"Be able to solo a tower" [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

mobrien316

05-03-2013, 01:21 PM

I see these LFM’s for Wizard King all the time on Thelanis. I understand anyone can put anything in their LFM, but I have always wondered why this is so prevalent.

If you can solo a tower, and someone joins the group and says they don’t think they can do a tower by themselves, how are you worse off than if they never joined the group at all? Is it going to take you longer to do the whole thing with two people than it would have taken you if you did the whole thing by yourself? Are you assuming anyone who can’t solo a tower is hopelessly gimp and you will have to carry them through the entire quest?

Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, but to me, this makes less sense than the ever popular “no noobs/don’t die/know it/have a clue” LFM’s. I understand that some people find it irritating to answer questions from new players and don’t want to deal with that. Do people posting “be able to solo a tower” or other, similar LFM’s believe that anyone who can’t solo elite quests at-level are useless? Personally, I have characters who can solo elite quests at level, and other characters who can’t solo but who can complete with no problems in a group. It doesn’t even have to be an awesome group, just a few other players.

What’s the rationale behind “be able to solo” LFM’s?

~swimmingjellycube

05-03-2013, 01:29 PM

~kruemeli

05-03-2013, 01:31 PM

In Wiz-King, it can be faster if you split the party, and have different people do different towers at once.

I'm not advocating for posting lfms like this, but
You need the person who joins your group to be worth the dungeon scaling that they cause.

I can solo the quest.
But if People are running up all the Towers at once... and I get a DA-RED then I die.

Sucks to be me!

~Theolyn

05-03-2013, 01:42 PM

If you cannot solo a tower on norm then yes you are a gimp :)

And it takes 6-8 minutes a tower if you have to follow me or 6-8 minutes for the whole quest if you can do your own ... I like fast xp and it is an xp farming quest

Also it is just a short way of saying ... we are going to split up, please try not to die, probably farming, BYOH, zerg run, and a few more things.
I am lazy why type all of that when I can just put "solo a tower"?

~Dyna-The-Cat

05-03-2013, 01:46 PM

Being able to solo/pair a tower on wiz king is a reasonable request for the quest.....

If you don't know how to run a tower, then the leader should pair you up with someone who can or take you up a tower him/her-self.... So, you can learn.

The only time the request for pairs is not reasonable is when doing EE. Maybe 2 sets of 3 in that case.

~Pho3nixx

05-03-2013, 02:06 PM

I always put up that kind of lfm for wizard king: 3 people soloing their towers complete the quest way faster than 3 people going together in the same tower.

If you cannot solo most heroic elite quests while lvling then yes, i consider you to be worthless in my party: there are exceptions of course (like running with the devils, monastery of the scorpion and some others), but usually people that aren't able to solo are a burden; it's better to run with few capable people than with a full party of people that need 10 heals to kill an archer I left behind while zerging ahead. It doesn't even depend on class: in my fighter life i soloed the same thing i soloed on my sorc lives, it just took a little longer, but it was never a problem.

Solo capable players are usually better: they can adapt to the situation, you don't have to explain basic strategies (like let the best person suited to survive aggro get it), they can usually rez if something goes wrong, they can self heal, they make dungeon completions faster.

I got nothing against people that want the "perfect" party composition to run quests, but our ways to view the game are so different that we'd better avoid to be in the same party ;)

Chai

05-03-2013, 02:12 PM

Actually yes, it will take longer, or be slightly more difficult, because of this wonderful thing called scaling. Scaling is an anti newbie device, because in quests where splitting up make it go by alot faster, another player in the zone means mob HP increase, saves increase etc.

Qhualor1

05-03-2013, 02:41 PM

DarkForte

05-03-2013, 02:50 PM

those "be able to solo" lfms basically mean "be able to handle DA" because that's what ends up happening in those kind of quests which is why I usually don't join them. theres plenty of people that can "solo a tower", but the real test is handling DA.

You need to suck inordinate amounts to cause DA on wiz-king. Please don't try to speak of groups that you have stated yourself that you never join.

Qhualor1

05-03-2013, 03:05 PM

You need to suck inordinate amounts to cause DA on wiz-king. Please don't try to speak of groups that you have stated yourself that you never join.

I said usually. in every group that I have joined has caused DA. I know others in the past on this topic have said the same thing. in your groups, you must kill everything along the way?

~wellpers

05-03-2013, 03:16 PM

Dungeon alert isn't all that easy to get in Wizard King.

First of all the skeletal archers don't cause dungeon alert under any circumstance which means you can ignore them completely. The rest go down real easy.

If you solo a tower and end up getting the wiz king and his minions for the boss you need to be prepared above Normal. That fight can be challenging for some characters. Beyond that it's no problem to have 3 people ( or 3 groups) taking a tower without generating dungeon alert.

~Lorien_

05-03-2013, 03:22 PM

I see these LFM’s for Wizard King all the time on Thelanis. I understand anyone can put anything in their LFM, but I have always wondered why this is so prevalent.

What’s the rationale behind “be able to solo” LFM’s?

Even accounting for going a bit slower due to scaling, three people can each solo a tower (or even better, 3 sets of 2) in half the time or less than you could solo the thing on your own. It often also becomes surprisingly social since people who are comfortable doing that are usually on autopilot and can chat about whatever (not always true of course).

So, basically, double the xp/min. I never say that in my LFMs but when we start I always ask the group if anyone or any group feels comfortable handling their own tower and it usually goes fine if we split, and if people are happier as a group, that's fine with me too.

those "be able to solo" lfms basically mean "be able to handle DA" because that's what ends up happening in those kind of quests which is why I usually don't join them. theres plenty of people that can "solo a tower", but the real test is handling DA.

That's nonsense. I'm not saying you haven't had that experience, but that's people who DON'T know how to solo a tower. In Wiz King the bad guys come in small predictable groups. If you kill as you go (running past archer turrets if you wish) then you will never hit more than green, or yellow for a few seconds if a couple groups start a big fight at the same time. If you are on orange somehow, you stop, tell people to kill things. And start up again with new things as it goes to green or disappears.

DarkForte

05-03-2013, 03:24 PM

I said usually. in every group that I have joined has caused DA. I know others in the past on this topic have said the same thing. in your groups, you must kill everything along the way?

You're doing it wrong. I guess people should be glad you don't join their wiz-king groups.

~Lorien_

05-03-2013, 03:25 PM

If you solo a tower and end up getting the wiz king and his minions for the boss you need to be prepared above Normal. That fight can be challenging for some characters. Beyond that it's no problem to have 3 people ( or 3 groups) taking a tower without generating dungeon alert.

Yeah, its sometimes best for people (especially if it has been a death free run) to ask for help for the final fight if they don't think they can handle that on their own (and obviously its easier for some classes than others and on some difficulties than others)

~Dyna-The-Cat

05-03-2013, 03:37 PM

I think the main thing is.... if you don't know how to solo a tower. Ask for a guide to run with you.

It just takes time to learn like with many of ddo's more advanced quests. :o

Once new people get it. It's pretty easy.

Lest, they really messed up their char and became gimpy. :rolleyes:

If that's the case, they should probably go run easier quests.

Qhualor1

05-03-2013, 03:42 PM

~Dyna-The-Cat

05-03-2013, 03:47 PM

couple days ago, I joined a EH wiz king. AFTER we enter the quest, the PL says for us to split up 3 and 3. apparently 3 and 3 means 2 and 4 as I went with the scroll healing monk on my barb and the others went to a different tower. we had yellow/orange DA most of the time. did my group suck so much that we caused DA? no, I don't think so. we completed just fine, but I know for a fact we didn't stop and kill everything.

Exactly that. There will be DA, but it doesn't cause much trouble. Especially if you pop invis pots or roll with a wiz that pops invis on you.

A little scroll healing / self sufficiency and you're done till efreet/dijinn/tower boss

Just don't fall in the pit at the switches. lol...

bsquishwizzy

05-03-2013, 04:08 PM

Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, but to me, this makes less sense than the ever popular “no noobs/don’t die/know it/have a clue” LFM’s. I understand that some people find it irritating to answer questions from new players and don’t want to deal with that. Do people posting “be able to solo a tower” or other, similar LFM’s believe that anyone who can’t solo elite quests at-level are useless? Personally, I have characters who can solo elite quests at level, and other characters who can’t solo but who can complete with no problems in a group. It doesn’t even have to be an awesome group, just a few other players.

What’s the rationale behind “be able to solo” LFM’s?

Most people either want a fast flag with high XP or XP farm that specific quest.

I may or may not be able to solo a tower myself on that quest on elite, but I don't. I've run it more times than I can count and still have no frickin' clue as to which tower is where, and how to get there. So I don't try. If I really need the flag, I run it solo on normal, and be done with it.

Plus I wouldn't read into an LFM what some plays consider others based on any given quest. Some people are all hot-and-bothered to get Completionist and don't want any slowdowns along the way. Some people are as you mentioned. Some people just want a fast run because they are pressed for time. Others, like I said, farm stuff for XP / minute. I've been playing for a while, and I don't feel comfortable in any of those situations, so I steer clear of those LFMs. But I wouldn't be so quick to assume intent based on this mode of doing the quest.

And yeah, if you don't know how to solo a tower, or haven't tried on your own, don't fricken' join. Your only asking for grief if you can't do it.

bsquishwizzy

05-03-2013, 04:12 PM

BTW, as a helpful hint, if you are putting up an LFM and expect people to solo a tower, state it please.

I've been in a couple where they didn't state it, but expected it when we entered. One group was cool with me not soloing. The other...um...got squelched. And yeah, the were jerks about it.

phillymiket

05-03-2013, 05:11 PM

Many join who struggle totally soloing a tower and I've never seen too much anger.

I think what people mostly want to be able to start fast, so when you get 3rd you start.

If you get people who need to be led around than you have to wait to get a fast team.

Also, people who fall through floors, die in traps, need to rescued or rez'ed at the top of a tower really, really slow things down.

I always figured that what the PL really wanted is a addition to the party that will slightly speed up the process rather than someone who will literally double completion time with tom foolery.

If you feel you would contribute to a faster completion then send a tell saying "I might have trouble with a tower if I pull the Wiz King but I'm pretty good" I can almost bet PL would take you and team you up with someone.

mobrien316

05-03-2013, 05:49 PM

I was wondering more along the lines of:

If my cleric is doing it, he can solo the quest. If pretty much anyone else joins (other than the extreme examples of idiocy) the quest will get done quicker, even if they can't solo and just run along with me. Yes, if the person dies every four seconds or runs around randomly until they get a DAR, it will not go quicker, but if they are average or above, regardless of how well they know the quest or whether they are able to solo a tower, it will still go markedly faster than if I do it by myself.

I'm surprised other people don't have the same experience. If you are on your self-sufficient whatever character, and another average-to-good-to-great player joins, why wouldn't you want them to join if they can't solo a tower? You'll still get done quicker than doing it alone.

Chai

05-03-2013, 05:59 PM

That's nonsense. I'm not saying you haven't had that experience, but that's people who DON'T know how to solo a tower. In Wiz King the bad guys come in small predictable groups. If you kill as you go (running past archer turrets if you wish) then you will never hit more than green, or yellow for a few seconds if a couple groups start a big fight at the same time. If you are on orange somehow, you stop, tell people to kill things. And start up again with new things as it goes to green or disappears.

If everyone does what you are talking about, then yeah, youre right. All it takes is one "ima run past it all" person in the group to make this incorrect however. Youll know who they are. THey are the one who appears to take no damage because their mobs are stuck in the landscape 3 stairwells away from them, while they are criticizing everyone else for not being able to handle the DA they themselves generated.

PermaBanned

05-03-2013, 06:08 PM

I was wondering more along the lines of:

If my cleric is doing it, he can solo the quest. If pretty much anyone else joins (other than the extreme examples of idiocy) the quest will get done quicker, even if they can't solo and just run along with me. Yes, if the person dies every four seconds or runs around randomly until they get a DAR, it will not go quicker, but if they are average or above, regardless of how well they know the quest or whether they are able to solo a tower, it will still go markedly faster than if I do it by myself.

Because they're not looking for someone who can turn a 40 minute one tower at a time trudge through the quest into 30 minute trudge through one tower at a time quest.

What they are looking for is someone who can turn a 30-40 minute trudge through one tower at a time quest into a 10 minute or less take all the towers down at the same time quest.

Seriously, how can you not see this?

ForumAccess

05-03-2013, 06:31 PM

If you can solo a tower, and someone joins the group and says they don’t think they can do a tower by themselves, how are you worse off than if they never joined the group at all? Is it going to take you longer to do the whole thing with two people than it would have taken you if you did the whole thing by yourself?
Yes, through dungeon scaling you can be worse off than if they had not joined.

What’s the rationale behind “be able to solo” LFM’s?
The rationale is that you can cut the quest time in third, or in the case of a quest like The Bloody Crypt you can cut it down to a quarter. No one is compelling anyone to join these quests. They just would like to find others capable of joining them to shorten their runs.

If you are on your self-sufficient whatever character, and another average-to-good-to-great player joins, why wouldn't you want them to join if they can't solo a tower? You'll still get done quicker than doing it alone.
Maybe it will go faster, but probably not by much. And if someone is looking to make things more efficient, they don't want a sidekick who is mostly just there to make themselves look good. They want a partner, who is able to hold their own and perform at the same level that they do.

My question in return would be "Why does this seem to upset people so much that you need to make posts such as have been some of the responses here?" If this type of LFM does not include you, then ignore it.

~Lorien_

05-03-2013, 06:44 PM

the forums have changed but not the posts I see.

in every group I have joined soloing a tower, there has been yellow/orange DA. the groups I join don't always stop to kill unless they have to. its power your way through the quest as quickly as possible so the group can earn max xp/min. slowing down to kill just takes too long for these groups. maybe in YOUR groups you actually stop to kill, but not the case for me.

Like I said, that's people who don't know how to do it. It works out slower and with more chance of -10%xp that way.

couple days ago, I joined a EH wiz king. AFTER we enter the quest, the PL says for us to split up 3 and 3. apparently 3 and 3 means 2 and 4 as I went with the scroll healing monk on my barb and the others went to a different tower. we had yellow/orange DA most of the time. did my group suck so much that we caused DA? no, I don't think so. we completed just fine, but I know for a fact we didn't stop and kill everything.

Looks like you self identified the problem. You caused the DA, change your tactics and you will have a smoother run that really won't be lower xp/min. Keep in mind the technique I mentioned earlier, if you want to rush you can run until you get yellow and then play stop and kill for a little bit so it drops back, then run attain.

Also on epic, scrolls.

~Lorien_

05-03-2013, 06:47 PM

If everyone does what you are talking about, then yeah, youre right. All it takes is one "ima run past it all" person in the group to make this incorrect however. Youll know who they are. THey are the one who appears to take no damage because their mobs are stuck in the landscape 3 stairwells away from them, while they are criticizing everyone else for not being able to handle the DA they themselves generated.

lol, that's true. Bad players in your group can always be a PITA.

PermaBanned

05-03-2013, 06:53 PM

My question in return would be "Why does this seem to upset people so much that you need to make posts such as have been some of the responses here?" If this type of LFM does not include you, then ignore it.

Because it's Mobrien. He's part of the same group that get their noses bent out of shape when when someone posts "know it" in an lfm.

In case you weren't aware, No one should post lfms that would indicate any thought along the lines of "I play this way, and am seeking the adventuring company of like minded indeviduals." Unless, of course, the way you play is his way, which is the "all welcome" style. Now I personally have no issue with "all welcome" lfms, however Mob & co clearly have issues with all non-"all welcome" lfms.

That is the driving force behind this thread, and the many more that are sure to follow.

Deadlock

05-03-2013, 06:57 PM

What’s the rationale behind “be able to solo” LFM’s?

Pretty simple math really. A half-decent party who can split up and solo a tower each will get a no-death completion of the quest and all optionals in 7 mins.

Rinse and repeat with an efficient party and it all works out good.

Why do I get the feeling that you already knew the answer to this before you asked the question though?

~Tronsector9

05-03-2013, 07:04 PM

PermaBanned

05-03-2013, 07:28 PM

When I look at LFMs, I look at them like Craigslist.

Looking for apartment: "Seeking female that can make me sammiches 1BR". -No, no, and no.

Lol Thanx for making me clean coffee off my monitor. ;)

mobrien316

05-03-2013, 07:41 PM

Because it's Mobrien. He's part of the same group that get their noses bent out of shape when when someone posts "know it" in an lfm.

In case you weren't aware, No one should post lfms that would indicate any thought along the lines of "I play this way, and am seeking the adventuring company of like minded indeviduals." Unless, of course, the way you play is his way, which is the "all welcome" style. Now I personally have no issue with "all welcome" lfms, however Mob & co clearly have issues with all non-"all welcome" lfms.

That is the driving force behind this thread, and the many more that are sure to follow.

If you bother to read my post, you'll see I was asking why people post this type of LFM, because it doesn't seem to make much sense to me and I was wondering what the rationale was for people who post them. I wasn't denigrating anyone who does so, I was asking why they do so. There's a difference.

It seems to me that if a person is soloing the whole thing, and a second person wants to join, the quest will get done faster whether that person can solo a tower or not. It will get done much faster if they can solo a tower, or somewhat faster if they can simply contribute without actually soloing a tower. The only way it might make any sense is if the person able to solo the whole thing is willing to wait, without starting the quest, until he gets one or two other solo-capable people to join his group. But that actually doesn't make any sense at all, because of you can solo a tower yourself, why would you be waiting for more people to join? You'd just mark it "IP" and start, leaving the "be able to solo a tower" on the LFM, which is what caused me to ask the question.

Deadlock

05-03-2013, 07:53 PM

If you bother to read my post, you'll see I was asking why people post this type of LFM, because it doesn't seem to make much sense to me and I was wondering what the rationale was for people who post them. I wasn't denigrating anyone who does so, I was asking why they do so. There's a difference.

It seems to me that if a person is soloing the whole thing, and a second person wants to join, the quest will get done faster whether that person can solo a tower or not. It will get done much faster if they can solo a tower, or somewhat faster if they can simply contribute without actually soloing a tower. The only way it might make any sense is if the person able to solo the whole thing is willing to wait, without starting the quest, until he gets one or two other solo-capable people to join his group. But that actually doesn't make any sense at all, because of you can solo a tower yourself, why would you be waiting for more people to join? You'd just mark it "IP" and start, leaving the "be able to solo a tower" on the LFM, which is what caused me to ask the question.

You mean, like if someone who has an XP pot running and would like to get a semi-static group together to farm the thing out?

That would be an example of a good reason to wait and get some decent bodies with you before starting your farm, particularly if people want to do an elite run and then farm it out on hard. Even though you might stick together for the elite run, you will want to split up for the hard farm.

mobrien316

05-03-2013, 07:57 PM

You mean, like if someone who has an XP pot running and would like to get a semi-static group together to farm the thing out?

That would be an example of a good reason to wait and get some decent bodies with you before starting your farm, particularly if people want to do an elite run and then farm it out on hard. Even though you might stick together for the elite run, you will want to split up for the hard farm.

That's the kind of answer I was looking for.

If it was obvious enough that it deserved the amount of snarkiness you inserted into it, someone else probably would have mentioned it already.

Regardless, thanks for providing a legitimate reason why it would make sense for someone who could solo the whole quest on elite to not do so while waiting for a "be able to solo a tower" LFM to fill.

NatashaelleTBDS

05-04-2013, 12:10 AM

When this kind of attitude becomes the norm, it kills the game -- I've seen it happen on the DDO Europe servers, so it's not just speculation and guesswork.

Soloists can last longer in that sort of environment than others, but this kind of LFM and the überer-than-thou attitude that goes with it are intensely off-putting to the more typical gamer who brings in the bread-and-butter for a gaming company.

Khatzhas

05-04-2013, 03:52 AM

~Pho3nixx

05-04-2013, 05:22 AM

Yes, this particular quest and the attitudes around it can cause issues, but in general, despite the many "BYOH" discussion threads that were on the old forums, there are still groups for new players available, just not usually for that quest.
Also, a few of the people who make that type of LFM would probably be happy to guide people who haven't done it before around, just not when they have that particular LFM up. People like Pho3nixx are thankfully the minority of the general playerbase.

Where do you get that i do not lead new people around? :)

If my group reads "be able to solo a tower" is cause i want to get the quest done fast..if i'm in the mood of helping some new people i just join their lfm and help them doing what they want ;)

Beside that, i'm a fast learner, i love fast learners, so i'm more than happy to run with new people that like to become better, but playing with slow people just make me sad, so i'd prefer to avoid them.

It's a game, we are here to have fun, people shouldn't be forced to do something that isn't fun for them.

As i said in the previous post, i got nothing against people that like to have their perfect party, that want to stay together, that kill everything along the way: it's not a playstyle i like though, so i try to avoid them(by reading the lfm description) and i'd like them to avoid me if they do not like my playstyle (by reading the lfm description). It's quite simple really and makes everybody happy :)

~Reikara

05-04-2013, 05:27 AM

That's the kind of answer I was looking for.

You mean the answer everyone was giving? Because what he said was simply different wording with the same exact meaning.

mobrien316

05-04-2013, 05:49 AM

You mean the answer everyone was giving? Because what he said was simply different wording with the same exact meaning.

Really? You read all the other answers and in each one you saw "because someone might post that LFM and not start, waiting for a static group to do the quest once on elite and then farm it on hard"?

No one else said that. I don't know what you were reading, but no one said or implied that.

phillymiket

05-04-2013, 05:51 AM

~Vint78

05-04-2013, 06:44 AM

Really? You read all the other answers and in each one you saw "because someone might post that LFM and not start, waiting for a static group to do the quest once on elite and then farm it on hard"?

No one else said that. I don't know what you were reading, but no one said or implied that.

It is the same for every thread you make about people not wanting to hold hands. (Word lawyer that all you want, but you know what it means).
Overlook scaling all you want, but this is a big part of it.
The other reason I do not approve is that it adds to the DDO welfare problem we have. The more people like you hold hands and do not hold people accountable, the harder it is for others to find decent LFM’s at high level. These non-soloing a tower people will expect everything to be given to them.

Khatzhas

05-04-2013, 07:09 AM

Where do you get that i do not lead new people around? :) I was commenting on your attitude to players who are likely to be new to the game in general, not about leading them around a specific quest.

You stated that you considered anyone unable to solo elite quests to be "worthless", and a "burden". That is a fairly clear statement on your behalf. The majority of new players would be included in those you consider worthless and a burden to you.

You are absolutely entitled to make sure that you don't get inexperienced people joining your LFMs. Its always leader's prerogative over who is allowed and who is excluded.

I think that the OP was mostly due to the catch-22 situation that the newer players are thus placed in: they can't get into the groups because they can't solo the towers, and they can't solo the towers because they can't get get into the place and learn what you need to do.
Most new players are not happy about leading LFMs, and will probably level past the range without being able to find a non- "Solo tower"/"BYOH"/"Know it" group for the place.

This can be a problem in general, but it just seems to be much more common for the Witch-King run.

~Vint78

05-04-2013, 07:31 AM

I think that the OP was mostly due to the catch-22 situation that the newer players are thus placed in: they can't get into the groups because they can't solo the towers, and they can't solo the towers because they can't get get into the place and learn what you need to do.

This is the misconception here.

I am not here to entertain you. I am not here to make sure you have a good time. I am not here to make sure everyone gets into a good group.

There is more ways to learn this game than just by following me. They can solo is on casual, read the wiki, or post their own LFM to try and learn it.

There is no catch 22 about it. People feel entitled to join whatever group they want and could care less that people like me just want to group with like-minded people.

I guess I can also reply as Turbine does. Don’t like it, leave.

Khatzhas

05-04-2013, 09:44 AM

This is the misconception here.

I am not here to entertain you. I am not here to make sure you have a good time. I am not here to make sure everyone gets into a good group. That is a misconception. No one is suggesting that you are obliged to.

It is entirely the party leader's choice to set the rules of their group, to assist newbies, or to exclude them. It is the responsibility of other players to only join groups that you meet the prerequisites for.
Nowhere in the game mechanics or LFM system is there any requirement for helping people out.

As pointed out, the less experienced players are generally not comfortable in a leadership role, and may not know of the assorted guides out there. If they see only groups that they are ineligible for for the Witch-King, they will just join a group for somewhere else that they are allowed in instead. They will level past the range for Witch-King very fast anyway, so being unable to run it for XP or raid flagging purposes will generally be an issue.

Charononus

05-04-2013, 09:54 AM

That is a misconception. No one is suggesting that you are obliged to.

It is entirely the party leader's choice to set the rules of their group, to assist newbies, or to exclude them. It is the responsibility of other players to only join groups that you meet the prerequisites for.
Nowhere in the game mechanics or LFM system is there any requirement for helping people out.

As pointed out, the less experienced players are generally not comfortable in a leadership role, and may not know of the assorted guides out there. If they see only groups that they are ineligible for for the Witch-King, they will just join a group for somewhere else that they are allowed in instead. They will level past the range for Witch-King very fast anyway, so being unable to run it for XP or raid flagging purposes will generally be an issue.

BS, my first toon I decided I wanted to understand that quest so I went in on normal with a cleric hire with a pally. It was a very long completion on that first toon, but i did it and from then on never had any problem joining groups for it. Crying that new players aren't being taught isn't the answer, new players need to take responsibility to learn things for themselves and not have their hand held every step of the way.

~dravael

05-04-2013, 11:46 AM

BS, my first toon I decided I wanted to understand that quest so I went in on normal with a cleric hire with a pally. It was a very long completion on that first toon, but i did it and from then on never had any problem joining groups for it. Crying that new players aren't being taught isn't the answer, new players need to take responsibility to learn things for themselves and not have their hand held every step of the way.

Similarly, on my first character, I accidentally skipped it altogether until cap (there was a lot of XP for a first life back 3 years ago...there's a LOT more now, too)...so I went back at cap and learned it while flagging for wizard king. Spent almost 2 hours learning it, but I haven't ever needed anyone to teach me the quest (I haven't even looked it up on the wiki other than seeing how you get Conquest...but I've even written my own snippet as to which tower has which boss dependent on which boss is in any one tower). I'm exasperated by the attitude among some that if we don't hold the hands of people, they'll never learn....on the contrary, I think if we keep holding their hands, they'll NEVER get to learn. People who want to learn should, quite honestly, run the content themselves (either solo or in their own group, with or without the wiki) as a learning run - nothing in this game is complicated enough (outside of a couple raids, such as Abbot) that this falls behind as about the best way to learn the game.

~Grumpycat

05-04-2013, 05:13 PM

Be able to solo a tower...

Lets start with TR. Next, XP/min. Then boredom of soloing.

3 people soloing a tower each means that one of you will hit the boss in 1 run. This way, you dont have the possibility of having to hit all 3 towers to complete.

Be able to solo a tower means, to me anyway, Im a TR and trying to speed thru this XP. Come join me and make it faster.

ForumAccess

05-04-2013, 05:42 PM

I'm exasperated by the attitude among some that if we don't hold the hands of people, they'll never learn....on the contrary, I think if we keep holding their hands, they'll NEVER get to learn. People who want to learn should, quite honestly, run the content themselves (either solo or in their own group, with or without the wiki) as a learning run - nothing in this game is complicated enough (outside of a couple raids, such as Abbot) that this falls behind as about the best way to learn the game.
Quote For Truth

It is not infrequent that I hear people going on and on about how they know so much about the game, and they were taught everything by such-and-such player with an excellent server reputation, and so much more. But every time that it comes to learning some type of new content, these are the same people who keep leading groups to faceplant in it over and over again by trying to apply existing strategies. By going and learning content yourself, you also become better at quickly adapting to other new things. Those who are just shown paths, rather than finding them, often end up being unprepared to find new paths as they are created.

they can't get into the groups because they can't solo the towers, and they can't solo the towers because they can't get get into the place and learn what you need to do
Or, they could do a run to learn the map, and then watch a YouTube video of someone soloing it. MrCow's videos are rather old, but still exceptional. And there are countless others, some good some not so much, who have posted videos of quests since then. By looking at the differences between what they did, and how a veteran player runs it at the highest difficulty they should be able to figure out what they need to do with their character in order to progress, at least with a friendly guild or channel mate to answer some questions for them.

But many players do not actually want to get better and contribute. What they really want is to log in, hit a random LFM, and half-pike their way to easy completions. This change in the community is what drove people away from using the LFM system, and to private guild and channel groups. And now this type of player is left complaining about the inactivity of the LFM system.

~dravael

05-04-2013, 06:19 PM

Quote For Truth

It is not infrequent that I hear people going on and on about how they know so much about the game, and they were taught everything by such-and-such player with an excellent server reputation, and so much more. But every time that it comes to learning some type of new content, these are the same people who keep leading groups to faceplant in it over and over again by trying to apply existing strategies. By going and learning content yourself, you also become better at quickly adapting to other new things. Those who are just shown paths, rather than finding them, often end up being unprepared to find new paths as they are created.

Or, they could do a run to learn the map, and then watch a YouTube video of someone soloing it. MrCow's videos are rather old, but still exceptional. And there are countless others, some good some not so much, who have posted videos of quests since then. By looking at the differences between what they did, and how a veteran player runs it at the highest difficulty they should be able to figure out what they need to do with their character in order to progress, at least with a friendly guild or channel mate to answer some questions for them.

But many players do not actually want to get better and contribute. What they really want is to log in, hit a random LFM, and half-pike their way to easy completions. This change in the community is what drove people away from using the LFM system, and to private guild and channel groups. And now this type of player is left complaining about the inactivity of the LFM system.

I'd like to say something on your last point about why people don't put up LFMs anymore...I put up my standard LFM today for low levels (leveling my monk now as a TR), and had an interesting experience that is the type of reason a lot of my people I know (including in my own guild) don't even put up LFMs.

I put up my LFM for the carnival chain (lfm said "Whole Chain on Elite for BB ~ BYOH, Fast Paced", which wasn't an issue with anyone that joined). Throughout the run, we had 4 people who joined and left before even getting to a quest (including 1 that left because they wanted to do Snitch when we were doing Big Top, and one that left because we wouldn't share Big Top with them), 1 person who piked the entirety of A Small Problem (they barely moved from the beginning, and caused us -10% xp when tieflings spawned near them), and a couple more minor incidents (including dying then DCing, and not coming back). The problem is, these results from my LFM are NOT rare, and they are EXACTLY the type of reasons that so many people don't even put up LFMs at all, and why many vets have been rather unwilling to teach new players since around the same time I started playing (I started on the first day of f2p, so I got the full experience of having to learn a lot on my own). I don't think there is a problem with people being unwilling to teach in this game, though...I think the problem is with the majority of people being unwilling to LEARN in this game (for a full range of reasons, from "don't spoil it for me" to "I know everything about this game already" to outright hostility to ignoring any advice given them).

As to the original topic of this LFM, the same issues cause these types of LFM to be the most common type, but the reason is that it's generally a TR looking for quick XP, so they put up an lfm hoping to get people who can turn a 30-minute solo to a 7 or 8-minute zerg. Honestly, though, my best advice for learning this quest (along with many other like it) would be to solo it on a character with enough int to read the tablets, and learning the various aspects of the quest...a TR group is most likely to carry someone through without them really learning anything (even if the group sticks together), where as a solo run gives them the opportunity to learn just how much there is to the quest (and checking the wiki can help fill in some gaps, though some knowledge (such as knowing which boss is in which tower after checking one tablet - to my knowledge, there are only three possibilities of boss locations...such as, if hami is in tower 1, hafez is in tower 2 and raiyum is in tower 3, though this was tested around a year ago and may have changed since) simply requires many runs to learn.

Edit: Heh, got logged out editing this post. Yay for new forums? Also, apparently auto-refreshing a page does NOT keep me logged in, which is ********.

Khatzhas

05-04-2013, 06:41 PM

~atomicmew3

05-04-2013, 09:00 PM

As pointed out, the less experienced players are generally not comfortable in a leadership role, and may not know of the assorted guides out there. If they see only groups that they are ineligible for for the Witch-King, they will just join a group for somewhere else that they are allowed in instead. They will level past the range for Witch-King very fast anyway, so being unable to run it for XP or raid flagging purposes will generally be an issue.

Nobody cares.

This game is incredibly easy even on EE compared to other games out there (http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/11/21/fifteen-really-really-really-hard-games). My generation grew up with games so hard that the majority of players literally could not complete regardless of how much time they spent trying... and you're complaining about new players not being able to learn freaking heroic wiz king? Are you real? If a new player seriously can't spend the truly modicum of effort it takes to learn this quest on normal then they should immediately GTFO. They're either casual (fine) or clueless (not fine). This quest on normal is a freaking cake walk in the mf park. Get off my lawn.

phillymiket

05-04-2013, 10:38 PM

Nobody cares.

This game is incredibly easy even on EE compared to other games out there (http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/11/21/fifteen-really-really-really-hard-games). My generation grew up with games so hard that the majority of players literally could not complete regardless of how much time they spent trying... and you're complaining about new players not being able to learn freaking heroic wiz king? Are you real? If a new player seriously can't spend the truly modicum of effort it takes to learn this quest on normal then they should immediately GTFO. They're either casual (fine) or clueless (not fine). This quest on normal is a freaking cake walk in the mf park. Get off my lawn.

Lol

My, oh my.

Ok, I read between the "Nobody cares" and the "Get off my lawn" but I didn't really get your point.

No disrespect to Battletoads but that is whole different thing and I don't even see a correlation to todays games, to be honest.

I don't think pattern memorizing, timing and twitch button smashing, while important in DDO, is what is off-setting to newer folks. I think it's more the social thing of having some yahoo giving you a hard time in party chat while you are struggling.

So while some of those scroll games had tough moves you had to make, being mostly solo or head-to-head games, they don't have the pressure of failing while grouped with hostile teammates.

I guess I'm glad I learned these quests when there was a good chance you could find a pug that you could learn a few things rather than the 80% speed runs that happens now.

Ironically, 90% of the time I'm speed running myself. just the nature of the beast I guess.

Double ironically, the first time I ran Wiz King I joined a unlabeled LFM that turned out to be a speed farm. I joined late and everyone laughed at me while I wandered around chasing blue dots that were on totally different levels than I was, and fell through every floor I could find.. It was actually kinda funny and everyone was good natured about it. I went back with my guild leader a bit later and got a proper tour.

I figure if you aren't going to teach than go ahead and put "Be able to solo" in the LFM rather than let someone wander in unawares like I did, even though it was a good time.

However, I'm not sure why, if the first two that join are capable to solo a tower, why you wouldn't just take any three and pair them with a capable person?

I don't like poking around myself and if the choice is crawl with a new person or fly without than I choice to fly. If I saw two LFMs for WK, one said "zerg" and the other said "need guide" than I'm hitting the zerg, no doubt.

Usually though you can take one or three new folk along on just about anything, including Wiz King farms, without slowing things down at all.

That seems the nicer thing to do so if possible I would choose that.

But in the end whoever starts the group makes the call and there is no reason to judge someone harshly when you can just start your own group.

~Vint78

05-04-2013, 11:21 PM

I don't think pattern memorizing, timing and twitch button smashing, while important in DDO, is what is off-setting to newer folks. I think it's more the social thing of having some yahoo giving you a hard time in party chat while you are struggling.

This is where the frustration comes from though.

The “yahoo” would not be yelling at someone if they knew what they were doing. This is why they put that (add elitist comment here) in the LFM. They did not want to be a mentor or guide. Obviously if there is no comment in the LFM, a PL should not be yelling at anyone. However, if it is clearly marked (and we do not need another word lawyer thread), then the new person has no one to blame but themselves for joining the group.

If it comes down to someone saying that it will kill the game, so be it. It is not fun for me to go slow. I’d rather DDO shut down tomorrow over having to hold hands and be miserable playing.

Not trying to flame you Phily, but the OP just does not understand that we are all not about DDO welfare.

phillymiket

05-04-2013, 11:43 PM

This is where the frustration comes from though.

The “yahoo” would not be yelling at someone if they knew what they were doing. This is why they put that (add elitist comment here) in the LFM. They did not want to be a mentor or guide. Obviously if there is no comment in the LFM, a PL should not be yelling at anyone. However, if it is clearly marked (and we do not need another word lawyer thread), then the new person has no one to blame but themselves for joining the group.

If it comes down to someone saying that it will kill the game, so be it. It is not fun for me to go slow. I’d rather DDO shut down tomorrow over having to hold hands and be miserable playing.

Not trying to flame you Phily, but the OP just does not understand that we are all not about DDO welfare.

S'cool.

I agree that it's better to put a qualifier in the LFM if you are going to be fast and unforgiving. It's rude to ignore a LFM regardless what it says, IMO.

Honesty. I think people see the world the way they want to sometimes.

Some people, maybe OP maybe not, see much of the community as 1%ers aligned against them.

Some people, maybe you maybe not, instead see much of the community as riding coat tails.

I figure it's just a bunch of people doing stuff for their own reasons.

Some are new folks are lazy, sure, but i don't think we have a "welfare problem".

Most people seem pretty eager to do things for themselves where they can, at least from my experience.

But then again, I'm on Ghallanda where the sky rains bacon and kobolds **** rainbows so it might be different for you.

taurean430

05-05-2013, 12:29 AM

That is a misconception. No one is suggesting that you are obliged to.

It is entirely the party leader's choice to set the rules of their group, to assist newbies, or to exclude them. It is the responsibility of other players to only join groups that you meet the prerequisites for.
Nowhere in the game mechanics or LFM system is there any requirement for helping people out.

As pointed out, the less experienced players are generally not comfortable in a leadership role, and may not know of the assorted guides out there. If they see only groups that they are ineligible for for the Witch-King, they will just join a group for somewhere else that they are allowed in instead. They will level past the range for Witch-King very fast anyway, so being unable to run it for XP or raid flagging purposes will generally be an issue.

Less experienced players should actually be grouping with each other. Not attempting to enter posted and defined speed runs/xp farms/zergs and change the dynamic.

If there are no lfm's up that are newbie friendly for the quest they wish to run then they should post them. There is no requirement for people to change their play style to accommodate less experienced players. I learned these quests by playing them, not by having someone do them for me...

mobrien316

05-05-2013, 05:57 AM

mobrien316

05-05-2013, 05:58 AM

~Pho3nixx

05-05-2013, 06:22 AM

Lol

I guess I'm glad I learned these quests when there was a good chance you could find a pug that you could learn a few things rather than the 80% speed runs that happens now.

Ironically, 90% of the time I'm speed running myself. just the nature of the beast I guess.

Exactly. It's not players' fault if TR2+ xp requirements are so high at mid-high levels to "force" people to speed farm things to get levels in a decent amount of time. So people will just zerg through quests to get xp as fast as they can.

If i didn't have to run wiz king 1E/8H/1N to see my xp bar moving at a decent pace, i would be more than willing to run it on E/H/N without being too much worried if a run takes 10 minutes or 20 minutes. When you have to repeat something so many times adding 10 more minutes to each run means you have to spend 100 more minutes in there.

So people should think a little more before blaming other players of being mean: it's just the environment we are playing in that make us faster and more aggressive.

Considering Turbine is selling xp pots to "solve" this problem though (their way of solving lots of "problems" is just creating the problems and then selling the solutions in the store), things will never change. So it's better to get used to this kind of attitude in groups and learn to be fast: otherwise just create your flower sniffing lfm and play with like minded people :)

~Pho3nixx

05-05-2013, 06:45 AM

I still haven't heard any answers as to why someone who can solo the whole thing themselves, and who has already started the quest, would refuse to let anyone else join unless they can solo a tower.

Cause the lfm states "be able to solo a tower"? If i had to make exceptions for everyone that join, i could as well not put "be able to solo a tower" in the lfm. It would be like those lfms that read "know it--no noobs" and the leader is a noob himself and don't know the quest: lfm restrictions are a sort of rules, why make them if you are going to break them? :D

~Vint78

05-05-2013, 07:43 AM

Considering Turbine is selling xp pots to "solve" this problem though (their way of solving lots of "problems" is just creating the problems and then selling the solutions in the store), things will never change. So it's better to get used to this kind of attitude in groups and learn to be fast: otherwise just create your flower sniffing lfm and play with like minded people :)

This is a huge problem. If I take 40 minutes in every quest I will never see 20 again. I prefer to get back to 20 on a tr2 in less than 2 weeks. The only way I can do this going slow is by drinking xp pots. No thanks. Until Turbine fixes the xp issue, don’t count on me going slow.

My question, which was clearly poorly worded, was supposed to be more like:

Why do so many people post an LFM for elite Wizard King that read reads, "Elite, BB, be able to solo a tower, IP"? The reason I'm curious is because it seems to me that, if you are solo capable and have already started the quest, any non-idiot who joins is going to help you, even if they can't solo a tower.

This is an easy one as well. If I take the first 5 that hit the LFM, I am looking at a 20-25 minute run. If I am selective and get just 2 more competent people, I am down to 10 minute runs.
A full group 20 minutes, or 3 man group 10 minutes?

~Pho3nixx

05-05-2013, 08:06 AM

This is a huge problem. If I take 40 minutes in every quest I will never see 20 again. I prefer to get back to 20 on a tr2 in less than 2 weeks. The only way I can do this going slow is by drinking xp pots. No thanks. Until Turbine fixes the xp issue, don’t count on me going slow.

Indeed, zerg ftw :)

~chrisdinus

05-05-2013, 08:29 AM

This thread was not intended to be about whether anyone should be teaching new players. It was also not intended to be read as "why would anyone want solo-capable people in their group?"

My question, which was clearly poorly worded, was supposed to be more like:
Why do so many people post an LFM for elite Wizard King that read reads, "Elite, BB, be able to solo a tower, IP"? The reason I'm curious is because it seems to me that, if you are solo capable and have already started the quest, any non-idiot who joins is going to help you, even if they can't solo a tower. If it takes you forty minutes to complete on your own, and someone else joins who can't solo a tower but can help you, and together that gets you a 35 minute completion instead of a 40 minute completion, why wouldn't you let them join?

One person pointed out that, if you are planning to farm it on hard, it makes sense to wait for other solo-capable players to join before starting your elite run.

I still haven't heard any answers as to why someone who can solo the whole thing themselves, and who has already started the quest, would refuse to let anyone else join unless they can solo a tower.

Not that I pug Wiz-king, with or without LFM rules, but a couple of points that might address your question. I generally just run with a static group of friends that I joined the game with.

1) I would suppose that the issue is if you take people who can't solo a tower, they take up the party slot of someone who could. Now, given the nature of wiz-king, you could take up to 3 pikers and not affect the completion time particularly. But, if I was leading a pug, I'd make sure I had the 3 solo capable toons first, lest I get stuck in a group full of people who can't, leading to inflated completion times.

2) Depending on the toon I suppose, but, no, if you can't solo a tower, you won't speed it up. For example, on a cleric life, I won't stop running the entire time. No need to. Blade Barrier works better if I keep the mobs moving anyway. All you do is give the mobs extra hp and higher damage. So, in such a situation, taking a any player who can't solo a tower probably has no real impact on the completion time.

~popejubal

05-05-2013, 08:35 AM

I'm exasperated by the attitude among some that if we don't hold the hands of people, they'll never learn....on the contrary, I think if we keep holding their hands, they'll NEVER get to learn. People who want to learn should, quite honestly, run the content themselves (either solo or in their own group, with or without the wiki) as a learning run - nothing in this game is complicated enough (outside of a couple raids, such as Abbot) that this falls behind as about the best way to learn the game.

100% agreed

I ran WizKing solo a few times at cap because I had leveled past it on my first life and didn't get to it until I was 20. It was an exceptionally confusing quest and it took me more than a few tries before I came even close to learning the map. If I could handle the enemies in the quest, but didn't know the layout of the quest well, then I'd be worse than useless even if someone had run ahead and killed every enemy in the quest for me.

I don't think there is any need for "know it" in most quests because it's pretty difficult to screw up most quests enough that you're truly lost inside the quest and can't figure out how to make progress. But in Wiz King, it's absolutely possible - and even likely if you don't bother to learn the paths yourself before joining a zerg run.

You don't need to do any quest at-level on your first life. If there is a quest that you can't do yourself, it's entirely reasonable to wait until 20 and then go back to try it out a few times until you figure out what's going on in the quest to the point that you can try it again at level on your next life or on another character.

Talon_Moonshadow

05-05-2013, 09:14 AM

I have always found this attitude sad. :(

Wiz King is a great quest, and can be quite challenging at level.

Regardless of DA, there was always those who chose to simply run through it instead of fighting anything along the way.
Man I hate that!

In this quest however, what often happened was people got left behind.... and either died and ran from everything trying desperately to find their way back to the group....

The groups I have always liked took effort to save those who fell through floors... or otherwise got lost along the way.

I will never understand those who simply find running to the end chest, past every monster in a dungeon, to be the "fun" way to play DDO.

Sad.. even more so in this quest.

This is an excellent designed quest.
One of the few with an "epic" feel to it.

An ancient Lich King in his pyramid tomb... full of traps and unliving servants entombed with him....
One of the first with semi-random traps.

The huge number of new players who fall through the floors in this one shows just how well designed it really was.

So sad that it has become just a loot run to the end chest(s)... :(

~dravael

05-05-2013, 10:34 AM

This thread was not intended to be about whether anyone should be teaching new players. It was also not intended to be read as "why would anyone want solo-capable people in their group?"

My question, which was clearly poorly worded, was supposed to be more like:
Why do so many people post an LFM for elite Wizard King that read reads, "Elite, BB, be able to solo a tower, IP"? The reason I'm curious is because it seems to me that, if you are solo capable and have already started the quest, any non-idiot who joins is going to help you, even if they can't solo a tower. If it takes you forty minutes to complete on your own, and someone else joins who can't solo a tower but can help you, and together that gets you a 35 minute completion instead of a 40 minute completion, why wouldn't you let them join?

One person pointed out that, if you are planning to farm it on hard, it makes sense to wait for other solo-capable players to join before starting your elite run.

I still haven't heard any answers as to why someone who can solo the whole thing themselves, and who has already started the quest, would refuse to let anyone else join unless they can solo a tower.

From experience, it makes almost no difference on completion time to have two people (assuming at least one of them is good enough to solo a tower) in the same tower - scaling will mitigate most benefit that would appear, and the most time-consuming part of Wizard King is the run time it takes to complete it, causing every extra tower group (up to the third group, and "group" here can mean one soloer or two people) to significantly increase the speed at which the quest can be accomplished, such that 3 groups complete the quest in less than a third of the time a single group would complete it (and the single group completes it in similar time to one group).

~dravael

05-05-2013, 10:37 AM

~Grumpycat

05-05-2013, 08:00 PM

This thread was not intended to be about whether anyone should be teaching new players. It was also not intended to be read as "why would anyone want solo-capable people in their group?"

My question, which was clearly poorly worded, was supposed to be more like:
Why do so many people post an LFM for elite Wizard King that read reads, "Elite, BB, be able to solo a tower, IP"? The reason I'm curious is because it seems to me that, if you are solo capable and have already started the quest, any non-idiot who joins is going to help you, even if they can't solo a tower. If it takes you forty minutes to complete on your own, and someone else joins who can't solo a tower but can help you, and together that gets you a 35 minute completion instead of a 40 minute completion, why wouldn't you let them join?

One person pointed out that, if you are planning to farm it on hard, it makes sense to wait for other solo-capable players to join before starting your elite run.

I still haven't heard any answers as to why someone who can solo the whole thing themselves, and who has already started the quest, would refuse to let anyone else join unless they can solo a tower.

Because if you are IP and somebody who cant solo a tower comes in and goes the wrong way to catch up to you, you either A) have to leave them dead at which point everyone thinks you're a jerk or B) go back and get them which turns a 40 min quest into a 60 min quest.

I wouldnt care about being considered a jerk. I would calmly tell them, *The LFM said be able to solo. The mistake on your part doesn't constitute and emergency on my part. Recall and try again.*

When Im grinding TR XP on a 3+ life character, Im not slowing down to put a coat over the puddle for the ladies, helping the old man cross the street or even changing the baby. I set aside my game time to play my game. You join my group, it's my rules. I neither have the time nor the inclination to change my LFM rules to suit you after you ignore them. I will admit that once it was over, if you're still dead, I'll prolly chace down your stone and rez you but will leave you to find the treasure on your own as I leave party and reform with some one who can read and follow the LFM. You wont make the squelch list if you dont get whiney about it but I will remember your toon name and be sure I dont allow you in the same type of LFM for a long time. (long time being- long enough you have become more self sufficient)

That wont apply to ALL my LFMs. IE- Shroud LFM usually is *Gimps only. Let's get it done>*

~Grumpycat

05-05-2013, 08:06 PM

This thread was not intended to be about whether anyone should be teaching new players. It was also not intended to be read as "why would anyone want solo-capable people in their group?"

My question, which was clearly poorly worded, was supposed to be more like:
Why do so many people post an LFM for elite Wizard King that read reads, "Elite, BB, be able to solo a tower, IP"? The reason I'm curious is because it seems to me that, if you are solo capable and have already started the quest, any non-idiot who joins is going to help you, even if they can't solo a tower. If it takes you forty minutes to complete on your own, and someone else joins who can't solo a tower but can help you, and together that gets you a 35 minute completion instead of a 40 minute completion, why wouldn't you let them join?

One person pointed out that, if you are planning to farm it on hard, it makes sense to wait for other solo-capable players to join before starting your elite run.

I still haven't heard any answers as to why someone who can solo the whole thing themselves, and who has already started the quest, would refuse to let anyone else join unless they can solo a tower.

Because if you are IP and somebody who cant solo a tower comes in and goes the wrong way to catch up to you, you either A) have to leave them dead at which point everyone thinks you're a jerk or B) go back and get them which turns a 40 min quest into a 60 min quest.

I wouldnt care about being considered a jerk. I would calmly tell them, *The LFM said be able to solo. The mistake on your part doesn't constitute and emergency on my part. Recall and try again.*

When Im grinding TR XP on a 3+ life character, Im not slowing down to put a coat over the puddle for the ladies, helping the old man cross the street or even changing the baby. I set aside my game time to play my game. You join my group, it's my rules. I neither have the time nor the inclination to change my LFM rules to suit you after you ignore them. I will admit that once it was over, if you're still dead, I'll prolly chace down your stone and rez you but will leave you to find the treasure on your own as I leave party and reform with some one who can read and follow the LFM. You wont make the squelch list if you dont get whiney about it but I will remember your toon name and be sure I dont allow you in the same type of LFM for a long time. (long time being- long enough you have become more self sufficient)

That wont apply to ALL my LFMs. IE- Shroud LFM usually is *Gimps only. Let's get it done>*

PermaBanned

05-05-2013, 09:14 PM

I still haven't heard any answers as to why someone who can solo the whole thing themselves, and who has already started the quest, would refuse to let anyone else join unless they can solo a tower.
The following is in chronological order, from page 1 to ^this post^ on page 3...

It will take longer...because...scaling...means mob HP increase, saves increase etc.
^Referring to having someone join you on the one tower at a time method^

Because...What they are looking for is someone who can turn a 30-40 minute trudge through one tower at a time quest into a 10 minute or less take all the towers down at the same time quest.

They just would like to find others capable of joining them to shorten their runs.

Pretty simple math really. A half-decent party who can split up and solo a tower each will get a no-death completion of the quest and all optionals in 7 mins.

If my group reads "be able to solo a tower" is cause i want to get the quest done fast

3 people soloing a tower each means that one of you will hit the boss in 1 run. This way, you dont have the possibility of having to hit all 3 towers to complete.
Be able to solo a tower means, to me anyway, Im a TR and trying to speed thru this XP. Come join me and make it faster.
So you see Mob, your question was answered many times over before you re-restated it on page 3. So is the problem really that no one has answered it? Or is it that you were looking for a specific answer you already had in mind? Or (as I suspect) is your real issue that, in your opinion, there is no "acceptable" answer because (as you have stated & implied countless times previously) you don't think people should put up these kinds of lfms, and the ones who do are elitist exclusionary expletives?

marciosilva

05-06-2013, 04:45 AM

~Grumpycat

05-06-2013, 12:24 PM

What makes me sad, is not the playability, neither he topic itself of "be able to solo blah blah blah".

I've seen so many of these topics, specially about that quest, just like that "Be able to solo a tower" and also associated with "byoh". I play on Ghallanda, so it seems this matter happens all over, not on your server.

I've seen too many of these LFMs, but most of them are posted by the SAME PLAYER. Life after life, I see him TRing again and again, each life with a different class/race combo. Its ok people do that, TRing its just that, play the same quests over again.

But on this character I've seen, this happens way too many times in a short period of time. Makes me think "how many hours per day this guy spends on his RL?". I see many TRs post LFMs again and again, but some of them are just insanely quick on TRing.

I'm sad to see that DDO has become a "grind to win" game. I have no toons with EDs (I never liked that game philosophy anyway, I loved when level limit was 20, period).

I'm so but so bored with both DDO game mechanics and forums, that I spend my time now playing Tera.

Cheers

First of all... bite me for thinking this player should conform to your style of play. Apparently, his style of LFM works or he would quit doing it. Looks like you're the odd man out.

But my main reason to reply is your last sentence. If you're spending all your time on Tera... dont come back and tell us our game sucks. You like Tera... great. I dont and I dont appreciate you coming in here to trash a player in the game or the game itself. Boo hoo. People wont play with me. Then why are you here annoying us in our forum?

Im sorry. I get so sick of people that dont play the game coming in here to trash it. It has it's issues but what game doesnt? Im also sick and tired of people thinking that everyone has to conform to their style of play. If the guy in question, and I really do think I know who your talking about, wants to spend his money on XP stones and XP boosts to get his character thru super completion(3x every life) then that's his enjoyment and his play style. If you want to do 100% completion on every quest, that's your style. You people with the *play my way* mindset need to play solitaire because that's the only place you're gonna find some one to agree with how you play all the time.

This is my hobby. It costs less than any other hobby I could be into. (Was a computer/networking junkie and cost thousands). I play my way. If I cant find people to play similarly, I dont whine that their LFMs exclude me. I dont come to the forums and whine for attention. I either solo, play one of my other 17 toons, take a break or modify my standards to comply with another player's LFM.

As my final statement, You sir, are nothing more than a troll.

~Lyle

05-06-2013, 01:46 PM

I tried this LFM not too long ago, still got people that weren't able to solo tower and died like noobs. Some just can't read lfms.

Talon_Moonshadow

05-06-2013, 02:42 PM

I have always thought that a MMO was supposed to be played with other people.

As an old school D&D player, (and an old school DDO player) I think that this game should be played by a group that more or less does the dungeon together.

I do kinda wish there were more dungeons with alternate paths.... and I do support people going off by themselves if they wish to...
But in general, a group should more or less stay together.

and no one should be required to be alone.

no one should ever be left behind. (especially dead)

zerging is fine.
(but not everytime... come on people..)

The fun is suppose to be in the actual doing of the dungeon.... not just teleporting to the end chest and getting instant XP.

any LFM that says "I ain't helping you out noob" in whatever language you choose to say it in, is unfrendly.
and whether I personally "know it" or "can solo it" etc.... I have decided that unfriendly LFMs are either not going to be fun... or I will be compromising my principles if I join them....

how I wish everyone who dis-liked this stuff would take a similar view.. and not join.
How I wish the community would come together and show no tolerance to those who....well... show no tolerance.... lol.

It used to be different in DDO.
We had a few elitist, but in general we did not tolerate them.

Now though... unfriendly LFMs are the norm... the majority of the forum posters actuallf defend unfriendly LFMs... and playstyles.

sad. :(

But even despite the unfriendly LFMs, just the fact that people want to get through a dungeon in the quickest manner possible, instead of enjoying actually playing through the dungeon, more or less as intended... weil.. that is sad too.

Wiz King is a great dungeon.
Old... but great.

Yes, I have done it a thousand times.... so yeah it has lost some of it's luster.

Zerging is different from rushing to get it over with.

Zerging is what you do to have fun slaughering monsters as fast as possible.. because you are reveling in your offensive power....

Take that! Get some! muhuhaha...
That is fun.

Just stepping in opening a chest and collecting XP, is not fun.

IMO, TRing was suppose to allow you to have fun redoing content on a favorite toon, but in a new way.
The extra XP needed to level up was intended to slow you down, so that you can enjoy all of the lower level stuff... maybe do quests you missed the first time around....

But somehow TRing instead became a rush back to cap.....

Well... personally, I am having to much fun at 20+ to ever TR again.

Oh well.. not like I can change anyone's mind....

~Lorien_

05-06-2013, 03:08 PM

.
The extra XP needed to level up was intended to slow you down, so that you can enjoy all of the lower level stuff... maybe do quests you missed the first time around....

But somehow TRing instead became a rush back to cap.....

I think it was the extra XP that made people feel that they had to grind out the max xp/min. They never should have added that punitive measure.

Enoach

05-06-2013, 03:24 PM

I think it was the extra XP that made people feel that they had to grind out the max xp/min. They never should have added that punitive measure.

You know if you can run quest on Elite once in a life and still not run them all and have enough XP to level 1 to 20. I've done this 4x's now.

The mentality is speed through running the same stuff over and over. The problem is missing out on everything else, because travel time, speed of completion in relation to XP earned and just plain dislikes of quest mechanics is what prevents many from running more of the content that already exists.

The problem with TR'ng is so many have such a long term plan of multiple lives that there is no time to enjoy the one they are in currently.

Now please don't take my comments as "You should play DDO this way...", I can just say that I've met so many Burned-Out players because of their rush through lives. Many of which expressed that they just didn't find it fun anymore and some that "Simplified" their TR'ng and found the fun again in questing.

PermaBanned

05-06-2013, 03:35 PM

I think that this game should be played by a group that...more or less stay together.

How I wish the community would come together and show no tolerance to those who....well... show no tolerance.... lol.

It used to be different... We had a few elitist, but in general we did not tolerate them.

Oh well.. not like I can change anyone's mind....

So in short, anyone who doesn't play your way is doing it wrong, and in the name of tollerance should not be tolerated?

You are familiar with the definition of hypocrisy, are you not?

Edit: Do you realize that if you were to put up a "non-exclusionary" "everyone stay together" lfm, you would be excluding anyone/everyone who likes to divide and conquer? food for thought...

mobrien316

05-06-2013, 03:40 PM

The following is in chronological order, from page 1 to ^this post^ on page 3...

^Referring to having someone join you on the one tower at a time method^

So you see Mob, your question was answered many times over before you re-restated it on page 3. So is the problem really that no one has answered it? Or is it that you were looking for a specific answer you already had in mind? Or (as I suspect) is your real issue that, in your opinion, there is no "acceptable" answer because (as you have stated & implied countless times previously) you don't think people should put up these kinds of lfms, and the ones who do are elitist exclusionary expletives?

Yeah, okay...

I already said that I understand why someone would want other solo-capable people in the quest with them.

I was looking for a reason why someone who can solo the quest and has already started is only willing to accept people who can solo a tower, when (in my opinion) any non-idiot who joins is going to make the quest easier with their help. If the idea is to get it done as quickly as possible, two competent players can complete any quest in the game faster than one, so why exclude them?

My question was never, "Why don't you allow gimps and morons to join? How would that slow you down?" I already know the answer to that.

My question was more along the lines of: "If you are a good player who can solo, and you start the quest, and another good but perhaps not solo-tower-capable player wants to join, why wouldn't you let them?" I have yet to see a logical answer to that. The scaling answer is the only one that approaches a viable reason, but in my opinion two-man scaling versus solo scaling isn't that dramatic a difference. Especially considering that, in my question, the second person isn't just a piker who will sit at the entrance, but a good player who will help you.

If my question offended you because you saw it as a person attack, allow me to apologize. I was seeking information, not seeking to hurt anyone's feelings.

~eonone

05-06-2013, 03:43 PM

I have always thought that a MMO was supposed to be played with other people.

As an old school D&D player, (and an old school DDO player) I think that this game should be played by a group that more or less does the dungeon together.

I have no problem with what you say, I generally play the way you describe, although it does depend on a day to day basis. Sometimes I just don't want to play with others, especially strangers. But mostly I do agree with your outlook.

Except for one thing.

What you are describing is not how the game "should" be played. What you are describing is how you like to play it. There is a huge difference. A MMO, nowadays, doesn't mean you are required to, not are even "supposed" to play in a group. All it means is that the tools are available so that you CAN play in a group if you wish.

It is a video game. It is up to player how to play it, within the framework of the rules. And if the framework of the rules is not to the player's liking, he can and will leave for something else. Which is why MMOs have changed over time. The "forced cooperation" aspect is not popular enough. People don't want to wait for groups, they want to do quests and entertain themselves.

As far as D&D. Of course D&D requires at least 2 people, because a DM is needed (although there were solo adventure modules too, that were a sort of "choose your own adventure" type quest, some with invisible ink, and your own "honor" to abide by the dice rolls). But a "group" of players is not required. It's not as if the game couldn't function without 2 + players and a DM. All it required was 2 players, period; a DM and a PC. And the DM tailored it to the PC or PCs, perhaps allowing NPC hirelings that both the DM and player sort of jointly controlled or scaling the dungeon to the player(s) (pretty much how our Computer DM works currently in DDO).

How certain players prefer to play does not mean that is how the game is "supposed" to be played. Especially at all times. I prefer to play the majority of the time in the way you describe. I don't bother TRing. I like trying new quests and playing with new people.

Most of the time.

Other times I don't. And if DDO didn't support other playstyles, when I didn't feel like playing in a particlar playstyle, I would simply play something else. So there wouldn't be any real gain made.

~eonone

05-06-2013, 03:54 PM

Yeah, okay...

I already said that I understand why someone would want other solo-capable people in the quest with them.

I was looking for a reason why someone who can solo the quest and has already started is only willing to accept people who can solo a tower, when (in my opinion) any non-idiot who joins is going to make the quest easier with their help. If the idea is to get it done as quickly as possible, two competent players can complete any quest in the game faster than one, so why exclude them?

My question was never, "Why don't you allow gimps and morons to join? How would that slow you down?" I already know the answer to that.

My question was more along the lines of: "If you are a good player who can solo, and you start the quest, and another good but perhaps not solo-tower-capable player wants to join, why wouldn't you let them?" I have yet to see a logical answer to that. The scaling answer is the only one that approaches a viable reason, but in my opinion two-man scaling versus solo scaling isn't that dramatic a difference. Especially considering that, in my question, the second person isn't just a piker who will sit at the entrance, but a good player who will help you.

If my question offended you because you saw it as a person attack, allow me to apologize. I was seeking information, not seeking to hurt anyone's feelings.

Because a exclusionary LFM at least attempts to relay a rule of how capable you would like someone else to be.

You are making it far more complicated than it really is.

The reality is that unless you know the person attempting to join you also don't know if they even meet the criteria. As far as why not just let anyone join that "isn't a complete idiot", that's fine, but where is this assumption coming from? Do you try to join such LFMs and send a tell saying "hey, I can't solo a tower, but I'm not a complete idiot, can I join?" OR do you assume that everyone with that LFM automatically will decline anyone that admits they can't solo a tower.

For me, if I did have such an LFM up I may or may not allow any old "non-idiot" to join, depending on many factors, not the least of which is how far along I am and how many others were already in my group.

But there are as many possible answers as there are different people who set up such LFMs in the first place. It's not like there's a hive mind of "Tower soloers" out there.

Some are just not in the mood to be socialable and want someone who can just speed the run up by a considerable amount. They would rather have the slots available for like-minded individuals, not taken up by someone who's simply a "non-idiot".

Maybe another person doesn't really care and and as long as you communicate they'll give you a chance.

Who knows. I can speak for myself, but my telepathy isn't working well enough to speak for others.

But in the end, the realquestion is; why do you care? Why are you so curious? Do you want to join a "Solo a Tower" LFM but are hesistant because you're unsure if you can or what?

AzB

05-06-2013, 04:07 PM

It's not a loot run, though...it's an XP run (as it can be the second-best XP/minute quest in the desert).

I hope there was supposed to be smiley face at the end of that. ;)

When I pug, I take what I get. A bunch of TRs zerging? Sure, why not? A bunch of noobs who struggle a bit? Okay, that can be fun sometimes. If I just want to do what I want to do, I solo.

While this specific quest is unique because of the LFM saying "be able to solo a tower", I would rather see an LFM say "vets only, please know quest well". What I really hate to see is a TR join a bunch of noobs or casual players and then zerg the quest, leaving them behind when they die trying to kill all the aggroed mobs in his wake. That's really unnecessary. And the worst part is, a lot of these newbs see that behaviour and then attempt to emulate it.

On my current life I ran into a guy that I ran Stand Your Ground with, and he was a reasonably capable player. After we were done, I asked if he wanted to continue the chain and he said "No, I'm gonna run this 5 times hard, one more time elite, and then a couple times normal. I'm farming, not playing for fun." Seriously, this is the attitude new players can pick up. There is no need to farm any quest at that level because there are many of them. I've TR'ed many times and completely skipped that chain while still never repeating any quests. It's very sad.

LFMs are a disaster these days, but in my case it puts some of the adventure back into old quests. ;)

Talon_Moonshadow

05-06-2013, 04:41 PM

So in short, anyone who doesn't play your way is doing it wrong, and in the name of tollerance should not be tolerated?

You are familiar with the definition of hypocrisy, are you not?

Edit: Do you realize that if you were to put up a "non-exclusionary" "everyone stay together" lfm, you would be excluding anyone/everyone who likes to divide and conquer? food for thought...

such a common argument.... that I should just go my own way and ignore those who have fun by not allowing others into their reindeer games.

Talon_Moonshadow

05-06-2013, 04:52 PM

I have no problem with what you say, I generally play the way you describe, although it does depend on a day to day basis. Sometimes I just don't want to play with others, especially strangers. But mostly I do agree with your outlook.

Except for one thing.

What you are describing is not how the game "should" be played. What you are describing is how you like to play it. There is a huge difference. A MMO, nowadays, doesn't mean you are required to, not are even "supposed" to play in a group. All it means is that the tools are available so that you CAN play in a group if you wish.

It is a video game. It is up to player how to play it, within the framework of the rules. And if the framework of the rules is not to the player's liking, he can and will leave for something else. Which is why MMOs have changed over time. The "forced cooperation" aspect is not popular enough. People don't want to wait for groups, they want to do quests and entertain themselves.

As far as D&D. Of course D&D requires at least 2 people, because a DM is needed (although there were solo adventure modules too, that were a sort of "choose your own adventure" type quest, some with invisible ink, and your own "honor" to abide by the dice rolls). But a "group" of players is not required. It's not as if the game couldn't function without 2 + players and a DM. All it required was 2 players, period; a DM and a PC. And the DM tailored it to the PC or PCs, perhaps allowing NPC hirelings that both the DM and player sort of jointly controlled or scaling the dungeon to the player(s) (pretty much how our Computer DM works currently in DDO).

How certain players prefer to play does not mean that is how the game is "supposed" to be played. Especially at all times. I prefer to play the majority of the time in the way you describe. I don't bother TRing. I like trying new quests and playing with new people.

Most of the time.

Other times I don't. And if DDO didn't support other playstyles, when I didn't feel like playing in a particlar playstyle, I would simply play something else. So there wouldn't be any real gain made.

I understand that.

It's not solo play that I am against.
It is not even xp/minute... per say.

I am against excluding or unfriendly/welcoming LFMs.
and worse.... leaving people behind/dead.

IMO, if you can solo a tower... go solo it... solo the whole whole quest.
Not like he isn't in the same tower 75% of the time....

Anyway, I actually like a mix of playstyles.

I put up few LFMs... sometimes I solo. Sometiems I log on another server to avoid socializing... just run quests quietly.

But I will always help people as best I can.

and I don't grind... that is just boring..

PermaBanned

05-06-2013, 05:58 PM

I already said that I understand why someone would want other solo-capable people in the quest with them.

I was looking for a reason why someone who can solo the quest and has already started is only willing to accept people who can solo a tower, when (in my opinion) any non-idiot who joins is going to make the quest easier with their help. If the idea is to get it done as quickly as possible, two competent players can complete any quest in the game faster than one, so why exclude them?
The answer you seek is short, simple, obvious and embedded in the question it's self: They are are not seeking, are not wanting someone to do a tower with them. They are only wanting someone who will solo a different tower than the one they are in. If you need further explanation of why they would only want another soloist, and can't get the specific information you seek from the plethora of information provided to that end in this thread, next time you see this lfm, send a tell asking that individual "why?"

If my question offended you because you saw it as a person attack, allow me to apologize. I was seeking information, not seeking to hurt anyone's feelings.
I'm not offended, so no appologys needed, however I do appreciate that it was offered had offense been taken :)
If anything, I'm confused to the point of annoyance of A) why it seems to matter to you so darn much what other people are doing to enjoy their time in the game, and B) how it is that I can see your question answered over and over again only to see you re-asking it because "no one has answered it."

PermaBanned

05-06-2013, 06:21 PM

such a common argument.... that I should just go my own way and ignore those who have fun by not allowing others into their reindeer games.

There's a reason that argument is so common. If I may be so bold -and perhaps even a bit hypocritical- as to offer my opinion of how everyone should play, here it is:

Everyone should play in whatever fashion/style/method/whatever they *enjoy. No one should be restricted by what or how other people think is proper, appropriate or "the way it should be."
If people want to solo, they should.
If people want to group with new people, "show 'em the ropes" and help them learn the game, they should.
If people want to play exclusively with other people who are of comparable experience and ability, they should.

If people want to put up lfms stating anything to the effect of "this is how I play, if you play this way too come join me" they should be able to do so without receiving criticism for trying to enjoy a game with people who enjoy it the same way they do.

*The only way I will dare say people should not play is if their intention is to grief, annoy, or in any way impede on someone else's fun.

If any of the above is unacceptable to someone, then I dare say they are the ones doing it wrong.

~eonone

05-06-2013, 08:29 PM

Qhualor1

05-06-2013, 10:53 PM

And since people have different ideas of what is fun, even of what is fun at that particular time, that is exactly why exclusionary or "unfriendly" LFMs are indeed valuable.

They contain within them the shorthand notes necessary to basically let you know what type of playstyle they are engaging in, therefore giving people some information to let them decide if they want to join such a group.

If the leader's playstyle doesn't sound like fun, then it's a good idea to know that ahead of time, before joining the group.

exclusionary lfms are too generalized. theres not enough room to put exactly what type of play style the PL really wants. I usually avoid BYOH lfms because most groups I have joined were little to no teamwork, zerg and I only take care of me, myself and I. there are some who have disputed that and say most BYOH groups they join are the complete opposite.

in the case of the topic of this thread, I usually avoid "solo a tower" lfms because most of the groups I have joined zerged for the xp/min and caused DA. I can solo a tower just fine, even as a no umd melee, but when its a rat race to the top to get the most xp/min and I have to deal with harried and the PL huffing and puffing wondering what is taking so long than im all set with that. if the lfm was something like "solo a tower, no zerg" than I would have no problems with it and happily join.

~eonone

05-06-2013, 11:10 PM

exclusionary lfms are too generalized. theres not enough room to put exactly what type of play style the PL really wants. I usually avoid BYOH lfms because most groups I have joined were little to no teamwork, zerg and I only take care of me, myself and I. there are some who have disputed that and say most BYOH groups they join are the complete opposite.

in the case of the topic of this thread, I usually avoid "solo a tower" lfms because most of the groups I have joined zerged for the xp/min and caused DA. I can solo a tower just fine, even as a no umd melee, but when its a rat race to the top to get the most xp/min and I have to deal with harried and the PL huffing and puffing wondering what is taking so long than im all set with that. if the lfm was something like "solo a tower, no zerg" than I would have no problems with it and happily join.

There you go. You've joined those groups. You haven't enjoyed it. And now you know not to join it. Therefore the LFM works just fine.

~D4rth

05-07-2013, 03:41 AM

I understand that.

It's not solo play that I am against.
It is not even xp/minute... per say.

I am against excluding or unfriendly/welcoming LFMs.
and worse.... leaving people behind/dead.

IMO, if you can solo a tower... go solo it... solo the whole whole quest.
Not like he isn't in the same tower 75% of the time....

I'm usually on a TR train with a friend or two and we run everything at zerg speed. If I put an "all welcome" LFM up it ends up with either people that don't like to zerg not having fun or the three of us not having fun.

If we're farming Wizking after elite we're gonna split up and each of us is gonna take on a tower. Someone is eventually gonna die and the others are gonna get to his tower after they're finished with their tower. Someone might even pike a run or two, afk RL, bio, etc.

If I get someone that doesn't know the quest and is new next is gonna happen:
He will get lost.
He will die in a trap.
He will fall trough the floor and die.
He will die in the traps.
He will fight every single mob left behind and then whine about being left behind.
He will get cursed by the golem and beaten to death cause he forgot a curse removal pot.
He will get diseased and cursed by mummies, whine that the "healer" isn't healing him.
He will find more ways to die since this quest offers many ways to die in it.

After he dies he will:
Ragequit.
Be mad at others for not coming to rez him immediately than ragequit.
Be mad at "healer" not healing him than ragequit.
Be mad about traps not being disabled.
Be dissapointed that nobody guieded him through the quest.

Now mind you, I don't mind people dying in a quest. I do however mind them being obnoxious to others after they die.

So are you saying that I should put "All welcome" and make others that don't have the same playstyle run at zerg speed or am I better off with "Be able to solo a tower" and get experienced folk that are gonna be relaxed and chat while we do the quest for the upteenth time?

marciosilva

05-07-2013, 05:31 AM

First of all... bite me for thinking this player should conform to your style of play. Apparently, his style of LFM works or he would quit doing it. Looks like you're the odd man out.

Well, for me, each one on his own LFM. I never apply to an LFM that I don't like. And I don't send tells to their party leaders. I just carry on.

But my main reason to reply is your last sentence. If you're spending all your time on Tera... dont come back and tell us our game sucks. You like Tera... great. I dont and I dont appreciate you coming in here to trash a player in the game or the game itself. Boo hoo. People wont play with me. Then why are you here annoying us in our forum?

I have played DDO a lot. I have paid my DDO Store items. I have invested more than 100 Eur in this game. May not be much (as most of you are VIP in game classification as well as "look at me I'm better than you" VIP style of snobish people). I have the right to come here, post in OUR forums, I'm not superior neither inferior to your own fleshy human being (please refer to my last sentence in this topic as well).

Im sorry. I get so sick of people that dont play the game coming in here to trash it. It has it's issues but what game doesnt? Im also sick and tired of people thinking that everyone has to conform to their style of play. If the guy in question, and I really do think I know who your talking about, wants to spend his money on XP stones and XP boosts to get his character thru super completion(3x every life) then that's his enjoyment and his play style. If you want to do 100% completion on every quest, that's your style. You people with the *play my way* mindset need to play solitaire because that's the only place you're gonna find some one to agree with how you play all the time.

Oh but I DO play the game. More often than you may think. And I'm sick and tired of long reported bugs not being solved. Tired and sick to see game updates changing good things the game had. Sick and tired with supposed improvements, and watch our toons being gimped because we can't do a simple thing like a feat exchange. Lastly, I'm so tired and sick of reading your type of hostile posting. If a guy wants to trade his own RL for life in the game, let him do it. I was only wandering how some people are to the point of spending so much time in the game. I have not offended a single person here with my comments.

This is my hobby. It costs less than any other hobby I could be into. (Was a computer/networking junkie and cost thousands). I play my way. If I cant find people to play similarly, I dont whine that their LFMs exclude me. I dont come to the forums and whine for attention. I either solo, play one of my other 17 toons, take a break or modify my standards to comply with another player's LFM.

This is also my hobby. I also play my way. We agree on this, don't have a reason to comment here. I've done zerg runs for favor and/or xp, I've done slow paced runs to get in the mood of role play, I've done my solo quests here and then, even if not too often.

As my final statement, You sir, are nothing more than a troll.

And as my final statement, if you cared to read this far, I would ask you: look at yourself. Are you better than me? I didn't come here to offend whoever it would be. But you, I'm afraid you can't say the same. As you said yourself, your main reason to reply was my last sentence. You wrote an entire topic only to troll me. I truly appreciate your dedication on me.

_______________________________

Bottom line: I still like DDO, I'm not whining about LFMs that I don't care to join because they are not my style of play, I'm not whining the tradicional "oh I'm leaving because I don't like DDO anymore". I still play to see if Turbine improves somethings. Meanwhile, I will just spend my time trying other gaming environment.

My comment was just that: a comment. Read all the unhappy users postings all over General section and you see how I feel about DDO right now. Ok I mentioned the name of another MMO. Who hasn't? You make seem its a crime or something worse...

Anyway, I only wish you one thing:

Best regards, and don't get too much aggro on forums. Its bad for your health :)

jalont

05-07-2013, 08:30 AM

The OP has a point. Just yesterday, a person had a solo a tower elite up. I instead put my own LFM up, it filled within minutes, and we completed the quest while the other person's LFM was still up, and he ended up in the quest for over an hour before he completed or quit trying. In this instance, that person should have just dropped the solo a tower restriction. It would have been much better for him. Some people are just weird like that.

The game has changed over the last two months or so. I'm noting that my own "exclusionary" LFMs, as well as others do not fill. Not even a hit. I'm on a divine life, so I've changed the way I do things, and ALL my LFMs fill within five minutes. This leads to a lot of people coming to the forums and complaining about LFMs not filling. I have a feeling these are people posting "exclusionary" LFMs. And they're right, they aren't filling. But non-exclusionary LFMs are filling quite quickly. I have no idea what caused this shift in the playerbase, but I think it will cause people to adapt their playstyle or eventually leave.

I like playing with people, and I have no problem with people dieing in my groups and what not. I view that as the price I pay for having a group to run with. The reason I used to put up exclusionary LFMs is because I don't know what to do if someone comes in the group that needs to be healed. So I would put BYOH and such. When i'm done with my six divine lives, we'll see what I do then. I'm not quite sure, because I'll be back to the same problem.

PermaBanned

05-07-2013, 02:42 PM

Since we're still going on about exclusionary lfms, let's be clear & honest about something: ALL lfms are exclusionary. ALL of them.
Lvl1-25 favor farming - excludes everyone looking to get xp.
Sentinels chain lvl 7-9 for xp - excludes everyone below or above that level range.
A five man party "need healer" excludes all non-healers.
A five man party "need cc" excludes all non-casters, and some week cc nuke-casters.
"No Zerg/all opts" excludes xp/min players.
"byoh" excludes those who can't.
"be flagged" by necessity excludes those who aren't.
"solo a tower" excludes those who can't.
"farming (x) chest" excludes those who would prefer a quest completion.
"No soloists" excludes those who would prefer to devide and conquer.
The list goes on & on...

So take a moment and be honest, is it really that "exclusionary" lfms are a problem?
Or
Is it just lfms that exclude you (whomever you may be) that are a problem for you?

bsquishwizzy

05-07-2013, 04:04 PM

I have played DDO a lot. I have paid my DDO Store items. I have invested more than 100 Eur in this game. May not be much (as most of you are VIP in game classification as well as "look at me I'm better than you" VIP style of snobish people). I have the right to come here, post in OUR forums, I'm not superior neither inferior to your own fleshy human being (please refer to my last sentence in this topic as well).

VIP member here.

Yeah, being calld a "snob" because I rent the game as opposed to purchasing packs is a real winner for me. I want more of that!

Do us all a favor: stay gone. Thanks.

And yeah I'm better that you. Inso many, many ways possible...

bsquishwizzy

05-07-2013, 04:05 PM

I put up an LFM once that said "no soloists." Does that make me exclusionary?

marciosilva

05-07-2013, 04:30 PM

(...)
Yeah, being calld a "snob" because I rent the game as opposed to purchasing packs is a real winner for me. I want more of that!

I didn't call snob to every people that got VIP package. I think its a good thing to do so, I know of all the goodies and would get a VIP for myself if I had a job.

Do us all a favor: stay gone. Thanks.

I can stay gone very easily. Enough for the effort to read and write in a language that is not my own, because of problems that are not my own, with people that (mostly) spend their lifes arguing and trolling all over the place. Not the place for me, you are right about that. I have a real life here, and too many real life goodies to get me worried with someone like you. Its not worth the trouble to stay much longer.

And yeah I'm better that you. Inso many, many ways possible...

Ok I'm going to laugh on this one. Let other people decide on that, ok?

(I think you forgot a space bar between "In" and "so", plus the "better that you", should read "better than you", don't you think you shouldn't get grammar lessons from a portuguese user, Mr. I'm Better Than You?)

Cheers and thanks to you too, for dedicating an entire post to myself :D

PermaBanned

05-07-2013, 06:04 PM

I put up an LFM once that said "no soloists." Does that make me exclusionary?

Yes, it excludes anyone who prefers the "divide and conquer" method. I'll add it to the list ;)

~Grumpycat

05-07-2013, 06:41 PM

I have invested more than 100 Eur in this game.

And I have spent $1000 US. Your point?

You want to complain about Turbine's mistakes? I get it. I do too. You want to complain about the direction the game is taking? I do too. You want to say that the answers to the previous questions are why you're playing another game? I got no issues. But when you trash a player for putting up an LFM outlining his own rules? I got a problem with that.

As another post stated, verifying what I said, If people dont want to follow those rules, they wont join the LFM. And the guy either ended up soloing or not doing the quest. Again, verifying what I said. While my LFMs generally have *need shadow kite/healer/tank/7 sith lords or my personal favorite, Gimps only, I dont expect people to more than to follow my direction. and as they join, I give those directions so if they dont think they can follow it, they have time to vacate a spot for some one who can.

But I dont sit in the forum and try to berate some one for playing their way. If I dont like it, I start my own or join something else.

I understand the frustration of wanting to run a toon and not being able to find a group at level. It's the reason I have so many toons. It gives me options instead of being restrained to soloing if I dont like the LFMs that are up. There's also crafting, AH manipulation (buy low/sell high, boost bids I feel are too low, etc) inventory clean up. Plenty to do. I also understand the frustration of change. I took a 3 month break after MotU came out because the new gear ruined everything I was aiming for and now had to start over and recalculate and change my quest focuses.

But again... dont come in, tell us you dont play any more, trash the game and a player. It doesnt fly any farther than trollville.

Edits were for spelling errs

marciosilva

05-08-2013, 03:29 AM

...

Edits were for spelling errs

LOL, now you made my day, just had a good laugh on this...

Thanks :D

~HunterScout

05-08-2013, 04:38 PM

VIP member here.

Yeah, being calld a "snob" because I rent the game as opposed to purchasing packs is a real winner for me. I want more of that!

Do us all a favor: stay gone. Thanks.

And yeah I'm better that you. Inso many, many ways possible...

http://www.troll.me/images/futurama-fry/not-sure-if-trolling-or-oblivious-to-irony.jpg

bsquishwizzy

05-08-2013, 04:52 PM

Ok I'm going to laugh on this one. Let other people decide on that, ok?

(I think you forgot a space bar between "In" and "so", plus the "better that you", should read "better than you", don't you think you shouldn't get grammar lessons from a portuguese user, Mr. I'm Better Than You?)

Cheers and thanks to you too, for dedicating an entire post to myself :D

First, the color combo on my edit box is black on dark gray, so it is not the optimal solution for proofreading my posts.

Second, the edit button does nothing. So if there is a misspelling or misplaced, redundant comma here or there I can't change it.

Third, I'm a published author with both a book and magazine articles in professional magazines to my credit. I know all about editing, grammar, and whatnot; probably moreso than you ever will. I don't bother to do that with forum posts. Sorry if you can't handle that concept.

Fourth, your grasp of the English language is kinda feeble. I counted a minimum of six errors in the post I quoted. So if we want to play the "human spellchecker," I'm up for the challenge...junior.

Fifth...yeah, I'm still better than you...VIP snobbery and all that.

~Grumpycat

05-08-2013, 07:52 PM

Making LFM's that intimidate them away simply doesn't help the issue. Whether or not we "like" it or even agree with it, the facts stand for themselves.

While I agree with this and have stated that if the community doesnt join the LFM, the guy will get the idea that a) no one that can is on, B) no one likes this type of LFM or C) solo it and keep the LFM in the hopes that some one joins him eventually. Ok, maybe D) remain blissfully ignorant and continue putting up this sort of LFM. This isnt the point of the discussion at hand.

But that wasn't the tone of the OP. The tone of the OP was denigrating to that type of LFM. And that's just wrong. While there are those who have unlimited time to play the game, there are others who have strict limitations whether they are self appointed or otherwise. And if the person who has limited time doesnt want to dink around with newb or noobs, then that's his right as a paying customer. (or even as a free player).

It bothers me to see anyone make fun of, deride or downright slap around anyone for their play style. It's his choice to play that way. Just as it is your choice to accept and join the LFM or dont join it. And you have the choice of creating your own LFM.

Now, if yo uwish to discuss the good or evil for the game overall, reread this post and remove the parts about negative comments toward the poster of the LFM. It's the same result. Join or dont. But dont get on some one who may not have the time or inclination to deal with noobs or newbs.

And so there is no misunderstanding my meaning,
Newb- new guy who needs to be led by the hand
Noob - Vet who acts like a newb

PermaBanned

05-08-2013, 07:55 PM

Making LFM's that intimidate them away simply doesn't help the issue. Whether or not we "like" it or even agree with it, the facts stand for themselves.
<snip>
I think at it's heart this thread is about this issue and the LFM panel is our advertisement, our bill board if you will, to new players to get them invested in the game and community. Unfortunately the trend in game (and on the boards) of late has been anything but flattering.
I got to wondering about how lfms and their terminology effected new players too, so I made a thread and asked them about it. The results -while an obviously small (even tiny) sample size vs player population- have been nothing short of interesting. (to me anyway)
Here's the synopsis:

It seems that "exclusionary" lfms don't discourage new players from staying in the game. It does seem to encourage some to solo, although most have stated a preferance for soloing new-to-them content anyway. So the notion that these lfms drive new people away doesn't seem to hold water as far as being a "fact" is concerned. I will note however, that many have said they would like to see more "first timers welcome" lfms, but again the lack of them doesn't seem to be driving people away from the game.

A few so far have expressed their opinions on "exclusionary" lfms. It seems these are indeed apreciated as way of informing people that this is a group they may not enjoy, either because of the play style or player attitudes advertised/suggested by the lfm notes. Nobody (in that thread) has suggested that these lfms are bad, or should not be there.

Also of interesting note, at least one respondent noted that these threads where we squabble over what we "vets" think is best for -and what should or should not be done on behalf of- the new players was it's self a turn off to grouping, suggesting that in either case he(she?) would be stuck grouping with people who thought they new what was best for them.

As I said at the start though, the sample size is comparatively quite small. The thread is obviously titled. Check it out if you like, draw your own conclusions. Ask your own questions. Just please, PLEASE keep it cordial.

~Raithe-8164

05-08-2013, 08:52 PM

Also of interesting note, at least one respondent noted that these threads where we squabble over what we "vets" think is best for -and what should or should not be done on behalf of- the new players was it's self a turn off to grouping, suggesting that in either case he(she?) would be stuck grouping with people who thought they new what was best for them.

Really... new players are (in general) turned off by people discussing game practices, but not by people telling them HOW they should run a certain quest for maximal "efficiency."

As you yourself pointed out, all LFMs are exclusionary in certain ways. If I put up an LFM for VoN 3, it excludes all the people that don't want to run VoN 3. Yet by putting up an LFM for VoN 3, I am usually performing a SERVICE for the community. So what's the difference between doing THAT, and telling people to be able to solo a tower?

Your quote made me laugh because you tried to twist everything to be almost mirror-like in its truthfulness. What makes the "Be Able to Solo a Tower" exclusionary in a BAD way is that you are attempting to control the MANNER in which some particular task is executed. Likewise, a "Roleplay" LFM announces the option of joining a group that will likely enjoy other people's creativity, while a "Roleplay - pirate-talk only, have mic, and don't interrupt my soliloquy" LFM simply announces that the LFM creator is a jerk.

I personally think that dividing up to conquer the towers of the Chamber of Raiyum is the INTENDED method of running the quest, the one that poses the best challenge (and therefore, on average, provides the most fun), and as a completely unremarkable side-effect the most efficient way to run the quest. I am currently uncertain, but it may also make the final battle with epic Raiyum significantly easier if the wraiths have been encountered and destroyed in one of the other towers. None of these observations make it necessary or useful to make dividing to conquer towers a prerequisite of joining the LFM. For all I know or care, you are going to hang out in the entry hall while the rest of us complete the quest with your dungeon scaling being applied.

You are erroneously trying to make this thread (solely) about being exclusionary. No, it's mostly about being an exclusionary pain in the derriere.

PermaBanned

05-09-2013, 12:04 AM

Really...
<snip>
You are erroneously trying to make this thread (solely) about being exclusionary. No, it's mostly about being an exclusionary pain in the derriere.

In the very portion of the post you quoted, I said "at least one." I phrased it that way because I didn't take the time to go back and re-read the thread I referenced and didn't want to discount anyone who may have echoed the sentiment. You sir(or ma'am) made the leap from "at least one" to "(generally speaking)."

There were multiple responses to the effect that lfms as described in this "solo a tower" thread are not a turn off to grouping in general, just a turn off to joining that group. Which is I believe the very purpose of the "solo a tower" lfm: to deter those who can't or don't want to solo a tower from joining.

If you read this thread in it's entirety, you'll see that I am not the one diverting it to being about "exclusionary" lfms in general, I'm just responding to those who are. I suppose that's my bad, but the cat was already out of the bag.

As for the "solo a tower" lfm being exclusionary "in a bad way" I must disagree with you. The person who posted it obviously only wanted people to join if they could and would solo a tower. Weather or not it's controlling is a matter of personal perspective. I would say that it wasn't, as there was no further stipulations like "must melee" or "must use firewall" or any other such; however you would seem to disagree. Nothing wrong with that. It's the beauty of any lfm notes, including "solo a tower." They spell out clearly the posters expectations of those who hit the join button. If you don't like it, disagree with the terms or find it too controlling, you're free to not join. People posting these don't restrict your options, they increase them*. Anyone else wanting to run that quest with out soloing a tower can put up a "stick together" lfm for the same quest. Then anyone else who sees both lfms can choose which suits their play style and interest at the given time.

* I recall somewhere in this thread (or maybe it was a different "solo a tower" lfm thread, there have been several) someone lamenting about there only ever being "solo a tower" lfms for wiz-king. If this is indeed anyone's experience, then their options are the following: A) post their own lfm with notes intended to attract the "stick together" types; or B) since they only see these types of lfms for the quest then accept this is the standard method, go in on norm or even casual and learn how to to do it. From there work your way up the difficulty range until you feel comfortable and able to solo a tower. There may even be additional options I'm not thinking of ATM.