Negative Energy Burst needs a boost for epic content

[cypan41]

Please consider making a negative energy line in enhancements for Wizards. In epic content, especially epic elite, the bursts of 150 hps to maybe 250 on a crit is quickly becoming useless. Come summer and the level rise, it is going to be like running around in epic content with a cure moderate wand.
Not to mention, even now, I can't remember the last time I saw a Pale Master use Necrotic Bolt or Blast in any epic content. On the other hand I see Arch Mages casting Magic Missile and Chain Missile constantly.
Since the nerf to Wail, it seems Pale Masters could use some work to get them up to even 3/4's the power of a normal caster. The inability to enhance their specialized spell line seems like an oversight. Maybe it was fine when the cap was 20. But now with Epics. It really begins to show it's issues.

Thanks

[vystal]

My experience with my Palemaster on epics was apparently different then yours. I in fact used necrotic ray constantly and found it to be strong enough against any living foe especially considering it's super low spell point cost per cast, and extended range. Of coarse, that being said, I would have loved to have some more enhancements available to beef it up even more (who wouldn't?). But I think the real issue here with negative energy enhancements for pale masters is not a problem of more offensive spellpower, it's the fact that palemasters use that same energy to heal themselves while at the same time damaging foes around them (with negative energy burst and death aura). So basically, it's a double edged sword. By amplifying their offensive power you are at the same time enhancing their regenerative healing power which is already one of the palemasters most deadly traits. High level Palemaster's are some of the hardest characters to kill in the game as it is. They regenerate hitpoints so quickly (when built and equipped right) that only an endless barrage of damage and criticals can put their hitpoints low enough to put them down for good. (Or the occasional high level light spell...pray you're not in vampire form when it arrives...lol). Anyway, not saying I completely disagree, I'm just saying I think you run a risk here of making them a little too powerful overall.

[cypan41]

Necrotic ray is a good spell. Though if it's undead. Or cast a simple deathward spell, as a lot of mobs do. Poof. There goes that. Same with all the necro spells. I do agree that the aura might be an issue. But certainly not the burst.
And also, too powerful? Even if the aura did twice the healing, nothing is gonna be called overpowered on a Pale Master when Juggernauts are around. ;)

[Missing_Minds]

A level 4 spell... needs a boost.
Ya know, I just don't see that going to happen.

Quite honestly, you stand a better chance finding high level spells in WOTC books and request them to be added.

[vystal]

lol...point taken about the juggernauts.

As far as neg burst, I personally only used it for emergency healing...not damage. If I suddenly got smashed by a critical hit or worse, a light spell...i'de jump for cover casting neg burst for a few seconds and be back to the the top of my hit points again. I guess that's my point...I don't see negative energy burst as a damage spell...I see it as a healing spell. In fact, it's the polar opposite of a cleric positive energy burst...the fact that it damages nearby undead is more of a secondary benefit to it's main benefit of mass healing.

[bigolbear]

Agree with the issue, simplest fix i can see is adding harm to a wizards spell list.

As a lvl 4 spell neg energy burst is prety good, but as you say the burst healing isnt keeping up with hps.

[JustMe_ca]

Maybe a simple way to make things like neg energy burst / aura boosted for the wizard and less so for the surrounding is to have healing amp affect the amount you get healed (or hurt) for...

[Scraap]

A level 4 spell... needs a boost.
Ya know, I just don't see that going to happen.

Quite honestly, you stand a better chance finding high level spells in WOTC books and request them to be added.

I did notice one of the shiradi procs mention a necrotic cloud. Here's to hoping that's a hint on future development.

[Vordax]

I think the best fix would be to remove the level cap on the spell. The spell does no additional damage after level 10.


Negative energy expands from the caster, doing 1d4+4 negative energy damage per 2 caster levels (Maximum damage 5d4+20.)

Scaling this to 25 would give it the healing power needed for those Oh-**** moments.

[redspecter23]

Now I've seen it all. Casters complaining about self healing options. Get in line behind the barbs and fighters.

All joking aside, I'm hoping for some higher level spells and abilities all around either through the enhancement pass or level 10+ spells or SLA's. Possibly even a destiny that enhances palemasters. A great many abilities cap out far too early when the level cap is being raised to 28 shortly. That would be great if there were higher level versions of those spells and abilities but in general, the epic destiny system added very little in the way of new "spells" or SLA's aside from a few notable standouts. A higher level negative SLA associated with a new epic destiny could fill the gap, though as mentioned, it would have to be checked for balance.

[Ellihor]

My experience with my Palemaster on epics was apparently different then yours. I in fact used necrotic ray constantly and found it to be strong enough against any living foe especially considering it's super low spell point cost per cast, and extended range. Of coarse, that being said, I would have loved to have some more enhancements available to beef it up even more (who wouldn't?). But I think the real issue here with negative energy enhancements for pale masters is not a problem of more offensive spellpower, it's the fact that palemasters use that same energy to heal themselves while at the same time damaging foes around them (with negative energy burst and death aura). So basically, it's a double edged sword. By amplifying their offensive power you are at the same time enhancing their regenerative healing power which is already one of the palemasters most deadly traits. High level Palemaster's are some of the hardest characters to kill in the game as it is. They regenerate hitpoints so quickly (when built and equipped right) that only an endless barrage of damage and criticals can put their hitpoints low enough to put them down for good. (Or the occasional high level light spell...pray you're not in vampire form when it arrives...lol). Anyway, not saying I completely disagree, I'm just saying I think you run a risk here of making them a little too powerful overall.

She is talkng about necrotic bolt and necrotic blast, not necrotic ray. Anyways, it is not sp woth compared to other things like a magic missiles with shiradi... This should be be main pale mester single target nuke spell, not magic misslies. I dont know where you see this spell is strong, oh nvm i think you play epic hard. For epic elite a mob have 7k hp and will likely do a fortidude save for half so with max its hitting 400-480 points for 10 base + 10 quicken + about 17 max + 12 heighten = 49 sp. Or 9 damage per spell point if you hit 450. Not good.

Also, the main reason of the OP is not to give more damage for pms (I do think they really need more, we should have an energy burst-like effect epic moment made of force or negative as epic moment in magister, and PM slas should be affected by metas), but theyr healing. I dont know why you see it as "theyr most deadly traits". IMHO pale masters have the worst healing options from casters, except fleshy archmages or sorcs. They do not regenerate hit points so quicly as you say also. Ofc theyre very good for heroic and EH content, but an aura that heals you for 40-60, more on crits, every 2 secs is not enough for EE when trash is hitting for 200-400. They are some of the harder characters to kill in the game... meh. Its sounds so pre u13 talk.

PMs need a lot of buff. Ofc, first fix wail. Next dump one of the sigils from magister and change for secondary school dcs. Dump the magister capstone and either give something that let us deal decent DPS or some burst spike DPS like a force or negative energy burst, or some lasting epic moment like tea or sustained by kills like blitz. In the heroic enhancemnts, the SLAs need to be affected by metas, as well as aura, and we need something like a harm. And more dc too, to match the EE lvs. Casting a 50 sp energy drain + a 50 sp FoD to have the mob saving my 56 dc is just stupid for a character specced to kill with this spell. The tier 3 PrE could give an evervation SLA too. Hm, another idea i just had could be a negative energy dot.

I know some of these suggestions would break the game for heroic lvs, its hard to balance. So, for aura and SLAs we could just get a bump at 20th, but i know turbne is never going to do a spell like 2d4 + 1 per two heroic caster lv + x per epic lvs. Maybe a fix to this could be some negative spellpower or caster lv/caster lv cap bump when you hit 20, that comes from and enhancemnt that has as pre-requisit you to be lv 20 and pale master III.

[Fecerak]

I personally would be happy if they just let quicken apply to the SLAs and gave us some better form for burst self-healing.

[redspecter23]

I personally would be happy if they just let quicken apply to the SLAs and gave us some better form for burst self-healing.

I think metamagics should apply to all SLA's for the sake of consistency. If an ability is overpowered because of the metamagics applied to it, then balance the base ability properly. It bothers me to no end the inconsistency applied to SLA's.

[HungarianRhapsody]

High level Palemaster's are some of the hardest characters to kill in the game as it is. They regenerate hitpoints so quickly (when built and equipped right) that only an endless barrage of damage and criticals can put their hitpoints low enough to put them down for good.

On Epic Normal and Epic Hard, they're essentially unkillable.

On Epic Elite, they're astonishingly fragile.

It doesn't take an endless barrage of damage and criticals (especially since they don't take criticals) to kill them. An endless barrage of small hits won't kill them since a big portion of their regeneration comes from on-hit effects. It takes a few really big hits to kill them. Just about every hit in Epic Elite is a big hit.

Since you can't speed up your healing from the Death Aura by casting it more often, your only source of healing is from the Burst. And that doesn't heal all that much when you look at the casting speed and the cooldown.

I don't think that the existing spells need to be buffed, but I do think that a couple of high level spells added in would be helpful and appropriate.

[Ape_Man]

Lower the saves so necro casters aren't **** and I won't care about my gimped healing.

[Missing_Minds]

I did notice one of the shiradi procs mention a necrotic cloud. Here's to hoping that's a hint on future development.

That would be nice.

[vystal]

"palemaster's have the worst healing options from casters, except fleshy archmages and sorcs..."

So basically, they have the worst healing options, except for every other true arcane caster who's not warforged. Good Point /:

You can trash my opinion on it all you want, but I I don't care how you want to twist it there are only a couple characters in the game with the luxury to walk around constantly regenerating hit points. IT IS AN ADVANTAGE even if you don't think it gives YOU enough of an advantage. If you're gonna walk up and melee with epic elite monsters, then yes, don't be surprised to get dealt a blow that will end your run quickly. But if you are doing that, then perhaps you've forgotten that you are a caster?? All caster's face the challenge of avoiding melee whenever possible. Just an FYI, I took two levels of monk for evasion and insightful reflexes also giving me a reflex save through the roof making it extremely difficult to take any damage from AOE spells, etc. Combine that will constant hit point regeneration, everything you can get your hands on to boost your con and hit points...bah, I'm not gonna go any further...if you're fragile, you're doing something wrong.

P.S. What is there to talk about around necrotic bolt? Who's gonna run around casting away their hit points for damage when you can use spell points to do the same thing but more effectively?

Moving on, I do totally agree the level cap should be increased for necrotic ray as well as most other spells to better deal with and keep useful these spells for the higher levels being added to the game.

On another note...I've been wondering about this for a while and have not yet been able to try it:

If four palemaster's enter a dungeon with their death aura's within range of each other, are they regenerating 4x the hitpoints from their aura and the other's aura's combined? At least, they should be since that is what is implied...
I know for certain they are dealing 4x the damage to all living foes just by standing next to them.

I also know for certain all of their undead minions are getting healed constantly for 4x the amount.

If these things are true, seems like a bit of an edge over the living to me. Of coarse, all this goes away the second undead enemies come into play...

[HungarianRhapsody]

You can trash my opinion on it all you want, but I I don't care how you want to twist it there are only a couple characters in the game with the luxury to walk around constantly regenerating hit points. IT IS AN ADVANTAGE even if you don't think it gives YOU enough of an advantage.

That is entirely true. Constantly regenerating HP just by standing still (and getting even more HP back when you get hit) is absolutely an advantage. It's an AMAZING advantage on EN and EH. It's ASTONISHINGLY sturdy when soloing EN and EH especially. And it's not enough to make up for the drawbacks of being entirely immune to positive energy healing and Repair/Reconstruction on EE.




P.S. What is there to talk about around necrotic bolt? Who's gonna run around casting away their hit points for damage when you can use spell points to do the same thing but more effectively?

Because your HP come back when you just stand there and the same thing doesn't happen with your SP. ;)


If four palemaster's enter a dungeon with their death aura's within range of each other, are they regenerating 4x the hitpoints from their aura and the other's aura's combined? At least, they should be since that is what is implied...
I know for certain they are dealing 4x the damage to all living foes just by standing next to them.

I ran an all-Pale Master Shroud once. It was absolutely hysterical. We all turned on our Auras and stood next to each other. We giggled every time Harry took a swing at us.

[Kinerd]

Wizards already have a negative enhancement line: Pale Master 3 gives a total of 90 spell power and 9% critical chance, or the equivalent of 6/6/0.

I did some calculations recently (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4816650#post4816650) that I think provide an interesting counterpoint to "PMs need help relative to normal casters". What negative spellbook healing lacks in spikiness it offers in SP efficiency. Being able to purchase Reconstruct scrolls is a major advantage, but if this is the problem address it directly rather than hoping to get at it endwise with a second negative enhancement line.

I think in the end, we are running arcanes. If the fix goes in any direction, it's going to be making us more fragile, not even more indestructible.

[kilagan800]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Staff_of_the_Necromancer

Level 21 Staff of the Necromancer is a very good friend of mine. I run all over epic levels like a hot knife through butter, but would appreciate any up-to-date changes the devs offer.

However, imo, the cleric spell caps need some serious updating. Caps should be changed from level 10 to level 20. DP is the only light spell worth using, the others aren't worth having except for spell slot fillers.

[vystal]

There is one thing I would really like to see happen for the palemaster with the new level cap and that is the ability to summon another type of higher level undead minion beyond level 20. Below level 20 your undead minions are another strength of the palemaster along with the fact that his/her death aura can heal them. They help to keep a good percentage of the threat off you if nothing else. But at level 20, epics and beyond, your minions become essentially useless since a good strike from almost any epic enemy can dispose of them in one shot.

[Ape_Man]

There is one thing I would really like to see happen for the palemaster with the new level cap and that is the ability to summon another type of higher level undead minion beyond level 20. Below level 20 your undead minions are another strength of the palemaster along with the fact that his/her death aura can heal them. They help to keep a good percentage of the threat off you if nothing else. But at level 20, epics and beyond, your minions become essentially useless since a good strike from almost any epic enemy can dispose of them in one shot.

You've got to be kidding me.

[Vordax]

You've got to be kidding me.

I would agree here. I never found the minions to be worth the effort. Much rather spend the AP elsewhere. I still think raising the cap on negative energy burst from level 10 to level 20 would fix this issue. Still not going to heal a huge amount, but at least it will scale a bit better with level.

[Scraap]

You've got to be kidding me.

I'd generally say they're Ok cheap dps up till around a level or so before the next one kicks in, but that's when I'm the one with agro, not the other way around. Most times, yeah, not worth the AP.

Though if we're going to talk the PM package en-toto, it'd be nice to also see the stat-drain melee effects of forms applied to necro spells as an additional debuff option, or at least to the slas.

[danotmano1998]

You've got to be kidding me.

I third this sentiment..
The summons are, for the most part, so useless is this game as to be laughable.

[count_spicoli]

I got an idea. Roll up a wareforge AM and be done with it. I for one never cared for pm.

[vystal]

Ok, I'm gonna post once more on this and then put the undead to rest...

If I was to sum up the majority's thoughts contained in this entire thread it would go something like this...

The Palemaster is extremely lacking in offensive spell power.

The Palemaster's ability to self heal, although useful, does not add up to the ability to take incoming healing or reconstruction.

The Palemaster is astonishingly fragile, especially on EE.

Negative energy burst healing and death aura are both too weak to provide enough healing to counteract these things.

The Palemaster's necrotic ray and bursts are both also useless because they are too weak.

The Palemaster's undead minion's are useless...or, laughable even, regardless of your ability to heal them as well with your death aura and negative energy bursts, or you're ability to have more then one summoned at a time (in combination with summon undead spell).

With consideration of all of these things, it seems to be an amazing feet then that hundreds (or probably more like thousands ) of players have taken Palemasters to level cap, and even more astonishing, continue to play them...given the fact that they are so terribly lacking in almost every area they were designed for.

Or...just maybe...it goes all the way back to the beginning when you open up character creation and read the text next to the necromancer that says one word "challenging". Now if you were to actually choose that "path" it would be more the "challenging", it should say "disastrous". But a custom, well built Palemaster is sometimes exactly that "challenging", and at many times if you are familiar with the game, not that challenging at all.

After playing the game avidly for many years, I think challenging is exactly what a player is looking for (or at least I am). Running around hack and slashing everything, or one-shoting 75% of the enemies thrown at you becomes almost painful in it's redundancy. I personally don't create my character's so I can line them up next to the "elitists" of the game and count how many hitpoints and epic items we have, I create and play them to have a new, unique, exciting, and ultimately fun experience leveling them. I think (at least for me) playing a palemaster has all of those things. I just don't think it's broken in the way it's being made out to be in this thread.

Now I'm gonna get back to playing the game instead of talking about it so I can hurry up and reincarnate my TR back into a Palemaster again.

[cypan41]

vystal, I was with you up until

"With consideration of all of these things, it seems to be an amazing feet then that hundreds (or probably more like thousands ) of players have taken Palemasters to level cap, and even more astonishing, continue to play them...given the fact that they are so terribly lacking in almost every area they were designed for."

It's not amazing. It's actually obvious to many of us who are in, say, large guilds how many Pale Masters there are Not being played anymore. Or who have been reincarnated into something Other than PM's.

There was a time I remember seeing about 50% of our guilds mages as PM's. Now, there are maybe 5%. No joke.



Oh, and what the post was all about is the EE content and beyond to lvl 28 this summer, and the inability of PM's to keep up with healing. *just to focus* Really would love to hear a dev talk about this.

[squishwizzy]

I find this thread somewhat amusing.

I'm not sure where people get the whole concept of PM's having bad self-healing. Last time I checked, if you wanted a toon that could sit there and get wailed on by every mob imaginable, roll a pally tank. A pure caster is not suppoed to be a melee toon,l period. Yeah, you can do *some* tanking in *some* situations. However, if you are rolling a PM to basically run content where you take huge amounts of damage in quest, then you need to look at something else for your questing pleasure. That is not the focus of a caster.

And if you thing the WF is the end-all-be-all of casterdom, then you've given up on things like spell pen.

Necrotic touch / bolt / whatever is very nice for standing in the back, smacking down trash mobs, and DOT-ing a boss. Maybe it works on EE, maybe it doesn't. What it does do well is doing damage that costs you zero SP, especially when running with a couple of Death Auras going.

If you expect to self-heal, tank, and spam necro freebie SLAs and survive on EE, I don't know what yo tell you. That is insane. if that were the case, there would be no need to run any other type of toon as the PM would litarally do it all (well, OK, maybe the exception of trapping).

And sorry, a WF reconstruct is not as powerful as a Death Aura or NEB. It does no damage. It is a drain on the SP pool for damage output. It may be nice if you intend to zerg everything on EE (don't quite know how that would be possible), but as a team contributor, you'd end up a soulstone in time. And I have a really hard time believing that the people running a WF AM with a quickened Reconstruct are going to be as aggressive as some of the people running their PMs and complaining that they are "too fragile." Most likely they are standing at the back of a party, and avoiding damage.

And lets all remember: there are lots of levels before 20. Life doesn't begin at lvl 20.

My PM, while probably not as uber as some toons, is pretty powerful now. Then again, I get aggressive when I can afford it, and I sit my a** at the back of the party when the situation dictates. If you can't change your tactics for the situation, it isn't the game's fault that it's standing in the way of your ultimate glory: it's your own inability to adapt.

I can see increasing NEB a little for epic content given the damage scaling and so on. What I really don't like or care for is the need to constantly change things because you can't run EE content like you did Butcher's Path on hard.

And frankly speaking, if it gets to the point that the only way you can run anything is with an WF AM with Twisted Shadow Assassin Sharardi (or whatever the ED uber flavor of the month is on this forum), I'd probably drop DDO. It will have been dumbed-down to the point of being irrelevent.

[SealedInSong]

I think metamagics should apply to all SLA's for the sake of consistency. If an ability is overpowered because of the metamagics applied to it, then balance the base ability properly. It bothers me to no end the inconsistency applied to SLA's.

Very much agreed on this.

If the ability is too powerful with a meta, they should just scale it back the way they did with healing/repair spellpower.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I find this thread somewhat amusing.

I'm not sure where people get the whole concept of PM's having bad self-healing. Last time I checked, if you wanted a toon that could sit there and get wailed on by every mob imaginable, roll a pally tank. A pure caster is not suppoed to be a melee toon,l period. Yeah, you can do *some* tanking in *some* situations. However, if you are rolling a PM to basically run content where you take huge amounts of damage in quest, then you need to look at something else for your questing pleasure. That is not the focus of a caster.

Mostly because a Pale Master is significantly less survivable on EE than a WF that is not in Lich form. A Pale Master *can* take huge amounts of damage in a quest - they just can't take it all in one shot. :)

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

new epic destiny: Necromancer!

new undead summons
mass undead summon cap!



necromancy DC's through the roof!



necromancy spell power/level just became like a savant


new spells like Greater Death Aura, Blood Knife, and the capstone: Death


all this and more for PMs!


is that what you want?