Lamannia Update: EARLY Enhancements Preview - Week 2

[SqueakofDoom]

Lamannia will be coming down for an update on April 18 between 10am and 2pm EST (GMT -5).

First, I would like to thank everyone for your participation and feedback so far! I know we have run into some hitches (*frowns at the Pando installer*), but it is great to hear from so many players!

Tomorrow's Lamannia build features one major adjustment to the Enhancement Trees: We are lowering the number of Action Points spent in the Trees required to access the Top Tier Enhancements. (Class Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, 20, and 30 Action Points spent and Racial Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, and 15 Action Points spent.) Note that while this change would allow you to take Tier 5 abilities from two Class Trees, that is not intended. We will eventually add the "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from a single Tree" restriction.

Please keep in mind that we are trying to make one major adjustment at a time since this is the best way to determine what adjustments are most effective.

We have decided to leave the Artificer, Cleric, Fighter, and Ranger Enhancement Trees on Lamannia for continued preview. Additionally, all Enhancement trees will be available for the third and final week of the Alpha Preview for Enhancements.

Please note that adjustments and fixes to the individual Enhancements or Enhancement Trees currently available on Lamannia will not be present in tomorrow's Lamannia build. This is primarily because any recently implemented adjustments and fixes would not give Quality Assurance proper time to verify that it works and does not break something else.

The adjusted Preview Schedule is as follows:

Week 2 (April 18 – 24):

Druid
Favored Soul
Rogue
Sorcerer
Wizard
Artificer
Cleric
Fighter
Ranger

Week 3 (April 25 – May 1):

Barbarian
Bard
Monk
Paladin
ALL other Enhancement Trees


Please note that to retain more focused feedback from the Surveys, only the Druid, Favored Soul, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard Surveys will be available from Thursday to Monday morning (VERY early Monday morning).

Keep in mind that this is an EARLY PREVIEW! There will be bugs!

[chanw4]

When will we see the racial PrE for each races?

[Qezuzu]

i know we have run into some hitches (*frowns at the pando installer*)

Torrent.

[Azara]

2 things:

1 - AMAZING job thus far with the new Enhancements! I have made so many different builds just to test out which ones I liked best that my hands are numb...NUMB I TELL YOU!

2 - With the new tier respect, does that mean tomorrow morning some of us will be seeing AP refunds for the differential in the former cost to the new cost? Or will it just be a "rest your enhancements and spend at the new cost" type deal?

Again, AMAZING job guys! I'm avoiding going back to the main servers until this goes live because I'm loving the customization it gives me to my toon (above and beyond Feat and Spell selection)! :)

[SqueakofDoom]

You will have to reset your Enhancements and then re-spend the points.

[maddmatt70]

I am not sure that I agree with the tier 5 core abilities can only be taken in one tree. I am of the opinion that a pure level 20 ranger should be able to get the core abilities from deepwood sniper and arcane archer. Why not reward pure builds a little it seems like multi-class's get the overall advantage so why not reward pure builds. The same with level 20 fighter that is kensai and stalwart or level 20 cleric that is healing and protection or pure level 20 artificer and those two core abilities.

[Ape_Man]

Tomorrow's Lamannia build features one major adjustment to the Enhancement Trees: We are lowering the number of Action Points spent in the Trees required to access the Top Tier Enhancements. (Class Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, 20, and 30 Action Points spent and Racial Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, and 15 Action Points spent.) Note that while this change would allow you to take Tier 5 abilities from two Class Trees, that is not intended. We will eventually add the "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from a single Tree" restriction.

This is a step in the right direction. it's not a enough but it's progress. I understand the need to move slowly.

[Mikula]

Have the lvl requirements gone up for these tiers? In this iteration if a character only focuses a single tree he should hit top tier at lvl 8.

[BruceTheHoon]

Will we also have access to the previous class surveys?
I was more than annoyed today when I found out, that I am no longer able to fill out the class queries - the very ones that allows us to enter the most detailed and visible feedback.

[Krelar]

Will we also have access to the previous class surveys?
I was more than annoyed today when I found out, that I am no longer able to fill out the class queries - the very ones that allows us to enter the most detailed and visible feedback.

Nope.



Please note that to retain more focused feedback from the Surveys, only the Druid, Favored Soul, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard Surveys will be available from Thursday to Monday morning (VERY early Monday morning).

[rosedarkthorn]

I have a cleric trapper AA who depends relatively highly on Positive Energy Aura.

On the old enhancements, I have both Slaying Arrows and Positive Energy Aura. If I can have that now, why should I have to give one up in the new enhancement trees?

In the first place, I don't think Positive Energy Aura should be in Tier 5, I think it should be with Positive Energy Burst like it is currently, but if it is going to stay there, there should be no reason why I shouldn't be able to have both, like I can now. It's not game breaking at all and it only downgrades my current build to force me to give it up.

[SirValentine]

We are lowering the number of Action Points spent in the Trees required to access the Top Tier Enhancements. (Class Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, 20, and 30 Action Points spent and Racial Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, and 15 Action Points spent.)


I applaud the general direction of this, would request that you make the requirements consistent. Specifically:

- For Tier 4, lower it to 15, period, not just lowering to 15 in some cases and leaving at 20 in others. 20 was too high anyway.

- For the confusingly-placed-definitely-not-auto-grants, make their AP spent requirements match their tier, too, with the same progression. (You could just place them in the tree to avoid confusion, too, but that's a separate issue.)

I.e., I suggest 0/5/10/15/30 consistent for all tiered abilities, regardless of which kind of tree or odd "special" placement under trees.



Note that while this change would allow you to take Tier 5 abilities from two Class Trees, that is not intended. We will eventually add the "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from a single Tree" restriction.


That change will be yet more reason to lower the "spent" requirement on the capstone from 40 and treat it as just another Tier 5 ability. 20 levels in class is plenty restrictive already; you should not be denied your class capstone because you didn't want to hyperspecialize in a single tree.

[psteen1]

Tomorrow's Lamannia build features one major adjustment to the Enhancement Trees: We are lowering the number of Action Points spent in the Trees required to access the Top Tier Enhancements. (Class Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, 20, and 30 Action Points spent and Racial Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, and 15 Action Points spent.)


Very happy about this change. After taking core abilities and 2-3 tier 5 enhancements, this means that we can probably reduce the AP spent in a single tree to 40. Gives a lot more flexibility in splashing another tree or investing in racials.

[TPICKRELL]

...
Tomorrow's Lamannia build features one major adjustment to the Enhancement Trees: We are lowering the number of Action Points spent in the Trees required to access the Top Tier Enhancements. (Class Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, 20, and 30 Action Points spent and Racial Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, and 15 Action Points spent.)This is a step in the right direction, but I think that the system needs to be built around multiples of 4 (not 5). It would then match the ED system, and line up to the fact that you get 4 action points per level not 5.

All of my toon's are multiclass or in weeks 2-3 so I'm playing on paper not with the real designer. But level breaks of: 0/4/8/16/ and either 28 or 32 were a lot more flexible in both trees than the current multiples of 5 stepping. 5 Action point increments is out of step with the leveling process.

I also think that points already spent on Core Abilities should count in the total points spent in tree number. Ftrom my simplistic viewpoint, they are points spent on that tree's abilities at the exclusion of other trees and should be counted as such.

[Flavilandile]

We are lowering the number of Action Points spent in the Trees required to access the Top Tier Enhancements.

Thanks, that's a move in the right direction, but that just a move... In itself it's not enough, it just shows that we are listened.

as a Side note can you change the Reincarnation Timer ? It's set to a week right now, and it's annoying when you experiment the enhancement against build choices.

[Aashrym]

Costs to tier unlocks are good, I'm not sure we really need to restrict access to tier 5 enhancements to 1 tree, however. That still comes with a hefty 60+ AP requirement for 2 trees plus points spent in the trees.

[rest]

Thanks, that's a move in the right direction, but that just a move... In itself it's not enough, it just shows that we are listened.

as a Side note can you change the Reincarnation Timer ? It's set to a week right now, and it's annoying when you experiment the enhancement against build choices.

Doing a LR resets the TR timer, and doing a TR resets the LR timer.

You're welcome.

[12201]

So why is it not intended to be allowed 2 Tier 5 trees? what is so wrong with it, Thats a major restriction in my opinion and here i thought this was to allow more freedom not take more freedom with others. As it currently is that means someone wouldnt be able to splash void strike 4 and shintao which alot of monk people will be peeved off about and then theres other classes that have 2 different things from tier 5 currently in our regular system so pretty much freedom taken away especially for my 20 monk

[Flavilandile]

Doing a LR resets the TR timer, and doing a TR resets the LR timer.

You're welcome.

Many thanks.
With the Dojo active LR or TR or GR it's the same think in term of time spent.
Now the annoying bit is that I'll leave my First life and get more points to waste in Stats. oh well.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

I applaud the general direction of this, would request that you make the requirements consistent. Specifically:

- For Tier 4, lower it to 15, period, not just lowering to 15 in some cases and leaving at 20 in others. 20 was too high anyway.

- For the confusingly-placed-definitely-not-auto-grants, make their AP spent requirements match their tier, too, with the same progression. (You could just place them in the tree to avoid confusion, too, but that's a separate issue.)

I.e., I suggest 0/5/10/15/30 consistent for all tiered abilities, regardless of which kind of tree or odd "special" placement under trees.



That change will be yet more reason to lower the "spent" requirement on the capstone from 40 and treat it as just another Tier 5 ability. 20 levels in class is plenty restrictive already; you should not be denied your class capstone because you didn't want to hyperspecialize in a single tree.

^^This^^


This is a step in the right direction, but I think that the system needs to be built around multiples of 4 (not 5). It would then match the ED system, and line up to the fact that you get 4 action points per level not 5.

All of my toon's are multiclass or in weeks 2-3 so I'm playing on paper not with the real designer. But level breaks of: 0/4/8/16/ and either 28 or 32 were a lot more flexible in both trees than the current multiples of 5 stepping. 5 Action point increments is out of step with the leveling process.

I also think that points already spent on Core Abilities should count in the total points spent in tree number. Ftrom my simplistic viewpoint, they are points spent on that tree's abilities at the exclusion of other trees and should be counted as such.

And ^^this^^

[Vargouille]

Have the lvl requirements gone up for these tiers? In this iteration if a character only focuses a single tree he should hit top tier at lvl 8.

We have put in a Character Level 12 requirement for Class Tier 5 abilities. (This is CHARACTER level. Not class level.)

Other tiers remain unchanged (besides racial Tier 4 abilities, as previously noted).

[Jay203]

We have put in a Character Level 12 requirement for Class Tier 5 abilities.

Other tiers remain unchanged (besides racial Tier 4 abilities, as previously noted).

/dislike
remove that nao~

EDIT: arlite, since you changed it to character lvl, not class lvl, my dislike stance is changed back to concerned

[HalfORCastrator]

Doing a LR resets the TR timer, and doing a TR resets the LR timer.

You're welcome.
OMG, is this a Lammania only thing, or is this live?!

[toaf]

im sure the changes will be abit OP BUTT <---big but) your tree lack something and its is the best choice. i just hope you guys can fix this mess

[12201]

We have put in a Character Level 12 requirement for Class Tier 5 abilities.

Other tiers remain unchanged (besides racial Tier 4 abilities, as previously noted).

So even more restriction to multi classers ? Are you guys trying to purposely P*** people off? because thats what its starting to seem like, I liked it better when i was told MORE freedom not MORE restriction come on now

[Jay203]

to clarify
most of the class tree enhancement SUCK if you have no access to tier 5
this is going to kill off a lot of multiclass build options right off the bat

[Krelar]

So even more restriction to multi classers ? Are you guys trying to purposely P*** people off? because thats what its starting to seem like, I liked it better when i was told MORE freedom not MORE restriction come on now

Maybe he mistyped, but he said character level 12 not class level. I don't see how that will affect multiclass toons at all.

[12201]

Maybe he mistyped, but he said character level 12 not class level. I don't see how that will affect multiclass toons at all.

ahh i thought i read class level 12 lol well as long as its by character level then i understand dont want low levels getting slayer arrows and running through content like leroy jenkins on crack but actually succeeding in something lol

[rest]

OMG, is this a Lammania only thing, or is this live?!

;)

[Zeusknight]

I do like the direction this is going. I agree at this point access to 2 tier abilities would be ok with having to have points spent in individual trees. If it was total points spent total to take abilities A restriction would definitely be needed.

[maddmatt70]

ahh i thought i read class level 12 lol well as long as its by character level then i understand dont want low levels getting slayer arrows and running through content like leroy jenkins on crack but actually succeeding in something lol

I initially thought class level as well and actually think it would be a good change if that were the case. Why should a multi-class character with not much level investment get to tier 5 abilities? Honestly this whole system favors multi class characters too much.

Edit: well they are restricting level 5s to one tree I guess that is something which favors pure class.

[Failedlegend]

nvm

[Vargouille]

I also think that points already spent on Core Abilities should count in the total points spent in tree number. Ftrom my simplistic viewpoint, they are points spent on that tree's abilities at the exclusion of other trees and should be counted as such.

Points spent on Core Abilities count for any points-spent requirements. If this is not already happening that is a bug.

[Vargouille]

So even more restriction to multi classers ?

This has no effect on multiclasses. It's character level, not class level.

[TPICKRELL]

Points spent on Core Abilities count for any points-spent requirements. If this is not already happening that is a bug.
Thanks., I'll double check, but they didn't seem to be counting when I rolled up a test fighter last week. I'll look very closely tommorrow when I finally get one of my real toons.

[Furelli]

Just to quote a dev from another thread

/quote Racial Core Enhancements are not intended to be limited by points spent in the tree. There were some bugs where some of them erroneously had this gating. /quote

which is very good news. I am very happy that the graphic given was correct and means that I can get my two racial stat increases without having to sink more than 6AP into the racial tree, just restricted by levels. It is how I thought it was and how it should be. Thank you for the clarification and indication that the bug will be fixed (if you can ;)).

Furelli

[Failedlegend]

This has no effect on multiclasses. It's character level, not class level.

This.

Although to be fair though Varg we love multi-classing and it's very threatened right now so the mistake is understandable (and I wish DnD would learn to stop using CL for everything...very confusing :P)

[CaptainSpacePony]

We will eventually add the "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from a single Tree" restriction.


I recommend considering changing that to "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from ONE CLASS Tree AND ONE RACIAL TREE restriction".

Furthermore, I have no issue with Characer Level 12 for tier 5, BUT I DO think tier 5 should have some class level restrictions as well. This would no kill multiclass as some claim, but to get the best stuff from a class should require concentration in said class. On live, for those presitiges that are fully developed, you must have 18 levels in the class. I think that is good design, let's keep that methodology in place.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Edit: well they are restricting level 5s to one tree I guess that is something which favors pure class.

I disagree w/your edit Matt. The restriction is not tier 5 only for pure class. A multiclass will be able to pull from multiple tier 4s and a tier 5. Therefore I do not see how that favors pure class.

[Urjak]

...

Tomorrow's Lamannia build features one major adjustment to the Enhancement Trees: We are lowering the number of Action Points spent in the Trees required to access the Top Tier Enhancements. (Class Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, 20, and 30 Action Points spent and Racial Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, and 15 Action Points spent.) Note that while this change would allow you to take Tier 5 abilities from two Class Trees, that is not intended. We will eventually add the "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from a single Tree" restriction.

...



This is AWESOME! The "you can only take t5 in one tree" restriction is totally okay for me (and I expected it anyways^^) ... but 5,10,20,30 and 5,10,15 are much, much better requirements (hehe in one post I even suggested 30 points for t5 ;p )

Really thank you for listening to us! :)

[maddmatt70]

I disagree w/your edit Matt. The restriction is not tier 5 only for pure class. A multiclass will be able to pull from multiple tier 4s and a tier 5. Therefore I do not see how that favors pure class.

Well it slightly favors pure, but might not be sufficient. I have a mix of pure builds and multiclass builds and it really seems like other then for my spellcasters everyone else should be multi-class builds based on what we have seen thus far. The devs have to calculate in the equation that if someone splashes in pally levels I get charisma to saves, or fighter levels I get feats, or monk or rogue I get evasion, feats and skills + I can get whatever vs. if I stay pure I get 10% more damage (kensai and arcane archer) well if someone goes with a 8 X 6 Y 6 Z build they can make up that 10% and much more with a lot more surviveablity with the different class levels.

[negativeprogression]

I think that all points spent should count towards opening up higher tiers irrespective of which pre they are spent in, the restriction of 3 prestige is sufficient enough in limiting the available options. Tier unlock point spends could then be increased to say 8-16-32-64 so that high tier abilities are not abundant and overpowering at lower levels. Core abilities could require at least one box from their corresponding pre tier. This would give more build freedom and feel a bit like the old system.

[Systern]

...Note that while this change would allow you to take Tier 5 abilities from two Class Trees, that is not intended. We will eventually add the "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from a single Tree" restriction.
...

Why? Presently, in the only comparable analog, you can have a Bardcher with Slayer Arrows and the full Inspire Courage line...

As of today (yes, I know these number will change on thursday, but I haven't seen them to do the math... the principle still stands):

An (half-) elf bardcher on live invests 14 AP into the racial prestige, and has 76 points to invest into Bardly goodness.

On Lamma, it currently takes 24 points to qualify and then BUY ACCESS to the racial prestige, and then 44ish points to get up to your slayer-y-i-miss-the-imbue feature leaving just 12 points for Bardly goodness.

That's a whole lot of CHER, and not much Bard in your Bardcher.


The example is true for monkchers and any other AA class out there. If it's so expensive to even get access to these Racial prestiges, what value do they really have to multiclasses? This completely shifts focus off the class and onto the prestige. Is a Drow Fighter Tempest stronger than a Human Ranger Tempest for all the extra feats, or impeded by the need to spend AP to get the racial prestige?

[EllisDee37]

Well, I do feel listened to, and these changes give me hope that the idea of moving from "AP spent in tree" to "total AP spent" -- which is absolutely required -- isn't completely out of the question. (Upping tier AP gates to, say, 0/10/30/44/68.)

Tier 5s locking each other out as a mechanic is perfect. It allows the devs to balance. Speaking of which, the specific concerns (eg: Aura shouldn't be tier 5) are easily addressed by simply moving them to tier 4 or even as a core ability. (Aura should DEFINITELY be the level 12 core ability.)


I recommend considering changing that to "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from ONE CLASS Tree AND ONE RACIAL TREE restriction".There is no tier 5 in any racial tree, and almost certainly never will be, so this concern is moot.

[oradafu]

We will eventually add the "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from a single Tree" restriction.

When discussions about the Enhancement system were underway a year ago, I was under the impression that a player could cap out two class trees at a very steep AP price: one class prestige tree and a racial prestige tree. So it appears this is no longer the case.

[Seikojin]

I think the tier 5 restriction should be more like as follows:
Battle Engineer: Tier 5
Weapon Attachment
Activate to attach your currently equipped weapons to youself, giving you superior control over them. Until you unequip these items or rest, they deal +0.5[W] damage. (Cooldown: 3 minutes)
AP Cost: 2
Ranks: 1
Requires: Artificer level 5, 30 AP spent in tree, Weapon Training tier 4, and one of: Construct Essence (feat), Warforged traits, Cannot have the following enhancements: Arcanotechnician: Tier 5 - Lightning Motes, Master Defender, or Evocation Focus

[HuneyMunster]

Well it slightly favors pure, but might not be sufficient. I have a mix of pure builds and multiclass builds and it really seems like other then for my spellcasters everyone else should be multi-class builds based on what we have seen thus far. The devs have to calculate in the equation that if someone splashes in pally levels I get charisma to saves, or fighter levels I get feats, or monk or rogue I get evasion, feats and skills + I can get whatever vs. if I stay pure I get 10% more damage (kensai and arcane archer) well if someone goes with a 8 X 6 Y 6 Z build they can make up that 10% and much more with a lot more surviveablity with the different class levels.

FVS, Wiz and Sorc cant tell untill enhancements are previewed and Cleric is along with the other spellcasters and multi-classing is still debatable. For example your Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1 would gain +2 Wisdom while uncentered, the 2 spell pen you would lose from live and either 50% crit on every 5th positive or Divine Intervention at the expense of 2 feats. The ability to have PRR from armor and +2 Wisdom is nice to get back in return, but gonna have to wait for what can be taken from Wiz and Monk trees.

Heres my current feats for my Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1
Maximize (Human)
Toughness(monk)
Necro Focus (wiz)
Empower Heal
Empower
Quicken
Evo focus, Greater Evo
Heighten
Spell pen, Greater Spell Pen, Epic Spell Pen

Myself, other factors including losing toughness(from monk feat) 27hp, but get 15hp from enhancements for loss of 12hp compare to live. But my hp on live is 603 with 2 toughness enhancements and 608 on Lam with no enhancements, so actual lose is on 6hp (or has toughness feat change?). I would also either lose Epic spell pen for 2 spell pen from cleric levels, total loss of 2 spell pen, or 1 DC to evo or necro. If I drop the necro feat I would not be able to get +3 necro from magister twist.

Either way I still lose 2 spell pen from the 2 I have from enhancements on live and I would guess some are losing 3 spell pen.

Almost forgot the ability to have all level 9 spells like Summon Monster IX instead of 3 of Heal Mass, Energy Drain, Implosion and True Resurrection.

[Vargouille]

I recommend considering changing that to "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from ONE CLASS Tree AND ONE RACIAL TREE restriction".

Racial trees don't have any Tier 5 abilities at this time.


Furthermore, I have no issue with Characer Level 12 for tier 5, BUT I DO think tier 5 should have some class level restrictions as well. This would no kill multiclass as some claim, but to get the best stuff from a class should require concentration in said class. On live, for those presitiges that are fully developed, you must have 18 levels in the class. I think that is good design, let's keep that methodology in place.

We're quite willing to hear feedback on this. Right now we're requiring only 5 class levels in order to aid multiclassing and reward particular builds that may want anywhere from 1-5 levels of a class "splashed" in order to gain specific enhancements. There's still Core Enhancements that require up to class level 20 to reward pure class builds.

[EllisDee37]

We're quite willing to hear feedback on this. Right now we're requiring only 5 class levels in order to aid multiclassing and reward particular builds that may want anywhere from 1-5 levels of a class "splashed" in order to gain specific enhancements. There's still Core Enhancements that require up to class level 20 to reward pure class builds.In terms of splashing, tier 5s are irrelevant. It's been clear from the start that only one tree would be allowed to go to tier 5, which is a decision I've always agreed with. It just makes sense.

But that structure means that whatever tier 5 you decide to go with, there's little point in not also going heavy on that class for levels. If I want a tier 5 in a ranger tree, I probably want more than 5 levels of ranger anyway. Or, rather, if I don't want more than 5 levels in ranger, I definitely want the tier 5 from a non-ranger class tree.

It's never been viable to take tier 5 in a splashed class, and likely shouldn't ever be.

[oradafu]

There's still Core Enhancements that require up to class level 20 to reward pure class builds.

So far, most of the class level 20 Core Enhancements are worth it. However, we'll see if that trend continues tomorrow when more classes are revealed. I suspect that we'll find some of the pure class buffs appearing will be buffs that only last a few seconds. If that's the case, it royally stinks that a pure class would end up very short term temporary buff when they could have splashed for more.

[orakio]

I recommend considering changing that to "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from ONE CLASS Tree AND ONE RACIAL TREE restriction".

Furthermore, I have no issue with Characer Level 12 for tier 5, BUT I DO think tier 5 should have some class level restrictions as well. This would no kill multiclass as some claim, but to get the best stuff from a class should require concentration in said class. On live, for those presitiges that are fully developed, you must have 18 levels in the class. I think that is good design, let's keep that methodology in place.

There are no Racial Tier 5's, racial trees only have 4 Tier's so your request isn't really needed :)

[Fecerak]

If I want a tier 5 in a ranger tree, I probably want more than 5 levels of ranger anyway. Or, rather, if I don't want more than 5 levels in ranger, I definitely want the tier 5 from a non-ranger class tree.


I don't agree with this. Consider a build such as 12 monk/8 fighter - that build might very well prefer one with the blade to getting its tier 5 from monks to get a better centered weapon.

While it is often the case that you want the tier 5 to be from the class you have the most levels in, it won't always be the case.

I think the tier 5 prerequisites as it is are fine - it allows more creative multiclasses, while not really making them too strong, since you will lose the tier 5 from your main class.

[Systern]

In terms of splashing, tier 5s are irrelevant. It's been clear from the start that only one tree would be allowed to go to tier 5, which is a decision I've always agreed with. It just makes sense.

But that structure means that whatever tier 5 you decide to go with, there's little point in not also going heavy on that class for levels. If I want a tier 5 in a ranger tree, I probably want more than 5 levels of ranger anyway. Or, rather, if I don't want more than 5 levels in ranger, I definitely want the tier 5 from a non-ranger class tree.

It's never been viable to take tier 5 in a splashed class, and likely shouldn't ever be.

I disagree as well. Think of all the builds out there currently that use Arcane Archer as a racial prestige alongside their class prestige.

And we're getting more racial prestige trees.

That won't co-exist with the class prestige focus.

And shuts out access entire themed aspects of a class, depending on number of trees available.

[EllisDee37]

If I want a tier 5 in a ranger tree, I probably want more than 5 levels of ranger anyway. Or, rather, if I don't want more than 5 levels in ranger, I definitely want the tier 5 from a non-ranger class tree.
I don't agree with this. Consider a build such as 12 monk/8 fighter - that build might very well prefer one with the blade to getting its tier 5 from monks to get a better centered weapon.I consider 8 levels to be more than 5 levels, which appears to agree with my point.

Regarding racial prestiges, on that I'm stumped. I have no experience or knowledge of them to give any kind of informed opinion. If there is a 15/5 split where the tier 5 comes from the splashed class due to a racial prestige, I stand corrected.

[shadereaper33]

So, my initial response to this is that lowering the AP costs of tier 5 is a step in the right direction, but no nearly enough. Also, the eventual locking out of tier 5 abilities such that you can only get tier 5 in one tree just seems to be a horrible running leap in the wrong direction. Ultimately, it depends on what you (the dev's) decide should be placed in tier 5, but from what I have seen so far that limitation will severely hurt anyone who takes a racial PrE, such as the current players who use the elven AA PrE. Now, if that requirement were to be dropped specifically if the PrE tree were accessed via the racial PrE enhancement, I think I would be ok with it. Someone is already giving up a fair amount to get access to that tree, and having it then arbitrarily lock them out of other key enhancements to their build just doesn't sit well. Then again, I am have never been a fan of arbitrary restrictions for the sake of restrictions. My personal opinion is that if someone wants to spend 30+ points in two specific trees, all but ignoring the other two, go for it.

[ZeebaNeighba]

Racial trees don't have any Tier 5 abilities at this time.I think he might mean prestiges unlocked by race, not the racial trees themselves.

With racial prestige tier 5 and class prestige tier 5 locking each other out, that would nerf many non-ranger arcane archer builds.

[Antheal]

Tomorrow's Lamannia build features one major adjustment to the Enhancement Trees: We are lowering the number of Action Points spent in the Trees required to access the Top Tier Enhancements. (Class Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, 20, and 30 Action Points spent and Racial Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, and 15 Action Points spent.) Note that while this change would allow you to take Tier 5 abilities from two Class Trees, that is not intended. We will eventually add the "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from a single Tree" restriction.

You know you get AP in multiples of 4/per level, not 5/per level, right?

[whereispowderedsilve]

34 point 15 ranger 4 fighter 1 rogue with +5 tomes.

Just an example some horrible choices made here. 15 AP left over I'd like to spend in DWS or the rogue tree but I can't.

I should be able to by all rights. If you disagree please list constructively why I shouldn't be able to spend those 15 AP in

another tree.

http://i.imgur.com/gFNlt4o.jpg

[karl_k0ch]

34 point 15 ranger 4 fighter 1 rogue with +5 tomes.

Just an example some horrible choices made here. 15 AP left over I'd like to spend in DWS or the rogue tree but I can't.


The real question is: If you're not getting the capstone, is it worth going AA anyway? DWS looks like a decent amount of extra damage for both ranged and melee damage.

Which kind of tier 1 rogue abilities would you like to pick?

[whereispowderedsilve]

The real question is: If you're not getting the capstone, is it worth going AA anyway? DWS looks like a decent amount of extra damage for both ranged and melee damage.

Which kind of tier 1 rogue abilities would you like to pick?

Karl, my fellow Oriener, it was just an exercise to show that I should still be able to spend the AP how I want it to.

But with that 3 tree limit I can't.

The AP I spent was more a function of just getting those ones left over so I can spend some in a 4th tree.

But I can't. Regardless of what I want to spend them on. Or if it is viable or not, that should be my choice no?

It could be: Racial tree/DWS/Tempest no AA, Kensai & then Stalwart or whatever else in another tree was the point I was trying to make.

[Davelfus]

No, it is not a step on the right direction... totaly the opposite...

just means that they will NOT even consider replacing the "points spent on tree" for "total points spent", maybe if we beg a lot until the last week... but looks like most ppl are already accepting it

And this is by far the main problem i see on this new system (or that we should have only one tree per class instead of one per prestige... can't decide which one is worse...)


We will eventually add the "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from a single Tree" restriction.

and now this... yeah those racial prestige classes will be really usefull... ¬¬

[Jay203]

limiting only 1 tier 5 enhancement to be taken is a ******** move
multiclassers are already severely hindered when it comes to enhancement selection (due to the limit of only choosing 3 class trees as well as the enhancements being thrown everywhere, resulting in not able to benefit from the multiclassing as much as one can right now on live)

the Core enhancements are the only ones that needs to be limited, they also need to be made better to make people want to take them.
leave the tree tier alone, just change the AP spent in tree requirement to ap spent total for the trees

also lift the stupid 3 tree limit, 'cause that's just stupid for character builds

[nibel]

Karl, my fellow Oriener, it was just an exercise to show that I should still be able to spend the AP how I want it to.

But with that 3 tree limit I can't.

The AP I spent was more a function of just getting those ones left over so I can spend some in a 4th tree.

But I can't. Regardless of what I want to spend them on. Or if it is viable or not, that should be my choice no?

No, this is an inherent limitation on the system for N reasons (usually balance). Just like we are limited to 2 epic feats, even if we have their pre-requisites on pre-epic levels.

This is an alpha and is subject to change. But considering that in the very first new enhancement UI the devs showed to us already grebbed on the 3-class-trees concept, I don't believe they will change it to 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, or unlimited class trees. So, I believe the race + 3 class trees is set on stone. Unless a dev specifically say somewhere that the tree's numbers are subject to change.

On a related note, please, people, stop trying to make the new system exactly the same as the old one. The game changes over time, and old builds get obsoleted and new builds are discovered. 2 years ago if you said on forums that a magic-missile-focused arcane was awesome, they would laugh at you. The AC revamp killed the monk-splash-for-wis-AC builds. And the evasion fix killed the batman builds.

I don't expect ANY helf angel, monkcher, or bardcher build to survive this pass (shiradi sorc will probably survive because their power is on the ED, not the class) because they were maximized to use 2-3 prestiges at once. Since most of the "flavor of the month" builds are crafted from the base up to maximize every single point of the current system, any system change have a high chance to kill them. Expect it and build with the new system a better combination.

[sephiroth1084]

In terms of splashing, tier 5s are irrelevant. It's been clear from the start that only one tree would be allowed to go to tier 5, which is a decision I've always agreed with. It just makes sense.

But that structure means that whatever tier 5 you decide to go with, there's little point in not also going heavy on that class for levels. If I want a tier 5 in a ranger tree, I probably want more than 5 levels of ranger anyway. Or, rather, if I don't want more than 5 levels in ranger, I definitely want the tier 5 from a non-ranger class tree.

It's never been viable to take tier 5 in a splashed class, and likely shouldn't ever be.
I disagree.

I can certainly think of several multiclass combos where I'd really like the class features obtained at level 15 from one class, but the tier 5 enhancements from my secondary class, and many more combos for which I would want tier 5 enhancements from a class I took only 6 levels in (yes, I know this is more than 5, but the point is the same). My monkcher 12 monk/6 ranger/2 artificer would prefer to have top tier AA or DWS enhancements to top tier monk enhancements. In live, this is accomplished by playing as an elf or half-elf, but without being tethered to a particular race, that need not be the only solution.

[sephiroth1084]

Devs, I still assert (as many others do), that the limit of three class trees is unnecessarily restrictive. Please remove that restriction.

[Jay203]

Devs, I still assert (as many others do), that the limit of three class trees is unnecessarily restrictive. Please remove that restriction.

i'm one of those

[FZTopaz]

Devs, I still assert (as many others do), that the limit of three class trees is unnecessarily restrictive. Please remove that restriction.

I see it as a necessary restriction. With lowered point cost, I can obtain a LOT more, making my character insanely powerful, more powerful than they are now. Let's see how things go with some new classes and changes implemented tomorrow. But, I still think allowing tier 5 in more than one tree would be overkill and it would wipe out power creep...it would be a power flood instead.

[hit_fido]

Tomorrow's Lamannia build features one major adjustment to the Enhancement Trees: We are lowering the number of Action Points spent in the Trees required to access the Top Tier Enhancements. (Class Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, 20, and 30 Action Points spent and Racial Enhancement Trees will require 0, 5, 10, and 15 Action Points spent.) Note that while this change would allow you to take Tier 5 abilities from two Class Trees, that is not intended. We will eventually add the "You can only take Tier 5 Enhancements from a single Tree" restriction.[/b]

This is a good incremental improvement. What I hope you guys look at next is whether it makes sense, as another incremental improvement, to tweak those a little more, to something like: 0, 0, 4, 20, and 30. The rationale for further dropping the AP requirements at the lower levels is pretty basic: you've had to squeeze a lot of formerly available-at-level-1 enhancements into a smaller space, resulting in (I suspect) some unintended consequences like Dwarf spell defense locked out til Tier 3 and Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery locked out til Tier 2 (not to mention the un-necessary prereq). I certainly don't see any game breaking enhancements in the first three tiers, and I do see scenarios where we're required to spend more AP on enhancements irrelevant to our builds than on Live just to unlock those tier 2 and 3 enhancements we formerly had early and less expensive access to.

[Seikojin]

No, it is not a step on the right direction... totaly the opposite...

just means that they will NOT even consider replacing the "points spent on tree" for "total points spent", maybe if we beg a lot until the last week... but looks like most ppl are already accepting it

And this is by far the main problem i see on this new system (or that we should have only one tree per class instead of one per prestige... can't decide which one is worse...)



and now this... yeah those racial prestige classes will be really usefull... ¬¬


limiting only 1 tier 5 enhancement to be taken is a ******** move
multiclassers are already severely hindered when it comes to enhancement selection (due to the limit of only choosing 3 class trees as well as the enhancements being thrown everywhere, resulting in not able to benefit from the multiclassing as much as one can right now on live)

the Core enhancements are the only ones that needs to be limited, they also need to be made better to make people want to take them.
leave the tree tier alone, just change the AP spent in tree requirement to ap spent total for the trees

also lift the stupid 3 tree limit, 'cause that's just stupid for character builds


Devs, I still assert (as many others do), that the limit of three class trees is unnecessarily restrictive. Please remove that restriction.

Limits like AP spent in tree are designed to keep people from cherry picking the best abilities and not devoting effort into the pre. Same with the 3 tree limit. The idea is to have a little more freedom than 1 per class like live, but still put people on the path of using three pre's to make their build. Now it is allowing people to use similar pre's for one class to help compensate for the weaknesses of the individual pre. I want to say mainly to allow melee fighters the use of Kensai and Stalwart at the same time, since Kensai is AC deficient, and most Kensai users are trying to be survivable as pure fighters, but that is a very specific role and line, and a system this broad is meant to help more builds fill their weakness gaps.

I think the racial tree points will count towards class tree requirements. It makes sense.

I think the cost per enhancement will drop overall, while certain abilities will go up a point.

I think we will see multi-selector enhancements have more range and flexability.

I think the requirement cuts are fine. Not in the step in a right direction way, just a sign of testing the waters on that to see if that alone can mitigate the climb for a tier 5. Since a lot of people are hurt about the need to buy into unused enhancements to qualify for their desired abilities.

[sephiroth1084]

I see it as a necessary restriction. With lowered point cost, I can obtain a LOT more, making my character insanely powerful, more powerful than they are now. Let's see how things go with some new classes and changes implemented tomorrow. But, I still think allowing tier 5 in more than one tree would be overkill and it would wipe out power creep...it would be a power flood instead.
You're talking about two different things here.

Personally, I think one tier 5 is probably enough. If I had to choose between being able to obtain tier 5 abilities in two trees, or being able to pick enhancements from more than three trees, I'd absolutely choose the latter.

An ideal system, I think, would be to simply lift the 3 tree restriction (you really are fairly limited in what you can obtain), lower the bar to get into tier 5 abilities, then allow characters with 20 levels in a class to select from a second tier 5. This rewards both multiclassers and pure-classers. The multi-classers continue to be able to use enhancements from all of their classes without shooting themselves in the foot, while the pure characters get a reward for not multi-classing: the ability to further specialize in their class.

[Jitty]

"Trees" are the only real problem with the system so far. This system doesn't exist in the game on live, and I see no need for it.
I hope the devs go back the original inception of the enhancement system changes (at least as far as players went). A thread started by Maj asking what was the one thing players wanted to see from the game in the next year (which would have been 2012 btw).
What players said was finish the prestige classes. What changed between then and now? We didn't ask for a system that changes the limits of character building in an unnecessarily restrictive way.
The only thing that is broken about the current system is the UI. You are fixing things that aren't broken when there is plenty to fix that is broken.

[nibel]

The only thing that is broken about the current system is the UI. You are fixing things that aren't broken when there is plenty to fix that is broken.

I love how people just ignore how much more awesome the ranger enhancement turned out, because their cleric lines are incomplete (they are, you can see the domain names when you select faith lines) and people don't want to expend AP to unlock AA on a h/elf.

Artificer/Fighter, for me, was more or less the same. Sure, some oversight here and there, but no big boost or big nerf.

[Jay203]

Limits like AP spent in tree are designed to keep people from cherry picking the best abilities and not devoting effort into the pre. Same with the 3 tree limit. The idea is to have a little more freedom than 1 per class like live, but still put people on the path of using three pre's to make their build. Now it is allowing people to use similar pre's for one class to help compensate for the weaknesses of the individual pre. I want to say mainly to allow melee fighters the use of Kensai and Stalwart at the same time, since Kensai is AC deficient, and most Kensai users are trying to be survivable as pure fighters, but that is a very specific role and line, and a system this broad is meant to help more builds fill their weakness gaps.

I think the racial tree points will count towards class tree requirements. It makes sense.

I think the cost per enhancement will drop overall, while certain abilities will go up a point.

I think we will see multi-selector enhancements have more range and flexability.

I think the requirement cuts are fine. Not in the step in a right direction way, just a sign of testing the waters on that to see if that alone can mitigate the climb for a tier 5. Since a lot of people are hurt about the need to buy into unused enhancements to qualify for their desired abilities.

no, the multi-classers are already giving up capstones and access to higher level class abilities in order to get a "bigger access" to abilities. the current system punishes their sacrifice instead of rewarding them
the new system, however, rewards the pure classers by giving them additional choices they never were able to choose before. they used to be only able to get 1 PrE, maybe 2 if they have access to racial PrE. now they can access 3 from a same class, 2 more than what they were able to before.

the whole point of multiclassing is getting benefits from your splashes in such a way that you feel it's worth the loss of going pure and gaining access to the higher level stuff of certain class. the current enhancement system does that really well, and they're able to choose what abilities they feel will help them.

and your concern about cherry picking... pure builds will be doing the cherry picking as well, and they have a lot less to lose than the mix builds

[Antheal]

the new system, however, rewards the pure classers by giving them additional choices they never were able to choose before. they used to be only able to get 1 PrE, maybe 2 if they have access to racial PrE. now they can access 3 from a same class, 2 more than what they were able to before.

Except they pretty much have to allow access to 3 trees as the core class abilities, that shouldn't be tied to any prestige enhancement line, are being scattered amongst these trees.

[Systern]

"Trees" are the only real problem with the system so far. This system doesn't exist in the game on live, and I see no need for it.
I hope the devs go back the original inception of the enhancement system changes (at least as far as players went). A thread started by Maj asking what was the one thing players wanted to see from the game in the next year (which would have been 2012 btw).
What players said was finish the prestige classes. What changed between then and now? We didn't ask for a system that changes the limits of character building in an unnecessarily restrictive way.
The only thing that is broken about the current system is the UI. You are fixing things that aren't broken when there is plenty to fix that is broken.

What's worse is that either MajMal or Varg posted that they're only committing to 2 trees per class at launch, not the original 3. But They'll add more later! ... ... ... ... (heard that one before)

So we're going from one unfinished enhancements system with a bad UI to.... another unfinished enhancements system with a bad UI! This isn't exactly progress.


(BTW, yes the UI is bad.
Compare "Fluff Enhancement 3/3" to "T1 Improved Recovery 1/1, T3 Improved recovery 1/1, T4 Improved Recovery 1/1".
Why the inconsistent presentation? Because you want to slap additional restrictions on one and not the other? The UI can't handle this consistently?
Old bad UI has "Show Unavailable" checkbox. New Bad UI, which shares the same complaint of Destiny Trees for the past year, is that you can't get information on unavailable ranks of enhancements.
I'd be surprised if anyone understood that "Core Abilities" were different from "Innates" in Destiny trees, especially with the 'First fix is free' mechanic in Core abilities.
The compartmentalization of class aspects to trees forms template Min/Max builds and removes flexibility from the player.

They found a solution that needed a problem. And when the solution didn't fit the problem, they tried to rework it so that the problem could maybe, kind of, fit.

This enhancement system would probably fit better into their MOBA than their MMORPG.)

[EllisDee37]

I disagree.

I can certainly think of several multiclass combos where I'd really like the class features obtained at level 15 from one class, but the tier 5 enhancements from my secondary class, and many more combos for which I would want tier 5 enhancements from a class I took only 6 levels in (yes, I know this is more than 5, but the point is the same). My monkcher 12 monk/6 ranger/2 artificer would prefer to have top tier AA or DWS enhancements to top tier monk enhancements. In live, this is accomplished by playing as an elf or half-elf, but without being tethered to a particular race, that need not be the only solution.This is compelling. I stand corrected.

[EllisDee37]

No, it is not a step on the right direction... totaly the opposite...

just means that they will NOT even consider replacing the "points spent on tree" for "total points spent", maybe if we beg a lot until the last week... but looks like most ppl are already accepting itI think it means the opposite. In order to move to a "total AP spent" mechanic, they biggest stumbling block is that they'd need to introduce a separate mechanic to lock out tier 5s from other trees once you commit to a tier 5 in one tree. They've already agreed to this lock-out mechanic, meaning the way is now clear to move to "total AP spent."

[Deathdefy]

I still don't like the 'only tier 5s from 1 tree' thing.

I could handle 'only tier 5s from 1 class's trees'. i.e. if you go nuts on Deepwood and AA, you could have both Slaying Arrows and Headshot.

Having said that, honestly, I need to see the other PRE trees before I go too nuts. If there are lots of great Tier 5 ability choices, that obviously are strong enough in their own right to be exclusive, and would lean towards overpowered if combined, then I'll shush up.

That's not the case with the released trees though, and as it stands, I think the game would be made more enjoyable for both multi-classes and pure-classes if multiple T5s were selectable, at least from within a single class's set of PRE trees.

Brief, ill-considered rant -

I appreciate that the first post in this thread is pretty definitive about tier 5s ultimately going to be exclusive, so I'm pessimistic, but just for the record:

- designing every single PRE tree to have roughly equal [Capstone + Tier 5 Abilities] is going to be a Herculean task.

Currently, to my mind, of the trees I feel I have sufficient class knowledge, to speak on:

AA T5 + cap pretty definitively > Deepwood T5 + cap.

Battle Engineer T5 + Cap pretty definitively > Arcanotechnician T5 + cap.

BUT, big caveat here, Arcanotechnician probably does have the superior capstone. I don't think that's a pleasant toss-up. The choice between trashy T5 abilities and a better capstone, or better T5 abilities and a regrettable capstone isn't a fun one and I think would leave a permanent bad taste in my mouth.

Allowing T5s at least within the same class, and making Capstone choice a little more liberal, and possibly solely dependent on Class levels (maybe not even considering AP spent across Class PRE Trees at all, or if AP spent must be considered, then just look at total spent within all of that class's PREs' trees) would be nice.

That's how it is on live (sort of... think Rogue, where every sensible pure rogue, regardless of PRE, takes the assassin capstone), and it's nice. If I HAD to take 'cheat death' if I didn't go assassin, well... yuck. I'd be constantly mildly peeved whenever I played that character - to the point of probably not seriously considering making a pure 20 non-assassin rogue.

EDIT: TL;DR = Sever Capstone Choice from T5 choice.

[Davelfus]

I love how people just ignore how much more awesome the ranger enhancement turned out, because their cleric lines are incomplete (they are, you can see the domain names when you select faith lines) and people don't want to expend AP to unlock AA on a h/elf.

Artificer/Fighter, for me, was more or less the same. Sure, some oversight here and there, but no big boost or big nerf.

love how ppl ignore that all those enhancements could have been easily added on the old system... saving a lot of time to complete the prestige lines that are missing...
it just needed a ui change and improvements on the existing stuff (btw, this is what they said we would get...)

ofc that the new tempest looks shinie and all. Hells, improving "not so much used" prestiges should be one of the objectives too.

what i'm really more concerned is the system in general and how i don't like they way we need to build on it... it is basicaly the same thing as EDs, but different.

Each ED feels like a entire "class tree", they make me feel i'm getting the complete package...

but when i look at those 3 ranger trees for example, with a lot of general ranger enhancements spread all over the place, crazy rules now like can take tier 5 from only one tree, that is free, this isn't... it makes me feel totaly restricted...

it would be way better imo, if we had 1 tree per class... it would make way more sense for me... max 3 classes in a multiclass = 3 class trees...
and no need to create a lot of useless enhancements just to fill all that space in the prestige classes trees...

[Aashrym]

no, the multi-classers are already giving up capstones and access to higher level class abilities in order to get a "bigger access" to abilities. the current system punishes their sacrifice instead of rewarding them
the new system, however, rewards the pure classers by giving them additional choices they never were able to choose before. they used to be only able to get 1 PrE, maybe 2 if they have access to racial PrE. now they can access 3 from a same class, 2 more than what they were able to before.

the whole point of multiclassing is getting benefits from your splashes in such a way that you feel it's worth the loss of going pure and gaining access to the higher level stuff of certain class. the current enhancement system does that really well, and they're able to choose what abilities they feel will help them.

and your concern about cherry picking... pure builds will be doing the cherry picking as well, and they have a lot less to lose than the mix builds

Most classes don't actually have higher level abilities to lose and pure classes in the new system have a lot less choices from which to cherry pick than multiclassing offers. Right now 4 or 5 levels looks like a great split, or 3 and 2, or 4 and 4, or 3 and 3, etc. Giving up a capstone to select most of an entire tree to supplement the build is nice.

The 3 tree limit isn't very limiting when we'll all want to spend what we can on the better enhancements in the higher tiers anyway, and the 3 tree limitation is a lot less limiting than the level gating we currently have on live.

Having 11 fighter enhancements limited to 1 rank at level 2 is more restricted than having access to 9 fighter enhancements that stack up to 3 ranks at level 2. Having 14 enhancements that can have 1 or 2 ranks at level 5 is more restricted than having access to 21 enhancements in 1 tree that can all have full ranks.

1 tree has more enhancements without the high level gating than all the class enhancements combined with the level gating.

Mix builds might end up being different, but the new system seems very multi-class friendly to me. The only draw I see to pure is the capstones, and possibly spell slots for casters who still look good with small dips.

[Flavilandile]

By the way, while we are gone to the tree ( and number thereof ) :

Any news about more trees for the Cleric and getting of rid of the stupid Protection Tree ? ( or at least making it so it's not a clickathon... clerics have better things to do than keeping tracks of 20s stupid clickies )

[sephiroth1084]

Same with the 3 tree limit. The idea is to have a little more freedom than 1 per class like live, but still put people on the path of using three pre's to make their build. Now it is allowing people to use similar pre's for one class to help compensate for the weaknesses of the individual pre.
That isn't more freedom.

Live, there are restrictions on how I assemble my classes and PrEs, but then I've got a lot of freedom in how I spend my AP. I can, for instance, invest a little in trap monkeying, a little in UMD and self-healing, a little in utility stuff like Sprint Boost, and then the bulk of what I want assembling disparate abilities toward my ultimate goal, such as investing in Ninja Spy and Arcane Archer, along with all of the above. Yeah, I can't dip into both AA and Deepwood Stalker, but under the new system I would have to choose between any more specialization and all of the secondary stuff I have, because I would need to in only 3 trees, instead of what are essentially probably 6.

[Kza]

You're talking about two different things here.

Personally, I think one tier 5 is probably enough. If I had to choose between being able to obtain tier 5 abilities in two trees, or being able to pick enhancements from more than three trees, I'd absolutely choose the latter.

An ideal system, I think, would be to simply lift the 3 tree restriction (you really are fairly limited in what you can obtain), lower the bar to get into tier 5 abilities, then allow characters with 20 levels in a class to select from a second tier 5. This rewards both multiclassers and pure-classers. The multi-classers continue to be able to use enhancements from all of their classes without shooting themselves in the foot, while the pure characters get a reward for not multi-classing: the ability to further specialize in their class.

I agree to this, perfect both for multis and pures. This adds lots to consider in character generation. DDO at its best.

[Deamus]

We're quite willing to hear feedback on this. Right now we're requiring only 5 class levels in order to aid multiclassing and reward particular builds that may want anywhere from 1-5 levels of a class "splashed" in order to gain specific enhancements. There's still Core Enhancements that require up to class level 20 to reward pure class builds.

Tier abilities as well core abilities should be linked with class level like on live. Only 18 lvl of the class should get the tier 5 abilities , lvl 12 3rd tier , 6 2 tier etc . Tier 5 abilities are more stronger than Core ones .

The existing system on live as it is with the restrictions is good enough . Why to change it ? To break even more the balance between pures and multiclass ? Multiclass with the right combination but also with minimum tradeoff are way more powerful than pure builds.

[Entelech]

There needs to either be a "General Class" tab for each class you have levels in, or three trees is too low a limit.

For example, it's absurd that a Kensai fighter should have to lock in the Stalwart Defender tree just to get access to Item Defense, when anybody with a Fighter level could grab it before.

Same thing for Monks and Healing Amp...or Rogues and Fast Sneaking.

Although I do like the way you reorganized the Monk stances.

Also, if you want to reward pure or mostly-pure builds, that "General Class" tab would be the place to do it, since "X levels in relevant class" and arrows could largely replace the "points spent in tree" tiering for those tabs. It would allow pure classes more freedom to cherrypick and bounce around within their PrE trees than deep multis would have, in exchange for the multiclasser's larger array of options.

[sephiroth1084]

We have put in a Character Level 12 requirement for Class Tier 5 abilities. (This is CHARACTER level. Not class level.)

Other tiers remain unchanged (besides racial Tier 4 abilities, as previously noted).


tier 5 requires 30 points spent in tree (not a big fan of "in tree" still, but ignore for now
tier 5 requires character level 12
you are permitted access to only one tree's tier 5, normally
upon gaining level 20 in a single class, you are granted access to any tier 5s you meet the other requirements for, allowing single-classed characters to take tier 5 abilities in more than one tree
characters are not limited to 3 class trees, allowing multiclassed characters to select enhancements from up to 9 class trees, depending upon their class split

The goals here are as follows:


Multi-classed characters have access to all of the pieces of their class split(s), as they do in live, plus the added accessibility that comes from loosening class-based access to enhancements.
Any character can get into a single tree's tier 5 abilities at character level 12th.
Single-classed, heroically capped characters (lvl 20) receive a boon that allows them to use two of their class' tier 5 trees if they want them. This provides some incentive to stay pure, and balances against a lot of the weight being lumped on the "multi-classing is good" side of the scale.

So, for example, an archer could go X Ranger/Y Monk/Z Fighter, pick up all of Deepwood Stalker, a little Arcane Archer, Ninja Spy, and Kensei, along with Ten Thousand Stars, or they could go pure Ranger 20 and pick up essentially all of both Deepwood Stalker and Arcane Archer, having access to the tier 5s of both trees.

[Deamus]

tier 5 requires 30 points spent in tree (not a big fan of "in tree" still, but ignore for now
tier 5 requires character level 12
you are permitted access to only one tree's tier 5, normally
upon gaining level 20 in a single class, you are granted access to any tier 5s you meet the other requirements for, allowing single-classed characters to take tier 5 abilities in more than one tree
characters are not limited to 3 class trees, allowing multiclassed characters to select enhancements from up to 9 class trees, depending upon their class split

The goals here are as follows:


Multi-classed characters have access to all of the pieces of their class split(s), as they do in live, plus the added accessibility that comes from loosening class-based access to enhancements.
Any character can get into a single tree's tier 5 abilities at character level 12th.
Single-classed, heroically capped characters (lvl 20) receive a boon that allows them to use two of their class' tier 5 trees if they want them. This provides some incentive to stay pure, and balances against a lot of the weight being lumped on the "multi-classing is good" side of the scale.

So, for example, an archer could go X Ranger/Y Monk/Z Fighter, pick up all of Deepwood Stalker, a little Arcane Archer, Ninja Spy, and Kensei, along with Ten Thousand Stars, or they could go pure Ranger 20 and pick up essentially all of both Deepwood Stalker and Arcane Archer, having access to the tier 5s of both trees.

This is also a good suggestion . Tier 5 abilities on lvl 12 not on level 5.

With the current proposal of the devs one can make an OP build.
Really fast example without going into details and based on leaked info about shintao monk from here : http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4983322&postcount=53

Fast Thought Example.
Ultimate Evasion DPS Tank Manyshot, The (put some pompous name to show off a bit) Cultist : :PPPPP

12 Fighter Kensai or Stalward defender, 6 Monk Shintao ,2 Ranger. Get the fighter levels for the feats ,specialize in unarmed , invest some points in Kensai haste boosts , and other goodies etc or stalward defender if stackable. 6 Monk levels shintao ,get evasion , invest to tier 5 abilities with tanking and also break DR in some types. Finally 2 ranger levels for the feats for manyshot and some AP invested for ranged dps.

This is a really fast example which was thought in 2 mins and not gone through detail. Completely broken and OP. It was created to show how could the current system proposed by devs be exploited and break the balance.

PS: Class Level Restrictions should be made to avoid examples as above.

[CaptainSpacePony]

I think he might mean prestiges unlocked by race, not the racial trees themselves.

With racial prestige tier 5 and class prestige tier 5 locking each other out, that would nerf many non-ranger arcane archer builds.

That is precisely where my idea came from. While Arcane Archer was the tree I intended to flag, it may apply to more down the road (Dwarven staltwart defender perhaps?).

[bhgiant]

We have put in a Character Level 12 requirement for Class Tier 5 abilities. (This is CHARACTER level. Not class level.)

Other tiers remain unchanged (besides racial Tier 4 abilities, as previously noted).

I'm ok with this. Being able to hit top tier should be reserved for later levels. Also loving the idea of only needing 30 points to take top tier. This potentially saves 10 points in that tree you can spend on another. I'll have to play with it though to see how effective is actually is.

[I_Bob]

I am not sure that I agree with the tier 5 core abilities can only be taken in one tree. I am of the opinion that a pure level 20 ranger should be able to get the core abilities from deepwood sniper and arcane archer. Why not reward pure builds a little it seems like multi-class's get the overall advantage so why not reward pure builds. The same with level 20 fighter that is kensai and stalwart or level 20 cleric that is healing and protection or pure level 20 artificer and those two core abilities.

I agree. It would be great to give a pure class character a reason to be pure class, especially Clerics. As it is, there are far too few of them and this would help alleviate the wait for a "healer".

Another quote: "Tier 5s locking each other out as a mechanic is perfect. It allows the devs to balance. Speaking of which, the specific concerns (eg: Aura shouldn't be tier 5) are easily addressed by simply moving them to tier 4 or even as a core ability. (Aura should DEFINITELY be the level 12 core ability.)"

Totally agree with this as well. Having only one tier 5 is good for balance. The aura should move to 4 and/or a core ability available at level 12..

[dronakin]

They are making it so you can only take a Tier 5 enhancements from one tree, it's not underpowering things. Even in the destinies you can't take top tier abilities from two trees. There are plenty of abilities in tier 4 and down that are handy, and I'm sure you can take the capstone, but you get only one capstone. It gives you something to look forward to the end of your class if you're not multiclassed, otherwise there would be no pure class builds, they would all be hybrid.

As for Positive Energy Aura, it shouldn't be a tier 5 skill, and if it is, it should heal more than 7 HP every other second, because people take way more than that in damage at level 20, and I understand it gets modified, but even if you have 300%, it's still 21 HP.

[Lerincho]

While I know most are complaining about the cost in tree, I can see the reasoning per prestige class to have this; however, for racial it is not logical. You continue to always be a halfling, or whatever race; but you can change your class. Racial enhancement tree should see TOTAL point spent, and prestige trees should see in tree spent. I know this will not be popular amongst the EE crowd; however, it is the solution that provides the most logic.

Yes, I do know, using logic in a fantasy game is very ironic.

[Jorge_2070]

I love how people just ignore how much more awesome the ranger enhancement turned out, because their cleric lines are incomplete (they are, you can see the domain names when you select faith lines) and people don't want to expend AP to unlock AA on a h/elf.

Artificer/Fighter, for me, was more or less the same. Sure, some oversight here and there, but no big boost or big nerf.
What are you talking about? My exploiter-esque tempest ranger lost big on the things that made her fun. She picked up a little more melee DPS and damage mitigation and lost huge in flexibility (archery) and self healing. I honestly hated the changes, with formerly generic ranger abilities arbitrarily assigned to one PrE line or another. I'd need at least 2 ranger trees and a rogue and a monk tree just to get her to the same level of functionality she had before.

You may think that's awesome. I personally thought it sucked. I dunno, maybe i just didn't play with it enough, but I hated how the changes turned out for her. I might as well reroll into a TWF fighter. And then realize i'm gimping myself and pick up cleave, so I can run around spamming cleave, gr. cleave, momentum swing, lay waste, that seems to be so popular these days. :(

[fredericko]

They are making it so you can only take a Tier 5 enhancements from one tree, it's not underpowering things. Even in the destinies you can't take top tier abilities from two trees. There are plenty of abilities in tier 4 and down that are handy, and I'm sure you can take the capstone, but you get only one capstone. It gives you something to look forward to the end of your class if you're not multiclassed, otherwise there would be no pure class builds, they would all be hybrid.

+1. "Choice" implies "consequence". Of course there should be "choice" in where to spend those 40 APs, and not a clearly superior branch everyone will take and then filler you end up picking because you have to, but wouldn't otherwise want in your build (not saying this is the case for every class).
I see a lot of potential in a system that allows your toon to go bard 15/fighter 5 without turning it into a bard with a couple extra feats striving to make up for the missing 15 fighter levels with gear and ED's. Bard, kensai, or somewhere in between; the choice is yours. Where it reads "bard/fighter" it could have said 15fvs/5 ranger. I am pretty sure we will be soon seeing different alternatives to the popular juggernaut build with the same endgame capabilities and performance.
Of course, there's the other side to this change, a bill that's to be paid by those people who went the extra mile and carefully planned deep level splits, feats, and enhancements to device efficient and creative builds, then spent years getting the gear to make it all work. My advice is to roll with the punch and begin planning how to make similar builds within the new system (easier said than done).

[nibel]

What are you talking about? My exploiter-esque tempest ranger lost big on the things that made her fun.

Keyword on red.

I'm saying that live ranger enhancement lines (and ONLY ranger) got a very nice bump up compared to the lamannia version.

Nothing with multiclass builds.

Nothing with old combos.

Just that pure rangers have better options than they have right now on live.

Fighter and Artie stopped around the same levels (some buffs, some oversights, some stuff missing), and cleric is clearly incomplete (We might see more domains on the fvs test today).

And yet, most people are crying over the loss of racial AA effectiveness.

[karl_k0ch]

Do I see it correctly that feedback given tomorrow will be lost in the vB-update-limbo?

[SqueakofDoom]

Do I see it correctly that feedback given tomorrow will be lost in the vB-update-limbo?

I have a solution for that! I will post an alternative (first thing in the morning - before the forums are brought down) so that you can still provide feedback while we are doing work on the Forums.

[Systern]

I have a solution for that! I will post an alternative (first thing in the morning - before the forums are brought down) so that you can still provide feedback while we are doing work on the Forums.

since I don't plan on being awake in that 2 hour period between the time you post it and they take the forums off-line... How am I gunna know? :)

[mikarddo]

I have a solution for that! I will post an alternative (first thing in the morning - before the forums are brought down) so that you can still provide feedback while we are doing work on the Forums.

Sorry, but thats a pretty major fail :)

[Seikojin]

Just submit bugs with the title of feedback, etc.

Open my sig bug template for some pointers. Save it to notepad.

[eachna_gislin]

I love how people just ignore how much more awesome the ranger enhancement turned out, because their cleric lines are incomplete (they are, you can see the domain names when you select faith lines) and people don't want to expend AP to unlock AA on a h/elf.

Artificer/Fighter, for me, was more or less the same. Sure, some oversight here and there, but no big boost or big nerf.

So, both FvS and Clerics only getting 2 trees and even worse, Protection shared between them, weak racial enhancements on multiple races, other classes besides the divines getting weak class trees, expensive racial prestiges you can't afford to level because you don't have enough AP to do them justice, unrelated enhancements linked together solely to minimize choice in AP spending, and other problems should all be ignored instead because Rangers look good???

It's not just clerics and AA's. A big chunk of what's out there is poorly designed.

[Davelfus]

since I don't plan on being awake in that 2 hour period between the time you post it and they take the forums off-line... How am I gunna know? :)

they could post at twitter... quick google search and you can find it even if you don't use it

[EllisDee37]

I have a solution for that! I will post an alternative (first thing in the morning - before the forums are brought down) so that you can still provide feedback while we are doing work on the Forums.You guys really could not have picked a worse time to mess with the forums.

[EllisDee37]

I'm saying that live ranger enhancement lines (and ONLY ranger) got a very nice bump up compared to the lamannia version. Ranger got kicked in the teeth when they took a major hit to their self-healing. The devs say they intend to add devotion back in, but guaranteed it comes back in the form of "you gain +1 devotion per point spent in tree" for exactly one of the ranger trees. And that will likely be the AA tree. So tempests got a big nerf.

[Aashrym]

So, both FvS and Clerics only getting 2 trees and even worse, Protection shared between them

I've decided that must be a bug. Even if it's WAI. The classes are too similar already to be sharing trees.

[sephiroth1084]

You guys really could not have picked a worse time to mess with the forums.
They're like the guys that schedule road work, sewage maintenance, repaving, and cable installation in NYC:

One week, they tear the road up and repave.
The next week, they tear the road way up to do some sewage work underneath.
The week after that, they repave.
After that, the cable company rolls in and rips it up to lay down some new service.

[oradafu]

They're like the guys that schedule road work, sewage maintenance, repaving, and cable installation in NYC:

One week, they tear the road up and repave.
The next week, they tear the road way up to do some sewage work underneath.
The week after that, they repave.
After that, the cable company rolls in and rips it up to lay down some new service.

It's not just in New York. I've found that to be pretty close to universal true.

BTW, that's exactly what I was thinking when they announced the forums were being shut down midway into the Enhancement preview.

It's either poor planning, as your example gives. Or it's their way of cutting down on our complaints about the enhancements.

[sephiroth1084]

It's not just in New York. I've found that to be pretty close to universal true.

BTW, that's exactly what I was thinking when they announced the forums were being shut down midway into the Enhancement preview.

It's either poor planning, as your example gives. Or it's their way of cutting down on our complaints about the enhancements.
I'd be willing to bet that it's one team making decisions without consulting with another team, not something more nefarious. I'm more inclined to believe in some degree of incompetence over at Turbine (sometimes a lot), sooner than I am to buy into a conspiracy going on (other than their changes to the game designed to snap up more and more money from suckers).

Well, I haven't lived anywhere but here, so my experience in that regard is fairly limited, but it certainly would seem to be a common symptom of bureaucracy the world over.

[sephiroth1084]

By the way, I'd be okay with some enhancements having characterlevel requirements on an individual basis. For example, Keep Wand and Scroll Mastery at roughly where it is, but put in level requisites for the higher ranks. That seems reasonable to me as a gate for preventing too much power at low levels, although the AP availability cap should really take care of that all on its own.