, proven.


It's got a lot less to do with HP and a lot more to do with player skill really and TR's are more likely to possess that skill.

Skilled players have enough HP to compensate for randomness.

[AzB]

Just figured I would chime in here. I played a group that specifically built for low HP.

They are all either wizards or sorcs.

2 levels of monk and rest either wizard or sorc.

Built with Con=6 in wind stance (http://ddowiki.com/page/Stance) with Bloodrage Symbionts (http://ddowiki.com/page/Bloodrage_Symbiont) equipped. (yes we actually farmed for them)

Additionally we added rules to our play on these toons. No False Life, no CON items, no toughness.

Here is one of the toons if you want to take a look Bugby (http://ddocrafting.info/myddo/thelanis/bugby/)

We started at 1st and are 8th level running with NO hires 3 toons and hit level 8 running elite streaks and on the whole haven't have any real issues, some deaths for sure but when you can be one shotted that has to be expected.

Will we hit 20 with these toons and these rules, no we won't because with 4 hp per level and the -4 hp penalty we haven't seen HP gains and in 3 or 4 levels glances will start to be one-shots but the point it made I believe.

It's got a lot less to do with HP and a lot more to do with player skill really and TR's are more likely to possess that skill.

None of this is really relevant to this thread because:

A) You were in a static group where everyone was doing this.

2: You're being purposefully ridiculous to make a point, while being a very experienced player most likely with all the locations of the monsters and traps memorized for each dungeon.

Adventure is not going boldly forward perfectly equipped, knowledgeable, and guaranteed no surprises. Adventure is going forth poorly equipped into the unknown, without any idea what might happen.

Your exercise only proves that with time and effort, the game can be mastered and played by a marshmallow with legs. If you find that fun, more power to you, but it doesn't mean anything. It's just an excuse to be silly and have fun. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

[Darkrok]

I have as many hp's as I need for what I'm running. Oftentimes I'll be selling out for dps and will be 100-150 hp's lower than my max while zerg-tr leveling because the quest doesn't call for that much health. I'll do things like swap out a GFL or hp belt for a tactics boost from spare hand for instance. Or on one life I was swapping out a hp necklace for improved deception from Golden Guile.

There's a certain number of hp's needed to ensure you don't die. That amount varies based on group composition, quest, difficulty, and class/abilities of the toon. Anything beyond that level of hp's is just showing off. If I can get a faster completion by running a level 18 quest at 350hp's rather than at 550hp's then that's what I'll do. As long as I'm not in danger of dying by doing so it just makes sense.

[~HunterScout]

Well lets start off with not sure why you are sounding so hostile. I am not trying to start a fight just show that HP of 150 isn't "required" and that HP aren't the end all and be all of measuring sticks.


So why would someone want to be in a quest with you when they could have run the quest without you and gotten the flawless bonus? That is the point.
To this point you will note that I said I play in a group not a PUG with these HP. We don't run with other random players though having said that if I swap into Earth stance and change out some gear is am breaking 100 hp. I have run exactly 2 quests with Pugs on this toon geared as such (to catch up on XP for a session I missed). I completed both those runs with no deaths, 1 was flawless and another was a Tear of Dhakaan run on elite with all opts and there were 2 or 3 deaths, none of them mine.

So from that perspective even a Con dumped elf arcane with "normal" gear is going to do fine. They don't need 200 hp, 100 with a good player will do just fine.



The point that people are better off not having you in the party? Yes, I agree, proven.
I see you missed the point the point is that low HP, even absurdly low HP doesn't mean that they cant' complete or contribute. It's not the end all and be all measuring stick it used to be. And for the record I haven't had a group dump me in or after quest nor have I had anyone berate me for being a drag on the quest performance even on these purposefully gimped toons.


Skilled players have enough HP to compensate for randomness.
I don't disagree, and the linked toon is certainly not how i normally build a toon for sure but the other side of that sword is that for many TR players they also ensure that they have enough skill to compensate for randomness. They can afford to sacrifice some HP, sometimes a fair bit of HP depending on the role/toon for greater effectiveness.

Sorry if somehow you took what I posted as a personal attack or something, it was NOT intended as such at all. Text isn't always the best medium for discussion. If I hurt your feelings or offended you in some way I sincerely apologize.

The gimp I linked to was simply put up as a worst case scenario where HP was purposefully nuked and with 2 guildies (both skilled players as well) we were able to eliminate HP entirely and still complete, in fact the vast majority of our quest runs completed with no deaths and we have only ever had 1 party wipe. I certainly would not recommend anyone build such a toon, nor would such a toon be able to make it to end game (though we want to try :) )

My point is, at it's core, that the best players are able to build for surviveability with a solid balance of HP, gear, feat/enhancement/skill selection and player knowledge and skill. Using just one aspect of that built to measure the whole will not always give you a good or even remotely accurate picture of what they are capable of.

[~HunterScout]

None of this is really relevant to this thread because:

A) You were in a static group where everyone was doing this.

2: You're being purposefully ridiculous to make a point, while being a very experienced player most likely with all the locations of the monsters and traps memorized for each dungeon.

Adventure is not going boldly forward perfectly equipped, knowledgeable, and guaranteed no surprises. Adventure is going forth poorly equipped into the unknown, without any idea what might happen.

Your exercise only proves that with time and effort, the game can be mastered and played by a marshmallow with legs. If you find that fun, more power to you, but it doesn't mean anything. It's just an excuse to be silly and have fun. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

I think that it is, but only in illustration of the point that HP is not always a good measuring stick.

For sure this group was built to simply see if it was possible, fully expecting that it will not be but why not try.

And yes, though I wouldn't say we have everything memorized, we are skilled players and used to playing together and there aren't really any true surprises left. Because every encounter has the potential to be the final one, and occasionally pulls more aggro than we expected, it's one of the few ways we can get that true feeling of "adventure" you describe. Running any "normal" toon, much less twinked or optimized ones doesn't present any real challenge at all at this point for us. Well not until we short man EE stuff at any rate.

[~HunterScout]

I have as many hp's as I need for what I'm running. Oftentimes I'll be selling out for dps and will be 100-150 hp's lower than my max while zerg-tr leveling because the quest doesn't call for that much health. I'll do things like swap out a GFL or hp belt for a tactics boost from spare hand for instance. Or on one life I was swapping out a hp necklace for improved deception from Golden Guile.

There's a certain number of hp's needed to ensure you don't die. That amount varies based on group composition, quest, difficulty, and class/abilities of the toon. Anything beyond that level of hp's is just showing off. If I can get a faster completion by running a level 18 quest at 350hp's rather than at 550hp's then that's what I'll do. As long as I'm not in danger of dying by doing so it just makes sense.

THIS would be a player who gets the point I am trying to illustrate. ;)

[Teh_Troll]

I love the false argument presented by some people that low-HP isn't a bad thing.

You sacrifice NOTHING in this game building for reasonable HP. 14-16 starting CON, basic items, done. You almost have to try to build a low HP toon.

yeah, putting all level-ups into CON and all feats Toughness is a dumb but so is thinking your sub-300 HP toon belongs in elite Amrath.

[DarkForte]

The answer is simple: because the TRs that know what they're doing won't bother running with you.

[Enoach]

I love the false argument presented by some people that low-HP isn't a bad thing.

You sacrifice NOTHING in this game building for reasonable HP. 14-16 starting CON, basic items, done. You almost have to try to build a low HP toon.

yeah, putting all level-ups into CON and all feats Toughness is a dumb but so is thinking your sub-300 HP toon belongs in elite Amrath.

^^ has a point - I think the Key Word here is "Reasonable"

HP should be seen as a buffer against death - Too little investment means you are a stone, too much investment will also be a stone as you do not have the ability to be ahead of your HP loss.

The Key is balance.

In my last life I joined a group at level 13 for Chains of Flames on Elite. I was immediately booted. I asked why politely and was informed that it was because I had less then 350 HP (Sorcerer Level 13 BTW). I thank them for their honesty, put up my own group for an Elite Chains of Flames - Got Troll tells from party leader that kicked me that I should be running it on Casual etc.

My group completed the quest with 0 deaths and 4 of us had just over 200 HP, one had 350ish and a tank at 400+

At level 14 the party leader joined one of my groups, where they mocked everyone for low HP, died 2x and killed 3 mobs in a level 14 Quest.

Reasonable HP is important, get away from the extremes and you will be happier

[Llewndyn]

While you technically have a point I've yet to see a low hp character actually do well or do more than kite in a circle trying to heal or screaming for heals. I would never recommend more than one toughness feat, or more than racial and if available class toughness enhancement level 2 as it takes away too much. Yet I've never built a toon where I'd have to sacrafice something important to take 14-16 con, you can take this much on any toon. Yet I find that I really do see tons of sorcs and wizards with half the hp I have or had on the same class with no greensteel, just basic con and false life items. I have no issue if someone wants to make a low hp gimp toon for a challenge but when you do so quests labeled byoh, zerg, elite, bravery bonus, really are not going to be a good match for you as you will probably not be contributing much other than scaling to that playstyle.

edit*
as far as blurry/ghostly
you can put those items on any toon no matter low hp or high hp and a hp toon with blurry and ghostly is more survivable than a low hp toon with blurry ghostly. In fact I can't imagine recommending anyone not use those types of items.

Before I got my last feat (8?) I had not taken toughness. I am out of my element playing artificer so was not 100% sure what was needed, and I don't rightly remember WHAT I took, though I think it was precision. I was routinely sitting, with 18-22 CON depending on buffs, at between 120 and 140 HP. I had yet to die.

At level 8 (I think? I don't pay attention to when I get feats, coulda been at 9) I took toughness, got out my sirens ward set for the +4 CON, and am now sitting at 189 HP. I was all excited when I got such a nice boost, I would wait an extra second or two to lay down my turrets to gather even MORE mobs than I did before when I played it more safe and used tactics and choke points to survive. I still don't die very often, but when doing way above level content I have died a few times whereas I did not have that issue before.

That's the argument I'm trying to make. For a lot of TRs (and no I have yet to use a stone of experience because I want to learn how to play each class on my way to completionist) you don't need as much, and when you don't have as much, it makes you think more and you have to pay attention to stuff more. That doesn't make me a lesser player; I know what I need and I know what I don't. Inevitably I will roll a 1 on disintegrate and bite it, or forget to have deathblock and deathward (which is so stupid that you need 2 things when they could easily be combined, but I digress) on and get higgity-hosed and end up a smelly spatter on a dungeon wall, but I can guarantee you it will happen less on this guy than it did on my 975 unbuffed HP standing fighter, because with that character I was always lulled into a false sense of security, that having that much HP would save me and it rarely did.

I will always remember a response I got when I asked a similar question of someone posting a "Don't Die" run for some tougher content: Get more HPs. Well if that's the only way to make it through a quest, to bloat your HP up so high that you NEVER have to think, or learn tactics, or worry if 4 ghaele's come that you are gonna be mincemeat, then why even call this DDO? Why not make it a WoW expansion pack? Part of what makes this game better is that instead of bloating up my HP I can mitigate damage in other ways; I can have really high saves, I can just NOT BE THERE when the bad guy starts laying down acid rain and trying to do that kind of stuff... there is another way, Padawan.

I am going to take a step back before this gets confrontational and concede that neither way is right, but I will stand by my statement that neither way is wrong, and just because you need 300 HP and all the best gear to make it through level 9 quests doesn't mean I need to. I have run through those quests a few times, so I feel like I have a good handle on what is needed, and truth be told I care little about artificer and just want to blast through this life so I can throw away all these dang rune arms and trapper gear to make way for my shuriken specialist dwarven pallybard...

If I join your group with low HP and die, make fun of me. I'll be a good sport about it. But what's good for the goose is good for Joe Mawma, and when you die I WILL make fun of you in return. Sound fair?

And LOL @ all the references to kiting, I kite sometimes because it's fun to do, and the skill may come in useful later. If I kite and then die, the aforementioned sentence about insulting me holds true, complete with reforming, kicking me from group and trying to sell my soul stone in trade chat. I have NEVER pulled so many bad guys that I have trouble though, and I would respond to that allegation that if I am pulling all the mobs aggro with my pew pew bow, maybe I'M not the problem? Hmm?

[~eonone]

I love the false argument presented by some people that low-HP isn't a bad thing.

You sacrifice NOTHING in this game building for reasonable HP. 14-16 starting CON, basic items, done. You almost have to try to build a low HP toon.

yeah, putting all level-ups into CON and all feats Toughness is a dumb but so is thinking your sub-300 HP toon belongs in elite Amrath.

I see you fell for the OPs troll post.

According to him anyone at level 9 with 150 hp has "low hp". And 200 hp is "reasonable". He later amended it that 150 hp is "acceptable" (I guess even he realized what a moron he sounded like with 200 hp as a critieria). At level 9.

He assumes that everyone should be gearing up for hp. So that they can break at least 150 hp. At level 9.

Basically, the OP wanted to brag about his 300 hp at level 9. As if it's an important feature of any character at level 9.

[jalont]

I love the false argument presented by some people that low-HP isn't a bad thing.

You sacrifice NOTHING in this game building for reasonable HP. 14-16 starting CON, basic items, done. You almost have to try to build a low HP toon.

yeah, putting all level-ups into CON and all feats Toughness is a dumb but so is thinking your sub-300 HP toon belongs in elite Amrath.

In some ways you're right, but in others you aren't. During most lives, I don't even take toughness till epic levels, or at all if I'm just going to TR at 20. At no point does that extra HP make my lives faster, while other feats do. And while I have gear for max HP at level, I'm not going to get around to putting it on right away. I will eventually.

People aren't necessarily building for low HP. Some people really do find this game easy and don't waste the time to pull their HP gear out of the bank every two levels.

[Thrudh]

I don't worry about hps when I'm TRing... The lower levels are so easy it doesn't matter... I'm not bothering with a lot of twink gear before Greensteel... Level 11 is when my hps (and power in general) jumps up

During my last TR, I jumped from 175 hps to 311 when I went from 10 to 11... Got my +6 CON stat item, +3 tome kicked in, 45 GS hp item, and Greater False Life item.

[~Raithe-8164]

During my last TR, I jumped from 175 hps to 311 when I went from 10 to 11... Got my +6 CON stat item, +3 tome kicked in, 45 GS hp item, and Greater False Life item.

Yes, greensteel has always been a significant factor in HP totals, and it usually allowed people at mid to high levels to jump up in hit points while actually possessing better (and more important) stats in other areas. Which is why people may see a 50 point or so drop in TR hit points - because greensteel is not as useful at cap anymore, so for a given character chasing the greensteel grind may be something that is no longer important (to their playstyle... it never was to mine).

As for the rest of the thread... as Enoach put it, if you have TOO MANY hit points, I'm going to call you being the FIRST to die. It usually works. Right after the last thread like this that I posted in, I had a stream of about 20 PUG groups where the first person to die, everytime, had the most hp in the group.

But go ahead and keep the noob-announcing up. Some of us like to know when we are going to need to be carrying your soul stones. 1000 hp or so should do it.

[Thrudh]

For the sake of the game, I want an active pug scene but those who push the hp barely matters mindselt are really hurting tehepug scene because low hp toons push strong players away from pugs.

Strong players take the first 5 that want to join and finish the quest. Every. Time.

What you describe above pushes weak players who think they are elite away from PUGs. And that's okay... we don't need weak players who think they are elite in PUGs.


80 hp toons on level 9 content can die too easily.

First you said under 200 was low, and under 150 was super low... Now 80 is the bar?

[Llewndyn]

If, however, you do get to group with clowns often my advice is that you up your game a bit so that you finally get to play with proper barbarians or DPSers of any kind. Don't take my advice very seriously though; I'm on a very different wavelength than anyone who's looking forward to giggle on party chat over a killcount.

Wait, what?

So, in order to group with good players I have to be MOAR AWSUM at the game? That means, by your very logic, that everyone who has run with a bad player is a bad player themselves, since the only way to play with "proper barbarians or DPSers of any kind" is to "up your game a bit".

Enlightening...

How does that work? I picture some guy working hard at killing stuff, maybe with a Rocky Montage playing in the background, rarely leaving his home...

in the end, he sits back, sweat stains on the pits of his torn muscle sweater, and proclaims: "I've done it. I am finally good enough that only good players will join my PUGs"....annnnnd scene.

Close?

[Chai]

When HP becomes the measuring stick, getting the most HP possible becomes tool the pile ons will use to cover up virtual piking through non contribution.

Ive seen this conversation go both ways:

1. If you dont have as many HP as I have youre a noob who needs to learn the game.
2. If you have more HP than I have and are calling me out for my HP total, you have no life and are basing your entire self esteem on how many HP your toon has in a video game.

Ive heard many of the same people say both of those things in the same night of playing.

[AzB]

When HP becomes the measuring stick, getting the most HP possible becomes tool the pile ons will use to cover up virtual piking through non contribution.

Ive seen this conversation go both ways:

1. If you dont have as many HP as I have youre a noob who needs to learn the game.
2. If you have more HP than I have and are calling me out for my HP total, you have no life and are basing your entire self esteem on how many HP your toon has in a video game.

Ive heard many of the same people say both of those things in the same night of playing.

/end of thread

[~derkluge]

I only need 1 hit point to be awesome.

[forummuleonly]

I only need 1 hit point to be awesome.


Well, I am not this uber, I need at least 3 con to be awesome.

4 is too much for me, especially on my fighter.

[PermaBanned]

... greensteel is not as useful at cap anymore...
hmm... A curious statement. While I can agree the old standard of Min2 (45hp/hvy fort/prot+5) is outdated as a cap beyond use as a stoneskin clicky; a Smoke item still fits nicely in my set up ;) In addition to the permablur & displace clicky, I give it +10 hp & +150 sp (or all 45 HP on my monk).

[~Lorien_]

I love the false argument presented by some people that low-HP isn't a bad thing.

You sacrifice NOTHING in this game building for reasonable HP. 14-16 starting CON, basic items, done. You almost have to try to build a low HP toon.

yeah, putting all level-ups into CON and all feats Toughness is a dumb but so is thinking your sub-300 HP toon belongs in elite Amrath.

You know the OP was talking about L9 quests and not Amrath right?

[~Raithe-8164]

...While I can agree the old standard of Min2 (45hp/hvy fort/prot+5) is outdated...

I never said any such thing. I said it wasn't AS useful, I didn't say it wasn't useful and I certainly didn't say it was outdated. It wouldn't be outdated even if it was completely USELESS at cap, because no other items in the game provide anywhere near the stat bonuses that greensteel does at such an early minimum level.

All but one of my capped characters has a greensteel accessory (and the only characdter I have ever TR'd is my cleric). Because greensteel is crafted, its where I put necessary item attributes that didn't fit in with the other epic gear. Only rarely does this involve HP bonuses (and usually just +10 if it does). More likely it is greater fire resistance, deathblock, fear immunity, or charisma skills (for UMD, +6) combined with 150 spell points. That's because those are things that actually provide increased survivability, which is what the noobs don't understand.

I can count the damage sources that do more than 400 damage to a player character in a single strike on one hand, and the one-shot abilities put in this game are FAR in excess of what they should be. Games like this have ALWAYS been about either avoiding damage in the first place, or healing. Unfortunately, the developers have decided it should mostly be the latter. That doesn't mean, however, that you need a big hit point pool (that will just make your team fail)...

...it means you need to be able to HEAL.

[ForumAccess]

I can count the damage sources that do more than 400 damage to a player character in a single strike on one hand

hrm.... We seem to be playing entirely different games.

[~Grumpycat]

Because TR = Con being a dump stat since they're so awesome now and have such kewl gear that they no longer need the extra HP

[~onionrings]

Answer to the OP's question: because some people give tiny rats ass about hp and can complete quests without floaties.

[~usernameanon]

Since I'm on like my 30th life I enjoy a challenge when I play my alts, I try different things. I have done dump stat con melee rogues, I have done the HP heavy barbs.
For me having low hp adds a bit of challenge especially when I also dump AC, not like that even means anything anymore.
Nothing is more fun then bringing a melee alt into epic elite with 220 HP.