Please explain the changes to sneak/invis post U17

[danielhrobbins]

So, is sneak/invis bugged now? I tried soloing EE Claw on my rogue as I always have, and I noticed 2 things:

1) Noisemakers now don't work half the time, especially if you are on any kind of incline or there is any kind of difference in level between the noisemaker and the target(s); I went so far as to put one right in front of a scorp, but being on a small incline somehow made the scorp not react at all.

2) Since noisemakers are borked, how am I supposed to sneak over the very last platform where the last guardian is? Noisemakers used to work, or you could be invis and draw the scorp over to you without him "noticing" you ... am I just SOL?

So, what exactly has been changed? ... I saw in the release notes where it said mobs are more easily aggroed, but nowhere does it say "we have changed the entire mechanic behind a certain classes valuable skill" ... ugh.

Please, un-"fix" this.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Well, I am wondering if the patch today fixed Invis...

I am going to log on right now and try a quick test.

[Missing_Minds]

Op, the issue I recall is that invisablity doesn't work. And I suspect shadow walking as well. They will see you instantly.

As far as actual sneaking, I do not know. The same for noise makers. It is possible that maybe noise makers could have been fixed in today's update. I don't know if the issue was in mob agro mechanics or in the noise maker itself. It the issue was solely in the noise maker, then I doubt it has been fixed.

I'm waiting to see what Talon's test results are. /curious.


One thing this issue did do, however, was to show me that sleeping mobs will wake up because someone is feather falling down past them. Apparently our floating is quite noisy.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

O....K....

well this sucks.


and might deserve a thread in the appropriate place with an appropriate title.


Invis works. That's the good news.

Bad news:

Noise makers do not work... at all.

But... walking invis near something, now causes them to go into their attack the air sonar mode.. as if they are agroed on you...

No more hey.. was there a noise there?

Nope.. now it is, hey, I heard an adventurer... right there! I know it was an adventurer, and I am going to attack him! Just as soon as I can find him!

As a concellation though, they no longer tell their friends that they are tracking someone... so only the monster that heard you actually moves at all.
It also seems kinda bugged in that it takes them awhile to actually hit you and knock you out of stealth.




I find it hard to believe that this is as intended.
But then again....




At any rate... a sad day for stealth guys...
Original U17, I assumed it was a bug.
But today was suppose to fix the bug... sooo.... WAI?! :(

[Missing_Minds]

Original U17, I assumed it was a bug.
But today was suppose to fix the bug... sooo.... WAI?! :(
Fix one bug, break three others.

Yeah, this would be a thread in and of itself, and about... 3 different bug reports I fear.

Thanks for checking this out, Talon.

edit: As for auto attempt to attack upon hearing something: Would sort of make sense if a DA had happened, but you'd think the other mobs would be lookign at the "attacker" oddly. Probably going "yeah Bob! Kill that mosquito (http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/03/14/giant-mosquitoes-set-to-invade-florida-this-summer/)!"

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Actually... although I did not do a proper Invis test before today, I supect that nothing changed today at all.

But I will have to do some more testing to be sure. (well..since I did not do proper testing before change today, I guess I cannot be sure... :o )

This past weekend, I noticed that sleeping mobs would not wake up if I assassinated or damaged their friends right next to them. In some cases I could fight near a sleeping mob without waking it.

I could also fight behind a monsters back without him turning around.


What I just saw in the Vale, made me think this might still be the case. (gotta go back and test more.....but at work... and leaving soon... plus really need to do homework and not go home and log on DDO....)

The rats did not seem to hear fights near them, only agroed on what they saw.
They did respond when I walked near them.... and I think this past weekend, speeling mobs did wake up if you walked near them.


Sneaking works fine... before and after today.

I had thought that Invis was not working before today..... but I suspect now that I just misinterpreted their reaction when they hear us walk near them.
(maybe I should stop ranting and guessing and go do actual testing....lol)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Fix one bug, break three others.

Yeah, this would be a thread in and of itself, and about... 3 different bug reports I fear.

Thanks for checking this out, Talon.

edit: As for auto attempt to attack upon hearing something: Would sort of make sense if a DA had happened, but you'd think the other mobs would be lookign at the "attacker" oddly. Probably going "yeah Bob! Kill that mosquito (http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/03/14/giant-mosquitoes-set-to-invade-florida-this-summer/)!"

What I did was go into the Vale near Meridia to the goup of rats near the ramp.

I snuck by them... even pretty close to their faces.... no reaction.
I was Invisible.....so I stood up. No reaction.
I did this a couple of times.

Invis seems to work.

But then I tried noise makers.
My second noise maker was practically right behind a rat...... no reaction.


So I tried to stand up while... walk a step... jump... restealth.. and sneak away.

I have done this many times in the past....the old reaction would have been that the rat would have moved to investigate the noise, but would not have agroed on me.

I did this a couple times to make sure the rat didn't just get too close to me and auto-detect me...

Nope,....petty sure he just agroes on me simple because he heard me.
However, unlike in th epast, if he had agroed on me, he would have told his friends and they would have moved toward him to see what he was attacking.... now his friends did not move at all.

Even though the rat that heard me clearly was attacking the air and running toward me.

[Qezuzu]

Tested some things with ultra-high stealth toon. Used The Snitch on Epic Hard for testing as it features mobs with caster (Seer), archer (Knife Thrower), and melee (Strongman) type AIs in the first room.

All three mobs did not respond to noise maker or projectile collision (hitting a surface with a throwing dagger), and instantly aggroed me when I moved while invisible.

However, after they were aggroed, I left the quest and came back in. They were in their original spots, and responded to noisemakers, collisions, and did not automatically aggro me when I was invisible and moving. They did not, however, do their search animation, and instead simply walked to where the noise was made.

As an experiment, I summoned the CR1 Celestial Dog. It promptly aggroed everything, died, and afterwards the mobs responded to noisermakers, collisions, and did not aggro on me when invisible and moving. So if you want to stealth and need a mob to move, "prep" it by sending in a summon. At least until they fix mob sound detection. This does forfeit the Claw of Vulkoor optional, though.

Assassinating/breaking breakable objects also seems to be bugged, but I imagine that "prepping" the mob will also fix this.

Stealth is still working as expected. Assassinate still does not alert nearby mobs.

[danielhrobbins]

Thanks guys, +1 to both of you for your input and response. Well, at the least it is a sign not too much has changed at Turbine: they'll still stick it to the rogues and not bother getting around to fixing it (or "fixing it") ... ;)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Tested some things with ultra-high stealth toon. Used The Snitch on Epic Hard for testing as it features mobs with caster (Seer), archer (Knife Thrower), and melee (Strongman) type AIs in the first room.

All three mobs did not respond to noise maker or projectile collision (hitting a surface with a throwing dagger), and instantly aggroed me when I moved while invisible.

However, after they were aggroed, I left the quest and came back in. They were in their original spots, and responded to noisemakers, collisions, and did not automatically aggro me when I was invisible and moving. They did not, however, do their search animation, and instead simply walked to where the noise was made.

As an experiment, I summoned the CR1 Celestial Dog. It promptly aggroed everything, died, and afterwards the mobs responded to noisermakers, collisions, and did not aggro on me when invisible and moving. So if you want to stealth and need a mob to move, "prep" it by sending in a summon. At least until they fix mob sound detection. This does forfeit the Claw of Vulkoor optional, though.

Assassinating/breaking breakable objects also seems to be bugged, but I imagine that "prepping" the mob will also fix this.

Stealth is still working as expected. Assassinate still does not alert nearby mobs.

wow ...thx, that is good info.

Btw, home now... and instead of doing my homework, I am logging on to play with stealth some more.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Tested some things with ultra-high stealth toon. Used The Snitch on Epic Hard for testing as it features mobs with caster (Seer), archer (Knife Thrower), and melee (Strongman) type AIs in the first room.

All three mobs did not respond to noise maker or projectile collision (hitting a surface with a throwing dagger), and instantly aggroed me when I moved while invisible.

However, after they were aggroed, I left the quest and came back in. They were in their original spots, and responded to noisemakers, collisions, and did not automatically aggro me when I was invisible and moving. They did not, however, do their search animation, and instead simply walked to where the noise was made.

As an experiment, I summoned the CR1 Celestial Dog. It promptly aggroed everything, died, and afterwards the mobs responded to noisermakers, collisions, and did not aggro on me when invisible and moving. So if you want to stealth and need a mob to move, "prep" it by sending in a summon. At least until they fix mob sound detection. This does forfeit the Claw of Vulkoor optional, though.

Assassinating/breaking breakable objects also seems to be bugged, but I imagine that "prepping" the mob will also fix this.

Stealth is still working as expected. Assassinate still does not alert nearby mobs.

You are right, agro them first on something else, ( I used Wild Empathy) and then they respond the old way..... you can walk near them invis and they just move slowly toward the sound.... they also move toward their friends who are agroed on something.... just like before.

But... if they have not agroed on something else yet, walking anywhere close enough fo rthem to hear you, and they immediately agro on you.

Also, the dog I agroed, beat up the dog I empathied (with other dogs) but then was still agroed on me... he re started his search animation and came after me.... this is new!

I DDoored and he lost agro.


This is kinda cool... and good to know... but it ruins optinal XP in quests like Claw and Blockade Buster.... no way to move them without causing agro.



Edit: seems that everyworks as before... "if" they agro on something first.

But.. sounds in general do not work if they are not first agroed... by players walking near them.
Walking while invised near unagroed monsters causes imediate agro.... which they do not lose even if they fight another monster...


Guess I'm gonna start sacrificing Celestial Dogs again. ;)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Haste no longer seems to make noise BTW.

[fco-karatekid]

(possibly good info).

Shh! :D :D

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Shh! :D :D

lol.. well I'm still trying to figure out just what WAI actually is... :confused: