Turbine: Please sell content, not gimmicks

[CanyonMan88]

I have been a VIP customer for over 3 years, and I paid 70 something bucks for the exansion at UG14. I have no problem paying for new content. I understand Turbine is running a business, and without money coming in, there would be no DDO. However, as a paying customer, I find it frustrating, and insulting that Turbine is spending an increasing amount of programming time doing things to make money that don't make the game more fun to play. I am paying for entertainment. Selling game advantages in the DDO store is insulting to players who earned things the hard way. Remember how hard it used to be to get a +4 tome? Now noobs can buy them in the store, and totally negate the value of your 20, 40, 60 TOD grinds to get the +4 tome you needed for your main stat. Remember how hard it used to be to make completionist? Now, ppl can buy unlimited XP stones, and 50% pots, and skip half the work.

The Astral Shard exchange has to be the biggest insult of all. Now, they want us to pay real money for Astral shards, so we can buy BTC items from each other. This would be insulting enough, but they are going to take 30-40% of the profit from the seller, if someone is actually stupid enough to buy something on the exchange. I seriously doubt anyone is even going to use the exchange, but what frustrates me, is that they wasted programming time to build the thing. Use the time to design new quests. I'd be happy to pay for that.

We are the customer. We pay for the programming time. Please don't waste it on stuff nobody wants.

[Miow]

I have been a VIP customer for over 3 years, and I paid 70 something bucks for the exansion at UG14. I have no problem paying for new content. I understand Turbine is running a business, and without money coming in, there would be no DDO. However, it as a paying customer, I find it frustrating, and insulting that Turbine is spending an increasing amount of programming time doing things to make money that don't make the game more fun to play. I am paying for entertainment. Selling game advantages in the DDO store is insulting to players who earned things the hard way. Remember how hard it used to be to get a +4 tome? Now noobs can buy them in the store, and totally negate the value of your 20, 40, 60 TOD grinds to get the +4 tome you needed for your main stat. Remember how hard it used to be to make completionist? Now, ppl can buy unlimited XP stones, and 50% pots, and skip half the work.

The Astral Shard exchange has to be the biggest insult of all. Now, they want us to pay real money for Astral shards, so we can but BTC items from each other. This would be insulting enough, but they are going to take 30-40% of the profit from the seller, if someone is actually stupid enough to buy something on the exchange. I seriously doubt anyone is even going to use the exchange, but what frustrates me, is that they wasted programming time to build the thing. Use the time to design new quests. I'd be happy to pay for that.

We are the customer. We pay for the programming time. Please don't waste it on stuff nobody wants.

I agree to a certain extent with your sentiment, but to say nobody wants these types of things is simply not true. Things are changing in the ddo landscape for the better for some of us for the worst for others(me) eventually i will have had enough just not yet.

[Grosbeak07]

Turbine is introducing nothing that isn't already present in other games.

Turbine can do anything it wants to be gimmicky and long as it never becomes required to play the core game. They do have to make money, and people pay for this stuff, all the time.

I do wish they would communicate their changes for the game better, I think if they explained what they want to do with some of the stuff, it would help the player base understand better and seem less gimmicky.

[WangChi]

In my opinion, if the DDO Store simply sold a "Gem of Unbinding" that removed the bound status of items so they could be freely traded, that would have solved this issue entirely. No "extra currency" that's twice removed from actual dollars, no potential devaluing of the existing platinum currency, it would allow players to openly trade for ingredients or other items if desired.

This would easily bring in on-going profits in much the same way as the silly shard exchange, without the intrusion into the game experience. People could still use the same AH for everything, or the /trade channels or whatever other methods the player base has already established and Turbine could just bring in the dollars in the background.

If we already have TP which we pay money for, it makes no sense (other than Turbine raking more $$ from the populace) to have to transfer the TP into shards (at whatever rate Turbine decides it needs for that months bottom line) in order to do anything useful with them.

[ReaperAlexEU]

I have been a VIP customer for over 3 years, and I paid 70 something bucks for the exansion at UG14. I have no problem paying for new content. I understand Turbine is running a business, and without money coming in, there would be no DDO. However, as a paying customer, I find it frustrating, and insulting that Turbine is spending an increasing amount of programming time doing things to make money that don't make the game more fun to play. I am paying for entertainment. Selling game advantages in the DDO store is insulting to players who earned things the hard way. Remember how hard it used to be to get a +4 tome? Now noobs can buy them in the store, and totally negate the value of your 20, 40, 60 TOD grinds to get the +4 tome you needed for your main stat. Remember how hard it used to be to make completionist? Now, ppl can buy unlimited XP stones, and 50% pots, and skip half the work.

The Astral Shard exchange has to be the biggest insult of all. Now, they want us to pay real money for Astral shards, so we can buy BTC items from each other. This would be insulting enough, but they are going to take 30-40% of the profit from the seller, if someone is actually stupid enough to buy something on the exchange. I seriously doubt anyone is even going to use the exchange, but what frustrates me, is that they wasted programming time to build the thing. Use the time to design new quests. I'd be happy to pay for that.

We are the customer. We pay for the programming time. Please don't waste it on stuff nobody wants.

While I sympathise with your point of view, I think it's important that you realise the skills needed to make new quests are very different from the skills needed to make a new game feature.

As a programmer for over 10 years I know I have the skills to make new features, but I have absolutely no talent in quest design.

So technically you're either asking the programmers to do something they probably have no skills for, or you're asking turbine to fire programmers and hire more level designers.

It would be more reasonable to ask for more programming resources to go towards bug fixing and quality of life improvements. Just bear in mind that to focus every programmer on bug fix's would also be a mistake, an MMO needs to be constantly evolving to keep going.

It would be nice to see a team devoted to quality of life issues though. Those niggling things the game has had for years, some may be trivial bugs and others just poor interface design. Though to be fair on turbine it's clear they already have such a team, which have been busy replacing all the old reward interfaces with the new barter system. There is also an existing bug fixing team.

Neither team gets shouted about much so we often forget they even exist.

[Arnhelm]

OP - Agreed. +1

[dejafu]

We are the customer. We pay for the programming time. Please don't waste it on stuff nobody wants.

If nobody wants it, then it won't be an issue, will it?

Oh, but the issue is that some people WILL use it and be quite satisfied customers with it. This is something YOU don't want, and other vocal forumites don't want. But there's no way this would be happening if there wasn't a potentially BIG market for it.

You just won't see said people saying upfront, "Heck yeah, I'm gonna get me some of that!" on the forum.

You know what I plan on doing with the ASAH? I'm going to post items on there that I've bound to a character but no longer have use for (like when I upgrade from an epic hard to an epic elite item), save up those astral shards, then use them to buy something spiffy when I've got enough shards to do so. Sure, those shards I have got started out of somebody else's wallet, but that's their business, not mine. If anything, I look at this as a chance to finally get some astral shards without having to spend any real world money.

And sure, I won't be able to compete in bidding wars against somebody who's willing to drop real money to get what I'm looking for.

****... guess I'll just have to go run the quests instead.

[TrinityTurtle]

I think you don't understand the customer base. You say we are the customer who pays for the programming time, but on only the second day of an acution house that reguires an ante of the astral shards to even post anything, there were 59 pages of acutions on my server already. That is a LOT of people wanting to use this thing. I admit, I was completely floored by how many people are using it, that fee struck me as wrong. Controlling an unlimited coin problem in an economy that only does one thing but grow every time someone runs a quest is one thing, and the coin drain is helpful over all. But something that people are spending thier actual cash on getting drained seems wrong to me. But apparently not to a lot of others. Whether it's for storage or actual selling/buying, this thing is far more popular in game than the forums would led one to understand at all.

And as for being insulted, that's ego. If that newb buys the +4 tome, it does not magically erase your tome from your character, or the awesome journey you took to get it, or the benefit it gives to your character. It doesn't negate your bragging rights about what you had to do to get it. It doesn't do anything to you but give you the same choice, farm out the other one you need or buy it that everyone else has. You can still have the same fun and sense of pride farming it out if you want to. You can form a group of freinds or guild that feel the same and stick to the same philosophy of how they get things, and not worry about how others get thiers. The stones of experience again are a personal choice. You can choose to be insulted by it, or you can choose to be happy others are playing the game in a manner that makes them happy, helping to keep the lights on, and being there to join your groups.

[Paleus]

As the game level progresses things that took a long time to acquire in the past are going to be easier to acquire in the present. So I do not think that people should be required to run 60 ToD runs for a +4 stat tome. Certain aspects of the game are/should be made easier. But, where we agree is that the mechanism for making them easier should not be gimmicky, buy it from the DDO store.

For instance, with increases to levels and the overlap in heroic and epic quest repeat penalties we see the XP system becoming a bit more onerous for TRs, especially since its no longer as significant an 'end-game' activity to keep gamers occupied. Now, one solution is to re-evaluate in-game mechanics like XP demands for a TR life or separating repeat penalties or introducing an XP ransack mechanism. Or, on the other hand you could just introduce a 50% XP elixir that you can buy or sell XP stones. You could of course do both, or just really prioritize one.

[Memnir]

So don't buy Shards and don't use the ASAH. I'm not, and don't feel any worse off for doing so. I will use the Gold rolls only if I get Shards from the Silver roll, as I did on my first one - or if I loot and consequently break down any Astral Diamonds I happen to upon. Since I've only found four ADs since their inception... I really don't think this will happen too often.

They also didn't "sell" this. They put it out as part of a patch... not as part of an Update or Expansion. It was included for free. And folks can also ignore it for free.


I'd also like to point out that I really don't think "nobody" wants things like XP potions and Tomes. Obviously, people do. That's why they keep increasing the availability of this stuff in the Store. It makes money - and enough of it to make it worthwhile. I haven't got the spare money to buy tomes from the Store, but I can't begrudge those who do. The "advantage" they offer is slight - even the +4 variety. The XP potions are a great benefit to TRs, however, and I have no problem with them.

The ASAH is a fool's market. After looking it over and having a good hearty laugh, I just went on with my day. It's a silly venture that only exists to part fools from their money. And more power to any fool who thinks they will get ahead by doing so. They want to waste their money on that kind of thing, they either have a lot more then I do or a lot less impulse control. Either way - I'm cool with it because I don't have to use it.

Lastly, the profits from the Store are likely helping to fund the quest-development side of things. 'Nuff said.


If you don't like the Store - don't use it. If you don't like the ASAH - don't use it. They are relatively easy to ignore, and I am guilt-free doing so in regards to all the Shard nonsense. I also really don't care if the next guy has maxed out his card on tomes and potions and Shards. If that's how they want to play, fine by me. I still do just as well as they do - and for a lot less coinage spent. I don't give a **** how other folks want to spend or not spend their money, and all I ask is the same consideration in return.


The Store is a fact of life - as is Turbine's desire to keep making money from it. It's not going away, and has helped the game as much as any perceived hurt.

[Forzah]

**** profits.

That is all.

[Kalari]

I have never been against adding fluff features to the game, but It does burn me that several things we have asked for quite often in the suggestion forums and that I have witnessed in game asked for that could potentially make more money or get more players interested is ignored.

I am in no way saying it is easy to implement every idea nor is it feasible, but instead of a shard action house how about a better crafting system, more options for those who will spend on better healing so that they do not need to have healbots following them?

Why do epic level rogues still have to rely on consumable thieves tools instead of giving them the option to create a master one?

Familiars anyone? Wizard hats, better cosmetic choices? Keeps and player housing to fill up all those empty looking buildings in the House wards?

Heck even though im not a pvp fan if they implemented a separate way for people to voluntarily enjoy such areas I wouldn't balk.

Many many other ideas that simply languish in that section of the forums that people have said put this in and I will make it rain for you Turbine.

Instead we have the Shard auction house and ways to trade stuff we may have accidentally equipped or do not need whoop de freaking doo :(

[Vellrad]

I would like to spend money on DDO.
But they would have to release things worth my money first.

Adventure pack once in 1-2 months would be ideal.

[Ape_Man]

Gimmicks are optional.

I don't like them, I don't participate in these reideer games. i feel bad for a few suckers who've recently spent more in DDO point that I did building a computer (I'm not kidding) but they are adults and are free to make their own poor choices.

Gimmicks fund content.

If having a few dumb gimmicks keeps a game I love afloat for a few more months/years you have to take the good with the bad.

[LightInDark]

While it appears no one is using this, at least people on the forums are saying they arent, I have been selling stuff on it easily enough.

The number of rare items being posted is quite large about what I expected if people were like me and held rare items but could never bring themseleves to use them. Once the ASAH came in I though well why not get rid of them and finally buy a guild ship.

Oh and rumour has it someone has 70k shards from ASAH selling (according to the ASAH Minngame thread)

Sad to say but use says there is a demand for it.

[Siftrant]

And as for being insulted, that's ego. If that newb buys the +4 tome, it does not magically erase your tome from your character, or the awesome journey you took to get it, or the benefit it gives to your character. It doesn't negate your bragging rights about what you had to do to get it. It doesn't do anything to you but give you the same choice, farm out the other one you need or buy it that everyone else has. You can still have the same fun and sense of pride farming it out if you want to. You can form a group of freinds or guild that feel the same and stick to the same philosophy of how they get things, and not worry about how others get thiers. The stones of experience again are a personal choice. You can choose to be insulted by it, or you can choose to be happy others are playing the game in a manner that makes them happy, helping to keep the lights on, and being there to join your groups.

^^^ This.

If you realize that there is only one true currency, you will realize that they "paid" with the same thing you did by a different pathway. You paid in time without passing it through a barter system. They paid with time but passed it through the barter system: time -> dollars/euros/whatev -> TP. I am sorry that your e-peen waving is impeded because someone else spent their time getting paid to do something other than grind away the hours on a game.

[Missing_Minds]

Wish Granted! Coming this summer, the second expansion for DDO for all people willing to pay for it, ViP or F2P alike!

Darnit... wrong thread again.

[maddmatt70]

Not too concerned because if Turbine does not make content then people will stop playing the game and logging in and this additional revenue will also dry up because there will be nobody logging into DDO and investing money into it.

[st0rmcr0vv]

I have been a VIP customer for over 3 years, and I paid 70 something bucks for the exansion at UG14. I have no problem paying for new content. I understand Turbine is running a business, and without money coming in, there would be no DDO. However, as a paying customer, I find it frustrating, and insulting that Turbine is spending an increasing amount of programming time doing things to make money that don't make the game more fun to play. I am paying for entertainment. Selling game advantages in the DDO store is insulting to players who earned things the hard way. Remember how hard it used to be to get a +4 tome? Now noobs can buy them in the store, and totally negate the value of your 20, 40, 60 TOD grinds to get the +4 tome you needed for your main stat. Remember how hard it used to be to make completionist? Now, ppl can buy unlimited XP stones, and 50% pots, and skip half the work.

The Astral Shard exchange has to be the biggest insult of all. Now, they want us to pay real money for Astral shards, so we can buy BTC items from each other. This would be insulting enough, but they are going to take 30-40% of the profit from the seller, if someone is actually stupid enough to buy something on the exchange. I seriously doubt anyone is even going to use the exchange, but what frustrates me, is that they wasted programming time to build the thing. Use the time to design new quests. I'd be happy to pay for that.

We are the customer. We pay for the programming time. Please don't waste it on stuff nobody wants.


While I understand your frustration with the gimick-i-ness of the DDice, I can program a die roll lottery game in less than an hour. Tying in with loot tables and requiring "tokens", haven't tried it but I'm willing to bet dimes to shards that they spent way more time testing this and probably more time skinning the UI than they did coding it. If it took them more than two 8 hour days I'll eat a kobold. :D... EDIT: Oh... The shard exchange was the gimmick you were complaining about? They already had an auction house!

[psteen1]

I have never been against adding fluff features to the game, but It does burn me that several things we have asked for quite often in the suggestion forums and that I have witnessed in game asked for that could potentially make more money or get more players interested is ignored.

I am in no way saying it is easy to implement every idea nor is it feasible, but instead of a shard action house how about a better crafting system, more options for those who will spend on better healing so that they do not need to have healbots following them?

Why do epic level rogues still have to rely on consumable thieves tools instead of giving them the option to create a master one?

Familiars anyone? Wizard hats, better cosmetic choices? Keeps and player housing to fill up all those empty looking buildings in the House wards?

Heck even though im not a pvp fan if they implemented a separate way for people to voluntarily enjoy such areas I wouldn't balk.

Many many other ideas that simply languish in that section of the forums that people have said put this in and I will make it rain for you Turbine.

Instead we have the Shard auction house and ways to trade stuff we may have accidentally equipped or do not need whoop de freaking doo :(

Yes! Give me a cosmetic system that rivals the one in Lord of the Rings Online and I will spend real $$$ on this game. Cosmetics may be a gimmick but that one is fun to me.

[Vellrad]

Yes! Give me a cosmetic system that rivals the one in Lord of the Rings Online and I will spend real $$$ on this game. Cosmetics may be a gimmick but that one is fun to me.

/signed

[dejafu]

Yes! Give me a cosmetic system that rivals the one in Lord of the Rings Online and I will spend real $$$ on this game. Cosmetics may be a gimmick but that one is fun to me.

Quatermaster has (twice) alluded to some sort of upcoming change to the way that the cosmetic armor system currently works. No additional details beyond that, but food for thought.

[Brendae]

Th ASAH exists for one reason : To give Warner Brothers a guaranteed, steady stream of passive, player generated income. I'm not a fan of the idea but they are running a business and they need to turn a profit.

I'd much rather pay for content myself so I don't plan on buying Shards.

I've actually had an idea for Turbine. They should start emphasizing content and story over level grind. Start a number of episodic storylines. Each instalment could be as little as a single medium length dungeon. The type of thing that can be written in advance and three or four level designers and artists (Using mostly existing assets) could knock out in two weeks. They could have three or four story lines going at the same time at different level ranges,charge 100 TP per episode and release every three weeks. I'd love to have new content and a great storyline in that time frame and I'm sure a lot of players would like a fun distraction from the grind.

[walkin_dude]

Using the shard-based auction house is entirely optional, of course, and my plans haven't really included it. However, I am noticing a definite trend concerning the quality of the items still being posted up in the regular AH. The stuff people are going to actually want is going to be in the other one. I guess the regular AH will be a lot less useful going forward. Pity . . . :(

[Drona]

Now noobs can buy them in the store, and totally negate the value of your 20, 40, 60 TOD grinds to get the +4 tome you needed for your main stat.

<speechless>

[goodspeed]

Turbine, sell me my epic shards. Shut up and take my money!

[Rasolam]

/Agree 100% wasted programmig time on something i feel was a waste of time astral shards.

Being a former LOTR player i find it frustrating that something a small as your cloak not showing on your charc is just annoying.

I know LOTR has a much wider fan base and more players (i think) but DDO has the best charc customization and the quests are so thrilling and gripping i left the former and have been a DDO player for 2 years now.

After my liitle rant just a suggestion. This is my own opinion so feel free to slate me lol.

Why not condense the servers mabye scrap two of them combine them with others so more players on LFM less maintence and mabye the money they save from them two servers they could invest in somne better hardware to stop this god awfull lag.

Rant over have a nice day gentlemen. (and ladies)

[lhidda]

OP - Agreed. +1

This. OP +1

If I wanted to buy everything desirable instead of investing time to achieve it I could have remained in real life. And those achievements mean nothing to me if one can simply buy them (in more obvious ways like tomes or less obvious ways like xp boni).

Imho in few years the f2p/p2w-model will be considered dead and buried. Maybe it is not what we will see, but it is what I wish.

[goodspeed]

/Agree 100% wasted programmig time on something i feel was a waste of time astral shards.

Being a former LOTR player i find it frustrating that something a small as your cloak not showing on your charc is just annoying.

I know LOTR has a much wider fan base and more players (i think) but DDO has the best charc customization and the quests are so thrilling and gripping i left the former and have been a DDO player for 2 years now.

After my liitle rant just a suggestion. This is my own opinion so feel free to slate me lol.

Why not condense the servers mabye scrap two of them combine them with others so more players on LFM less maintenance and maybe the money they save from them two servers they could invest in somne better hardware to stop this god awfull lag.

Rant over have a nice day gentlemen. (and ladies)

Mainly because no one wants the ugly people. Right this moment thiers a guy with a barrel of petro (gas) and a wooden matchstick just sittn at the bridge that connects khyber to wayfinder waiting.

[AtomicMew]

Most games have at most two different currencies: one for wealth found in game and another for store bought items.

DDO has like half a dozen currencies, some of which are becoming increasingly worthless. The solution is extremely simple: start building your game like an actual economy rather than a vaunted souvenir shop. That means to allow players to exchange forms of currency freely. People are already trading in game wealth for turbine points and it's time to make it official and take control over this process instead of forcing players to do this in shady back alleys out of sight.

1) An efficient economy generates wealth, which means more money for Turbine in the long run.
2) It's fine to take a small cut, but 30-40% is NOT ACCEPTABLE. This is just extremely insulting.

[Kawai]

...Why do epic level rogues still have to rely on consumable thieves tools instead of giving them the option to create a master one?

Familiars anyone? Wizard hats, better cosmetic choices? Keeps and player housing to fill up all those empty looking buildings in the House wards?

Heck even though im not a pvp fan if they implemented a separate way for people to voluntarily enjoy such areas I wouldn't balk...

well said +1

so many comparatively ez things they could do get sooo totally ignored.

Would love to see a Wizard in a pointy hat :rolleyes:

and yes, i can't imagine an EPIC Rogue, who has to resort to little (toothpick?) consumeable picks. arent those things like... totally made of iron or something anyway? (any fanboyz out there know the answer to that?)

...and i'd personally like a nice oldfash paper-bag for me HalfElves head. :(
(i wonder if they have fired that guy yet?)

[Jumba]

Turbine are making money off DDO, otherwise they would of shut it down, what is more likely the case, is the boss's at Turbine or WB are going we want more money with little or no investment, and we are the ones they want the money off.

We quite often blame the Devs for these releases, but they will only be doing what they are told to do. Bad untested coding though is thier fault, but if they are raising it as any good engineer/ dev should be, then it will sit with thier bosses.

Subscriptions are a steady regular income. store purchases are one of payments that to a degree they can forecast from past purchase history, just an example. 20% extra xp, people go oooh I will TR, some people will buy from the store others using epic tokens.

As with all games reputation is important, if you get known for not fixing bugs, releasing bad bugged untested content and always trying to fleece the players, Turbines rep will go down, and this can cause new and old players not to try or come back to the game. There are certain gaming companies we will never touch ever again due to these factors, and one day when we move on from DDO, we will probably never touch a Turbine product again.

So this is all just Turbine being greedy, I want to see the game continue and do well, but not at the expense of players being ripped off, which for what Turbine have been releasing is disgusting. Try this as I said in another post.
FIX BUGS, PROVIDE CONTENT, and ADVERTISE.

I was looking at the ASAH the other night and working out the cost in real money for some items, you can be looking at 3 months subs just for one item, and then the player selling the item gets fleeced, so Turbine can reduce the amount of astral shards in circulation so people buy more, they would of done a case study with projected figures and revenue streams pror to releasing this ASAH so its on purpose for the % they rip people off.

As for bound to character items, I think there should not be any in the game for end rewards, bound to account, ok thats fair enough, bound to character on equip, yep fine with that, but bound to character straight out is just stupid.

Yes Turbine is a company that needs to make money, but there are ethical ways of doing this by being fair in the way in which they provide a service and trade with us the customer base.

[Eme]

things that actually add depth and enhance the game are great, cosmetics,, even if they sold animated emotes would be cool,

..but these shards are just the slimiest and lowest amount of work for the highest $$ that they could currently think of and it shows.