Lamannia Update: EARLY Enhancements Preview

[SqueakofDoom]

Lamannia will be coming down for an update on April 11 between 10am and 2pm EST (GMT -5).

This Update will contain an Early Preview of Enhancements on Lamannia. For the next three weeks, you, the players, will have the opportunity to get an early look at our upcoming Enhancements revamp. While Racial Enhancement Trees will be available for the entire time, Class Enhancements will be distributed throughout the weeks as follows:

Week 1 (April 11 – 17):

Artificer
Cleric
Fighter
Ranger

Week 2 (April 18 – 24):

Druid
Favored Soul
Rogue
Sorcerer
Wizard

Week 3 (April 25 – May 1):

Barbarian
Bard
Monk
Paladin

These Class Enhancements will only be available during the weeks specified. During the off weeks, they will be disabled in order to allow us to get more focused feedback. There will be Surveys and Sub-Forums available to you, and we highly encourage you to use them.

Keep in mind that this is an EARLY PREVIEW! There will be bugs!

[knightgf]

I know you guys are real busy making this as good as possible, but can we get some sort of text or other type of preview to see what enhancements we can pick for all classes before and during the preview? (Like something we would see on a wiki?)

That being said, real exciting! I cant wait to see this come about!

[Nibor]

One of the most important aspects of the Enhancement system is how they will interact in various multiclass builds - both today's builds, and new builds based on the changes. Keeping them isolated in stages will really hamper this feedback; will there later be a feedback stage with all classes enabled and multiclass can be addressed?

[Qezuzu]

http://i.imgur.com/eMBVsri.gif

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

One of the most important aspects of the Enhancement system is how they will interact in various multiclass builds - both today's builds, and new builds based on the changes. Keeping them isolated in stages will really hamper this feedback; will there later be a feedback stage with all classes enabled and multiclass can be addressed?

Yes later this year there will be a 'free for all' phase.

[whereispowderedsilve]

HALLELUJAH!!!HALLELUJAH!!!HALLELUJAH!!!HALLELUJAH! !!HALLELUJAH!!!

Finally something! that is anything! YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!! wooooohoooooooo!

wheeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!! :P! :)!

[Thalmor]

And so it begins........

[Failedlegend]

Why is tommorow so far away :( Thanks for the announcement Squeek and thx for the clairification on "free for all" phase Major

[Untitled]

Awesome news! I am very excited to see what you have in store for us! :)

[SableShadow]

Yes later this year there will be a 'free for all' phase.

Time t'oil up the cabbage pit!


While Racial Enhancement Trees will be available for the entire time,

Nifty! :)



Keep in mind that this is an EARLY PREVIEW! There will be bugs!

I had a whole evil thing for this, but my heart wasn't in it.
Thanks, Squeak! :)

[Failedlegend]

Time t'oil up the cabbage pit!

Heh good thing the class forums are getting split up again because my god the builds that will come flying out when this hits live :D

[sebastianosmith]

Yes later this year there will be a 'free for all' phase.

Sweet!

I understand the phased roll-out; fewer variables means better exception isolation. Testing these things must be an arduous task. I do not envy your position.

[Ape_Man]

Did you ever fix Character copy?

[emptysands]

Does this mean a character reset?

[Ape_Man]

And can we get a Text preview now for the stuff we'll see tomorrow?

[Alavatar]

Will the character transfer do-hicky allow us to transfer over all characters we wish to preview and stuff? I thought we were limited to 5 or transfers or something.

[Terebinthia]

I think it would be great if you could provide a text preview of everything as it stands now - get people chewing over it and so forth.

In the meantime I guess I will go sort out the Lama client the LOTRO distro a while back broke :)

[AlteredState]

Silly question. Does the order that they are available in have anything to do with their level of readiness?

[Gratch]

Please buff WARFORGED JUGGERNAUT CHARGE so it can knock down size L creatures.
Also please nerf HALFLING UPPERCUT TO THE MAW so halflings have to at least two-shot raid bosses.

Sorry... just getting ready to see a race other than Half Elf that's worth taking.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

****... So tempting to miss work tomorrow... If only my dad didnt work there too...

Also, will the guide be available for this? Or maybe a stupidly high xp modifier, similar to he artificer testing, in order to test enhancements AS we level?

[Vazok1]

Feel free to put out the text write-up before the servers go live, saaay 11 your time, should be JUST in time for my break at work then.

Y'no... just puttin it out there... (hey today would be even better but im not hopeful for that :p )

Thanks for getting this out. hopefully we can make big strides in the over-all balance of the game and/or certain classes over the coming weeks.
I do hope the first group of classes coming out will have a chance for a second look over as it will take us, the community, a week or two to get a general feel of the power level the enhancements are intended to provide and how much of a influence it will have on other character choices which i believe will cause a discrepancy in the early feedback when compared to later weeks.

[Missing_Minds]

And so it begins........

There is a hole in your mind.

[Vazok1]

There is a hole in your mind.

or does he have a .... missing mind?






sorry... i'll go now.

[Kilbar]

There is a hole in your mind.

What do you want?

[EllisDee37]

This will make it tough to test out my personal builds, since the only one where the entire build is represented at once (Wizard/Rogue) happens to be a build where I would never spend any AP on the splash class tree anyway. (Maybe just 1 point if I ended up at 79.)

I will certainly make do, though! I eagerly anticipate doing extensive wiki updating, heh.

[Hendrik]

Surveys??!!!


That's new!



I like the way that sounds. This an attempt to get more directed feedback vs wading thru the mess that is the Llama forums?

Good call on the surveys.

[Charononus]

There is a hole in your mind.

If you go to Z'ha'dum you will die.

[IronClan]

Heh good thing the class forums are getting split up again because my god the builds that will come flying out when this hits live :D

Wha? When did that happen? Did that last thread convince Cordovan that reader/poster quality of life is more important than Google stats?

[Auran82]

Wha? When did that happen? Did that last thread convince Cordovan that reader/poster quality of life is more important than Google stats?

They are doing it when they kill MyDDO, blogs, the API that makes sites like YourDDO work as well as removing negative reputation (so there is only positive rep)

[Henky]

Please, allocate The Guide in market, near trainers so we dont have to run between them all the time.

[SqueakofDoom]

The Guide has also found a home. I think you will like it!

[Gratch]

So guessing by the length of this preview time, fixes and the lessons learned from ED buggy launch that the enhancements are moreso targeted at the expansion (U19?) and this stuff wont hold up U18 content/fixes?

What kind of content is in U18 btw? hunh? what's cookin on the current release burner?

[Gkar]

And so it begins........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qYbVQu7YAQ

[Gkar]

What do you want?

Who are you?
Why are you here?
Where are you going?

[Kallith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qybvqu7yaq

+1

[irnimnode]

this is great news am excited to see how it will help out each class but i also have been wondering will it hinder some multi class toon? And thanks for the headsup Squeaks i will be there to learn more.

[Nibor]

So guessing by the length of this preview time, fixes and the lessons learned from ED buggy launch that the enhancements are moreso targeted at the expansion (U19?) and this stuff wont hold up U18 content/fixes?

What kind of content is in U18 btw? hunh? what's cookin on the current release burner?

I'd be surprised if it made the expansion - from the nebulous wordings we've gotten earlier this year I'm guessing it will not be ready until after the expansion.

[Seikojin]

Yes later this year there will be a 'free for all' phase.

Best response EV4R!

[Seikojin]

The Guide has also found a home. I think you will like it!

Then you had to trump the awesome 'free for all' phase comment. LOLSOME!

[bhgiant]

finally! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLTZctTG6cE)

[Failedlegend]

Lamannia will be coming down for an update on April 11 between 10am and 2pm EST (GMT -5).

Great the day it gets released I have warning of huge amount of freezing rain and hail that is likely to cause power outs :(


Racial Enhancement Trees will be available for the entire time, Class Enhancements will be distributed throughout the weeks as follows:

Can't wait to see what the racial prestiges look like Warforged Juggernaut, Dwarven Runesmith or Defender, Halfling Talentia Rider :)




Artificer

Hoping to see something that furthers the initial effects of construct essence even if it's a pretiges like Self-Forged


Cleric

Not really my cup of tea but I can hope domains and war-priest are included might convince me to play one


Fighter

Hoping PDK can bring something different to this class thatmakes it more than a easy way to get more feats.


Ranger

Really looking forward to see what was done with deepwood sniper as out of all 3 PrEs this one most closely resembles my personal view of rangers




Rogue

Not really sure what to expect from rogue but hoping mechanic got a nice rework


Sorcerer
Wizard

Ah my favorite classes cannot wait to see AotS although I'm a little worried something might be changed for PMs that destorys my Arcane knight but thats prob just paranoia




Barbarian

Another class that I've never really jived with, hoping to see Occult Slayer though


Monk

My Acromonk is looking forward to seeing what kind of synergy I can eek out of Henshin Mystic


Paladin

Ah the poor poor paladin hopefully these Prestiges go a good size rework done

[Violith]

Yes later this year there will be a 'free for all' phase.

later this year as in sometime in may after the 'early preview', or after the expansion which is set for summer? it was already stated that there would be an extended lam visit for the enhancement pass but I still hoped it'd make it in for the expansion, but gotta admit that it doesnt seem likely with the wording... is it even a definite that it will be finished this year?

[gphysalis]

****... So tempting to miss work tomorrow... If only my dad didnt work there too...

If you convinced your dad to play ddo...


Feel free to put out the text write-up before the servers go live

I also would love to see the descriptions before the servers come up.

[Qezuzu]

later this year as in sometime in may after the 'early preview', or after the expansion which is set for summer? it was already stated that there would be an extended lam visit for the enhancement pass but I still hoped it'd make it in for the expansion, but gotta admit that it doesnt seem likely with the wording... is it even a definite that it will be finished this year?

I'd rather they have it on Lamannia for months than release buggy enhancement.

Unlike EDs, bugged enhancements would ruin a lot of characters.

[emptysands]

Lamannia will be coming down for an update on April 11 between 10am and 2pm EST (GMT -5).

This Update will contain an Early Preview of Enhancements on Lamannia. For the next three weeks, you, the players, will have the opportunity to get an early look at our upcoming Enhancements revamp. While Racial Enhancement Trees will be available for the entire time, Class Enhancements will be distributed throughout the weeks as follows:


Do these include the "new" racial PrEs? Or only existing racial PrEs?

Will existing and new PrEs be fleshed out to tier 3 or whatever the new max (rank 5) tier?

How will items like TOD set interact with the new system?

[BananaHat]

Very excited to test and give feedback, looks like I'll have characters available to test each week. Artificer, favored soul, wizard, and monk are my main characters. I have a cleric that was shelved once I made the favored soul, but I'm hoping the enhancement pass will revitalize that character as well as my interest in my almost 20 bard and a slew of other lobbies (rogue, barbarian, and fighter)

What I expect to happen is that they will take our feedback from each week and tweak stuff while the others are up for testing. Hopefully, we then get a second focused pass where we check out all the changes and then we get to look at them all together where everyone can see how multiclass builds fit once they've tweaked for single class builds. Then, they'll need another free for all based on that. After that, who knows, more bug squashing and tweaking iterations?

[Phemt81]

I'd rather they have it on Lamannia for months than release buggy enhancement.

Unlike EDs, bugged enhancements would ruin a lot of characters.

I am sure developers are aware that highly bugged enhancements could lead to an unplayable game and they won't release them until 100% sure they work 1000% as intended.

That's why this feature is taking so long and will have to wait some more months in my opinion.

Said that, you did a good thing reminding that to us all :D

[EllisDee37]

My ignorant assumption is that anything that goes on lammania is pretty much part of the next update/patch/hotfix. Meaning U18 would include the enhancement pass.

[Violith]

I'd rather they have it on Lamannia for months than release buggy enhancement.

Unlike EDs, bugged enhancements would ruin a lot of characters.

I understand that, however they have (or should have) been in development for over a year by now, honestly, currently they shouldnt be as buggy as the ED's were when they were first released since they were in development alot longer


My ignorant assumption is that anything that goes on lammania is pretty much part of the next update/patch/hotfix. Meaning U18 would include the enhancement pass.

well it was already stated that it'd be in lam for the long haul. just didnt say how long, since update 18 isnt hte expansion coming out, I highly doubt it'd be in u18. and now it seems like it'd not be in u19 (? supposed number of the expansion) which is slated for summer... so... more then likely it seems more probably that it'd make it in at u22 or so

[Gratch]

My ignorant assumption is that anything that goes on lammania is pretty much part of the next update/patch/hotfix. Meaning U18 would include the enhancement pass.

There was some devtalk or interview or "words" where they said they'd probably make the enhancement updates run across a few Updates before they go live. So this was cited as an exception to normal testing.

[stricq]

finally! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLTZctTG6cE)

When will we get the Pony mod on Lamannia?

[QuantumFX]

These Class Enhancements will only be available during the weeks specified. During the off weeks, they will be disabled in order to allow us to get more focused feedback.

So, how are we supposed to test out the Racial PrE’s?

[LeoLionxxx]

Do these include the "new" racial PrEs? Or only existing racial PrEs?

Will existing and new PrEs be fleshed out to tier 3 or whatever the new max (rank 5) tier?

How will items like TOD set interact with the new system?

I'm also wondering if the updated Dragonmarks will function correctly with the Epic Chimera's fang - At least, I hope the updated Dragonmarks have hade it into the enhancment pass.

[toaf]

yaa more B5 stuff in forums.

[Antheal]

Yes later this year there will be a 'free for all' phase.

Later this year?

So does that mean we can't even expect the enhancement revamp to go live until next year?

[emptysands]

So, how are we supposed to test out the Racial PrE’s?
See:


While Racial Enhancement Trees will be available for the entire time, Class Enhancements will be distributed throughout the weeks as follows:


Of course, that may not be the racial PrEs. Or since the racial PrE are notional just class PrEs with different preqs, maybe they will only be active for the source-class week indicated. ie. AA = Ranger week.

[ehcsztein]

At least, I hope the updated Dragonmarks have hade it into the enhancment pass.

Me too. My most likely to be broken by the changes build also happens to be a DM Halfling. Really hoping the racial trees have DM info available etc.

[IronClan]

Later this year?

So does that mean we can't even expect the enhancement revamp to go live until next year?

This really needs to be one of those things that's released when it's done, not pushed out by manager types because it's a nice bullet point on the back of an expansion box.

These changes have the potential to screw up a lot of characters that have done some interesting contortions to fit prerequisites for unusual PrE combo's (like my Elven FvS AA), needless to say it needs to be old news by the time it's published or lots of people will be blind sided... a long public beta of sorts is a excellent way to get the news out there and also discover the worst of the "breakage" and either fix it or at least let players of those characters know it's going bye bye.

[Momsboys]

The Guide has also found a home. I think you will like it!

Where? :D

[knightgf]

Where? :D

In the center of the negative energy plane, accessible only by planescaller.

[lucreciacrescent]

Where? :D

By the harbor trainers :)

[Kakashi67]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qYbVQu7YAQ

No.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_gst-Ryh3g

[Jay203]

imma download lamania just for this >_>

[Syrophir]

Would been nice if the character that has the listed classes actualy was able to be copied there to test within the time given..

[Taojeff]

Would been nice if the character that has the listed classes actualy was able to be copied there to test within the time given..

It is true. I have 3 failed attempts. My main 3 characters basically. Thankfully I had copied over a character or two a while back. I basically have to tr one character multiple times to try out different class enhancements. This does not bode well for getting alot of people involved in testing.

I would recommend just testing to see if old enhancements translate Thursday, and then do a wipe on Friday to fix whatever ails the character copy (unless u cant fix it then dont try till you can to a reasonable degree). It is my understanding that characters fail to copy due to differences in builds that have not been addressed yet (not character builds).

[Henky]

The Guide has also found a home. I think you will like it!
Thx :)

By the harbor trainers :)
With Kruz and the fatespinner :)

What we need now is a raid loot giver :D

[Blayster]

And me, being silly, without being able to install Lammania on Linux...
I'll be counting on you, community, for massive screenshots!

[Thrudh]

Me too. My most likely to be broken by the changes build also happens to be a DM Halfling. Really hoping the racial trees have DM info available etc.

My oldest and favorite active character is a halfling with the healing dragonmarks... He's been TRed numerous times with different classes, but he's always been a halfling, and he's always had the dragonmarks...

I really really hope they give halflings some love... Halfling dragonmarks cost a LOT and aren't worth much in epics... I've been holding on for more than a year hoping to see what this enhancement pass looks like...

[Failedlegend]

Would been nice if the character that has the listed classes actualy was able to be copied there to test within the time given..

Does it really matter anymore with "The Guide" you can create any character of any level and actually since classes are limited it's my understanding we won't be able to play anyone characters with classes other than that weeks specified classes....poor multi-classes


My oldest and favorite active character is a halfling with the healing dragonmarks... He's been TRed numerous times with different classes, but he's always been a halfling, and he's always had the dragonmarks...

I really really hope they give halflings some love... Halfling dragonmarks cost a LOT and aren't worth much in epics... I've been holding on for more than a year hoping to see what this enhancement pass looks like...

Last we heard DMs were being reduced to one feat and becoming part of the racial enhancements hopefully we get to see that today (I'll be using the guide to slowly level and test a halfling artificer so i'll report back)

[Blayster]

Last we heard DMs were being reduced to one feat and becoming part of the racial enhancements hopefully we get to see that today (I'll be using the guide to slowly level and test a halfling artificer so i'll report back)
I'll beg someone to tell me what happens with Chimera's Crown and Chimera's Fang in that case, when the changes hit Lammania!

[fco-karatekid]

I am sure developers are aware that highly bugged enhancements could lead to an unplayable game...

Have any evidence to back this up?

[IronClan]

10:01 screen shots people! Just kidding, hoping someone will throw some screens up for those of us without a lam client or time to test.

[Matuse]

Week 1 (April 11 – 17):

Artificer
Cleric
Fighter
Ranger

Week 2 (April 18 – 24):

Druid
Favored Soul
Rogue
Sorcerer
Wizard

Week 3 (April 25 – May 1):

Barbarian
Bard
Monk
Paladin

Squeak/Maj-

One of the big concerns about the enhancement makeover has been about the effect it will have on multiclass characters. If a given character has classes in two different pools, how exactly is any workable testing going to take place?

[Grosbeak07]

Would been nice if the character that has the listed classes actualy was able to be copied there to test within the time given..

With the guide you can make a multiple life TR in a couple of days.

Even if you don't have a character to transfer, its super easy to level up now.

[emtp]

My main is a clonk Who really hasnt been used as much snice the combat canges came out. I was really looking to see how this will effect him. He is a 17/2/1 Cleric monk rouge I would think as there are lots of clonks atleast the monk and cleric classes would be together.

[geoffhanna]

Release notes? Please?

[Syrophir]

Yeah, it might not be the end of the world just yet thanks to The Guide, though some loot would help, it's not all in the AH. ^^'

Edit: The Test Dojo saves the day! ^^

[Infant]

I think it would be great if you could provide a text preview of everything as it stands now - get people chewing over it and so forth.

In the meantime I guess I will go sort out the Lama client the LOTRO distro a while back broke :)

This! We need a text version to plan properly.

[Natashaelle]

When will we get the Pony mod on Lamannia?

Who cares about your silly pony rubbish !!!

I. WANT. my. UNICORN !!!!!! :mad:

[Battlehawke]

...and it begins.

...finally

...is that the sound of Angels singing?

[bhgiant]

...and it begins.

...finally

...is that the sound of Angels singing?

Yes my child, yes it is.

Although which angels we have yet to find out.

Edit: on a side note, my client is now downloading the update :D

[Blayster]

I think it would be great if you could provide a text preview of everything as it stands now - get people chewing over it and so forth.

In the meantime I guess I will go sort out the Lama client the LOTRO distro a while back broke :)
Wondering, have you got Lammania to work under Linux? If so, how come? The installer does not seem to work here (also the installer for DDO, but there is a workaround for that that I've never found for Lammania...)

[Xilth]

Wondering, have you got Lammania to work under Linux? If so, how come? The installer does not seem to work here (also the installer for DDO, but there is a workaround for that that I've never found for Lammania...)

Problem with Lamannia (or normal DDO) and linux is Pando (aplication which is used to download installation files), wine will crash when it trays to use it, but when you have got all installation files... installation works flawlessly... just run setup, change files directory in pyLotro, patch and play.

To install lamannia on linux you need to get game files in some other way then regular download with Pando, like copying files from windows instalation. I made my lamania client to run with little help from VirtualBox (Win XP virtual machine) which i use for other stuff... i just downloaded all files with virtual machine, then i have instaled them with wine the same way as normal DDO.

I realy wish there where other ways then Pando to get installation files... right now to run DDO on linux the hardest part isn't making it run but geting instalation files :(

[Vargouille]

Regarding Toughness enhancements:

We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that the Toughness feat was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability, a feat that all characters start with at level 1. Characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.

[Cap_Man]

Regarding Toughness enhancements:

We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that Toughness was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability, a feat that all characters start with at level 1. Characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.

Ok, I'll bite ;)

How does 'taking out most of the racial toughness enchancements' make it 'more of a choice than before'?

[AlteredState]

Who knows, but I think I get more hp from my class/racial toughness now than I will with the new system. I usally run a human 12fight/6rng/2rog


30-40 from fighter and another 30 from being human. so 60-70 total

Looking at this I would get 20 from the Heroic Durability thing and that is it. Unless I am messing up and am horrifically mistaken.

[IronClan]

Regarding Toughness enhancements:

We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that Toughness was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability, a feat that all characters start with at level 1. Characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.

So I'm confused, how is giving some classes 15 free HP's and taking away elective toughness enhancements "more of a choice"?

I believe that's actually less of a choice?

Also this game really needs less extreme divergences from the PnP source material. I don't know how many of you guys played Neverwinter Nights, but it's so far the best D&D multiplayer video game ever made probably the most successful sales wise and it's also usually cited as the most faithful rules translation ever... These things aren't coincidental.

Many of DDO's biggest problems that were later fixed with kludgy non D&D systems are actually a direct result of poor PnP rules translation, as directly contrasted in NWN. An example: "Zerging" you fixed it with "Dungeon Alert" NWN "fixed it" by having a proper implimentation of "Attacks of Opportunity" so it never needed to "fix it" in the first place. Or how about Two weapon fighting? In DDO the reversed attack progression and incorrectly implemented TWF rules cause it to be too powerful. So instead of correcting the poorly translated rule and making the attack progression correctly descend in hit chance, you made up "Double strike" and nerfed off hand attacks. A good rules translation never has the problem in the first place, and never needs the kludge.

I realize that toughness enhancements are non PnP but they at least fit the flavor of the feat and are sort of an extension of them and are choices that can be made... this 5th 10th 15th thing is just arbitrary. There's no choice to it. Why not just give an extra 1hp per class level... it's the same thing.

[Ovrad]

Ok, I'll bite ;)

How does 'taking out most of the racial toughness enchancements' make it 'more of a choice than before'?

You're looking at it the wrong way. Think of it as you get 20 hp for free now, without absolutely having to take the toughness feat. That means that skipping the feat is more viable now, while tank-ish types can still invest in more hp if they want.

[decease]

ill be surely to buy collector edition again, for next expansion.. if you guys really get this done before/when next expansion release..

[AlteredState]

You're looking at it the wrong way. Think of it as you get 20 hp for free now, without absolutely having to take the toughness feat. That means that skipping the feat is more viable now, while tank-ish types can still invest in more hp if they want.

But they are not talking about the feat, they are talking about the enhancements. Most people would still take the feat anyway as it is cumulative with this bonus(probably).

[Ryiah]

it's so far the best D&D multiplayer video game ever made probably the most successful sales wise and it's also usually cited as the most faithful rules translation ever... These things aren't coincidental.

Neverwinter Nights and DDO are not the same type of game. NWN is a single/multi-player game with up to 64 players (NWN2 at least, no idea about the original). DDO is a massively multiplayer online game with potential for thousands of online players. It also is not one-time sale like NWN2 which relied on selling the base game and expansions. DDO has multiple streams of income.

At this stage in DDO's history you have options somewhere between spending nothing and spending as much as you want. That is a huge difference compared to NWN2 where the only options were to buy the base game and the expansions. No additional sources of income for NWN.



An example: "Zerging" you fixed it with "Dungeon Alert" NWN "fixed it" by having a proper implimentation of "Attacks of Opportunity" so it never needed to "fix it" in the first place.

Do you even understand why "Dungeon Alert" exists? Turbine doesn't actually care if you attempt to zerg a quest for the sake of faster completion. They care because it increases server load. Every time you reach a new enemy in a dungeon it "activates" with regards to the player. Until it is "deactivated" for whatever reason it adds to the server load.

Which would be less of a load do you think? Players handling a few enemies at once? Or handling a dozen or more?



I realize that toughness enhancements are non PnP but they at least fit the flavor of the feat and are sort of an extension of them and are choices that can be made... this 5th 10th 15th thing is just arbitrary.

The concept is that Toughness has become so popular with the player base that it has essentially become mandatory for practically every character. Most of the time when I hear discussions related to it in-game it is one player stating they didn't take it and every other player claiming they made a bad choice.

[Ovrad]

But they are not talking about the feat, they are talking about the enhancements. Most people would still take the feat anyway as it is cumulative with this bonus(probably).

I know, but the enhancements required the feat before. So taken the toughness feat was giving you at least 60 hp total, which was pretty much required for everyone.

Now everyone has higher hp, and taking the feat still gives you a bonus. Certain enhancements still boost you, but it's not available to everyone, which means a lot of builds can invest more in other things instead.

TL,DR: It's less cookie-cutter than before.

[IronClan]

You're looking at it the wrong way. Think of it as you get 20 hp for free now, without absolutely having to take the toughness feat. That means that skipping the feat is more viable now, while tank-ish types can still invest in more hp if they want.

Doesn't that seem like whole lot of power creep?

[Vargouille]

We're planning to simplify Spell Criticals and made them more effective early in the game.

We've removed Spell Critical Damage bonuses in general, but there are still many sources of Spell Critical Chance (including enhancements and items). When you score a critical with a spell, you now deal +100% damage, increased from the old base of +50%. We may introduce some temporary bonuses that increase this to +200% or higher, but we felt that the added complexity of adding 25% here and there wasn't justified.

The Magical Training feat, which most spellcasting classes get at level 1, grants +5% spell critical chance. This means most casters at level 1 have a 5% chance to deal +100% damage.

We have not yet done a pass on items for this change but they will be brought in line with these changes.

[oradafu]

Regarding Toughness enhancements:

We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that the Toughness feat was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability, a feat that all characters start with at level 1. Characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.

So staying pure as a class results in less HP than doing a multi-class split of 10/5/5 or 15/5? Granted, it's only 5 HP and those two splits aren't exactly optimum currently live. We haven't seen all the enhancements (and they aren't concerete yet) so those mutliclass splits might become standard in the future.

[Gimpinator]

We're planning to simplify Spell Criticals and made them more effective early in the game.

We've removed Spell Critical Damage bonuses in general, but there are still may sources of Spell Critical Chance. When you score a critical with a spell, you now deal +100% damage, increased from the old base of +50%. We may introduce some temporary bonuses that increase this to +200% or higher, but we felt that the added complexity of adding 25% here and there wasn't justified.

The Magical Training feat, which most spellcasting classes get at level 1, grants +5% spell critical chance. This means most casters at level 1 have a 5% chance to deal +100% damage.

We have not yet done a pass on items for this change but they will be brought in line with these changes.

I wish you had all the information regarding this change.

[IronClan]

Neverwinter Nights and DDO are not the same type of game. NWN is a single/multi-player game with up to 64 players (NWN2 at least, no idea about the original). DDO is a massively multiplayer online game with potential for thousands of online players.

This is an old argument around here, a persistent world in NWN often had more players playing in the same area concurrently fighting/questing and interacting in dungeons and public areas than DDO... Picking pockets, PvP'ing questing in the same dungeon, having a DM lead event in larger areas often with FAR more than 6 or 12 people. The "massive" part of DDO is a chimera. You and I have literally never fought anything more dangerous than a training dummy with more than 12 people in the instance. But that's besides the point, the combat rules in each game are fundamentally similar and can be contrasted. NWN had real time 3d combat, though it was not as FPS like in the controls, that hardly matters, the great rules translation managed to avoid a bunch of foibles that DDO has made up all sort of silly MMO mechanics to try and deal with.




Do you even understand why "Dungeon Alert" exists? Turbine doesn't actually care if you attempt to zerg a quest for the sake of faster completion. They care because it increases server load.

That is exactly what I think DA was put in for, no idea why you think I don't get that.

The point is that NWN never had the problem, not because you couldn't run past mobs and activate a train of server crippling AI entities (you could)... but because running past mobs generally got you dead very fast, because they got attacks of opportunity on your unprotected back. So very few people tried to do it.



The concept is that Toughness has become so popular with the player base that it has essentially become mandatory for practically every character. Most of the time when I hear discussions related to it in-game it is one player stating they didn't take it and every other player claiming they made a bad choice.

I get the concept, I don't get how giving HP's out at 5th 10th and 15th makes for "choice", it seems like they are changing stuff just for the sake of changing stuff, a phenomenon that is not unheard of in MMO's where the Dev team sees turn over, and each one sometimes feel the need to put their own mark on things. Sometimes changes are good, sometimes they are harsh but needed (Like Dunegon Alert, although attacks of opportunity and a stamina bar would have been a better solution IMO) and sometimes they are arbitrary and inexplicable...

[Tid12]

We're planning to simplify Spell Criticals and made them more effective early in the game.

We've removed Spell Critical Damage bonuses in general, but there are still may sources of Spell Critical Chance. When you score a critical with a spell, you now deal +100% damage, increased from the old base of +50%. We may introduce some temporary bonuses that increase this to +200% or higher, but we felt that the added complexity of adding 25% here and there wasn't justified.

The Magical Training feat, which most spellcasting classes get at level 1, grants +5% spell critical chance. This means most casters at level 1 have a 5% chance to deal +100% damage.

We have not yet done a pass on items for this change but they will be brought in line with these changes.

I don't understand this. On live, the Spell crit damage is 50% base sure, but it can be increased to 125% damage and 9% to actually crit with enhancements.

With what you just said, we will deal +100% damage on crit with no way to increase it through enhancements (-25% from live) and we have just a 5% Spell critical chance (9% on live).

Complexity of adding 25% here and there? What complexity? The previous enhancements were pretty straight-forward.

Couple this change with the Spellcraft skill and we are looking at a serious nerf for every arcane and divines out there. You either buff that critical chance to 20% or you better fix this in some other way. AND NO, WITH "FIX IT" I DON'T MEAN BY GIVING US TEMPORARY BUFFS THAT LAST 2 SECONDS.

[IronClan]

We're planning to simplify Spell Criticals and made them more effective early in the game.

We've removed Spell Critical Damage bonuses in general, but there are still may sources of Spell Critical Chance. When you score a critical with a spell, you now deal +100% damage, increased from the old base of +50%. We may introduce some temporary bonuses that increase this to +200% or higher, but we felt that the added complexity of adding 25% here and there wasn't justified.

The Magical Training feat, which most spellcasting classes get at level 1, grants +5% spell critical chance. This means most casters at level 1 have a 5% chance to deal +100% damage.

We have not yet done a pass on items for this change but they will be brought in line with these changes.

So more less choices? This is starting to sound less like a "pass" and more like a total redesign of character customization.

[Ovrad]

With what you just said, we will deal +100% damage on crit with no way to increase it through enhancements (-25% from live) and we have just a 5% Spell critical chance (9% on live).

He said you start with 5% crit chance and it will still be able to upgrade it through items (and enhancements?). The crit damage is the ones that seems nerfed, but crit chance are buffed from what I understand.

[Tid12]

He said you start with 5% crit chance and it will still be able to upgrade it through items. The crit damage is the ones that seems nerfed, but crit chance are buffed from what I understand.

How can it be buffed? Eg: Elec spells

On lama: You start at 5% WITH NO WAY TO INCREASE IT WITH ENHANCEMENTS and use a Superior Elec lore for another 12% = total 17%

On live: You start a 4% (Tier I of Sorcerer Charged Spellcasting I), you can increase it to 9% with Sorcerer Charged Spellcasting VI (Grants a 9% chance for electric and sonic spells to generate a critical hit) + Superior Elec lore for another 12% = total 21%.

Lama: 17% chance to crit with YOUR ELEMENT SPELL.
Live: 21% chance.

Damage multipliers:

On lama: +100% from level 1, no way to increase it.
On Live: +50% at level 1, +125% through enhancements.

We are already at: -25% damage multipliers, -4% crit chance.


Add in:

Spellcraft skill: 23 ranks + 4 GH + 30 Mod of INT for wizzies (70 INT lol)/10 Mod for Sorcerers (30 Int, unlikely also) + 6 Exceptional INT Skills + 20 Spellcraft skill item (we have no idea if this will be in game or not) =

83 Spell power for Wizards
63 Spell power for Sorcerers

vs

100 Spell power for element of our choices in live, a net 37 Spell power loss for Sorcerers, the "arcanes" that is supposed to deal damage, less than wizards, the "versatile arcane".

[Ovrad]

Well I have not seen the new enhancements for wiz and sorc, have you? Also, the %bonus from items might have changed.

[IronClan]

He said you start with 5% crit chance and it will still be able to upgrade it through items (and enhancements?). The crit damage is the ones that seems nerfed, but crit chance are buffed from what I understand.

That's not what I got, but it's early, I'd like to say it's too early but I remember when they previewed armor cosmetics and lots of people thought it was a horrible way to do it and not nearly custom enough and they just went right ahead and put it in that way.

As I understand it the intent is to boost LOW LEVEL crits right off the bat, but the enhancement lines are going completely away. With items to be adjusted later.

The sound of the "temporary bonuses" has me thinking they're moving a lot of abilities toward the "burst damage" and "epic moment counter" long cool down paradigm.

I hope not, I can't stand long cool down momentary abilities... They ruin game play for me, replacing the feeling of character power with the feeling of cool down management and "overseer of counters".

I don't want to babysit counter increments and cool downs. There's already too much of that in the ED's. The game has too many clickies already.

[Tid12]

Well I have not seen the new enhancements for wiz and sorc, have you? Also, the %bonus from items might have changed.

Meh, I've seen the new stuff and I talk about the new stuff. Your excuse is pretty weak. There is no reason to believe the %bonus from items might have changed.

IF they have changed them, we are still looking at a pretty serious nerf. Regardless of the new items bonus, our enhancements that before granted 9% Spell crit chance and +125% crit Damage enhancements are now only granting 5% and 100% respectively.

And it is not a small nerf. It's a pretty big one. And it's a FACT since Vargouille stated that these bonuses WON'T BE in the new enhancements.

We might as well have +Spell power in our trees but we are also looking a nerf here. Saying I can get up to +50 Spell power, like the Cleric Class tree, based on my previous math:



Spellcraft skill: 23 ranks + 4 GH + 30 Mod of INT for wizzies (70 INT lol)/10 Mod for Sorcerers (30 Int, unlikely also) + 6 Exceptional INT Skills + 20 Spellcraft skill item (we have no idea if this will be in game or not) =

83 Spell power for Wizards
63 Spell power for Sorcerers


+50 Spell power = 133 for wizzies, 113 for Sorcerers. This IF and only IF there will be a +20 Spellcraft skill item and with absurd INT requirements. Most likely, we will end up with ~80 on a wiz and ~50 for a Sorc.

INT on a Sorc:

18 Base (LOL, never going to happen)
+8 Item
+3 Insight :rolleyes:
+1 Exceptional
+4 Tome
---------------------
+34 (+12)

with a STARTING INT OF 18, ON A SORC. Drop it to 12 starting, +7 item, +2 Insight, more reasonable that's 26 Int (+8 Mod).

vs the 100 we have now with enhancements.

[Ovrad]

And it is not a small nerf. It's a pretty big one. And it's a FACT since Vargouille stated that these bonuses WON'T BE in the new enhancements.

You sure about that?


We've removed Spell Critical Damage bonuses in general, but there are still may sources of Spell Critical Chance.

[Tid12]

You sure about that?

Adding more items for an increased bonus != getting them in the enhancement trees. Of course we are getting more sources of Spell Critical chance: our level will be raised to 28 when this hits live. But it is NOT the same thing. We should keep our 9% - 125% damage AND the increased bonuses in the items.

This is like the nerf of Healing spells: nerf them to buff them with items ML28, it just makes me lol. The difference is that while a heal spell will top off pretty much everyone even after the serious nerf, the arcanes and divines will be far far behind melees in DPS output than they are already.

They should have left it alone, buff it or actually be more precise. Right now, this is a big nerf to every arcane and divine out there.

Also, as I cannot be sure, you can't either. I believe in what I see, not in what's coming in the future, and what WE see now is a nerf.

[Ovrad]

Also, as I cannot be sure, you can't either. I believe in what I see, not in what's coming in the future, and what WE see now is a nerf.

You are right, I can't be sure either. But you seem to assume that all bonuses are gone from enhancements trees. I have not seen any confirmation of that yet; if you have, please point it out.

[RD2play]

The "dance of death" final ability in the tempest tree from ranger cant be maxed, it can only have tier 1 due to prereq not being able to meet the 3 tiers it has. prereq has only 1 tier

[Charononus]

The "dance of death" final ability in the tempest tree from ranger cant be maxed, it can only have tier 1 due to prereq not being able to meet the 3 tiers it has. prereq has only 1 tier

I can't even change to tempest, where tempest should be it says invalid and loads a blank template.

[Tid12]

You are right, I can't be sure either. But you seem to assume that all bonuses are gone from enhancements trees. I have not seen any confirmation of that yet; if you have, please point it out.

This is what I got from what Vargouille said.

Either he needs to clarify himself that so I can shut up or I'll keep thinking that he meant that there won't be any Spell crit chance/damage in the enhancements.

[Azara]

Probably going to get flamed for part of this post, but oh well!

1 - I love the new enhancement trees! They are WAY more appealing than the old interface!

2 - What I didn't love was the lack of response to questions. In the course of an hour, I asked the same question 20 DIFFERENT TIMES and still got NO ANSWER!

Sure, Kookie finally asked what my question was AFTER I had already stated that I'd rather play Neverwinter where questions ACTUALLY get answered, but by that time I was already disgusted and ready to log off! Way to help others guys (I hope the OOZING sarcasm is apparent)!

[EllisDee37]

Magical Training now grants 5% spell crit.

[Aussir]

Magical Training now grants 5% spell crit.
Craptastic, I need to toss 1 feat to get it.... because we're all fighters swimming in feats, right?

I only have this to say... you people whined and whined and whined... you reap what you sow. Have fun killing this game. :mad:

[TreknaQudane]

We're planning to simplify Spell Criticals and made them more effective early in the game.

We've removed Spell Critical Damage bonuses in general, but there are still may sources of Spell Critical Chance. When you score a critical with a spell, you now deal +100% damage, increased from the old base of +50%. We may introduce some temporary bonuses that increase this to +200% or higher, but we felt that the added complexity of adding 25% here and there wasn't justified.

The Magical Training feat, which most spellcasting classes get at level 1, grants +5% spell critical chance. This means most casters at level 1 have a 5% chance to deal +100% damage.

We have not yet done a pass on items for this change but they will be brought in line with these changes.

If only DnD had a rule for allowing spells to critical that was akin to the way attacks were calculated but adjusted for non-attack heavy classes. Maybe if your attack only had to touch the target be it melee or ranged.

[Vargouille]

Craptastic, I need to toss 1 feat to get it.... because we're all fighters swimming in feats, right?

You already have Magical Training if you are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, or Artificer.

EDIT: For those asking about Bards, the magic ball says to ask again later. Specifically at all ranks of Spellsinger Tier 1 abilities in two weeks. We have a pretty useful magic ball here.

[SableShadow]

You already have Magical Training if you are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, or Artificer.

I'm beginning to think y'all thought a bit before you put this out.
Shhhhh! I promise not to tell anyone. :)

[TreknaQudane]

You already have Magical Training if you are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, or Artificer.

Bards should get Magical Training. They are much of a 'caster' as Artificers are traditionally.

[NytCrawlr]

I'm beginning to think y'all thought a bit before you put this out.
Shhhhh! I promise not to tell anyone. :)

Yes. Couple changes I am not liking (think I am missing something though).

Overall though this is a step in the right direction.

[Aussir]

You already have Magical Training if you are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, or Artificer.
The way this was worded, sounded as if we had to take it even on those classes. I stand corrected.

I do have one question as I'm being unable to get into Lammania. It concerns the trees.

Let's say you have a 14 ranger/6 fighter. Since we only can have 3 trees active and, from the little I can see, have to waste a bunch of AP's on unnecessary things, how does this bode for someone who gets the kensai?
Or for someone who takes 3 classes... how is this going to work when you can only have 3 trees active?

Depending on how the enhancements are distributed among trees, it may completely kill multi-class and a lot of builds. I personally don't consider this a good thing to do.

I'm sure that the Devs are seeing all the outrage at the pigeon-holing done in NWO... please don't force this on us as well or we might as well just move to NWO. :(

[Matuse]

How does 'taking out most of the racial toughness enchancements' make it 'more of a choice than before'?

Since what were the racial toughness enhancements are given automatically, you can now spend those AP on other things.


Craptastic, I need to toss 1 feat to get it.... because we're all fighters swimming in feats, right?

Magical Training is automatic at level 1 for almost all blue bar classes.


On lama: You start at 5% WITH NO WAY TO INCREASE IT WITH ENHANCEMENTS and use a Superior Elec lore for another 12% = total 17%

On live: You start a 4% (Tier I of Sorcerer Charged Spellcasting I), you can increase it to 9% with Sorcerer Charged Spellcasting VI (Grants a 9% chance for electric and sonic spells to generate a critical hit) + Superior Elec lore for another 12% = total 21%.

On Live, you spend 10 AP to get that 9% crit and 105% crit damage, where on Lama, you spend 0 AP to get 5% crit and 100% crit damage.

You think you could find somewhere to invest 10 AP? I can...REALLY easily.

[Ganolyn]

You already have Magical Training if you are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, or Artificer.

Yes, but if I am understanding correctly, I now enjoy a 9% chance to crit (+ Lore item) with the live enhancements and with this new system I will have 5% chance to crit (+ Lore item) unless I have feats to spend?

[Scraap]

Overall thoughts:
It is clearer what you're getting, so that's a plus.

The points-spent-in-tree tiers seem more than a bit high for folks looking for versatility, be that in 2-3 pure-class trees+racial, or potentially multiclassing, and the 2 points per for both initial and upgrade costs adds up to a feeling of heavy restriction at first blush.

I'd cut the top-end racial requirements down to 10 points spent in tree, the non-core class requirements down to 25-30, keep the initial 2 point costs and make the upgrades for purchased abilities 1 point per (For a lot of this stuff, that'll mean going from 6 ap total to 4, so it's mostly nickel and dimeing your way to a bit of breathing room). Particularly if you're going to be sticking with requiring ap expenditure on core skills (What were initially referenced as 'auto-grants'.)

[Vargouille]

New enhancements include spell critical chance improvements. One form these can take is in the Healing tree on Lamannia right now, and has already had quite a bit of discussion.

[Ganolyn]

New enhancements include spell critical chance improvements. One form these can take is in the Healing tree on Lamannia right now, and has already had quite a bit of discussion.

Well good then because others have been reporting that all crit enhancers were taken out.

[SealedInSong]

New enhancements include spell critical chance improvements. One form these can take is in the Healing tree on Lamannia right now, and has already had quite a bit of discussion.

Any chance we can get a preview clarification on what might happen to spell lore on items?

Based off the quotes I'm seeing people post, you seem to be saying that there's an attempted global increase in critical chances for spellcasters (though not necessarily bards, paladins, or rangers who are not autogranted magical training) at level 1, and items will be "adjusted" to reflect this.

Does this mean we can expect our lore items to be less effective to compensate for greater auto-granted spell lore from level 1?

[EllisDee37]

I do have one question as I'm being unable to get into Lammania. It concerns the trees.

Let's say you have a 14 ranger/6 fighter. Since we only can have 3 trees active and, from the little I can see, have to waste a bunch of AP's on unnecessary things, how does this bode for someone who gets the kensai?
Or for someone who takes 3 classes... how is this going to work when you can only have 3 trees active?Extremely poorly. This first preview makes it crystal clear that the devs want everyone to be a pure class, and they want those pure classes to play in rigidly defined roles.

As an example, clerics are essentially healbots. Kiss your dc casting goodbye. (They removed friggin' spell pen enhancements from clerics. If that doesn't say "shut up and heal" loud and clear, I don't know what would.)

Did you want to play a self-sufficient melee who self-heals via bluebar? Kiss those builds goodbye too. No devotion lines for you, and the healing amp line is inexplicably doubled in cost beyond tier 1.

[seebs]

Problem with Lamannia (or normal DDO) and linux is Pando (aplication which is used to download installation files), wine will crash when it trays to use it, but when you have got all installation files... installation works flawlessly... just run setup, change files directory in pyLotro, patch and play.

To install lamannia on linux you need to get game files in some other way then regular download with Pando, like copying files from windows instalation. I made my lamania client to run with little help from VirtualBox (Win XP virtual machine) which i use for other stuff... i just downloaded all files with virtual machine, then i have instaled them with wine the same way as normal DDO.

I realy wish there where other ways then Pando to get installation files... right now to run DDO on linux the hardest part isn't making it run but geting instalation files :(

There was a switch away from Pando to something called "Happy Cloud" at one point. I can find no evidence of this now, and I can't find the installer, but I note that I've been unable to get Pando to load the game for a while now, but the old copy of the Happy Cloud installer I found on another machine worked fine.

[Aussir]

Extremely poorly. This first preview makes it crystal clear that the devs want everyone to be a pure class, and they want those pure classes to play in rigidly defined roles.

As an example, clerics are essentially healbots. Kiss your dc casting goodbye. (They removed friggin' spell pen enhancements from clerics. If that doesn't say "shut up and heal" loud and clear, I don't know what would.)

Did you want to play a self-sufficient melee who self-heals via bluebar? Kiss those builds goodbye too. No devotion lines for you, and the healing amp line is inexplicably doubled in cost beyond tier 1.
I was afraid of this... if this is the way things are going, I might as well go play NWO... and that's saying something.

I surely hope the devs give up this madness, listen to us and change things or they risk having a very dead game... :(

[blerkington]

I was afraid of this... if this is the way things are going, I might as well go play NWO... and that's saying something.

I surely hope the devs give up this madness, listen to us and change things or they risk having a very dead game... :(

Hi,

Yes, it looks like one of the things that make this game attractive to me, and better than its competitors, is about to be badly broken. We'll see, I suppose.

Thanks.

[Aashrym]

You already have Magical Training if you are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, or Artificer.

Yeah, but spell casting is a major component for many bards and they are left out again on a caster bonus. You really need to reconsider your approach to bards instead of repeatedly omitting them from caster benefits because you insist on tying benefits to that one feat.

[Theolin]

thoughts....

I like

What I have seen of more choices in some of the trees to pick how to apply the ehancement: example arti's choice of melee or range
Some of the innate casting like enhancements


I do NOT like not even a little bit

Spell power changes
Death of the multi class out of the box builds or even a char that can do 2 things within just one class .... you are now stuck mostly doing just one job .... gee thanks

[CaptainSpacePony]

I'm afraid I've failed several attempts at downloading the client, so my initial feedback is based on what I can see on the forums.

Big thanks to those that listed out the enhancements in the approp threads. As of this writing, about half of the new trees were listed out.

Overall I really like the way this is going. Great concept and execution!

Specifically, well LOTS of adjustments need to be made. The trees do not seem well balanced.

The new 5 hp at various class levels seems odd. The simpler character level idea seems more elegant.

[Xilth]

There was a switch away from Pando to something called "Happy Cloud" at one point. I can find no evidence of this now, and I can't find the installer, but I note that I've been unable to get Pando to load the game for a while now, but the old copy of the Happy Cloud installer I found on another machine worked fine.


It could be possible that it is switched... but even if it switched (for me) still installer crashes at downloading files (i have tried to run it few seconds ago). For "normal" DDO it isn't big deal because instalation files for DDO are also hosted on AtomicGamer site, which is notend in most linux guides... but i couldn't find anywhere files for Lamannia... i had to get them in some other way to install it...

[oradafu]

You already have Magical Training if you are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, or Artificer.

I have to agree with others with the exclusion of Bards getting Magical Training. If you don't want Bards to get Magical Training at level 1, give it to Bards at a higher level, like level 5. Especially if a 5% Spell Critical is attached to it now.

I'd even suggest that Paladins and Rangers getting the feat for free at higher levels, such as level 10 or so.

I'd still leave the Magical Training feat as purchasable or other classes though. This would allow non-blue bar Elves and Half-elves access to Arcane Archers. It would also leave open all non-Bluebars that want to play with certain EDs (mostly the caster ones) more resources to use those Destinies, if they wanted.

[Xilth]

Yeah, but spell casting is a major component for many bards and they are left out again on a caster bonus. You really need to reconsider your approach to bards instead of repeatedly omitting them from caster benefits because you insist on tying benefits to that one feat.

i think the same, removing from bards 5% crit is big hit for any bard and even biger for spell singers... cure spells and greater shout already where not so good but know they won't even have crits? also with this change it pointles to give to bards any new spells or anything which is around spellcasting, no one will use them, dps and cure spells with no chance to crit and lower spell power then other caster? this would be realy bad joke...

[lucreciacrescent]

@devs: so after three weeks of testing (all classes) the enhancement pass preview will be returned to normal, how long till you put back the newer enhancement pass permanently on lamannia?

[oradafu]

@devs: so after three weeks of testing (all classes) the enhancement pass preview will be returned to normal, how long till you put back the newer enhancement pass permanently on lamannia?

Hopefully the following happens:
1) After the next 3 weeks, the Devs take our input, analyzes it and includes some of it.
2) After an unspecified amount of time, Update 18 will be posted on Lamannia.
3) After the preview, Update 18 is then posted on Live.
4) Most likely one (but maybe two) patches for Update 18 are put on Lamannia.
5) After those patches are put on live, the Enhancement Pass Preview 2 will be put on Lamannia for a week or two so players can add input again.
6) After some more Lamannia downtime, Update 19 (probably the Expansion) will be posted on Lamannia including Enhancement Pass Preview 3.
7) After players input, the Enhancement will be cleaned up along with the rest of the Update will be posted to live, with patches to follow.

Unfortunately, I think we'll get:
1) Devs take our ideas and criticisms and include some in the Enhancements.
2) Update 18 will be posted on Lamannia with the Enhancement Pass Preview.
3) Devs will say that they have no time to include further feedback on the Enhancements.
4) Update 18 and the Enhancements go live, with players not feeling like their input was fully included. (Granted, it could ahppen in the first example also, but at least another whack at the ball after including our input would cutdown on many of the complaints.)

[red_cardinal]

@devs

Almost all things are just a repositioning of the enhancements that are on Live. There are to few new things.
I'd suggest you modify static values on trapsmithing and make sure this gameplay crafting and playing concept works all the way to EE at level 28 in terms of DCs and damage. Two trees should heavily impact those - mechanic and arcanotechnician. Same goes for values on Trap the soul spell - remove 3 versions of it and let it scale by caster level and benefit from feat and enhancement DCs. I'm only stating that here since it's used to gather some ingredients.

Also, it would be nice to see artificers to conjure wands and apply different bonuses to caster levels and damage and DCs in the trees from tier 1 to tier 5.

Arcane archer arrows should be conjured in stacks. A certain active ability should conjure a stack of 1000 arrows and cost 30 spell points or so. Imbues are just a cheap workaround and not really a change at all. DCs should also apply as well as favorite enemy bonuses. This might put Cannith crafting behind, but since arrows are bound to character and could only be conjured in an instance - what's stopping you from doing it that way? All is still in alpha, right? :P

Deepwood stalker is anything but a stalker. When an ability is used, it shouldn't break stealth - at least not for ranged shots. What's the point in investing into hide+move silently if the shots break stealth?

Ranger summon CR should at least be equal to ranger level-spell level. It such a bummer to see a level 20 ranger get a CR 4 kitty.

Some feats still need adjusting: slicing blow - let the bleed effect scale with level or add STR/DEX bonus to it. You didn't change feats at all. Some rogue feats could also use a revamp.

Introduce new feats: improved stunning blow, improved power attack, etc. so tempests or other melee builds can use them and benefit from enhancements.

Regular crossbows and great crossbow should be doing nearly as much as repeaters do in a 10 seconds against a static target. Nerf repeaters since nobody is using regular crossbows. This way you might have somebody actually craft an alchemical light crossbow :P.

Summoned monsters should get a CR increase from certain enhancements also. This would go to all classes and specific trees where summons are involved.

Remove character paths completely from the game menu.

[Tid12]

New enhancements include spell critical chance improvements. One form these can take is in the Healing tree on Lamannia right now, and has already had quite a bit of discussion.

Are they included in the arcane trees? How much improvement are we talking about? I hope we gain at least 4% with enhancement, to get again the 9% we have on live.

What about Spell critical damage? 100% on lama vs 125% on live. Same question as above.

[BOgre]

On first blush I was pretty excited by what I was seeing in the Ranger trees. But after spending the 80AP over and over and over trying to re-build a versatile Tempest I started to get worried. Now, after looking at the Cleric and Fighter lines, I'm downright depressed. I'm just not sure ANY of my multiclass characters have a hope of surviving in the new system. I'm pretty sure I don't like where the game is heading.

[legendlore]

We're planning to simplify Spell Criticals and made them more effective early in the game.

We've removed Spell Critical Damage bonuses in general, but there are still many sources of Spell Critical Chance (including enhancements and items). When you score a critical with a spell, you now deal +100% damage, increased from the old base of +50%. We may introduce some temporary bonuses that increase this to +200% or higher, but we felt that the added complexity of adding 25% here and there wasn't justified.

The Magical Training feat, which most spellcasting classes get at level 1, grants +5% spell critical chance. This means most casters at level 1 have a 5% chance to deal +100% damage.

We have not yet done a pass on items for this change but they will be brought in line with these changes.


You already have Magical Training if you are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, or Artificer.

Bards really need to be added to this list.

I really can't see how you can add another exotic weapon feat to artificers (which I like in principle, but it makes a good example) and still ignore bards as a casting class (Spellsingers in particular) by still denying them a feat they should have had ever since it was introduced.

This is now getting really bad, before it meant that bards had less spell points and no free spell point regen, then it meant that caster bards couldn't use new caster gear introduced to the game and now it locks them out of spell criticals and spell power enhancements (such as human versatility for casters).

Bards don't have the luxury of free class feats that artificers and wizards do and really can't afford buying magical training as a standard feat.

[IronClan]

You already have Magical Training if you are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, or Artificer.

So bards which are already the weakest class in the game, are yet even worse, because now they have to take a feat or splash to get 5% of something they used to get 9% of with enhancements.

You're already giving away most of the Bards best buffs with ship buffs, and items that give the Bard typed version of a bonus. They already have the worst DC's and spell pen. due to 6th level spells. They already get the least use out of meta magics. And you guys already pretty much completely left Bards out of the spell pass.

You could triple Greater shout's base damage and it would still be weak even using 50 spell power enhancements from 3 wiz levels and 20 spell power from 1 Druid level (and 80 from bard enhancements) for a sonic spell power of 290 with items (but without meta's) this spell is STILL weak... You can no longer even do that. because spell power lines go bye bye.

So you're getting rid of that, AND giving the pure Bard 0 base crit chance...

picture my Bard in quicksand already half drowned, with only an outstretched hand still above the surface, you just stepped on his head like a stepping stone while you were crossing :(

[Lilliana]

You already have Magical Training if you are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, or Artificer.

I think, you should very seriously consider giving bards magical training also.
I find there is some inconsistency in giving bards sonic spellpower boost via their perform (I think I like this) and at the same time removing their enhancement line for spell crits (healing and sonic).

At the same time, I think you should also consider making the Heal skill be a class skill for bards, because of the new changes to positive energy (healing) spellpower through the heal skill.

[maddmatt70]

You already have Magical Training if you are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, or Artificer.

Say with the magical training enhancement in Arcane Archer available that means I do not need a sorcerer past life or to have a spell casting class in order to cast the arcane archer spells I am guessing. Correct?

[Blayster]

I realy wish there where other ways then Pando to get installation files... right now to run DDO on linux the hardest part isn't making it run but geting instalation files
Yes, I'm aware of that (though I didn't know it was associated with Pando), but there is an old installer for DDO somewhere which works flawlessly for wine.
For the moment I'm out of windows installation and VirtualBox installation in my machine is possible but sooooooooooooo tedious...
I'm gonna bug a friend to do it for me =P


We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that the Toughness feat was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.
I couldn't agree more, I can't wait to test these changes.


Did you want to play a self-sufficient melee who self-heals via bluebar? No devotion lines for you, and the healing amp line is inexplicably doubled in cost beyond tier 1.
No self-sufficient chars would be truly awesome. I hope this game goes in this direction, after all it is an MMO not a single player. This is me though.


Bards really need to be added to this list.
I'd love to agree with that but Bards have never "studied" it... still I feel like they deserve something to balance that. Perhaps auto-granted somewhere in spellsinger tree?

[Aussir]

No self-sufficient chars would be truly awesome.
You're telling me my rogue and my sorc are poo?

I had to "lol" at the complete lack of clue coming from this comment... go play with barbie and ken in NWO please.

[SqueakofDoom]

There was a switch away from Pando to something called "Happy Cloud" at one point. I can find no evidence of this now, and I can't find the installer, but I note that I've been unable to get Pando to load the game for a while now, but the old copy of the Happy Cloud installer I found on another machine worked fine.

We are currently running into some issues with the Pando installer. I am sorry about the inconvenience this causes, and we are investigating the issue.

[Blayster]

You're telling me my rogue and my sorc are poo?

I had to "lol" at the complete lack of clue coming from this comment... go play with barbie and ken in NWO please.
No. I am telling that in my opinion no character should be self sufficient. Last time I checked I was allowed to expose my opinion without the fear of being offended publicly.

[Blayster]

We are currently running into some issues with the Pando installer. I am sorry about the inconvenience this causes, and we are investigating the issue.
Perhaps uploading the installation files somewhere would do the trick? The thing is that Pando downloads it for us and etc, but that is only helpful when it works!

[Ganolyn]

No self-sufficient chars would be truly awesome. I hope this game goes in this direction, after all it is an MMO not a single player. This is me though.


So healers would need to chug healing pots in your world? Or rely on another healer? No self casting?

[Blayster]

So healers would need to chug healing pots in your world? Or rely on another healer? No self casting?
self-sufficient =/= self-healing

[Ganolyn]

self-sufficient =/= self-healing

That was just an example. Self sufficient means being able to take care of yourself and the requirements of the quest. Many classes are self sufficient.

[Kakashi67]

No. I am telling that in my opinion no character should be self sufficient. Last time I checked I was allowed to expose my opinion without the fear of being offended publicly.

I'm publicly offended when you expose your opinion.

Put it back where it belongs. :p

[FZTopaz]

Extremely poorly. This first preview makes it crystal clear that the devs want everyone to be a pure class, and they want those pure classes to play in rigidly defined roles.

As an example, clerics are essentially healbots. Kiss your dc casting goodbye. (They removed friggin' spell pen enhancements from clerics. If that doesn't say "shut up and heal" loud and clear, I don't know what would.)

Did you want to play a self-sufficient melee who self-heals via bluebar? Kiss those builds goodbye too. No devotion lines for you, and the healing amp line is inexplicably doubled in cost beyond tier 1.

I like how you assume things, given we haven't seen the OTHER classes to know what is there, this is still a VERY early alpha, they haven't released all the pre's for what we are testing on Lam right now, and they have mentioned MULTIPLE times that multi-classing will be just as good as it was before. There are certain costs that aren't right yet, certain abilities that need tweaking or completely taken out and replaced...lot's of work still to do.

So quit ***** * ******* ***** and trying to get everyone riled up with pitchforks and maybe, I don't know, offer HELPFUL criticism in the form of detailed bug reports instead of whining about everything? Just ideas...

[Missing_Minds]

We are currently running into some issues with the Pando installer. I am sorry about the inconvenience this causes, and we are investigating the issue.

The problem is you are using Pando.

[Vargouille]

Yeah, but spell casting is a major component for many bards and they are left out again on a caster bonus. You really need to reconsider your approach to bards instead of repeatedly omitting them from caster benefits because you insist on tying benefits to that one feat.

Let's talk in 2 weeks when Bards are ready.

We've got them covered.

[rest]

Let's talk in 2 weeks when Bards are ready.

We've got them covered.

Why why why why do we have the enhancement trees doled out to us piecemeal? Getting a look at the big picture is vitally important to me, and many others. Forcing people to check out certain trees and locking them out of the ones they REALLY want to see doesn't get you more focused feedback. It gets you people who are irritated and angry and their feedback reflects that. If someone has a 12 bard/6 arti/2 monk that they absolutely love to death and play every day to the exclusion of all other characters, why should they log in and give you a review of how much the Kensai tree sucks (it does suck, BTW) or a review of how pigeon-holed clerics are becoming (they are, BTW)?

I will likely never give feedback on the barbarian class tree, since I don't play barbarians. But what about someone else who loves barbs to the exclusion of all other classes, and his preview isn't for a couple weeks? What is he supposed to do? Give feedback for classes he doesn't play? How valuable is that? Maybe he is bitter about not getting able to preview his pet class, so he gives awful feedback on purpose to torpedo the feedback gathering process. Can you with 100% certainty filter out that type of on-purpose ugly feedback?

[Seikojin]

Why why why why do we have the enhancement trees doled out to us piecemeal? Getting a look at the big picture is vitally important to me, and many others. Forcing people to check out certain trees and locking them out of the ones they REALLY want to see doesn't get you more focused feedback. It gets you people who are irritated and angry and their feedback reflects that. If someone has a 12 bard/6 arti/2 monk that they absolutely love to death and play every day to the exclusion of all other characters, why should they log in and give you a review of how much the Kensai tree sucks (it does suck, BTW) or a review of how pigeon-holed clerics are becoming (they are, BTW)?

I will likely never give feedback on the barbarian class tree, since I don't play barbarians. But what about someone else who loves barbs to the exclusion of all other classes, and his preview isn't for a couple weeks? What is he supposed to do? Give feedback for classes he doesn't play? How valuable is that? Maybe he is bitter about not getting able to preview his pet class, so he gives awful feedback on purpose to torpedo the feedback gathering process. Can you with 100% certainty filter out that type of on-purpose ugly feedback?

Keywords will help sort rants versus raves.

Looking at what I see now, I see MC'ing built inm but I don't know how well it will play across current popular trees. However, they have access to what we don't and are actively checking our feedback against their plans. So just because you cant opinionate about it, doesn't mean they are ignoring it.

Also, posting that kind of feedback will ensure they do consider classic MS paths as they build this new system.

[Kakashi67]

Why why why why do we have the enhancement trees doled out to us piecemeal? Getting a look at the big picture is vitally important to me, and many others. Forcing people to check out certain trees and locking them out of the ones they REALLY want to see doesn't get you more focused feedback. It gets you people who are irritated and angry and their feedback reflects that. If someone has a 12 bard/6 arti/2 monk that they absolutely love to death and play every day to the exclusion of all other characters, why should they log in and give you a review of how much the Kensai tree sucks (it does suck, BTW) or a review of how pigeon-holed clerics are becoming (they are, BTW)?

I will likely never give feedback on the barbarian class tree, since I don't play barbarians. But what about someone else who loves barbs to the exclusion of all other classes, and his preview isn't for a couple weeks? What is he supposed to do? Give feedback for classes he doesn't play? How valuable is that? Maybe he is bitter about not getting able to preview his pet class, so he gives awful feedback on purpose to torpedo the feedback gathering process. Can you with 100% certainty filter out that type of on-purpose ugly feedback?

Dev said it was because they want to focus in on a few trees at a time. They will open all of the classes once this phase is over.

[FZTopaz]

Why why why why do we have the enhancement trees doled out to us piecemeal? Getting a look at the big picture is vitally important to me, and many others. Forcing people to check out certain trees and locking them out of the ones they REALLY want to see doesn't get you more focused feedback. It gets you people who are irritated and angry and their feedback reflects that. If someone has a 12 bard/6 arti/2 monk that they absolutely love to death and play every day to the exclusion of all other characters, why should they log in and give you a review of how much the Kensai tree sucks (it does suck, BTW) or a review of how pigeon-holed clerics are becoming (they are, BTW)?

I will likely never give feedback on the barbarian class tree, since I don't play barbarians. But what about someone else who loves barbs to the exclusion of all other classes, and his preview isn't for a couple weeks? What is he supposed to do? Give feedback for classes he doesn't play? How valuable is that? Maybe he is bitter about not getting able to preview his pet class, so he gives awful feedback on purpose to torpedo the feedback gathering process. Can you with 100% certainty filter out that type of on-purpose ugly feedback?

The biggest problem with your argument is they aren't releasing these so you can see how your favorite character is going to be in the future. I don't play clerics...never even rolled one up nor have I multi'ed into one before. However, I am making a cleric tonight to test out the new enhancements and see if they are buggy and how I feel the jell together. I will also be making a multi-classed cleric/ftr, cleric/ranger/ and an arti/ranger...to try and feel out the entire enhancment line so far (I have already done ranger, ranger/ftr, arti and pure ftr).

I am trying to help them build something that has a great blueprint, but needs a lot of fine tuning. Instead of complaining that your favorite thing in the world isn't available yet (it will be in two weeks) maybe try providing something constructive in the form of bug reports so that they can get an idea of what we, the player base, want.

And remember, if you are worried about multiclassing builds that have classes being released in different weeks, they have already said there will be a "free-for-all" test period with all lines open to try out multi-classing on a grander scale.

[Tid12]

Let's talk in 2 weeks when Bards are ready.

We've got them covered.

Tell us you have got Arcanes covered too :(

[EllisDee37]

I don't play clerics...never even rolled one up nor have I multi'ed into one before. However, I am making a cleric tonight to test out the new enhancements and see if they are buggy and how I feel the jell together. I will also be making a multi-classed cleric/ftr, cleric/ranger/ and an arti/ranger...to try and feel out the entire enhancment line so far (I have already done ranger, ranger/ftr, arti and pure ftr). This strikes me as a terrible idea. I'd much rather have the cleric feedback be from people who actually play clerics.

[Vargouille]

Our intent is to support both pure class characters and multiclass characters. Both should be viable. We would like there to be strong incentives for each, and not have the system clearly favor one over the other.

If you have concerns about either pure class or multiclass being obviously better than the other, voicing those concerns here is great, as well as in the surveys (linked in my signature).

[voodoogroves]

Our intent is to support both pure class characters and multiclass characters. Both should be viable. We would like there to be strong incentives for each, and not have the system clearly favor one over the other.

If you have concerns about either pure class or multiclass being obviously better than the other, voicing those concerns here is great, as well as in the surveys (linked in my signature).

I did a survey for each of the races; but there's on a single general class survey.

Is there any way to remove the PRE trees and just have a single class tree? Period? It might get busy, but then you'd have
- 1 race tree
- 1 epic tree
- up to 3 class trees (one for each class you have, or one unlocked / swapped by your race)

[rest]

The biggest problem with your argument is they aren't releasing these so you can see how your favorite character is going to be in the future. I don't play clerics...never even rolled one up nor have I multi'ed into one before. However, I am making a cleric tonight to test out the new enhancements and see if they are buggy and how I feel the jell together. I will also be making a multi-classed cleric/ftr, cleric/ranger/ and an arti/ranger...to try and feel out the entire enhancment line so far (I have already done ranger, ranger/ftr, arti and pure ftr).

I am trying to help them build something that has a great blueprint, but needs a lot of fine tuning. Instead of complaining that your favorite thing in the world isn't available yet (it will be in two weeks) maybe try providing something constructive in the form of bug reports so that they can get an idea of what we, the player base, want.

And remember, if you are worried about multiclassing builds that have classes being released in different weeks, they have already said there will be a "free-for-all" test period with all lines open to try out multi-classing on a grander scale.

You're obviously a much better person than me. I don't care in the slightest how the barbarian line looks. I'll never roll one. So that tree can rot for all I care. What I do care about are the classes I enjoy playing. Fighter, wizard, sorc, cleric, fvs, bard, rogue and monk. To a lesser extent, rangers and artis and POSSIBLY paladin (mostly for splashes). Barbs and druids could be removed tomorrow and I'd never ever ever notice. Why should I waste my time rolling up a barb that I have no intention of playing? To give feedback for a class I'll never play? Why? What if they listened to what I, someone who has no intention of playing a class, said instead of someone who plays their whole DDO career as that class? They play it. They know it. They love it. Let them give better feedback than I could ever offer.

So I have to wait how long before I can sink my teeth into the trees to all be open? 3 weeks? A month? Longer? I want to see the big picture. At this point it looks like multiclassing is dead in the water. Until I can see how everything interacts together, I'll continue to hold that opinion.

[Archetype]

NO place for our current, fun, builds to land:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/Drewseye/SARCASM/NoPigeonHolefoYOU_zps1d8e6c91.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/Drewseye/media/SARCASM/NoPigeonHolefoYOU_zps1d8e6c91.jpg.html)

All the pigeon-holes are taken!

:mad:

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

Not sure if this has already been brought up, since there is a ton of stuff to read out there on the enhancements now, but is there any reason why the enhancements can't be restricted by Points Spent in Tree OR class level, whichever is greater? For instance, if you had a 16/2/2 Bard/Ftr/Rogue warchanter, instead of having to spend more points than you have available to get decent enhancements across the board, simply have the class levels count as an alternative to "PSiT", so for Rogue or Ftr enhancements, you would still need to spend some, since you haven't relly "delved" into those classes, making it similar to Cross-Class skills. Whereas, for Bard, you have 16 levels, so you should be able to unlock everything but the "capstone" enhancements, without having to spend X points in that particular tree, making it easier for you to take higher tier Bard enhancements without too heavy of an investment.

Methinks something like this would still keep some restrictions, but ease up on things a bit for those who have a decent amount of class levels. Either that, or have class levels count as 2ap per towards "PSiT", so that 16 levels of Bard would be like having spent 32 points in the tree already.

I also agree that Racial trees should not have a "PSiT" requirement, but simply a character level requirement instead.

[rest]

Dev said it was because they want to focus in on a few trees at a time. They will open all of the classes once this phase is over.

I will likely have lost any interest in giving my feedback by then. Someone noted that this is what a dev said last night during Q&A:



+Varg made several things were made very clear in the "Q&A".* There was a LOT of noise in the Q&A, but Vargouille's contribution represents about 9.055% of the lines of text.* If you separate out only what he said, there's some meaningful information.

- Vargouille considers what we see in the Preview regarding class enhancement costs and the consequences of these costs to be a balanced and well thought out product.

- The enhancement point cost are intentionally high and the tree power is intentionally backloaded.

- There is an intentional effort to make Pure Class Builds attractive.

- The change to Core Enhancements (Innate Abilities) is intentional - They are intended to NOT be free.

- They are aware that the new costs will render existing multiclass builds obsolete.


The preview shows a direction that radically devalues multiclassing in general and splash builds in particular.

Custom character creation felt like a core competency - this change does not enhance it.

I didn't get in on the /devchat channel. Didn't even know it was there TBH. So this is taken second hand from someone else. What I take from that is that they already feel the way it is is good already. Which coincides with the way we've been asked to "test" before: "this is what we're doing whether you like it or not. No amount of feedback or suggestions will alter the way we're doing this. We're in charge, and you take what we give you." And that sucks. So maybe I'm better off not offering feedback, if I think that all my suggestions will fall upon deaf ears.

Ugh when did DDO turn me into such a cynic? :(

[Aashrym]

Let's talk in 2 weeks when Bards are ready.

We've got them covered.

I'm really hoping you do. My concern is that if I play a bard I'm going to be spending all my AP just to fall short still.

The solutions I would expect to see is to simply add magical training as a free feat to bards at 2nd level and the heal skill as a class skill if it's going to impact positive spell power. The alternative would be to add it as an enhancement purchase from the spell singer tree in the 2nd tier.

What I would really be concerned about is spending a lot of AP for similar effects because that puts bards at a high cost to hit something that should be at or near their starting point.

I'm also hoping y'all wow me with bards. I do like some of what I've seen so far, such as less focus on the toughness feat. When we can see all the classes at the same time I expect it will be easier to judge relative changes.

[Aashrym]

Our intent is to support both pure class characters and multiclass characters. Both should be viable. We would like there to be strong incentives for each, and not have the system clearly favor one over the other.

If you have concerns about either pure class or multiclass being obviously better than the other, voicing those concerns here is great, as well as in the surveys (linked in my signature).

I think the lack of high level requirements in the trees goes a long way to helping support multiclassing. It's hard to get a big picture on it right now, however, because we don't have access to all of the enhancements for all of the classes yet.

[FZTopaz]

You're obviously a much better person than me. I don't care in the slightest how the barbarian line looks. I'll never roll one. So that tree can rot for all I care. What I do care about are the classes I enjoy playing. Fighter, wizard, sorc, cleric, fvs, bard, rogue and monk. To a lesser extent, rangers and artis and POSSIBLY paladin (mostly for splashes). Barbs and druids could be removed tomorrow and I'd never ever ever notice. Why should I waste my time rolling up a barb that I have no intention of playing? To give feedback for a class I'll never play? Why? What if they listened to what I, someone who has no intention of playing a class, said instead of someone who plays their whole DDO career as that class? They play it. They know it. They love it. Let them give better feedback than I could ever offer.

So I have to wait how long before I can sink my teeth into the trees to all be open? 3 weeks? A month? Longer? I want to see the big picture. At this point it looks like multiclassing is dead in the water. Until I can see how everything interacts together, I'll continue to hold that opinion.

I would hope that they would get feedback from both groups. Those who play that class almost exclusively and those that have never played that class. I can give great feedback on the druid, wizard, ranger and monk trees, even the barb tree...but some of the others? Not as much. I have a basic understanding of clerics and the three roles they can play....healing, defense, offense....and I can be viewed as a new player coming in. You think that they don't want to know what this will be like for a person stepping fresh out of The Grotto? That they want to make sure it is as intuitive as possibly can be?

I am SURE they do. My feedback, having never played a cleric, is just as valuable as someone who is going to be incredibly biased and get upset because things are changing.

And no, I see no evidence that supporst your claim that multiclassing is dead in teh water. If it were to roll live with what we currently have? Yeah, it's going to be tough at first, but multi class would still be viable. My ranger/fighter cross is certainly still viable in the new enhancements, if not more so than before. She has more HP, more attacks that do more things, higher dodge, higher doublestrike chance, and at the cost of a few small things that I realized I can live without.

[Renegade66]

Why why why why do we have the enhancement trees doled out to us piecemeal?

Provding an early look and gaining feedback allows opportunity to use that feedback to adjust trees that are still being developed.

Also, if they waited to present the enhancement trees in their entirety, then people would be saying "Why why why do we have to wait for all enhancements before reviewing the ones that are already complete?" (aka the old "You just can't win, can you" effect).

[EllisDee37]

I have a basic understanding of clerics and the three roles they can play....healing, defense, offense....Those aren't the three roles clerics play. First, "healing" and "defense" are the same role. The other two roles are dc/offensive caster (evoker/necro) and melee (battlecleric).

[Systern]

The more I think about this, the more I think the whole system is flawed.

If you try and think about this graphically, make a chart or spreadsheet with all of a classes' abilities and enhancements. The current progression gives you all features along one axis as you progress along the other.

The new system divides those features along the opposite axis as well. You're not just climbing vertically reaching as far as the character extends along the horizontal, the horizontal is limited as well. Total area of covered features is thus limited.

A level 6 Artificer is comprised of the crossbow, the rune arm, the Artificer Knowledge granted feats, and the Buffs/spell casting.

The tree design forces you to min/max on one of those aspects and forsake the others.


People don't splash 2 rogue for just evasion. It's evasion, skill points, UMD access, the sneak attack die, trap skills, everything that the class brings to the table.

The Tree system means that you can only advance one aspect of all those class features, leaving so much behind.


You guys have put a year's worth of work into this, so I doubt you want to just scrap the whole process... You are dividing a classes abilities along an additional axis, however.

[FZTopaz]

Those aren't the three roles clerics play. First, "healing" and "defense" are the same role. The other two roles are dc/offensive caster (evoker/necro) and melee (battlecleric).

healing =\= defense. Defense is a proactive action, meaning things like buffing, crowd control, etc. Doing things to help DEFEND the party. Healing is reactive action, meaning you do something AFTER the action has taken place. Those two roles can be combined, but are not interchangable.

And a DC/Offensive caster and a battle cleric would still both fall under "offense" as you are fighting in one way or another.

Please note, those are the three BASIC roles..and they can be mixed up together or with other classes (a defense druid, a healing ranger, an evoker FVS).

[EllisDee37]

healing =\= defense. Defense is a proactive action, meaning things like buffing, crowd control, etc. Doing things to help DEFEND the party. Healing is reactive action, meaning you do something AFTER the action has taken place. Those two roles can be combined, but are not interchangable.

And a DC/Offensive caster and a battle cleric would still both fall under "offense" as you are fighting in one way or another.

Please note, those are the three BASIC roles..and they can be mixed up together or with other classes (a defense druid, a healing ranger, an evoker FVS).And this is a nice example of why I'd rather people who don't play clerics don't fill out the cleric survey.

You really think "healing and defense" are distinct enough to warrant two separate trees, yet "dc casting" and "melee" are both offense so equivalent? That's impressively off base.

[FZTopaz]

And this is a nice example of why I'd rather people who don't play clerics don't fill out the cleric survey.

You really think "healing and defense" are distinct enough to warrant two separate trees, yet "dc casting" and "melee" are both offense so equivalent? That's impressively off base.

No, not at all. I never said that at all. I said those are three roles...never said I agreed with the pre's. I feel that healing and defense can be in the same tree, that there should be one for offensive casting and one for battle clerics. That doesn't change the fact that healing, defense and offense are the three BASIC roles that are available.

[Qezuzu]

We are currently running into some issues with the Pando installer. I am sorry about the inconvenience this causes, and we are investigating the issue.


The problem is you are using Pando.

Yeah, this.

Do you know how PMB works? It uses a peer-to-peer network that allows the downloading of files without a centralized server. You know what other software can do that? Your average torrent client.

Torrent download option please. Star Trek Online has this option, I know. I would seed for you.

[SirValentine]

...Bards...

They already have the worst DC's and spell pen.


That's simply not true.

Spellsingers DCs are competitive with divine DCs.

And Spellsinger Spell Penetration is way ahead of divines.

Yes, the only-6-levels-of-spells and no-magical-training Specialist class is better at offensive casting than a full-9-spell-levels Spellcaster class like Cleric.

[SirValentine]

Let's talk in 2 weeks when Bards are ready.

We've got them covered.

Looking forward to when you get around to doing the core D&D class, Cleric, instead of that other class, from the Miniatures Handbook, Healer. I hope you have that covered, too.

[BOgre]

Looking forward to when you get around to doing the core D&D class, Cleric, instead of that other class, from the Miniatures Handbook, Healer. I hope you have that covered, too.

hehe, don't count on it. Looks like all the BYOH lfms are living on borrowed time. There will soon be no such thing as a Cleric that doesn't heal, or more likely: there will soon be no one playing Divines at all.

[Pilgrim1]

My suggestions are simple and may be already voiced:

1 - Figure out which abilities you want linked to a particular level in a class. For example the capstones are linked to lvl 20, prestige enhancements are linked to 6, 12, and 18.

2 - Make fewer enhancements have prerequisite's of other enhancements. The only current prerequisites are for prestige enhancements (with a few exceptions). We can take extra action boost without having action boosts.

3 - Lower the total number of enhancements required for racial abilities to unlock (unless its for a racial prestige class). The advantage of being say human is to take just the stat and the healing amp stuff.

4 - Don't lean to far in the multi-class area. The more complicated and top end builds are already multi-classes, however most class splashes are not for enhancements. Typically 2 levels of a class are splashed for feets, evasion, skills, or other class specific abilities. Rarely are they splashed for enhancements. People splash 6 lvls of a class generally for the prestige class. If you open it up to a lower lvl split we will see things like 18 sorc/2pally with stalwart, or such like that.

5 - Multi-classing is something that happens on melee classes far more then on caster classes because the inherent advantage of staying pure on the class (spells, DC, spell points, spell lvl). If you want to encurage people to stay pure make the melee classes capstone's better.

6 - Lots of rambling but I want to say finally, I like how this is looking to be. Lots of new possibilities.

[Violith]

Our intent is to support both pure class characters and multiclass characters. Both should be viable. We would like there to be strong incentives for each, and not have the system clearly favor one over the other.

If you have concerns about either pure class or multiclass being obviously better than the other, voicing those concerns here is great, as well as in the surveys (linked in my signature).

until everything is implemented (What was said to be in a month, after all of the pure class focus feedback) Its kinda hard to say how multiclass are effected, so hopefully, at that time it iwll still be in alpha and able to be changed.

[legendlore]

I'd love to agree with that but Bards have never "studied" it...

This variant of Magical training is a feat entirely made up by turbine. Per dnd lore there are a couple of classes that doesn't train their spells (to the extent other classes do) but rather cast them as an innate awakened ability. The ones included in ddo are Sorcerers, Favored souls and Bards.

Sorcerers and favored souls are spontaneous casters just like bards and receive both the feat and double spell points for being spontaneous casters (to compensate for that every class can recast the same spell in ddo), yet bards receive neither.

[legendlore]

That's simply not true.

Spellsingers DCs are competitive with divine DCs.

And Spellsinger Spell Penetration is way ahead of divines.

Yes, the only-6-levels-of-spells and no-magical-training Specialist class is better at offensive casting than a full-9-spell-levels Spellcaster class like Cleric.

This isn't true.

Bards have extremely limited access to offensive casting (the best being Greater shout that does roughly 40 damage /cast).

If by offensive casting you mean enchantment spells, bards can only receive a workable dc in that particular spell school and has to stay pure or loose 3dc which isn't an option since they are already 3dc behind wizards in maximum achievable dc in that spell school.

Bards spell selection in enchantment is also very limited (consisting mostly of charm spells) and epic wards rule out the chance of charm spells being used at all in epic content above epic normal (they auto-break after a few seconds (5-8?) regardless of casters dc).


If clerics would choose one main offensive spell school it would probably be Evocation for most players (largely due to Blade barrier and Implosion).

At level 20 (ungeared and pure) bards & clerics would be equal due to bards capstone (if we were to compare bards enchantment to any chosen spell school for clerics). A cleric multi-classing monk and water stance will have 1 more dc in any spell school than a bard could achieve in enchantment, by equipping an alchemical wis item this will rise to 2 more than a bard can achieve. Bards can get another for enchantment from their past life that takes a feat slot. Clerics can get 3 sorcerer past lives for a total evocation boost of 3 that doesn't cost any feats (and both can get wizard of course).

When it comes to Epic destinies Clerics can get 2 more in evocation from twisting draconic spell school mastery and bards receive 2 enchantment dc if they tie themselves to the Fatesinger destiny (and are max level).


As for spell penetration it's true that many forget that bards (due to their capstone) actually have the second highest achievable spell penetration in the game (2 behind elf wizards). Compared to a cleric with equal feats they would have 3 more spell pen (2 from capstone and one from arcane might song). But the problem is just that 'equal feats', bards can't afford spell casting feats in the same manner as other casters since they lack offense spells and has to use their feats for martial dps abilities as well whilst a cleric can use Blade barriers or Implosion for their dps needs.

[SealedInSong]

Bards really need to be added to this list.

I really can't see how you can add another exotic weapon feat to artificers (which I like in principle, but it makes a good example) and still ignore bards as a casting class (Spellsingers in particular) by still denying them a feat they should have had ever since it was introduced.

This is now getting really bad, before it meant that bards had less spell points and no free spell point regen, then it meant that caster bards couldn't use new caster gear introduced to the game and now it locks them out of spell criticals and spell power enhancements (such as human versatility for casters).

Bards don't have the luxury of free class feats that artificers and wizards do and really can't afford buying magical training as a standard feat.


I'm afraid to point it out for fear of the nerf bat, but bards (rightly so) get spellcraft as a skill but NOT magical training?

I can understand rangers and paladins missing out on that blue bar privilege, but at this point, bards need all the leg-ups they can get it, and it doesn't seem logical or fair that bards should be excluded from Magical Training.

If the future of the bard enhancements is that one has to spend a ton of skill points in a prestige tree they don't have any interest in just to have a middling amount of positive spell power, they have to purchase Magical Training and invest in a ton of Intelligence to have a modicum of healing power... then no one should be under the illusion that they're a remotely balanced class.


So bards which are already the weakest class in the game, are yet even worse, because now they have to take a feat or splash to get 5% of something they used to get 9% of with enhancements.

You're already giving away most of the Bards best buffs with ship buffs, and items that give the Bard typed version of a bonus. They already have the worst DC's and spell pen. due to 6th level spells. They already get the least use out of meta magics. And you guys already pretty much completely left Bards out of the spell pass.

You could triple Greater shout's base damage and it would still be weak even using 50 spell power enhancements from 3 wiz levels and 20 spell power from 1 Druid level (and 80 from bard enhancements) for a sonic spell power of 290 with items (but without meta's) this spell is STILL weak... You can no longer even do that. because spell power lines go bye bye.

So you're getting rid of that, AND giving the pure Bard 0 base crit chance...

picture my Bard in quicksand already half drowned, with only an outstretched hand still above the surface, you just stepped on his head like a stepping stone while you were crossing :(


I think, you should very seriously consider giving bards magical training also.
I find there is some inconsistency in giving bards sonic spellpower boost via their perform (I think I like this) and at the same time removing their enhancement line for spell crits (healing and sonic).

At the same time, I think you should also consider making the Heal skill be a class skill for bards, because of the new changes to positive energy (healing) spellpower through the heal skill.

A long wall of quotes but I feel the emphasis is necessary. Please consider this. Thanks.

[Edit: also, addressing Vargouille's comment about bards being covered, if I am to assume that means they have to spend a quarter of their points in the Spellsinger?Virt?Combo? tree just to get perhaps 75% of the positive energy spell power they once had for half the AP, then... no. That's not covering it.]

[SealedInSong]

This isn't true.

Bards have extremely limited access to offensive casting (the best being Greater shout that does roughly 40 damage /cast). (snip...)

Very well-stated

[Blayster]

That was just an example. Self sufficient means being able to take care of yourself and the requirements of the quest. Many classes are self sufficient.
As I understand it, self-suficient char is one who does not depend on the group in which he is in. It means that he does not need to "play in team". Whereas there are exception, I'd prefer to not live under the exceptions roof. If absolutely no character is self-suficient, everybody is obligated to be a team player. That harms zerg players only IMHO... but I am coming to the conclusion that mostly zerg players post in forums... xD

If anything, I'd like DDO to come closer to PnP in team play terms (or at least in my PnP group we were all about team play) and I don't mean the holy trinity (tank+dps+heal). On the top of my head, I cannot remember any other MMO with a traps system, and I think DDO should explore this better, and perhaps add other similar things (like adding a meaning to the *scout* role) but well... this is another subject.


Put it back where it belongs.
Hahahahaha, it was a *cp -R /brain/delusions/that_comment /internet/forums/ddo/*, so it is in both places now and so it shall be xD


Our intent is to support both pure class characters and multiclass characters. Both should be viable. We would like there to be strong incentives for each, and not have the system clearly favor one over the other.

If you have concerns about either pure class or multiclass being obviously better than the other, voicing those concerns here is great, as well as in the surveys (linked in my signature).
I'd like to ask something about this...
There should be a conceptual difference between multiclass and pure class?
Is your intent to make multiclass more versatile but less powerful? If yes, how "less powerful"? And how "more versatile"? I'm not asking for an equation, just a basic idea.


Torrent download option please. Star Trek Online has this option, I know. I would seed for you.
+1


There will soon be no such thing as a Cleric that doesn't heal
Are you implying that they exist now? =P


Sorcerers and favored souls are spontaneous casters just like bards and receive both the feat and double spell points for being spontaneous casters (to compensate for that every class can recast the same spell in ddo), yet bards receive neither.
That is very true, thank you for correcting!

[SirValentine]

As for spell penetration it's true that many forget that bards (due to their capstone) actually have the second highest achievable spell penetration in the game (2 behind elf wizards). Compared to a cleric with equal feats they would have 3 more spell pen (2 from capstone and one from arcane might song).


More than that. Add in +2 from destinies, too. And most (not all) Bard spells are also on the Wiz/Sorc list, so add another +2 from an item.

1-2 DC is a "competitive" difference. 6-7 Spell Pen difference is "way ahead".

[Svartelric]

Regarding Toughness enhancements:

We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that the Toughness feat was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability, a feat that all characters start with at level 1. Characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.

Where's the choice in that?

[EllisDee37]

As I understand it, self-suficient char is one who does not depend on the group in which he is in. It means that he does not need to "play in team". Whereas there are exception, I'd prefer to not live under the exceptions roof. If absolutely no character is self-suficient, everybody is obligated to be a team player. That harms zerg players only IMHO... but I am coming to the conclusion that mostly zerg players post in forums... xDI'm about as un-zerg as a veteran player gets, and this would utterly destroy the game for me.

Self-sufficient means being able to solo. Soloists comprise a non-trivial percentage of the player base. Marginalizing soloists hurts the viability of the game itself no matter how you slice it.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

We are currently running into some issues with the Pando installer. I am sorry about the inconvenience this causes, and we are investigating the issue.

Ive got multiple guildies, including myself, that cant access Lamma. Always hangs at "Connecting".

Is there another way to load lamannia until you all figure the Pando mess out?

We are looking forward to testing/previewing the changes.

[Postumus]

Where's the choice in that?

Everyone already considers toughness a 'mandatory' feat now. So now you just got a feat slot opened up giving you more choices.

[Charononus]

Everyone already considers toughness a 'mandatory' feat now. So now you just got a feat slot opened up giving you more choices.

It's still mandatory imo

[Missing_Minds]

We are currently running into some issues with the Pando installer. I am sorry about the inconvenience this causes, and we are investigating the issue.

Every day there is no fix, is another day of failure of alpha testing. Leaving forumites to suggest changes based on conjecture vs. first hand experience.

How many days of failure during alpha before you mothball it and Turbine takes action for itself.

How much longer will Turbine continue to give Atari credit as publisher also?

[Postumus]

It's still mandatory imo

I guess that depends on how many hit points you think you need to have fun. For me this just opens up another feat for some of my builds.

[legendlore]

More than that. Add in +2 from destinies, too. And most (not all) Bard spells are also on the Wiz/Sorc list, so add another +2 from an item.

1-2 DC is a "competitive" difference. 6-7 Spell Pen difference is "way ahead".

+2 from destinies can be twisted by clerics as well, +2 from item I assume you mean Arcane augmentation that doesn't stack with Song of arcane might, so it would be an +1 bonus and would effectively lock out the bard from the only offense ability it would have (its weapons) since it is only available on weapons.

The +1-2 dc difference is actually in the clerics favor (as shown in the post above) and it rises to a +4-5 difference if its Evocation.


I'm generally a bit confused though, your argument is that bards are better offense casters than clerics, which to me translates as you saying that Greater shout is a spell good enough to beat Blade barrier, Divine punishment and Implosion combined.

As said if you by offensive casting capability mean the ability to crowd control, a enchantment bard build is very limited, it would give up all of its offense capability in order to cc dealing about 40-50 damage a swing with its weapons since it doesn't have the feats to boosts its only way to deal damage.

It also has to depend on 2 capstones, meaning it has to stay pure and will be very far behind until it gets its l20 capstone and then be very far behind again until it reaches its Fatesinger capstone. All this to be able to cast Ottos dancing sphere, Ottos irresistible dance and hold monster (single target version). These are generally the only effective enchantment spells bards have access to at epic levels.

Compare this to an enchantment wizard who not only gets better dc:s it will also get a much wider spell selection, a more even progression while leveling by not depending on capstones and many of the feats used will also boost its offense capability by having access to offense spells.

[danzig138]

Last time I checked I was allowed to expose my opinion without the fear of being offended publicly.No, that isn't the case. You're free to express your opinion, and that is all. You are not free to express your opinion unchallenged, unmocked or unoffended, as long as the rules of the forum are not violated. That's a common misunderstanding that people seem to have.

I wish I had something to say about the new enhancement system, but the downloader is being a PitA, so I don't have Lamm up and running yet. :(

[Blayster]

Self-sufficient means being able to solo. Soloists comprise a non-trivial percentage of the player base. Marginalizing soloists hurts the viability of the game itself no matter how you slice it.
Good that you mentioned it, and good that you also mentioned your personal experience (thus opening the oportunity for myself to also do so).

I have played for nearly 10 years another MMO with a solo build as my main character, some sort of a battle cleric. It was a horrible build, it was good for soloing and nothing more, it could not fit any party and so on. The game never supported this kind of build via spells nor equipament (that is, new things were added to the game but never with that in mind). Some few people were insisting in similar builds. We did that for fun, and we all knew it was not optimal. We heard rumours several times that they would add new stuff for this build (the old "we support all kinds of game play!" thing), but it never happened.

All in all, I don't think devs need to support solo builds, as they will probably happen anyway. Support would just make them more valuable, thus encouraging its use. Now what is the matter of opinion here; you think devs should encourage the use of solo chars (via developing enhancements and maintaining certain builds) whereas I personally don't like this idea. That's all. I don't even think my opinion has any weight here, given the aggressivity of the community after my mere comment. It also doesn't mean that I would never work myself on a soloer, regardless of being supported by the game or not.



You are not free to express your opinion unchallenged, unmocked or unoffended, as long as the rules of the forum are not violated. That's a common misunderstanding that people seem to have.

http://forums.ddo.com/announcement.php?f=211&a=4

1. While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to:

Name-calling or other insults
Posting or commenting with the intent of provoking ("trolling") another user or users

[EllisDee37]

I'm not saying they need to add incentive to solo. I'm saying they are significantly nerfing self-sufficiency that we already have on live.

I don't want anything taken away from anyone. You, apparently, want the soloability we currently have to be taken away.

[DeathbringerGod]

My brother tried the new system with his Cleric lv 25 and he dislaked a lot the fact that you get Radiant Servant at lev 20... it change all his build, you should get some of the Radiant Servant bonuses at lv 6, 12 and 18...
the same with some bonuses from Kensai I too for example

[Aashrym]

My brother tried the new system with his Cleric lv 25 and he dislaked a lot the fact that you get Radiant Servant at lev 20... it change all his build, you should get some of the Radiant Servant bonuses at lv 6, 12 and 18...
the same with some bonuses from Kensai I too for example

Ummm, you do unless something was bugging on him or he was not understanding something. A person can get the aura in the tree at character level 11 with only 5 cleric levels if multi'd in, and the PrE abilities are at 1, 3, 6, 12, and 18, with a capstone at 20.

I had the aura and burst on a 6th level cleric I splashed in to a paladin build and had no trouble with access to the abilities, and I also have a pure cleric that had no issues at level 20 getting the capstone. I don't like the capstone, but I didn't have any issues getting it. ;)

Right now the cleric trees look like they are heavily dependent on a splash to supplement them and the best options look like 18/2 or 17/3 splits on a cleric. They also seem like they have potential as a dip. As a pure class they cater to a specific playstyle on the surface.

More spell power in areas they didn't have before and a +2 WIS in the capstone they didn't have before so the job wasn't as bad and the forums are indicating. What the upfront view in our faces is the healing aspect while the spell power and DC's are much more subtle in the way the enhancements are laid out and that's what players are going to notice as a first impression and the visible in our faces part was a different direction than forum goers had been requesting.

I'm not a fan of how the cleric trees are implemented but I can see that there is potential gain in offensive power as far as spell casting goes.

Part of the issue is that our simplified interface is still complicated in class design.

[DeathbringerGod]

Yes he understand a little by messing around... but he lost the boost SP (Cleric: Energy of Zealot)

I too realized that the DC of my combat tactics are reduced since the fighter enhancements to feats like Trip and Stunning Blow are removed...

I have a a fighter lv 25 with 44 str, str mod 17. So before i had:
Stunning Blow DC: 10+ 17 STR + 3 Kensai III + 4 Stunning B. Enhance + 6 Epic destiny = 40 DC
Trip DC: 10+ 17 STR + 3 Kensai III + 3 Trip Enhance + 6 Epic destiny = 39 DC

NOW I have 36 DC for Stunning Blow and 35 to Trip.... on epic adventures is hard that these DCs succeed

[Aashrym]

Yes he understand a little by messing around... but he lost the boost SP (Cleric: Energy of Zealot)

I too realized that the DC of my combat tactics are reduced since the fighter enhancements to feats like Trip and Stunning Blow are removed...

I have a a fighter lv 25 with 44 str, str mod 17. So before i had:
Stunning Blow DC: 10+ 17 STR + 3 Kensai III + 4 Stunning B. Enhance + 6 Epic destiny = 40 DC
Trip DC: 10+ 17 STR + 3 Kensai III + 3 Trip Enhance + 6 Epic destiny = 39 DC

NOW I have 36 DC for Stunning Blow and 35 to Trip.... on epic adventures is hard that these DCs succeed

Yes, I get the general impression there's a blanket wide adjustment going on in a balancing move as part of the changes so there will be a lot of dust to settle before all it's all over.

I would have preferred PrC focused trees instead of devotion trees. The healing focus overshadows some added benefits and I keep seeing posts about nothing for offensive casters so I point out some benefits that were added for offensive casters.

Once we see all of the polish and adjustments we will all have a better understanding of the changes.

I never thought the SP were worth the AP before. Now Elf with a splash is nice because the elf provide 5 shots of temp SP that totals far more than we had in the energy of lines, elf still has arcanum and now it is without the requirement of being a wizard, and soul magic in the arcane archer tree helps with SP. Also, efficient maximize is far more effective than energy of lines.

A person doesn't even need to splash but it's a good idea for feats and a bad idea if a person wants 2 more WIS from a capstone.

Why worry about not having 10 AP for the energy of and 12 AP for spell pen when you can spend 6 AP for 100 SP and +3 spell penetration? The options still exists, but are found in choice of race.

[DeathbringerGod]

Yeah, my brother is playing a Dwarf cleric

[Aashrym]

Yeah, my brother is playing a Dwarf cleric

Has he tried stone hands yet, or no dragonmarks? I haven't tried that one out yet but it's on my to do list so I'm curious.

[DeathbringerGod]

Has he tried stone hands yet, or no dragonmarks? I haven't tried that one out yet but it's on my to do list so I'm curious.


He has no dragonmarks, what it does? I will read about it haha

[SirValentine]

+2 from destinies can be twisted by clerics as well


The only way a Cleric can use all 3 Spell Pen boosting ED abilities is to lose 5 points of spell pen by not being in an ED that gives them caster level. Which would defeat the purpose.

So...Cleric in EA, with Piercing twisted from Magister and Draconic.

Verus Bard in...take your pick of the 3 Arcane destinies...with Piercing x2 and Echoes of the Ancestors, one from ED you're sitting in, other 2 twisted.

There are not enough Fate Points available to twist all 3.



I'm generally a bit confused though, your argument is that bards are better offense casters than clerics


My argument isn't that they are better or worse. I was simply pointing out the claim that Bards "have the worst DC's and spell pen" isn't true.

[legendlore]

The only way a Cleric can use all 3 Spell Pen boosting ED abilities is to lose 5 points of spell pen by not being in an ED that gives them caster level. Which would defeat the purpose.

So...Cleric in EA, with Piercing twisted from Magister and Draconic.

Verus Bard in...take your pick of the 3 Arcane destinies...with Piercing x2 and Echoes of the Ancestors, one from ED you're sitting in, other 2 twisted.

There are not enough Fate Points available to twist all 3.


True (I had it in my mind that "piercing spellcraft" was a tier 2, when it's in fact a tier 3).



My argument isn't that they are better or worse. I was simply pointing out the claim that Bards "have the worst DC's and spell pen" isn't true.

Well to be fair your statement was;


Yes, the only-6-levels-of-spells and no-magical-training Specialist class is better at offensive casting than a full-9-spell-levels Spellcaster class like Cleric.

To me there is a great deal of distance between being a better offensive caster than a class with access to instant kills, persistent aoe damage spells and stack able dots etc.. and being able to reach an workable dc in a single spell school (that you can't choose yourself) and spell penetration for 3 (in endgame) usable spells by sacrificing all other aspects of your build.

[irnimnode]

not sure of something has the feats change for kensai fighter? Because before the new enhancements my fighter was a Kensai 2 Assassin 1..with the new enhancements i was only allowed 3 AP in the kensai tree 31 in the assassin tree and 29 in the stalworth defender tree. I not dissapointed with the out come my chacacter still came out a pretty tough homber but was just trying to figure out why i only was allowed 3AP on Kensai

[Seikojin]

not sure of something has the feats change for kensai fighter? Because before the new enhancements my fighter was a Kensai 2 Assassin 1..with the new enhancements i was only allowed 3 AP in the kensai tree 31 in the assassin tree and 29 in the stalworth defender tree. I not dissapointed with the out come my chacacter still came out a pretty tough homber but was just trying to figure out why i only was allowed 3AP on Kensai

Try accepting some changes mid build, close out the UI and start again. It may recalculate and allow you to spend points into it again.

[irnimnode]

Try accepting some changes mid build, close out the UI and start again. It may recalculate and allow you to spend points into it again.

ok will give it a try thanks for the info

[SirValentine]

...instant kills, persistent aoe damage spells and stack able dots etc.. and being able to reach an workable dc in a single spell school (that you can't choose yourself) and spell penetration for 3 (in endgame) usable spells by sacrificing all other aspects of your build.


I thought I was comparing Cleric to Bard, so you've lost me.

Clerics have no persistent AoE, and only a single DoT. And Bards have more than 3 usable Enchantment spells, and don't have to sacrifice all other aspects of their builds anymore than Clerics.

If you think a Bard has a tougher time CCing with Otto's Sphere than a Cleric's Greater Command, I don't know what to tell you.

But anyway, that's all beside the point: Wizard enhancements currently give them unfair DC advantages over all other spellcasters, and arcane items & EDs give them unfair Spell Pen advantages over divines.

[DRAXnekro]

Since I cant log into Lamannia (because of the connect/wait issue) I have only read a lot about the new enhancements and I got some thoughts about them. I hope this is the good place to post it :p

First of all we should be really grateful to Turbine for letting us get into the alpha phase of new enhancements and not doing something like “Here you go! We have new enhancements for you! We hope you will get use to them and if not just stop playing!” like they were doing it for the last few years with other major game changes. So please stop crying all over the forum how much nerf will the changes bring, especially clerics – wait for the warpriest to be released – and just say what you don’t like and how would you like see it changed. Now you seems to want a cleric with a healing and protection domain to be a killer machine with spells and weapons. In some part I understand this and with the new enhancement you have to go all healbot PrE with mostly no more points available to spend for a bit effective offensive spellcasting compared to that you have on live. This is only alpha so this is the first version and there is still lot of work on this. Anyway I think that some of the newly shown enhancements are even better than epic destinies (some of kensai and ranger abilities) and other could get some boost (like knight of the chalice and the racial enhancements) so there is a lot of balancing work to do (epic destinies also could get some balancing reworks but not gonna talk about it here).
So here comes my idea of few changes to the enhancements that might be a good solution to getting forced in spending all the available AP into one PrE to get the SOOO GOOOD tier 5 abilities.

Now the enhancements are like this:
tier 5 abilities require: lvl 5 of current class, 40 AP spend in the tree and required feats or lower tier enhancements
core abilities (that are like the PrE enhancements them self in the life server) require current lvl in class up to lvl 20 and AP spend in the tree

My suggestion is to change the AP requirement of the abilities for exaple :
tier 5 abilities would require: lvl 5 of current class, 40 AP spend overall (so you will be able to get it at lvl 10-12 not earlier), and 20 or 30 AP spend in tree (so you wont be able to get the yummy skills from all the PrE without any cost, 20 AP requirement might be too low for multiclassing and result in OP what I dont want) and required feats or lower tier enhancements if there are any.
I would leave the core abilities requirement as its logically that you have to specialize in the class and PrE to get the highest tier ability and capstone just like it is on live servers but make them auto-granted when you hit the requirements.
Also would like to see all the characteristic enhancements for a class in every PrE from it. Fighter was a fighter no mater if its a kensai or stalwart and you could take haste boost and toughness enhancements in both. They are 2 different types of fighter so the enhancements could be placed in different tiers (kensai toughness in tier 3 and stalwar toughness in tier 2 or 1) and taking one of it would made it unable to take in other tree (you have to pick one of, kensai or stalwart toughness).
I can imagine that the 20 AP spend in tree to get the highest tier ability might be to low and result into having too many too powerful skills for a single character and have to be tested in-game. If so making a character able to pick tier 5 ability only from one tree could fix this.

For the racial enhancements now we got:
4 core abilities that require current character lvl and cost AP
and 4 tiers of abilities with requirement in AP spend in the tree.

On live all the race enhancements require only character lvl and overall AP spend to get them and I like it this way. My suggestion in the racial tree is to change the core abilities into auto-grants with a bit lower AP spend in tree and character lvl requirements that the class ones (for example the last core ability should have lvl 16 and 20 AP spend in tree requirement). The rest non-core racial abilities would have overall AP spend and character lvl requirement. Most of people picks some races just to get into one or two of it enhancements (like human for versatility and healing amp) and forcing them to spend to many precious APs to get it is a mistake.

Now I got a request to all of you. PLEASE don’t turn to much rage and hate for what I think but make a constructive conversation and tell me if I think wrong :p

P.S. Sorry for my English and typos :p

[IronClan]

If you think a Bard has a tougher time CCing with Otto's Sphere than a Cleric's Greater Command, I don't know what to tell you.

Heightening a GC takes it from a level 5 spell for DC purposes to a level 9, the Otto's sphere not so much (Bard's max 6th level spells) that said I admit I'm nit picking and I've run with some nice CC bards.



First of all we should be really grateful to Turbine for letting us get into the alpha phase of new enhancements and not doing something like “Here you go! We have new enhancements for you! We hope you will get use to them and if not just stop playing!”

Actually for the reasons you just mentioned, TURBINE should be grateful they aren't doing that. Because doing that historically in many MMO's has resulted in the MMO going down hill and losing players. Star Wars Galaxies being the most famous example.

I'm mr, Turbine apologist around here when it suits others to think that, but if they break a bunch of builds when it's been proven that two simple changes will avoid breaking ANY BUILDS, then maybe they deserve some of that heat.

The simple fact is they know they are breaking builds, Squeek edited out "we know we're going to break your builds" from one of her posts... And they have 100% for sure already seen the suggestion for removing "AP spent in tree" and making it global points spent which with one other change would allow for NO BROKEN BUILDS. But they've not acknowledged that yet. Until they do,I think anyone who doesn't want their build broken had better speak up and make it known throughout this alpha phase and beta phase.

[~rachealgoss]

I did the ranger skill tree for tempest and one of the top level skills is x/3 and all the prerequisite skills for it are x/1. So the top level skill can only ever be 1/3 (since "you cant have more points in a skill . . . ) and needs ot be changed to x/1 or the others need to go to x/3. I am not logged in and dont remember which one but it is easy to find.

[caquias]

If this is any indication if the radiant servant I will be leaving the cleric class behind. Went from hitting burst at 400 to 600 and heals for 600 and up to go down to less then 250 is heart braking and will cost to much. I love both my clerics and its hard for me to even change them a little because good healing is hard to come by. I know I'm not alone when I say please don't make the clerics work harder after all we keep the groups standing.



We are oft to blame in this,-- 'Tis too much proved--that with devotion's visage.
And pious action we do sugar o'er. The devil himself.

[legendlore]

I thought I was comparing Cleric to Bard, so you've lost me.

Clerics have no persistent AoE, and only a single DoT.
Blade barrier is a great persistent aoe spell, this spell alone makes clerics a viable solo class in the mid levels.
You miss understand me with the dots, the point was that you can stack multiple dots (which has a far greater damage potential than non stack able dots as say acid arrow), not that there is access to multiple dot spells.



And Bards have more than 3 usable Enchantment spells, and don't have to sacrifice all other aspects of their builds anymore than Clerics.
There are 2 more that 'can' be used, both being lesser versions of better spells, Hold person; to juggle multiple timers to somewhat mitigate that bards don't have mass holds (most don't do this in my experience though). Otto's resistible dance; to keep monsters dancing longer than the irresistible version (personally I haven't used this since around u12-13 when I played Lord of blades and needed buff time between the waves).

And yes a bard does in fact sacrifice more than any other caster class when going the caster route simply because it doesn't have access to any damage capability through casting. Ddo is a very dps focused game, building a character without dps can work in a static group, but it won't be much fun when trying to play one outside of a static group.



If you think a Bard has a tougher time CCing with Otto's Sphere than a Cleric's Greater Command, I don't know what to tell you.
Never said anything of the sort and if you think I did you haven't read my posts. I've argued against your statement that bards are better offensive casters than clerics.

But as a 'fun' (tragic really) fact since you brought it up, bards do in fact have a weaker dc than clerics in enchantment spells until (and if) they reach level 20 and get their capstone, even if they buy both spell focus feats they're still one dc behind.



For me being an better offensive caster means more than having a higher spell penetration potential than another class, it means a greater ability to deal damage through spells. Since bards don't have this ability I'm afraid I wont ever be convinced otherwise until this changes.

From what I've read out of your posts it seems that you deem bards being better off than clerics due to their Epic destiny sphere being better (not being a better base class in them self) which I however can agree with and I do hope that a nice cleric destiny will be released soon.

Any way I don't believe we will get much further in this discussion and I'll agree to disagree.

[zaphear]

This update is going to ruin every splash build in the game.. I seriously hope they give everyone free +20 greater hearts of wood. Otherwise I'm going to be extremely ****ed..