ddo is pay to win?

[arglefargle]

A serious concern here for a game that I have enjoyed for awhile now.

So relatively recently turbine made all epic gear unbound. Yes, to some it made the game more casual/accessible (howerver you wish to view this) but this is not the focus of this post. The point is that until now, your rate of acquisition of epic gear was still somehow tied to how efficiently you can acquire millions of platinum/other trade-worthy items to barter for the epic items you want.

In essence, your acquired gear was solely determined by your in-game accopmlishments.

Now, turbine has made in-game items purchasable for astral shards. This implies that one can go buy a pile of astral shards for real money, and then convert those shards into items, effectively buying any item on the auction house for irl cash.

What in the actual hell is turbine thinking? Was that stupid daily slot machine put in just to distract us from noticing this from happening?

[chrisdinus7]

A serious concern here for a game that I have enjoyed for awhile now.

So relatively recently turbine made all epic gear unbound. Yes, to some it made the game more casual/accessible (howerver you wish to view this) but this is not the focus of this post. The point is that until now, your rate of acquisition of epic gear was still somehow tied to how efficiently you can acquire millions of platinum/other trade-worthy items to barter for the epic items you want.

In essence, your acquired gear was solely determined by your in-game accopmlishments.

Now, turbine has made in-game items purchasable for astral shards. This implies that one can go buy a pile of astral shards for real money, and then convert those shards into items, effectively buying any item on the auction house for irl cash.

What in the actual hell is turbine thinking? Was that stupid daily slot machine put in just to distract us from noticing this from happening?

Meh - maybe your server is different. On mine, folks have been trading TP codes for high quality items for a long time. Particularly since the BtCoE gear from U14 on.

[Kilbar]

A serious concern here for a game that I have enjoyed for awhile now.

So relatively recently turbine made all epic gear unbound. Yes, to some it made the game more casual/accessible (howerver you wish to view this) but this is not the focus of this post. The point is that until now, your rate of acquisition of epic gear was still somehow tied to how efficiently you can acquire millions of platinum/other trade-worthy items to barter for the epic items you want.

In essence, your acquired gear was solely determined by your in-game accopmlishments.

Now, turbine has made in-game items purchasable for astral shards. This implies that one can go buy a pile of astral shards for real money, and then convert those shards into items, effectively buying any item on the auction house for irl cash.

What in the actual hell is turbine thinking? Was that stupid daily slot machine put in just to distract us from noticing this from happening?

Oh for fornicate's sake, what are you paying to win, exactly? What is being won? Anything? Anything of real value? Or just pretty pixels?

[Missing_Minds]

Oh for [kittens] sake, what are you paying to win, exactly? What is being won? Anything? Anything of real value? Or just pretty pixels?

It is really dependent upon what your definition of pay to win is.

In my opinion, for a person just starting out, it is pay to win. Now let me explain.

To "win" in this game, for me, means being able to get to cap, and have the gear necessary to compete at end game. Both at "relative" ease.

To facilitate this "ease", one needs access to quests, and quests that drop the loot desired. Therefore, one must buy packs in order to have quests for abundant XP and the best chance to pull loot rather than pray for AH for BTCoE gear or hand me downs from friends.

[Ape_Man]

the USS P2Win is heading towards the iceberg, just try to have as much fun as you can before it sinks.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

Oh for fornicate's sake, what are you paying to win, exactly? What is being won? Anything? Anything of real value? Or just pretty pixels?

Pretty pixels, mostly.

For many people it's all about the toys. For other it's being able to pwn on any level. For other's it's being able to brag about how elite they are.

When you can pay to twink your toons, pay for cakes, pay to make yourself more powerful (+4 tomes in the DDO store?), ability pots, SP & HP Pots, &c... You think you aren't paying to "win"?
Really?
What do you think you're paying for?

No one ever "loses"?


As for value... that's always been subjective. Clearly people pay money for those things, don't they have value?

[arglefargle]

It's almost like everyone in this game is ok with trading real money for pixels to advance their character! You are giving turbine money for doing nothing.

This is the RMAH from diablo 3. Why do so many people in games eat up this fecal matter like it was candy? The fundamental idea behind this concept is flawed.

Also, I have never traded TP codes for items; I assume it wasn't officially supported and was based on the honour system. (that one party in the trade will communicate an unused TP code in exchange for an item).

[sebastianosmith]

the USS P2Win is heading towards the iceberg, just try to have as much fun as you can before it sinks.

Now how can a hypothetical sea-going vessel presumably registered with the United States Navy cause an iceberg to loose buoyancy? That's just crazy talk.

[Gkar]

It's almost like everyone in this game is ok with trading real money for pixels to advance their character! You are giving turbine money for doing nothing.

Actually I give them money to entertain me in the way I want to be entertained. You pay for pixels too btw unless you are completely F2P and have never gone VIP or premium.



Also, I have never traded TP codes for items; I assume it wasn't officially supported and was based on the honour system. (that one party in the trade will communicate an unused TP code in exchange for an item).

Correct.

Given how many of those trades happened, there were surprisingly few people who complained about a bad trade.

[Kilbar]

Pretty pixels, mostly.

For many people it's all about the toys. For other it's being able to pwn on any level. For other's it's being able to brag about how elite they are.

When you can pay to twink your toons, pay for cakes, pay to make yourself more powerful (+4 tomes in the DDO store?), ability pots, SP & HP Pots, &c... You think you aren't paying to "win"?
Really?
What do you think you're paying for?

No one ever "loses"?


As for value... that's always been subjective. Clearly people pay money for those things, don't they have value?

I pay for fun. When I buy something from the cash shop, I look at it as no different than any other entertainment purchase. Because this is a game and if I'm not having fun, I'm wasting my time.

[cidchronic]

P2W means you pay, turbine wins, and the new astral shard auction house make them win 3 ways. you spend AS to post, someone uses AS to buy, turbine takes 30% AS back.

[Missing_Minds]

Now how can a hypothetical sea-going vessel presumably registered with the United States Navy cause an iceberg to loose buoyancy? That's just crazy talk.
Well.. I guess if the USS releases enough pollutants such to where the water density around it in a large enough area changes, it could cause the iceberg to sink.

[Kawai]

Now how can a hypothetical sea-going vessel presumably registered with the United States Navy cause an iceberg to loose buoyancy? That's just crazy talk.

:confused:

well... if Chuck Norris is aboard?
---dibs on the ship. :p

[Luxgolg]

DDO is pay to play. There are some "free" things, but we all end up paying for something. What you buy directly affects how you play the game. Pay to Win is a term used for people who spend more money than others.

[RumbIe]

Since there is no PvP in the game (to speak of anyways) I'm not sure why everyone cares so much about how other people play.

If you don't want to take advantage of the system then don't. No one is forcing you to pay. You can still run groups and quests as you like. If it were a PvP focused game then I would tend to agree since people could pay and their purchases could directly affect your user experience. However it only affects the people who are paying and why do you care if they have a nice shiny and you don't? If you just focus on your own characters and your own time playing then you'll enjoy it that much more.

So continue on the way you are and have fun and don't care about what others are doing. Trust me it works. I know because that's how I do it and I could care less if someone has 20 eSOS or how they got them. Not my concern. I'm only concerned with how I get mine and what I do with it when I do.

Also you can only buy items that were BtCoE, not straight up BTC raid items (so my eSOS is a bad example of course). You could always buy those BtCoE items before you just couldn't once you actually equipped them. So now when you get an item and want to try it you can and when you're done with it, rather than having it sit in your bank taking up space you can actually sell it to someone else to enjoy. I personally will not likely partake in this new feature, but I think its a good idea and I see no down side. Raid items are still sacred and non-raid loot, which you cold always sell before, can still be sold as before.

[Kilbar]

P2W means you pay, turbine wins, and the new astral shard auction house make them win 3 ways. you spend AS to post, someone uses AS to buy, turbine takes 30% AS back.

Oh golly gee whiz, wouldn't want the big bad company that needs money to continue operating to... you know... make money! Good lord you people can be petulant about the prospect of Turbine actually turning a profit!

[Gkar]

. So now when you get an item and want to try it you can and when you're done with it, rather than having it sit in your bank taking up space you can actually sell it to someone else to enjoy.

I have a GS blank that I was going to sell in the first year of the Shroud that I double clicked on by accident. :confused:

I could never bear to throw it out, and now I finally can sell it :) I don't care if I get only 1 net AS from it, I want something out of that **** blank! lol

[Gkar]

Oh golly gee whiz, wouldn't want the big bad company that needs money to continue operating to... you know... make money! Good lord you people can be petulant about the prospect of Turbine actually turning a profit!

I'm good with them making a profit, but after selling you the AS and then taking a 30-40% cut of the stuff they just sold you it seems....a bit unreasonable.

[apaurin]

Yes it is, but honestly I don't care. What I do care is Turbine's policy of prioritizing p2w implementation over bug fixing, and on top of that breaking more and more stuff with every update.

[psykopeta]

DDO is pay to loose:

- vips that get treated as 5 month old babies, they pay a quote and have to pay same stuff as other players (expansions, etc)

- players that get special offers "that never will see again", next month released again, even at cheaper prize

- check the ASAH, then check the cost of AS via TP: 500 AS = 2,8k TP, for less than 500 AS you will find only trash, most times not even epic hard

so like i said before: ddo is pay to loose, only a loser would pay to win in this game, in rest of games at least you have some respect, here you pay today, and tomorrow turbine spits on your food

btw, turbine is gonna lose tons of money with ASAH, before they relesed it you could see some non-abusive trades with TP codes in the forum, with the ASAH as "current prize" you won't see same prizes again = great decrease in TP codes sold/month

and pretty sure nobody is gonna buy AS right now, would be quite silly looking at the offer

btw, otto's box for 4-5k ASAH in thelanis, quite... funny? lol

[Phaeton_Seraph]

It's almost like everyone in this game is ok with trading real money for pixels to advance their character! You are giving turbine money for doing nothing.

This is the RMAH from diablo 3. Why do so many people in games eat up this fecal matter like it was candy? The fundamental idea behind this concept is flawed.

Also, I have never traded TP codes for items; I assume it wasn't officially supported and was based on the honour system. (that one party in the trade will communicate an unused TP code in exchange for an item).

Well, I can play devil's advocate. The biggest justification for P2W I can think of is where it comes to grinds.

When I look at various expenses in my RL, I think about how much my professional time is worth. I then consider the relative value of my personal time.
Sometimes it's worth more, sometimes less. I depends on how onerous or enjoyable something may be.

A lot of grinding is onerous. If it's something that feels like work, it's not fun.

On that basis I can understand paying for shortcuts, like timer bypasses, or ingredients, or crafting XP elixers...

General XP? I don't get why someone would want to level faster. My new TR can't even get full XP from all the sub-level 5 quests/chains because it levels too fast.

Getting addicted to cakes, gold seal buffs and hires, &c... It gets excessive.

[arglefargle]

Actually I give them money to entertain me in the way I want to be entertained. You pay for pixels too btw unless you are completely F2P and have never gone VIP or premium.

No.

No, no no no. You are completely missing the point. When you buy an adventure pack, you are paying for game content - something that developers at turbine had to envision, create, test, and put work into. Paying for an item which is spawned by a random number generator is not analogous to paying for actual content created by people working. Yes, the loot generator was coded by someone at some point in time, but the work that was put into making that feature of the game has long since been payed for. Your argument is moot.

The issue here is that turbine is collecting money for doing absolutely nothing.

Rewards in-game should be awarded based on merit and accomplishments achieved in the game rather than how much money someone spends on digital items.

Again, not on a digital PRODUCT, but on digital ITEMS. there -IS- a difference, and it pains me to see that people cannot differentiate between the two.




Given how many of those trades happened, there were surprisingly few people who complained about a bad trade.

Well now turbine is officially supporting the whole trade money for items scenario.

[HAL]

I could care less how much stuff another character has, what quality it is or how they got it. It makes no difference to my play.

[Qhualor]

Oh golly gee whiz, wouldn't want the big bad company that needs money to continue operating to... you know... make money! Good lord you people can be petulant about the prospect of Turbine actually turning a profit!

Probably if the product was of better quality and we could actually think that the money is going back into the game, we wouldnt feel like WB/Turbine are just lining their pockets.

[Rubiconn]

Oh for fornicate's sake, what are you paying to win, exactly? What is being won? Anything? Anything of real value? Or just pretty pixels?

Now just stop that, we will have none of that meaningful logic around here. This is a place for panic and dramatizations.

[Kilbar]

Rewards in-game should be awarded based on merit and accomplishments achieved in the game rather than how much money someone spends on digital items.

Why? Justify this statement.

[Uma-Quixote]

"Pay to win"

Deluded, paranoid twaddle.

[sebastianosmith]

Well.. I guess if the USS releases enough pollutants such to where the water density around it in a large enough area changes, it could cause the iceberg to sink.

That would have to be a mighty load of something less dense than sea water. Dispersion or diffusion would make said plan even more difficult as any such substance would by definition float on water. I suppose a large network of aerators could be placed under the iceberg and used to pump hundreds of thousands of cubic meters of air into the water, thus lowering the water density to the point of negative buoyancy. However, what platform is used to house and power the pumps in question is of little consequence beyond being able to keep those pumps running and supplied with air.

[THOTHdha]

A serious concern here for a game that I have enjoyed for awhile now.
*snip*
In essence, your acquired gear was solely determined by your in-game accopmlishments.

DDO has been Pay to Win since such store additions as Raid Bypass Timers and Tomes of Fate. That ship has sailed, and nothing is going to call it back.

However, I do not really see your point here. Raid gear is all Bind to Account, and as such can not be traded. The types of items that can now be traded are the same items that were being traded for TP codes for a long time now. The only two differences are that now Turbine gets a two cuts rather than one, by selling you their monopoly money Astral Shards and pulling 40% of them out of circulation, and that these items can now be pawned off on new people second hand where before once you put it on you were stuck with it. None of this has every had anything to do with actually accomplishing anything, other than getting into a good EE farm group and having good RNG luck.

[arglefargle]

Now just stop that, we will have none of that meaningful logic around here. This is a place for panic and dramatizations.

Actually, I think the debate is quite valid, as there are some meaningful points to discuss. Dismissing everything with sarcasm detracts from healthy discussions. It is very hard to have meaningful discussions on these forums, because you always have people coming in with their own sarcastic quips.

We have so many problems playing, for example the huge lag spikes in i2049 that make the game utterly unplayable, but rather than addressing these problems and letting us know that they are investigating / fixing them, instead we see turbine implementing more ways for them to shake people down for money.

I have absolutley no problem with turbine making money from products that they create. However, when they aren't interested in fixing fundamental issues with gameplay, but instead introduce real money gambling and a real money auction house, this really makes me wonder about their priorities. It seems like they aren't interested in making a high quality product for us anymore.

[cidchronic]

Oh golly gee whiz, wouldn't want the big bad company that needs money to continue operating to... you know... make money! Good lord you people can be petulant about the prospect of Turbine actually turning a profit!

it is not an issue with them making profit, it is how they are doing it and shouldnt they be fixing bugs from content we already paid for rather them finding more ways to make money and breaking more things.

They were already making good money from otto boxes/TPcode trades, but now they want 30-40% more. they didnt add low lvl augment vendor when EGH came out, so lets add them to the collectable guys and have an AS option. fixing the collectable useless issue by turning them into another money grab.

If turbine was more honest about what they are doing, and dedicated some resources to fixing bugs and quality of life issues, most would not have a problem with a little profiteering

[sebastianosmith]

Actually, I think the debate is quite valid, as there are some meaningful points to discuss. Dismissing everything with sarcasm detracts from healthy discussions. It is very hard to have meaningful discussions on these forums, because you always have people coming in with their own sarcastic quips.

Yes, this debate is valid. It's a valid as debating the aesthetics of various types of fruit and almost as meaningful. While you may not consider sarcasm a legitimate rhetorical device, I assure you it is. Sarcasm plunges to the heart of any matter with far more alacrity than page after page of ponderous nitpicking.

Let me sum this up for any who would care to read:

Turbine have done what they have done. There is next to nothing any of us can do about it. Like it; don't like it; doesn't matter. All those who are seriously off-put by the recent changes should stop playing. If enough people stop playing and paying, the game will change. Do not expect it to change in a fashion you desire unless you are willing to acquire DDO from Warner Brothers and fund those changes yourself.

Now, who would like to contribute to my thesis on "Kumquats: How Round is too Round"?

[bonscott87]

I'm not sure how this "Pay 2 Win" actually matters to anyone. If every person in the game but me paid real money for 10000 shards and bought all this great loot for themselves, this effects my game how? Again...how?

DDO doesn't have real PvP and thus how much gear you or anyone else has does not effect my game *at all* so who cares if it's now P2W where you can buy your gear with real money. This effects me not in any way other then to perhaps make the game stronger because Turbine will have more money to continue development.

Now will I personally use the Shard AH? Very unlikely. That is my choice. As it is for everyone. But again, if someone else decides to pay Turbine so they can get some super dooper gear, more power to 'em, doesn't change my enjoyment of the game one bit.

[squishwizzy]

Well.. I guess if the USS releases enough pollutants such to where the water density around it in a large enough area changes, it could cause the iceberg to sink.

Technically speaking, more pollutants in the water would make the water surrounding the iceberg more dense, and thus the iceberd would be mor buoyant.

Fresh water - absent salt - makes thing less buoyant, which is the reason why ships have to adjust their ballast when going from seawater to freshwater. Likewise, in areas like the Dead Sea, with high concentrations of salt,things are highly buoyant because the salt concentrations are very high, making the liquid very dense, and thus able to create a higher level of buouyancy.

Of course, this assumes that the unnamed soluable pollutants have a higher molecular weight than water...which is generally the case.

[Chai]

DDO has been Pay to Win since such store additions as Raid Bypass Timers and Tomes of Fate. That ship has sailed, and nothing is going to call it back.

However, I do not really see your point here. Raid gear is all Bind to Account, and as such can not be traded. The types of items that can now be traded are the same items that were being traded for TP codes for a long time now. The only two differences are that now Turbine gets a two cuts rather than one, by selling you their monopoly money Astral Shards and pulling 40% of them out of circulation, and that these items can now be pawned off on new people second hand where before once you put it on you were stuck with it. None of this has every had anything to do with actually accomplishing anything, other than getting into a good EE farm group and having good RNG luck.

The point is that Turbine found a way to untether the relationship between making money and maintaining a quality game. Note that I did not say they WONT maintain a quality game, just that the relationship no longer exists - the driving force for making profit is no longer maintaining a quality game. It is implementing moar p2w, in the form of barrier circumvention and time consumption mitigation. What this means is that the bean counters behind the wheel will make more decisions that will cause more and more resources to be allocated to implementing p2w, while less resources are allocated to fixing issues and ensuring new issues dont occur - which no longer directly drives profit.


Probably if the product was of better quality and we could actually think that the money is going back into the game, we wouldnt feel like WB/Turbine are just lining their pockets.

This.

[squishwizzy]

I look at it this way: lets say you stop talking about DDO, and change it to something like poker.

What kind of game would you get if, for sake of argument, if a player could buy a full house? I dunno. I'm sure after the thrill of winning the first ten hands wears off, you'd get quickly bored, and move on to something else. Mainly because people play games for the challenge, and not to just simply win.

I'm with the contingent that says buying stuff with TP for epic equipment is going to kill this game (amongst other things).

[Karavek]

Yes, this debate is valid. It's a valid as debating the aesthetics of various types of fruit and almost as meaningful. While you may not consider sarcasm a legitimate rhetorical device, I assure you it is. Sarcasm plunges to the heart of any matter with far more alacrity than page after page of ponderous nitpicking.

Let me sum this up for any who would care to read:

Turbine have done what they have done. There is next to nothing any of us can do about it. Like it; don't like it; doesn't matter. All those who are seriously off-put by the recent changes should stop playing. If enough people stop playing and paying, the game will change. Do not expect it to change in a fashion you desire unless you are willing to acquire DDO from Warner Brothers and fund those changes yourself.

Now, who would like to contribute to my thesis on "Kumquats: How Round is too Round"?

Well personally I like spherical fruit. There is just something about it that makes me see it as almost adorable.

Oh and no one wins in DDO until you can be the one to steal the apocalypse stone and end the world once and for all.

[Missing_Minds]

Of course, this assumes that the unnamed soluable pollutants have a higher molecular weight than water...which is generally the case.

Oh I agree. I was using the term pollutant in the form that it was something added to a homogenous solution of 'water'. I'm not a chemist, so pollutant probably isn't the correct term.

[Thrudh]

if someone else decides to pay Turbine so they can get some super dooper gear, more power to 'em, doesn't change my enjoyment of the game one bit.

Actually, it might INCREASE your enjoyment of the game a bit, because if Turbine makes more money, more content might get produced.

[Kmnh]

DDO has been p2w since spell point potions were addeed to the store. Nothing added after that is as game-warping.

[sebastianosmith]

I look at it this way: lets say you stop talking about DDO, and change it to something like poker.

What kind of game would you get if, for sake of argument, if a player could buy a full house?

Watch this logic. At no time will my hands leave my wrist.

Poker requires a buy-in to play Any content and pays off in Real Money.
DDO requires a buy-in to play Some content and pays off in Entertainment Value only.
Some is part of Any.
Real Money can be used to acquire Entertainment Value.
Therefore, DDO is poker.

eSOS or better to open, anyone?

[Postumus]

the USS P2Win is heading towards the iceberg, just try to have as much fun as you can before it sinks.

Isn't that a recycled headline from 20010?

[Postumus]

Watch this logic. At no time will my hands leave my wrist.

Poker requires a buy-in to play Any content and pays off in Real Money.
DDO requires a buy-in to play Some content and pays off in Entertainment Value only.
Some is part of Any.
Real Money can be used to acquire Entertainment Value.
Therefore, DDO is poker.

eSOS or better to open, anyone?

So when will ESPN2 be showing the World Series of DDO?

[easyaction]

Have you ever been to a car show? Rows and rows of flashy vehicles sitting there for people to preen at...

Do those people race those cars, betting to win all the fancy fenders, engine parts, paint jobs? some do, some things are won, but mostly they put cold hard cash down so they can show off just how pretty they can make their cars.

Now are you going to go to car shows and preach how they're all pay to win? because at least at car shows they have a 1st place.

DDO on the other hand is a car show, everyone just showing off how uber a character they can make.

only in DDO.....there isn't a first place.

[Qhualor]

I'm not sure how this "Pay 2 Win" actually matters to anyone. If every person in the game but me paid real money for 10000 shards and bought all this great loot for themselves, this effects my game how? Again...how?

DDO doesn't have real PvP and thus how much gear you or anyone else has does not effect my game *at all* so who cares if it's now P2W where you can buy your gear with real money. This effects me not in any way other then to perhaps make the game stronger because Turbine will have more money to continue development.

Now will I personally use the Shard AH? Very unlikely. That is my choice. As it is for everyone. But again, if someone else decides to pay Turbine so they can get some super dooper gear, more power to 'em, doesn't change my enjoyment of the game one bit.

ASAH provides another way to not play the game. If people are looking for loot, they dont need to run quests when they can just buy it from the ASAH. ASAH takes a reason out of looking /forming a group looking for loot.

Gear doesnt suddenly make your character more powerful. Its how you utilize that power that makes your character more powerful. People complain about groups not knowing how to play, but they have the gear that they think qualifies them to run hardest difficulties?

You dont have to play a PVP game to have P2W. Turbine changed the meaning of P2W with DDO and other MMOs followed suit. More MMOs are changing and new ones are creating a F2P system that offers ways to bypass time and grind restrictions. Its been quite successful or DDO would have failed it by now and other MMOs would stop following their lead.

[Kilbar]

There is precisely one way to win DDO, and that is to attain the Completionist feat. When I can pay for that in the cash shop, this game will be pay to win. Until then, cry me a river.

[Chai]

Have you ever been to a car show? Rows and rows of flashy vehicles sitting there for people to preen at...

Do those people race those cars, betting to win all the fancy fenders, engine parts, paint jobs? some do, some things are won, but mostly they put cold hard cash down so they can show off just how pretty they can make their cars.

Now are you going to go to car shows and preach how they're all pay to win? because at least at car shows they have a 1st place.

DDO on the other hand is a car show, everyone just showing off how uber a character they can make.

only in DDO.....there isn't a first place.

Its more like a pixelated cold war style arms race for a very small percentage of people, where they get to brag about how the new status symbol hits for a few more points of damage after farming the shinola out of the new content and achieving everything they want out of it in the first week or less. Just have to remember to wipe the blood off the eyesockets before going into work. :p

For the rest of us its a car show, as we gander at what they have, which accomplishes the same thing as what the rest of us have when in action does, albeit with a shinier more updated model.

[Kilbar]

ASAH provides another way to not play the game. If people are looking for loot, they dont need to run quests when they can just buy it from the ASAH. ASAH takes a reason out of looking /forming a group looking for loot.

Gear doesnt suddenly make your character more powerful. Its how you utilize that power that makes your character more powerful. People complain about groups not knowing how to play, but they have the gear that they think qualifies them to run hardest difficulties?

You dont have to play a PVP game to have P2W. Turbine changed the meaning of P2W with DDO and other MMOs followed suit. More MMOs are changing and new ones are creating a F2P system that offers ways to bypass time and grind restrictions. Its been quite successful or DDO would have failed it by now and other MMOs would stop following their lead.

WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH HOW PEOPLE PLAY THE GAME??? Seriously, listen to yourself, "ASAH provides another way to not play the game". And this troubles you why, exactly?

[Chai]

WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH HOW PEOPLE PLAY THE GAME??? Seriously, listen to yourself, "ASAH provides another way to not play the game". And this troubles you why, exactly?

Where did he say he cared about how other people play the game. I see this argument alot, and Ive never seen it used by someone who quoted text that actually talked about how the person quoted gives a rip about how others play the game. Its not troubling, its hilarious, because he is right. It DOES provide another way for people to not play the game. Whether that is good or bad is a matter of opinion, but paying to not play is true.

[sebastianosmith]

ASAH provides another way to not play the game the way I think the game should be played. If people are looking for loot, they dont need to run quests with people like me when they can just buy it from the ASAH and save some time. ASAH takes a reason out of looking /forming a group with those like me who want everyone to play the way I do when looking for loot.

You left out a few words...

[HungarianRhapsody]

Tinfoil hat time:
Would anyone be surprised if Turbine started putting some really nice items on the ASAH themselves whether players do so themselves or not?

Every item that Turbine puts up on the ASAH themselves has a 100% profit margin for them instead of the 30% or 40% profit margin that they rake off from items that we put up ourselves.

[Postumus]

DDO on the other hand is a car show, everyone just showing off how uber a character they can make.

only in DDO.....there isn't a first place.


No first place in DDO?!! World.... spinning... reality... imploding...

[Kilbar]

Where did he say he cared about how other people play the game. I see this argument alot, and Ive never seen it used by someone who quoted text that actually talked about how the person quoted gives a rip about how others play the game. Its not troubling, its hilarious, because he is right. It DOES provide another way for people to not play the game. Whether that is good or bad is a matter of opinion, but paying to not play is true.

He says "if people are looking for loot", not "if I am looking for loot". Thus my quoted text can reasonably be assumed to apply to people other than himself. He seems very clearly put out that there will be people other than himself playing the game in a way that he doesn't consider to be playing the game.

[Chai]

You left out a few words...

Nope, he left out the personal discussion, because this isnt one, until you put words into his mouth attempting to turn it into one, when it isnt.

[Chai]

He says "if people are looking for loot", not "if I am looking for loot". Thus my quoted text can reasonably be assumed to apply to people other than himself. He seems very clearly put out that there will be people other than himself playing the game in a way that he doesn't consider to be playing the game.

Nope. He isnt put out in the slightest. He is just stating it as fact. People can either play for loot or they can pay for loot. Paying for loot is then paying to not play for loot. Theres nothing personal about it whatsoever. Of course in order to attempt to refute his stance, people get personal and try and misrepresent what he said first in order to attempt to make his stance look worse than it actually is.

[Chai]

Tinfoil hat time:
Would anyone be surprised if Turbine started putting some really nice items on the ASAH themselves whether players do so themselves or not?

Every item that Turbine puts up on the ASAH themselves has a 100% profit margin for them instead of the 30% or 40% profit margin that they rake off from items that we put up ourselves.

Wouldnt surprise me a bit. Turbine will never need to sell loot in the store, because they can put it up on the ASAH. Will save alot of time dealing with forum riots and whatnot. Since it is an anonymous buying/selling environment, no one will know the difference.

[sebastianosmith]

Where did he say he cared about how other people play the game.


ASAH provides another way to not play the game.

Qhualor states that there is more than one way to NOT PLAY the game. This implies that there must be one or more CORRECT WAYS to play the game. A further implication can be assumed that because Qhualor knows of several ways to NOT PLAY play the game, he must also be cognizant of the CORRECT WAYS of playing the game. His concern over this can be identified by the fact that he has taken the time to post on these forums about it; repeatedly. An uncaring or apathetic individual would not perform theses actions. While his exact degree of concern remains undetermined, we can surmise that some base level does exist.

[Kilbar]

Nope. He isnt put out in the slightest. He is just stating it as fact. People can either play for loot or they can pay for loot. Paying for loot is then paying to not play for loot. Theres nothing personal about it whatsoever. Of course in order to attempt to refute his stance, people get personal and try and misrepresent what he said first in order to make his stance look worse than it actually is.

That's your interpretation. I believe you are wrong. I also take issue with your accusation that I am misrepresenting what he is saying, as I am giving my own interpretation in complete good faith. You are, of course, free to disagree with it, but I'll thank you to not call me a disingenuous liar. If I didn't believe what I wrote, I wouldn't have written it.

[Postumus]

He says "if people are looking for loot", not "if I am looking for loot". Thus my quoted text can reasonably be assumed to apply to people other than himself. He seems very clearly put out that there will be people other than himself playing the game in a way that he doesn't consider to be playing the game.


Dude, if you are going to go to Chicago, I recommend you bring lots of scotch, advil, and any beta-blockers you have lying around.

[Kilbar]

Dude, if you are going to go to Chicago, I recommend you bring lots of scotch, advil, and any beta-blockers you have lying around.

I... Don't get it.

[sebastianosmith]

Nope, he left out the personal discussion, because this isnt one, until you put words into his mouth attempting to turn it into one, when it isnt.

I put no words in his mouth. I inferred meaning from his statement. There is a vast difference in the two.

[Darthbadger]

Tinfoil hat time:
Would anyone be surprised if Turbine started putting some really nice items on the ASAH themselves whether players do so themselves or not?

Every item that Turbine puts up on the ASAH themselves has a 100% profit margin for them instead of the 30% or 40% profit margin that they rake off from items that we put up ourselves.

This seems so obvious as to be unstated. Why sell something for 100% profit when you can add a self made middle man and take an additional 40%? This way you can sell Esos ingredients all stealth like

Genius. Tinfoil hat firmly on, tyvm

[HungarianRhapsody]

I put no words in his mouth. I inferred meaning from his statement. There is a vast difference in the two.

You inserted words directly in his quote while leaving the quote marks intact to make it appear that he was saying those words. That's pretty much exactly what "putting words in his mouth" means.

It's obvious that you were not claiming that he directly said those exact words, but you're still blatantly claiming that his words actually meant what you changed them to.

I personally find the ASAH disturbing, but it's not because of what we can buy/sell on there now. It's because we can all see the writing on the wall and we should all know what's coming after we get used to the ASAH. If we can't sell BtC or BtA loot that is BtC/BtAonAcquire by the end of 2014, I'll eat my hat. And I really like my hat.

[Rhomnibus]

http://www.pennyr.plus.com/AstralShiz.jpg

[ThePrincipal]

Pay to play/win is fine with me. What other people buy does not directly impact me.

[Chai]

Qhualor states that there is more than one way to NOT PLAY the game. This implies that there must be one or more CORRECT WAYS to play the game. A further implication can be assumed that because Qhualor knows of several ways to NOT PLAY play the game, he must also be cognizant of the CORRECT WAYS of playing the game. His concern over this can be identified by the fact that he has taken the time to post on these forums about it; repeatedly. An uncaring or apathetic individual would not perform theses actions. While his exact degree of concern remains undetermined, we can surmise that some base level does exist.

Im not asking for "implications"

I asked where he stated he CARED about how others play the game. The personal discussion is 100% on your end. The implication is also 100% assumed on your part, as there is no implication about any correct way to play the game, only a statement that people can pay to not play. All the other words that turn it into a personal discussion were provided by yourself.

[jillie]

DDO is pay to loose:

- vips that get treated as 5 month old babies, they pay a quote and have to pay same stuff as other players (expansions, etc)

- players that get special offers "that never will see again", next month released again, even at cheaper prize

- check the ASAH, then check the cost of AS via TP: 500 AS = 2,8k TP, for less than 500 AS you will find only trash, most times not even epic hard

so like i said before: ddo is pay to loose, only a loser would pay to win in this game, in rest of games at least you have some respect, here you pay today, and tomorrow turbine spits on your food

btw, turbine is gonna lose tons of money with ASAH, before they relesed it you could see some non-abusive trades with TP codes in the forum, with the ASAH as "current prize" you won't see same prizes again = great decrease in TP codes sold/month

and pretty sure nobody is gonna buy AS right now, would be quite silly looking at the offer

btw, otto's box for 4-5k ASAH in thelanis, quite... funny? lol

So we can expect that you'll be moving on to a game where you'd "have some respect?"

[Systern]

Now, turbine has made in-game items purchasable for astral shards. This implies that one can go buy a pile of astral shards for real money, and then convert those shards into items, effectively buying any item on the auction house for irl cash.


So if someone has ALLLLL the best stuff in the game, people MIGHT no longer think they're an un-showered basement-dweller, but might think they're fiscally irresponsible?


OH NOES!

:P

[maximus123123]

Whether you pay in terms of time spent or money, you're still paying.
For some of us, our time is more valuable than a little bit of money.

Also, Turbine is not a charity. It is a for profit company. They have the right to make as much money as possible and it is possible by tapping those of us who covet our time more than we do money.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Whether you pay in terms of time spent or money, you're still paying.
For some of us, our time is more valuable than a little bit of money.

Also, Turbine is not a charity. It is a for profit company. They have the right to make as much money as possible and it is possible by tapping those of us who covet our time more than we do money.

If your time is so valuable that you want to pay money to avoid playing the game, then why are you playing the game in the first place?

[maximus123123]

If your time is so valuable that you want to pay money to avoid playing the game, then why are you playing the game in the first place?

Because I enjoy playing the game.
I just don't want to *LIVE* in the game 24/7 in order to gear up.

[sebastianosmith]

Im not asking for "implications"

But you will accept he cares about something given his repeated posts on the subject. Point for me. :)



I asked where he stated he CARED about how others play the game. The personal discussion is 100% on your end. The implication is also 100% assumed on your part, as there is no implication about any correct way to play the game, only a statement that people can pay to not play. All the other words that turn it into a personal discussion were provided by yourself.

Oh, this is not personal at all. I do not claim to represent the payer base in toto. I can, however, hang together a cogent argument without resorting to attempted misdirection.

"People can pay to not play" - interesting statement. I suppose it depends on how one defines "play". Obviously Qhualor defines it with a certain perspective; one that, and forgive me for using English in such a grammatical fashion, implies he disproves of such practices. If we are expected to disregard all inferred meaning, implied or not, we have assumed a most cumbersome means of exchange. As someone who bases entire multi-paged discussions on obscure definitions, I should think you of all people would see the value of implication. "Pay to not play" - a most interesting statement indeed.

[maximus123123]

It's obvious that he didn't say those words with his own typing, but it's also obvious that you were claiming that what you added was what his words actually meant. And whatever you might call that, you are incorrect in your understanding of his words.

The entire problem with "pay-to-win" in all of its various forms isn't that people are paying money to play the game in a different way. They're paying money to avoid playing the game. Once upon a time, Turbine got money for letting people play the game. That was a good model. Now, Turbine also gets money for letting people avoid playing the game. That model has some serious problems because it encourages Turbine to build annoying "features" into the game play just so that we can bypass those "features" by paying extra money. That's not a good model.

It's called a business model.
It might help to recall that Turbine is a for profit company not a charitable institution dedicated to your free playing enjoyment.

Or to put another way, the more money they make, the more artists/developers/programmers they can hire to expand this game.

[HAL]

I look at it this way: lets say you stop talking about DDO, and change it to something like poker.

What kind of game would you get if, for sake of argument, if a player could buy a full house? I dunno. I'm sure after the thrill of winning the first ten hands wears off, you'd get quickly bored, and move on to something else. Mainly because people play games for the challenge, and not to just simply win.

I'm with the contingent that says buying stuff with TP for epic equipment is going to kill this game (amongst other things).

Poker is a game you play AGAINST the other players. The object is to get their money from them. It is not a game in which you cooperate WITH the other players in order to get stuff from a third party.

[HungarianRhapsody]

It's called a business model.
It might help to recall that Turbine is a for profit company not a charitable institution dedicated to your free playing enjoyment.

Or to put another way, the more money they make, the more artists/developers/programmers they can hire to expand this game.

I do recall that Turbine is a for profit company and not a charitable institution dedicated to my free playing enjoyment. I've given Turbine a substantial amount of money in exchange for the enjoyment that I've obtained from playing the game. I consider that a fair trade.

I like playing the game. I enjoy the game. It's why I play the game. I want to continue to enjoy the game. I don't want Turbine to build artificial "farmville" style annoyances into the game that make the game no longer fun just to encourage me to pay them additional money to avoid the parts of the game that are not fun. Instead of deliberately designing parts of the game that are not fun so that we end up paying to skip them, I want Turbine to design a game that *is* fun.

I don't think that's a difficult position to understand. Or to put it another way, the more fun content they design, the more money I'll pay them so that they can hire designers/programmers/artists/QA staff and make a healthy profit as well. I'm delighted to pay for quality content. I'm not going to pay for content that is so bad that it makes people want to pay extra money to avoid it.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Because I enjoy playing the game.
I just don't want to *LIVE* in the game 24/7 in order to gear up.

If you enjoy playing the game, then play the game. There is no need to *LIVE* in the game 24/7 in order to gear up. Just play the game.

If you think that the time that you've spent playing the game is "payment" for something that you're getting in return, then I don't understand your perspective at all. I play the game because it is fun. I don't play the game because I want Turbine to pay me. I paid them for the privilege of playing the game in the first place.

[sebastianosmith]

It's obvious that he didn't say those words with his own typing, but it's also obvious that you were claiming that what you added was what his words actually meant. And whatever you might call that, you are incorrect in your understanding of his words.

How can I be incorrect in my understanding of what he wrote? It was there. I read it. I came to an understanding using my knowledge of humanity, English and rather long history with both. Are you suggesting there is something wrong with me physically? Something that would cause total misunderstanding in the reading my native tongue? With that, sir, I must take offense.



The entire problem with "pay-to-win" in all of its various forms isn't that people are paying money to play the game in a different way. They're paying money to avoid playing the game.

And, exactly, just how do you know people are not playing content that may contain an item after gaining that item by paying for it? Have you done so and, by extension, place the same onus on all? Why do you assume that what motivates you to play is the ONLY motivation to play? That is the height of hubris and what I and many others who comment about these P2W arguments find so very egregious. There are as many reasons for playing as there are people playing. Don't make the mistake of thinking we are all like you.

[eonfreon]

I do recall that Turbine is a for profit company and not a charitable institution dedicated to my free playing enjoyment. I've given Turbine a substantial amount of money in exchange for the enjoyment that I've obtained from playing the game. I consider that a fair trade.

I like playing the game. I enjoy the game. It's why I play the game. I want to continue to enjoy the game. I don't want Turbine to build artificial "farmville" style annoyances into the game that make the game no longer fun just to encourage me to pay them additional money to avoid the parts of the game that are not fun. Instead of deliberately designing parts of the game that are not fun so that we end up paying to skip them, I want Turbine to design a game that *is* fun.

I don't think that's a difficult position to understand. Or to put it another way, the more fun content they design, the more money I'll pay them so that they can hire designers/programmers/artists/QA staff and make a healthy profit as well. I'm delighted to pay for quality content. I'm not going to pay for content that is so bad that it makes people want to pay extra money to avoid it.

What part of the content is so bad that paying money to avoid it is tempting?

[Ape_Man]

DDO has been p2w since spell point potions were addeed to the store. Nothing added after that is as game-warping.

pretty much. None of this P2Win stuff is nearly as game breaking as this and it's been in the store since F2P's inception.

[Qhualor]

WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH HOW PEOPLE PLAY THE GAME??? Seriously, listen to yourself, "ASAH provides another way to not play the game". And this troubles you why, exactly?

Its already hard enough to find/form groups, we dont need another reason to not play or group. Looking at the lfm, its always the same quests and the same grind, theres not much variety. Theres been many doom threads about this and people think the cause is the game is dying. This frustrates people when they want to group. Instead they have to solo, shortman or play a quest that is more popular and easier to fill.

[HungarianRhapsody]

How can I be incorrect in my understanding of what he wrote? It was there. I read it. I came to an understanding using my knowledge of humanity, English and rather long history with both. Are you suggesting there is something wrong with me physically? Something that would cause total misunderstanding in the reading my native tongue? With that, sir, I must take offense.

"Your understanding" = what you *think* he meant based on the words he wrote, etc.
When I say that your understanding was incorrect, I am saying that what you think he meant based on the words he wrote, etc. is not a correct interpretation of what he actually said. What you think he said is not what he actually said.

If you wish to take offense at that because you incorrectly interpreted what he said and because you think that implies that something is physically wrong with you, then that's your business. I'm not claiming that there is something physically wrong with you. I'm just saying that you misunderstood what he wrote even though it was written in your native tongue.



And, exactly, just how do you know people are not playing content that may contain an item after gaining that item by paying for it? Have you done so and, by extension, place the same onus on all? Why do you assume that what motivates you to play is the ONLY motivation to play? That is the height of hubris and what I and many others who comment about these P2W arguments find so very egregious. There are as many reasons for playing as there are people playing. Don't make the mistake of thinking we are all like you.

I'm not claiming that people stop playing content that may contain an item after paying for that item. I'm saying that they didn't play that quest/raid/chain/whatever in the first place in order to get that item. I am not making any claims of motivation. I'm only observing that people are saying that they want to pay for an item instead of running the quest/raid/chain/whatever to obtain that item through game play. That requires no analysis of anyone's motivation. It only requires that I read the posts where people say that they want to pay for an item because they don't want to run that quest/raid/chain/whatever umpteen times.

Are you now going to pretend that I'm implying that there is something physically wrong with you because you utterly failed to understand something that I wrote even though I wrote it in your native language? Your problem in understanding doesn't come from any failure to read what is written. Your problem in understanding comes from the fact that you invent additional motives and implications from that writing even though they don't exist.

[HungarianRhapsody]

What part of the content is so bad that paying money to avoid it is tempting?

Apparently quite a lot of it is since there is a significant demand for this sort of thing. I'm not tempted to pay money to bypass content, but the fact that so many people are demanding these bypasses indicates that there is content that people would rather skip.

[eonfreon]

Apparently quite a lot of it is since there is a significant demand for this sort of thing. I'm not tempted to pay money to bypass content, but the fact that so many people are demanding these bypasses indicates that there is content that people would rather skip.

Yes, but you said you don't want to play a game where content or grind is designed to be so bad that paying to circumvent it is required. Yet, I don't see much content designed that way. Which content do you see that is "bad"? Which is designed to be "bypassed"?

If someone else wants to bypass a part of the game, it is on them. As long as the game is still fun to play to me, I have no issue with someone not liking some aspect and wishing to bypass it. There is no game that is 100% fun all the time. There will always be issues with what someone does or doesn't like. If you can still play the way you like, what is the problem? Or is it a hypothetical thing? That Turbine will create such a system if we "let" them?

I can see some arbitrary scaling, such as xp requirements of TRing making it desirable to buy xp pots and such, but more free xp has also been implemented into the game, so it's all a matter of how much you really want to play the game. There is nothing forcing anyone to spend money, other than to acquire the content and even that can be gotten with TPs which can be grinded in-game for. There are as many ways to avoid paying anything as there are incentives to pay.

As for the "death of grouping" or such, as brought up by Qhualor, I think it's overstated. One way to insure you almost always have people to group with is to belong to a guild and also befriend other players. At regular times I have no problem putting up LFMs and getting full or near-full groups, for just about any quest. "Short-manning" is not a bad thing, as long as you have a few decent players with you there really should be no problem getting quests done. Communication goes a long way. I actually lead groups and make friends. It's not that tough to do.

[Qhualor]

You left out a few words...

You dont agree with my opinion, so you butcher my post to say something i did not say or even insinuate to say. I could do the same to your posts, but i like to think im bigger than that and can form a reasonable rebuttal without resorting to post changes to make a point.

[Chai]

But you will accept he cares about something given his repeated posts on the subject. Point for me. :)

Nope. I will let him state what he cares about and what he doesnt.


Oh, this is not personal at all. I do not claim to represent the payer base in toto. I can, however, hang together a cogent argument without resorting to attempted misdirection.

Each one of the phrases you inserted turned his statement into something personal regarding him directly. If its not personal, youd refrain from such practices as inserting preassumed personal stances on the issue into a posters quote that was not stated by the poster themselves. Adressing what was actually posted isnt that hard, though you might have a hard time refuting what was actually posted, which is why the personal discussion


"People can pay to not play" - interesting statement. I suppose it depends on how one defines "play". Obviously Qhualor defines it with a certain perspective; one that, and forgive me for using English in such a grammatical fashion, implies he disproves of such practices. If we are expected to disregard all inferred meaning, implied or not, we have assumed a most cumbersome means of exchange. As someone who bases entire multi-paged discussions on obscure definitions, I should think you of all people would see the value of implication. "Pay to not play" - a most interesting statement indeed.

Oh here we are defining every single term which already has a definition again. The definitions of the terms I use are not obscure - the only people who argue as such are those in disagreement with my position on the issue. I take note of each time they argue this rather than addressing the actual stance, as its a clear indication of having made a point that is too solid to refute - thus the heavy resorting to debating every term and semantic used, rather than addressing the topic itself. Pretty soon it sounds like a Clinton impeachment, it all depends on what the definition if "is" is your honor...

[sebastianosmith]

"Your understanding" = what you *think* he meant based on the words he wrote, etc....

You needed to stop right there. The rest of it was nothing more than an attempted justification of your interpretation of what was written. When you just rambled on, you strayed way over into Hypocrisy Land. Buy a T-Shirt.



I'm not claiming that people stop playing content that may contain an item after paying for that item. I'm saying that they didn't play that quest/raid/chain/whatever in the first place in order to get that item. I am not making any claims of motivation. I'm only observing that people are saying that they want to pay for an item instead of running the quest/raid/chain/whatever to obtain that item through game play. That requires no analysis of anyone's motivation. It only requires that I read the posts where people say that they want to pay for an item because they don't want to run that quest/raid/chain/whatever umpteen times.

Ahhhh. You don't like those that make a choice to spend money instead of game time to acquire items. I guess that does make them super-powered with effort expended outside what you'd consider proper channels. Those lazy working people with their limited time, familial responsibilities and overflowing coffers. We should all aspire to be like you; adopt your abilities and playing habits; realize that yours is the one, true path. Then, and only then, will we be worthy of those coveted prizes.



Are you now going to pretend that I'm implying that there is something physically wrong with you because you utterly failed to understand something that I wrote even though I wrote it in your native language? Your problem in understanding doesn't come from any failure to read what is written. Your problem in understanding comes from the fact that you invent additional motives and implications from that writing even though they don't exist.

You really don't pick up on satire do you? Oh, well. And I don't "invent additional motives and implications". I read. I interpret. Same as you. We come to different conclusions likely based around our predispositions. That's the nature of discussion.

Have a good rest of the day. :)

[HungarianRhapsody]

Yes, but you said you don't want to play a game where content or grind is designed to be so bad that paying to circumvent it is required. Yet, I don't see much content designed that way. Which content do you see that is "bad"? Which is designed to be "bypassed"?

Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood what you were getting at the first time.

The biggest problem that I have is the fact that this appears to be a trend and that Turbine is steadily heading in the Farmville direction. I have a few problems with where they are today, but my primary concern is where they are headed in the future as they continue along this path. When "pay to not play" enters the equation, the temptation grows to add additional annoyances solely for the purpose of making a profit off of skipping those annoyances.

Zynga made a fortune off of that business model and I'd prefer to see Turbine stick to the "pay us for a great game" rather than "pay us for an annoying game that you can pay extra to turn into a great game".

There have been some positive signs from Turbine. The biggest positive sign that I have seen in recent years is when they made N/H/E unlocked for VIP and made N/H unlocked for second life characters of all flavors and N/H/E unlocked for 3rd+ lives even though they had "unlock keys" available in the store. That was a great move as far as I was concerned and I believe that moves like that will create more long term profit for Turbine than any quick money grab of "pay to avoid annoyance" will get them.

[HungarianRhapsody]

you strayed way over into Hypocrisy Land. Buy a T-Shirt.

I should point out that the T-Shirts that they have for sale are terrible. They have cool slogans on
them, but the tags at the back of the neck are super itchy and if you tear them out, the shirt rips. Stick to the traditional Hanes T-Shirts if you're going to wear them under a shirt.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Ahhhh. You don't like those that make a choice to spend money instead of game time to acquire items.

And here we have yet ANOTHER example of you inventing motives and implications where they don't exist.

You'll have an easier time understanding what I write if you read what I write instead of reading what you imagine that I would have written if I were the straw man that exists in your mind.

[sebastianosmith]

You dont agree with my opinion, so you butcher my post to say something i did not say or even insinuate to say. I could do the same to your posts, but i like to think im bigger than that and can form a reasonable rebuttal without resorting to post changes to make a point.

No, I don't agree with your opinion.

The last thing I butchered was a steak.

I never claimed you said anything and made that quite clear. See, that's how my opinion shows itself. You don't have to agree with it either.

Feel free to turn my posts into whatever you'd care. You have my permission, not that you need it.

You have fun way up there on that high ground. I hear the view is spectacular but the accommodations are simply dismal.

You take care and have a good evening. :)

[Seikojin]

DDO has been p2w since spell point potions were addeed to the store. Nothing added after that is as game-warping.

I completely agree with this. LOL

Ultimately P2W is a balance issue. If you can pay cash ultimately, to get a serious advantage, that is numerically improbable otherwise, then you are paying to win. The SP pots is a great example. You can buy way beyond the drop rate in game, and therefore never, ever be without the SP to dominate. Never needing a shrine, never having a repair bill.

I guess VIP is p2w. LOL

[Scraap]

Win? No.
Skip? Getting there.

[NaturalHazard]

Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood what you were getting at the first time.

The biggest problem that I have is the fact that this appears to be a trend and that Turbine is steadily heading in the Farmville direction. I have a few problems with where they are today, but my primary concern is where they are headed in the future as they continue along this path. When "pay to not play" enters the equation, the temptation grows to add additional annoyances solely for the purpose of making a profit off of skipping those annoyances.

Zynga made a fortune off of that business model and I'd prefer to see Turbine stick to the "pay us for a great game" rather than "pay us for an annoying game that you can pay extra to turn into a great game".

There have been some positive signs from Turbine. The biggest positive sign that I have seen in recent years is when they made N/H/E unlocked for VIP and made N/H unlocked for second life characters of all flavors and N/H/E unlocked for 3rd+ lives even though they had "unlock keys" available in the store. That was a great move as far as I was concerned and I believe that moves like that will create more long term profit for Turbine than any quick money grab of "pay to avoid annoyance" will get them.

^^^^ this is how I feel on the matter but you said it better than I ever could +1, they have done some good things, and some questionable ones as well that have has made me more reluctant to pull the wallet out to invest in a game where im so unsure of the direction in which it is heading.

[sebastianosmith]

Nope. I will let him state what he cares about and what he doesnt.

How noble.


Each one of the phrases you inserted turned his statement into something personal regarding him directly.

It's called satirical parody. I'd suggest you try it some time, but I'm not quite certain, more hopeful really, that you aren't already...


If its not personal, youd refrain from such practices as inserting preassumed personal stances on the issue into a posters quote that was not stated by the poster themselves. Adressing what was actually posted isnt that hard, though you might have a hard time refuting what was actually posted, which is why the personal discussion

Well, you certainly don't waste any time getting personal while berating others for being personal. It is something personal or simply a personal thing?



The definitions of the terms I use are not obscure - the only people who argue as such are those in disagreement with my position on the issue.

You don't say?!?! The only people who argue with you are those who have a disagreement with your position? I think you may be onto something there.


I take note of each time they argue this rather than addressing the actual stance, as its a clear indication of having made a point that is too solid to refute - thus the heavy resorting to debating every term and semantic used, rather than addressing the topic itself. Pretty soon it sounds like a Clinton impeachment, it all depends on what the definition if "is" is your honor...

So, you're keeping a personal "list" of people that "disagree" with you because anything they say can't possibly be a solid counterargument to your points... hummmm. Boy, it must be tiresome being you.

You have a good evening. :)

[eonfreon]

Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood what you were getting at the first time.

The biggest problem that I have is the fact that this appears to be a trend and that Turbine is steadily heading in the Farmville direction. I have a few problems with where they are today, but my primary concern is where they are headed in the future as they continue along this path. When "pay to not play" enters the equation, the temptation grows to add additional annoyances solely for the purpose of making a profit off of skipping those annoyances.

Zynga made a fortune off of that business model and I'd prefer to see Turbine stick to the "pay us for a great game" rather than "pay us for an annoying game that you can pay extra to turn into a great game".

There have been some positive signs from Turbine. The biggest positive sign that I have seen in recent years is when they made N/H/E unlocked for VIP and made N/H unlocked for second life characters of all flavors and N/H/E unlocked for 3rd+ lives even though they had "unlock keys" available in the store. That was a great move as far as I was concerned and I believe that moves like that will create more long term profit for Turbine than any quick money grab of "pay to avoid annoyance" will get them.


I understand the concerns and do share them to a degree. But the people who "pay to avoid annoyance" are the people who just don't have time for the game or something. They care about the destination, not the journey. I suppose there could be a danger of Turbine creating new artificial barriers that are so onerous that almost everyone would rather pay to acquire it, but I think they have a decent grasp of the situation. They know that too much will drive far too many people away.

But the people who are annoyed enough to pay are not really my concern. Because the parts that are annoying to me I can simply avoid. And enough of the game is enjoyable that getting the items in question is just a bonus, it doesn't need to be the very reason to play. If someone feels that they absolutely can't deal with the lootgen one more time and want to pay to get a surefire way of acquiring something, I don't really see that as much different from getting plat in-game playing content you like and then buying something at the AH to avoid a quest you don't like because you want a certain item. Yes, now real money enters the equation, but the quality of the game has not taken a nosedive, at least not in my opinion. At least not yet.

However, I do share some of your concerns and distaste for many new store items. I just think they need to be specific concerns and expressed as such. Concepts such as "paying to not play" are hard to rally behind, because the game is more than any one specific quest line or item. Someone may indeed by "paying not to play a certain aspect of the game" but they are still playing another aspect. Very few people just pay to get something and then quit. Those are unlikely to be the people who join PuGs and such anyway. They are far too "serious" about "winning" to take those kinds of chances. They group up in guilds with other powergamers and don't really mix with the general population much anyway.

I don't like the P2W aspects of the game. But I understand that they are there more to placate a certain mindset then anything else. Some people feel the need to "win" as soon as possible. They are the target of the marketing. They are the obsessive impulse buyers that have been prey to marketing ploys for as long as there have been marketing ploys. Most companies and I think to some degree Turbine still understands that those type of obsessive game players are only guaranteed income up to a certain point and that the quality of the game needs to be maintained to keep the more steady income of the people who play games to be entertained, not to "win". Especially a MMO.

Of course only time will tell. But I dn't think things like the ASAH are enough to truly show a trend. They are part of a whole. In the last updates we've seen new content, new classes, new abilities, and revamped old content. That something is also added to generate more revenue is pretty much expected as well. It's not as if every single update for a year or something has been about p2w. Many things have been added to the overall game.

I don't like everything added. But then I don't have to to still enjoy the game overall. They will never keep me fully happy. I'm not shy about complaining as well and telling them how they can get my money.

The bugs are annoying, but they aren't so annoying that the game is unplayable. Some of the content isn't really great design, but then they've always had problems fine-tuning difficulty levels. This isn't anything new. It's been like that since long before f2p and p2w and the ddostore ever existed. That's just the nature of it. Some times they design things really well, sometimes they don't.

[Postumus]

Because I enjoy playing the game.
I just don't want to *LIVE* in the game 24/7 in order to gear up.


I still don't understand why some people don't get this concept. It's a game. It's for fun. Some people's version of fun is grinding out every last thing. Some people's version is TR in five days using xp pots and squeezing xp/min out of 20 quests. Some people's version is paying a few bucks for an otto's box so they can try out the latest ED build without grinding out all 20 levels.

Nobody is wrong here. So why do time spenders seem to get upset at money spenders more than any other group. Why is that? Defenders of the Grind seem to be on some righteous quest of the 'purity of the game.' A video game. A trivial, nothing, everything gone and every achievement forgotten in ten years video game that people play as a fun diversion.

[squishwizzy]

Watch this logic. At no time will my hands leave my wrist.

Poker requires a buy-in to play Any content and pays off in Real Money.

Not all poker games require money.


Some is part of Any.

Therefore you cannot say some is part of any.

Maybe next time you should try *real* logic before attempting this type of stuff.

This sounds like some of the clap-trap that your average Harvard grad uses to try an obfuscate a discussion.

[Uma-Quixote]

I've waded through 6 pages of this "pay to win" nonesense and by my reckoning there are 19 people who think it represents yet another end of the world as we know it.........
I think the words are Big,Hairy Deal.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I still don't understand why some people don't get this concept. It's a game. It's for fun. Some people's version of fun is grinding out every last thing. Some people's version is TR in five days using xp pots and squeezing xp/min out of 20 quests. Some people's version is paying a few bucks for an otto's box so they can try out the latest ED build without grinding out all 20 levels.

Nobody is wrong here. So why do time spenders seem to get upset at money spenders more than any other group. Why is that? Defenders of the Grind seem to be on some righteous quest of the 'purity of the game.' A video game. A trivial, nothing, everything gone and every achievement forgotten in ten years video game that people play as a fun diversion.

Just to be clear - I'm not at all upset with players who want to buy shiny trinkets with their cash. I'm unhappy with Turbine for heading down a path that heads toward Farmville.

[sebastianosmith]

This sounds like some of the clap-trap that your average Harvard grad uses to try an obfuscate a discussion.

You think I sound as if I matriculated Harvard! Sweet!

The real clap-trap here is asserting that DDO and poker can be compared equitably. The logic I employed was far and away more cohesive than yours. The fallacies in it were meant to highlight the absurdity of your analogy. I suppose one has to resonate with the air of a Harvard alumnus in order appreciate such subtly.

[Postumus]

Just to be clear - I'm not at all upset with players who want to buy shiny trinkets with their cash. I'm unhappy with Turbine for heading down a path that heads toward Farmville.


Gotcha. We just disagree on how far down the road to Farmville DDO has gone. Having actually played Farmville, I think this game has a many miles of road before it approaches anything near that game. Now can you come tend my crops? I want to run the Lordsmarch chain again.

[Qhualor]

I still don't understand why some people don't get this concept. It's a game. It's for fun. Some people's version of fun is grinding out every last thing. Some people's version is TR in five days using xp pots and squeezing xp/min out of 20 quests. Some people's version is paying a few bucks for an otto's box so they can try out the latest ED build without grinding out all 20 levels.

Nobody is wrong here. So why do time spenders seem to get upset at money spenders more than any other group. Why is that? Defenders of the Grind seem to be on some righteous quest of the 'purity of the game.' A video game. A trivial, nothing, everything gone and every achievement forgotten in ten years video game that people play as a fun diversion.

its the balance of the game that is affected, not how or what people spend money on or that we don't want Turbine to make money. this is the part that I don't understand. why do people think that people who are against P2W care about how or what they spend their money on? why do people think that the people against P2W think Turbine is evil? its the BALANCE of the game that can be manipulated by people who spend money offered by Turbine. ASAH takes away a reason to run quests which makes it that much harder to find and form groups. how many complaint threads have we seen in the past 6 months alone?

right now, ASAH is for limited bound items. do we really think its going to stop there? I firmly don't believe so and all the talk in the past about raid loot and other top end loot ending up in the store will eventually be realized with the ASAH. as long as there are other available options in the game, ASAH and store items wont be considered full blown P2W, but we know that people will prefer to spend if they can than to actually put effort into their character by playing the game.

the fun can get taken away from people who prefer to play than to buy their levels or buy their loot. DDO is supposed to be a social game and ive seen more ways than 1 that makes it possible to be anti social. quests have been dumbed down to be easy. EDS make characters powerful and they trounce over anything not EGH and FR and even then some say they are able to do. ive seen a lot more solo achievements lately. ive seen complaints from people who cant form groups to run raids/quests because its gotten almost to the point that we run them for xp and fun and that's about it.

[squishwizzy]

You think I sound as if I matriculated Harvard! Sweet!

The real clap-trap here is asserting that DDO and poker can be compared equitably. The logic I employed was far and away more cohesive than yours. The fallacies in it were meant to highlight the absurdity of your analogy. I suppose one has to resonate with the air of a Harvard alumnus in order appreciate such subtly.

Cohesive?

You needed a whole roll of scotch tape to hold together the drivel you spouted (if drivel can actually be held together with adhesive).

The reality of the situation is that this type of entertainment is based off the premise that it will be a challenge. Once you remove the challenge of winning by simply substituting money, the enjoyment of the game will wane - quickly, I might add - for a large number of people who play it.

The same can be said of poker if, instead of playing the hand that you are dealt, you can buy a better hand.

Or - hold on to your seat, because this'll be a wild ride for you - if you can't get the equipment or augments you need to boost your toon via loot or plat, you just go buy them from the DDO store.

Wow! What a huge intellectual leap!

In fact, I even think Rod Serling caught onto this concept at one point, and made a Twilight Zone episode on the very same subject. Imagine that!

I dunno. All this thinkin' stuff may be a bit too much for you...

[maximus123123]

The reality of the situation is that this type of entertainment is based off the premise that it will be a challenge. Once you remove the challenge of winning by simply substituting money, the enjoyment of the game will wane - quickly, I might add - for a large number of people who play it.

The same can be said of poker if, instead of playing the hand that you are dealt, you can buy a better hand.

Or - hold on to your seat, because this'll be a wild ride for you - if you can't get the equipment or augments you need to boost your toon via loot or plat, you just go buy them from the DDO store.

Wow! What a huge intellectual leap!

In fact, I even think Rod Serling caught onto this concept at one point, and made a Twilight Zone episode on the very same subject. Imagine that!

I dunno. All this thinkin' stuff may be a bit too much for you...

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe the game is all about collecting items or playing to have fun.
I want to buy my gear so I can have fun playing the quests I enjoy instead of grinding ones I do not enjoy.

I don't consider it a "challenge" to run the same quest 50 times to try to farm out a piece of gear.

Sell all the items that you could possibly find or craft in the DDO store and this game will be a whole lot funner in my opinion.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe the game is all about collecting items or playing to have fun.
I want to buy my gear so I can have fun playing the quests I enjoy instead of grinding ones I do not enjoy.

I don't consider it a "challenge" to run the same quest 50 times to try to farm out a piece of gear.

Sell all the items that you could possibly find or craft in the DDO store and this game will be a whole lot funner in my opinion.

And this right here is one of the many reason why I object to being able to buy the gear that people think is "needed" to run quests.

When folks are able to buy their gear for real $, then Turbine doesn't have any incentive to fix the drop rates of appropriate items. The problem isn't that people can buy items from each other. The problem is that when things have an inappropriate drop rate, Turbine now just tells us to go pay real world money for it instead of fixing the inappropriate drop rate.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Gotcha. We just disagree on how far down the road to Farmville DDO has gone. Having actually played Farmville, I think this game has a many miles of road before it approaches anything near that game. Now can you come tend my crops? I want to run the Lordsmarch chain again.

I will as soon as you pay Facebook a dollar to send me the link to your farm so I can click on it. :)

[Missing_Minds]

Just to be clear - I'm not at all upset with players who want to buy shiny trinkets with their cash. I'm unhappy with Turbine for heading down a path that heads toward Farmville.

You do realize their primary microtransation director is from Zynga, don't you?

[Karavek]

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe the game is all about collecting items or playing to have fun.
I want to buy my gear so I can have fun playing the quests I enjoy instead of grinding ones I do not enjoy.

I don't consider it a "challenge" to run the same quest 50 times to try to farm out a piece of gear.

Sell all the items that you could possibly find or craft in the DDO store and this game will be a whole lot funner in my opinion.

This above is a very accurate reflection of myself and no few others I encounter in game, feelings about the whole so called pay to win issue.

You see I myself a long time on and off again player can tell you one of the biggest negatives for me over the years was the overwhelming gap in power between hard core item and raid grinders, and the everyday typical player. They act like our ability to keep up hurts their play both for fun and socially, but seem to no grasp how much of a negative impact on ones over all game experience it is to have even one super twinked completionist build slum it in a pug doing something that for them is fairly challenging at lvl, and utterly destroy it. So new comers then learn its better to solo if they dont want someone taking the glory of the quest all for themselves. This has lead to the dieing pug lfm scene imo more then any P2W unless ofcourse people will admit that even though it can be earned in game the main way of TRing is to pay for it and always has, thus completionist truly was pay to win DDO. If that can be agreed upon maybe ill compromise more on more current additions to the games options to buy in.

As some defend the grind, saying it is all how it must be in MMOland, I say nay, for this is a D&D based game, and on that alone it must be different in that aspect as it is in others I dont myself love but some do like the only XP for quest completion or only 3 class limit. Being D&D frankly I expect loot when I defeat a foe, not just random loot, but any special loot specific to that foe, since day one I have felt rubbed raw by DDO not adhering to this most important aspect of PnP. In any other MMO I have zero issue with the grind and random loot drop, but any one daring to carry the mantle of D&D and take advantage of the love that name stirs in many an old dice chuckers breast, then they must understand we dont fight a dragon for a chance at its artifacts, we fight it for the certainty of gain in victory.

[Scraap]

I don't consider it a "challenge" to run the same quest 50 times to try to farm out a piece of gear.

Sell all the items that you could possibly find or craft in the DDO store and this game will be a whole lot funner in my opinion.

Neither do most folks. Why does it seem rational to financially reward them using one system, for creating mechanisms that irritate us in another? Do folks honestly not take that as giving them a sign to keep it up?

[THOTHdha]

They act like our ability to keep up hurts their play both for fun and socially, but seem to no grasp how much of a negative impact on ones over all game experience it is to have even one super twinked completionist build slum it in a pug doing something that for them is fairly challenging at lvl, and utterly destroy it. So new comers then learn its better to solo if they dont want someone taking the glory of the quest all for themselves.

This type of ability generally comes from quest knowledge more than gear or being a completionist. And how do you think that these people obtained such knowledge? Some may have soloed until they knew everything about everything, but much more often they just played with people who knew a thing or two, and learned something from them rather than just trailing behind and taking ten seconds to click on all of the T-bags.

[Chai]

Neither do most folks. Why does it seem rational to financially reward them using one system, for creating mechanisms that irritate us in another? Do folks honestly not take that as giving them a sign to keep it up?

Post of the month, right here folks.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You do realize their primary microtransation director is from Zynga, don't you?

I did not know that.

That makes me very sad.

[Perceval]

Its always been pay to win. Its just been a matter of who you been paying. Plat Farmers, TP Code Bandits, blah blah blah.

Turbine is just trying to cut out the middle man.

Again I ask, who the heck cares what gear, twinks anyone else has unless you PvP and if you PvP....why the heck you want to play this game ?

[sebastianosmith]

The same can be said of poker if, instead of playing the hand that you are dealt, you can buy a better hand.

The same could be said of poker, if you could buy a better hand. Yep. And what variation of poker would that be? Oh yeah - Five Card Most Money Wins the Hand. There ain't no such critter which is why your comparison is BS with a capital S. The very nature of poker precludes this variant as there would be no game to play. DDO has no such limitation nor is it a competitive, winner-take-all stakes game.

Setting up a false analogy doesn't make your logic sound and your pitiful defense of it only serves to further degrade its already non-exist relevance. You may as well have said if frogs were elephants they'd have trunks. While true, utterly irrelevant.

[Perceval]

if frogs were elephants they'd have trunks. While true, utterly irrelevant.

If Barbarians were Clerics, they would cast heal spells. Lets keep it DDO based :)

[HungarianRhapsody]

If Barbarians were Clerics, they would cast heal spells. Lets keep it DDO based :)

This is why you will never see a Shroud run with just Barbarians.

[TBot1234]

The point is that Turbine found a way to untether the relationship between making money and maintaining a quality game. Note that I did not say they WONT maintain a quality game, just that the relationship no longer exists - the driving force for making profit is no longer maintaining a quality game. It is implementing moar p2w, in the form of barrier circumvention and time consumption mitigation. What this means is that the bean counters behind the wheel will make more decisions that will cause more and more resources to be allocated to implementing p2w, while less resources are allocated to fixing issues and ensuring new issues dont occur - which no longer directly drives profit.

Of all the pay-to-win (whatever that really means--we need a less general term) comments I've read, this is the only aspect that resonates with me: quality control may slip. But, many people would say it has already slipped and has been slipping for a long time.

Ultimately, for each DDO player, there may be a point where the game is no longer fun (because of bugs, balance, outdated graphics, or something else), and then that player will move on. No one knows if the new monetization paths will affect the quality of the game.

There does exist the possibility that more revenue for Turbine could lead to greater longevity for the game. Zynga makes over a billion dollars a year. I don't think it's going anywhere soon. On the other hand, Turbine likely earns 50 times less than that and I worry about its survival.

Time will tell, but I am preparing for the worst.

[Menace13]

You can give a player all the loot, gear, items, and a triple completionist. That doesn't mean they know how to play the build, the mob, boss, the thousand miscellaneous quest objectives. How to move/dodge/take cover, swap items, judge sp use, judge hp...

It doesn't make a bad player good. It will not allow me to solo EE raids. Turbine doesn't sell the what, when, and how to play the game at a high level.

I don't like how Turbine implemented the Astral Shard system. The information, or safeguards to prevent spending the shards, was blatantly removed.

Take for example the old common, simple re-spec of enhancements. It used to give you the timer in hours/minutes until your next use. Now, with shards you can by-pass that timer. Which Is awesome. But, why is the timer no longer there? Maybe I have 5 minutes left, maybe a day. Maybe I should just have a bunch of ddo alarm clocks go off all over my house, randomly.

[Postumus]

You do realize their primary microtransation director is from Zynga, don't you?


'Head of technical operations' could mean a lot of things.

[Seikojin]

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe the game is all about collecting items or playing to have fun.
I want to buy my gear so I can have fun playing the quests I enjoy instead of grinding ones I do not enjoy.

I don't consider it a "challenge" to run the same quest 50 times to try to farm out a piece of gear.

Sell all the items that you could possibly find or craft in the DDO store and this game will be a whole lot funner in my opinion.

Honestly, that is the entirety of the game really.

I ultimately don't mind any change they make; as long as they aren't doing something they said they wouldn't. The Shards on the store to the ASAH seem to violate their initial mission statement for Free to Play.

I think what they did with ddo is brilliant. No other f2p game captures the balance of pay for content as ddo does. By this I mean, you earn turbine points through favor. This builds a sense of earning. With that you immediatly assign value and worth for everything that costs points. This ultimately drives you to either spend cash for content, or work for points to buy content. With the shards to items, it is no different. However doing it this way creates a buffer to balance the cost of economy to the cost of points for item worth. Something that would be almost impossible if they tried to do with with TP -> Plat.

[Arnez]

Ok ASAH, don't make us get out the Crucible Bat and use it on you.....


or... in other words

P2W? Better Crucible it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

[Qhualor]

Ok ASAH, don't make us get out the Crucible Bat and use it on you.....


or... in other words

P2W? Better Crucible it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

cant mess with the ASAH. its a gold mine for some who don't have to quest to get their bound loot. there would be so many people upset because they would have to actually play to get it.

[Chai]

The same could be said of poker, if you could buy a better hand. Yep. And what variation of poker would that be? Oh yeah - Five Card Most Money Wins the Hand. There ain't no such critter which is why your comparison is BS with a capital S. The very nature of poker precludes this variant as there would be no game to play. DDO has no such limitation nor is it a competitive, winner-take-all stakes game.

Setting up a false analogy doesn't make your logic sound and your pitiful defense of it only serves to further degrade its already non-exist relevance. You may as well have said if frogs were elephants they'd have trunks. While true, utterly irrelevant.

Thankfully, rolling a 1 on analogy recognition only happens 5% of the time.

[Gremmlynn]

It's almost like everyone in this game is ok with trading real money for pixels to advance their character! You are giving turbine money for doing nothing.

This is the RMAH from diablo 3. Why do so many people in games eat up this fecal matter like it was candy? The fundamental idea behind this concept is flawed.

Also, I have never traded TP codes for items; I assume it wasn't officially supported and was based on the honour system. (that one party in the trade will communicate an unused TP code in exchange for an item).As long as that remains an optional way of doing so I'm fine with it. I just choose not to do so and don't worry about what floats other players' boats.

[jillie]

There does exist the possibility that more revenue for Turbine could lead to greater longevity for the game. Zynga makes over a billion dollars a year. I don't think it's going anywhere soon. On the other hand, Turbine likely earns 50 times less than that and I worry about its survival.

Time will tell, but I am preparing for the worst.

Oh, DDO has at least a couple of years left. As has been pointed out elsewhere on these forums, a company doesn't gear up to produce something large enough to be called an expansion every year without a revenue stream that's showing growth in response to such actions. So the planned expansion pack this summer is a good thing.

If too few people buy it, though, because of the money grab on last year's expansion pack (where they achieved revenue goals and dropped the price right before release to a few bucks to increase market penetration), then I might be joining the rush for the door ...

[1Soulless1]

cant mess with the ASAH. its a gold mine for some who don't have to quest to get their bound loot. there would be so many people upset because they would have to actually play to get it.


Some peoples time is worth more then their money, why is that a problem to you?


Lets say I am a oh I don't know a Rich Doctor who like to play DDO because who doesn't like rich Doctors right? Lets say I have been playing since 2008, so my toons are rather well known and I am in a somewhat good guild. Before I was looking for work/ in residence/ only part time (Fill in the blank) and I had tons of time to grind out 'teh phat lewtz'. But I just started my own clinic/started (fill in the blank) so my time is rather limited but I still love DDO and the friends I made.

So I want to run EE with my guildies/channel friends/ random pug the hardest content because I am sadistic like that, but I don't have the time to grind 'teh ubah phat lewtz' out anymore. Now I do have a wack ton of cash kicking around and before the ASAH came out I could of just bought TP/ money from a plat farmer and almost got the same results. The only thing that the ASAH lets me do is buy BTCoE items that have already been equipped. So now I get to play the content I want with the people I want instead of having to grind out XYZ quest for 'teh new shineyz'.

Personally the only thing I am seeing in your argument is ' I like to pug and I BELIEVE PERSONALLY that if you can just buy your 'teh phat lewtz' people will not pug as much anymore which directly affects my enjoyment of DDO. It's way to early to tell if that is the case.

Personally after getting skunked over 40-60 times on ADQ2 I am willing to buy a Torc if the RMAH or the store starts to sell them. Same deal with a SoS.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Some peoples time is worth more then their money, why is that a problem to you?

If you can't afford the time spent playing DDO, then the best option is to not play DDO.

Just a thought.

[Orratti]

Think I'm going to start my own terminology and say that ddo is not pay to win it is pay to pay.

[Viconiax]

Another pay to win thread...

What could you WIN exactly?...

...Beside friendships and some entertainment.

People worked hard for their money, and if they use it in the game, let them do it, they do spend time working to get their money to pay for this game, right? So the money they get is time-consuming as well, like people spend time farming for loots.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I'm still not seeing what all the fuss is over. Here's my understanding of how this thing works:

Player buys astral shards from Turbine, which they can spend on the AH for bound loot- bound loot that some other player had to pull and then post on the AH with a drastic cut. And we're talking BTCoE, correct? So we'll still be putting Reaver's loot up for rolls.

Someone pulled a thing. Someone else wants to blow money on it, a two step process involving actual cash which presumably cost them some time and effort at a job, which in this scenario isn't far removed from putting time and effort into the game to earn plat. I'm not seeing winners or losers here, and it's not like Turbine selling raid loot directly through the store since some player had to earn said loot in the first place.

So exactly what is everyone unhappy about, other than Turbine making a system arbitrarily complicated and silly?

[Qhualor]

Some peoples time is worth more then their money, why is that a problem to you?


Lets say I am a oh I don't know a Rich Doctor who like to play DDO because who doesn't like rich Doctors right? Lets say I have been playing since 2008, so my toons are rather well known and I am in a somewhat good guild. Before I was looking for work/ in residence/ only part time (Fill in the blank) and I had tons of time to grind out 'teh phat lewtz'. But I just started my own clinic/started (fill in the blank) so my time is rather limited but I still love DDO and the friends I made.

So I want to run EE with my guildies/channel friends/ random pug the hardest content because I am sadistic like that, but I don't have the time to grind 'teh ubah phat lewtz' out anymore. Now I do have a wack ton of cash kicking around and before the ASAH came out I could of just bought TP/ money from a plat farmer and almost got the same results. The only thing that the ASAH lets me do is buy BTCoE items that have already been equipped. So now I get to play the content I want with the people I want instead of having to grind out XYZ quest for 'teh new shineyz'.

Personally the only thing I am seeing in your argument is ' I like to pug and I BELIEVE PERSONALLY that if you can just buy your 'teh phat lewtz' people will not pug as much anymore which directly affects my enjoyment of DDO. It's way to early to tell if that is the case.

Personally after getting skunked over 40-60 times on ADQ2 I am willing to buy a Torc if the RMAH or the store starts to sell them. Same deal with a SoS.

ive never understood why people don't have time to play what is supposed to be a never ending game. I don't know why people cant just play the game without some time barrier created by themselves that they must get to cap, they must get certain loot and they must hurry to do everything. time is only relative.

as far as drop rates and getting skunked time and again, I know the feeling but I still don't put all my eggs in 1 basket. drop rates are controlled by Turbine. grind used to mean something as far as balance and longevity, but it seems making money is paying for shortcuts to reduce the grind because of countless skunks, circumvent this issue of player time and skip over content that players don't want, feel like or own doing.

shortcutting the game may seem like a great idea in the beginning and for some it is as it means they can get through some unpleasant PLs quicker or skip over levels or quests they don't care for or cut out the grind and just buy the gear they want from the ASAH. after awhile, and I have seen this in game time and again and ive seen threads weeks after bypass items were sold in the store, people want more things to do because they got what they want quicker than it probably would have taken them. they get bored and complain and some leave or take breaks. in the meantime, while many people pay to skip over parts of the game, players like me who don't want to pay to do that have a harder time getting groups together and the ones who did pay aren't around or maybe in our level range anymore.

the ASAH is pretty close to what some have hoped for and hoped not for. its 1 step away from selling raid loot and any other type of bound loot. its the same thing as an AH, but AS will be the future currency. we will be paying for everything in AS and Turbine will get 30-40% of the cut. AS are a rare drop in game. most AS will come from DD and the store. some people will be paying RL money for their new loot, while some will find ways to gather enough shards in game to not have to. by buying the shards from the store and than using the shards to buy from ASAH, you are paying to win. DDO is P2W but with options now.

[1Soulless1]

If you can't afford the time spent playing DDO, then the best option is to not play DDO.

Just a thought.

Because that is exactly what DDO needs right less people playing (and paying)?


So instead of causal people playing 4-10 hours per week and paying to keep up with the Jones (and making turbine money) no one gets to play when turbine can't meet WB profit forecasts and shuts DDO down. So we ALL loose everything we have put into this game because 'teh ubah grinderz' earned it the hard way and so everyone else should?

The only reason WB bought turbine was because of the LOTR license. We should be lucky DDO has not been shut down yet.

But by all means please do go on.....

[eonfreon]

shortcutting the game may seem like a great idea in the beginning and for some it is as it means they can get through some unpleasant PLs quicker or skip over levels or quests they don't care for or cut out the grind and just buy the gear they want from the ASAH. after awhile, and I have seen this in game time and again and ive seen threads weeks after bypass items were sold in the store, people want more things to do because they got what they want quicker than it probably would have taken them. they get bored and complain and some leave or take breaks. in the meantime, while many people pay to skip over parts of the game, players like me who don't want to pay to do that have a harder time getting groups together and the ones who did pay aren't around or maybe in our level range anymore.



You do realize that someone still has to get the loot to sell it, right? So someone still has to run the quest. The only difference between the AH and the ASAH is that if someone has a piece of BtCoE item that they equipped and bound, they can now sell it.

[Qhualor]

You do realize that someone still has to get the loot to sell it, right? So someone still has to run the quest. The only difference between the AH and the ASAH is that if someone has a piece of BtCoE item that they equipped and bound, they can now sell it.

yep, someone does, but someone else doesn't have to. someone does the work and puts loot up in the ASAH. its an easy way to make AS. people are already doing this now. still, ASAH provides a way to not quest if you don't want to.

I looked at the ASAH at about 5pm eastern and their was 13 pages. an hour later there was 23 pages. it listed everything the AH holds plus the BTCoE items. how long before ASAH becomes our new AH?

[eonfreon]

yep, someone does, but someone else doesn't have to. someone does the work and puts loot up in the ASAH. its an easy way to make AS. people are already doing this now. still, ASAH provides a way to not quest if you don't want to.

I looked at the ASAH at about 5pm eastern and their was 13 pages. an hour later there was 23 pages. it listed everything the AH holds plus the BTCoE items. how long before ASAH becomes our new AH?

Yes, so someone still has to do quests to acquire the items. Therefore there will still be people questing because they want to put things up for sale. So there will still be PuGs. The sky is not falling, yet. I see plenty of LFMs and when I post them, they fill. I don't always wait for 6 players, however, because it has never been necessary to do so, not since the very first days I played DDO with just two other RL friends. We 3-manned every quest, even when DDO was supposedly "hard".

[Missing_Minds]

I did not know that.

That makes me very sad.
And now you know, and knowing is half your wallet. ;)

To be fair, unless it is something like an indie game, the current gaming industry direction is...

1. store buy things
2. mobility (aka moble phones, pads, etc.)

[Orratti]

You do realize that someone still has to get the loot to sell it, right? So someone still has to run the quest. The only difference between the AH and the ASAH is that if someone has a piece of BtCoE item that they equipped and bound, they can now sell it.

Yeah the only real difference between this and selling the items directly from the store is that someone had to earn it. They earned it and Turbine gets paid for it.

This is a sweet little loophole for them when it comes to the forum crowd.

I'd have been happier if they would have just sold it directly.

I'd have been happier if they had sold an item that let you unbind things between characters.

I'd have been happier if they had just made all loot unbound or bta.

I'd have been happier if loot went from btc to btcoe when you tred.

[eonfreon]

Yeah the only real difference between this and selling the items directly from the store is that someone had to earn it. They earned it and Turbine gets paid for it.

This is a sweet little loophole for them when it comes to the forum crowd.

I'd have been happier if they would have just sold it directly.

All the ASAH does at the moment is allow someone to sell a piece of equipment that was bound due to being equipped that someone no longer wants/needs.

If the person had not bound it on equip he still could have sold it at the AH.

It is a pretty distinct difference that someone still has to acquire the item to sell rather than buy it from the store.

And it can still be acquired through gameplay. Buying it is not required.

[Orratti]

All the ASAH does at the moment is allow someone to sell a piece of equipment that was bound due to being equipped that someone no longer wants/needs.

If the person had not bound it on equip he still could have sold it at the AH.

It is a pretty distinct difference that someone still has to acquire the item to sell rather than buy it from the store.

And it can still be acquired through gameplay. Buying it is not required.

Well it would have been fine if the store was stocked with those items to buy as well. Since you can still acquire it through gameplay.

[Qhualor]

Yes, so someone still has to do quests to acquire the items. Therefore there will still be people questing because they want to put things up for sale. So there will still be PuGs. The sky is not falling, yet. I see plenty of LFMs and when I post them, they fill. I don't always wait for 6 players, however, because it has never been necessary to do so, not since the very first days I played DDO with just two other RL friends. We 3-manned every quest, even when DDO was supposedly "hard".

never claimed the sky is falling. i know people will still quest. im not claiming the ASAH is the sole reason for less grouping. there are many reasons for this.

i did quest today as a matter of fact and managed to solo just fine. i did take a gander at the lfm and saw players looking to fill groups, so i suspect at least some of them were able to fill their groups. im glad you are able to shortman and sometimes fill your groups, but that's the way the game is now. no waiting, just go and it helps to be an experienced player because you already know what to bring and how well your character should be able to handle the quests you are about to tackle. having a couple people in your group you know helps to pass the time, im sure, as you can engage in friendly conversation if you wanted to. unfortunately for me, when i look at the lfm, its always the same quests with funny little restriction notes. its zerg this, zerg that, ip, know it cuz we be zerging. so off i go to play the game i want to by myself. its ok. im fine with an exclusionary, anti social game that doesn't have time to play a game, but yet they are logged onto a game. i shouldn't complain about how others play because it doesn't affect me.

[Arnez]

Because that is exactly what DDO needs right less people playing (and paying)?


So instead of causal people playing 4-10 hours per week and paying to keep up with the Jones (and making turbine money) no one gets to play when turbine can't meet WB profit forecasts and shuts DDO down. So we ALL loose everything we have put into this game because 'teh ubah grinderz' earned it the hard way and so everyone else should?

The only reason WB bought turbine was because of the LOTR license. We should be lucky DDO has not been shut down yet.

But by all means please do go on.....

THIS.

+1 to you.

[eonfreon]

Well it would have been fine if the store was stocked with those items to buy as well. Since you can still acquire it through gameplay.

But that would feed the fear that Turbine keeps drop rates low to sell store items. It would be hard to sell such a game, I would imagine. But who knows.

[Orratti]

Because that is exactly what DDO needs right less people playing (and paying)?


So instead of causal people playing 4-10 hours per week and paying to keep up with the Jones (and making turbine money) no one gets to play when turbine can't meet WB profit forecasts and shuts DDO down. So we ALL loose everything we have put into this game because 'teh ubah grinderz' earned it the hard way and so everyone else should?

The only reason WB bought turbine was because of the LOTR license. We should be lucky DDO has not been shut down yet.

But by all means please do go on.....

No, They should sell you the items directly from the store. Teh uber grinderz will be the ones you will be paying Turbine to pay and they will be working for Turbine for imaginary crystals.


But that would feed the fear that Turbine keeps drop rates low to sell store items. It would be hard to sell such a game, I would imagine. But who knows.

That fear would not kill this game anymore than the topic we are discussing will.

[eonfreon]

never claimed the sky is falling. i know people will still quest. im not claiming the ASAH is the sole reason for less grouping. there are many reasons for this.

i did quest today as a matter of fact and managed to solo just fine. i did take a gander at the lfm and saw players looking to fill groups, so i suspect at least some of them were able to fill their groups. im glad you are able to shortman and sometimes fill your groups, but that's the way the game is now. no waiting, just go and it helps to be an experienced player because you already know what to bring and how well your character should be able to handle the quests you are about to tackle. having a couple people in your group you know helps to pass the time, im sure, as you can engage in friendly conversation if you wanted to. unfortunately for me, when i look at the lfm, its always the same quests with funny little restriction notes. its zerg this, zerg that, ip, know it cuz we be zerging. so off i go to play the game i want to by myself. its ok. im fine with an exclusionary, anti social game that doesn't have time to play a game, but yet they are logged onto a game. i shouldn't complain about how others play because it doesn't affect me.

You have every right to complain. But what you're complaining about is that the game doesn't cater to how you desire the game to be played. Join the club. That's what we all complain about. But the game you envision still exists, if you make the effort to look for it. People still group. The people who are "anti-social" are anti-social, trying to make them be social doesn't work. They simply won't play if that is the only option. Thus there wouldn't be more people willing to be social, there would just be less players and less money for Turbine.

Just cultivate friends in the game. Perhaps join a guild with like-minded individuals. That aspect of the game still exists. When I log in I get tells from people I played with who ask what I'm doing. When my guildmates are on we go and do quests together. Trying to enforce social interactions is not necessary. Just make friends. There are plenty of people who want to socialize and play together. I looked at the LFM and I see some selective and zerg entries. But I also see plenty of group requests that have no requirements. And some who say they are doing elite, so have a clue because it's harder than the other difficulties.

Sometimes I solo, sometimes I group. More than another couple of players is not needed to make things easier. It has never been needed or I would not have started playing this game with two friends in a static group and been able to make progress back in the end of 2006.

As fas as the ASAH, people still have to quest to acquire the items to sell in the first place. Sure there is a segment of players who will buy the items instead of playing quests, but probably less than you think. Some of them may just be absolutely sick of running a certain quest or raid and not getting the item. Anyway, the only difference between this and the AH is that if someone doesn't need a bound item anymore they can sell it instead of it going to waste.

[Postumus]

If you can't afford the time spent playing DDO, then the best option is to not play DDO.

Just a thought.

No, he asked "why is that a problem for you?" We already know you have a problem with people spending money in lieu of time, the question was why?

[eonfreon]

No, They should sell you the items directly from the store. Teh uber grinderz will be the ones you will be paying Turbine to pay and they will be working for Turbine for imaginary crystals.



That fear would not kill this game anymore than the topic we are discussing will.

So you say. I guess we will see.

[Orratti]

So you say. I guess we will see.

Well look at it this way then.

Things sold in the store have a set price. Once Turbine starts selling things on an auction that goes away. The players are posting the auctions but Turbine gets all the money.