What's all this Shiradi talk about?

[knightgf]

Seriously, why are so many casters taking Shiradi? Maybe it's just me, or maybe its because of the poor descriptions of epic destinies, but I don't see what all the hype is about, honestly.

I smell a nerf coming with all this talk, no offense. It just seems way too powerful with how people talk about it left and right.

[Viconiax]

Seriously, why are so many casters taking Shiradi? Maybe it's just me, or maybe its because of the poor descriptions of epic destinies, but I don't see what all the hype is about, honestly.

I smell a nerf coming with all this talk, no offense. It just seems way too powerful with how people talk about it left and right.

EE GH mobs saves is too high. Which made lot of EDs that focused/have DC abilities seem bad right now. Fix saves, boost weak ED like unyieling, etc. and it will solve the problem, no need to nerf anything. :)

[Ganolyn]

Seriously, why are so many casters taking Shiradi? Maybe it's just me, or maybe its because of the poor descriptions of epic destinies, but I don't see what all the hype is about, honestly.

I smell a nerf coming with all this talk, no offense. It just seems way too powerful with how people talk about it left and right.


The hype is about damage, lots of it, with no serious mana cost for the user. I think it works fine and agree that other ED should be brought up to snuff, not this one (or others) nerfed.

[Darkrok]

I agree with the other two posters. Shiradi casters aren't doing insane damage compared to melee and ranged characters. They are far more effective in end-game EE's than DC-based casters because the DC's are just too hard to reach on a lot of the enemies. I've seen LD and FoTW melee builds shame Shiradi casters, seen FoTW ranged builds mow down EE bosses, etc...it's just that DC-based casting is bad enough in EE that Shiradi's lack of DC-reliance looks exploity in comparison.

[Kmnh]

Two things:

- The shiradi random procs say that they have a chance to proc one per spell or once per arrow, but the actual code makes them have a chance to proc per time the spell does damage. You can get a lot of procs from spells that do damage multiple times, like chain missles and meteor swarm. A shiradi sorcerer can spam these spells and hope for helplessness and instakill procs, and doing thgat is easier and cheaper than landing DC-based spells.

- Many arcane damage spells have a fixed level cap so the 5 caster levels from draconic and magister, which would normally be their main selling point, don't do anything. A shiradi sorcerer casts cone of cold, does the same damage that a magister or DI would and has a chance of proccing random stuff.

[maximus123123]

I agree with the other two posters. Shiradi casters aren't doing insane damage compared to melee and ranged characters. They are far more effective in end-game EE's than DC-based casters because the DC's are just too hard to reach on a lot of the enemies. I've seen LD and FoTW melee builds shame Shiradi casters, seen FoTW ranged builds mow down EE bosses, etc...it's just that DC-based casting is bad enough in EE that Shiradi's lack of DC-reliance looks exploity in comparison.

If you fix DC casting, sorcerers would shame FoTW ranged builds.
But I've seen FoTW ranged toons get shamed by melee as well on EE. Depends on the player's skill. Most who ask for nerfs are IMO not the top players or have well designed toons so they are making guesses about other people's builds, not basing it on real world information.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Seriously, why are so many casters taking Shiradi? Maybe it's just me, or maybe its because of the poor descriptions of epic destinies, but I don't see what all the hype is about, honestly.

I smell a nerf coming with all this talk, no offense. It just seems way too powerful with how people talk about it left and right.

The big reason why so many people are switching to Shiradi (myself included) isn't because it's overpowered ZOMG! LOOK AT ME SOLOING FoT! It's because the more traditional caster paths have been severely proxy nerfed. Once upon a time (i.e. in U16), I could contribute meaningfully in pretty much anything with my DC focused Wizard. He wasn't the most uber super-caster on the server, but he got the job done well enough that I enjoyed playing him. Today, he's just not worth bringing in the GH quests on Hard or Elite. I'll end up *much* better off bringing my Fighter or Monk and I just don't enjoy playing them as much as I enjoy my Wizard.

DC casters have a different performance scale than melee characters do. If one melee character has 10 less To Hit than another melee character, then they're still going to land close to the same number of hits in EE content. They will hit less, obviously, but it will still be close enough that they are making a real contribution. If they have half the total DPS, they still contribute because DPS between two characters stacks 100% when they're attacking the same enemy. DC casters don't stack with DPS the same way, however. When you have the DC to make spells land appropriately, then you can kill or disable enemies. When you don't have the DC, then those spells just ain't gonna land. There is no middle ground. If one DC caster has a DC that's 10 lower than another, then those two casters are not in the same league.

Shiradi turns every caster into a DPS caster. If you have the best Shiradi on the server, then you're a colossal nightmare that can take down the hardest quests with ease. If you're in the middle of the pack, you're not going to be soloing EE Gianthold quests, but you can still make a meaningful contribution in spite of the fact that you're not at the front of the pack.

[HungarianRhapsody]

- Many arcane damage spells have a fixed level cap so the 5 caster levels from draconic and magister, which would normally be their main selling point, don't do anything. A shiradi sorcerer casts cone of cold, does the same damage that a magister or DI would and has a chance of proccing random stuff.

This is a HUGE aspect of the attraction to Shiradi. When Magister and Draconic don't actually offer anything that's going to be useful to you, then Shiradi becomes much more attractive.

[bhgiant]

Right now you have ~3 options.

DPS Sorc vs EE mobs which have insanely high HP = SP dump
DC Wiz vs EE mobs which have insanely high saves = SP dump (debuffs, multiple attempts etc)
Shiradi Sorc/Wiz vs EE mobs = almost no SP (plus no save CC, comparable damage, and a chance for awesome affects like insta-kills)

It does what the other options do but for a fraction of the cost in SP. It's not that the damage output is so incredible, it's just more efficient.

[maximus123123]

Right now you have ~3 options.

DPS Sorc vs EE mobs which have insanely high HP = SP dump
DC Wiz vs EE mobs which have insanely high saves = SP dump (debuffs, multiple attempts etc)
Shiradi Sorc/Wiz vs EE mobs = almost no SP (plus no save CC, comparable damage, and a chance for awesome affects like insta-kills)

It does what the other options do but for a fraction of the cost in SP. It's not that the damage output is so incredible, it's just more efficient.

Nerf Shiradi Sorc/Wiz and what are you left with?

Once DC casting is fixed (either by toning down mob DC saves or upping DI and Magister spell DC and spell pen), Shiradi will be less alluring except for those who don't have multiple TR's into a caster and still want to be somewhat effective and have some fun on EEs. Nerf down Shiradi at all (like Nerve Venom for instance) and you will kill off this option even though CC casting with some caster past lives is far more powerful when it works right.

EDIT: There is one very important advantage to keeping Shiradi the way it is now while boosting DI and Magister. New non-TR casters would still be viable with Shiradi even if they are less sought after than CC casters. This is important for new players who don't have a lot of TR's into toons. Epic Destinies ought to make builds fully viable without a ton of TR's. TR should just be the icing on the cake so to speak.

[maximus123123]

I smell a nerf coming with all this talk, no offense. It just seems way too powerful with how people talk about it left and right.

See that's the problem.
Those who talk of a nerf often have no experience with it.

It is not massive DPS. It's sustained DPS (with a side of CC) without the need to drink constantly.
It's efficient not spectacular (except in those rare cases you proc the +50% joy of the queen with Tea, but that is very rare...and in those instances, its massive DPS is justifiable given it's rarity; and btw, it's the one thing that keeps me playing a Shiradi caster...the off chance of procing that specific Tea effect).

EDIT: Not to mention, the idea of slipping off to have some tea with the Queen of Summer is just such a cool concept...

[Darkrok]

It is not massive DPS. It's sustained DPS (with a side of CC) without the need to drink constantly.
It's efficient not spectacular (except in those rare cases you proc the +50% joy of the queen with Tea, but that is very rare...and in those instances, its massive DPS is justifiable given it's rarity; and btw, it's the one thing that keeps me playing a Shiradi caster...the off chance of procing that specific Tea effect).

EDIT: Not to mention, the idea of slipping off to have some tea with the Queen of Summer is just such a cool concept...

Well put! The sustained damage and button pressing to do that damage is what attracted me to the option. I loved my old AM Evoker from right when they came out with that option (pre-nerfs to cooldowns and the split of force and repair damage). Shiradi delivers on what that build did, makes the dps viable, and tosses in the added bonus of a bit of CC.

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've only gotten the rare proc 1 time. It seems like I'm always either 75% absorb, 100prr, or 300hp's. Usually the 300hp's. The time I did get it though was flippin' insane!

[maximus123123]

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've only gotten the rare proc 1 time. It seems like I'm always either 75% absorb, 100prr, or 300hp's. Usually the 300hp's. The time I did get it though was flippin' insane!

You haven't been unlucky. It's ultra rare (and ultra cool!).

[jalont]

Honestly, I wanted it nerfed before but after playing it for awhile, my selfishness says leave it alone :P. No matter what they lower saves too, I wouldn't switch out. Shiradi allows you to dump everything that makes a caster a caster, and spend those resources on other build aspects, while still being a great caster.

[maximus123123]

Honestly, I wanted it nerfed before but after playing it for awhile, my selfishness says leave it alone :P. No matter what they lower saves too, I wouldn't switch out. Shiradi allows you to dump everything that makes a caster a caster, and spend those resources on other build aspects, while still being a great caster.

Which, incidentally, makes it great for new players who want to play casters but don't have a ton of TR's into their wizard or sorcerer.

Once DC casting is brought down from the ridiculous levels they're at (or alternatively Magister and DI get innate increases to DC's and spell pen), I suspect many if not most casters will switch to those. Shiradi is still fun for the reasons mentioned above as well as Superman mode from the rare Joy of the Queen proc and even rarer Indulgence of the Mad Queen.

EDIT: The +50% procs from Audience with the Queen is an absolute adreniline rush. It's addictive and what video games should be all about...

[knightgf]

Ok, so it seems audiance with the queen is one point of being a shiradi. Isn't there anything else? Seems kinda limited if you ask me...

[maximus123123]

Ok, so it seems audiance with the queen is one point of being a shiradi. Isn't there anything else? Seems kinda limited if you ask me...

Get Double Rainbow and maxed out Nerve Venom.
Use Magic Missiles, Force Missiles, and Chain Missiles (the last one when there's more than one mob).
You will chain procs together from all the missiles going thereby doing more damage than expected.
You will also paralyze one or two mobs at a time allowing them to be safely dispatched by the other members of the party.

Max out Healing Spring and give that out (you'll get three clicks) and you've also just helped the party with occasional healing (every 30 seconds).

You can also throw in occasional Meteor Swarms for added DPS.

All the other caster abilities still apply (buffs, debuffs, clouds, etc.) but you don't have to invest overly heavily in Charisma or Intelligence thereby opening up a lot more build concepts.

And then there's Audience with the Queen...

[jalont]

Get Double Rainbow and maxed out Nerve Venom.
Use Magic Missiles, Force Missiles, and Chain Missiles (the last one when there's more than one mob).
You will chain procs together from all the missiles going thereby doing more damage than expected.
You will also paralyze one or two mobs at a time allowing them to be safely dispatched by the other members of the party.

Max out Healing Spring and give that out (you'll get three clicks) and you've also just helped the party with occasional healing (every 30 seconds).

You can also throw in occasional Meteor Swarms for added DPS.

All the other caster abilities still apply (buffs, debuffs, clouds, etc.) but you don't have to invest overly heavily in Charisma or Intelligence thereby opening up a lot more build concepts.

And then there's Audience with the Queen...

Yep, meanwhile dropping all spell focus/spell pen feats, and maybe even all metas... though I have to play around more to see about metas and a sorc.

[maximus123123]

Yep, meanwhile dropping all spell focus/spell pen feats, and maybe even all metas... though I have to play around more to see about metas and a sorc.

Well, you'll need a minimum on your main stat to get up to lvl nine spells.

You'll want Quicken if you are a WF caster and want uninterruptable Reconstruct.
You'll also want Maximize and Empower for recontsruct and for the occasional superfast but very dangerous encounters where you want to end it fast and are not concerned about spell point usage.

If you do FoT, you'll want Enlarge.

You'll still need Extend for Rage, Haste, Blur, and Displacement on yourself (4 minute displacements beat 2 minute ones for sanity sake).

You can dump Heighten though.

EDIT: Despite the fact that you don't need charisma or intelligence, I'd advise investing in it as you would a normal caster anyway (maxing it out on creation, during stat increases on level ups, and gear). This way you can still use things like Knock and Meteor Swarm and possibly other spells.

[Dendrix]

If my shiradi destiny was not broke I could find out.

Here I am with negative fifty nine thousand destiny points in it, when I should be positive fourteen.

(a Lesser Reincarnate "broke" my character half way when I could no longer level up, the GM mostly fixed it, but ended up breaking my shiradi destiny. Been waiting over a week for them to finally fix me up)

[SealedInSong]

Two things:

- The shiradi random procs say that they have a chance to proc one per spell or once per arrow, but the actual code makes them have a chance to proc per time the spell does damage. You can get a lot of procs from spells that do damage multiple times, like chain missles and meteor swarm. A shiradi sorcerer can spam these spells and hope for helplessness and instakill procs, and doing thgat is easier and cheaper than landing DC-based spells.

- Many arcane damage spells have a fixed level cap so the 5 caster levels from draconic and magister, which would normally be their main selling point, don't do anything. A shiradi sorcerer casts cone of cold, does the same damage that a magister or DI would and has a chance of proccing random stuff.

Well-stated. Particularly the latter portion; even a Tier3 Shiradi first lifer is going to perform more efficiently than a Tier5 Magister or Draconic Incarnation simply because the two legitimate "arcane" destinies don't shore up caster deficiencies when they need to.

[anivaj]

Nerf Shiradi Sorc/Wiz and what are you left with?

Once DC casting is fixed (either by toning down mob DC saves or upping DI and Magister spell DC and spell pen), Shiradi will be less alluring except for those who don't have multiple TR's into a caster and still want to be somewhat effective and have some fun on EEs. Nerf down Shiradi at all (like Nerve Venom for instance) and you will kill off this option even though CC casting with some caster past lives is far more powerful when it works right.

EDIT: There is one very important advantage to keeping Shiradi the way it is now while boosting DI and Magister. New non-TR casters would still be viable with Shiradi even if they are less sought after than CC casters. This is important for new players who don't have a lot of TR's into toons. Epic Destinies ought to make builds fully viable without a ton of TR's. TR should just be the icing on the cake so to speak.

Nerve venom quite honestly is WAY too powerful as it is. Make it proc once per spell, then it might be reasonable, but allowing someone to throw one chain missile and have a better than 50/50 chance of no save stunning them for +50% damage for 6 seconds is just stupid. It requires NO investment, no feat, no enhancements, no spell items. Compared to a DC caster that needs all of the above AND debuffs to get the same or less effect.

Nerf nerve venom to either not work with spells OR only one proc per spell, then lower mob saves to make it easier to CC them with DCs and all will be right with the world :D

[anivaj]

Yep, meanwhile dropping all spell focus/spell pen feats, and maybe even all metas... though I have to play around more to see about metas and a sorc.

Yes, dump any kind of investment at all into an arcane and take the easy button of Shiradi. You guys REALLY dont see a nerf coming for something that requires ZERO effort?

[HungarianRhapsody]

Yes, dump any kind of investment at all into an arcane and take the easy button of Shiradi. You guys REALLY dont see a nerf coming for something that requires ZERO effort?

Since we're likely to get an LR when the Enhancement update comes, it seems entirely reasonable to do so.

I didn't drop my DC spell feats because I *like* my DC spells, but I absolutely understand why someone else might do so.

[SirValentine]

Once DC casting is fixed (either by toning down mob DC saves or upping DI and Magister spell DC and spell pen), Shiradi will be less alluring


I'm all for fixing DC-casting, but buffing Magister doesn't help the problem at all. Magister isn't helpful for the many DC casters who can't get any casting stat or caster levels from it.

[maximus123123]

Nerve venom quite honestly is WAY too powerful as it is. Make it proc once per spell, then it might be reasonable, but allowing someone to throw one chain missile and have a better than 50/50 chance of no save stunning them for +50% damage for 6 seconds is just stupid. It requires NO investment, no feat, no enhancements, no spell items. Compared to a DC caster that needs all of the above AND debuffs to get the same or less effect.

Nerf nerve venom to either not work with spells OR only one proc per spell, then lower mob saves to make it easier to CC them with DCs and all will be right with the world :D

All I hear is:


NERF THEM! BUFF ME!

[anivaj]

All I hear is:

That is all you hear because you probably enjoy easy buttons and don't care about balance.

[gerardIII]

My TR Palemaster used to be very good CC/instakill in pre-MotU epic, now he can't do anything as a Magister in Epic Elite.

[maximus123123]

That is all you hear because you probably enjoy easy buttons and don't care about balance.

You believe it's overpowered for the investment it takes.
I believe it's balanced just right especially for new players who want to play casters and aren't about to grind out thirteen past lives for spell pen and DC's.

In EE, it feels balanced just perfectly as is. It doesn't make EE's easy but it makes them slightly easier.

But you are right about one thing...a nerf will probably be coming, not because it's overpowered or not fun to play but because people like you are asking for it and Turbine is highly reactive to calls for nerfs.

BTW. I don't see a lot of LFM's that hold a position for a Shiradi caster.
I used to always see LFM's that held out for CC casters sometimes for almost an hour before DC casting was toned down.
So if that's any indication of OverPowered, CC casting was definitely that. Only the healer spot was more sought after than CC, but not by far...

[anivaj]

You believe it's overpowered for the investment it takes.
I believe it's balanced just right especially for new players who want to play casters and aren't about to grind out thirteen past lives for spell pen and DC's.

In EE, it feels balanced just perfectly as is. It doesn't make EE's easy but it makes them slightly easier.

But you are right about one thing...a nerf will probably be coming, not because it's overpowered or not fun to play but because people like you are asking for it and Turbine is highly reactive to calls for nerfs.

BTW. I don't see a lot of LFM's that hold a position for a Shiradi caster.
I used to always see LFM's that held out for CC casters sometimes for almost an hour before DC casting was toned down.
So if that's any indication of OverPowered, CC casting was definitely that. Only the healer spot was more sought after than CC, but not by far...

I'm sorry but first life DC casters were only 1 DC behind TRed casters (except for evoc and conj). However, to be viable they still needed to invest in feats, enhancements, and grind the gear. (They were behind on spell pen, but not enough that you HAD to TR with some non SR spells still being viable.) Having a first life caster that invests heavily to get good DCs be able to CC reliably with all that focus is good game design. Giving an ED an easy button for absolutely no investment at all is NOT good game design. Anyone fighting for nerve venom just doesnt want their easy button removed...

[maximus123123]

I'm sorry but first life DC casters were only 1 DC behind TRed casters (except for evoc and conj). However, to be viable they still needed to invest in feats, enhancements, and grind the gear. (They were behind on spell pen, but not enough that you HAD to TR with some non SR spells still being viable.) Having a first life caster that invests heavily to get good DCs be able to CC reliably with all that focus is good game design. Giving an ED an easy button for absolutely no investment at all is NOT good game design. Anyone fighting for nerve venom just doesnt want their easy button removed...

Investing feats into DC's is actually less of a grind than grinding out an Epic Destiny especially for a wizard that can get five extra feats for that purpose.

Gear is not as difficult a grind as you make it out to be (Twilight staff).

It's actually probably a good thing that DC casting was nerfed. It was getting kind of crazy waiting nearly an hour as the party leader carefully weeded through caster applications till the perfect purple squirrel was located.

[anivaj]

Investing feats into DC's is actually less of a grind than grinding out an Epic Destiny especially for a wizard that can get five extra feats for that purpose.

Gear is not as difficult a grind as you make it out to be (Twilight staff).

It's actually probably a good thing that DC casting was nerfed. It was getting kind of crazy waiting nearly an hour as the party leader carefully weeded through caster applications till the perfect purple squirrel was located.

Hmmm.....you either primarily play melee or shiradi sorcs.
1) I've run CitW over 100 times and never saw Twilight fall, even for someone else.
2) I'm sorry but getting to Shiradi from the arcane sphere and capping it is NOT that hard.
3) Feats are not a "grind", they are an investment. Nerve venom takes zero investment except 3 ED points, which are easily managable.
4) Why when DC casting comes up do people always think we are talking about only arcanes.

Before EDs and eGH, any casting class could get good endgame DCs on a first life toon. Now it is very difficult for other classes besides wizards to afford the feat investment for anything but one school, making them inefficient at anything else.

As for the fear of having to wait on an uber DC caster, that is clearly not the case currently in EEs. A lot of different party combinations can pass EEs if they work together and use good tactics. A great CC caster is only needed if the party is gimp to begin with. I quite honestly enjoyed assisting newer players through old epics on my wizard, but apparently a lot of the team players left DDO while a lot of the selfish, "I want to lead the kill count" players stayed and are playing Shiradi sorcs :(

[knightgf]

So, if I read this right, the main power of Shiradi is that with all the 5-7% chance at extra damage buffs with quantity spells like MM, it can be a highly-damaging Epic Destiny. Honestly, now that I understand it a bit more, it may not be as worthy of a nerf as some believe. In fact, I think its a great idea, but the problem is DC casting, as many have said, is near-worthless with Epic Gianthold. But I honestly am not certain, its all a big mess if you ask me, and I can't sort it out.

[maximus123123]

1) I've run CitW over 100 times and never saw Twilight fall, even for someone else.

Before EDs and eGH, any casting class could get good endgame DCs on a first life toon.

I find it hard to believe Twilight didn't fall in 100 runs.
I've run CITW 60 times and have seen it drop multiple times and on 20th's.
So I call BS.

It's not just about DC's but also spell pen. The problem was never DC's for the reason you could up them with items, your primary stat, and feats. CC casters also had to go through Wizard and FvS lives to be viable.
This is what Shiradi currently gives new players who might otherwise quit playing casters or quit DDO due to the grind requirements.

Epic Destinies should (as Shiradi does) make a non-TR toon viable end game.

[anivaj]

I find it hard to believe Twilight didn't fall in 100 runs.
I've run CITW 60 times and have seen it drop multiple times and on 20th's.
So I call BS.

You do realize what random means right? And I didnt get any 20s as these runs were spread between numerous lives and toons.

It's not just about DC's but also spell pen. The problem was never DC's for the reason you could up them with items, your primary stat, and feats. CC casters also had to go through Wizard and FvS lives to be viable.
This is what Shiradi currently gives new players who might otherwise quit playing casters or quit DDO due to the grind requirements.

This statement further clarifies to me that you have never played a DC caster at endgame. There are numerous spells that bypass SR as long as you have decent DCs. Players that quit because they don't look for other options besides mashing the same 4-5 spells all day are not missed by most of the DDO populace. First life casters that were played intelligently were extremely viable in old epics.


Responses in red...

Also, you are advocating for making it EASY for new players or people too lazy to put effort into their toons. Handing new 1st life or lazy players an OPed ED and letting them be uber without any thought or effort is not why I was attracted to DDO. Tactics, planning, coordination, and yes some grinding is expected if you want to be viable in end game content. Otherwise, you are just asking for an easy button, plain and simple...

[jalont]

Epic Destinies should (as Shiradi does) make a non-TR toon viable end game.

I don't necessarily disagree, just wonder why you think this.

[Artos_Fabril]

EE GH mobs saves is too high. Which made lot of EDs that focused/have DC abilities seem bad right now. Fix saves, boost weak ED like unyieling, etc. and it will solve the problem, no need to nerf anything. :)


I agree with the other two posters. Shiradi casters aren't doing insane damage compared to melee and ranged characters. They are far more effective in end-game EE's than DC-based casters because the DC's are just too hard to reach on a lot of the enemies. I've seen LD and FoTW melee builds shame Shiradi casters, seen FoTW ranged builds mow down EE bosses, etc...it's just that DC-based casting is bad enough in EE that Shiradi's lack of DC-reliance looks exploity in comparison.


Nerf Shiradi Sorc/Wiz and what are you left with?

Once DC casting is fixed (either by toning down mob DC saves or upping DI and Magister spell DC and spell pen), Shiradi will be less alluring except for those who don't have multiple TR's into a caster and still want to be somewhat effective and have some fun on EEs. Nerf down Shiradi at all (like Nerve Venom for instance) and you will kill off this option even though CC casting with some caster past lives is far more powerful when it works right.

EDIT: There is one very important advantage to keeping Shiradi the way it is now while boosting DI and Magister. New non-TR casters would still be viable with Shiradi even if they are less sought after than CC casters. This is important for new players who don't have a lot of TR's into toons. Epic Destinies ought to make builds fully viable without a ton of TR's. TR should just be the icing on the cake so to speak.

I wonder if the DCs being currently prohibitively high is because they were balanced against a build of the game running the enhancement pass: A Pale Master with a secondary PrE as a Necromancy Archmage would have significantly less trouble hitting those insta-kill DCs.

[anivaj]

I don't necessarily disagree, just wonder why you think this.

I don't disagree either. 1st life toons shouldnt be that much weaker than multiple TRs. What the poster apparently has no clue of is that they WERE extremely viable even before EDs, as long as they didnt expect to mash the same 4-5 buttons all day. Hence the beauty of DDO BEFORE EDs and eGH...

[maximus123123]

Also, you are advocating for making it EASY for new players or people too lazy to put effort into their toons. Handing new 1st life or lazy players an OPed ED and letting them be uber without any thought or effort is not why I was attracted to DDO. Tactics, planning, coordination, and yes some grinding is expected if you want to be viable in end game content. Otherwise, you are just asking for an easy button, plain and simple...

Because it's sooo difficult to select this feat over that feat when building a DC caster....

Tactics, planning and coordination are required whether you play a DC caster or a Shiradi caster.

A good player is still a good player with either. The difference is, one requires a pretty hefty grind while the other does not and that has you upset.

Epic Destinies ought to make first life toons viable end game (TRs only being the icing on the cake). It should be about player skill not how much free time you have on your hands to grind !

[anivaj]

I wonder if the DCs being currently prohibitively high is because they were balanced against a build of the game running the enhancement pass: A Pale Master with a secondary PrE as a Necromancy Archmage would have significantly less trouble hitting those insta-kill DCs.

Two more DC is not going to make a world of difference with these high DCs. I think they must have balanced DCs against a monk's stunning fist, because not much else is able to reliably reach them.

[jalont]

I wonder if the DCs being currently prohibitively high is because they were balanced against a build of the game running the enhancement pass: A Pale Master with a secondary PrE as a Necromancy Archmage would have significantly less trouble hitting those insta-kill DCs.

This is probably very true. I don't think they set out to nerf DC casters. There will be a time where, through gear/enhancement pass/EDs, DC casters will be able to faceroll eGH without the need to lower saves.

[maximus123123]

I don't necessarily disagree, just wonder why you think this.

I think TRing was THE end game for a while (when there was no other end game).
Now that Turbine is pumping out more new end game content, that no longer has to be the case.

Also, a lot of people have three or four mains mainly because of the grind expected. It would be nice (especially nice for new players) if we could make all sorts of toons that Epic Destinies could then be used to fill the gap on missing gear and past lives. If you have the gear and past lives, well then you're even better. But it shouldn't all be a huge grind on multiple levels.

At some point it's got to be about a player's ability to play the game not just the gear and past lives which are more symptomatic of someone with a LOT of time on their hands than skill playing a game.

[anivaj]

Because it's sooo difficult to select this feat over that feat when building a DC caster....

Tactics, planning and coordination are required whether you play a DC caster or a Shiradi caster.

A good player is still a good player with either. The difference is, one requires a pretty hefty grind while the other does that not and that has you upset.

Epic Destinies ought to make first life toons viable end game (TRs only being the icing on the cake). It should be about player skill not how much free time you have on your hands to grind !

AGAIN! 1st life DC toons ARE viable without the easy button of Shiradi and without a ton of grind. I'm sorry if you want to start a toon from scratch and dominate the game in less than a week. If that is your preference you can always go play Xbox...

[maximus123123]

AGAIN! 1st life DC toons ARE viable without the easy button of Shiradi and without a ton of grind. I'm sorry if you want to start a toon from scratch and dominate the game in less than a week. If that is your preference you can always go play Xbox...

Go do CITW !

[anivaj]

I think TRing was THE end game for a while (when there was no other end game).
Now that Turbine is pumping out more new end game content, that no longer has to be the case.

Also, a lot of people have three or four mains mainly because of the grind expected. It would be nice (especially nice for new players) if we could make all sorts of toons that Epic Destinies could then be ussed to fill the gap on missing gear and past lives. If you have the gear and past lives, well then you're even better. But it shouldn't all be a huge grind on multiple levels.

At some point it's got to be about a player's ability to play the game not just the gear and past lives which are more symptomatic of someone with a LOT of time on their hands than skill playing a game.

If you want to dominate the game in a few weeks, then feel free to take Shiradi. Winning at an MMO should not take a few weeks...

You keep acting like it was required to have 12 past lives to play a DC caster effectively which shows you have no clue how to play a 1st life caster :p

[maximus123123]

If you want to dominate the game in a few weeks, then feel free to take Shiradi. Winning at an MMO should not take a few weeks...

You keep acting like it was required to have 12 past lives to play a DC caster effectively which shows you have no clue how to play a 1st life caster :p

I Win !

You Win too since it apparently takes just as long to make a DC caster !

[anivaj]

I Win !

You Win too since it apparently takes just as long to make a DC caster !

Even if it did take the same amount of time, which it doesnt, shiradi sorcs require no intelligent use of abilities or spells. They just spam the same thing over and over. DC casters, if played correctly, require a lot more thought and tactics. (AND investment)

TL:DR It takes much more skill, knowledge, and play time to be a great DC caster than to be a Shiradi sorc.

[Viconiax]

I wonder if the DCs being currently prohibitively high is because they were balanced against a build of the game running the enhancement pass: A Pale Master with a secondary PrE as a Necromancy Archmage would have significantly less trouble hitting those insta-kill DCs.

From what I heard/read from forums/wiki, with the new enhancement pass, you can get stats from all of your PrE trees, and their tree enhancement stat stack up with each other, that probably be it.

[Viconiax]

Even if it did take the same amount of time, which it doesnt, shiradi sorcs require no intelligent use of abilities or spells. They just spam the same thing over and over. DC casters, if played correctly, require a lot more thought and tactics. (AND investment)

TL:DR It takes much more skill, knowledge, and play time to be a great DC caster than to be a Shiradi sorc.

Shiradi sorc required players skill:

Make the right build - make the build that fit you - I saw many shiradi casters before, not all of them are OP.

Get good hp: Spent time and investment to farm hp items, which boost your survival. When a shiradi got overwhelmed by a large number of ee mobs, even their chain missiles/meteor can't save them. You can't deal 10k+ dmg often without meta or joy/indulgence on. And no, nerve venom the entire room happen very rarely.

Get spellpower to the max - This make you have to spend time and investment to farm your spellpower item. It's like you never seen a twilight in about 100 CitW run. I got my on my 3rd run though, I saw 6-7 drop out of every 20 runs.

Get high sp pool - a shiradi is only deal massive DPS when they have meta on or when they have joy/indulgence on. And this meant you have to spent time and investment to farm sp item like conc-opp, sp item, torch, stats items, etc.

Sometimes things don't work out perfectly - the only real source of shiradi damage came from innates and some (not a lot) come from double rainbow, and sometimes you get overwhelmed by large number of mobs and your cc doesn't proc/work (ee tor giant immune to never venom). And this mean you have to have some other abilities/spells to back it up. Ex. EE PoP Marut room: this inevitable have a really high resistance to spells damage and also have the ability to dispell/stun while undead mobs attacking you. So spells doesn't work in there good. Another example: undead: they immune to nerve venom.

It required a LOT of skill to solo ee on a shiradi: been there, done that, I tried to solo ee on shiradi before, I know how it is. It even take more skill to do it without pots/re-enter, any casters, yes even divine, can solo ee easily if they re-entering/chunking pots a lot. P.S. There is already an arti with around 620 hp solo like all ee, should we nerf arti now? ;) No.

Using the right stragety (using intelligence): It's like how Shataan solo ee raids, he is the master of finding safe spot in the quest environment so he don't take LOT of damage while doing ee. It require the knowledge of the quest and how the quest and mobs AI work.

We should throw a first life shiradi into ee FoT without decent gears farming/time investment to see how he does. I bet they will die REALLY fast, the spamming of mm won't save you from lightning bomb attack + debuff or 3 undead dragons on you at same time. And without investing time in farming spell absorb like ioun/jeweled cloak, they will die even faster.

They also spend lot of time to leveling their toon to 25, farming ED, and farm decent gears for themselves. They're also smart enough to figure out that DC-based ED like DI and Magister is not so good right now.

P.S.S. There is a button of winning in store already. :)

[anivaj]

Shiradi sorc required players skill:

Make the right build - make the build that fit you - I saw many shiradi casters before, not all of them are OP.

Get good hp: Spent time and investment to farm hp items, which boost your survival. When a shiradi got overwhelmed by a large number of ee mobs, even their chain missiles/meteor can't save them. You can't deal 10k+ dmg often without meta or joy/indulgence on. And no, nerve venom the entire room happen very rarely.

Get spellpower to the max - This make you have to spend time and investment to farm your spellpower item. It's like you never seen a twilight in about 100 CitW run. I got my on my 3rd run though, I saw 6-7 drop out of every 20 runs.

Get high sp pool - a shiradi is only deal massive DPS when they have meta on or when they have joy/indulgence on. And this meant you have to spent time and investment to farm sp item like conc-opp, sp item, torch, stats items, etc.

Sometimes things don't work out perfectly - the only real source of shiradi damage came from innates and some (not a lot) come from double rainbow, and sometimes you get overwhelmed by large number of mobs and your cc doesn't proc/work (ee tor giant immune to never venom). And this mean you have to have some other abilities/spells to back it up. Ex. EE PoP Marut room: this inevitable have a really high resistance to spells damage and also have the ability to dispell/stun while undead mobs attacking you. So spells doesn't work in there good. Another example: undead: they immune to nerve venom.

It required a LOT of skill to solo ee on a shiradi: been there, done that, I tried to solo ee on shiradi before, I know how it is. It even take more skill to do it without pots/re-enter, any casters, yes even divine, can solo ee easily if they re-entering/chunking pots a lot. P.S. There is already an arti with around 620 hp solo like all ee, should we nerf arti now? ;) No.

Using the right stragety (using intelligence): It's like how Shataan solo ee raids, he is the master of finding safe spot in the quest environment so he don't take LOT of damage while doing ee. It require the knowledge of the quest and how the quest and mobs AI work.

We should throw a first life shiradi into ee FoT without decent gears farming/time investment to see how he does. I bet they will die REALLY fast, the spamming of mm won't save you from lightning bomb attack + debuff or 3 undead dragons on you at same time. And without investing time in farming spell absorb like ioun/jeweled cloak, they will die even faster.

They also spend lot of time to leveling their toon to 25, farming ED, and farm decent gears for themselves. They're also smart enough to figure out that DC-based ED like DI and Magister is not so good right now.

P.S.S. There is a button of winning in store already. :)

Yes some of the grind for Shiradi is there, but you can't honestly believe Shiradi has as much to learn to play them effectively as a well played DC wizard...

I'm cool with Shiradi being an option if people enjoy it, but nerve venom giving +50% damage and immobilizing them for 6 seconds with no save AND no resave makes it a better ability than mass hold which requires a save AND a resave every 2 seconds. Saying nerve venom isnt the majority of the power of Shiradi is just false. This coming from a guy that TRed out of Shiradi sorc/pally because I found it WAY too easy and boring. Ask any monk, +50% damage is amazing, especially if you twist in sense weakness...

[anivaj]

From what I heard/read from forums/wiki, with the new enhancement pass, you can get stats from all of your PrE trees, and their tree enhancement stat stack up with each other, that probably be it.

Which will give an extra 2 DC to wizards and leave all other casting classes that much further behind...

If all this leads to Turbine doing to DCs what they did to AC, that would make A LOT of casters leave the class or the game.

[danzig138]

don't care about balance.In my experience, most of the people around here who like to throw the word "balance" around, have no idea what that actually means. You are not disproving that perception.

[anivaj]

In my experience, most of the people around here who like to throw the word "balance" around, have no idea what that actually means. You are not disproving that perception.

Hmmmm....so when all arcane casters flock to one ED, that doesnt at least imply that it is not balanced. I see now why you have your reputation disabled :P

[twigzz]

Hmmmm....so when all arcane casters flock to one ED, that doesnt at least imply that it is not balanced. I see now why you have your reputation disabled :P

Not everyone takes Shiradi. I have a couple casters not in Shiradi. *shrugs*

[anivaj]

Not everyone takes Shiradi. I have a couple casters not in Shiradi. *shrugs*

The LARGE majority of casters that run endgame EEs are Shiradi....this is fact.

[Infant]

Why do people keep insisting that DI is not an EE-viable destiny?

I see the problem with DC-based wizards in EE GH. The saves are simply too high.

But from personal experience (playing a first-life easybutton WF Earth Savant), DI is perfectly viable in EE. Its not like you are going to easily solo EEs, but you can definitely pull your weight in a group.

And stop arguing that Shiradi is good because its the only possible caster destiny for a new player. Sorcs are still easier to build and gear than most classes.

[maximus123123]

This coming from a guy that TRed out of Shiradi sorc/pally because I found it WAY too easy and boring.

I put the above statement in the same category as this:


I've run CitW over 100 times and never saw Twilight fall, even for someone else.


mhmmm ;)

[anivaj]

I put the above statement in the same category as this:



mhmmm ;)

I have no clue what you are implying here...

[anivaj]

Why do people keep insisting that DI is not an EE-viable destiny?

I see the problem with DC-based wizards in EE GH. The saves are simply too high.

But from personal experience (playing a first-life easybutton WF Earth Savant), DI is perfectly viable in EE. Its not like you are going to easily solo EEs, but you can definitely pull your weight in a group.

And stop arguing that Shiradi is good because its the only possible caster destiny for a new player. Sorcs are still easier to build and gear than most classes.

If DI abilities had no save, like the easy button nerve venom in Shiradi, I would agree that DI is a good EE destiny. As it is with the high saves, energy burst doing 1/2 damage (or none with evaders) does not make it that appealing compared to Shiradi.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Hmmmm....so when all arcane casters flock to one ED, that doesnt at least imply that it is not balanced. I see now why you have your reputation disabled :P

Shiradi is absolutely not balanced with Draconic and Magister. That doesn't mean that Shiradi is massively overpowered, however. It means that Draconic and Magister offer very few benefits and most of the "benefits" that they do offer either don't work or don't do anything.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

While i agree shiradi is absolutely great for soloing, has great single target dps and can get a bunch of kill counts in group... It is my oppinion that in an average quest, in a full party, their dps is very low compared to an DI sorc bursting, breathing, banging.

I wonder if i missed something and am totally wrong?

[ssternlight]

How does a first life pure Archmage Wizard get to Shiradi to begin with? It's two spheres away from Magister and DI. I can see that the first adjacent sphere opens up at ED 4. Is the idea that I have to subsequently choose a new destiny from the new sphere, push to level 4 there and then have access to the Shiradi sphere? Seems like quite the grind...

[HungarianRhapsody]

How does a first life pure Archmage Wizard get to Shiradi to begin with? It's two spheres away from Magister and DI. I can see that the first adjacent sphere opens up at ED 4. Is the idea that I have to subsequently choose a new destiny from the new sphere, push to level 4 there and then have access to the Shiradi sphere? Seems like quite the grind...

It is. Don't run House of Rusted Blades more than twice until you have enough Epic XP to take level 25 (because of the XP limit mechanism at cap, you can remain level 23 while standing at "Maximum Epic XP achieved" if you don't want to take levels 24 or 25). At that point, you can run all of the best XP/minute quests until your eyes bleed to pick up the millions and millions of XP requried to wander around the spheres to hit Shiradi. You may also want to take a trip over to Exalted Angel to twist in Endless Faith. It's another couple of million XP on top of what you already are grinding, but it's a very nice twist for 10% more SP and a bigger Echoes of Power refresh.

[anivaj]

While i agree shiradi is absolutely great for soloing, has great single target dps and can get a bunch of kill counts in group... It is my oppinion that in an average quest, in a full party, their dps is very low compared to an DI sorc bursting, breathing, banging.

I wonder if i missed something and am totally wrong?

In EH or below, DI is godly. In EEs, due to the high saves, Shiradis rule. Mobs constantly saving vs your bursts for half or no damage (evaders) makes DI subpar in EEs.

[anivaj]

Shiradi is absolutely not balanced with Draconic and Magister. That doesn't mean that Shiradi is massively overpowered, however. It means that Draconic and Magister offer very few benefits and most of the "benefits" that they do offer either don't work or don't do anything.

Shiradi is only marginally OPed. If they reduced Nerve Venom to work per spell instead of per hit, Shiradi would be perfectly balanced. Then they would just need to buff DI and magister to make them better.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Shiradi is only marginally OPed. If they reduced Nerve Venom to work per spell instead of per hit, Shiradi would be perfectly balanced. Then they would just need to buff DI and magister to make them better.

I don't think that Nerve Venom is that big of a deal, but I might also just not be all that good at using it. :) I do agree with your post as a whole, however, and I wouldn't cry if that change to Nerve Venom were made.

[maximus123123]

Shiradi is only marginally OPed. If they reduced Nerve Venom to work per spell instead of per hit, Shiradi would be perfectly balanced. Then they would just need to buff DI and magister to make them better.

Some posters mistake their *opinions* for fact.
It is your opinion that nerfing Nerve Venom would make it balanced.

It is my opinion that it's already balanced.
Nerfing Nerve Venom would, IMO, make Shiradi casters as underwhelming as Magister and DI currently.

If you nerf Shiradi while boosting Magister and DI, then you've just made it so that no one would have an incentive to remain in Shiradi as a caster. But, then again, that's the whole point of your posts.

I believe there should be a real struggle as to which to take because they're all so good in different ways. Leave Shiradi as is and boost the others. Shiradi is nowhere near overpowered, IMO. It feels just perfectly balanced for EEs. Not too powerful, not too gimped.

[Viconiax]

Remember that nerve venom is only 7% at its max tier, with mm it's still only 35% to proc and it can only hit 1 mob. Compare it to mass hold monsters that can hold multiple mobs at same time if we don't have DC problem, mass hold monsters win.

[anivaj]

Remember that nerve venom is only 7% at its max tier, with mm it's still only 35% to proc and it can only hit 1 mob. Compare it to mass hold monsters that can hold multiple mobs at same time if we don't have DC problem, mass hold monsters win.

Look in to how chain missiles works then get back to me ;)

[anivaj]

Some posters mistake their *opinions* for fact.
It is your opinion that nerfing Nerve Venom would make it balanced.

It is my opinion that it's already balanced.
Nerfing Nerve Venom would, IMO, make Shiradi casters as underwhelming as Magister and DI currently.

If you nerf Shiradi while boosting Magister and DI, then you've just made it so that no one would have an incentive to remain in Shiradi as a caster. But, then again, that's the whole point of your posts.

I believe there should be a real struggle as to which to take because they're all so good in different ways. Leave Shiradi as is and boost the others. Shiradi is nowhere near overpowered, IMO. It feels just perfectly balanced for EEs. Not too powerful, not too gimped.

It is utterly apparent that nerve venom proccing ten times on a chain missile and even more procs on secondary hits is Oped. Only someone who loves the easy button that is nerve venom would say it is balanced. If you really think that reducing nerve venom to proc per spell would make casters run away from Shiradi, then you dont know why people currently play in Shiradi. It offers efficient DPS which will be needed in EEs, even without FREE CC with no investment or skill (nerve venom chain missiles).

[maximus123123]

A caster able to lock down one or at most two mobs by continually attacking it can hardly be called overpowered.

On the otherhand a mass hold capable of holding a dozen mobs with a single attack, that could easily be seen as OP.

I honestly hope we do not go back to the days when DC casters using CC ruled.
I hated that every party had to have one and that many party leaders would wait to get at least one.

With it nerfed down the way it is now, you fill a party with whatever you get and go...

Much better this way IMO.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Only someone who loves the easy button that is nerve venom would say it is balanced.

This reminds me of the "LIKE if you love your grandmother! Scroll past if you want her to die!" posts on Facebook.

[Viconiax]

Look in to how chain missiles works then get back to me ;)

Chain missiles only proc 10 additional missiles when they hit, it may look nice when u look at it mathematically because it would be 77% proc, but since it explode to hit randomly target, it not really that op.

EDIT: Which decrease the proc chance per target

[anivaj]

A caster able to lock down one or at most two mobs by continually attacking it can hardly be called overpowered.

On the otherhand a mass hold capable of holding a dozen mobs with a single attack, that could easily be seen as OP.

I honestly hope we do not go back to the days when DC casters using CC ruled.
I hated that every party had to have one and that many party leaders would wait to get at least one.

With it nerfed down the way it is now, you fill a party with whatever you get and go...

Much better this way IMO.

Locking down one monster with no save is still OPed when it involves no investment. Monks can lock down one target with stunning fist, BUT it takes tons of investment.

As for the Mass Hold comparison, Hold takes a ton of investment AND the mob gets a save EVERY TWO SECONDS, while nerve venom gets no save for 6 seconds. And if you don't think Shiradis can lock down more than one target, then apparently you have not used the chain missile spell... Become an evoker AM and you can fire them off one after another.

[anivaj]

Chain missiles only proc 10 additional missiles when they hit, it may look nice when u look at it mathematically because it would be 77% proc, but since it explode to hit randomly target, it not really that op.

It is also extremely spammable, especially for an evoker AM. I have played a shiradi caster and from experience I can honestly say nerve venom with the right spells is an easy button that takes absolutely no investment, which is fine if you want to dominate with no skill.

[maximus123123]

chain missile spell... Become an evoker AM and you can fire them off one after another.

The one with the 8 second cooldown you mean?
Wow. Now that is overpowered !

Evocation III - Chain Missiles
◦Usage: Active
◦Cost: 1 action points
◦Progression: 43 action points
◦Requires All of: Archmage III, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation, Evocation II - Gust of Wind
◦Available to Wizard class level 12
◦You have committed the spell Chain Missiles permanently to memory as a spell-like ability. Using this ability costs you 10 spell points. Purchasing this enhancement will reduce your maximum spell point total by 50. Has 8 seconds cooldown.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Locking down one monster with no save is still OPed when it involves no investment. Monks can lock down one target with stunning fist, BUT it takes tons of investment.

As for the Mass Hold comparison, Hold takes a ton of investment AND the mob gets a save EVERY TWO SECONDS, while nerve venom gets no save for 6 seconds. And if you don't think Shiradis can lock down more than one target, then apparently you have not used the chain missile spell... Become an evoker AM and you can fire them off one after another.

Once you make that investment, you can count on Mass Hold Monster and Disco Balls and Stunning Fist/Stunning Blow/Kukan Do/etc to work (or at least you can when DCs are appropriate which is part of the reason why Shiradi is perceived as overpowered). You can't count on Nerve Venom to work when you need it to work.

The reason why DC casters were so popular for the time when they were is that you could count on them to get the job done. Shiradi has some really nice features, but reliability isn't one of them.

[Viconiax]

It is also extremely spammable, especially for an evoker AM. I have played a shiradi caster and from experience I can honestly say nerve venom with the right spells is an easy button that takes absolutely no investment.

And since i played a shiradi also, i can said it's not that OP (many others agreed with me also). :) The person that tried to get to shiradi also spend lot of time farming ED, getting gears for their toon, plan out their toon, cap the toon, etc.

The only thing that took no invesment in DDO is ASAH.

The only easy button afaik is pre-fix EiN.

Considering talking about easy button, make a druid, max out evo DC, and spam earthquake, mobs can't never ever get up from high DC earthquake (yes, even ee gh mobs)

[maximus123123]

I can honestly say ...

...


I've run CitW over 100 times and never saw Twilight fall, even for someone else.

Should you really be invoking "honesty?"

[anivaj]

The one with the 8 second cooldown you mean?
Wow. Now that is overpowered !

Evocation III - Chain Missiles
◦Usage: Active
◦Cost: 1 action points
◦Progression: 43 action points
◦Requires All of: Archmage III, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation, Evocation II - Gust of Wind
◦Available to Wizard class level 12
◦You have committed the spell Chain Missiles permanently to memory as a spell-like ability. Using this ability costs you 10 spell points. Purchasing this enhancement will reduce your maximum spell point total by 50. Has 8 seconds cooldown.

Hmmmm, that mixed with:

Name: Chain Missiles
School: Evocation (Force spells)
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Spell Point Cost: 15
Metamagic: Empower, Enlarge, Maximize, Quicken
Range: Standard (Has some AOE, see text)
Target: Foe
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cooldown: 3 seconds (Wiz), 2 seconds (Sor)

Regular CM has a 3 second CD. Regular CD, SLA CM, MM, CM, SLA CM.....on and on. Completely spammable, and requires absolutely no skill and can make numerous mobs helpless with NO SAVE for 6 seconds. If you can't see how this is overpowered, then there is no way I can ever convince you.

[anivaj]

...



Should you really be invoking "honesty?"

You do realize what random drops means dont you?

[maximus123123]

can make numerous mobs helpless with NO SAVE for 6 seconds

You can usually make one mob (sometimes two) helpless. Not surprising you say "numerous" given the veracity, factuality of your previous posts...

[Therigar]

Lots of pages, sorry but I did not read them all.

Would it be worth splashing ranger prior to picking up the ED just to start in Shiradi and then undoing the splash after picking the destiny? It is a long walk from Fatesinger to Shiradi.

[anivaj]

You can usually make one mob (sometimes two) helpless. Not surprising you say "numerous" given the veracity, factuality of your previous posts...

Yep about one mob for each cast, you are correct. Too bad noone casts once....

BTW Im sure the devs totally intended all these procs so most casters would love to play a ranger ED :P I just hope you are not deluded enough to believe this will not get nerfed.

[HungarianRhapsody]

1) I've run CitW over 100 times and never saw Twilight fall, even for someone else.

Just because I enjoy statistics...

The probability of running CitW 100 times in full parties and not seeing Twilight drop even once is 0.245% *if* Twilight has a drop rate of 0.5% chance per person per raid.

I'm fairly sure that Twilight drops more often than 1/2 percent of the time per person in the raid, so the actual chance of running CitW 100 times in full parties and not seeing Twilight drop is WELL under the 1/4 percent chance that I calculated here.

...of course, you could just be really, really unlucky. Or maybe they introduced a loot verson of the Wi Flag.

[Viconiax]

Hmmmm, that mixed with:

Name: Chain Missiles
School: Evocation (Force spells)
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Spell Point Cost: 15
Metamagic: Empower, Enlarge, Maximize, Quicken
Range: Standard (Has some AOE, see text)
Target: Foe
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cooldown: 3 seconds (Wiz), 2 seconds (Sor)

Regular CM has a 3 second CD. Regular CD, SLA CM, MM, CM, SLA CM.....on and on. Completely spammable, and requires absolutely no skill and can make numerous mobs helpless with NO SAVE for 6 seconds. If you can't see how this is overpowered, then there is no way I can ever convince you.

Compare it to pre-nerf wail, it basically is the same thing, but instead of maxing out DC, people maxing out spellpower. Fix DC, people will start using wail again, none of this shiradi talk has been happen until EE GH hit. Why? Mobs save are too high. Conjunction it with chain missle even, the proc chance for nerve venom on individual mobs is not that high.

Shiradi requires no skill? Go solo ee w/o drinking pots, re-entering and see how it is. Oh and don't do easy epics.

[anivaj]

Compare it to pre-nerf wail, it basically is the same thing, but instead of maxing out DC, people maxing out spellpower. Fix DC, people will start using wail again, none of this shiradi talk has been happen until EE GH hit. Why? Mobs save are too high. Conjunction it with chain missle even, the proc chance for nerve venom on individual mobs is not that high.

Shiradi requires no skill? Go solo ee w/o drinking pots, re-entering and see how it is. Oh and don't do easy epics.

You know an ED is Oped when the only way you can try to challenge someone is to tell them to solo EEs with it :p

[HungarianRhapsody]

Yep about one mob for each cast, you are correct. Too bad noone casts once....

One mob per cast doesn't happen unless your Nerve Venom luck is insane enough to make up for your CitW loot luck. The chance for a proc of Nerve Venom on a target is (1-0.7)^n where "n" is the number of hits you make with the spell. The probability of stunning an enemy with a magic missile, for instance is actually just over 30% and not the 35% that Viconiax had mentioned earlier.

If you are gathering up enough enemies on an EE quest to get one mob stunned per cast, then playing a Shiradi caster certainly does require a lot of skill because you have to deal with all of the enemies that aren't stunned in addition to the one that you have.

[Darkrok]

Lots of pages, sorry but I did not read them all.

Would it be worth splashing ranger prior to picking up the ED just to start in Shiradi and then undoing the splash after picking the destiny? It is a long walk from Fatesinger to Shiradi.

My opinion? No. Not because you're wrong on it being a long walk from Fatesinger to Shiradi. More because it's worth taking that walk from Fatesinger to Shiradi (and more to boot) for the twist points. Especially useful is getting enough levels overall to twist Energy Burst. That would be a level 4 twist so would be 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 fate points needed for a total of 10 points, or 30 levels, to get there. So just that twist alone would take far more than the walk from Fatesinger to Shiradi (Fatesinger 4, Shadowdancer 3, LD 4). I highly recommend at least getting Energy Burst opened before you go into Shiradi just so you don't have to switch out of Shiradi as often to level.

[Viconiax]

You know an ED is Oped when the only way you can try to challenge someone is to tell them to solo EEs with it :p

There already is an pm solo ee da back then in magister. Yes, no shiradi.

EDIT: should we nerf magister just because of this? No.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You know an ED is Oped when the only way you can try to challenge someone is to tell them to solo EEs with it :p

Since even I can do EN and EH solo with a Pale Master in the Paladin ED (and I'm not an exceptionally good player), what else is there to judge as a challenge level.

[Viconiax]

Since even I can do EN and EH solo with a Pale Master in the Paladin ED (and I'm not an exceptionally good player), what else is there to judge as a challenge level.

There is a pally that solo ee too in the achievement forums. ;)

Who said pally is gimp? :)

[maximus123123]

One mob per cast doesn't happen unless your Nerve Venom luck is insane enough to make up for your CitW loot luck.

I think you're on to something....his insanely bad luck in CitW was translated into insanely good luck with Shiradi in his ability to always stun his targets and stun "numerous" mobs at that ! I've only ever been able to stun two at a time...

Just goes to show, bad luck in one arena gets translated into great luck in another !

[anivaj]

Since even I can do EN and EH solo with a Pale Master in the Paladin ED (and I'm not an exceptionally good player), what else is there to judge as a challenge level.

I can solo EN and EH with a 7 cleric/7 FvS/6 wizard with no ED. The way to compare EDs is what they bring to a party in EEs, and currently a Shiradi with nerve venom spamming chain missiles brings more to a party than a caster in DI or Magister.

[anivaj]

One mob per cast doesn't happen unless your Nerve Venom luck is insane enough to make up for your CitW loot luck. The chance for a proc of Nerve Venom on a target is (1-0.7)^n where "n" is the number of hits you make with the spell. The probability of stunning an enemy with a magic missile, for instance is actually just over 30% and not the 35% that Viconiax had mentioned earlier.

If you are gathering up enough enemies on an EE quest to get one mob stunned per cast, then playing a Shiradi caster certainly does require a lot of skill because you have to deal with all of the enemies that aren't stunned in addition to the one that you have.

If there is only 2 mobs, ALL ten of the chain missile secondary procs will hit only the second mob...

[Viconiax]

I can solo EN and EH with a 7 cleric/7 FvS/6 wizard with no ED. The way to compare EDs is what they bring to a party in EEs, and currently a Shiradi with nerve venom spamming chain missiles brings more to a party than a caster in DI or Magister.
And why is that? Saves are too high.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I can solo EN and EH with a 7 cleric/7 FvS/6 wizard with no ED. The way to compare EDs is what they bring to a party in EEs, and currently a Shiradi with nerve venom spamming chain missiles brings more to a party than a caster in DI or Magister.

I agree entirely.

That's because DI and Magister are currently ****. So is the Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel. Both have some nice things to twist in, but as a whole, they're just not good.

[HungarianRhapsody]

If there is only 2 mobs, ALL ten of the chain missile secondary procs will hit only the second mob...

1-(1-0.07)^10 = 51%

51% chance of stunning the second enemy. That's less than one per chain missile. It turns out to be an average of one per two chain missiles.

I think the fact that you're using numbers that aren't at all accurate might be some of the reason why you think that Shiradi is so very overpowered.

[anivaj]

1-(1-0.07)^10 = 51%

51% chance of stunning the second enemy. That's less than one per chain missile. It turns out to be an average of one per two chain missiles.

I think the fact that you're using numbers that aren't at all accurate might be some of the reason why you think that Shiradi is so very overpowered.

You're not adding in the primary missile proc, AND you're not acknowledging the number of cheap spells you can throw in seconds before a mob reaches you.

Also, Shiradi is a cheap DPS ED. Using chain missiles is already adding DPS, throwing in CC for free is what puts it one step over balanced.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You're not adding in the primary missile proc, AND you're not acknowledging the number of cheap spells you can throw in seconds before a mob reaches you.

Also, Shiradi is a cheap DPS ED. Using chain missiles is already adding DPS, throwing in CC for free is what puts it one step over balanced.

I'm not failing to acknowledge anything. I'm just fixing your math. You keep making claims about how Shiradi works. The numbers that you are using in your claims are incorrect.

[Esserbe]

I can solo EN and EH with a 7 cleric/7 FvS/6 wizard with no ED. The way to compare EDs is what they bring to a party in EEs, and currently a Shiradi with nerve venom spamming chain missiles brings more to a party than a caster in DI or Magister.

It's almost as if there's an issue with casters in DI or Magister and the usability of said EDs in EE content, not an issue with Shiradi.

[SoloPhalanx]

I'm sorry but first life DC casters were only 1 DC behind TRed casters (except for evoc and conj). However, to be viable they still needed to invest in feats, enhancements, and grind the gear. (They were behind on spell pen, but not enough that you HAD to TR with some non SR spells still being viable.) Having a first life caster that invests heavily to get good DCs be able to CC reliably with all that focus is good game design. Giving an ED an easy button for absolutely no investment at all is NOT good game design. Anyone fighting for nerve venom just doesnt want their easy button removed...

You clearly have no idea about casters. Please refrain from acting as you know everything.

All I want is for DC casting to become viable again. I'll gladly hop right back into another destiny. When running with a group, Shiradi isn't even that awesome...