Courtesy

[MaximusParthas]

It's ok to be proud of yourself and confident in your abilities but...
When joining a group, please leave the solo tactic's for soloing.
Kiting everything around like no one else there is capable of dispatching the mobs quickly, or using "herding" mobtrain sprints
so YOU ALONE can blast everything at the end is not conducive to teamwork and takes a lot of the fun out of being in a group.

No offense intended. Just friendly advice.

Thank you for considering it.

[Vint]

What did the LFM say?

[MaximusParthas]

I'm not referring to any specific incident regarding my own playing or grouping.
It's just a general word of unsolicited advice.

[adamkatt]

Opinions are like..... even yet its a good one!

[DynaTheCat]

But.... that's what wizards / sorcs do... they blast everything apart. We can't help it if lesser classes can't do that.

I think this is a class problem not a party problem.

:D

[SirValentine]

Kiting everything around...


I hate that! You're slowing us down, you silly ranged kiting toon! Even if your DPS is more than mine, it's not more than yours and mine put together!

Would someone please let the archers and crossbowmen know that it's perfectly legal to stand still while you shoot at stuff?



using "herding" mobtrain sprints
so YOU ALONE can blast everything at the end


This, I don't have so much of a problem with. Grouping everything and blasting everything sounds like a nice, efficient plan to me.

[Derailment]

It's ok to be proud of yourself and confident in your abilities but...
When joining a group, please leave the solo tactic's for soloing.
Kiting everything around like no one else there is capable of dispatching the mobs quickly, or using "herding" mobtrain sprints
so YOU ALONE can blast everything at the end is not conducive to teamwork and takes a lot of the fun out of being in a group.

No offense intended. Just friendly advice.

Thank you for considering it.


I think I realize what's going on.

Have you tried to adapt? Run on melee to chokepoint and cleave just moment when mob train gets there?
This will improve teamwork by A TON. DDO currently not a game where you snipe monsters one by one around the corner.
As for kiting, melee have Intimidate and Stuns. And Bows!
Note I assume melee, because on ranged/caster you only benefit from someone else kiting/making train, because you have them all in field of view.

[HackSlashKill]

It's ok to be proud of yourself and confident in your abilities but...
When joining a group, please leave the solo tactic's for soloing.
Kiting everything around like no one else there is capable of dispatching the mobs quickly, or using "herding" mobtrain sprints
so YOU ALONE can blast everything at the end is not conducive to teamwork and takes a lot of the fun out of being in a group.

No offense intended. Just friendly advice.

Thank you for considering it.

You have just described effective tactics, not soloing tactics. What you don't like is that you are prob on your melee, and a wizard/sorc/fvs/cleric, is pulling all of the mobs and using effective use of mana for mass killing and providing effective tactics.

obviously, effective tactics in the group is not the group for you. I would suggest you join only melee builds groups and spend hours and hours killing things one by one. And after taking eight hours to complete tangleroot, you can look at the group and say... well, we did it boys. We dispatched all of those hobbies by swords and we deserve a dirty kobold. cheers

Oh, and no offense intended. Just friendly advice

[Mizzaroo]

You have just described effective tactics, not soloing tactics. What you don't like is that you are prob on your melee, and a wizard/sorc/fvs/cleric, is pulling all of the mobs and using effective use of mana for mass killing and providing effective tactics.

obviously, effective tactics in the group is not the group for you. I would suggest you join only melee builds groups and spend hours and hours killing things one by one. And after taking eight hours to complete tangleroot, you can look at the group and say... well, we did it boys. We dispatched all of those hobbies by swords and we deserve a dirty kobold. cheers

Oh, and no offense intended. Just friendly advice

Having solod tangleroot on a melee, I can say it certainly doesn't take eight hours! XD

[Kawai]

But.... that's what wizards / sorcs do... they blast everything apart. We can't help it if lesser classes can't do that.

I think this is a class problem not a party problem.

:D

agreed. totally. Class Problem.
as in... not having any. :p

[Kawai]

Having solod tangleroot on a melee, I can say it certainly doesn't take eight hours! XD

Takes longer if you sing theme song along way.
-ahem-

Roses red
drow r blue
Mizzy Mizzy...
-Mizzy Roo.

:cool: yes i rok

[Mizzaroo]

Takes longer if you sing theme song along way.
-ahem-

Roses red
drow r blue
Mizzy Mizzy...
-Mizzy Roo.

:cool: yes i rok

*bursts out laughing*
Yes you do!
:D

[susiedupfer]

I hate that! You're slowing us down, you silly ranged kiting toon! Even if your DPS is more than mine, it's not more than yours and mine put together!

Would someone please let the archers and crossbowmen know that it's perfectly legal to stand still while you shoot at stuff?



This, I don't have so much of a problem with. Grouping everything and blasting everything sounds like a nice, efficient plan to me.

I have a cure for that...let them get all that aggro all by their lonesome, then let them take care of it. When you hear the *ding*, everyone else goes in, kills the mobs. Then you drop that soulstone 11 seconds from a shrine.

I have explained until I am blue in the face that that is not an efficient method of completing quests. Hopefully, with a little tough love, they will learn.

[MaximusParthas]

I have a cure for that...let them get all that aggro all by their lonesome, then let them take care of it. When you hear the *ding*, everyone else goes in, kills the mobs. Then you drop that soulstone 11 seconds from a shrine.

I have explained until I am blue in the face that that is not an efficient method of completing quests. Hopefully, with a little tough love, they will learn.

I agree.

[MaximusParthas]

I think I realize what's going on.

Have you tried to adapt? Run on melee to chokepoint and cleave just moment when mob train gets there?
This will improve teamwork by A TON. DDO currently not a game where you snipe monsters one by one around the corner.
As for kiting, melee have Intimidate and Stuns. And Bows!
Note I assume melee, because on ranged/caster you only benefit from someone else kiting/making train, because you have them all in field of view.

Cleave is not a universal feat.

Here let me give a simple example. Assassin runs ahead to take out the fire giant in EE TOR. Just as he arrives and strikes with assassinate (which would kill the giant) the sorc shoots him with a ray of cold that DOES NOT kill him but does instantly send the giant running after the limbo party and causing the assassinate to hit thin air.
Imagine that happening over and over.
Not much different than the continual FOD on 1hp mobs. It's just a waste of everyone else's efforts and IMO (which no one asked for btw) when it's happening on more difficult levels it's selfish and assumptive. It's also a little dismissive of the rest of the party's capabilities. They might be able to kill everything on the way extremely quick and with less mana spent and no alerts. You never know if you just take it upon yourself to drop an AOE and commence your soul train dancing line.

Want me to kite the mobs? Would be polite.

[Singular]

I was going to write "Just run with Shiradi sorcs. Then you won't have to worry about AOEs. They'll just kill everything for you with magic missile." But then your example is of a ray. Yeah. You have to be pretty fast to keep up with well-played sorcs.

Good luck!

[fco-karatekid]

You have just described effective tactics, not soloing tactics. What you don't like is that you are prob on your melee, and a wizard/sorc/fvs/cleric, is pulling all of the mobs and using effective use of mana for mass killing and providing effective tactics.

obviously, effective tactics in the group is not the group for you. I would suggest you join only melee builds groups and spend hours and hours killing things one by one. And after taking eight hours to complete tangleroot, you can look at the group and say... well, we did it boys. We dispatched all of those hobbies by swords and we deserve a dirty kobold. cheers

Oh, and no offense intended. Just friendly advice

I've run a tempest through there as well as a monk - probably some of the fastest completions I've done. Not done a THF'er, though, so I could have limited perspective.

[fco-karatekid]

I have a cure for that...let them get all that aggro all by their lonesome, then let them take care of it. When you hear the *ding*, everyone else goes in, kills the mobs. Then you drop that soulstone 11 seconds from a shrine.

I have explained until I am blue in the face that that is not an efficient method of completing quests. Hopefully, with a little tough love, they will learn.

Agreed - been on both ends of that life lesson.

[fco-karatekid]

...Not much different than the continual FOD on 1hp mobs. It's just a waste of everyone else's efforts and IMO (which no one asked for btw) when it's happening on more difficult levels it's selfish and assumptive. ...

This one doesn't bother me so much - at least everyone's in on it. It is inefficient and wasteful, yes; but I don't get ****ed about this one.

[Gizeh]

I always adhere to my first rule of combat: "You kite it, you keep it". When I'm on a melee I really find it too annoying to run after a mob that is running after another character, so if someone aggros five mobs and runs around with them following him, and there are no other mobs for me to play with, I'll just stand still and watch him, and swing at the mobs if they run past me. It's more satisfying to actively contribute, but I refuse to run around wildly flailing my weapons in the hope I'll accidentally land a hit just because someone else wants all the mobs' attention but at the same time is afraid a mob might touch him :).

As for fingering mobs that are already close to death or aggroing a mob before it can be assassinated etc.: I'm pretty sure this very rarely happens on purpose. I think most of the time it's not paying attention to what other group members are doing, not knowing what they are doing ("why's that rogue sneaking around instead of fighting?!"), or everyone attacking the same mob at the same time ("that caster must die first!").

[Chai]

Killzone tactics rule. When done correctly with the most efficiency possible, the entire party is involved.

[Vellrad]

When I'm on a melee I just try to find unagroed mob, or, if there're no avaible, I just stand arround.
Sooner or later, everything is dead, or 1 random mob attacks me, and is quickly slain.

I'm currently leveling warpriest, when I see someone kiting, I just put a blade barrier, and toss a cleave.

[HAL]

I agree with the OP from the other perspective. As a caster player I run with either a monk who always runs far ahead and kills most things before I can get there or an intimitank who ignores my AOEs and pulls the mobs to her wherever she happens to be standing.

If the party used party tactics the mobs would be killed faster, but instead everyone is "doing their own thing".

I could just pike and only worry about it if there are too many mobs for these tactics or the eventual miniboss or boss who isn't killed as quickly so I can actually do something. Either way the job gets done. But if you are grouping with people its nice to feel that you're part of a group and not just a nth wheel.

[Derailment]

I have a cure for that...let them get all that aggro all by their lonesome, then let them take care of it. When you hear the *ding*, everyone else goes in, kills the mobs. Then you drop that soulstone 11 seconds from a shrine.

I was in party once where I wanted to do that. Wizard sprinted away and fireballed mobs trailing him at door. Then again. And again. I waited for that 'ding', but it just didn't happened - all the time I waited behind was just wasted. It IS effective method of playing, if done right.

[gordgray]

But.... that's what wizards / sorcs do... they blast everything apart. We can't help it if lesser classes can't do that.

I think this is a class problem not a party problem.

:D

Quit blaming classes for other people's STU-PITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fco-karatekid]

Quit blaming classes for other people's STU-PITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Irony

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If you want to solo a quest, you should not be in a party.
None of us want to watch you show off.

and Kiting should be a purposeful tactic that you choose to do to accomplish a goal.

Sometimes solo tactics have a place in a group. But adjust to what the group needs at the time.


and for those who find themselves in a group with a kiter.... I suggest everybody /cheer. :cool:

[HungarianRhapsody]

If you want to solo a quest, you should not be in a party.
None of us want to watch you show off.

and Kiting should be a purposeful tactic that you choose to do to accomplish a goal.

Sometimes solo tactics have a place in a group. But adjust to what the group needs at the time.


and for those who find themselves in a group with a kiter.... I suggest everybody /cheer. :cool:

When I end up in a group with a kiter, I just let them kite. Either they'll kill what they've aggro'd or they'll die. Either option is fine. I'm only interested in attacking enemies that aren't running away from me. I'm not good enough at WASD to be able to kill enemies that are being kited without wanting to kick puppies.

[Charononus]

Honestly my advice is to avoid zerg/farm lfms. These lfms are all about speed. This means that in a good majority of quests the fastest way to complete it and get the xp is to train the mobs to a check point then nuke them down or to run at full speed dropping blade barriers occasionally to kill them. It's not about soloing or not it's about finishing the quest the absolute fastest way possible to maximize xp/min. If you avoid zerg/farm quest and put up your own lfm most of these problems will be solved for you.

[silence383]

Double edge sword. Casters pull..which we just do on auotpilot now or else your going to be saying what are we waiting for..he/she is torcing? this is taking forever...so caster does not pull and lets party go to it to. Pulling is a way to save sp and hit all at one time. Then that caster is no longer welcome in parties if it goes bad. That caster sucks the whole party died cause he did not do his job, because killing in mass is his specialty not running out of sp cause he was fingering certain things.

We do not just pull to po people..we do it cause its automatic. It the most effective way of killng. I do not see anyone complaining bards are doing too good a job with crowd control so melee can have at it lol.. sorry just my thoughts.

[silence383]

And maybe I am misunderstanding the point of aggro. Melee's gain it..bards dance em..casters kill em..that's teamwork in my book..or maybe times have changed. :) If you want to melee everything in a quest please state you do not want teamwork you want kills. ;)

[Arnhelm]

I've learned to adapt my tactics when playing my level 15 sorc in a group. I let the group get aggro while I hang back, then start spamming mass damage spells until everything is dead. I avoid shooting, and pulling, mobs to myself before melees can get started. I rarely draw aggro before mobs are dead, and seldom have to kite around to stay alive.

Maybe it's just my style, but it works out well for me, and for the group from my experience.

[vengfarga]

Whilst my Barb would heartily agree with OP, my Xbow Rog would like to point out that it's not always kiting - when you've just had an unexpected Shiradi 'KABOOM' go off and now have more monsters aggro'ed than hit points, what looks like kiting to everyone else is simply running away!

[Ryiah]

It's ok to be proud of yourself and confident in your abilities but...

It is even better when you are smart and don't kite enemies around like a player who just discovered the fun of playing ranged... and you get complimented for it. I've had people tell me, when I'm playing my Artificer, that I was among the very few ranged players they were able to tolerate playing with and weren't instantly desiring to boot them.

That said there are times where having a ranged player kite an enemy around can be beneficial. I just finished an Epic Elite where our CC was literally a ranged player kiting enemies around the room.

[wildbynature]

Arcanes have cc spells. I'm pretty happy when sorcs pull stuff to webs with aoe damage spells in the middle. Makes my day on my melees and divines. I was wondering, though: I haven't been noticing web used much lately after lvl 10 or so. Is it not wai or something or am I just running with arcanes who don't believe in web?

[Apoxia]

I have a cure for that...let them get all that aggro all by their lonesome, then let them take care of it. When you hear the *ding*, everyone else goes in, kills the mobs. Then you drop that soulstone 11 seconds from a shrine.

I have explained until I am blue in the face that that is not an efficient method of completing quests. Hopefully, with a little tough love, they will learn.

Am I the only one that read this and thought, Wut?

What kind of caster dies to almost any amount of trash being pulled?

[Masterspud]

I've learned to adapt my tactics when playing my level 15 sorc in a group. I let the group get aggro while I hang back, then start spamming mass damage spells until everything is dead. I avoid shooting, and pulling, mobs to myself before melees can get started. I rarely draw aggro before mobs are dead, and seldom have to kite around to stay alive.

Maybe it's just my style, but it works out well for me, and for the group from my experience.

+1^

Yep, I let the agro get drawn by the Barb, then click manyshot and start dropping hit points.

Toss an occasional Creeping cold or flame strike and click many shot again.

Works well, do a little crowd control, protect the healer as his healing will often draw agro, and mission accomplished.

[AzB]

Pulling, kiting, gathering for aoes, aggro management, even running away are all valid tactics.

The trick is using them correctly and at the right time. Having played a couple light, fast melee types who don't focus on intim because they are not tanks, I can relate to how annoying it can be for the artis to aggro everything from way behind me so the mobs all run past me to get to them, and then the artis end up running around in a circle like a roomba trying to eliminate the aggro'ed mobs before their batteries run out. Meanwhile, all the melees are chasing around behind the mobs with varying degrees of sucess in actually catching one and getting it's attention. It's less common that the sorcs and wizzes do this, but it does happen. Once past a certain level, the sorcs and wizzes can pretty much handle it anyway.

But yeah,at low levels when artis and castersrepeatedly pull that ****, I just let 'em have the aggro and continue forward into the dungeon if possible. If not, I'll just stand and watch. I'm not running around like a Benny Hill skit at every encounter. Maybe if they die a few times, they'll start to figure out aggro management.

[Masterspud]

Arcanes have cc spells. I'm pretty happy when sorcs pull stuff to webs with aoe damage spells in the middle. Makes my day on my melees and divines. I was wondering, though: I haven't been noticing web used much lately after lvl 10 or so. Is it not wai or something or am I just running with arcanes who don't believe in web?

I use web with my wizzy, but when pugging I also notice it does not get used much, most seem to use blasting spells of some sort.

[Thrudh]

But.... that's what wizards / sorcs do... they blast everything apart. We can't help it if lesser classes can't do that.

I think this is a class problem not a party problem.

:D

So you think the solution is to nerf wizards/sorcs? :)

Seriously though, when I play my wizard in a group, I play very differently from when I solo... It's not hard, and it's a nice change of pace...

In a group, you don't have to be absolutely the most efficient with your SP... You're likely to have plenty of SP left over. So there's no need to kite 4 rooms of mobs before laying down your AOE... Just fight each room one-by-one with the melee, throw a mass hold now and then; you'll still move pretty fast...

Just note - Gathering up mobs is one thing, kiting is another... ANYONE kiting for extended periods in a group can be annoying. (archer, divine with blade barrier, caster with nukes). Kiting is the main solo tactic that you should probably shelve when in a PUG.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I use web with my wizzy, but when pugging I also notice it does not get used much, most seem to use blasting spells of some sort.

Once you start picking up a broader variety of CC spells, web can get lost in the shuffle. That, and other casters/runearms/your forgetful self will inevitably fireball them into oblivion regularly until you stop bothering with it.

[SiliconScout]

I tend to throw a dancing ball infront of the kiting train and that sovles the issue.

What I find annoying is that I can drop a ball, web and say ice storm/firewall at a good choke point and then some frigging melee will jump out in front of it and intim everything making my SP wasted.

That has to happen just twice in a quest and I stop casting entirely unless my life is on the line.

I want to help but when Melee's won't take the free DPS I toss them .... well it's frustrating lets just say.

[Qhualor]

I tend to throw a dancing ball infront of the kiting train and that sovles the issue.

What I find annoying is that I can drop a ball, web and say ice storm/firewall at a good choke point and then some frigging melee will jump out in front of it and intim everything making my SP wasted.

That has to happen just twice in a quest and I stop casting entirely unless my life is on the line.

I want to help but when Melee's won't take the free DPS I toss them .... well it's frustrating lets just say.

I see this myself a lot too. when I see this happen, its usually either inexperience or an epeen problem. a good melee will take advantage of what the group has to offer. a melee should be pulling mobs into CCs and fighting there. if there is just a BB, ill pull mobs through it and fight and run backwards, in and out the BB. if theres just a disco up and mobs are saving, ill make the mobs run in and out to make constant saves until they finally dance, while running backwards fighting. simple tactics utilizing CC makes for much smoother runs.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Double edge sword. Casters pull..which we just do on auotpilot now or else your going to be saying what are we waiting for..he/she is torcing? this is taking forever...so caster does not pull and lets party go to it to. Pulling is a way to save sp and hit all at one time. Then that caster is no longer welcome in parties if it goes bad. That caster sucks the whole party died cause he did not do his job, because killing in mass is his specialty not running out of sp cause he was fingering certain things.

We do not just pull to po people..we do it cause its automatic. It the most effective way of killng. I do not see anyone complaining bards are doing too good a job with crowd control so melee can have at it lol.. sorry just my thoughts.

An awful lot of the hate toward kiting is where the person is pulling the enemies to. What Silence is talking about here is effective and fun. Using tactics appropriate to the character's abilities and using tactics appropriate to the party's abilities is good. Kiting because you just enjoy running around in circles and don't understand how to pull enemies together as a group and when it is appropriate to group them up vs. when to keep them apart from each other is *not* good.

[Singular]

I see this myself a lot too. when I see this happen, its usually either inexperience or an epeen problem. a good melee will take advantage of what the group has to offer. a melee should be pulling mobs into CCs and fighting there. if there is just a BB, ill pull mobs through it and fight and run backwards, in and out the BB. if theres just a disco up and mobs are saving, ill make the mobs run in and out to make constant saves until they finally dance, while running backwards fighting. simple tactics utilizing CC makes for much smoother runs.

Good suggestions.

When I was a newb, people were kind enough to tell me "fight in my firewall, fight in the firewall!" and it really struck home. Now, even on my artie, I fight in people's aoes.

[danzig138]

I always adhere to my first rule of combat: "You kite it, you keep it". When I'm on a melee I really find it too annoying to run after a mob that is running after another character

In my experience, often the kiting happens because the melee just can't keep aggro, so maybe people playing melee characters should do a better job at their job.

[Psiandron]

Group tactics aren't about one class adapting their play to fit the others, it's about every member adapting to his teammates.

As has been said above several times, if a caster lays down an aoe and starts kiting mobs through it, go stand in his aoe and fight. Sometimes it's better if the melees grab agro, but often it's pretty fast and easy for ranged toons to draw a lot of mobs in and then the group can dispatch them as a group.

It's the same thing as healing. Melees shouldn't run around all over the place and expect the cleric who's standing there with his aura on to continually drop heals on them.

The OPs examples of the ray spell and the assassin and the fodding of 1 hp mobs are just things that happen occassionally. Personally, I hate it when I realize that I just fodded a mob that was almost dead. It's a waste of SP.

tldr;
There are plenty of examples you can find of people not using effective group tactics, that doesn't mean that there is an endemic problem with one or two classes not being played the way they should.

[bartharok]

In my experience, often the kiting happens because the melee just can't keep aggro, so maybe people playing melee characters should do a better job at their job.

I rarely agree with you, but this i can sign, though possibly in a nicer way.

[Gremmlynn]

But.... that's what wizards / sorcs do... they blast everything apart. We can't help it if lesser classes can't do that.

I think this is a class problem not a party problem.

:DIt's only a problem if you let those classes in your party.

[Rakuda13]

I mainly play Artis,I let the melee guy get argo,then use the xbow,I hate people that jump around and kite,its just not right.
If a rouge wants to sneak attack its best you sneak ahead and actually do that before the rest of the party gets there.They should have evasion and should be able to stay alive until the melee catches up and wipes the mob.
As far as the meat head melee running ahead and dragging all the mobs to one point,why not? Its much easier to cast on mobs and shoot them when the are not chasing you. There might be a kill count but it really has no purpose, in the end everything is dead because of the party.
End game i know i will have much less kills as an Arti than anybody carrying a sword,so deadly weapons and anything else that helps out the party is better than getting my own kills,and players that know whats going on get this.

[Singular]

I mainly play Artis,I let the melee guy get argo,then use the xbow,I hate people that jump around and kite,its just not right.
If a rouge wants to sneak attack its best you sneak ahead and actually do that before the rest of the party gets there.They should have evasion and should be able to stay alive until the melee catches up and wipes the mob.
As far as the meat head melee running ahead and dragging all the mobs to one point,why not? Its much easier to cast on mobs and shoot them when the are not chasing you. There might be a kill count but it really has no purpose, in the end everything is dead because of the party.
End game i know i will have much less kills as an Arti than anybody carrying a sword,so deadly weapons and anything else that helps out the party is better than getting my own kills,and players that know whats going on get this.

As an artie, you should have a higher kill count than the melees. Or, at least, all but the best ones.

[Qhualor]

I mainly play Artis,I let the melee guy get argo,then use the xbow,I hate people that jump around and kite,its just not right.
If a rouge wants to sneak attack its best you sneak ahead and actually do that before the rest of the party gets there.They should have evasion and should be able to stay alive until the melee catches up and wipes the mob.
As far as the meat head melee running ahead and dragging all the mobs to one point,why not? Its much easier to cast on mobs and shoot them when the are not chasing you. There might be a kill count but it really has no purpose, in the end everything is dead because of the party.
End game i know i will have much less kills as an Arti than anybody carrying a sword,so deadly weapons and anything else that helps out the party is better than getting my own kills,and players that know whats going on get this.

problem with a rogue getting his sneak attack ahead of the party is that the rogue cant sneak fast enough ahead of the party.

[Archangel666]

I've learned to adapt my tactics when playing my level 15 sorc in a group. I let the group get aggro while I hang back, then start spamming mass damage spells until everything is dead. I avoid shooting, and pulling, mobs to myself before melees can get started. I rarely draw aggro before mobs are dead, and seldom have to kite around to stay alive.

Maybe it's just my style, but it works out well for me, and for the group from my experience.

There's an alternative technique that lets you still take advantage of your ranged capabilities.

It works with both casters and ranged on most difficulties (Epic Elite being the exception, but let's face it, Epic Elite is an exception. The vast majority of the playerbase doesn't run on EE as a general rule, regardless of how Forumites might protest).

Open up with your usual ranged spell or attack, mobs start running towards you. While they're still running towards you, you keep attacking/casting while moving towards the melee in the group. When you reach them, stop. Mobs will come running right into the waiting arms (and drawn weapons) of the melee. At this point the mobs either die quickly or the melee take agro from you.

That's how I play on my AA Ranger, but I'm kinda lucky in that I don't PuG, just run with guildies these days.

[SoloPhalanx]

It's ok to be proud of yourself and confident in your abilities but...
When joining a group, please leave the solo tactic's for soloing.
Kiting everything around like no one else there is capable of dispatching the mobs quickly, or using "herding" mobtrain sprints
so YOU ALONE can blast everything at the end is not conducive to teamwork and takes a lot of the fun out of being in a group.

No offense intended. Just friendly advice.

Thank you for considering it.

If it gets the quest done quicker, it IS effective teamwork.

[Arnhelm]

If it gets the quest done quicker, it IS effective teamwork.

Faster maybe, bu not necessarily teamwork. Zerging just because you can do the quest solo faster that way does not contribute to teamwork, will prevent some chars from learning their rolls well in an effective group environment, and can lead to ill feelings as mentioned by the OP.

[AzB]

problem with a rogue getting his sneak attack ahead of the party is that the rogue cant sneak fast enough ahead of the party.

Invest some points in jump, enough to clear most mobs. Learn to jump over the front line of melees, hit sneak in mid air, and work your way over to the casters or whatever target is best. This takes a little practice, but is highly effective.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Faster maybe, bu not necessarily teamwork. Zerging just because you can do the quest solo faster that way does not contribute to teamwork, will prevent some chars from learning their rolls well in an effective group environment, and can lead to ill feelings as mentioned by the OP.

Just because someone isn't learning "their roles" the way that you think "their rolls" should be learned doesn't mean they're not learning and it doesn't mean they're not effective.

Zerging isn't LEERRROOOOOOY JEEENNNNKIIIINNNSSS! Zerging is just doing the things that work in a quest, but faster than most people are willing to do them.

[Gremmlynn]

If it gets the quest done quicker, it IS effective teamwork.But not what some consider fun. So kind of defeats the purpose of logging on in the first place for many.

It's really more a problem with the game than the players though. As the game seems to go so far to try to please as many play styles as possible, it makes pugging rather dissatisfying in many cases.

So you get situations where several players in the group are at cross purposes. "Why are you standing there getting hit you mana sponge?", "why are you dragging the mobs around, I want to play too?", "why are you wasting my SP with this few mobs?", "why are you slowing us down by stopping to kill the trash?"...

[bartharok]

On my ranged toons i try to grab the aggro of single mobs at a distance to draw them to the rest of the grou (and possibly killing them on the way). The main problem i have is when people see something moving towards them, rush at them and pull the rest. Faster, undoubtedly, than the way i do it, but also somewhat riskier at times.

[Rakuda13]

As an artie, you should have a higher kill count than the melees. Or, at least, all but the best ones.

Im usally about mid pack in kills,but in a group i give up a lot for the party,how many times you been asked for DW? that loses a spell place to do damage right there,but DW is better over all for the group. I dont need the spell at all,but everybody else seems to like it so i give it to them.

[Rakuda13]

problem with a rogue getting his sneak attack ahead of the party is that the rogue cant sneak fast enough ahead of the party.
I guess it depends how you or they do it,I dont think a rogue has to stay with the party, attack mobs A until tanks get there,then leave that fight while tanks are working them over and go ahead to mob B. That gives time to trap,do your little sneak attack until the tanks catch up to you. Rogues should be sneaky not standing with the group waiting to go to the next mob.
Of course you cant do that everywhere just because how some of the quests are set up,but its really effective.Gwlyns stand is a good example where a rogue can really be a rogue,invisibilty was great for this before it became a little bugged.rogues have a pretty high UMD.
Faster sneaking is one of the things you can pick up as you level.

[Rakuda13]

On my ranged toons i try to grab the aggro of single mobs at a distance to draw them to the rest of the grou (and possibly killing them on the way). The main problem i have is when people see something moving towards them, rush at them and pull the rest. Faster, undoubtedly, than the way i do it, but also somewhat riskier at times.

I really dont like this,and i mainly play ranged, I think most people hate this way. Just wait until the melee get there,you cant kill as fast as they can,ranged dmg is just not that high in the game. Picking a different weapon if you like kiting them to you,something that stuns is nice. Because you are kiting them to YOU and not the group. Thats the real problem,running damage from you or from the melee is a lot smaller than when everybody is standing still. Look for things on ledges,or something you can one shot kill.
Or if you do this then have point blank shot and stand your ground,dont jump around forceing everybody to miss the mob because the mob is fallowing you now.

[HungarianRhapsody]

On my ranged toons i try to grab the aggro of single mobs at a distance to draw them to the rest of the grou (and possibly killing them on the way). The main problem i have is when people see something moving towards them, rush at them and pull the rest. Faster, undoubtedly, than the way i do it, but also somewhat riskier at times.

The big question for decisions like this is how much risk there is in the quest. If the party is steamrolling the quest, then picking off one enemy at a time is pointless. If the party is coming close to a wipe every time they encounter a group of enemies, then picking off one enemy at a time is practically necessary.

Even on Elite, groups steamroll much more often than they fail, so it seems reasonable to save the single-mob-aggro tactics for the times when it is useful. It's an absolute life saver in those situations.

[danotmano1998]

a good player will take advantage of what the group has to offer. a team player should be pulling mobs into CCs and fighting there. if there is just a BB, ill pull mobs through it and fight and run backwards, in and out the BB. if theres just a disco up and mobs are saving, ill make the mobs run in and out to make constant saves until they finally dance, while running backwards fighting. simple tactics utilizing CC makes for much smoother runs.

Agreed. It's not hard to adapt to party play if you make a bit of effort to work together.
Edited the word "melee" out and changed it to player, because it fits better there. No matter what class you are playing or playing alongside of, it's easier and faster to work together than not.

If you kite, try and kite the mobs to the heavy hitters when they are ready. Or in and out of any AOE's.
If you cast, try and use spells and the environment to everyone's benefit.
If you hit things, try to take advantage of any friendly AOE'S. Take 3 steps and fight IN the firewall or dance ball.

If there's an uber player that wants to gather all the mobs and take them on by themself, let them! If they win, you win. If they die, you can go save them and they can learn a lesson about teamwork. Either way it's good entertainment, right?

I think the biggest problem with teamwork in DDO is the kill count and people's desire to lead it, even though it doesn't matter in the slightest when the XP and loot are awarded.

[Singular]

Agreed. It's not hard to adapt to party play if you make a bit of effort to work together.


You know, this is a bit Ayn Rand of me, but I find that the best parties are the ones who work best as individuals. Yes, the parties I join who try to maximize everyone's role do well, but the fastest paced ones are those where every member is working individually. In EE content, I'm more comforted by players who can all handle their own and are simply trying to output max damage. You die, we carry you to the shrine, and barely slow down.

[Nitesco]

In my experience, often the kiting happens because the melee just can't keep aggro, so maybe people playing melee characters should do a better job at their job.

That's just how aggro works and is something very few people seem to be aware of.

-Whoever the mob becomes aware of first, gets aggro.

-Whoever does the most damage to a mob after threat modifiers, gets aggro.

-Ranged mobs move away from players.

-Melee mobs move towards towards.

-All mobs move towards who they are aggro'd on when line of sight is broken.

It's just that rangers and casters get their shot in first and ranged attacks have an arbitrary threat modifier, which is quite high and aggro can take some moments gain from a ranger. I ignore all mobs that are moving away from me, I assume they are being dealt with and nothing I can do will expedite that. I simply move onto the next set of mobs and will keep leapfrogging the kiter in this manner until they either deal with their aggro or we get red alert and people die.

I used to get angry about kited AI, but now I just ignore it and really it's just a flag for me to move onto the next free mobs. The only time it bothers me is when I have to wait for someone kiting stuff that could be killed much faster if they just stood still. Favored Souls are particularly annoying in that respect, they might be doing mega damage with each BB pass, but I can always tell from the HP meters that the melee would tear them down much, much faster.

[bartharok]

The big question for decisions like this is how much risk there is in the quest. If the party is steamrolling the quest, then picking off one enemy at a time is pointless. If the party is coming close to a wipe every time they encounter a group of enemies, then picking off one enemy at a time is practically necessary.

Even on Elite, groups steamroll much more often than they fail, so it seems reasonable to save the single-mob-aggro tactics for the times when it is useful. It's an absolute life saver in those situations.

The times when it is riskier are the ones that bother me. The rest of the time i really dont care who kills them, just as long as they are dead.

[patang01]

If things go boom faster and quicker, its all good. I'm not there to show off. Im there to profit and gain xp.

Whatever works. But if kiting things in a circle makes things slower...bad.

[SoloPhalanx]

But not what some consider fun. So kind of defeats the purpose of logging on in the first place for many.


I rarely join LFMs as I'm leveling up, but on the rare occasion, I don't join LFMs that say "no zergers" or other flower sniffing comments such as those.

Therefore, I assume everyone wants to get the quest done ASAP, making working towards a faster completion is the best teamwork anyone can do.

As a side note, I like fingering mobs at 10% hp when it's obvious that the melees should be focusing on a red name (when there is one) and leaving the trash to casters.
The real problem here is that too many people focus on KCs, not what's best for everyone, and that's usually why they do not appreciate mobs being kited/running after a caster who'll nuke them.

[Archangel666]

I rarely join LFMs as I'm leveling up, but on the rare occasion, I don't join LFMs that say "no zergers" or other flower sniffing comments such as those.

Therefore, I assume everyone wants to get the quest done ASAP, making working towards a faster completion is the best teamwork anyone can do.

As a side note, I like fingering mobs at 10% hp when it's obvious that the melees should be focusing on a red name (when there is one) and leaving the trash to casters.
The real problem here is that too many people focus on KCs, not what's best for everyone, and that's usually why they do not appreciate mobs being kited/running after a caster who'll nuke them.

An alternative viewpoint.

Those Melee might be killing the trash so that only the red named is left so that the party isn't getting attacked by both the red named and the trash at the same time. Trash are generally much faster to kill than red named mobs. Once the trash is dealt with the entire party can focus on the red named, which in turn helps it die faster.

[SirValentine]

An alternative viewpoint.

Those Melee might be killing the trash so that only the red named is left so that the party isn't getting attacked by both the red named and the trash at the same time. Trash are generally much faster to kill than red named mobs. Once the trash is dealt with the entire party can focus on the red named, which in turn helps it die faster.

Yup. And not only that, Finger isnt a great method of taking out the trash, since it's only one at a time. Taking out all the trash at once with AOE (like Great Cleave, etc.) is way more efficient than the caster Fingering. How about the caster get a couple triple-stacks going on that red-named, instead?

Oh, right, the caster is worried about HIS kill count. :-)

[SoloPhalanx]

Yup. And not only that, Finger isnt a great method of taking out the trash, since it's only one at a time. Taking out all the trash at once with AOE (like Great Cleave, etc.) is way more efficient than the caster Fingering. How about the caster get a couple triple-stacks going on that red-named, instead?

Oh, right, the caster is worried about HIS kill count. :-)

I probably should have been clearer. I was referring to some general quests in say, EH, but I think I should have mentioned epic levels, hence EDs were involved. DoTs can't compare to melee dps at that level.

Also, general trash threat is 0. This is also valid for EN, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complaining about casters kiting in EE.

[MaximusParthas]

I guess it depends how you or they do it,I dont think a rogue has to stay with the party, attack mobs A until tanks get there,then leave that fight while tanks are working them over and go ahead to mob B. That gives time to trap,do your little sneak attack until the tanks catch up to you. Rogues should be sneaky not standing with the group waiting to go to the next mob.
Of course you cant do that everywhere just because how some of the quests are set up,but its really effective.Gwlyns stand is a good example where a rogue can really be a rogue,invisibilty was great for this before it became a little bugged.rogues have a pretty high UMD.
Faster sneaking is one of the things you can pick up as you level.

lol. your perceptions of a rogue is pretty funny.
Here's what I do at every mob. 1st assassinate a caster or high threat creature. 2nd charm the next highest priority with Shadowdancer manipulate shadows. 3rd beat the next creature in line for a few seconds until melee catches up and then assassinate the next. Usually 3 things are dead before anyone else gets close and the main threats to the party have been neutralized.

[easyaction]

I usually just kite thing back through the melees. they're just a meatier version of a BB.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Whilst my Barb would heartily agree with OP, my Xbow Rog would like to point out that it's not always kiting - when you've just had an unexpected Shiradi 'KABOOM' go off and now have more monsters aggro'ed than hit points, what looks like kiting to everyone else is simply running away!

lol.... yeah.. there is that.... lol. ;)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Group tactics aren't about one class adapting their play to fit the others, it's about every member adapting to his teammates.As has been said above several times, if a caster lays down an aoe and starts kiting mobs through it, go stand in his aoe and fight. Sometimes it's better if the melees grab agro, but often it's pretty fast and easy for ranged toons to draw a lot of mobs in and then the group can dispatch them as a group.

It's the same thing as healing. Melees shouldn't run around all over the place and expect the cleric who's standing there with his aura on to continually drop heals on them.

The OPs examples of the ray spell and the assassin and the fodding of 1 hp mobs are just things that happen occassionally. Personally, I hate it when I realize that I just fodded a mob that was almost dead. It's a waste of SP.

tldr;
There are plenty of examples you can find of people not using effective group tactics, that doesn't mean that there is an endemic problem with one or two classes not being played the way they should.

So true.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

problem with a rogue getting his sneak attack ahead of the party is that the rogue cant sneak fast enough ahead of the party.

Uhmmm... I've covered that in other threads... lol.

zerge stealth is certainly posible. (although the change/bug with invisibility and sound detection may hamper this somewhat)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I guess it depends how you or they do it,I dont think a rogue has to stay with the party, attack mobs A until tanks get there,then leave that fight while tanks are working them over and go ahead to mob B. That gives time to trap,do your little sneak attack until the tanks catch up to you. Rogues should be sneaky not standing with the group waiting to go to the next mob.
Of course you cant do that everywhere just because how some of the quests are set up,but its really effective.Gwlyns stand is a good example where a rogue can really be a rogue,invisibilty was great for this before it became a little bugged.rogues have a pretty high UMD.
Faster sneaking is one of the things you can pick up as you level.

Yes! This is basically what I was referring to.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

You know, this is a bit Ayn Rand of me, but I find that the best parties are the ones who work best as individuals. Yes, the parties I join who try to maximize everyone's role do well, but the fastest paced ones are those where every member is working individually. In EE content, I'm more comforted by players who can all handle their own and are simply trying to output max damage. You die, we carry you to the shrine, and barely slow down.

The groups I like function well as individuals, but stay mostly together and assist each other.

No specific roles, but they check their individual egos and adapt their playstyles to their companions.... to a degree anyway.

Actually, they mostly just pay attention to what other people are doing and things like location, red and blue bars....etc.

[Mastikator]

I always adhere to my first rule of combat: "You kite it, you keep it".
This. Never run after monsters that are being kited, if the kiter wants my help he'll kite towards me, otherwise I see it as a free pass to pike.

[Gremmlynn]

I rarely join LFMs as I'm leveling up, but on the rare occasion, I don't join LFMs that say "no zergers" or other flower sniffing comments such as those.

Therefore, I assume everyone wants to get the quest done ASAP, making working towards a faster completion is the best teamwork anyone can do.

As a side note, I like fingering mobs at 10% hp when it's obvious that the melees should be focusing on a red name (when there is one) and leaving the trash to casters.
The real problem here is that too many people focus on KCs, not what's best for everyone, and that's usually why they do not appreciate mobs being kited/running after a caster who'll nuke them.Interesting assumption. What do you do when it soon becomes obvious that it isn't the case that everyone is just in a hurry to get the quest over with?

[Taters214]

If you want to solo a quest, you should not be in a party.
None of us want to watch you show off.

So then if if I'm on my caster I have to intentionally not kill mobs and not blow stuff to pieces??? Being a killing machine should not be held against me. That's the way I was rolled.

[Taters214]

I think the biggest problem with teamwork in DDO is the kill count and people's desire to lead it, even though it doesn't matter in the slightest when the XP and loot are awarded.

I played WOW for a couple months before it bored me to death, and its even worse. A players dps is displayed for everyone to see, including the abilities you use the most. This leaves you open to being picked apart for not being as uber as you should be or using abilities that another player thinks are inferior. And then there is the pressure to get you dps up out of the gutter... The game starts to feel too much like work after awhile.

[Qhualor]

Uhmmm... I've covered that in other threads... lol.

zerge stealth is certainly posible. (although the change/bug with invisibility and sound detection may hamper this somewhat)

it is possible, but healers don't enjoy party members splitting up. in a lot of threads like this, they jump into the discussion and say you are on your own if you run off ahead of the party.

I don't personally come across too many stealthy players that are able to run ahead of the party and be self sufficient and able to take down mobs on their own. usually they *ding or come back to the party with friends.

[Gremmlynn]

I probably should have been clearer. I was referring to some general quests in say, EH, but I think I should have mentioned epic levels, hence EDs were involved. DoTs can't compare to melee dps at that level.

Also, general trash threat is 0. This is also valid for EN, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complaining about casters kiting in EE.Really, 0? Strange, I find in a lot of the epic stuff I run, the trash it's nearly as hard as the boss but is always a lot squishier. In some cases, "Deal and the Demon" comes to mind, the boss has a threat of about 0, while the trash is the real threat (hard to do much while dancing and/or stunned) or anything with a drow priestess for a boss (they'll do the fingering for you while getting all their hps back, best to kill the trash first so as to only need to work through that pile on hp once).

[Gremmlynn]

So then if if I'm on my caster I have to intentionally not kill mobs and not blow stuff to pieces??? Being a killing machine should not be held against me. That's the way I was rolled.Nothing wrong with killing stuff as long as you aren't dragging it away from the rest while you do it.

[Battlehawke]

It sounds like someone rally knew what they were doing and "stole" all your thunder".

[thesnoman]

I play both melee and ranged toons, but I've been playing my Sorc a lot more recently.

Tips for perpetual kiters (doesn't matter your class)

The party together will likely do more damage thn you solo - Kite toward the party
If you want to solo than solo and don't join an LFM - Soloing is easier due to dungeon scaling
If you're pulling aggro and then running away - you must be too squishy for the content. Invest some time in building your toon to take a few hits so you can bring stuff to the party and then stand still for a few seconds.
If you perpetually kite and "DING" more than once you deserve a ride in someone's backpack to the end of the quest.
If you're running the party put "ZERG" in the LFM panel so everyone knows your intentions


Tips for Melees when dealing with a perpetual kiter:

Let them do their thing - if they fail they "DING" and get a backpack ride to the end of the quest
Most casters do their most efficient Damage/SP when you bring a mob to a choke point and cast AOEs - It works the same for melees unless YOU are playing like you're soloing (i.e. 1 monster at a time)
Inefficient casters will eventually burn their blue bar - you can have your fun when they're piking because they have no more SP
If you can't grab aggro on a melee you either need more intimidate or you aren't outputting enough damage and the kiter is likely doing more damage than you.
If you're running the party, put "slow and steady" in the LFM panel so everyone knows your intentions.


Remember - these are tips, not rules set in stone. The best advise I can give is to adapt to the party and play as the majority want to play. If this is boring for you than you can always drop group and put up your own LFM. After all - leading an PuG is about letting people know what you expect and carrying it out. Of course part of this boils down to the group respecting the PuG leader's wishes and listening to them when instructions are given.

GL, Have fun, and enjoy the game the way YOU enjoy it...unless you're ruining the fun for someone else.

[bartharok]

I really dont like this,and i mainly play ranged, I think most people hate this way. Just wait until the melee get there,you cant kill as fast as they can,ranged dmg is just not that high in the game. Picking a different weapon if you like kiting them to you,something that stuns is nice. Because you are kiting them to YOU and not the group. Thats the real problem,running damage from you or from the melee is a lot smaller than when everybody is standing still. Look for things on ledges,or something you can one shot kill.
Or if you do this then have point blank shot and stand your ground,dont jump around forceing everybody to miss the mob because the mob is fallowing you now.

I only kite the mobs around if noone else is interested in attacking them. As soon as someone else decides to try to grab its aggro, i stop and let them. I dont like having aggro on ranged toons if i can avoid it.

[FlameDiablo]

Teamwork doesn't always means: "yea all togedar on that weak mob" sometimes means "split to complete quest faster" or "caster on trash and others on boss"... just do what yu can do best...
BTW if yu r melee around lvl 10 i got a bad news for yu: your targets r just breakables, but don't worrie on endgame or next TR yu'll be more useful

[Nitesco]

but don't worrie on endgame or next TR yu'll be more useful

Because of experience, +1 DC to tactics, +10 HP, 5% healing amp or something else? Past lives are weak and should be the last thing you pursue if you care at all about real power.

[wildbynature]

I just tell the Kiter that I don't chase. It's true that you can run into a few people who don't understand agro management and can't survive sitting by a melee for two seconds while he or she establishes agro. Those are usually the people who get a free backpack ride for a bit.

There are times when I'm at the front of the group and don't see the AOE cloud behind me, but when a sorc says, "hey, firewall behind you," I pay attention. Just like when the cleric says "masses on so and so," I make sure I'm in the masses or I drink silver flame pots. It all makes my life easier and more fun, and it keeps my party members happy because they're not wasting resources.

It would make sense than that when my barbarian says, "kite them towards me and let me establish agro," a good ranged toon or caster is going to let me establish agro so that they are free to do as much dps as they wish. If they are capable and want to solo content with five people piking, I'll be happy to let them. I still get xp, and I still get my chest.

[SoloPhalanx]

Interesting assumption. What do you do when it soon becomes obvious that it isn't the case that everyone is just in a hurry to get the quest over with?

I leave that group after the quest I am in is over.


Really, 0? Strange, I find in a lot of the epic stuff I run, the trash it's nearly as hard as the boss but is always a lot squishier. In some cases, "Deal and the Demon" comes to mind, the boss has a threat of about 0, while the trash is the real threat (hard to do much while dancing and/or stunned) or anything with a drow priestess for a boss (they'll do the fingering for you while getting all their hps back, best to kill the trash first so as to only need to work through that pile on hp once).

Drow priestesses are an exception. If you think that the trash in deal and the demon is a pain on EN/EH, then clearly we shouldn't be discussing this.


Because of experience, +1 DC to tactics, +10 HP, 5% healing amp or something else? Past lives are weak and should be the last thing you pursue if you care at all about real power.

Probably because they are able to TR into a casting class? :P

[RumbIe]

Without reading through the entire thread and all the posts and pages I'll assume what the OP means is when for example a FVS throws up a BB (I have an Evoker build FVS so I am familiar with the tactic, but really only use it solo) and grabs all the mobs aggro and starts running them through, meanwhile doing 150-300 damage on each end while melee are trying to chase them down. A classic example of this is the Iron Golem in Von5. It's not so much that me and him can do more than just him alone. It's me and him, plus the other 10 in our party can do more than just him alone.

It is this kind of kiting that is the issue. Of course there are times when taking the mobs and kiting them while others focus on a boss or pick them off is appropriate (looking at you LOB), but usually these tactics are discussed up front as opposed to having someone thing they can solo a random group of mobs faster than the whole group can knock them down.

I also don't have as much of an issue with a ranged (caster or bow) that grabs a single target out a group and kites them so long as there are others for me to focus on. In the example of an assassin swiping at air that's just bad luck that we both targeted the same mob. I mean maybe my polar ray didn't take him out on the first shot but I'm pretty sure before he reaches me my next shot will and considering the sp pool I have I'm none the worse for wear.

If I am going to aggro a group I usually toss up some cc (web or disco). Then I can drop some serious ice bombs on mobs. If I get a group of aggro by accident I usually stand still and take it until a melee pulls them off of me. If I can't kill them all myself it's much easier to shield up and drop a few reconstructs. By then the melee will have regained aggro and I can go back to picking them off one or two at a time or maybe my dragon's breath is recharged and I can wipe them all out. In short I know that unless I'm in a totally swamped group (all men for themselves) or an incompetent one, that standing still is better than running around like a chicken with his head cut off.

So I wouldn't say all kiting is bad. Situationally it is useful in a PUG, but it takes confidence and patience to learn to stand still for a bit and let someone else regain aggro if you've bitten off more than you can chew which happens to everyone form time to time.

[Qhualor]

Because of experience, +1 DC to tactics, +10 HP, 5% healing amp or something else? Past lives are weak and should be the last thing you pursue if you care at all about real power.

I agree that most PLs are not as great as they once were, but the way you worded this post made me lol.

[Luxgolg]

Because of experience, +1 DC to tactics, +10 HP, 5% healing amp or something else? Past lives are weak and should be the last thing you pursue if you care at all about real power.

Arent you the same guy from here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=406952

[Gremmlynn]

Drow priestesses are an exception. If you think that the trash in deal and the demon is a pain on EN/EH, then clearly we shouldn't be discussing this.Ah, then what should we be discussing? How to fight a boss with several arcanaloths stunning and dancing me and hoping some caster isn't waiting for their FoD to come off cooldown (or stunned and dancing himself) to do something about them?

[HalfORCastrator]

It's ok to be proud of yourself and confident in your abilities but...
When joining a group, please leave the solo tactic's for soloing.
Kiting everything around like no one else there is capable of dispatching the mobs quickly, or using "herding" mobtrain sprints
so YOU ALONE can blast everything at the end is not conducive to teamwork and takes a lot of the fun out of being in a group.

No offense intended. Just friendly advice.

Thank you for considering it.
This is where you're wrong. Just follow the caster to the end so you can attack mobs. It's teamwork to help the caster conserve SP by letting him use persistent/AOE spells on multiple mobs instead of trying to go 1 at a time.

[SoloPhalanx]

Ah, then what should we be discussing? How to fight a boss with several arcanaloths stunning and dancing me and hoping some caster isn't waiting for their FoD to come off cooldown (or stunned and dancing himself) to do something about them?

Circle of Death -> no more Arcanaloths

[Battlehawke]

If they are doing a good job at it and not getting themselves or the party killed and not being a "drain" on the healer, then its OK! It's boring for everyone else.

If they are placing everyone else in jeapardy, then they should stop and find a new tactic.

I've grouped with AA's that basically solo'd the quest and also with others that are constantly in my backpack.

If you have to keep rezzing them, then stop. If they are pretty much solo'ing the quest, then let them be.

[Gremmlynn]

Circle of Death -> no more ArcanalothsI've never run it with an arcane so has never been an option.

[Gremmlynn]

If they are pretty much solo'ing the quest, then let them be.I'm more inclined to just leave and find something fun to do, but to each their own I guess.

[rest]

Because of experience, +1 DC to tactics, +10 HP, 5% healing amp or something else? Past lives are weak and should be the last thing you pursue if you care at all about real power.

I still think certain past lives are still powerful.

[Gremmlynn]

I still think certain past lives are still powerful.I really don't see how anyone can feel they are worth the relative effort though. On a first life one gets at least 28 build points and a minimum of 7 feats, but for twice that effort a second life gains at most 6 build points and a single feat. While I can understanding one TRing because they enjoy TRing, I don't see how the small amount of difference power-wise is worth the time and effort needed to get it.

[Qhualor]

I really don't see how anyone can feel they are worth the relative effort though. On a first life one gets at least 28 build points and a minimum of 7 feats, but for twice that effort a second life gains at most 6 build points and a single feat. While I can understanding one TRing because they enjoy TRing, I don't see how the small amount of difference power-wise is worth the time and effort needed to get it.

Some like more power, even if its just a little. Some dont find it a waste of time and effort in what was originally a time sink game. We all have our reasons but i fall under the first 2 i listed.

[bartharok]

I really don't see how anyone can feel they are worth the relative effort though. On a first life one gets at least 28 build points and a minimum of 7 feats, but for twice that effort a second life gains at most 6 build points and a single feat. While I can understanding one TRing because they enjoy TRing, I don't see how the small amount of difference power-wise is worth the time and effort needed to get it.

I consider it a bonus for TR'ing and nothing more. A nice thing to have since i enjoy TR'ing. But nothing to make me get them becausse they make me UBER!!

[rest]

I really don't see how anyone can feel they are worth the relative effort though. On a first life one gets at least 28 build points and a minimum of 7 feats, but for twice that effort a second life gains at most 6 build points and a single feat. While I can understanding one TRing because they enjoy TRing, I don't see how the small amount of difference power-wise is worth the time and effort needed to get it.

If you're not a hardcore min/maxer, that 1% means absolutely nothing. If you are, that 1% means EVERYTHING.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So then if if I'm on my caster I have to intentionally not kill mobs and not blow stuff to pieces??? Being a killing machine should not be held against me. That's the way I was rolled.

So your that awesome huh...

Why are you in a group?
What do you expect the other five people to be doing while you kill everything in the dungeon?

/cheer

Go Taters go! Woo Hooo! Taters!

Man did you see him blow all those monsters up?!

He's the man!


Wish I could be as awesome as Taters.

I'll join your group any day.

Need me to hold your cape for ya.

/cheer
/cheer2

[Talon_Moonshadow]

it is possible, but healers don't enjoy party members splitting up. in a lot of threads like this, they jump into the discussion and say you are on your own if you run off ahead of the party.

I don't personally come across too many stealthy players that are able to run ahead of the party and be self sufficient and able to take down mobs on their own. usually they *ding or come back to the party with friends.

Rogues get UMD as a class skill.
With a little easy to get gear (can't believe I am saying that....lol) they can get either no fail Heal scrolls or darn close to it.

I am a believer in being self sufficient.
I am perfectly ready to do quests without a healer. and I think a good Rogue should be just as ready.

But... since Rogues depend on SAs, the best way is to get to the next room, just long enough to set up, and maybe make that first attack, just as the rest of the party arrives.



But... I admit, most Rogues aren't very good at this.
Most have little understading of agro or stealth... and a rather large percentage are not self sufficient.

[NaturalHazard]

This is what koromars belt and grease where invented for no? Or just run past let em have all those mobs, hopefully the red alert causes them to die, and not you. :D

[Infant]

I really don't see how anyone can feel they are worth the relative effort though. On a first life one gets at least 28 build points and a minimum of 7 feats, but for twice that effort a second life gains at most 6 build points and a single feat. While I can understanding one TRing because they enjoy TRing, I don't see how the small amount of difference power-wise is worth the time and effort needed to get it.

Ok, see it his way: The 3x cleric/wizard/fighter past lives make you land your Web/SpellPen Check/Stun 95% of the time instead of 80% of the time. Small increase in power?

[Singular]

The groups I like function well as individuals, but stay mostly together and assist each other.

No specific roles, but they check their individual egos and adapt their playstyles to their companions.... to a degree anyway.

Actually, they mostly just pay attention to what other people are doing and things like location, red and blue bars....etc.

Yeah, totally. I like those groups, too. To be honest, I really enjoy pugging. It's fun adapting to work with others, it's fun demonstrating your mad skills on the character you've invested so much time and thought into. And it's nice to learn from and share with others.

[Singular]

So then if if I'm on my caster I have to intentionally not kill mobs and not blow stuff to pieces??? Being a killing machine should not be held against me. That's the way I was rolled.

If we quested together, and you were totally owning the quest, I'd pull my game up to your level for a friendly competition - whoops! Now the quest is finished. Time for another!

[Charononus]

If we quested together, and you were totally owning the quest, I'd pull my game up to your level for a friendly competition - whoops! Now the quest is finished. Time for another!

That's the way it should be. I wish more people got that.

[SoloPhalanx]

I've never run it with an arcane so has never been an option.

And you never thought of that, even not running it with an arcane, and yet we are talking about casters here. Oh well

[Gremmlynn]

Ok, see it his way: The 3x cleric/wizard/fighter past lives make you land your Web/SpellPen Check/Stun 95% of the time instead of 80% of the time. Small increase in power?Yes I understand the mechanical effects. It just seems running content at a lower difficulty setting would have a similar effect without all the grind if that is what one is looking for. It just seems silly to work that hard when I can replicate the effect with one click of the mouse.

[Gremmlynn]

And you never thought of that, even not running it with an arcane, and yet we are talking about casters here. Oh wellWhy would I have thought of that if it wasn't even an option? I mean I didn't think of air strikes either.

[Juduss]

That's the way it should be. I wish more people got that.

When I'm playing a Meele it's 'cause I wanna kill stuff, not watch it get kited away.
CC & Aoe for the group win. I wish more people got that.

When pugging on my casters, I drop a web or disco, giving the Meeles what they came for. While they're chewing on the CC'd, I go get my share to kill as I see fit. Win/win & everybody has fun :D

[RumbIe]

I have no problem if the kiting is crushing it. Then let them continue to crush. Running epic sands walk ups at level 11 on my rogue with a multi TR sorc I sat back as he pulled all the mobs and wiped them out. No problems for me there. As an when a mob got missed I stepped in or lit the alters. I have no problem with that and my ego doesn't take a hit. Sure I'd like to kill a few more mobs, but to do so I need to step up my game. My rogue is a first life and as my 11th toon is like the 11th sibling in that I have been too lazy to gear him out at the start and figured I'd run him for a bit and see if I like him before I do. In any event no problem with the sorc and the LFM indicating that the runs would be farmed and when I joined and saw I was the only non-TR I assumed speed. I could have left at that point if I wanted.

The issue is with kiters that think they are the above mentioned sorc, but they are far from it. They gather up mobs and kite them around doing minimal damage and making it take longer to kill the mobs than it would together. Without a doubt the sorc mentioned above was the fastest way to do it. He was putting up the damage to prove it and kept himself alive. The cleric that tosses out a BB that does garbage damage and tries running 8-10 mobs through it for 10 minutes while the melees try and grab aggro back is not doing anyone any favors. If he were playing solo then all the power to you, but if you can't put up fat stacks of damage and kill your kiting fan club quickly then don't kite. If you can then all the power to you. I won't stop you. Enjoy and thanks for contributing to the party by dropping mobs like Rosie O'Donnell attacking a Hostess cup cake. .

[SoloPhalanx]

Yes I understand the mechanical effects. It just seems running content at a lower difficulty setting would have a similar effect without all the grind if that is what one is looking for. It just seems silly to work that hard when I can replicate the effect with one click of the mouse.

Maybe because some people like the challenge of not running casual/normal/hard, and in order to better prepare themselves for elite they see TR'ing as worth it?


Why would I have thought of that if it wasn't even an option? I mean I didn't think of air strikes either.

You don't seem to think much at all do you?

I must ask, do you turn auto attack on and just use WASD + tab?

[Nitesco]

Ok, see it his way: The 3x cleric/wizard/fighter past lives make you land your Web/SpellPen Check/Stun 95% of the time instead of 80% of the time. Small increase in power?

Relative to what?

[Gremmlynn]

Maybe because some people like the challenge of not running casual/normal/hard, and in order to better prepare themselves for elite they see TR'ing as worth it?So they basically grind gear and TR's so they can play elite with the same level of challenge as hard would offer without the grind? Just how this reads to me.

Now if TRing involved getting fewer build points and needing to run progressively higher level content with each life in order to avoid xp penalties, then it might be worth doing.

You don't seem to think much at all do you?

I must ask, do you turn auto attack on and just use WASD + tab?That would be counter to our discussion on proper targeting priorities. What I don't think about is what others I need to bring along to cover the shortcomings of my character. I take care of that from my side of the keyboard. I really don't care how you would do it with your build and any others you feel you need to get the job done as I'm not interested in playing your build or in your group. You see, playing the same low level content over and over isn't how I prepare to beat the hardest content in the game. It's playing the hardest content in the game until I can beat it despite not grinding out those past lives because I'm more interested in becoming a better player than I am just playing a better character.

[Cordovan]

The next person to engage in bullying and harassment in this thread will be permanently banned from the forums. You have been warned.

[fco-karatekid]

The next person to engage in bullying and harassment in this thread will be permanently banned from the forums. You have been warned.

Can I bully rest, though?

*ducks*

EDIT: Tension breaker, hadda be done.

[Mercureal]

I would like to note the humour factor of a thread titled "Courtesy" going so downhill that a moderator felt the need to issue warnings to the posters about discourteous behaviour. :)

[Singular]

When I'm playing a Meele it's 'cause I wanna kill stuff, not watch it get kited away.
CC & Aoe for the group win. I wish more people got that.

When pugging on my casters, I drop a web or disco, giving the Meeles what they came for. While they're chewing on the CC'd, I go get my share to kill as I see fit. Win/win & everybody has fun :D

It depends on what kind of caster you're playing though. If you're a CC caster, then for sure - CC all the way. On my sorc, I buff the melee as much as I can, keep their haste/rage up at all times, and then try to kill everything :)

Since I run a gimp sorc, I don't expect to outmatch anyone, but on my artie - buff the melee, then kill everything for them :)

[Infant]

Relative to what?

95% relative to 80%...

[Derailment]

The next person to engage in bullying and harassment in this thread will be permanently banned from the forums. You have been warned.

Can I bully rest, though?

*ducks*

EDIT: Tension breaker, hadda be done.

It's only one c'mon. Need to sacrifice just one person so others can continue bullying and harassing.

[Dhalgren]

Relative to what?

Relative to an identically geared toon without the past lives. The multi-TR (let's go with Wiz*3, FvS*3, Sor *3, Clr*3) vs a first lifer with exactly the same gear, enhancments, feats, epic destinies, etc.

The multi-TR will have 9 more spell pen, 120 more spell points, 3 more evocation DC, 3 more conjuration DC, and 8 more build points. From a metagaming standpoint, the player will also have the experience and insight into different classes gained from having played the other classes.

Whether or not this is worth it to the individual player is of course personal. Do you love the end game? Stay at cap and build gear, I guess. Do you want to see more of the game, and keep seeing new things? Keep TRing into new classes, keep relearning what it's like to run around all slow-like and stupid in the harbour, and gain a little something in the process. You also reset your repetitions so can work on your epic destiny at cap each time some more with less planning. Depends on your priorities.

You can absolutely build a capable end-game character without TRing. And, witih epic destinies in play, you can get additional power more easily at cap without TRing. However, the TR also has that available--it just takes longer. But at the end of the day, the multi-TR will always have more power available if all other things remain equal. Claiming that TRing has no advantages at all is simply not supportable.

I stayed at cap for many months on my main before TRing the first time, and made her a fairly capable endgame toon (before U14). After TRing the first time, I just got addicted to it as the endgame just seems so much more diluted now. Not only do I get a little stronger each time, I also extend the replayability of the game and get more insight and knowledge each time I play a different class.

Again, whether it's worth it is a personal call. Claiming that there is no advantage, however, is simply ignoring facts.

[Juduss]

So they basically grind gear and TR's so they can play elite with the same level of challenge as hard would offer without the grind? Just how this reads to me.

There is another under mentioned benefit from TRing: gear options. As it seems to be fairly well accepted that past lives are not neccessary to complete top end content, consider this: 3x sorc past lives on a caster means you just freed up where ever you had that +3 evocation focus item. 2x Barb past life? Sweet, no need to slot toughness. See where I'm going here?

Granted, if someone doesn't enjoy running heroic content extensively this would be an unfun option. For those who don't mind or (like me) enjoy the heroic content as well as epic, past lives do serve more purposes than just making the best a tiny bit better.

[Derailment]

There is another under mentioned benefit from TRing: gear options. As it seems to be fairly well accepted that past lives are not neccessary to complete top end content, consider this: 3x sorc past lives on a caster means you just freed up where ever you had that +3 evocation focus item. 2x Barb past life? Sweet, no need to slot toughness. See where I'm going here?

Nowhere? Lol nobody will give up DC or HP, only stack them.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If we quested together, and you were totally owning the quest, I'd pull my game up to your level for a friendly competition - whoops! Now the quest is finished. Time for another!

I do remember one of the Inpsired island quest I was doing where a mage was just one shotting everything, and I was becoming frustrated on my Rogue from having everything die before I could get to it.

I began to really zerge ahead of the group so I coul dget there first and get some kills.

I also managed to slightly predict which target the mage was going for, and go after something else while his FoD was on timer.


But... my Rogue may be the only character o fmine that could compete in a situation like that.



I had a similar situation on my Monk once.
I dropped group after that single quest, because it was no fun running with people that killed so much faster than me that I felt useless.


It all depends.

I've been in plenty of groups with people that were way above my DPS level, but I did not feel useless because of their playstyle choices.

...and I've been guilty of blasting everything on my Wizard as well....
Although I eventually started to realise how fast I was going through SP, and chose to take it down a notch.


Anyway, intentional or not... purposefully rude or not.... it is no fun playing in a group where you never get to fight anything.

I didn't join a group just to watch someone else kill all of the monsters before I get to fight any of them.

[Perceval]

Um. Just a thought. Break out a bow and shoot. If they want the agro, let them have it. Nothing stopping you from joining in the fun until they have a soul stone for you to put in the nearest lava pit. 11 seconds from a shrine is ok, but that still gives them the cake option. Nothing says "Thank you for the Help" quite so much as a stone placed in a lava trench where cakes are useless.

[Nitesco]

..Past lives are weak and should be the last thing you pursue if you care at all about real power.
ok, see it his way: The 3x cleric/wizard/fighter past lives make you land your web/spellpen check/stun 95% of the time instead of 80% of the time. small increase in power?
relative to what?
95% relative to 80%...

TR'ing without an XP stone is the least efficient way to spend time on character development. Unless you have done everything else already, you will achieve percentile benchmarks of effectiveness much faster through gear and ED's.


Relative to an identically geared toon without the past lives. The multi-TR (let's go with Wiz*3, FvS*3, Sor *3, Clr*3) vs a first lifer with exactly the same gear, enhancments, feats, epic destinies, etc.

If time isn't a factor and you are getting everything anyway, then the order you stack stuff is irrelevant.


The multi-TR will have 9 more spell pen, 120 more spell points, 3 more evocation DC, 3 more conjuration DC, and 8 more build points. From a metagaming standpoint, the player will also have the experience and insight into different classes gained from having played the other classes.

Whether or not this is worth it to the individual player is of course personal. Do you love the end game? Stay at cap and build gear, I guess. Do you want to see more of the game, and keep seeing new things? Keep TRing into new classes, keep relearning what it's like to run around all slow-like and stupid in the harbour, and gain a little something in the process. You also reset your repetitions so can work on your epic destiny at cap each time some more with less planning. Depends on your priorities.

You can absolutely build a capable end-game character without TRing. And, witih epic destinies in play, you can get additional power more easily at cap without TRing. However, the TR also has that available--it just takes longer. But at the end of the day, the multi-TR will always have more power available if all other things remain equal. Claiming that TRing has no advantages at all is simply not supportable.

It's DC casters that potentially get the most out of past lives, but only after stacking everything else as well. In the current endgame, Shiradi Arcane is one of the most powerful builds around and that doesn't require much in the way of gearing OR past lives. It's all relative, but in most cases past lives are of least overall benefit, relative to other benefits you could be pursuing at a similar time cost. I don't recall seeing anyone claiming past lives have zero advantages.


I stayed at cap for many months on my main before TRing the first time, and made her a fairly capable endgame toon (before U14). After TRing the first time, I just got addicted to it as the endgame just seems so much more diluted now. Not only do I get a little stronger each time, I also extend the replayability of the game and get more insight and knowledge each time I play a different class.

Again, whether it's worth it is a personal call. Claiming that there is no advantage, however, is simply ignoring facts.

To which post are you referring?

[Juduss]

To which post are you referring?



Because of experience, +1 DC to tactics, +10 HP, 5% healing amp or something else? Past lives are weak and should be the last thing you pursue if you care at all about real power.

Just for one example

[Nitesco]

Just for one example

Where in that quote does it say there is no advantage to past lives?

[HungarianRhapsody]

Just for one example

If you want to make your character more powerful, the first thing that you should do is acquire some minimal level of gear (which you kind of pick up almost by accident while leveling, so this isn't really a step that most people have to think about). The second thing you should do is run up at least one decent Epic Destiny. The third thing you should do is pick up at least one level 1 twist to make your life easier (energy sheath, etc.). After all of that, getting your hands on some fairly nice gear with multiple effects, augment slots, etc. will help. All of those things will give you more bang for your buck than past lives.

Past lives are very useful because you can get them *in addition to* all of those other things. If you're looking to make your character more powerful as quickly and easily as possible, however, all of those other things should come first. In other words, Past Lives are the last thing you should do if you want to make your character more powerful. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do them. Just that you should consider doing other things first and see if that ends up "good enough" before you throw yourself into the TR hamster wheel.

[MaximusParthas]

When I'm playing a Meele it's 'cause I wanna kill stuff, not watch it get kited away.
CC & Aoe for the group win. I wish more people got that.

When pugging on my casters, I drop a web or disco, giving the Meeles what they came for. While they're chewing on the CC'd, I go get my share to kill as I see fit. Win/win & everybody has fun :D

well said.

[MaximusParthas]

I have no problem if the kiting is crushing it. Then let them continue to crush. Running epic sands walk ups at level 11 on my rogue with a multi TR sorc I sat back as he pulled all the mobs and wiped them out. No problems for me there. As an when a mob got missed I stepped in or lit the alters. I have no problem with that and my ego doesn't take a hit. Sure I'd like to kill a few more mobs, but to do so I need to step up my game. My rogue is a first life and as my 11th toon is like the 11th sibling in that I have been too lazy to gear him out at the start and figured I'd run him for a bit and see if I like him before I do. In any event no problem with the sorc and the LFM indicating that the runs would be farmed and when I joined and saw I was the only non-TR I assumed speed. I could have left at that point if I wanted.

The issue is with kiters that think they are the above mentioned sorc, but they are far from it. They gather up mobs and kite them around doing minimal damage and making it take longer to kill the mobs than it would together. Without a doubt the sorc mentioned above was the fastest way to do it. He was putting up the damage to prove it and kept himself alive. The cleric that tosses out a BB that does garbage damage and tries running 8-10 mobs through it for 10 minutes while the melees try and grab aggro back is not doing anyone any favors. If he were playing solo then all the power to you, but if you can't put up fat stacks of damage and kill your kiting fan club quickly then don't kite. If you can then all the power to you. I won't stop you. Enjoy and thanks for contributing to the party by dropping mobs like Rosie O'Donnell attacking a Hostess cup cake. .

In epic elite content this is always the case.
Your not killing anything that quickly. Instead your just causing problems.

[MindCake]

Circle of Death -> no more Arcanaloths

But if


general trash threat is 0.

then that CoD just managed to waste 1 second of attacking time and 40 of your SP.

[SoloPhalanx]

But if



then that CoD just managed to waste 1 second of attacking time and 40 of your SP.

They do not pose a threat, but are worth my SP so they do not stun/dance/annoy anyone? I can live without that SP. Never ran out of SP in there actually.
What are you getting at? Try a little harder.

[Singular]

I do remember one of the Inpsired island quest I was doing where a mage was just one shotting everything, and I was becoming frustrated on my Rogue from having everything die before I could get to it.

I began to really zerge ahead of the group so I coul dget there first and get some kills.

I also managed to slightly predict which target the mage was going for, and go after something else while his FoD was on timer.


But... my Rogue may be the only character o fmine that could compete in a situation like that.



I had a similar situation on my Monk once.
I dropped group after that single quest, because it was no fun running with people that killed so much faster than me that I felt useless.


It all depends.

I've been in plenty of groups with people that were way above my DPS level, but I did not feel useless because of their playstyle choices.

...and I've been guilty of blasting everything on my Wizard as well....
Although I eventually started to realise how fast I was going through SP, and chose to take it down a notch.


Anyway, intentional or not... purposefully rude or not.... it is no fun playing in a group where you never get to fight anything.

I didn't join a group just to watch someone else kill all of the monsters before I get to fight any of them.

I honestly don't mind so much as long as I can learn from them.

But, yeah, when the game changed to favoring casters over melee, I went from killing most things to running toward them just before they died. TWF becomes meat shield!

I suppose it can be like tennis - you can play with people much, much better than you, and your game can improve as you learn, but at some point, it's just not doing anything for you and gets annoying.

[QuantumFX]

problem with a rogue getting his sneak attack ahead of the party is that the rogue cant sneak fast enough ahead of the party.

You can use the bluff skill while closing the distance to the mob.

[goodspeed]

ya those thousand hourglass wizards are nice to have to use, but they're annoyign when you wanna play with your magic or weapons. So I just discriminate until their usefulness is needed. Because that's how ddo rolls!

[fuzzy1guy]

Alot of caster types have a solo mentality, build, and playstyle.

Kick them out and reform.. Unless you want to follow along behind them being in awe of how uber they are. because that's the only possible reason they have any group at all.

If its their party.. Drop and make another. You're not going to have any fun... You're not REALLY impressed with them.. So just get away from that crud.

I have no idea why these people join groups. Or put up lfms... They dont need a party. They don't play as a group. And we're not impressed how uber they are... Giant waste of time and no fun.

Unless you wanted a pike to completion... Just drop and get away from them. When they ask why... tell them why.
(they wont learn and will call you a noob most likely. but hey... at least the message they recieve is consistent)

[Charononus]

Alot of caster types have a solo mentality, build, and playstyle.

Kick them out and reform.. Unless you want to follow along behind them being in awe of how uber they are. because that's the only possible reason they have any group at all.

If its their party.. Drop and make another. You're not going to have any fun... You're not REALLY impressed with them.. So just get away from that crud.

I have no idea why these people join groups. Or put up lfms... They dont need a party. They don't play as a group. And we're not impressed how uber they are... Giant waste of time and no fun.

Unless you wanted a pike to completion... Just drop and get away from them. When they ask why... tell them why.
(they wont learn and will call you a noob most likely. but hey... at least the message they recieve is consistent)

Ok all of you complaining about casters just being soloists here is a question for you. I'm leveling my tr junkie toon as a sorc currently. At the moment I can cast a fireball and have it one shot every mob in the room on elite. You complain that the caster is esentially asking you to pike but you are asking them not to cast, don't you see any hypocrisy in that?

[fuzzy1guy]

Ok all of you complaining about casters just being soloists here is a question for you. I'm leveling my tr junkie toon as a sorc currently. At the moment I can cast a fireball and have it one shot every mob in the room on elite. You complain that the caster is esentially asking you to pike but you are asking them not to cast, don't you see any hypocrisy in that?

If you can do that. Solo. You have no need of a group. Why are you sucking the fun out of 5 other players because you can oneshot everything....

Use some of the OTHER spells in your book. web, hold, hypno, loop, clouds, firewall, dance, sleep, knockdown spells, halt undead, flesh to stone, debuffs, level drain.
Turn a meta off.
Or tensors and pull out a weapon and join the fun. Oneshotting the high threat things like enemy casters.

Yes. As a caster you can waste everything in your way 99% of the time..
But as a GOOD caster people want in their partys because they are fun to play with.. You've got to learn how to hold back when it's needed. Which is most of the time.

Save your uber room killing oneshots for when it's needed.
Someones about to die. Someones down. You're off by yourself. it hit the fan and went sideways.

Casters almost always can determine exactly how fights play out.
You shouldn't even be looking at the killcount because yes, you can top it every single time if you try.

Everyone else wants to have fun too... And it's NO fun watching someone else play.

Or else go solo. Or expect alot of groups won't want you back.
After the quest is over suddenly everyone else has somewhere else to be. And you won't be invited to do stuff because you were no fun to play with.

[Charononus]

If you can do that. Solo. You have no need of a group. Why are you sucking the fun out of 5 other players because you can oneshot everything....

Use some of the OTHER spells in your book. web, hold, hypno, loop, clouds, firewall, dance, sleep, knockdown spells, halt undead, flesh to stone, debuffs, level drain.
Turn a meta off.
Or tensors and pull out a weapon and join the fun. Oneshotting the high threat things like enemy casters.

Yes. As a caster you can waste everything in your way 99% of the time..
But as a GOOD caster people want in their partys because they are fun to play with.. You've got to learn how to hold back when it's needed. Which is most of the time.

Save your uber room killing oneshots for when it's needed.
Someones about to die. Someones down. You're off by yourself. it hit the fan and went sideways.

Casters almost always can determine exactly how fights play out.
You shouldn't even be looking at the killcount because yes, you can top it every single time if you try.

Everyone else wants to have fun too... And it's NO fun watching someone else play.

Or else go solo. Or expect alot of groups won't want you back.
After the quest is over suddenly everyone else has somewhere else to be. And you won't be invited to do stuff because you were no fun to play with.

Yes you can solo everything (mostly) in the game as caster. The point is of the group is to meet others, most of my groups read, ip, byoh, bb. That said I feel that your suggestions are the same as telling a melee to not use their lit2 but to use a club of the silver flame instead. Pre u9 when melee were much more powerful if a caster had asked you that what would you have responded? It's the same thing, as such your advice reeks of hypocrisy.

[Dhalgren]

If you can do that. Solo. You have no need of a group. Why are you sucking the fun out of 5 other players because you can oneshot everything....

Use some of the OTHER spells in your book. web, hold, hypno, loop, clouds, firewall, dance, sleep, knockdown spells, halt undead, flesh to stone, debuffs, level drain.
Turn a meta off.
Or tensors and pull out a weapon and join the fun. Oneshotting the high threat things like enemy casters.

Yes. As a caster you can waste everything in your way 99% of the time..
But as a GOOD caster people want in their partys because they are fun to play with.. You've got to learn how to hold back when it's needed. Which is most of the time.

Save your uber room killing oneshots for when it's needed.
Someones about to die. Someones down. You're off by yourself. it hit the fan and went sideways.

Casters almost always can determine exactly how fights play out.
You shouldn't even be looking at the killcount because yes, you can top it every single time if you try.

Everyone else wants to have fun too... And it's NO fun watching someone else play.

Or else go solo. Or expect alot of groups won't want you back.
After the quest is over suddenly everyone else has somewhere else to be. And you won't be invited to do stuff because you were no fun to play with.

(I should preface this by saying that I am not one of these solo-everything players).

You're doing it wrong. Well, you're getting it backwards, anyway.

It is not your place (or anyone else's) to be asking these people to not put up LFMs. It is your job to not join those LFMs. If it's not clear from the posting and you enter only to find that it's not the kind of group you want to run with, drop. It's that simple. You don't ask others to play below their ability because you don't feel like you can compete (whatever that means in the context of everybody trying to achieve the same goal). You figure what you can add to the party's effectiveness, and do it. If you can't, and you feel piking a completion doesn't appeal to you, then yeah--leave and find another group where you can feel like you're contributing. But don't blame the people who are contributing.

Some people post the LFMs to meet others. Some post to give other people a hand with XP/chests/favour/whatever. If the people joining then feel robbed then they should have found a group more to their liking.

I'll solo Weapons Shipment when at that level and put up an LFM for the chests. I usually don't post the LFM until after the final devil-on-titan fun has begun, because I don't like to ask others to not step in until I'm done and unless it's a really good party, more bodies just make it harder. That's just me though. Others might want to open the LFM earlier to allow people more time to get there or switch toons or so on. Is offering others the shot at a free bauble really that bad?

All that said, whatever your personal opinion may be, the player who is "invited to do stuff" is the one who will help achieve a successful completion the easiest (bonus points for not being an ass while doing so). We know what kind of player you'd invite back first. Do you presume to speak for the general population on the topic of who they will call back?

[Juduss]

You have no need of a group.
Social interaction.
Traps need disabling.
Multiple objectives are completed faster by splitting up.
But hey, what do I know...
Edit: more stuff:
Runes/levers require a variety of stats.
Similtanious lever pulls.
Do you need more examples?


And you won't be invited to do stuff because you were no fun to play with.
Please take your ball and drop group then.

[fuzzy1guy]

Yes you can solo everything (mostly) in the game as caster. The point is of the group is to meet others, most of my groups read, ip, byoh, bb. That said I feel that your suggestions are the same as telling a melee to not use their lit2 but to use a club of the silver flame instead. Pre u9 when melee were much more powerful if a caster had asked you that what would you have responded? It's the same thing, as such your advice reeks of hypocrisy.

I play nothing but casters. And i've had friends flat out tell me it was no fun watching me kill. No matter how fast it got completions. I didn't make this advice up as a melee. I was told it multiple times as a caster who has zero problem soloing anything in the entire game.

People like to have fun. Very few are looking for the fastest quests possible. Pre u9 didnt matter either. Casters have always been powerful. Unlimited damage depending on your wallet. Self healing. And able to solo anything without a mechanic to require multiple people.

But. to each their own.

Just be very clear in your lfm's you post what you're doing.

And maybe think about all those times you said to yourself 'dammit' as you watched the caster zerg solo the entire dungeon and you get to pike along behind them... How fun was that? ;)



Please take your ball and drop group then.

I bet alot of groups you join or start break up after one quest.

[Juduss]

I bet alot of groups you join or start break up after one quest.
I'll take that bet, I'm on Thelanis, currently working on Myhealer. Level 10, almost 11. Flagging VoN & farming Shadow Crypt in a few hours. Join my pug & see if it lasts.

And judging by your tone in these posts, I'm guessing it's not just your uber playstyle that has your "friends" not wanting to play with you.

[Juduss]

Never mind.

I just looked up your posting history and all you do is whine and complain. Instead of joining my pugs... please, please just squelch me.

[HAL]

Yes you can solo everything (mostly) in the game as caster. The point is of the group is to meet others, most of my groups read, ip, byoh, bb. That said I feel that your suggestions are the same as telling a melee to not use their lit2 but to use a club of the silver flame instead. Pre u9 when melee were much more powerful if a caster had asked you that what would you have responded? It's the same thing, as such your advice reeks of hypocrisy.

If you want to group because its fun, you should care if the group is having any fun. You can change your tactics to be group friendly. Use CC instead of AOE so the melees can share some of the fun. Save your big spells for Oh Sh! moments or boss fights. Then the rest of the group will be glad of them. If you can only have fun by ruining everyone else's fun, that's pretty selfish.

[MaximusParthas]

If you can solo epic elite content, but you join a norm or hard run, never say a word of conversation to anyone, then just blast off and start kiting nuking (usually even before the party enters the quest), then from where I sit you didn't join that group for the social aspect. You just wanted witnesses to your "greatness".

Post a screenshot and save us the time wasted.

[Charononus]

If you want to group because its fun, you should care if the group is having any fun. You can change your tactics to be group friendly. Use CC instead of AOE so the melees can share some of the fun. Save your big spells for Oh Sh! moments or boss fights. Then the rest of the group will be glad of them. If you can only have fun by ruining everyone else's fun, that's pretty selfish.

When you're leveling a sorc you probably don't have cc spells but either way it's you saying don't cast and it is greatly hypocritical.

[Charononus]

If you can solo epic elite content, but you join a norm or hard run, never say a word of conversation to anyone, then just blast off and start kiting nuking (usually even before the party enters the quest), then from where I sit you didn't join that group for the social aspect. You just wanted witnesses to your "greatness".

Post a screenshot and save us the time wasted.

Right because I mentioned ee in my post about leveling a tr.

[Gremmlynn]

If you can do that. Solo. You have no need of a group. Why are you sucking the fun out of 5 other players because you can oneshot everything....

Use some of the OTHER spells in your book. web, hold, hypno, loop, clouds, firewall, dance, sleep, knockdown spells, halt undead, flesh to stone, debuffs, level drain.
Turn a meta off.
Or tensors and pull out a weapon and join the fun. Oneshotting the high threat things like enemy casters.

Yes. As a caster you can waste everything in your way 99% of the time..
But as a GOOD caster people want in their partys because they are fun to play with.. You've got to learn how to hold back when it's needed. Which is most of the time.

Save your uber room killing oneshots for when it's needed.
Someones about to die. Someones down. You're off by yourself. it hit the fan and went sideways.

Casters almost always can determine exactly how fights play out.
You shouldn't even be looking at the killcount because yes, you can top it every single time if you try.

Everyone else wants to have fun too... And it's NO fun watching someone else play.

Or else go solo. Or expect alot of groups won't want you back.
After the quest is over suddenly everyone else has somewhere else to be. And you won't be invited to do stuff because you were no fun to play with.Personally I think this is more a case of it being better to blame the game than the player. It's rather silly to expect players to play stupidly simply because the game makes playing to the best of one's abilities to easy. AoE spells in DDO really should have been toned down whenever it was decided to remove their PnP balancing factor (friendly fire). While DC casting is just silly in today's game as in nearly any quest it"s either stupidly easy or a waste of a character slot to bring a DC focused caster based on what their DCs are.

[Singular]

If you can do that. Solo. You have no need of a group. Why are you sucking the fun out of 5 other players because you can oneshot everything....

Use some of the OTHER spells in your book. web, hold, hypno, loop, clouds, firewall, dance, sleep, knockdown spells, halt undead, flesh to stone, debuffs, level drain.
Turn a meta off.
Or tensors and pull out a weapon and join the fun. Oneshotting the high threat things like enemy casters.

Yes. As a caster you can waste everything in your way 99% of the time..
But as a GOOD caster people want in their partys because they are fun to play with.. You've got to learn how to hold back when it's needed. Which is most of the time.

Save your uber room killing oneshots for when it's needed.
Someones about to die. Someones down. You're off by yourself. it hit the fan and went sideways.

Casters almost always can determine exactly how fights play out.
You shouldn't even be looking at the killcount because yes, you can top it every single time if you try.

Everyone else wants to have fun too... And it's NO fun watching someone else play.

Or else go solo. Or expect alot of groups won't want you back.
After the quest is over suddenly everyone else has somewhere else to be. And you won't be invited to do stuff because you were no fun to play with.

Wow, this post sounds like "if you're too good at the game, it bothers people like me. I don't want to learn from you, I just want you out of my view so I don't have to be shown what a good player can achieve."

Attention Casters: if you one-shot everything, you're welcome in my group! I want to watch your speed and try to match you.