FoT BOOM, Epic, Pugs, and Game Direction

[Charononus]

To start off I'd like to just touch on one of the big changes from u14 which is how epic was changed to four difficulties that opened up epic levels to the entire playerbase. While I would have personally tweaked some of the difficulty up on epic hard, I think the developers did probably the right thing on this and the different gear qualities for normal/hard/elite. It also represented a direction that game development to go and allowed you to take a pug into any content without having to screen players or know them first and still have a decent chance for success.

FoT BOOM addition seems to take part of that back. While boom can be mitigated it takes a very coordinated group to do so. This means that PUGs will likely not be able to complete FoT for a significant amount of time, perhaps till the next expansion when they can be over leveled and outgear it. This leads back to the system we had pre-u14 when epic raids were mostly guild/channel and if they were pugged they were screened to one extent or another.

This leads me to a question and a suggestion. Dev's was this the direction you wanted the game to take with the addition of eGH and FoT in particular? If not I'd like to make the suggestion that epic normal FoT be reverted to the pre-boom version with the drop rate items including commendations cut in half. This will lead to FoT becoming puggable again, but keep the elite from farming normal as the fastest way to get the gear that they want. Those that are casual or don't have access to guild/channel runs of FoT still get to run the raid and work on getting the gear just slower, and those that want the challenge and to farm the gear faster can do so. This seems to fit far better with the direction in game development you've gone in for the past year.

Edit* I don't think it needs to be total u17p0 on eNorm, the dragons and giants should revive at full health still rather than 25% or whatever it was before.

[Forzah]

Sounds reasonable to me.

While they're at it, they should also make epic hard more in between normal and elite for any quest to better target all audiences.

[moops]

To start off I'd like to just touch on one of the big changes from u14 which is how epic was changed to four difficulties that opened up epic levels to the entire playerbase. While I would have personally tweaked some of the difficulty up on epic hard, I think the developers did probably the right thing on this and the different gear qualities for normal/hard/elite. It also represented a direction that game development to go and allowed you to take a pug into any content without having to screen players or know them first and still have a decent chance for success.

FoT BOOM addition seems to take part of that back. While boom can be mitigated it takes a very coordinated group to do so. This means that PUGs will likely not be able to complete FoT for a significant amount of time, perhaps till the next expansion when they can be over leveled and outgear it. This leads back to the system we had pre-u14 when epic raids were mostly guild/channel and if they were pugged they were screened to one extent or another.

This leads me to a question and a suggestion. Dev's was this the direction you wanted the game to take with the addition of eGH and FoT in particular? If not I'd like to make the suggestion that epic normal FoT be reverted to the pre-boom version with the drop rate items including commendations cut in half. This will lead to FoT becoming puggable again, but keep the elite from farming normal as the fastest way to get the gear that they want. Those that are casual or don't have access to guild/channel runs of FoT still get to run the raid and work on getting the gear just slower, and those that want the challenge and to farm the gear faster can do so. This seems to fit far better with the direction in game development you've gone in for the past year.

Edit* I don't think it needs to be total u17p0 on eNorm, the dragons and giants should revive at full health still rather than 25% or whatever it was before.

This is already being pugged and completed quite a bit on EH, and I've even seen LFMS for EE since the change...

[Aeron1976]

/signed
It sounds like this would make FoT possible to complete in a PUG but not to easy (like it seems everybody is complaining nowadays) for the Vets, Top guilds etc

To this:


While they're at it, they should also make epic hard more in between normal and elite for any quest to better target all audiences.

I hope this does not happen, since afaik it was never the idea that hard is in-between N and E but (as i posted a few times before) more like this: if N=difficulty 1, then H=diffculty 2 and E=difficulty 10.

So the original idea was supposedly E is for the "best" only which I'm fine with even though it now only works on EE not Heroic E.

Stop calling for changes to the base mechanics, they would have to redesign ALL quests again to make it. We have enough bugs and unfinished changes that need to be addressed before.

If H is to easy for you, run them on E but leave the mechanics alone.

[Charononus]

This is already being pugged and completed quite a bit on EH, and I've even seen LFMS for EE since the change...

Might be a server difference then, I've seen 2 pugs for it since the change. Talking to people I knew that were in each, one was a total failure and a wipe, the other while it completed they said that the total pot count for the group was 100 sp potions to complete, which arguably might be a greater failure than the wipe.

[Forzah]

I hope this does not happen, since afaik it was never the idea that hard is in-between N and E but (as i posted a few times before) more like this: if N=difficulty 1, then H=diffculty 2 and E=difficulty 10.

So the original idea was supposedly E is for the "best" only which I'm fine with even though it now only works on EE not Heroic E.

Except that no-one plays normal now, since it's almost the same as hard with less xp and worse loot. The current systems gives no incentive to run a quest on anything other than hard and elite, which is a stupid design decision.



Stop calling for changes to the base mechanics, they would have to redesign ALL quests again to make it. We have enough bugs and unfinished changes that need to be addressed before.

If H is to easy for you, run them on E but leave the mechanics alone.

It's a matter of tuning some global settings - in theory this is simple. I still don't understand why current epic hard should be easier than old epics, while in the mean time character power has doubled.

[psykopeta]

turbine has some bipolar tendences, actually is kinda "everything soloable at least til epic hard" i mean, epic normal quests are a joke, pretty sure than elite heroic quests are harder(think about IQ for example), epic hard gives more xp than epic normal and mobs have almost same hp, the only difference is the bosses' hp

and epic elite is faar easiert than the old epic, and think now its easier than pre u17 EE

don't worry about the raid, so many cries in forum will nerf it soon, just give time to time

[Aeron1976]

Except that no-one plays normal now, since it's almost the same as hard with less xp and worse loot. The current systems gives no incentive to run a quest on anything other than hard and elite, which is a stupid design decision.

Tbh your obseravtion is wrong imo, I nearly never play on normal, you i guess, never play normal, BUT many newer ppl "need" normal still to get the way things work.

I can craft everything I need for my toons from lvl 1-20 and have quite a few stocked items i can equip on freshly made toons, also a few Million pp and scales and other tradeables .

But not everyone who starts this game now, not like 3(me) or 6(you) years ago, has these resources available.

And since it kind of became easier to get to lvl 20 (Tomes/Stones etc) the "learning" part comes now later in a toons life.

If you want a small idea how it is, create a lvl 1 toon on another server with no extra equipment whatsoever, you will probably see there is a need for norm, even thuogh your game skills may still make ite easier for you.

[Forzah]

Tbh your obseravtion is wrong imo, I nearly never play on normal, you i guess, never play normal, BUT many newer ppl "need" normal still to get the way things work.

I can craft everything I need for my toons from lvl 1-20 and have quite a few stocked items i can equip on freshly made toons, also a few Million pp and scales and other tradeables .

But not everyone who starts this game now, not like 3(me) or 6(you) years ago, has these resources available.

And since it kind of became easier to get to lvl 20 (Tomes/Stones etc) the "learning" part comes now later in a toons life.

If you want a small idea how it is, create a lvl 1 toon on another server with no extra equipment whatsoever, you will probably see there is a need for norm, even thuogh your game skills may still make ite easier for you.

Focussing on epic quests here. Epic normal remains the same in my proposal; only epic hard becomes harder. Doesn't change a lot for those who want to run normal, while epic hard means a nice step up to get ready for epic elite. That's something that should've been done a long time ago already tho, now people are way too used to their easy button.

[Aeron1976]

While you are probably right with the observation that some (especially lvl 18-19) are way harder than most EH quests.

It is weird but supposedly WAI.



and epic elite is faar easiert than the old epic, and think now its easier than pre u17 EE


this though is wrong, i ran quite a lot quests on epic before the difficulty settings were introduced but new EE is harder than former epics. Maybe not for caster DCs but the damage you take if they hit you has increased quite alot.
The old epics would probably be in-between the new EH and EE settings considering their difficulty.

[SirValentine]

and epic elite is faar easiert than the old epic


Is it? I hadn't noticed that.

Maybe EE is easier for a level 25 character with EDs & twists than old Epic was for a level 20 with no EDs, but is EE actually easier in an absolute sense? Does a level 20 with no EDs actually have an easier time in EE than they did in old Epic?

It seems like mobs hit for much more, and have much higher saves.

[-Zephyr-]

It's still easy if people know what to expect.
Hint : guide (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=412574).

Spread the knowledge, and it'll be pugged as much as before soon enough.

[Forzah]

Is it? I hadn't noticed that.

Maybe EE is easier for a level 25 character with EDs & twists than old Epic was for a level 20 with no EDs, but is EE actually easier in an absolute sense? Does a level 20 with no EDs actually have an easier time in EE than they did in old Epic?


What's your point? Why would anyone care about absolute sense when relative sense only matters in the world we live in? I'd say EE is similar to old epics in relative difficulty, maybe a bit easier. Do you think that EE content should be balanced around level 20's without EDs or something?

I think you're just trying to be smart...but you achieve exactly the opposite.

[bigolbear]

personaly id rather what you suggest be 'casual' - and i see nothign wrong with adding casual mode for raids.

Dont forget EH has the death timer - that puts off the 'not quite casual but definately not hardcore' group that I think most of the playter base consists of.

I do totaly agree with your overall assessment tho.

id say.

casual - no Boom, no undead dragons, revive at half health, low CR for trash. - 25% chance com - normal chance gear.
norm - Boom (but no debuff or chain), undead dragons, revive at full health - guarenteed 1 com.
hard - boom + debuff (but no chain), undead dragons, death timer, revive at full - guarenteed 1 com, 50% chance for 2, better gear.
elite - boom + debuff + chain, undead dragons, death timer - replaced with penalty box, revive at full(with a buff), higher CR for trash. - guarenteed 3 coms, beter gear.


re old epics...

the old epics were not remotely dificult in general, they were just resource hogging hold and slug fests. im glad they are gone.

[SirValentine]

What's your point? Why would anyone care about absolute sense when relative sense only matters in the world we live in?


Since my point has escaped you: if you're comparing an old Epic to it's EE counterpart, you're talking about lower-level quests. The fact that higher-level characters can over-power lower-level content doesn't make the content easier, it just means characters are more powerful.



I'd say EE is similar to old epics in relative difficulty, maybe a bit easier.


I haven't seen any reason to actually believe EE is easier than old Epic, and plenty of reasons to view it as more difficult.



Do you think that EE content should be balanced around level 20's without EDs or something?


I think lower-level content should not be re-balanced around higher-level characters when level cap goes up or new powers are introduced. Doing so just screws over lower-level characters who want to do that content at level.



I think you're just trying to be smart...but you achieve exactly the opposite.


What are you trying to achieve by stooping to irrelevant personal insults instead of presenting facts to back up your claims?

[Justicesar]

I miss running the unorganized messy EH pug with a healer that starts a group and states "Preferes not to lead."..... and usually completes no matter the Chaos.

There used to be alot of groups up for this on Ghalanda EST evening but that number has tanked. Unless everone has their lootz and comendations it seems most likely due to the change. Most groups posted are loaded with top shelf players.....with just a few spots open.

I'm leveling a TR atm but glance at lfm's all the time to see if there is anything going on with FOT....maybe I'm missing the lfms, but I hope to get a chance tonight to get into at least one or two. Norm, Hard....EE doesn't matter...it's a fun raid.

[My2Cents]

I never see any LFMs for FoT, and none for CITW.

My experience with guilds is there's no flexibility for schedule and multiple groips.

I don't think I'll have the pleasure of any of these raids anytime soon and it saddens me because its part of the game I'd like to see more of.

Please keep EH the same. It became accessible, making it harder will be a step back to the previous direction, where I considered moving on from DDO since anything but Normal content was out of reach.

[Ape_Man]

Grow a pair people, this is FAR easier on hard than LOB was on Normal when that first came out.

Look, I think the changes are stupid as well but it's not that hard.

[THOTHdha]

FoT BOOM addition seems to take part of that back. While boom can be mitigated it takes a very coordinated group to do so. This means that PUGs will likely not be able to complete FoT for a significant amount of time, perhaps till the next expansion when they can be over leveled and outgear it.

There is really nothing at all about the change that makes it unPUGable. VoD was said to be 'unPUGable' when it came out due to the Shadows. And a month later the LFM had groups running it with a Shadow Kiter, or as strategies developed further a Shadow Tank. The same with LoB. The only thing that really needs to change is people's perception that Epic Hard raids should be a loot dispenser, rather than something that you actually have to try at.

[Forzah]

Since my point has escaped you: if you're comparing an old Epic to it's EE counterpart, you're talking about lower-level quests. The fact that higher-level characters can over-power lower-level content doesn't make the content easier, it just means characters are more powerful.

Don't see the relevance to the thread. Relative challenge is what counts. Especially EH fails to deliver challenge.



I haven't seen any reason to actually believe EE is easier than old Epic, and plenty of reasons to view it as more difficult.

If you play with the right players, you will destroy mobs on EE (including all new quests) like they aren't even standing there. Just watch some of the videos Haek made in his Juggernaut thread. It's extremely easy to dodge incoming damage in almost any content, and together with a shiradi caster almost everything is CC'ed.



I think lower-level content should not be re-balanced around higher-level characters when level cap goes up or new powers are introduced. Doing so just screws over lower-level characters who want to do that content at level.

Epic normal stays the same, but by making hard and elite harder, a larger portion of players can be served with challenging content. Else endgame becomes boring very quickly....





What are you trying to achieve by stooping to irrelevant personal insults instead of presenting facts to back up your claims?

Not much... just trying to point out that asking a question which can only be answered with "yes" is not really interesting. We all understand that absolute difficulty has increased. I had the idea that you tried to "be smart" by making it look like Psykopeta doesn't understand that absolute difficulty has increased.

[DeafeningWhisper]

It's a matter of tuning some global settings - in theory this is simple.

insert: "Hi, you must be new here :)" pic

[DeafeningWhisper]

Grow a pair people, this is FAR easier on hard than LOB was on Normal when that first came out.

Look, I think the changes are stupid as well but it's not that hard.

Wouldn't the fact it's a stupid change be enough reason to want it gone?

[Justicesar]

There is really nothing at all about the change that makes it unPUGable. VoD was said to be 'unPUGable' when it came out due to the Shadows. And a month later the LFM had groups running it with a Shadow Kiter, or as strategies developed further a Shadow Tank. The same with LoB. The only thing that really needs to change is people's perception that Epic Hard raids should be a loot dispenser, rather than something that you actually have to try at.

Correct....I too believe FOT is pugable with some communication and assigned positions. Unfortunatley getting into these groups is a hard at the moment while tight guilds/channels work thru best way to auto complete.

I'd run some myself but leading a group in a raid has never been one of my strong points. Eventually groups will open up as always....just have to wait it out.

[gradeyshane]

Not a fan of it honestly, I duno what pugs you are getting in but i've seen a significant % of those pug groups I've joined fail UTTERLY on FOT this week.

Not saying impossible...but sure not in any way a "sure thing" even on normal if you are trying to pug it.

Its whatever though....im burned out on b'ing about this update and its creation of a vacuum.

[ironmaiden-br]

I agree with rebalancing quest difficulties

IMO today we missing the casual for epics :)

Today epics

normal = casual (0-10 difficulty 1)
hard= normal (0-10 difficulty 2)
elite= elite (0-10 difficulty 10)

How it could be

casual (0-10 difficulty 1) as normal today
normal (0-10 difficulty 3) a litle bit harder than today
hard (0-10 difficulty 7) easier than elite today but more difficult than current epic hard
elite= elite (0-10 difficulty 10)

[Raithe]

Today epics

normal = casual (0-10 difficulty 1)
hard= normal (0-10 difficulty 2)
elite= elite (0-10 difficulty 10)



No. Not even close. I recently ran some Eveningstar quests on Epic Elite and it really didn't seem any different than EH Gianthold. There is a phenomenon that occurs and it's the reason why D&D has CR ratings. When you are underlevel for a quest, things seem really "difficult" but its actually more "your chances of success at any activity are so low that the odds are stacked too high against you." It's not difficulty, its incongruity.

When you run a quest overlevel, the opposite is true and nothing you do is likely to cause failure. The issue is that there are 6 people in a typical DDO group, and some of them might be overlevel and some of them might be underlevel. The overlevel people can tip the scales for the underlevel ones.

People who think like the post I quoted are probably underlevel, even for epic hard. You wouldn't be putting the scale like that if you weren't. The scale is more like:

Normal - 1
Hard - 1.1
Elite - 1.3

Difficulty is about mob AI, mob tactics, quantities of mobs, and mob speed. None of those things really change between the difficulties, except EE doesn't pull any punches as far as spell usage and dungeon scaling go.

The proper way to control difficulty in DDO is through group size. Typically a group of 3 provides the highest difficulty setting, and it's usually most appropriate to be using epic hard as a baseline calibration. Epic normal dungeon scaling makes things more difficult to get right.

But as far as Fall of Truth goes, there were several PUGs last night and some more this morning. I'm not seeing an issue. Just some initial stage fright, I guess.

[Justicesar]

Whatever else this thread may be... this post made my day.
+1 sir, very much indeed.

Made me laugh as well.....didn't make my day quite like this hot pocket I'm snarfing down....But ya made me laugh cause we all know the good ol boys winning this game have it all together and shouldn't be considered tards.

[SirValentine]

Don't see the relevance to the thread. Relative challenge is what counts. Especially EH fails to deliver challenge.


Didn't say anything about Hard at all, but if you want to discuss "relative" difficulties, then, sure:

"The Snitch on Epic Hard is about as much of a challenge to level 25s as The Snitch on Heroic Hard is to level 10s." True or false?

I could skip all the way to the absurd:
"Heroic Hard The Snitch isn't hard enough because it provides no challenge at all to level 25 characters!"

I honestly do feel that quest level actually is relevant to difficulty, and that the "relative" difficult of maxxed-out characters is irrelevant to lower-level quests.

Some folks might be permanent-end-game players who doesn't care about the 90% of the game that's not level-capped-relevant. They might have different priorities.



We all understand that absolute difficulty has increased. I had the idea that you tried to "be smart" by making it look like Psykopeta doesn't understand that absolute difficulty has increased.


That's how I understand it, and you say you understand it too, sure. But this claim was made:



epic elite is faar easiert than the old epic


It's not a matter of me trying to "be smart". It's a matter of me disagreeing with a statement I think is false. It's certainly not clear to me from that statement that the person thinks difficulty has increased.

[thesnoman]

First and foremost
/not signed

FoT was a cakewalk in it's initial bugged release. It was never intended to be that easy -- there was a reason people were burning through raid bypass timers to get all the EH/EE raid loot and commendations - it was TOO EASY!

FoT is a LEVEL 24 Epic Raid on EN - and it should reflect the level it is intended to be.

BOOM is easy enough to mitigate on EN and EH - only on EE does it become a real pain.

Here's my story:

Pugged FoT today. Had a bunch of people that hadn't run it ever or since the update - a few of us had. (maybe half) I was on my Shiradi Sorc.

Went in on EH

Inside someone asked who had Elec Absorb and resist.

Being Shiradi I had the 15% clickie, was able to cast resist on myself, and I had twisted energy sheath (electric) from DI. I had no other Absorb/resist items on. **EDIT: I also had my PLIS, which is important**

I was voted to be the Stormreaver Kiter/Tanker since I had thought a bit about gear before entering (Yep - a Shiradi Sorc tanked/kited the Stormreaver)

Finished through the crystal with no real problems - 1 draggy and 1 giant had to be killed twice, but that was overzealous melee toons and lack of communication.

When crystal went down, I latched onto the Stormreaver and pulled him into a corner. I Kept displace up - my reflex is 42 - and made sure my energy sheath and resists were kept up - and kept his aggro pretty well. BOOMs weren't as bad as I tought they would be until the 6th or 7th one. I ended up dying twice - some dragon kiters got hit with the BOOM and infected the group, which caused the raid to take longer than it could have, but we did end up finishing it.

This is what I'd expect from an EPIC HARD (L25) RAID. Some death, some destruction, and a completion in about 45 minutes. All it takes is a bit of coordination and communication. (And understanding that BOOM damage spreads through the group if it goes off when you're near others)

Just because some people can't pull this raid off (because they haven't run it enough yet and maybe don't have the gear yet or thought about how to mitigate the BOOM damage) doesn't mean it's too hard.

If a pug with a half the group having not run it since the patch or ever at all was able to complete, it's not too hard.

[THOTHdha]

Difficulty is about mob AI, mob tactics, quantities of mobs, and mob speed. None of those things really change between the difficulties, except EE doesn't pull any punches as far as spell usage and dungeon scaling go.
To steal a line from you:

No. Not even close.

What you say here makes absolutely no sense. DDO is not DnD. It does not scale that way. Progressing from Hard to Elite in the new batch of Epic quest does not change on ~any~ of the scales that you mentioned. What does change is a massive inflation of values. Spell Power, Attack damage, HP, these types of things.

TL;DR version - Turbine does not hand craft adventures any more. They just crank up the scalable values. The only change in difficulty is the change in the amount of damage you can mitigate, the damage you can deal, and how long your SP bars can hold out for.

[THOTHdha]

I miss running the unorganized messy EH pug with a healer that starts a group and states "Preferes not to lead."..... and usually completes no matter the Chaos.

FoT was a cakewalk in it's initial bugged release. It was never intended to be that easy -- there was a reason people were burning through raid bypass timers to get all the EH/EE raid loot and commendations - it was TOO EASY!

These two snippets seem to really sum up the entire debate. Some people want to walk into the highest level raid in the game and mash their face against the keyboard until they somehow end up able to loot the chest at the end. Other people want to actually have something that challenges them and their characters.

For me, I do not not see any reason to play a game that does not challenge me in some way. If I just wanted to spend time with friends, I could do so on g+ or any number of social media outlets. I play MMOs with people in order to give us a common goal. And what is the purpose if that 'goal' is something that we can overcome without even actually trying?

[Shade]

Agreed mostly. Though the devs NEVER do the "revert cuz it's bad" approach, so pointless to ask.

Tho they may tweak it.

The major issue with it, is it doesn't seem to scale much, if at all. Seen 2000+ hits on normal, and not much higher on EH.

Simple tweak would be to scale down the dmg, or perhaps limit the max debuff stacks to 3/4/5 for EN/H/E.

Better fix would be to have the mechanic make sense. it gives a countdown thats utterly pointless. Have it have purpose: 10 seconds, and you can run to the center to remove it, and be immune to another for the next 20 seconds.

And scale the countdown duration to difficulty. 10/6/4 seconds for EN/EH/EE.

Your average pug players that enjoy EN simply cant acknoledge, react, and respond to something like that in 3 seconds, so tossing a 3 second countdown (that really means nothing currently) in there face is just going to drive them away.

[Viisari]

FoT BOOM addition seems to take part of that back. While boom can be mitigated it takes a very coordinated group to do so. This means that PUGs will likely not be able to complete FoT for a significant amount of time, perhaps till the next expansion when they can be over leveled and outgear it.

Wrong. Reaver is currently somewhat like the shadows were in ToD part 2. You need someone to tank him away from the party and hopefully facing the wall, if that tank dies then you better have someone as backup or prepare to wipe. Nobody goes near that tank either because that'll cause an endless loop of boom, boom and a little bit more boom.

Uncontrolled Reaver is now the most dangerous thing in that place, plan accordingly.

ToD was very commonly pugged, I see no reason why FoT couldn't be.

Seriously, you guys need to stop making threads like this when you don't even understand the mechanics of these things properly.



this though is wrong, i ran quite a lot quests on epic before the difficulty settings were introduced but new EE is harder than former epics. Maybe not for caster DCs but the damage you take if they hit you has increased quite alot.
The old epics would probably be in-between the new EH and EE settings considering their difficulty.

If we look at absolute monster stat values then EE is indeed more difficult. But things are never that simple, are they now?

When we consider that we now have access to epic destinies and better gear, they're in fact easier because our characters are capable of being vastly more powerful than before U14.

[Flavilandile]

Wrong. Reaver is currently somewhat like the shadows were in ToD part 2. You need someone to tank him away from the party and hopefully facing the wall, if that tank dies then you better have someone as backup or prepare to wipe. Nobody goes near that tank either because that'll cause an endless loop of boom, boom and a little bit more boom.

Uncontrolled Reaver is now the most dangerous thing in that place, plan accordingly.


This... oh and there's more options than just brute force tanking him, you can also use him as a ping pong ball between two rangers... As long as the rangers are at one side of the room while truthfull is at the other side... and make sure he Reaver don't look into the room.



ToD was very commonly pugged, I see no reason why FoT couldn't be.

Seriously, you guys need to stop making threads like this when you don't even understand the mechanics of these things properly.

If we look at absolute monster stat values then EE is indeed more difficult. But things are never that simple, are they now?.

I'll put him in the range of what the titan ( once unbugged ) used to be when the cap was 12... or even himself at cap 14 in Piker's Fate Elite before they started tinkering with him, But Shadows from Tor seems to be on par too.

[fuzzy1guy]

Excluding the average player masses is a great thing for ddo!

I love running the same raids with the same people every single time! Who needs new players and variety.

Why, i bet turbine sells alot of future packs to all those people who are not here...



When elder scrolls online goes online, this place is gonna get empty so hard.
Because this is ddo where even our bugs are selective elite vets! And if you don't like it.... can i have your stuff?

[RedHost]

When elder scrolls online goes online, this place is gonna get empty so hard.
Because this is ddo where even our bugs are selective elite vets! And if you don't like it.... can i have your stuff?

You mean the game that is being made by a bunch of people who design single player RPGs, and are failing to understand why their MMO went from super hyped when people only knew the name to being laughed at as soon as the beta started? The game that is bringing back World Dungeons, rather than instances, because the concept failed and died out over a decade ago, but they want to give it another go anyways? Oh, and these public world dungeons with the raid encounters are also set in an open PvP zone. I guess that some game had to come out that made the new Final Fantasy MMO look good.

Which really sucks, since I was extremely interested in a Elder Scrolls MMO from the first moment that I heard about it.