Daily Dice = Electronic Gambling

[barecm]

We can buy shards, with real money to gamble with on the daily dice. Seems like it could be beyond the grey area and full on gambling to me. Real money with a game of chance. I think this could open up a whole can of bad worms for Turbine if someone with an addiction decides to bring a law suit. Even casinos have to publically warn people, run service adds and have age restrictions and must be located in areas that allow gambling and such.

[sk3l3t0r]

agreed, see my concerns in this post:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4947803&postcount=36

[MsEricka]

What a stretch..


Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period.

The outcome is certain, you will receive a reward with a pre-determined guaranteed outcome.

Therefore, not gambling.

[bonscott87]

To be honest, I'd have to believe it would be illegal in some states of the US if not in some countries around the world. But then they have big name lawyers for a reason, one would think they cleared it with legal first.

[droid327]

The legality of contests of all kinds varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction

Generally, the characteristic that makes gambling gambling is the possibility of winning back more money than you spend. Since there are no cash prizes, its more like a raffle than an actual lottery.

[sk3l3t0r]

I think what the OP is really getting at is not if it's LEGAL or NOT, it probably is legit the way they implemented it, but the effect it will have on the players and the behaviour and tragedies it can enable within the member community is more the issue at the heart of the concern not the fact it was implemented.

[LOOON375]

Any issues have already been gone over and through with their legal department.............it would be safe to say.

[Hendrik]

What a stretch..



The outcome is certain, you will receive a reward with a pre-determined guaranteed outcome.

Therefore, not gambling.

And since you cannot win money nor material goods, not gambling.

[adam1oftheround]

If you double click, your first click was free, and the second cost you three shards. Did anyone else double click by mistake and get charged shards for something like a collectible : One Amber Vial?

Worst mechanic in the game. You can double click to spend real money, or I should say, shards that cost real money.

Please add a confirm window to any purchases that require shards to be spent, if that is buying gold seal hirelings or if it is gambling.



(Standard): You obtain an Amber Vial, and 4 Khyber Dragonshard Fragments.

(Standard): You rolled 37 on your Daily Dice and earned a Collectables prize!

This states it is my daily dice roll, but it charges me Astral Shards.

[moriedhel]

As per the EULA you agreed too, once you use money to buy anything related to the game (TP/astral shards/whatever) you are granted basically a license to use those items in the game. That's it.

You do not own them. It is specifically stated that you agree they have no real world value. How can you gamble something you don't own and that doesn't have any real value ? :p

[Chai]

Part of the technicality here is people are using "no cash value" in game currency in order to ante up for this. While kids might empty mommy and daddys credit card buying points to buy shards to keep rolling ad nauseum, they could already do that to buy points, long before the "gambling" aspect was ever introduced.

Im not in favor of this type of mechanism either, but I understand why they can do it and not have to follow the same rules Zynga or other online poker places have to follow.

[madmaxhunter]

And since you cannot win money nor material goods, not gambling.

Easy as that eh? Some states have extremely strict views on gambling. Have you seen TV giveaways that only need a phone call, or an web site reply, sweepstakes that involve NO money at all but give a prize, and did you notice there is ALWAYS a disclaimer excluding certain states?

[Antiguo]

And since you cannot win money nor material goods, not gambling.

You can win astral shards and concentred mnemonic pots, that are 2 steps away from having cash value, its a grey area.

[droid327]

You can win astral shards and concentred mnemonic pots, that are 2 steps away from having cash value, its a grey area.

Please tell me how I can (legitly) turn any Shards I win into real money in my bank account :)

Just because you pay money for something, does not mean that thing continues to have a cash value.

You pay money for a new car, but as soon as you drive it off the lot it loses thousands of dollars in value.

I paid money for my lunch, but I dont think anyone's going to make me an offer on it when I'm finished...

[Seager52]

First off Gambling can be construde when not winning currency but that isnt what gets them off the hook and make it not gambling.

They implemented a system to get shards without money. Monster manual for first few then the Shard market to increase amount without real money. Now it is the choice of the player to enhance their chances by using real money to play a game more. Also the reward is not tangible or trasferable to a tangible thing without breaking their rules that you all agreed to.

So in a court it wouldnt take much of a lawyer to claim that since the items awarded are only usable in the game setting that it is therefore only a gmae enhancement.

Side note: Twisting words and definitions does not make something illegeal because it can be streched to fit. Grey areas like this is being claimed have to be proceeded by a judge to be illegal, so therefore the worst that could happen to them is they have to take it down.

P.S: To clearify it is against Turbine (DDO) rules to sell any item (mana pots, loot) for real money or TP cards...just because people do it doesnt mean that it is ok with the Devs

[Antiguo]

As per the EULA you agreed too, once you use money to buy anything related to the game (TP/astral shards/whatever) you are granted basically a license to use those items in the game. That's it.

You do not own them. It is specifically stated that you agree they have no real world value. How can you gamble something you don't own and that doesn't have any real value ? :p


Agreeing whit the EULA doesnt make some things legal, not saying that the dice is breaking the law tho, just that the EULA agreegement is not the alfa and omega of all legal issues whit this game, like some people thinks.

[fco-karatekid]

Only way I could see this being an issue is if they could refund you in cash.

[Kilbar]

Easy as that eh? Some states have extremely strict views on gambling. Have you seen TV giveaways that only need a phone call, or an web site reply, sweepstakes that involve NO money at all but give a prize, and did you notice there is ALWAYS a disclaimer excluding certain states?

Well let's see... Turbine is owned by Warner Brothers. That means they're ultimately answerable to the Bunny. I don't think Bugs is gonna draw any unnecessary legal fire by not doing his due diligence on something like this. If YOU could get in trouble, so could the company sponsoring the gambling operation.

[Postumus]

We can buy shards, with real money to gamble with on the daily dice. Seems like it could be beyond the grey area and full on gambling to me. Real money with a game of chance.

Is it really gambling when the 'payout' is in fake money and pixels? Where can I cash out my winnings to buy the pizza and beer? The real money payout is always zero. That isn't gambling, that's called purchasing... or throwing your money away depending on your point of view.

[Hendrik]

Easy as that eh? Some states have extremely strict views on gambling. Have you seen TV giveaways that only need a phone call, or an web site reply, sweepstakes that involve NO money at all but give a prize, and did you notice there is ALWAYS a disclaimer excluding certain states?

Yes, that easy. Oddly, those prizes have VALUE. Real world value. As in they are worth money and can be sold, again, for money - in the real world. Not to mention taxes if you win something that has a high value. Since you agree that nothing in DDO has any value in the real world, you cannot gamble with something that does not exist outside of a virtual world nor has any monetary value.

Try to pay your bills yet with astral shards that you got? Buy a cup of coffee? Lunch? You cannot because they have no value, no monetary value. And don't try the 'but you can buy them' thing because Turbine gives them away for free - because then Turbine is giving us money. Not only that, once you have AS, you cannot excange them for real cash - you can only exchange them for other items in game with no value. And it is illegal for you to sell items of no value for real cash.


So, list those states and we will petition to close all access to DDO from those states/countries so the rest of us with common sense can continue to play.

:D

Also, will help with lag.

See, win/win.

[DeafeningWhisper]

It's not gambling, I live in Quebec, a place where we are not part of tons of promotions because the body in charge of gambling demands a % on all the gambling/games of luck (includes many types of promotions).

They did not stop DDO from shipping this update to Quebec, so it can't be gambling, let put it this way Loto Quebec is the type to prevent cereal trade ins for cheap watches and stuff like that.

If a promotion has a "not available in certain places" Quebec is almost certainly one of them...


It's not gambling, a shameless money grab that would shame a loan shark? Yes, but not gambling.

[HungarianRhapsody]

What a stretch..



The outcome is certain, you will receive a reward with a pre-determined guaranteed outcome.

Therefore, not gambling.

The outcome is not certain. You will receive a reward with a highly variable value.

If I offer you a d6 roll where you get the resulting number of dollars as payment and I charge $4 for the roll, that is clearly gambling. You pay $4 and receive a random whole number of dollars from 1 through 6 in return. Obviously gambling in spite of the fact that you are guaranteed to receive a reward.

The fact that you always receive at least *some* minimal value for your wager does not cause the bet to no longer be gambling.

Please note: I am not claiming that the daily dice is gambling. I am not claiming that the daily dice is not gambling. I am only pointing out that MsEricka's reasoning is incorrect in this case. The fact that you always receive some reward does not determine whether the daily dice is gambling in any way.

[Postumus]

It's not gambling, I live in Quebec, a place where we are not part of tons of promotions because the body in charge of gambling demands a % on all the gambling/games of luck (includes many types of promotions).

They did not stop DDO from shipping this update to Quebec, so it can't be gambling, let put it this way Loto Quebec is the type to prevent cereal trade ins for cheap watches and stuff like that.

If a promotion has a "not available in certain places" Quebec is almost certainly one of them...


It's not gambling, a shameless money grab that would shame a loan shark? Yes, but not gambling.


If Quebec says it isn't gambling, that's good enough for me. But shouldn't you have posted this information both French and English?

[Nestroy]

Whatever the Daily Dice is, it is first and foremost a complete rip-off. 12 Astral Shards for a gold roll? really? For some lousy bouble I should give 12 Astral Shards = 60 TP (app.)???

If that is not a rip-off, I do not know what is.

[sk3l3t0r]

Part of the technicality here is people are using "no cash value" in game currency in order to ante up for this. While kids might empty mommy and daddys credit card buying points to buy shards to keep rolling ad nauseum, they could already do that to buy points, long before the "gambling" aspect was ever introduced.

Im not in favor of this type of mechanism either, but I understand why they can do it and not have to follow the same rules Zynga or other online poker places have to follow.

I am totally on side with fact the abuse existed long before the "gambling" aspect was introduced, possible, but highly unlikely. Adding a gambling element makes it a bit more possible, but still unlikely to occur save a few very rare exceptions.

I am sure they are doing everything by the book here legally. It's more of a Moral / Ethical issue than a legal issue that has some people upset. To many it is perceived as underhanded and crooked to be taking advantage of people's weaknesses or lack of control.

That is the root issue here I believe, the optics and the perception, not the legalities of the feature / function introduced. On the flip side, one could argue that gaming itself is an addiction and should be done away with altogether...it's a slippery slope.

People kill and go to war for what they believe in, do not discount the impact this will have on the community when moral / ethical boundaries are crossed...people will leave this game because of this, not many, but some will because for them it's a line that should have never been crossed.

[Postumus]

The outcome is not certain. You will receive a reward with a highly variable value.




Nope. You will certainly spend your astral shards and certainly receive a set of pixels for your shards. In terms of real world value all the pixels have the same value to Turbine. It's an in game mini-game that doesn't pay out in real world currency. Ergo, not gambling.

Besides, Quebec says it isn't.

[HungarianRhapsody]

They did not stop DDO from shipping this update to Quebec, so it can't be gambling, let put it this way Loto Quebec is the type to prevent cereal trade ins for cheap watches and stuff like that.

This also is irrelevant.

It's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone under 21 in the state of Pennsylvania, but "they" did not stop thousands of underage people from buying alcohol every day. That doesn't mean those people were over 21 and that doesn't mean that what they purchased wasn't alcohol. It just means that those transactions were all illegal.

The fact that "they" did not stop DDO from shipping could have a wide variety of reasons - first among them is that "they" probably have no idea that DDO is shipping a new feature called the Daily Dice and that it might involve something that could turn out to be gambling from a legal standpoint.

It's also entirely possible for the Daily Dice to be considered gambling in one country while it is not gambling in another country.

Again, I'm not saying that the Dailly Dice is gambling. I'm not saying that it is not gambling. I'm just pointing out that the fact that "they" did not stop DDO from shipping the new update is not an automatic guarantee that the Daily Dice is not gambling.

[moriedhel]

Agreeing whit the EULA doesnt make some things legal, not saying that the dice is breaking the law tho, just that the EULA agreegement is not the alfa and omega of all legal issues whit this game, like some people thinks.
True, I mean if they would change it over night and say that once you login your house belongs to them I'm sure it would be able to be proven illegal and abusive.

But in this particular case, it's not like they're treading new uncharted legal waters, I am pretty sure lots of games have done this before. Therefore I am pretty convinced it's legal.

On the issue of is it moral however, everyone can take their own side. I don't find it to be much worse than the skimpy outfits for female characters, or the violence. Or more addictive than a MMO, or even than just buying plain TP to get your gem/xp boost fix. There's potential for abuse and addiction in just about anything.

[DeafeningWhisper]

If Quebec says it isn't gambling, that's good enough for me. But shouldn't you have posted this information both French and English?

LOL God no, if "Pastagate" thought us anything is that forcing one's language down people throats in the wrong venue (like, let say an English forum) is just plain dumb :)

[sk3l3t0r]

If Quebec says it isn't gambling, that's good enough for me. But shouldn't you have posted this information both French and English?

LOL...Being Francophone and a non Québécois, I find this funny...not too often someone pokes fun at my Canadian cousins in Québec. :)

Actually it should have been in big French letters with English subscript or the French language police will come and get you !!! hehehe

[HungarianRhapsody]

Nope. You will certainly spend your astral shards and certainly receive a set of pixels for your shards. In terms of real world value all the pixels have the same value to Turbine. It's an in game mini-game that doesn't pay out in real world currency. Ergo, not gambling.

Besides, Quebec says it isn't.

And right there is an argument that I can get behind. Those pixels have a highly variable value, but their *monetary* value can absolutely be argued to be $0.

The only problem that would come up with that argument is if someone could successfully argue that some of the prizes do have a real monetary value (and I'd be surprised if a lawyer were able to argue that successfully, but I wouldn't be absolutely shocked).

And when/where did Quebec say that Turbine's Daily Dice isn't gambling? Can I please get a link for that?

[HungarianRhapsody]

They did not stop DDO from shipping this update to Quebec, so it can't be gambling

In related news, I was not speeding this morning because no cops pulled me over.

[Postumus]

LOL...Being Francophone and a non Québécois, I find this funny...not too often someone pokes fun at my Canadian cousins in Québec. :)

Actually it should have been in big French letters with English subscript or the French language police will come and get you !!! hehehe

I always think of this scene in Canadian Bacon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5l0PD80u9k#t=57s) where Dan Akroyd fines John Candy for the graffiti on his truck not being in both English and French.

[danzig138]

As much as I think this is a flawed implementation of a dubious idea, with possible intentional "opps" style deceit involved, I'm willing to bet they covered their bases on the whole gambling issue.

[DeafeningWhisper]

This also is irrelevant.

It's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone under 21 in the state of Pennsylvania, but "they" did not stop thousands of underage people from buying alcohol every day. That doesn't mean those people were over 21 and that doesn't mean that what they purchased wasn't alcohol. It just means that those transactions were all illegal.

The fact that "they" did not stop DDO from shipping could have a wide variety of reasons - first among them is that "they" probably have no idea that DDO is shipping a new feature called the Daily Dice and that it might involve something that could turn out to be gambling from a legal standpoint.

It's also entirely possible for the Daily Dice to be considered gambling in one country while it is not gambling in another country.

Again, I'm not saying that the Dailly Dice is gambling. I'm not saying that it is not gambling. I'm just pointing out that the fact that "they" did not stop DDO from shipping the new update is not an automatic guarantee that the Daily Dice is not gambling.

And I'm just point it out why *I* don't think it's gambling, basically your post I just quoted brings nothing to the thread since all you did was point out the obvious while purposely avoiding the question: "is it gambling or not".

I believe that to be more irrelevant.

[Postumus]

And when/where did Quebec say that Turbine's Daily Dice isn't gambling? Can I please get a link for that?

Dude, it was a j-o-k-e.

[sk3l3t0r]

I always think of this scene in Canadian Bacon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5l0PD80u9k#t=57s) where Dan Akroyd fines John Candy for the graffiti on his truck not being in both English and French.

OMG!!! HAHAHAHA, love it...

[DeafeningWhisper]

And when/where did Quebec say that Turbine's Daily Dice isn't gambling? Can I please get a link for that?

LOL, cute... Have you tried having an *actual* opinion on the matter at hand or are you still only analysing people with enough guts to voice what *they* think?

[Hafeal]

Gambling has broad definitions and varies from State to State in the U.S. I think States would be more interested in Turbine's action from a taxing perspective. I certainly think the lottery represents 'gambling' - especially as promoted now in the game interface.

In Illinois, for example, the raffle statutes say among other things:


(230 ILCS 15/1)(from Ch. 85, par. 2301)
Sec. 1. Definitions. For the purposes of this Act the terms defined in this Section have the meanings given them.
"Net Proceeds" means the gross receipts from the conduct of raffles, less reasonable sums expended for prizes, local license fees and other reasonable operating expenses incurred as a result of operating a raffle.
"Raffle" means a form of lottery, as defined in Section 28-2(b) of the Criminal Code of 2012, conducted by an organization licensed under this Act, in which:
(1) the player pays or agrees to pay something of value for a chance, represented and differentiated by a number or by a combination of numbers or by some other medium, one or more of which chances is to be designated the winning chance;
(2) the winning chance is to be determined through a drawing or by some other method based on an element of chance by an act or set of acts on the part of persons conducting or connected with the lottery, except that the winning chance shall not be determined by the outcome of a publicly exhibited sporting contest.
(Source: P.A. 97-1150, eff. 1-25-13.)
You can find the full Illinois Act here (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1400&ChapterID=25), as well as links to other laws regarding gambling here (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs2.asp?ChapterID=25). Illinois is similar to other State's in its approach to gambling so I am sure other State's have similar, if not often the same, statute.

[Tenelai]

Just my opinion, but it doesn't have to be 'gambling' to fall under laws and such prohibiting/regulating this type of behavior.

Just a thought here: If a contest that you paid money to enter gave you songs on your itunes account (songs on itunes have pretty much the same tos as pixels in game) would you guys consider that gambling?

What if it cost 3x the price of a song to enter and you got between 1 and 6 songs?

Bear in mind, you can't sell the songs back so by the argument people are making in this thread, 'they have no real world value'

<Tene

[KingofDiamondz]

You guys crack me up. *Grabs Popcorn*

[DeafeningWhisper]

OMG!!! HAHAHAHA, love it...

I love that scene, because I have actually seen it play out, guys where doing Spanish tags on a wall where graffitis were allowed cops asked what it meant and eventually the kids wrote it in broken French!

The funny thing was how serious the cops were about it.

[HungarianRhapsody]

And I'm just point it out why *I* don't think it's gambling, basically your post I just quoted brings nothing to the thread since all you did was point out the obvious while purposely avoiding the question: "is it gambling or not".

I believe that to be more irrelevant.

Is it gambling or not? That's still an open question in most countries.

I think it's likely that games like this will turn out to be "not gambling" in most cases, but that's not a certain outcome. The fundamental issue (as Postumus correctly pointed out) is whether the thing that you are betting and whether the thing(s) that you are receiving have some sort of material value.

I did purposely avoid answering the question of "is it gambling or not" because NONE of us here knows that answer, no matter what we might claim. I think it's *probably* not gambling, but until it's challenged in the courts and comes out of the court system after all appeals on both sides have been exhausted, then it's not a certain thing. And no internet game sort-of-feels-like-gambling-but-is-it? cases have wound their way through the court systems of any countries yet because the issues are just too new to have done so and no prosecutors have been aggressive enough to push those through up til now...

Anyone saying that they know for certain that the Daily Dice is gambling is incorrect.
Anyone saying that they know for certain that the Daily Dice is not gambling is also incorrect.
For now, the most we can say for certain is that the Daily Dice is unlikely to be prosecuted as a test case because Turbine isn't one of the big players in the MMO genre and because it's not as interesting of a test case as the gambling in some other games because there is no easy route to get your winnings back out of the game.

[HungarianRhapsody]

LOL, cute... Have you tried having an *actual* opinion on the matter at hand or are you still only analysing people with enough guts to voice what *they* think?

I've stated my opinion multiple times across multiple threads (and I have written my opinion here as well). Having the "guts" to voice an opinion on a legal question is pointless when the opinion that they're posting is blatantly wrong.

If I have the "guts" to claim that arsenic is a tasty and nutritious treat, should I be applauded?

[Gkar]

Easy as that eh? Some states have extremely strict views on gambling. Have you seen TV giveaways that only need a phone call, or an web site reply, sweepstakes that involve NO money at all but give a prize, and did you notice there is ALWAYS a disclaimer excluding certain states?

Those prizes have a material value. An SP potion has no FMV.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I did purposely avoid answering the question of "is it gambling or not" because NONE of us here knows that answer, no matter what we might claim.

Not knowing the answer and not having an opinion is not the same thing, I don't claim to know the truth (Hell was is true is subjective enough as is) I do claim to have an opinion thou. Is is right? Wrong? No idea...

Everything else writting in the post I didn't quote I agree completely.

[Kilbar]

If I have the "guts" to claim that arsenic is a tasty and nutritious treat, should I be applauded?

If you manage to sucker some of these anal retentive turnips into using it as a pizza topping, then yes, you should.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I've stated my opinion multiple times across multiple threads (and I have written my opinion here as well). Having the "guts" to voice an opinion on a legal question is pointless when the opinion that they're posting is blatantly wrong.

If I have the "guts" to claim that arsenic is a tasty and nutritious treat, should I be applauded?

You wrote your opinion on this thread after I wrote this, I don't follow you around to see what you write on other threads you know...

I don't think you know what an opinion is, seen how you equate them with answers or facts.


P.S. Arsenic is said to taste like almonds, just saying :)

[Postumus]

Those prizes have a material value. An SP potion has no FMV.

I don't know. I offered to tip the pizza delivery guy in Greater Essences when I noticed he had a "WF R NOT ROBOTZ!" t-shirt. He seemed pretty excited about it until we realized we were on different servers. :(

[HungarianRhapsody]

Not knowing the answer and not having an opinion is not the same thing, I don't claim to know the truth (Hell was is true is subjective enough as is) I do claim to have an opinion thou. Is is right? Wrong? No idea...

Everything else writting in the post I didn't quote I agree completely.

If you're just looking for opinions on whether the Daily Dice is gambling in the personal sense and not whether it meets the legal definition of gambling, I'd say that it absolutely is for me. Whether the things you're wagering and the things you're potentially winning have a *material* value isn't nearly as important as whether they have real value to the participants.

I just object to people stating legal opinions with unsound reasoning.

[Postumus]

If I have the "guts" to claim that arsenic is a tasty and nutritious treat, should I be applauded?

Not really, the homeopathic industry has been using arsenic in it's 'remedies' for quite a while now.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You wrote your opinion on this thread after I wrote this, I don't follow you around to see what you write on other threads you know...

I don't think you know what an opinion is, seen how you equate them with answers or facts.


P.S. Arsenic is said to taste like almonds, just saying :)

Opinions on what is good/bad/tasty/etc. are different from legal opinions. If you're going to state a legal opinion, you need to be able to back it up with sound reasoning and legal arguments. And if you're offering an opinion on whether something is legal or not, that's absolutely a legal opinion.

[Vint]

Illinois is similar to other State's in its approach to gambling so I am sure other State's have similar, if not often the same, statute.

While this is an interesting read, I bet Turbine's high priced lawyers have this set up to be kosher with any law.

I just wish they would quit paying the ambulance chasers and put my P2W money back into the game.

[barecm]

As soon as there is some bad press or a law suit, you will see this removed. I am not so sure why they would even open this can of worms in the first place. Legal or not, it doesn't look good. There are plenty of other ways to separate folks from their dollars than a lottery. If they really wanted to make some cash, a DDO store tool to unbind raid loot or something you know folks will buy over and over.

[madmaxhunter]

Those prizes have a material value. An SP potion has no FMV.

So, paying nothing for something of value is possibly illegal.
Paying something for something of no value is legal.

I don't really care if it is legal or not. You all can say whatever you want. It only takes one state AG with a dislike of gambling (or MMOs) to start the ball rolling.

And all this "lawyers got it handled talk". Let me break it to you, companies will do whatever they feel like until they get that cease in desist order. After that it becomes a court thing.

[Hafeal]

While this is an interesting read, I bet Turbine's high priced lawyers have this set up to be kosher with any law.

I just wish they would quit paying the ambulance chasers and put my P2W money back into the game.

That is quite an assumption. I never assume anyone has vetted every action or product through every statute - if they did, nothing would get done. My guess is the vetting wasn't as thorough as you might think. No one likes to pay 'high priced' lawyers - especially when it might involve getting attorneys from many multiple jurisdictions. Sure, you could hire a (really, really expensive) multi-national firm but there is no assurance they did so.

There have been many a time where firms and government read statutes differently - just ask Microsoft or Google. What does Turbine care if they can generate enough cash from the offering and then withdraw if there is some legal flare-up? That is much less expensive than hiring 'high priced lawyers ' and going through a vetting process which would likely slow the process of implementing this for a long time.

[DeafeningWhisper]

If you're just looking for opinions on whether the Daily Dice is gambling in the personal sense and not whether it meets the legal definition of gambling, I'd say that it absolutely is for me. Whether the things you're wagering and the things you're potentially winning have a *material* value isn't nearly as important as whether they have real value to the participants.

I just object to people stating legal opinions with unsound reasoning.

Dude, the Quebec thing was a joke, at least Postumus got it...

The internet in-general is a free for all when it comes to gambling and virtual transactions, the day they regulate it in a way it makes any sort of sense it would mean they have control on what can and cannot exist on the web, lets juts say it's not any time soon.

Case by case is the best I have heard of on online gambling, so it would need to go to court for an "answer".

[Postumus]

I never assume anyone has vetted every action or product through every statute - if they did, nothing would get done. My guess is the vetting wasn't as thorough as you might think.

I'd take that bet, but I don't want to break any gambling laws.

[Postumus]

Dude, the Quebec thing was a joke, at least Postumus got it...



Which sets the bar pretty low...

[Hendrik]

As soon as there is some bad press or a law suit, you will see this removed. I am not so sure why they would even open this can of worms in the first place. Legal or not, it doesn't look good. There are plenty of other ways to separate folks from their dollars than a lottery. If they really wanted to make some cash, a DDO store tool to unbind raid loot or something you know folks will buy over and over.

Belly up some real world cash and retain a lawyer and get it removed then. Im sure you can find one that would just love to take your money from you and laugh his way to the bank.

Unless you can find a lawyer that works for AD. Maybe one that works for TP codes? Maybe a couple dozen Otto Boxes?

[sk3l3t0r]

I love that scene, because I have actually seen it play out, guys where doing Spanish tags on a wall where graffitis were allowed cops asked what it meant and eventually the kids wrote it in broken French!

The funny thing was how serious the cops were about it.

The OLF (Office de la Langue Française) takes French language very seriously in Québec, cracking down on businesses and organisations with fines and charges if they are found to be non-compliant.

Check this out - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/02/25/quebec-restaurants-language-police.html

back on track to the debate about Daily Dice and gambling:

Comes back down to people willing to do anything for their beliefs. When you cross that moral / ethical line of what is right or wrong in your belief structure you are prepared to do anything to fight for it, including going to war or killing someone.

Some poeple will be so upset over this that they will leave the game because they feel that "gambling" as perceived in this Daily dice feature / funciton / mini-game (whatever you want to call it) does not belong in DDO. Not many will leave, but some will because it goes against what they believe in and they will not support it.

[Qezuzu]

No one complains about Team Fortress 2's Mann Co. Crates.

No one complains about Star Trek Online's Lock Boxes.

Yes, there it is chance and you pay money for that chance, but it does not fall under the same laws as online gambling games. Stop trying to argue that it does.

[HungarianRhapsody]

No one complains about Team Fortress 2's Mann Co. Crates.

No one complains about Star Trek Online's Lock Boxes.

Yes, there it is chance and you pay money for that chance, but it does not fall under the same laws as online gambling games. Stop trying to argue that it does.

I am willing to bet real world money that those two statements are incorrect. Do Team Fortress 2 and Star Trek Online have internet forums? If so, then *someone* is complaining about those features.

[Qezuzu]

Do Team Fortress 2 and Star Trek Online have internet forums?

Yes, they're quite big games.


If so, then *someone* is complaining about those features.

No, no they're not, because Mann Co. Crates and lockboxes have been out for years and everyone understands that if you don't like it, you don't have to participate. They also generate a lot of revenue for the game and it's generally a good thing if games get money without having to inconvenience the players.

I'll give it a week or so until people stop whining about the Daily Dice.

[sk3l3t0r]

No one complains about Team Fortress 2's Mann Co. Crates.

No one complains about Star Trek Online's Lock Boxes.

Yes, there it is chance and you pay money for that chance, but it does not fall under the same laws as online gambling games. Stop trying to argue that it does.

Squeal fo Fortune in Runescape had a huge uproar in it's gaming forums when they implemented a function almost EXACTLY like Daily Dice. However they changed the format of buying spins only to being able to obtain them in game...but only after a huge outcry from the user community.

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Squeal_of_Fortune

The big controversy was around RWT (see controversy section of my link)

I left Runescape when Squeal of Fortune was introduced to come play DDO (not the only reason, but was the straw that broke the cammel's back for me after 6 years of downhill updates that tuned me away fromt he game forever)

[Thalmor]

I have played several MMO that have had a similar mechanism to the "Daily Dice", So I will offer my 2 CP worth of insight as to wether this is gambling or not.

Basically it boils down to the precived game value ( Say Turbine points) of the reward you receive. If this precived value of the reward in TP is greater then or equal to the value of the cost in TP then it isn't considered gambling.

So the question you need to ask is the value ( turbine's preceived value) of you roll greater or equal to the cost for the roll? So is the reward you received worth 3 AS on the Silver Chest table or 15 AS on the Gold Chest table?

So if they are any rewards that have a value that is less then the 3 AS on the silver table of 15 AS on the gold table, then they should modify these to enure that value of the rreward matche the minimum required of said chest table.


Update: After Review of some of the rewards I got today, I not sure some would meet the minimum requirements I mentioned above, so my assumption is some of the rewards from the DD will need to be bumped.

[Hafeal]

As soon as there is some bad press or a law suit, you will see this removed. I am not so sure why they would even open this can of worms in the first place. Legal or not, it doesn't look good. There are plenty of other ways to separate folks from their dollars than a lottery. If they really wanted to make some cash, a DDO store tool to unbind raid loot or something you know folks will buy over and over.

The one thing about this that really bothers me is that this is a game marketed extensively to teenage boys. While we can all say, and presume, as adults that this is a let the "buyer beware' issue - everyone who has played knows there are plenty of impressionable kids running around. This move really smacks as one step in race to exploit the kids that play; kids who don't understand the values or the conversions or who just do not know better.

The fact that there is essentially 1 intermediate step between directly using real money to click the 'one arm bandit' v. TPs is an illusion. Hold it up as a curtain if you wish, but the curtain is see-through. :(

[SiliconScout]

I have yet to see a reasonable answer to this question. Perhaps this thread will illuminate me.

What is it that makes using Astral Shards for another roll on the daily dice chest "gambling" yet doesn't make using Turbine Points to buy a Raid bypass timer to gain multiple chest rolls "gambling".

if anything the Raid by-pass timer seems more like gambling because turbine points are essentially cash (at least 1 step closer to it) and the raid might fail and thus you might not get ANY reward for your money.

Honestly if they had simply created a level 1 raid with no flaggin called the "Coin Lord's Leftovers" that was a daily only raid that only required you to walk up and open a chest for a single item reward and no favor or XP would the "it's gambling" crowd still call it gambling. I mean you could spend extra TP for that bypass timer AND TP for a loot gem ... hell it would probably make them more money in the end.

I think that the fact it's called daily dice is why people get so up in arms over it.

It's silly honestly, and if you think it's truly gambling then REPORT Turbine and WB for it to the authorities. I am willing to bet nothing at all comes from your report.

[knightgf]

I encourage those who believe that the ddo daily dice program is illegal to use should first off, never use it. Additionally, if your state or country has laws against gambling of this nature, review these laws, and if need be, take it up to a agency such as the BBB or another similar type of agency for feedback.

[Hendrik]

I encourage those who believe that the ddo daily dice program is illegal to use should first off, never use it. Additionally, if your state or country has laws against gambling of this nature, review these laws, and if need be, take it up to a agency such as the BBB or another similar type of agency for feedback.

Also, be sure to include the part of the contract that states the end user is responsible to follow all local laws.

Those agencies will need that information to properly file the complaint into Circular File 13.

[SirValentine]

The outcome is certain, you will receive a reward with a pre-determined guaranteed outcome.


Wait, so it's not just gambling, but fraudulently rigged gambling?

[HungarianRhapsody]

I have yet to see a reasonable answer to this question. Perhaps this thread will illuminate me.

What is it that makes using Astral Shards for another roll on the daily dice chest "gambling" yet doesn't make using Turbine Points to buy a Raid bypass timer to gain multiple chest rolls "gambling".

The significant difference is that what you do (i.e. whether you complete the raid) determines whether you get the reward.

Here is a definition of gambling (there are many definitions that may vary slightly, but the core is all similar):

A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

In the raid, you have control or influence over the outcome. In the daily dice, the only conrol or influence that you have is your choice to engage in the transaction or not.

[My2Cents]

(I lost a bunch of shards because of the mechnic, but that aside:


I'm always amazed at how so many discussions i see focus on the "legality" of a situation without including a discussion of its "appropriateness".

Laws are often imperfect, and often under adjustment, they're the best we can do at forming "rules" to approximate "justice", but they are often subject to bias, control of the powerful, and lag in time adapting to new and more complicated technological circumstances.

"Just 'cuz someone CAN do sumthin don't mean it's sumthin' they SHOULD do."

[SiliconScout]

The significant difference is that what you do (i.e. whether you complete the raid) determines whether you get the reward.

Here is a definition of gambling (there are many definitions that may vary slightly, but the core is all similar):

A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

In the raid, you have control or influence over the outcome. In the daily dice, the only conrol or influence that you have is your choice to engage in the transaction or not.

Still I fail to see the distinction.

And I certainly cannot control the other 11 people in the raid and they certainly can influence the outcome both in blowing the raid or saving it entirely. I have saved more than 1 raid from a wipe AND I have been involved in several raids where the actions of others (or my failure in a task) has resulted in the raid failing / wiping.

The something of value is TP in once case and AS in another. Both can be bought OR earned

The contest of chance is not dissimilar opening a chest results in a roll on a loot table, daily dice results in a roll on a loot table.

Completing a raid or opening the chest results in a reward (something will be given) daily dice also results in a certain reward (something will be given). You receive a similar reward, ergo if one has value the other must as well and you receive them when certain conditions are met (raid completes / chest opens or you roll the daily dice)

By that definition I would have to argue that Using a raid by-pass timer far more closely resembles that definition of gambling as there is a element of risk involved that simply isn't there with daily dice.

[Uma-Quixote]

I'll give it a week or so until people stop whining about the Daily Dice.


I bet you 1,000 shards they are still whining in a weeks time........

[Jeremiah179]

It doesnt matter if it is gambling - it utilizes the gambling mechanism to extract money out of willing, albeit stupid participants - and also the occasional thrill seeker risk taker curious and walking by...

But it is more like the carnival game with giant prizes hanging down...

10 $1 attempts and you think your getting the hang of it...

20 $1 attempts and you finally nail it once... and for your $30? They reach under counter and give you... 38 Lesser Essence of Evil! (lol) Or a tiny squeeky toy from under the counter and tell you you need to trade it up.

****
90-100 Big Prize Time... 75 Astral Shards. 5x15(wager)=75 or 5-1 Payout. Chance = 10/100 or 10-1 Odds.
Even vegas would blush... in almost every scenario you are better off just playing normal game without this tool and simply purchasing anything you would desperately want with TP in store.
****

ASAH - another joke... you are better off doing a straight deal - TP Card for XX Item or Goods. Rather than giving turbine 40% of your transaction.

The only exception might be -- using the device to transfer a bound item from one person to the other... this is the only worthy service available and would rather buy a magic item to use on a bound item to make it tradable one time in a trade window. A Trade Bypass Item.

This would be straight forward, and honest. The current new system is shady.

[mystafyi]

I offered to tip the pizza delivery guy in Greater Essences when I noticed he had a "WF R NOT ROBOTZ!" t-shirt. He seemed pretty excited about it until we realized we were on different servers. :(

Best post in this thread by far. now this thread can die happy.

[MsEricka]

Please note: I am not claiming that the daily dice is gambling. I am not claiming that the daily dice is not gambling. I am only pointing out that MsEricka's reasoning is incorrect in this case. The fact that you always receive some reward does not determine whether the daily dice is gambling in any way.

I can mostly agree with you, except the gambling definition is predicated on one word "wager".


Something staked on an uncertain outcome; a bet.

My argument here is completely based on the words uncertain outcome. Perhaps I should not have forgotten to add this to my first post (oops!). Since we know what the outcome will be, it is not considered a bet. Yes the reward is random, but we know we're going to get a reward.

It's no different than buying a "surprise box" or bag from a retailer. Sure we take a chance that what we buy is going to be worth the cost, but it's legal because we are purchasing a random item.

[Deathdefy]

Every US State statute defining gambling includes the definition of 'something of value' [for a chance to win] 'something of value' - I think it's the 'lottery' type of gambling under most statutes. http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/ is an interesting browse.

Hawaii (which haaaates gambling) actually defines 'something of value', unlike many of the other states which don't bother:


(11) "Something of value " means any money or property, any token, object, or article exchangeable for money or property, or any form of credit or promise directly or indirectly contemplating transfer of money or property or of any interest therein, or involving extension of a service or entertainment.


I... don't know. I think whether in-game stuff is 'something of value' depends on how you define property. I strongly suspect that the trick Turbine has up its sleeve is the EULA we sign each update.

Given we never have proprietary rights over anything in our account, we can't actually win property (and obviously not money), so ddo doesn't fall foul of it? Obviously this isn't exactly in my wheelhouse, but that's my best guess.

[Missing_Minds]

No, no they're not, because Mann Co. Crates and lockboxes have been out for years and everyone understands that if you don't like it, you don't have to participate. They also generate a lot of revenue for the game and it's generally a good thing if games get money without having to inconvenience the players.

I'll give it a week or so until people stop whining about the Daily Dice.
Ah, but the lock boxes there (and CO) there the ONLY way to get some costume parts/ships.

So you had to literately pay to gamble at a chance to get a rare item.

And you know... as much as I HATE to say it. It is perfectly legal and that sort of thing has been happening in the US for ages. I just thought of an analogy to those lockboxes that is pretty tight.

Collectable Cards. Be it MtG, flavor of the month, Baseball, Pokemon.... Each lockbox is like a Card expansion pack. The chance of a rare card is always there, will you be lucky? I know of no country at all that has declared those illegal and those are directed at kids.

And now that I've rolled the dice, I stand with those 100% that state the interface needs to be refined to protect against constant rollings when you must pay up shards. There should be a confirmation about spending shards.
But I do not find the dice to be gambling at all in the form of legalese that could make it illegal.

[sirgog]

Under Australian law this is pretty clearly an illegal gambling setup by Turbine/Warner Bros. It's not skirting at the edges, it's a pretty clear breach. Running a for-profit raffle without a permit is illegal here unless it is a fundraiser for a non-profit organisation.

Taking real money for entry into a game of chance with prizes is gambling, whether or not the prizes can be redeemed for cash.

It's a minor offense legally if they don't market to under 18s, and a pretty serious one if they knowingly market it to under 18s.

[Missing_Minds]

Under Australian law this is pretty clearly an illegal gambling setup by Turbine/Warner Bros. It's not skirting at the edges, it's a pretty clear breach. Running a for-profit raffle without a permit is illegal here unless it is a fundraiser for a non-profit organisation.

Taking real money for entry into a game of chance with prizes is gambling, whether or not the prizes can be redeemed for cash.

It's a minor offense legally if they don't market to under 18s, and a pretty serious one if they knowingly market it to under 18s.
1. It doesn't use real monies, it uses in an in game only currency that isn't portable to other games, even of Turbine's ownership. Nor is there any backward conversion.
2. There there is no chance, it is guaranteed

Is it still gambling? I'm no lawyer, so I expect it to be up to them, not forumites.

Also, be up in arms about it if you want, but in doing so remember. This is Turbine. The easy thing to do is to block the island.

Also that reminds me. Is the Pokemon card game illegal down there?

[Deathdefy]

From previous threads I know there are a surprisingly large number of legally trained forumites. As one of them, it's often saddened me in real life that intelligent people put law in the 'too hard' basket. Usually, relevant statues aren't hard to find and mean what you, assuming the reader is at least kind of bright, think they mean.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/iga2001193/ is our Federal Online Gambling Act.

In a nutshell, all 'gambling services' are illegal unless they fall under an exception. The exceptions are pretty wide and encompass all sports bets and most types of racing bets because we are a country of bogans. DDO doesn't appear to fall under an exception though.

A 'gambling service' includes, relevantly,


(e) a service for the conduct of a game, where:

(i) the game is played for money or anything else of value; and

(ii) the game is a game of chance or of mixed chance and skill; and

(iii) a customer of the service gives or agrees to give consideration to play or enter the game;


(ii) is obviously true, being that the lotteries are pure chance.
(iii) is true for the gold lottery and non-free spins of the silver lottery - 'consideration' being virtually anything, and to my mind doubtless would encompass in-game currencies in MMOs.

So again the whole thing turns on whether the things you can win - Astral Shards / In-game items, etc. are things of value.

Again, I suspect they are not since you hold no proprietary rights in them... on the other hand, obviously they're 'of value' in a subjective sense of being enjoyed by people playing the game.

There's no explicit indication whether 'of value' is intended subjectively or objectively, and I think you can take the plain meaning of the section either way. Similarly, in the context of achieving the purpose of the act as a whole, I also think both make sense.

I searched for citations of the act and the Act has only been used in literally 2 cases since its introduction - neither of which were focused on this section.

So... yeah. I'm pretty certain there's just not an answer in Australia yet.

[BOgre]

You can win astral shards and concentred mnemonic pots, that are 2 steps away from having cash value, its a grey area.

It IS a grey area. One additional aspect, in Canada at least, is that it is illegal to front a gambling stake with a Credit Card. That is, you can't walk in to a bar, and put a roll of quarters on your bar tab for use in the video lottery machines. And since a large portion, or A portion at least, of TP sales are by CC, this may be a further step into that grey. I certainly HOPE that Turbine/WB has consulted their legal dpts thoroughly on this one, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if some lawsuits resulted anyways.

[Postumus]

Under Australian law this is pretty clearly an illegal gambling setup by Turbine/Warner Bros. It's not skirting at the edges, it's a pretty clear breach. Running a for-profit raffle without a permit is illegal here unless it is a fundraiser for a non-profit organisation.

Taking real money for entry into a game of chance with prizes is gambling, whether or not the prizes can be redeemed for cash.

It's a minor offense legally if they don't market to under 18s, and a pretty serious one if they knowingly market it to under 18s.


And yet it is still available in Australia. How do you explain that? Turbine can't put one over on you, but it can on the entire country of Australia? Does that really make sense?

[HungarianRhapsody]

And yet it is still available in Australia. How do you explain that? Turbine can't put one over on you, but it can on the entire country of Australia? Does that really make sense?

In other news, I was not pulled over by a cop for speeding this morning, therefore I was not speeding.

(Did I use that one in this thread before? Or was that a different thread? They're all running together now.)

[Battlehawke]

A simple solution would be for Turbine to add to the UI Panel of options to "Turn off the daily dice". If its against your beliefs then it will be gone.

[sirgog]

And yet it is still available in Australia. How do you explain that? Turbine can't put one over on you, but it can on the entire country of Australia? Does that really make sense?

Because minor crimes by medium to large corporations (and WB are a very large one) are very seldom prosecuted in general as they are expensive to prosecute and there is not much enforcement.

Aggrim posted some of the relevant Australian national laws before, I knew more about the state ones from when I was investigating requirements for running a promotional lottery (sign up a phone plan, maybe win a thousand dollars) for a store I worked at at the time. We could have run that with a permit as long as we didn't charge over AU55c (now AU60c) on top of the purchase of the phone but the store manager decided against it.


Accepting money for entry into an unlicensed lottery in Australia is a crime. Accepting money knowingly from an under 18 for a lottery (licensed or not) is a crime. And offering ANY means of entry that costs over 60c (other than 'the purchase of legitimate goods') for a lottery makes it very difficult to get a permit - the existance of cheaper methods of entry (such as in-game acquired Astral Shards) does not change a thing.

[sirgog]

A simple solution would be for Turbine to add to the UI Panel of options to "Turn off the daily dice". If its against your beliefs then it will be gone.

I doubt Warner Bros would accept 'If torrenting pirated content is against your beliefs, do not install a torrenting program'. Laws apply to everyone, not just those that care about them.

I don't oppose gambling in general - I've been a poker player, and enter the big lotteries here when jackpots lead to them having a positive EV. I do object to attempts to get teenagers addicted to gambling, however, just as I would object to someone selling ecstacy tablets outside the local highschool.

[Qezuzu]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some lawsuits resulted anyways.

By who, exactly? Upset forumites? The most soccer-y of soccer moms? A desperate, roaming Australian lawyer who just happened to stumble upon a niche MMO?

Go ahead, people, find someone in Australia to sue Turbine. I know no one here is actually going to go through with that because a) That's a lot of work, and b) Most people here are not actually concerned with the legality of this, and are just upset that such an obvious cash-grab was put into the game.


Squeal fo Fortune in Runescape had a huge uproar in it's gaming forums when they implemented a function almost EXACTLY like Daily Dice. However they changed the format of buying spins only to being able to obtain them in game...but only after a huge outcry from the user community.

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Squeal_of_Fortune

The big controversy was around RWT (see controversy section of my link)

A quick Google search (squeal of fortune lawsuit, squeal of fortune australia) shows that, about a month ago, an unreputable source said that an Australian Senator was targeting Jagex for this. SOF came out a year ago (?), and I'm not finding any instances of lawsuits arising before February of this year. This is Runescape, whose population is significantly higher than that of DDO and whose player-base is much younger and more susceptible to parental monitoring. And it took a year for anyone to pursue legal action (SOF does not actually break any laws, the senator wants to change the law so Jagex can't skirt around it).

And it might not even be happening: there is precisely one source for this and it's "wizzley.com".

It's likely that Runescape's SOF has been legally scrutinized to death and, nope, no lawsuits, Jagex hasn't changed it. Comparing them, the two systems are very similar, except for one thing: Spins are bought directly (or found in-game), rolls are bought with a virtual game currency that is bought with store credits (or found in-game) which is bought with money.

So DD is arguably a bit more legal than SOF. DDO is also more "under the radar" than Runescape and DD is unlikely to be discovered by anyone of importance. Furthermore, SOF was implemented by Jagex (private company, $45 million revenue in '11), and should Turbine (a subsidiary) get sued it won't be themselves but Warner Bros ($12 billion revenue in '11) who will be in court. If someone thought SOF was worthy of a lawsuit but didn't want to deal with Jagex's legal team, then no one will even think of taking on Warner Bros on this.

It's just not going to happen, folks.

Also, I just calculated that one Gold roll (15 shards), if entirely bought from Turbine points, is around 1.30 USD. This number significantly changes if you purchase something other than the 30 shard pack or a larger increment of TP. I'm still not clear on these lottery permits but, if each roll is treated as a separate lottery, then won't $1.30 USD fall under more than a few thresholds?

[sirgog]

Just gave Woolworths (one of the big supermarkets in Australia and AFAICT the only stocker here of physical TP code cards) a call to ask them why they still sell TP cards to people under 18, given that they can be used as a way to enter an (apparently) unlicensed lottery. Their customer support team said they'd get their Gift Cards - Legal team to investigate the legalities of them selling the cards.


If there is some law I'm not aware of that makes Turbine's lottery here legal, they will have nothing to fear. If Woolworths believe they are being opened up to bad press and/or litigation, however, Turbine will lose a distributor that is quite important to them.

[GeneFrenkle]

Actually it doesn't matter if it's real gambling or not. What matters is if there was ever a lawsuit in the US that went to court. A jury would be asked to decide whether it was illegal or not. Judging by the reactions from people on the forum I think it's likely safe to assume a jury would probably side with those who describe it as "gambling".

[Qezuzu]

Just gave Woolworths (one of the big supermarkets in Australia and AFAICT the only stocker here of physical TP code cards) a call to ask them why they still sell TP cards to people under 18, given that they can be used as a way to enter an (apparently) unlicensed lottery. Their customer support team said they'd get their Gift Cards - Legal team to investigate the legalities of them selling the cards.


If there is some law I'm not aware of that makes Turbine's lottery here legal, they will have nothing to fear. If Woolworths believe they are being opened up to bad press and/or litigation, however, Turbine will lose a distributor that is quite important to them.

While you're at it, ask about Steam gift cards and Ultimate game cards. Both are redeemable for TP. Maybe Runescape gift cards too. If you really want to crusade against minors and gambling, that'd be a place to start.

[Qezuzu]

Actually it doesn't matter if it's real gambling or not. What matters is if there was ever a lawsuit in the US that went to court.

We're talking Aussies here. Gotta remind them to rigidly implement their laws.


Judging by the reactions from people on the forum I think it's likely safe to assume a jury would probably side with those who describe it as "gambling".Forumites are biased and would be thrown out as jurors.

[Missing_Minds]

While you're at it, ask about Steam gift cards and Ultimate game cards. Both are redeemable for TP. Maybe Runescape gift cards too. If you really want to crusade against minors and gambling, that'd be a place to start.
Fair is fair afterall, lets see how fair he really is.

[Postumus]

Just gave Woolworths (one of the big supermarkets in Australia and AFAICT the only stocker here of physical TP code cards) a call to ask them why they still sell TP cards to people under 18, given that they can be used as a way to enter an (apparently) unlicensed lottery. Their customer support team said they'd get their Gift Cards - Legal team to investigate the legalities of them selling the cards.


If there is some law I'm not aware of that makes Turbine's lottery here legal, they will have nothing to fear. If Woolworths believe they are being opened up to bad press and/or litigation, however, Turbine will lose a distributor that is quite important to them.


Are you going to come back to the forums and let everyone know you were wrong, and that all this hullaballoo was for nothing if Woolworth's actually calls you back and says its legal team has approved the sale of the cards?

[GeneFrenkle]

Forumites are biased and would be thrown out as jurors.
I was referring to them as a general sampling of the larger population.

[Deathdefy]

I bet Woolworths keep selling the cards, and I bet Turbine don't change anything.

That doesn't mean it's not against the law.

The problem is that legislation hasn't really caught up to micro-transaction MMO gambling and so the law is unclear.

Someone convince a state to prosecute and we'll find out what at least 1 court thinks.

If hypothetically every state with anti-online-gambling laws on the books simultaneously prosecuted Turbine, I'll bet different states would have different results though.

[Hutoth]

Is it possible to lose?

EDIT - another question:

I just re-read this thread, and I can't work out why this is an issue... Someone's even taken to citizen's direct action with a major retailer... over something where there is an ongoing semantic argument over whether or not it's gambling.

The implication is that gambling is axiomatically a bad thing. But actually that's beside the point. The main point is, why on earth are people upset about this? It's a "free prize" selected from a prize table via a dice roll. That is such a D&D way to randomly assign a prize. So people can spend astral shards on this stuff... do you honestly think we need the government to step in and protect us from it? Take a chill pill, please.

(Oh and about those Australian laws: I bet (swidt) that like so many vice laws around the world, they exist to protect vested interests. Everywhere you turn in Australia there's licensed gambling now. Since 2000, gambling machines have appeared basically everywhere)

[emptysands]

Again, I suspect they are not since you hold no proprietary rights in them... on the other hand, obviously they're 'of value' in a subjective sense of being enjoyed by people playing the game.


It's likely (*) that you do not "own" astral shards (AS), rather you purchase a license to use in-game items. As such, it probably could be argued that AS have no notional value.

Plus I don't see any way for you to turn AS back into cash.



(*) IMNAL, and you'd have to read the DDO terms and conditions.

[sirgog]

I bet Woolworths keep selling the cards, and I bet Turbine don't change anything.

That doesn't mean it's not against the law.

The problem is that legislation hasn't really caught up to micro-transaction MMO gambling and so the law is unclear.

Someone convince a state to prosecute and we'll find out what at least 1 court thinks.

If hypothetically every state with anti-online-gambling laws on the books simultaneously prosecuted Turbine, I'll bet different states would have different results though.

I expect the yellow text would be accurate.

The main reason I made the call is that DDO was a great game, but the present management are destroying it with the pay-to-cheat elements, the downright unscrupulous and unethical things like this slot machine, and the other 'haha, you made a misclick and it cost you real money' changes.

If a couple of suppliers stop selling TP cards, or if WB cops a few fines for skirting and/or breaking the law, then there's a chance for a change of management at DDO that might return to the proven and lasting revenue model of 'content, cosmetics and convenience'.

At present though, I do not trust Turbine as a company. I don't trust them to keep past promises, present ones or future ones, or to act ethically or within the law. And I certainly do not make credit card purchases from companies I do not trust.

[sirgog]

It's likely (*) that you do not "own" astral shards (AS), rather you purchase a license to use in-game items. As such, it probably could be argued that AS have no notional value.

Plus I don't see any way for you to turn AS back into cash.



(*) IMNAL, and you'd have to read the DDO terms and conditions.

That does not matter in Australia.

The question to ask is 'Is there any way to enter this lottery that costs real money exceeding the limits of a trade promotion', not 'what was the currency used to enter'.

After all, casinos need a licence to operate here and to take serious efforts to exclude under 18s, despite the fact that no casino in Australia accepts cash wagers - all wagers are in chips. This is the case even if you are entering a contest for a non-cash prize that cannot be converted into currency (such as a 'Win a Car' contest).

Hell, Mars Confectionary need a permit to run a promotion where one in six chocolate bars comes with a 'you won a free bar' message in the wrapper. Mars Bar wrappers are not legal tender anywhere, and Mars will not give you money under any circumstance for your prize wrapper.


Australians may wonder why premium SMSes to vote in reality TV shows cost 55c exactly (or it might be 60c) - it is because that is the cost of a postage stamp, the maximum legal price to charge to enter a trade promotion.

[Postumus]

The main reason I made the call is that DDO was a great game, but the present management are destroying it with the pay-to-cheat elements, the downright unscrupulous and unethical things like this slot machine, and the other 'haha, you made a misclick and it cost you real money' changes.




Well you sound like a true believer, and I've learned it's pointless to argue with those so... good luck with your crusade I guess.

[Forzah]

Raffles are legal to non profit organizations only.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raffle

[Hokiewa]

I'm amused at the massive amount of misinformation in this thread. Continue, please!

[Uma-Quixote]

This whole thread is hilarious.

Daily dice may or may not be gambling.

Some folk appear to object on the grounds that this is in some way pernicious, particularly if it can be played by minors, as if DD might become an entry level to hardcore gambling addiction.

However, no-one questions the idea of that same minor (or adult) playing ddo for 10,20,40 hours plus week, and spending X a month on the game to begin with.

[The10man]

If you double click, your first click was free, and the second cost you three shards. Did anyone else double click by mistake and get charged shards for something like a collectible : One Amber Vial?

Worst mechanic in the game. You can double click to spend real money, or I should say, shards that cost real money.

Please add a confirm window to any purchases that require shards to be spent, if that is buying gold seal hirelings or if it is gambling.



(Standard): You obtain an Amber Vial, and 4 Khyber Dragonshard Fragments.

(Standard): You rolled 37 on your Daily Dice and earned a Collectables prize!

This states it is my daily dice roll, but it charges me Astral Shards.

Since the shards are by in large only available for purchase with real money there needs to be a pop up box. I could see a kid clicking Dollars away without realizing it. Thank God my guildies warned me before I found it.

[Deathdefy]

I'm amused at the massive amount of misinformation in this thread. Continue, please!

Please bestow your wisdom upon this thread, oh knowledgeable one! Mock it not from high above.

[Hokiewa]

Please bestow your wisdom upon this thread, oh knowledgeable one! Mock it not from high above.

I prefer the mocking. Besides if actual truth were given, the entertainment would die. You don't want the entertainment to die do you?

Fun KILLER! :D

[hit_fido]

So the question you need to ask is the value ( turbine's preceived value) of you roll greater or equal to the cost for the roll? So is the reward you received worth 3 AS on the Silver Chest table or 15 AS on the Gold Chest table?

Taking this further, it's important to have an idea in mind of what your own perceived value is for 15 units of proxy money like Astral Shards. Personally, 5 cents (in US currency) per shard looks like a reasonable way to value a shard given a middle of the road spending habit for sale-priced Turbine Points, and the shard packages they're offering - but could be up to 8 cents if you buy off sales or in the smallest packages.

That means the real value judgement you should be making is:

"Is it worth 75 cents every time I click gold ROLL!" or perhaps at the higher end, "Is it worth $1.20 every time I click gold ROLL!".

I don't criticize people who visit Las Vegas and play slots responsibly with their disposable cash for the entertainment value, at least in that scenario (the last time I was there), you're still putting real pennies, dimes, quarters, dollars into the machine. So you know what's going in.

Make sure you know what's actually going into DDO when you click ROLL! - in terms of real world value, and not play money.

[jfgddo]

This is for all the people who never played the PnP version of D&D- The original PnP was all dice rolling. It was never considered gambling. If it bothers you so much then dont use the FREE roll for items. This is just my opinion.

[Forzah]

-- double post, can't delete it.

[Forzah]

This is for all the people who never played the PnP version of D&D- The original PnP was all dice rolling. It was never considered gambling. If it bothers you so much then dont use the FREE roll for items. This is just my opinion.

The daily dice is OK actually. It's the shard gambling that is shady, since you spend real money on gambling.

[HungarianRhapsody]

That does not matter in Australia.

The question to ask is 'Is there any way to enter this lottery that costs real money exceeding the limits of a trade promotion', not 'what was the currency used to enter'.

This is very interesting and it's quite different from the laws in the United States. Many sodas, etc. have contests where you can win prizes based on a random code that is printed on the bottle cap. Those contests are legal in the United States as long as it is "no purchase necessary to to enter" - i.e. you can write to the company to obtain a single entry chance without purchasing the product.

Do promotions like that exist in Australia? (Edit: I know you mentioned Mars bars, but I asked in particular because some of the prizes in those types of promotions are quite large (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepsi_Billion_Dollar_Sweepstakes) - more than a candy bar.)

[DeafeningWhisper]

The original PnP was all dice rolling.

You don't say?! (I which Memnir was here for the classic meme pic :))



It was never considered gambling.

Actually DnD was forbiden to many of my friends not for devil worship and what not but the fact it used dices which in many religions means it's automaticaly gambling, not saying it makes sense seen how these parents also forbids their kids from doing school raffles for the same reason but it is gambling to some.

[Chai]

Make sure you know what's actually going into DDO when you click ROLL! - in terms of real world value, and not play money.

This is the valid point I see in this thread. The only issue is that having to convert to different imaginary currencies multiple times with different multipliers associated with each convolutes the view so that some whose impulse takes over well before they understand the RL value of what they are doing will not know how much they are spending in RL equivilent. This is not illegal, however whether it makes it unethical or not is going to be different on a person by person basis.

[playa_eric]

ok...if turbine has the eggs to do it...they need to post PROOF that the random roll for that system is at least IDENTICAL to the random roll in game...what i mean by this, is why wouldnt the system we use to roll 100 on attack be good enough for a profit system like that...if they are the same at least i know my true probability to get a 100 roll and would actually be willing to do it...however i do not believe this is the case and until turbine can post and PROVE its the same roll system...it should be considered a direct attempt to scam it's own community...i want to compare ALL valid/relevant parts of BOTH scripts if they are not indeed the same...failure to provide this information should result in a lawsuit...there are reasons some software is mandated as open source in the mmo world.

just my pov

P.S. i spent some shards myself to test it out...got f---ed in the face with no lube...it is my belief they are using the UMD roll system of loaded against your pleasure :P

[Missing_Minds]

Pokemon CCG

Spend real money on the game.
Get real physical cards that you own.
A chance to get a rare card that has both in game and real world value.
Trading of cards seemingly supported judging by the supporting cartoon.
Directly marketed to children and older. Ages 5+.
Outside of the game, cards hold value to collectors.
Lawsuits in the US stating this is gambling have failed.

Is this gambling? Apparently per the US courts, no. Did Australia have better luck?

DDO Daily dice.

Spend real money on in game currency: Astral Shards. (AS)
*AS can be used on special in game hirelings, in game repair of equipment w/ bonus, Daily Dice rolls and upgrades.
*No backward conversion from AS to real world monies possible.
You do not own anything of the game.
*You have nothing physical of the game that you own, baring beginning retail box items.
*You may have the possibly of trading in game items for in game items. (Items may be bound to character or account which would prohibit such actions.)
*You could in theory trade for other goods/services or money out of game but that is out of capacities built into the game and not supported.
There is nothing truly rare/one of a kind in this game.
*As everything is digital, anything can be re created.
*This is not to mean there are not items that are hard to get.
*The most rare items are those gained via special events.
Trading to get items desired is supported in and out of game. (AH, ASAH, forums, trade channels.)
Marketed at teenagers and older (13+). (Per ESRB rating)
Outside of game, items hold no value.

Is this gambling compared to Pokemon CCG?

Obviously I think some people are running their own crusade, but that is my opinion. This is a matter for lawyers and courts to decide not us.

However, as I stated back on Lama, should people desire to press Turbine to get an update to their ESRB rating to include one of the following, I would be agreeable to such. If doing such ends up making Turbine need to get permits and the like, that only means lawyers have been doing their job. Go figure.
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp
Real Gambling - Player can gamble, including betting or wagering real cash or currency.
Simulated Gambling - Player can gamble without betting or wagering real cash or currency.

Also I would like the interface be refined as it IS way to easy to just keep rolling and never realize what you are doing.

[knightgf]

If people think that the DDO daily dice program has been looked over by the legal department of Turbine, I have my doubts it has. Why?

Back a few years ago, Turbine released a unique program called 'The Wall'. It was a offer wall where, if you complete certain real-life offers, you earn Turbine points. Unfortunately, what they did not realize was that these offers may have installed all sorts of Malware and harmful software on their computers, and not to mention also take their personal information. After they realized this, Turbine took down the wall in order to avoid getting sued from other people. Had they looked at the wall more closely, they may not have bothered putting it up in the first place.

Once again, I will say that for those who believe the DDO daily dice program to be illegal, don't use it. Just do not.

[gradeyshane]

We can buy shards, with real money to gamble with on the daily dice. Seems like it could be beyond the grey area and full on gambling to me. Real money with a game of chance. I think this could open up a whole can of bad worms for Turbine if someone with an addiction decides to bring a law suit. Even casinos have to publically warn people, run service adds and have age restrictions and must be located in areas that allow gambling and such.


Yep like when lil jonnie takes mom's card and runs up a couple thousand dollar bill playing online dice. S will hit the fan then rofl.

[gradeyshane]

If people think that the DDO daily dice program has been looked over by the legal department of Turbine, I have my doubts it has. Why?

Back a few years ago, Turbine released a unique program called 'The Wall'. It was a offer wall where, if you complete certain real-life offers, you earn Turbine points. Unfortunately, what they did not realize was that these offers may have installed all sorts of Malware and harmful software on their computers, and not to mention also take their personal information. After they realized this, Turbine took down the wall in order to avoid getting sued from other people. Had they looked at the wall more closely, they may not have bothered putting it up in the first place.

Once again, I will say that for those who believe the DDO daily dice program to be illegal, don't use it. Just do not.

Dont matter what we think, it matters what the feds think. And I assure you this is waaaay over in grey land.

[Failedlegend]

Just like everything else that is P2P in this game with a little patience and luck you can do it entirely F2P.

On the other hand if someone wants to blow 300$ on this I say more more power to them, if that more than they can afford that's their own **** fault, if its a kid using Daddy or Mommies C-Card thats the parents fault (Hint: Use Pre-Paid Credit Cards so once the kids allotted money is gone, it's gone)

Personally I will never pay to get Astral shards for the gold box (my money is better spent on adventure packs,classes,etc.) but I'll likely log on as often as possible to roll that silver box...guess what thats mission accomplished for Turbine.

In short I get free stuff every day including some DDO store stuff and Turbine gets my virtual butt online almost daily so we both win.

[Qezuzu]

Has anyone stopped to think that it's possible Turbine needs revenue and needs it now?


Yep like when lil jonnie takes mom's card and runs up a couple thousand dollar bill playing online dice. S will hit the fan then rofl.

At $1.30 per roll, thousands of dollars would require thousands of rolls. They'd run out of inventory/bankspace before then. At any rate, it would take a long time.

[Gkar]

At $1.30 per roll, thousands of dollars would require thousands of rolls. They'd run out of inventory/bankspace before then. At any rate, it would take a long time.

Yup. Not only that, they could spend it a lot faster by just buying TP and then store items.

[madmaxhunter]

At $1.30 per roll, thousands of dollars would require thousands of rolls. They'd run out of inventory/bankspace before then. At any rate, it would take a long time.



Guess you've never heard of the teens who accrue a $10,000 texting bill? :p

[Gkar]

That does not matter in Australia.

The question to ask is 'Is there any way to enter this lottery that costs real money exceeding the limits of a trade promotion', not 'what was the currency used to enter'.

After all, casinos need a licence to operate here and to take serious efforts to exclude under 18s, despite the fact that no casino in Australia accepts cash wagers - all wagers are in chips. This is the case even if you are entering a contest for a non-cash prize that cannot be converted into currency (such as a 'Win a Car' contest).

Hell, Mars Confectionary need a permit to run a promotion where one in six chocolate bars comes with a 'you won a free bar' message in the wrapper. Mars Bar wrappers are not legal tender anywhere, and Mars will not give you money under any circumstance for your prize wrapper.


The comparisons are very bad. The wagers are in chips, but the chips CAN be converted back to money, and thus they are currency in the same way that a cheque is money.

While you can't take the $ instead of a car in some win a car contests, you can still turn around and immediately sell the car for money, meaning that the lottery win in that case is still an item with a real $ FMV.

Even the chocolate bar, like the car, could theoretically be sold for real $ before you consume it, and thus has a real $ FMV.

AD have absolutely no way to be converted back into real currency. Thus, they have no real $ FMV, its not the same at all.

[Tenelai]

The comparisons are very bad. The wagers are in chips, but the chips CAN be converted back to money, and thus they are currency in the same way that a cheque is money.

While you can't take the $ instead of a car in some win a car contests, you can still turn around and immediately sell the car for money, meaning that the lottery win in that case is still an item with a real $ FMV.

Even the chocolate bar, like the car, could theoretically be sold for real $ before you consume it, and thus has a real $ FMV.

AD have absolutely no way to be converted back into real currency. Thus, they have no real $ FMV, its not the same at all.

And if the contest gives a non-transferable prize? e.g. win a free vacaction stay for yourself and x guests (prize may not be transferred), it suddenly becomes non gambling?

[Gkar]

And if the contest gives a non-transferable prize? e.g. win a free vacaction stay for yourself and x guests (prize may not be transferred), it suddenly becomes non gambling?

Where I live? Not if they asked you a "skill testing question", like what is 2x(5+2)

That would make it a promotional contest or a free giveaway, tax free to the receiver, and not a lottery.

Your results will of course differ by local laws.

[hit_fido]

Has anyone stopped to think that it's possible Turbine needs revenue and needs it now?.

Yes, but if that were the case we'd have seen time invested toward immediate cash flow generators like extra bank or inventory space (almost guaranteed high dollar and high volume sales) or more ottos boxes, or maybe finally just the **** xp stone.

Instead what we see is a somewhat orchestrated shift (regardless of how poorly you think it was executed) toward a shard driven transaction system/economy. The things they've introduced and will likely continue to introduce are setting the groundwork for that to occur while adding small but incremental sources of revenue. For me it's actually an indication of long term planning and long term forecasting, because it takes some time for this stuff to be integrated, and eventually adopted by the player base. You don't make *large and immediate* income off selling 50 cent augments one at a time or taking 30% of a 75 cent auction house transaction, but over the long term those small transactions could really add up.

[Gkar]

Guess you've never heard of the teens who accrue a $10,000 texting bill? :p

That's because the kids just keep texting and the bill goes up.

AS doesn't work that way. They can only spend what you have already bought, unless they then go to the store and buy more AS. It can't be done by accident. And if the kid is going to do that, they could be buying all sorts of expensive **** in the store already.

Now I've always thought you should have to reenter your CC info to access the store, but that's a different issue. There is nothing intrinsically "worse" about the AS situation than it was for any other store item.

[chrisdinus7]

That does not matter in Australia.

The question to ask is 'Is there any way to enter this lottery that costs real money exceeding the limits of a trade promotion', not 'what was the currency used to enter'.

After all, casinos need a licence to operate here and to take serious efforts to exclude under 18s, despite the fact that no casino in Australia accepts cash wagers - all wagers are in chips. This is the case even if you are entering a contest for a non-cash prize that cannot be converted into currency (such as a 'Win a Car' contest).

Hell, Mars Confectionary need a permit to run a promotion where one in six chocolate bars comes with a 'you won a free bar' message in the wrapper. Mars Bar wrappers are not legal tender anywhere, and Mars will not give you money under any circumstance for your prize wrapper.


Australians may wonder why premium SMSes to vote in reality TV shows cost 55c exactly (or it might be 60c) - it is because that is the cost of a postage stamp, the maximum legal price to charge to enter a trade promotion.

Funny, the Australian Government seems to disagree with you. In their final report on their 2012 review of the Interactive Gambling Act of 2001, found here: http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/162277/Final_Report_-_Review_of_the_Interactive_Gambling_Act_2001.pdf, they specifically analyze Runescape's spin wheel which allows you to purchase additional spins for real money, on page 140 on the heading "Games played with virtual currency". They conclude that it is not barred by the act, and is legal.

I suppose, if you are convinced they made a mistake, you could contact the Ombudsman and request a review. But otherwise, you are clearly wrong.

[gradeyshane]

Has anyone stopped to think that it's possible Turbine needs revenue and needs it now?



At $1.30 per roll, thousands of dollars would require thousands of rolls. They'd run out of inventory/bankspace before then. At any rate, it would take a long time.

You dont have kids do you?

But, if jonnie cant keep spinning he needs more crystals. Where do you get crystals to feed jonnies newfound addiction? Why mommy's card of course!

Well done Jonnie. Well done.

[Kilbar]

If people think that the DDO daily dice program has been looked over by the legal department of Turbine, I have my doubts it has. Why?

Back a few years ago, Turbine released a unique program called 'The Wall'. It was a offer wall where, if you complete certain real-life offers, you earn Turbine points. Unfortunately, what they did not realize was that these offers may have installed all sorts of Malware and harmful software on their computers, and not to mention also take their personal information. After they realized this, Turbine took down the wall in order to avoid getting sued from other people. Had they looked at the wall more closely, they may not have bothered putting it up in the first place.

Once again, I will say that for those who believe the DDO daily dice program to be illegal, don't use it. Just do not.

A few years ago Turbine wasn't owned by the Bunny and didn't have the Bunny's legal department to rely on for this sort of thing. Now it does.

[gradeyshane]

Kinda reminds me of how you can buy a "date" with "flowers" that you "purchase" from some websites. No its not prositution, its dates for "flowers".

wink wink

[Gkar]

Kinda reminds me of how you can buy a "date" with "flowers" that you "purchase" from some websites. No its not prositution, its dates for "flowers".

wink wink

Really? That's funny. Should I ask how you know about this? :cool:

[Hendrik]

Funny, the Australian Government seems to disagree with you. In their final report on their 2012 review of the Interactive Gambling Act of 2001, found here: http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/162277/Final_Report_-_Review_of_the_Interactive_Gambling_Act_2001.pdf, they specifically analyze Runescape's spin wheel which allows you to purchase additional spins for real money, on page 140 on the heading "Games played with virtual currency". They conclude that it is not barred by the act, and is legal.

I suppose, if you are convinced they made a mistake, you could contact the Ombudsman and request a review. But otherwise, you are clearly wrong.

My previous quotation of the Gambling Act in reguard to his claims went ignored.

Expect the same.

[Postumus]

You dont have kids do you?

But, if jonnie cant keep spinning he needs more crystals. Where do you get crystals to feed jonnies newfound addiction? Why mommy's card of course!

Well done Jonnie. Well done.


Not if mommy was smart enough to give Johnny a TP card/code instead of her credit card when he set up his account. Turbine is not a nannybot.

[Hendrik]

You dont have kids do you?

But, if jonnie cant keep spinning he needs more crystals. Where do you get crystals to feed jonnies newfound addiction? Why mommy's card of course!

Well done Jonnie. Well done.

SO, is he going to lie to his partents or tell them the truth as to why he wants to use the CC? Is he going to take it without permission? Intercept the mail to get the bill and avoid getting caught?

Hyperbole is fun, isn't it?

[Mikula]

Lets talk about something else that should be considered gambling and outlawed but isn't. The Claw Crane or Crane game.

But that is a game of skill not chance, you might say. Heh yeah right, the way those things are programmed they pinch down with varying degrees of strength, purposely slip on the way back to the machine only giving you an actual chance to win every Nth play where N is programmed by the machines particular owner. How are these things not illegal? Well it is because of the value of the things you have a chance to win. Lets look at the dice game. I can not see anything available to win in either silver or gold I would consider more expensive than the **** I see in a crane game.

In all reality the daily dice gives you better odds than the crane game. Daily dice you win 100% of the time the only thing that varies is what sort of junk you get.

[Vellrad]

You dont have kids do you?

But, if jonnie cant keep spinning he needs more crystals. Where do you get crystals to feed jonnies newfound addiction? Why mommy's card of course!

Well done Jonnie. Well done.

Some people shouldn't have children.
People who can't explain how money works, and can't secure their credit cards are prime example.

[Missing_Minds]

You dont have kids do you?

But, if jonnie cant keep spinning he needs more crystals. Where do you get crystals to feed jonnies newfound addiction? Why mommy's card of course!

Well done Jonnie. Well done.

And you know what the Aussie government said? Parents need to be more responsible.

"Further education and awareness for parents on these issues is warranted, and the need for greater diligence by parents in checking credit card or online payment records and their children’s online activities more generally. In addition, parents can choose to voluntarily block access to websites and services they feel are inappropriate for their children using approved family-friendly filters, or by disabling in-app purchases for gambling-like applications."

[Hokiewa]

Funny, the Australian Government seems to disagree with you. In their final report on their 2012 review of the Interactive Gambling Act of 2001, found here: http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/162277/Final_Report_-_Review_of_the_Interactive_Gambling_Act_2001.pdf, they specifically analyze Runescape's spin wheel which allows you to purchase additional spins for real money, on page 140 on the heading "Games played with virtual currency". They conclude that it is not barred by the act, and is legal.

I suppose, if you are convinced they made a mistake, you could contact the Ombudsman and request a review. But otherwise, you are clearly wrong.

Entertainment killer Entertainment killer!

Fun ruiner boo!

[gradeyshane]

Really? That's funny. Should I ask how you know about this? :cool:

Hheh how could you grow to adulthood in the internet age and not know?

[Chai]

Has anyone stopped to think that it's possible Turbine needs revenue and needs it now?

Tell that to the "this is Turbines best year yet, they are swimming in money" crowd. :p


At $1.30 per roll, thousands of dollars would require thousands of rolls. They'd run out of inventory/bankspace before then. At any rate, it would take a long time.

Right, but at one screw up per person accross thousands of people could net the same thing, in far less time, like last night for instance.

I wonder how many people read the directions before they started mashing the button?

[gradeyshane]

SO, is he going to lie to his partents or tell them the truth as to why he wants to use the CC? Is he going to take it without permission? Intercept the mail to get the bill and avoid getting caught?

Hyperbole is fun, isn't it?

Hyperbole is great, my point is that its kinda stupid to give children access to a real money gambling system and not expect any issues. Sure lets be real, its not a big deal to me. I told my kids i'd bust their butts if I catch them doing anything but the freebies. But there are others who's children may be at an older stage and you dont get through to those kids quite as well as you do pre-teen. So they'll do *** ever they wnt to do until they are caught.

And to the point of securing cards....maybe im doing somethign wrong, but the DDO store doesnt even ask me for my information. Does it you? How do you secure your card smarty pants?

[gradeyshane]

And you know what the Aussie government said? Parents need to be more responsible.

"Further education and awareness for parents on these issues is warranted, and the need for greater diligence by parents in checking credit card or online payment records and their children’s online activities more generally. In addition, parents can choose to voluntarily block access to websites and services they feel are inappropriate for their children using approved family-friendly filters, or by disabling in-app purchases for gambling-like applications."

So you give the game a pass, thats great. I think its irresponsible for the game to put gambling with money in as an option. If this was an adult site, yes by all means, but this game is marketed toward children as much as anything. And now kidos can gamble away.

The only responsible thing to do is to block access to the website and services. So that means no more DDO for those under 18. Because lets be real, if you are a VIP subscriber then you get to add points at your leisure. That takes the parent out of the loop of blocking access...so the mechanics in place dont allow for supervision and by default are not sufficient for access to be allowed to minors.

Just one more reason im doing the right thing and dropping my vip subs.

Makes it easier to explain to the kids why they cant play DDO anymore..the game is broke.

[Hokiewa]

So you give the game a pass, thats great. I think its irresponsible for the game to put gambling with money in as an option. If this was an adult site, yes by all means, but this game is marketed toward children as much as anything. And now kidos can gamble away.

The only responsible thing to do is to block access to the website and services. So that means no more DDO for those under 18 according to the one missing his f'ing mind.

Mind blowing. I agree, evil corporations should shoulder the entire blame. Kids don't need parents, and clearly some parents don't have any sense of personal responsiblity

[Postumus]

So you give the game a pass, thats great. I think its irresponsible for the game to put gambling with money in as an option. If this was an adult site, yes by all means, but this game is marketed toward children as much as anything. And now kidos can gamble away.

The only responsible thing to do is to block access to the website and services. So that means no more DDO for those under 18 according to the one missing his f'ing mind.

How do the kids cash out their 'winnings?' How is the daily dice roll any different than buying a pack of cards from Magic the Gathering Online and not knowing which rares will be in the pack?

[Chai]

So you give the game a pass, thats great. I think its irresponsible for the game to put gambling with money in as an option. If this was an adult site, yes by all means, but this game is marketed toward children as much as anything. And now kidos can gamble away.

The only responsible thing to do is to block access to the website and services. So that means no more DDO for those under 18 according to the one missing his f'ing mind.

The game is rated T for teen. If a parent of a 13 year old put a CC on an account even before the daily dice, that kid could still drain money out of the parents CC by buying stacks and stacks of points, which is what they have to do anyway in order to continue "gambling" by using RL money to fuel the ante for the rolls. So if the kid was able to do buy stacks of points in the past if the parent allowed them to use their CC on the account, why did it only become such an issue on the forums recently? Where were the riots on this in 2009?

I dont give the game a free pass, but I would rather the parents take responsibility rather than act like the company should be responsible for kids getting into their parents finances.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Mind blowing. I agree, evil corporations should shoulder the entire blame. Kids don't need parents, and clearly some parents don't have any sense of personal responsiblity

Silly argument. Parents having responsibility doesn't preclude corporations from having responsibility as well.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Some people shouldn't have children.
People who can't explain how money works, and can't secure their credit cards are prime example.

This!
+1 to you

I don't really see how people can say "Kids can spend real money here" is a problem...

Kids can already spend real money on the game. And just like any game, it's a parent's responsibility to ensure the kid doesn't misuse the game. If your kid went through all his/her astral shards playing the dice roll, then the solution is simple, no more shards. Hell, no DDO for a while. Kids need to know the consequences of their actions.

[gradeyshane]

Because when a child buys a package of cards, they do so with a real understanding of the transaction (ie you take it to the counter, they take your money and you go about your business). When a child gets DDO poitns to buy more rolls they really dont understand what they are doing. They log in, there is a roller, they roll..they are told they need more crystals to keep rolling...but you can get those by clicking here <o>

Then they go and with magic money buy more crystals.

But wait...i dont have enough points for more crystals. Ahhhh look, you can get more points by clicking here <o>.

Now more magic money to keep playing the game.

Im done with the discussion, I think its a VERY stupid thing to add to the game and is indicative of a much larger issue that i've been on the other side of the fence for a long time over.

But really, the only reason I come to the boards is to pass time at work...not work out the issues with the game so in truth Im just here blowing wind and passing the day so dont read so much into it....but....really really a low point for DDO imo.

Hell I cant log on anyway since the weekend...my ISP has decided that they are getting a response not expected from DDO (HTTP error 417). I spent a day messing with it and just threw in the towel. Added to all the other little things adding up over time and I think its a sign :)

[Hokiewa]

Silly argument. Parents having responsibility doesn't preclude corporations from having responsibility as well.

Of course its a silly arguement. Children can't legally have a credit card, thus a parent provides it to them. That's not a company's fault. This happens all the time, Turbine is hardly the first to implement something like this. In the end, regardless of how you interpret a company's motives, the parent is the first and last line of responsibility for their children's actions

Growing up, a neighbor's kid loved the Gold Box SSI games. This is pre-internet. However, he wasn't super bright when it came to solving puzzles in the games. His dad let him call a hint line (back in the days of 900 hint lines) to figure it out. Guess what...A $3000 phone bill....Dad wasn't super bright in being responsible for his son.

[Kalari]

As someone who has partake d in gambling and other non moral activities I cannot agree with labeling this as "Gambling"

Does it have issues? Sure just like fools who spend too much on TP when they should be paying their bills, this new "Feature" will probably lead to some issues..

Should they put a warning? Well even Nintendo warns their players not to sit on their asses all damned day playing video games (though they word it so polite I <3 them) But I honestly don't see this company doing this because they probably figure its a win for them to get a few suckers who have issues throwing money at games to keep buying and rolling...

Buying and Rolling, Rolling and buying lol now this is stuck in my head x_x

[Missing_Minds]

So you give the game a pass, thats great. I think its irresponsible for the game to put gambling with money in as an option. If this was an adult site, yes by all means, but this game is marketed toward children as much as anything. And now kidos can gamble away.
Per Aussie law again, Turbine is not breaking any laws.

However, if your moral compass is as such, by all means leave. You have to do what you have to do.


Makes it easier to explain to the kids why they cant play DDO anymore..the game is broke.
That would be lying to your children. Now granted, I've no idea how old they are but that is something I normally do not condone.

[Missing_Minds]

Silly argument. Parents having responsibility doesn't preclude corporations from having responsibility as well.
Corporations have legal responsibilities, as of which, does not include parenting children. That is the responsibility of *gasp* parents.

[gradeyshane]

silly argument. Parents having responsibility doesn't preclude corporations from having responsibility as well.

+1

[Chai]

Of course its a silly arguement. Children can't legally have a credit card, thus a parent provides it to them. That's not a company's fault. This happens all the time, Turbine is hardly the first to implement something like this. In the end, regardless of how you interpret a company's motives, the parent is the first and last line of responsibility for their children's actions

Growing up, a neighbor's kid loved the Gold Box SSI games. This is pre-internet. However, he wasn't super bright when it came to solving puzzles in the games. His dad let him call a hint line (back in the days of 900 hint lines) to figure it out. Guess what...A $3000 phone bill....Dad wasn't super bright in being responsible for his son.

Maybe, maybe not. I personally agree that parents should be the first and last responsible, but a judge did let that Apple case go to trial where a man's 9 year old daughter ran up a bill buying consumibles in an app game, and it didnt go so well for Apple, who in fact chose to settle out of court. Anyone whose children ran up a bill for more than 30 dollars were paid back in cash.

The hilarity? Parents making a claim must prove that their child made the purchase without parents knowledge, and the parent did not provide the password to the child to play the game.

[Hokiewa]

Maybe, maybe not. I personally agree that parents should be the first and last responsible, but a judge did let that Apple case go to trial where a man's 9 year old daughter ran up a bill buying consumibles in an app game, and it didnt go so well for Apple, who in fact chose to settle out of court. Anyone whose children ran up a bill for more than 30 dollars were paid back in cash.

Personally, I disagree with that decision. Today, it happens far too often that parents are not held accountable when clearly they should

[HungarianRhapsody]

Of course its a silly arguement. Children can't legally have a credit card, thus a parent provides it to them. That's not a company's fault. This happens all the time, Turbine is hardly the first to implement something like this. In the end, regardless of how you interpret a company's motives, the parent is the first and last line of responsibility for their children's actions

Growing up, a neighbor's kid loved the Gold Box SSI games. This is pre-internet. However, he wasn't super bright when it came to solving puzzles in the games. His dad let him call a hint line (back in the days of 900 hint lines) to figure it out. Guess what...A $3000 phone bill....Dad wasn't super bright in being responsible for his son.

Turbine also makes it exceptionally difficult to play without having an active credit card attached to the current account for "quick and easy" purchases by whoever happens to be logged in on that account.

It's entirely possible for Turbine to build in some protections for people who *don't* want those purchases to be so quick and easy. But they've chosen to go out of their way to make it difficult to do so (and impossible as far as I can tell for VIPs).

I had to go out and buy a disposable credit card because the customer service rep at Turbine refused to disassociate my live credit card from the account. He even told me that "it would be fine, you don't have to worry about purchases because you have a password".

[Missing_Minds]

Because when a child buys a package of cards, they do so with a real understanding of the transaction (ie you take it to the counter, they take your money and you go about your business). When a child gets DDO poitns to buy more rolls they really dont understand what they are doing. They log in, there is a roller, they roll..they are told they need more crystals to keep rolling...but you can get those by clicking here <o>
And how is this any different from that same child, in your example, going "oh darnit.. out of healing pots. I'll go buy them from the store by clicking here <o>."

However, as stated earlier, the interface needs refinement to be more clear how the rolls are being done.

Back before F2P, we had a guildy's who son played on his account. The rest of us actively encouraged the son to buy and stock up on pots and use them in game. Both father and son got a lesson in in game money management. *snicker*

[gradeyshane]

Per Aussie law again, Turbine is not breaking any laws.

However, if your moral compass is as such, by all means leave. You have to do what you have to do.


That would be lying to your children. Now granted, I've no idea how old they are but that is something I normally do not condone.

Well I aint no stinking Aussie so you can shove Aussie laws...here in God's country we dont give a rats about no Aussie and their silly rules. Here in God's country we dont let our chirren play devil worshipping gambler games. No we do not!

Aussie law...rof lmfao at Aussie law.

[Kilbar]

I think the real problem parents are having isn't that Turbine is being irresponsible (it isn't) it's that now they have to do some actual parenting while their kids are playing the game. I still remember being a touch aghast at hearing more than a few people openly admitting to forcing their children to do all the mind-numbing clicking required to get fully upgrade Crystal Cove items during that event. If that's the way you treat your children, it'd serve you right if they pirated your card!

[gradeyshane]

And how is this any different from that same child, in your example, going "oh darnit.. out of healing pots. I'll go buy them from the store by clicking here <o>."

However, as stated earlier, the interface needs refinement to be more clear how the rolls are being done.

Back before F2P, we had a guildy's who son played on his account. The rest of us actively encouraged the son to buy and stock up on pots and use them in game. Both father and son got a lesson in in game money management. *snicker*

Yep with pals like you around....

[madmaxhunter]

Corporations have legal responsibilities, as of which, does not include parenting children. That is the responsibility of *gasp* parents.

That's funny, I have great children, they are smart and well behaved... they still make bone-headed mistakes, guess I'm irresponsible?

[HungarianRhapsody]

Corporations have legal responsibilities, as of which, does not include parenting children. That is the responsibility of *gasp* parents.

Parenting children is the responsibility of parents.

Providing a tool to make sure that its customers really are its customers is a responsibility of the company. Turbine put deliberate effort toward making it difficult to prevent unauthorized purchases. That's a deliberate, willful failure on their part.

[Missing_Minds]

Well I aint no stinking Aussie so you can shove Aussie laws...here in God's country we dont give a rats about no Aussie and their silly rules. Here in God's country we dont let our chirren play devil worshipping gambler games. No we do not!

Aussie law...rof lmfao at Aussie law.

So you live in the Antarctic. Got it.

[gradeyshane]

Maybe, maybe not. I personally agree that parents should be the first and last responsible, but a judge did let that Apple case go to trial where a man's 9 year old daughter ran up a bill buying consumibles in an app game, and it didnt go so well for Apple, who in fact chose to settle out of court. Anyone whose children ran up a bill for more than 30 dollars were paid back in cash.

The hilarity? Parents making a claim must prove that their child made the purchase without parents knowledge, and the parent did not provide the password to the child to play the game.

Thats how laws work in Amuricah.

[chrisdinus7]

Maybe, maybe not. I personally agree that parents should be the first and last responsible, but a judge did let that Apple case go to trial where a man's 9 year old daughter ran up a bill buying consumibles in an app game, and it didnt go so well for Apple, who in fact chose to settle out of court. Anyone whose children ran up a bill for more than 30 dollars were paid back in cash.

The settlement in question, however, requires that those seeking a refund to attest that they did not give the minor who made the purchase their Apple password. See http://gigaom.com/2013/02/25/apple-settles-lawsuit-over-apps-aimed-at-kids-will-pay-5-itunes-credit-or-cash/. So, not quite on point to this, unless you are envisioning a case where the minor uses their parent's account to play the daily dice without knowing the parent's password.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Back before F2P, we had a guildy's who son played on his account. The rest of us actively encouraged the son to buy and stock up on pots and use them in game. Both father and son got a lesson in in game money management. *snicker*

Congratulations on becoming the parent of that guildy and his son. Because parenting is the responsibility of parents and you decided to take on that responsibility for yourself, you must obviously be their parent, right?

Or did you just decide that griefing a guildy was more fun than actually being responsible yourself?

[Missing_Minds]

That's funny, I have great children, they are smart and well behaved... they still make bone-headed mistakes, guess I'm irresponsible?
1. Only if you think you are irresponsible as I know absolutely nothing about you or your family, nor do I care to know.
2. Children are human, the same as you or I. We make mistakes and hopefully learn from them so as to not repeat them.
3. Do you feel better for a trolling post?

[Kalari]

I have a kid a kid who at 8 now games, I have instructed him not to hit the "add coins or gems" but I also password my account, and when he eventually plays ddo he will have an account that is in no way tied to my credit card info.

Just because we are gamer parents doesn't mean we have to be dumbasses just saying.

[FestusHood]

Ah, but the lock boxes there (and CO) there the ONLY way to get some costume parts/ships.

So you had to literately pay to gamble at a chance to get a rare item.

And you know... as much as I HATE to say it. It is perfectly legal and that sort of thing has been happening in the US for ages. I just thought of an analogy to those lockboxes that is pretty tight.

Collectable Cards. Be it MtG, flavor of the month, Baseball, Pokemon.... Each lockbox is like a Card expansion pack. The chance of a rare card is always there, will you be lucky? I know of no country at all that has declared those illegal and those are directed at kids.

And now that I've rolled the dice, I stand with those 100% that state the interface needs to be refined to protect against constant rollings when you must pay up shards. There should be a confirmation about spending shards.
But I do not find the dice to be gambling at all in the form of legalese that could make it illegal.

By George, i think you've hit the nail on the head here. This seems to be quite exactly the same thing. Except in the case of the cards, It would be much more obviously gambling, since you do in fact directly pay cash for them, and few people would deny that these cards do, in fact have a real (and variable) cash value.

So, can you buy baseball cards in Australia?

[Missing_Minds]

Congratulations on becoming the parent of that guildy and his son. Because parenting is the responsibility of parents and you decided to take on that responsibility for yourself, you must obviously be their parent, right?

Or did you just decide that griefing a guildy was more fun than actually being responsible yourself?
Given the fact that guildy eventually tried to usurp the guild, and labeled himself as "the savior of DDO" I'll let you decide what little you can about his own parenting skills.

As for parenting? Hardly. The son was low on health and asked what could be done about such. We answered. He took it upon himself to always buy more pots and restock often. The rest of us more experienced gamers knew the cost, and just asked if he was stocked and good to go.

[gradeyshane]

Yeah true that Kal, mine are 8 and 11 that play DDO. I sat them both down and explained the DDO store a while back..other than a couple times of them buying the cosmetic pets we had no issues (I guess they didnt realize that I get an email when they use points). And on this one, we had another discussion about it....just dont click play at all. Just leave the whole dice thing alone. Again, I dont expect to have any issues. I have great kids who are well behaved. Im very lucky. Luckier than most folks....I feel bad for those who arent as lucky as I am.

[sebastianosmith]

Our 10 year old daughter wanted to play DDO with me and my wife. We set up an account for her and put $20 worth of TP on it using PayPal to which she has no access. We told her she could use those points as she wished. She spent it on armor kits and pets in a few days. Then she didn't have any more points and we informed her that if she wanted more she could use her allowance to purchase them. That was the end of her DDO experience.

Moral of this story? Kids don't want to gamble. They want cool armor, pets and watching their character get killed in silly ways (she had such fun with that). Oh, and one more thing: PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT YOUR KIDS ARE DOING ONLINE! That's kind of an important part of the whole having kids experience.

[Kilbar]

Parenting children is the responsibility of parents.

Providing a tool to make sure that its customers really are its customers is a responsibility of the company. Turbine put deliberate effort toward making it difficult to prevent unauthorized purchases. That's a deliberate, willful failure on their part.

I've played five MMOs with a cash shop. DDO, DCUO, Champions Online, The Secret World, and City of Heroes. Every single one of them has largely the same system in place for cash shop purchases. It's designed to be quick, efficient, and to make it unnecessary to drag out your credit card every time you want to buy something. By necessity and limitation of technology, there is no ability to make sure the person making the purchase is the thirty-five year old owner of the card or the twelve year old son of the card holder.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Given the fact that guildy eventually tried to usurp the guild, and labeled himself as "the savior of DDO" I'll let you decide what little you can about his own parenting skills.

As for parenting? Hardly. He was low on health and asked what could be done about such. We answered. He took it upon himself to always buy more pots and restock often. The rest of us more experienced gamers knew the cost, and just asked if he was stocked and good to go.

You knew the cost and you encouraged him to do something that you knew was a bad idea even though you knew that he didn't know the cost. To "teach him a lesson". Right. We all know that "because it was funny to you" was the lesson that you thought he should learn.

And choosing to usurp a guild determines someone's ability as a parent?


Are you even reading what you're typing here?

[madmaxhunter]

1. Only if you think you are irresponsible as I know absolutely nothing about you or your family, nor do I care to know.
2. Children are human, the same as you or I. We make mistakes and hopefully learn from them so as to not repeat them.
3. Do you feel better for a trolling post?

Replying to a "parents responsibility" is a trolling post? If that were the case, I guess you would be the pot calling the kettle black, eh?

[Kalari]

Yeah true that Kal, mine are 8 and 11 that play DDO. I sat them both down and explained the DDO store a while back..other than a couple times of them buying the cosmetic pets we had no issues (I guess they didnt realize that I get an email when they use points). And on this one, we had another discussion about it....just dont click play at all. Just leave the whole dice thing alone. Again, I dont expect to have any issues. I have great kids who are well behaved. Im very lucky. Luckier than most folks....I feel bad for those who arent as lucky as I am.

Yep I get the issue, I just feel it will be a lot more grown folks who already had issues that this new "Feature" will affect. Most of us parents have a better handle on our younguns then to worry about that.

Id be more worried about myself getting hooked on this game (not likely never been a dice gal could go back to the hood for that ****) then my kid though. The "Feature" itself bugs me because there is still a **** ton of stuff that could be added to this game to make them money and this is added instead. /sigh

[kingfisher]

Just because we are gamer parents doesn't mean we have to be dumbasses just saying.

haha ofc it does

[Missing_Minds]

Are you even reading what you're typing here?
Yeap, and you've proven you are only hearing what you want without any actual thinking.


Replying to a "parents responsibility" is a trolling post? If that were the case, I guess you would be the pot calling the kettle black, eh?
Replying as you did is a trolling post as it serves no purpose but to attack a person.

[Hendrik]

Hyperbole is great, my point is that its kinda stupid to give children access to a real money gambling system and not expect any issues. Sure lets be real, its not a big deal to me. I told my kids i'd bust their butts if I catch them doing anything but the freebies. But there are others who's children may be at an older stage and you dont get through to those kids quite as well as you do pre-teen. So they'll do *** ever they wnt to do until they are caught.

And to the point of securing cards....maybe im doing somethign wrong, but the DDO store doesnt even ask me for my information. Does it you? How do you secure your card smarty pants?

If you knew me, you would know I don't wear pants.

And I am smart enough to not give access to my cards to anyone but me.

Now if a parent wishes to place a childs account on the adults CC, the adult is responsible for its use or abuse. Personally, with the store and the way it was setup at it's current time, and if I felt I could not trust my child to be responsible I would consider a pre-paid card and eliminate any future worry.

But that would be an easy solution and we cannot have that can we?

;)

[Hendrik]

That's funny, I have great children, they are smart and well behaved... they still make bone-headed mistakes, guess I'm irresponsible?

Just human.

;)

[gradeyshane]

If you knew me, you would know I don't wear pants.

And I am smart enough to not give access to my cards to anyone but me.

Now if a parent wishes to place a childs account on the adults CC, the adult is responsible for its use or abuse. Personally, with the store and the way it was setup at it's current time, and if I felt I could not trust my child to be responsible I would consider a pre-paid card and eliminate any future worry.

But that would be an easy solution and we cannot have that can we?

;)

Cone on man...thats hardly an easy solution. The easy solution is cut them off from the game. It was easy to make and the right thing to do. Thanks DDO! :)

[Vellrad]

How do you secure your card smarty pants?

Not giving it to anyone works for me.
If its not enough; if anyone's kid want to steal their CC, pseudogambling in DDO is the least of their problem.

[Hokiewa]

Cone on man...thats hardly an easy solution. The easy solution is cut them off from the game. It was easy to make and the right thing to do. Thanks DDO! :)

Just make sure you are honest as to the reason why. Otherwise, you have accomplished nothing

[gradeyshane]

Not giving it to anyone works for me.
If its not enough; if anyone's kid want to steal their CC, pseudogambling in DDO is the least of their problem.

It never asks me for my card info when I buy new points. Does it yours? Am I special?

[gradeyshane]

Just make sure you are honest as to the reason why. Otherwise, you have accomplished nothing

Nah TBH I really have the redest arse because I seem to have contracted an uncurable case of the HTTP 417 errors with Comcast and DDO. So when I say to the chirren..."kids, Al Gore broke DDO." They'll know I'm dead serious.

[Hendrik]

It never asks me for my card info when I buy new points. Does it yours? Am I special?

Could it be that it is tied to the CC on file for billing?

Why would it ask you for info that it already has???

[gradeyshane]

Exactly, which is what I keep trying to say to the "gasp how does your child have access to your card...#irresponsible" crowd who keep chiming in.

[Hendrik]

Exactly, which is what I keep trying to say to the "gasp how does your child have access to your card...#irresponsible" crowd who keep chiming in.

Then use any one of the other ways to pay for an account, one I mentioned above. To that, it was countered with just cut them off to DDO.

Remember?

[gradeyshane]

Dude there are just so many things you dont get and I dont care to explain it so we'll leave that as it is. If you think the system is acceptable then that is wonderful. Your opinion is duly noted. I disagree but its whatever.

But I will say again....the reason we are cut off is because the game wont work. I'm not spending another day on the phone with comcast to try to explain what an HTTP 417 is.

But if it DID work for me when I got home today...I'd probably log in and play. And keep checking my emails for any new purchases and deal with it if it happens. And then come here tomorrow and raise hell about how things are horrible (but only complain about those things that I MYSELF detest...whatever anyone else thinks I could care less about).

Or, maybe I'll play some Anarchy Online a while..its fun being a noob on a new game. Then when the shiney wears off play DDO some more. Maybe. Unless they **** me off and I decide its time to quit for the week. Or day.

Its MY DAMNED RAGE AND I"LL VENT IT HOW I SEE FIT.

Anyone have anything else to post that I can disrgard and answer as I feel necessary? Please remember, your opinions mean **** to me (i've learned this well hehe).

[GermanicusMaximus]

Back before F2P, we had a guildy's who son played on his account. The rest of us actively encouraged the son to buy and stock up on pots and use them in game. Both father and son got a lesson in in game money management. *snicker*

Its pretty amazing that you would brag about doing such a thing.

On the internet, its often difficult to gauge who some people actually are. Thanks for making it abundantly clear what kind of person you are.

[Jay203]

meh, it's a free raffle ticket everyday with option to buy more tickets

[Missing_Minds]

Its pretty amazing that you would brag about doing such a thing.

On the internet, its often difficult to gauge who some people actually are. Thanks for making it abundantly clear what kind of person you are.
I also keep an eye on stuff my friends would love and send them links. I'm such a bad person spending their money for them while they get something they want, and I get nothing in return other than the look of satisfaction that they got a new shiny and the realization dawn on them on what they just spent.

All because I don't force them, but instead show them what exists and they go from there. True in both cases. I could no more force the kid to spend his dad's plat then I could make my friends use their CC to buy stuff they wanted.

Also in that vein, I also don't invite other people to a different playground to be ambushed by many because you couldn't handle yourself on neutral territory. So as you said, "Thanks for making it abundantly clear what kind of person you are."

[Postumus]

Also in that vein, I also don't invite other people to a different playground to be ambushed by many because you couldn't handle yourself on neutral territory. So as you said, "Thanks for making it abundantly clear what kind of person you are."

I think 'ambush' is a bit strong, don't you?

It's more like an... um... darn it! What's that word for when a prisoner on trial invites the district attorney to change the venue to the prison shower, so the accused and the DA can settle the case mano-a-mano, but are also surrounded by five of the prisoner's buddies holding shivs? It's right on the tip of my tongue...

[HungarianRhapsody]

on neutral territory.

This is the funniest part of the post.

[Deathdefy]

Funny, the Australian Government seems to disagree with you. In their final report on their 2012 review of the Interactive Gambling Act of 2001, found here: http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/162277/Final_Report_-_Review_of_the_Interactive_Gambling_Act_2001.pdf, they specifically analyze Runescape's spin wheel which allows you to purchase additional spins for real money, on page 140 on the heading "Games played with virtual currency". They conclude that it is not barred by the act, and is legal.

I suppose, if you are convinced they made a mistake, you could contact the Ombudsman and request a review. But otherwise, you are clearly wrong.

"These games are not prohibited under the IGA as they do not satisfy the definition of a gambling
service, due to the virtual currency not being redeemable for real money or anything else of value."

Nice find! Hooray for the Department of Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy.

I thought 'tradeable for real world goods' would be how most people would interpret 'of value'.

That said, it is a government department's opinion not a court's, and the act itself doesn't define 'of value' in that way - though if there are other acts or case law precedent that do such that it's a well-established definition I'd say we're done here, at least in Australia.


The settlement in question, however, requires that those seeking a refund to attest that they did not give the minor who made the purchase their Apple password. See http://gigaom.com/2013/02/25/apple-settles-lawsuit-over-apps-aimed-at-kids-will-pay-5-itunes-credit-or-cash/. So, not quite on point to this, unless you are envisioning a case where the minor uses their parent's account to play the daily dice without knowing the parent's password.

Page 10 - "Secondly, under basic contract law, Plaintiffs alleged that each In-App Purchase charged by a minor constitutes a separate sales contract that may be disaffirmed (i.e. rendered voidable) by the minor (through the minor's legal guardians), and if the minor's guardians elected to disaffirm these purchase contracts, the class members will be entitled to restitution."

I'd think in DDO it's super reasonable to give your kid your password. In iTunes you would literally only do that so that they could make purchases, so it's reasonable to imply you consented as their guardian.

In DDO you would do it just so they could play. I suspect therefore that there's no implicit endorsement of any contracts (i.e. buying TP) that they could make.

Interesting too though!

Post more things please!

[Postumus]

Because when a child buys a package of cards, they do so with a real understanding of the transaction (ie you take it to the counter, they take your money and you go about your business).

I said Magic the Gathering ON LINE. It's a 100% digital product. No counters. No salespeople. Just click and buy. Just like DDO store.

Players purchase virtual packs of cards with real cash and open them (virtually) with a neat animation and then thumb through them (virtually) to see if they got any rares that are considered valuable in game. Most of the pack is junk common cards, maybe an uncommon, and at least one rare. The thing is, like the daily dice roll loot, not all rares are as valuable in game as other rares.

[Hokiewa]

I'd think in DDO it's super reasonable to give your kid your password. [/B]


Turbine would disagree with you

[Kilbar]

It never ceases to amuse and amaze me how "Think of the Children" proponents want everyone ELSE to think of the children so THEY don't have to. If you didn't want the responsibility of being a parent, you shouldn't have become one.

[gradeyshane]

I said Magic the Gathering ON LINE. It's a 100% digital product. No counters. No salespeople. Just click and buy. Just like DDO store.

Players purchase virtual packs of cards with real cash and open them (virtually) with a neat animation and then thumb through them (virtually) to see if they got any rares that are considered valuable in game. Most of the pack is junk common cards, maybe an uncommon, and at least one rare. The thing is, like the daily dice roll loot, not all rares are as valuable in game as other rares.

Ahh ok yes, I tried that game online for a few days. What a scam it was...no way in hell I'd let my kids mess with that garbage. IF they want to play magic they can go get the decks like I did as a younger man :D But that system its very obvious from the jump is a money grabbing scheme. We like to think of DDO as more of a players game than a money grab (we are trying to think that at least).

[gradeyshane]

It never ceases to amuse and amaze me how "Think of the Children" proponents want everyone ELSE to think of the children so THEY don't have to. If you didn't want the responsibility of being a parent, you shouldn't have become one.

ROFL. Good luck in life bud :) It will be a shocker for you.

[Deathdefy]

Turbine would disagree with you

Probably. It's wholly irrelevant though.

[HungarianRhapsody]

It never ceases to amuse and amaze me how "Think of the Children" proponents want everyone ELSE to think of the children so THEY don't have to. If you didn't want the responsibility of being a parent, you shouldn't have become one.

It never ceases to amuse me that some people think this is an either/or situation.

[mowomp]

It never ceases to amuse me that some people think this is an either/or situation.

Is the line of thought - you don't have a choice to become a parent, that it 'just happens'? Just curious

[TempestAlphaOmega]

Well this thread started off with such promise.

I got my popcorn, I got my beer.

The drama and clever (as well as not so clever) discussions flowed.

From gambling we have moved to the suitability of people to be parents and how that happens. I just love gaming forums.


Now should we start a pool on how many more posts/pages this goes before the cube is forced to feed?


Oh before I forget, not gambling, my opinion based on my understaning of what is going on and after not having seen any information provided in this thread that would lead me to consider changing my mind.

[Antiguo]

It never ceases to amuse and amaze me how "Think of the Children" proponents want everyone ELSE to think of the children so THEY don't have to. If you didn't want the responsibility of being a parent, you shouldn't have become one.

Funny joke.

Wait, are you for real?
.
.
.
.

really?

[gradeyshane]

hah yeah true that...I love these threads like this. I sure hope folks dont take me too seriously, im just having fun and jawing back and forth. I could argue either side honestly and have a good time doing it :D

[Gkar]

It never asks me for my card info when I buy new points. Does it yours? Am I special?

1) You can remove the card from your kid's account if you want for very young (who you should probably be monitoring anyway) or very bad kids.
2) If a kid goes into the store without your permission and makes a purchase, assuming of course you are a decent parent who has set out the rules for leaving your credit card on file, then your kid is effectively stealing your credit card if they use the one on file in the store.

[gradeyshane]

Ok cool! I didnt know you could remove it from the DDO store once you were VIP - I'll have to see if I can sort that out (if I ever get the 417 error removed and can log in again rofl).

Bah, I wanted to + rep ya but already used mine up today :D

[Gkar]

Ok cool! I didnt know you could remove it from the DDO store once you were VIP - I'll have to see if I can sort that out (if I ever get the 417 error removed and can log in again rofl).

Bah, I wanted to + rep ya but already used mine up today :D

Its sadly more manual than it should be. You have to call/email/ticket CS to remove it for you.

[HungarianRhapsody]

1) You can remove the card from your kid's account if you want for very young (who you should probably be monitoring anyway) or very bad kids.

You should remove the card from ANY account that isn't accessed exclusively by the cardholder(s). Just one man's opinion.

[Missing_Minds]

You should remove the card from ANY account that isn't accessed exclusively by the cardholder(s). Just one man's opinion.
It is one you won't get a disagreement from me on.

[Goolan]

A local DA tells me that this may be a violation of Federal Gambling Laws. As below:

The Wire Act was intended to assist the states, territories and possessions of the United States, as well as the District of Columbia, in enforcing their respective laws on gambling and bookmaking and to suppress organized gambling activities.[58] Subsection (a) of the Wire Act, a criminal provision, provides:

Whoever being engaged in the business of betting or wagering knowingly uses a wire communication facility for the transmission in interstate or foreign commerce of bets or wagers or information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers on any sporting event or contest, or for the transmission of a wire communication which entitles the recipient to receive money or credit as a result of bets or wagers, or for information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.[59]

I think that Turbine MAY be in violation of this law. I will look into it and get back to you.

[Missing_Minds]

I think that Turbine MAY be in violation of this law. I will look into it and get back to you.
Doesn't seem that way to the DOJ.

edit: or maybe not. reversal a few months later. *continues to read*

emm...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Wire_Act
Has not been updated.

Per this, however,
http://definitions.uslegal.com/f/federal-wire-act/

I would say it really depends on what "wager" and "betting" is defined as. Given there are no wagers placed for an outcome, and there is no betting on an outcome, I think it would be pushing to try to make Turbine's Daily Dice to actually stick against this. It most certainly does not come under the well known and defined categories for gambling for which the 1960s Wire Act was enabled against. The DD is pay a "fee" to get a random prize of no value external to the game.

Do let us know what lawyers decide as I am not one.

[Postumus]

A local DA tells me that this may be a violation of Federal Gambling Laws. As below:

The Wire Act was intended to assist the states, territories and possessions of the United States, as well as the District of Columbia, in enforcing their respective laws on gambling and bookmaking and to suppress organized gambling activities.[58] Subsection (a) of the Wire Act, a criminal provision, provides:

Whoever being engaged in the business of betting or wagering knowingly uses a wire communication facility for the transmission in interstate or foreign commerce of bets or wagers or information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers on any sporting event or contest, or for the transmission of a wire communication which entitles the recipient to receive money or credit as a result of bets or wagers, or for information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.[59]

I think that Turbine MAY be in violation of this law. I will look into it and get back to you.

Sic your DA on the Wizards of the Coast too since MTGO has been doing the exact same thing for ten years now but with actual money not TPs.

[Qhualor]

wouldn't Turbine have lawyers, or maybe have access to a WB lawyer, that would have already checked out the legalities of on line gambling before bringing it to live? Turbines wallet doesn't bloat more by paying fines.

[Habreno]

wouldn't Turbine have lawyers, or maybe have access to a WB lawyer, that would have already checked out the legalities of on line gambling before bringing it to live? Turbines wallet doesn't bloat more by paying fines.

You always push the grey area as far as you can into the black area because you can make a ton that way. Until you get caught.

I'm not surprised.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

A local DA tells me that this may be a violation of Federal Gambling Laws. As below:

The Wire Act was intended to assist the states, territories and possessions of the United States, as well as the District of Columbia, in enforcing their respective laws on gambling and bookmaking and to suppress organized gambling activities.[58] Subsection (a) of the Wire Act, a criminal provision, provides:

Whoever being engaged in the business of betting or wagering knowingly uses a wire communication facility for the transmission in interstate or foreign commerce of bets or wagers or information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers on any sporting event or contest, or for the transmission of a wire communication which entitles the recipient to receive money or credit as a result of bets or wagers, or for information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.[59]

I think that Turbine MAY be in violation of this law. I will look into it and get back to you.


You always push the grey area as far as you can into the black area because you can make a ton that way. Until you get caught.

I'm not surprised.


You must always remember that lawyers practice law and if everything was cut and dry then lawyers would not need to argue cases in front of a judge.

That said, it looks to me that trying to say that Turbine has violated the Wire Act based on putting the DD in using AS is really stretching (and a bit of twisting as well) several of the qualifiers in that act. Just my opinion. some of the few that have an actual opinion on this matter will surely feel otherwise.

Time to go watch a few more episodes of Judge Judy, Court TV & maybe a few The Good Wife episodes to brush up on my lawerly skills.

[Hafeal]

wouldn't Turbine have lawyers, or maybe have access to a WB lawyer, that would have already checked out the legalities of on line gambling before bringing it to live? Turbines wallet doesn't bloat more by paying fines.

I know this may come as a shock, but companies push the limit and undertake illegal activities all the time - even after vetted by their own lawyers. Whether it is Ford making a product which by design they knew would result in fatalities (Pinto) to Arthur Anderson (convicted of fraud) to Enron (out of business, execs convicted), and many, many others. Heck, this week, there was a finding that Chase deliberately blocked and impeded investigations into the trading losses that now appear to have violated laws in multiple countries.

The difference here is that while everything about this could be construed by the feds or a State to be covered under its gambling laws, it is too small to be an issue. Understaffed government watchdogs and bigger fish to fry mean something like this can be set-up and run for a long time before anyone turns an eye on it. Now, if you get big enough or you get on a powerful somebody's bad side - Facebook/Zynga, and there are real dollars that taxing authorities can get their hands on? Well, now you'll get some attention. Attention you definitely do not want.

DDO is a minnow in the ocean right now, even if it earns millions off this.

[gradeyshane]

You should remove the card from ANY account that isn't accessed exclusively by the cardholder(s). Just one man's opinion.



Good call man, thank you guys..i didnt even know it was an option :)

[gradeyshane]

I know this may come as a shock, but companies push the limit and undertake illegal activities all the time - even after vetted by their own lawyers. Whether it is Ford making a product which by design they knew would result in fatalities (Pinto) to Arthur Anderson (convicted of fraud) to Enron (out of business, execs convicted), and many, many others. Heck, this week, there was a finding that Chase deliberately blocked and impeded investigations into the trading losses that now appear to have violated laws in multiple countries.

The difference here is that while everything about this could be construed by the feds or a State to be covered under its gambling laws, it is too small to be an issue. Understaffed government watchdogs and bigger fish to fry mean something like this can be set-up and run for a long time before anyone turns an eye on it. Now, if you get big enough or you get on a powerful somebody's bad side - Facebook/Zynga, and there are real dollars that taxing authorities can get their hands on? Well, now you'll get some attention. Attention you definitely do not want.

DDO is a minnow in the ocean right now, even if it earns millions off this.

I wonder if the state of TN would like their share of DDO's online gambling revenue? I know they SURE want their share if you bet in the Bahamas online :D

[TrinityTurtle]

A local DA tells me that this may be a violation of Federal Gambling Laws. As below:

The Wire Act was intended to assist the states, territories and possessions of the United States, as well as the District of Columbia, in enforcing their respective laws on gambling and bookmaking and to suppress organized gambling activities.[58] Subsection (a) of the Wire Act, a criminal provision, provides:

Whoever being engaged in the business of betting or wagering knowingly uses a wire communication facility for the transmission in interstate or foreign commerce of bets or wagers or information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers on any sporting event or contest, or for the transmission of a wire communication which entitles the recipient to receive money or credit as a result of bets or wagers, or for information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.[59]

I think that Turbine MAY be in violation of this law. I will look into it and get back to you.

However is the local DA also aware that, in addition to a guaranteed item, where the only 'gamble' is on what that item is, that it also does NOT require actual cash to play ever? You get one free spin per day on silver. I have won astral shards on that. I could save up those shards and spin more silver or gold without ever paying a dime in. I'm vip, I could use my points I get for that on this, without ever spending an additional dime on it.

Money is not REQUIRED to do this, just more money gives you more chances to get something you want out of it. And you do get something every time. Just like those stupid toy vending machines with the random things inside, or the collectible card games, or the bizarre collectible miniatures WOTC put out aren't gambling, this is not true gambling either, and I would suspicion the DA has not looked at the entire situation clearly if he thinks they are violating laws.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

I wonder if the state of TN would like their share of DDO's online gambling revenue? I know they SURE want their share if you bet in the Bahamas online :D

So your thoughts are that on your next State of TN income tax return you will be needing to declare the following as gambling winnings:

One Jewler's Tool
5 Greater Air Essences
a Blade of the Dark Six

Hmmm I see an audit in someones future......

[Hendrik]

So your thoughts are that on your next State of TN income tax return you will be needing to declare the following as gambling winnings:

One Jewler's Tool
5 Greater Air Essences
a Blade of the Dark Six

Hmmm I see an audit in someones future......

Hehe

[gradeyshane]

So your thoughts are that on your next State of TN income tax return you will be needing to declare the following as gambling winnings:

One Jewler's Tool
5 Greater Air Essences
a Blade of the Dark Six

Hmmm I see an audit in someones future......

Weeeelllllll....jus so ya know, the Grand state of Tunnusuuh has no income tax. But I welcome an audit at any point by the feds or state gov. We get audited every few years due to my profession eheh.

[gradeyshane]

Haha that would be funny to have to list DDO as a source of INCOME! rofl.

[Lyria]

Easy as that eh? Some states have extremely strict views on gambling. Have you seen TV giveaways that only need a phone call, or an web site reply, sweepstakes that involve NO money at all but give a prize, and did you notice there is ALWAYS a disclaimer excluding certain states?

Note the bolded part. You're getting an actual item for it. It's a prize.

Spending money and winning virtual goods isn't "gambling". You're spending money to get something in a game. Much in the same way that if Turbine (or any other company) put up a "random gift box" on their store that had random stuff in it, it would also NOT be "gambling".

Is buying a random deck of cards for a collectable card game "gambling?" You're spending real money and getting physical goods in return -- just random ones, which may or may not be worth more than what you spent. Is it gambling? If you stretch the logic a bit, it most certainly could be. However, I know of no state that views it as such.

Similarly, yes you can spend money to roll some dice and get a virtual item or two. Since these items have zero cash value, and can't be removed from the game, nor can you "sell them back" to Turbine, it's not gambling from a legal standpoint. It really is that simple.

[Missing_Minds]

Is buying a random deck of cards for a collectable card game "gambling?" You're spending real money and getting physical goods in return -- just random ones, which may or may not be worth more than what you spent. Is it gambling? If you stretch the logic a bit, it most certainly could be. However, I know of no state that views it as such.
To be fair I still do call that gambling. But I do not consider it illegal gambling that needs any form of government regulation, nor can the government really cash in on it because there is nothing to further tax. You are already paying sales tax for the cards.

Could a government declare it gambling, but define it somehow to where it is non regulated but add a .05 tax per sale of such items? (under which dice, poker chips, and other parafinelia(sp) may or may not fall depending upon labeling legalese) sure.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Its sadly more manual than it should be. You have to call/email/ticket CS to remove it for you.

There's another option, which i do for almost all of my accounts that have cards attached. Go buy a $5 visa/whatever gift card (many banks have them for any amount), and only switch to your real card when it's time to get points/renew VIP. It's a bit of a hassle, but it's certainly less time than dealing with customer service. And a lot of the cards( the ones i get at least) have expiration dates in 2018, so you can just keep using that 1.

I don't even have kids or anything, I just hate my card being "on-file" anywhere...

[Gkar]

There's another option, which i do for almost all of my accounts that have cards attached. Go buy a $5 visa/whatever gift card (many banks have them for any amount), and only switch to your real card when it's time to get points/renew VIP. It's a bit of a hassle, but it's certainly less time than dealing with customer service. And a lot of the cards( the ones i get at least) have expiration dates in 2018, so you can just keep using that 1.

I don't even have kids or anything, I just hate my card being "on-file" anywhere...

That's a pretty good tip!

[Kilbar]

Wow, some of you guys are trying really hard to make Turbine stop giving us free stuff with the option to buy more.

[Hendrik]

Wow, some of you guys are trying really hard to make Turbine stop giving us free stuff with the option to buy more.

It has been shown how much the community hates free stuff.

Maybe they want thier morality imposed on everyone else.

[gradeyshane]

You crack me up...no kidding you do :D I love it.

[HAL]

We can buy shards, with real money to gamble with on the daily dice. Seems like it could be beyond the grey area and full on gambling to me. Real money with a game of chance. I think this could open up a whole can of bad worms for Turbine if someone with an addiction decides to bring a law suit. Even casinos have to publically warn people, run service adds and have age restrictions and must be located in areas that allow gambling and such.

I'm just curious - so what? I mean so why are you concerned about it? Turbine belongs to Warner Brothers, maybe you've heard of them. I'm pretty sure they have a really big legal department. And how do you explain all of the MMOs that have had "gambling" for YEARS and have never been "found out" by the regulators?

No, I'm not concerned that this is legally considered real gambling. Now at some point in the future the laws might change so that the government can benefit from this form of gambling also.

[st0rmcr0vv]

Wow... this thread is still going strong huh?

Astral shards are intellectual content owned by Turbine. You agreed in the EULA that you understand that you own no part of the content in the game ("your" loot, "your" characters or even "your" TP etc). THUS if you don't own astral shards nor can you own the outcome of the die roll (per your agreement with Turbine) then you aren't legally gambling as nothing changes hands after you pay them for the service of crediting TP to your game account.

It seems to be as legal as the tavern games of chance...

Have fun! :D

[HAL]

Wow... this thread is still going strong huh?

Astral shards are intellectual content owned by Turbine. You agreed in the EULA that you understand that you own no part of the content in the game ("your" loot, "your" characters or even "your" TP etc). THUS if you don't own astral shards nor can you own the outcome of the die roll (per your agreement with Turbine) then you aren't legally gambling as nothing changes hands after you pay them for the service of crediting TP to your game account.

It seems to be as legal as the tavern games of chance...

Have fun! :D

Ding Ding Ding - we have a winner!

[DarkForte]

Wow... this thread is still going strong huh?

Astral shards are intellectual content owned by Turbine. You agreed in the EULA that you understand that you own no part of the content in the game ("your" loot, "your" characters or even "your" TP etc). THUS if you don't own astral shards nor can you own the outcome of the die roll (per your agreement with Turbine) then you aren't legally gambling as nothing changes hands after you pay them for the service of crediting TP to your game account.

It seems to be as legal as the tavern games of chance...

Have fun! :D
Holy ****. You lawyers are sneaky fellows.

[gradeyshane]

Yeah truth be told the feds cant even figure out how to regulate bitcoin....no way they'll figure this one out rofl.

[Postumus]

It has been shown how much the community hates free stuff.



Yeah I learned that one when a few vocal players complained about getting extra gems.

[SiliconScout]

Wow this thread certainly keeps on going like the energizer bunny ... but instead of seeing that cute little rabbit all I keep seeing in my head is

http://www.thamike.com/images/ralph_wiggum.jpg

[st0rmcr0vv]

Holy ****. You lawyers are sneaky fellows.

I am not a lawyer nor am I licensed or authorized to practice law in any state or country. Any and all statements made by me pertaining to "legality" are strictly opinion or my own personal interpretation of the facts available. I am not affiliated with Turbine, it's management or it's parent companies. I am void where prohibited :)

[bartharok]

Also in that vein, I also don't invite other people to a different playground to be ambushed by many because you couldn't handle yourself on neutral territory. So as you said, "Thanks for making it abundantly clear what kind of person you are."

Umm.. He cant ambush anybody three, because it would be abundantly clear what was going on if you DID join their conversation. Actually i think it might be amusing having someone attempt to bully me on the forums, since there is actually nothing they could do. It would be me hitting myself with a hammer if they managed to harm me, and that would be downright embarassing. But not as embarassing as trying to bully me would be.

[Derailment]

Yeah I learned that one when a few vocal players complained about getting extra gems.

Gems weren't free, they come with price of inventory slots, but in the end, you really could raise some plat.
Wait, plat? *giggles* *heads to ASAH, rolling Daily Dice on the way*

[The10man]

Ultimately children playing DDO with a CC it is up to the parents to police. I still think though that the Daily dice ought to have a popup box after the free roll telling you that further rolls will cost AS since essentially the only way to get AS is to buy them. If Turbine truly wants us to switch to it as a currency then it needs to be introduced in chests etc first as an occasional pull, then a semirare pull, then a rare pull. Build up some bank so players will have AS to post things with and drive up demand. I think the ASAH and the Daily dice and other things like the VIP XP benefit (Which was a correct move and WAY WAY WAY overdue as the first truly VIP benefit. Don't give me that elite unlock **** you could by those cheap) are means to increase bottom line. I just hope that it is not from a meeting stating increase bottom line or else.

[Hirosue]

" it isn't gambling because you get a free dice roll and it isn't really money "


i suppose it isn't drug dealing either if you occasionally give away a free sample .


Simple fact is that once you have used your daily dice roll you then must use astral shards if you continue to play.

If i buy astral shards from the store for real money then i am paying to play a virtual dice game of chance.

Ergo i am gambling.

Everything else is just a fog screen set up by Turbine to distract from what daily dice
and the Astral shard auction house are all about. i.e real money for in game items and real money for random rewards.

make no mistake turbine will have passed this over to their legal department for an opinion.
Evidently they have decided that it is permissable under current regulations or lack of regulations and gone ahead with it.

Personally i have barely logged in over the last week as this issue of in game gambling really sticks in my craw so to speak.
I think for me this is the final straw.

[Gkar]

" it isn't gambling because you get a free dice roll and it isn't really money "

Actually most people were smart enought to say it isn't illegal gambling. Every chest in this game is gambling.


i suppose it isn't drug dealing either if you occasionally give away a free sample .

That would in fact NOT be drug dealing. It would be drug possession and trafficing (the exact charge would depend on where you live of course)



Simple fact is that once you have used your daily dice roll you then must use astral shards if you continue to play.

But you aren't gambling for a prize of any material value and thus, its not in the gray, it isn't illegal gambling period.

[Hirosue]

gkar you are funny.

value is a subjective term as you well know.

As far as i am aware there isnt any case law to determine if subjective value of virtual goods is sufficient cause.

if you are going to try and quote or present legal concepts to justify your responses perhaps you should understand them a little better.

p.s the way you dissect my post is a pretty pathetic attempt to mislead people and take my points out of context which does you no credit at all