Immunities are the root of all evil.

[Chilldude]

Immune is so much more than highly resistant. So very much more. Immune means it simply doesn't even exist.

I'm not allowed to discuss in the EE suggestion thread because the OP said that it's only for them and other elitists who solely run EE with their exploiter toons. Even though the overall point of the OP was that you shouldn't have to use a certain build that exploits loopholes to be successful in EE, they feel EE belongs to the elitists and the rest of us are not allowed to comment.

I would say the problem with EE... the problem with the entire game... the reason so many people have left... the reason I can't wait for ESO... the reason why I'd even thought about going back to WoW for a fleeting second... immunities.

FoM makes you immune to holds... so everyone simply gets FoM all the time and hence never needs to worry about holds again.
Deathward makes you immune to level drain... so everyone gets DW and hence never needs to worry about level drain again.
Protection from Evil makes you immune to command...

So the entire game becomes a buff check. Have you're buff on? OK then, nothing to see here, move along. "Hey look, over here! This barbarian doesn't have FoM! Let's get him boys!"

The funny thing is, I know for a fact the devs understand this. They even came right out and said very plainly and as matter of factly that immunities make it difficult to design challenging content. However, I haven't the slightest clue what they were thinking, when they begin to address it by removing a couple of immunities they start with...

POISON

&

DISEASE

Are you kidding me? So now people have to carry around potions and drink them, or not, because poison and disease are so benign you don't really have to.


They already know what needs to be done. We all know what needs to be done. REMOVE all immunities in the game and replace them with resistances.

Someone with decent saves should have about a 50% chance of resisting something.
Someone with good saves should have about a 75% chance.
Someone with stellar saves should have about a 90% chance.

DO NOT TELL ME THAT IS NOT THE WAY OF D&D!!!!!

THAT IS EXACTLY THE WAY OF D&D.

D&D is a pen and paper game invented in a time where calculators were big expensive machines. D&D was built around the D20 system because it was something easy and available.

You succeed on 20, you fail on a 1.

You have a 1/20 or 5% of chance of failing or succeeding.... no matter what.

They took away physical damage immunities. AC, although completely useless to most, did give some complete immunity to physical damage. The game is much better off with the new resistance based AC in my opinion.

I've said this since a few weeks after coming to DDO. The D20 system is the Achilles heel of DDO. I didn't understand at the time just how very right I was. Fast forward a few years and now the only way they have to make things challenging is to make mobs hit so hard that they can kill even a well geared players in 2-3 swings over the course of 1-2 seconds. (I was testing how hard mobs hit in EE GH on my sorc who has ~550 HP, I got double hit by a mob for 228 & 220 then before I could get off a heal he hit me again for 187. I suffered 635 damage nearly instantly.)

If mobs had the ability to CC players then the element of danger would be restored. Even an uber geared multi-class hybrid with a handful of pastlives would have to be careful as no one is immune to danger. Nor would the mobs be immune!!! That's an important point as well. We, the players, would have our sources of CC back as well. Just like a dual wielding sorcerer with no STR to speak of can peck away at mobs with melee now, so too would everyone with CC abilities be able to use them with at least some measure of success. The current system of spell penetration and difficulty check make many EE mobs effectively immune to most players.

Alright, I've said my piece, commence the volley of rotten tomatoes and halflings.

[moo_cow]

As far as I am aware fom doesn't stop you from being stunned, symbol of stunninng, danced, earth grabbed. Also nothing stop you from being hit by severe stunning blow, cometfall (unless airsavant or acrobat). Even when you do get fom, death ward nothing stop the mobs your fighting from casting dispel magic, which gets rid of it so that you can than be commanded or held on the spot. Dragon knockdowns, giant stomps, dragon breath's that freeze you, those are forms of cc. Greater shout stuns you, only way to negate these affects are by saving. Just because there are ways of preventing a few forms of cc doesn't stop people from being cc'ed and it doesn't stop clerics/wizards from casting dispel magic on you.

Poison, blindness, disease? You can have blindness immunity but poison and disease are only bonus to saves now. You can drink a pot but they can put it right back on you, either way if you running with a healer and they cast mass heal on you those affects disappear anyway. Did you want heal to be removed from the game, or it's effects to be removed? If you do get poisoned and you can't get rid of it sometimes it can kill you, some mobs that hit you produce a venomous poison that can do 1000 con damage, if not it still does take away con. If people only have decent saves than they would repeatedly get owned than that would be taking everything you can get cc'ed by and adding another 50% of things you can get cc'ed by.

P.S you are the only person I've actually seen complain/want to leave because immunities.

[Violith]

cow is correct, the 'immunities' that we have left dont make as immune to stuff as they used to.

fom used to protect against everything, now as of u12, it doesnt protect against stuns, earth grab, cometfall, and dancing (not 100% sure but im fairly positive I've been danced while having fom) which happens occassionally. deathward prevents level drain and instant killing, which imo is good, since level draining without any way to save is kinda messed up, there are mobs (not just beholders, but regular mages) who will level drain you to oblivion and unlike the mobs we fight we dont got no 50+ levels to let be drained.

also dispel magic is another great example of how buffs arent always the 'go to' to be immune. Its not the 'immunities' that we have that make it hard to design, its also the hardware/software and such the devs are using. the AI of mobs hasnt really improved at all since launch (afaik). if it would improve to where their tactics would balance against the players gear and buffs then it would be good, but removing key components from the players arsenal isnt the way to go.

now taking away poison/disease immunity did change quite abit at higher levels, Spinner of shadow has a nasty poison that stacks and could easily kill just about anyone if it isnt treated. As does the Green dragon in eveningstar, not to mention the medusa (one of the first mobs who you want to make sure you succeed against their poison, that could easily drain your constitution and kill ya in a single hit) as for diseases, they depend on your saves so if you got high ones and decent stats so you wont be made helpless incase you fail (always that 5%) then they arent all that bad.

[Jay203]

immunties aren't the real problem
the uber stat inflation is

[Mastikator]

The thing is that a lot of what you need to be immune to either neutralize you or outright kill you instantly, none of them make you 10% or 50%, they always go 100% less efficient or nothing, 100% is pretty harsh.

[Matuse]

DO NOT TELL ME THAT IS NOT THE WAY OF D&D!!!!!

Why wouldn't we? Immunities are hardcoded into "the way" of D&D.


Freedom Of Movement:
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web.


Protection From Evil:
Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect.


Death Ward:
The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.


Mind Blank:
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.


Forbiddance:
Forbiddance seals an area against all planar travel into or within it. This includes all teleportation spells (such as dimension door and teleport), plane shifting, astral travel, ethereal travel, and all summoning spells. Such effects simply fail automatically.


Aura Of Courage:
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).


Divine Health:
At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.


Purity of Body:
At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases.


Diamond Body:
At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.


Dragon Apotheosis:
At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon.


Elf:
Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.

I can keep going (a long time) if you like.

[Orratti]

You shouldn't hate people for being able to do things that atm you can't pull off. Every game has some players that are far more capable than the other players. DDO also has had it's share of players that are able to do what would seem to be impossible. It started off having those players and it still has those players. They aren't common in the least even among "elitists". You wouldn't be able to cripple their abilities even with whatever suggestions you put forth to do so.

Aside from that I'm getting sick of the words "elitist" and "casual" getting thrown around. Both of these terms are slurs and neither of them actually applies to any large group of people I've found in the game.

I've grouped with uber geared people and the only difference between them and any other player I've grouped with is their gear. They accquired that gear simply by running with friends doing quests where gear is found. Nothing special, nothing godlike, and nothing to really brag about or rub people's noses in.

I've run with casuals and the only difference between them and any other player I've grouped with is their gear. They either aren't interested in chasing the gear or haven't found a guild or group of friends they can run with often in order to get the gear. They aren't handicapped, they aren't bad players, and they've got no cause or right to be envious and spiteful.

[Ape_Man]

Saying immunites is in issue is a lie . . . the issue is their AI is ********.

Old school DM here . . . the first spell cast in my Second Edition campaigns by BOTH sides in every conflict was Dispell Magic.

But we have effective immunity to charm, greater command, energy drain, insta-kills . . . that's pretty much it. As somebody pointed out there's a lot of other junk thrown at us that still hits us . . . with DCs that are literally insane.

If anything what Turbine would do if they took you suggestion seriously is remove all our immunities and keep the mob damage the same.

[diamabel]

Resistances/buffs granted through spells would be no problem if monsters would use dispel more often. But then you'd still have some undispellable buffs/buffs granted through equipment which would remain unaffected. In general it's the DM's fault if he unbalances his own campaign. Since this is an MMO maybe dispel/debuff spells could get a buff so that the latter category of buffs got suppressed for a certain duration of time.

The MMO notion to inflate numbers isn't something that's going to end well. It doesn't make the game more challenging, but forces players to focus more on certain type of gear. It were better to improve monsters' AI to act in a smarter and thus more challenging way.

[Phidius]

...

You succeed on 20, you fail on a 1.

You have a 1/20 or 5% of chance of failing or succeeding.... no matter what.

They took away physical damage immunities. AC, although completely useless to most, did give some complete immunity to physical damage. The game is much better off with the new resistance based AC in my opinion.
...

Wait, what?

AC gave "complete immunity to physical damage" when the mobs hit the player on a natural roll of 20? Not even considering the abomination that is grazing hits?

Sorry, I think I missed a check somewhere - must have rolled a 1.

[Ape_Man]

Resistances/buffs granted through spells would be no problem if monsters would use dispel more often. But then you'd still have some undispellable buffs/buffs granted through equipment which would remain unaffected. In general it's the DM's fault if he unbalances his own campaign. Since this is an MMO maybe dispel spells could get a buff so that the latter category of buffs got suppressed for a certain duration of time.

The MMO notion to inflate numbers isn't something that's going to end well. It doesn't make the game more challenging, but forces players to focus more on certain type of gear. It were better to improve monsters' AI to act in a smarter and thus more challenging way.

The issue is with the insanely inflate mob CRs (CR54 trash is ********) all our stuff would be dispelled every time and we'd have a 5% chance to dispell their buffs.

[Phidius]

...
If anything what Turbine would do if they took you suggestion seriously is remove all our immunities and keep the mob damage and immunities the same.

Added the part that really bothers me...

[Matuse]

The non-beholders who dispel already do it with grim regularity. Using dispel magic to strip buffs is well and fine in PnP, where monsters have limitations on their spellcasting and are not habitually 20 levels higher than the players they are casting against.

Here? It would mean there'd be no point in using any buffs at all. Remove them from the spell lists entirely. Just a waste of SP for something that will vanish 2 seconds after the first fight starts.

[Ape_Man]

Thank Crom - otherwise, I'd have a read-only account.

LOL . . . not referring to you.

[HungarianRhapsody]

The issue is with the insanely inflate mob CRs (CR54 trash is ********) all our stuff would be dispelled every time and we'd have a 5% chance to dispell their buffs.

This. Very much this.

I'd like to see Dispel Magic and all of its variations play a greater part in DDO's tactics. Unfortunately, the ridiculous inflation of caster levels (based on CR of the monsters) means that Dispel Magic wouldn't actually be a meaningful tactic for players in most quests - even on Normal, for many of those quests.

[mowomp]

more disjunction and dispels from mobs.. man that sucks in pnp.. what do I do on my turn, rebuff or heal or damage..

[Aashrym]

Why wouldn't we? Immunities are hardcoded into "the way" of D&D.

(stuff)

I can keep going (a long time) if you like.

Yup. We have them in the first place because that is the way of D&D. D&D has more than we have and the dev's still took some away.

[SiliconScout]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wEkTwg5LMxQ/TXjhE7v5ocI/AAAAAAAACEM/FoQAiTp0jjI/s1600/funny-cat-that-farted.jpg

^^^ Is more relevant to the game than this post.

The symptom of the problem is immunities. The problem is power creep, as they have allowed and even encouraged power creep from the players perspective they are forced to inflate the MOB and BOSS spawns to silly silly levels.

Trying now to remove immunities to make it more challenging is roughly analogous to alt tabbing out out of the game automatically every time you cast / attack.

Both ideas are just silly now in the currently hyper-inflated status of the game.

[droid327]

I might almost agree with the OP - that its not really fun to have the "challenge" of a mission just be based on a rock-paper-scissors system of what immunities you have vs what effects they can stick - except for two things:

1) Most of the immunities that are binary, have-or-die kinds of things are pretty ubiquitously available. They dont require being/having a certain class in your party. They dont require specific named gear choices. They dont require running with half your inventory full of scrolls/wands. Heck, with the new augments, a lot of them are now available to slot, basically anywhere you want to. That doesnt make them elitist, that just means you cant run quests naked and expect to win...you have to spend a little time and effort and capital properly equipping yourself for your level.

2) Many of the immunities arent have-or-die things. Its possible, with enough player skill, just very annoying or slower or more difficult, to do without them. That makes them not required, just extremely convenient, and I think everyone is fine with immunities that improve your experience but arent absolutely prerequisite just to play the game.

[FranOhmsford]

Resistances/buffs granted through spells would be no problem if monsters would use dispel more often.

When was the last time you ran the Scorrow side of Sands?

Scorrow Raiders spam dispel!
NOTE: Scorrow Raiders are NOT casters {the Scorrow Caster types use other spells}.

I've gone into Sands on Characters of Max Lvl {15} and had EVERY Buff dispelled regularly!

Pure Casters {Cleric or Wiz} - Not much of an issue - Just don't bother buffing!
Battle Cleric/ Battle Mage, Paladin, Ranger, Bard {apart from Songs} = BIG ISSUE!

Any mob in game {not just Scorrow in Sands} that has Dispel as a spell/ability SPAMS it {and with their ultra high CRs compared to our Levels we have no hope of keeping our buffs!

Dispel Magic is one of the spells in DDO that did not transfer properly from PnP and NEEDS looking at drastically by the Devs!

[voodoogroves]

Immunities and the corresponding rule-exception system is the heart of D&D.

Sliding scale % damage mitigation is some other game. We've had enough creep into DDO, but I'd prefer to stay more D&D targeted.

What we need (beyond more work on the AI)
- More monsters who bypass targeted immunities or can ignore such
- More monsters with varied immunities themselves
- More monsters or environments where some immunities are tied to limitations (like ToD boots), forcing players to make a choice

[Paleus]

We all know what needs to be done.

Someone with decent saves should have about a 50% chance of resisting something.
Someone with good saves should have about a 75% chance.
Someone with stellar saves should have about a 90% chance.

DO NOT TELL ME THAT IS NOT THE WAY OF D&D!!!!!

THAT IS EXACTLY THE WAY OF D&D.

D&D is a pen and paper game invented in a time where calculators were big expensive machines. D&D was built around the D20 system because it was something easy and available.

You succeed on 20, you fail on a 1.

You have a 1/20 or 5% of chance of failing or succeeding.... no matter what.


Excerpting a couple of things to address then moving on.

1) When someone says we all know X, its usually because they are trying to make it appear like people agree with them or something is common sense. Arguments should be able to stand on their own merits without telling someone how awesome your point of view is. But thats a side note really.

2) You note that D&D was invented when calculators were big and expensive, yet fail to notice that we're playing a game on ridiculously powerful computers that are able to simulate more mobs per encounter, more hits/spells per encounter, more everything than D&D PnP ever could keep track of.

This is a really important thing to notice because a 5% (or 10%) fail chance as a basic rule works when you have very small encounters like in PnP. It really does not work when you have a situation like DDO where you have a very large volume of hits/spells/etc per encounter. Just look at vorpal in epics pre-nerf. You had super-high HP mobs and a 5% chance of killing them outright per swing. Dual-wielding vorpals sliced through the content faster than other options, not much variety, pretty straightforward.

So no, I'm not telling you this is not the way of DnD. But you're not playing DnD, you're playing DDO. Its had to make specific design changes to account for the fact that its not like playing PnP.

[RobbinB]

I do agree with your basic premise that immunities should be removed. Whether that's all immunities or most immunities is the better discussion.

As pointed out by another responder, your suggestion needs to take into account that the very nature of DDO's combat (eg. in a single encounter enemy casters might cast FOD ten times or more) makes it insane to keep the 5% autofail and not have immunites.

Possible solutions include going to a d100 for saves, leaving only the roll of 1 as an auto-fail (1% chance). It also lessens the problems of narrow roll windows where the dc is set against the "optimal opponent", meaning newer poorly geared players have no chance of landing certain spells or making certain saves.
The big con is that merely the thought of not using the sacred d20 sends some people into a tizzy.

My suggestion has always been to change "immunity" to equate to a 2nd saving throw if you fail the first. This would apply to both items and spells. So now the paladin with 60+ saves only fails on a 1/20 x 1/20 = 1/400 and the 15 fort save wizard is still in serious trouble if an enemy caster casts fod.

Or better yet, go to a d100 for saves AND change immunity to equal a second chance roll.

[Viisari]

I'm not allowed to discuss in the EE suggestion thread because the OP said that it's only for them and other elitists who solely run EE with their exploiter toons.

You know the reason for that line was so we wouldn't get silly posts like this in there.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to with 'exploiter toons' though.

And anyway, there's plenty of stuff you can't become immune against short of having no fails on a 1 from epic destinies and extremely high saves. Which a great many people don't have. There's also greater dispell which can really screw you up even if you did get all the nice buffs.

[Drelak]

Immunities were the way of PnP D&D 3.0 and 3.5.
It was possible to make a character with immunities to every condition and elemental damage type given by spells.
Also it was possible to boost the caster level so high that the spells were completely immune to Greater Dispell.
Those few dangerous spells that remained could be turned or absorbed by items.

I feel that would not be very fun in computer game, even though I miss that feeling of security.

On the other hand elemental damage in this game seems to get so high, that protection should have more tiers after 30.

[Kilbar]

You know the reason for that line was so we wouldn't get silly posts like this in there.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to with 'exploiter toons' though.

And anyway, there's plenty of stuff you can't become immune against short of having no fails on a 1 from epic destinies and extremely high saves. Which a great many people don't have. There's also greater dispell which can really screw you up even if you did get all the nice buffs.

Oh don't be coy! You know he was accusing you and the rest of having Shearsed your way to victory! He's just too gastrointestinally-impaired to come right out and say it.

[SirValentine]

I would say the problem with EE... the problem with the entire game... the reason so many people have left... the reason I can't wait for ESO... the reason why I'd even thought about going back to WoW for a fleeting second... immunities.


Really? That's the problem, huh? I don't see it.



So the entire game becomes a buff check.


So you want to leave it the same, but turn it from an immunities-buff check into a saves-build-and-buff check?

And so almost everyone people will either always fail (anyone who didn't go max-******-saves) or save 95% of the time (or 100% with the right ED ability) (for anyone who did)?

The RANGE of saving throws players would have was much smaller in pen-and-paper. The high-saves guy and the low-saves guy really were within a d20 of each other. Here, those can be 40 or 50 points apart. The high-saves guy rolling a 2 is fine, and the low-saves guy rolling a 19 is screwed.

[Nagantor]

So, we have two major problems of the D20 system:

- MMO power creep making ranges go far too large.
- MMO play style giving you numbers of rolls that would turn dice into spheres and make your hands bleed. 5% is a lot now.

But still people complain about the new AC/PRR where you have diminishing returns starting early with no immunity to achieve?

[Raithe]

FoM makes you immune to holds... so everyone simply gets FoM all the time and hence never needs to worry about holds again.


No, everyone doesn't. Item FoM immunity comes on only certain items and may not fit into a particular character's equipment set. It's a rare enough need (with a good enough will save Hold is seldom the issue - more likely webs or slipperiness - as you get a save every 3 seconds) that only people with a weakness will feel the need to make such an equipment tradeoff.

As for the spell, it can be dispelled, it can wear off in the middle of combat, and only appears on the spell lists of divines.

The same is true of Deathward.

Being incapacitated on a 5% chance is what is stupid (death being a slightly longer lasting incapacitation), so having the tools to avoid such a gameplay-inhibiting attack is completely understandable.



Are you kidding me? So now people have to carry around potions and drink them, or not, because poison and disease are so benign you don't really have to.


No, people (apparently including yourself) just don't understand all the reasons why they died. Poison and disease are quite strong now, and the Poison spell as cast by mobs seems to actually be working as stated for the first time since I can remember.

The only immunity in the game that players have against the environment that I think is detrimental to the health of the game is immunity to falling.

[pHo3nix]

Any mob in game {not just Scorrow in Sands} that has Dispel as a spell/ability SPAMS it {and with their ultra high CRs compared to our Levels we have no hope of keeping our buffs!

Dispel Magic is one of the spells in DDO that did not transfer properly from PnP and NEEDS looking at drastically by the Devs!

We have a winner!

Dispel magic in DDO is no fail when casted by mobs with silly CR; you'd better avoid casting any buff on you in quests where there are lots of mobs that dispel (Offering of blood for example).

FoM was nerfed to be situationally useful: it doesn't protect anymore from a lot of things that it should protect us from like it does in DnD.

Poison and disease immunities were thrown out of the window cause they decided to use drows in the expansion and they couldn't find a better way to make drows challenging. A good DM would have found a better solution or just used other mobs, but considering they usually take the cheapest way they just nerfed poison and disease immunities.

Immunities are part of DnD, there's nothing wrong with them; mobs usually got some of them as well, and if the DM is decent he can always find a way to kill/incapacitate adventurers without removing them from the game.

So no, immunities aren't the root of evil, turbine trying to change things that have been working fine for years is the root of the problems :)

[Ape_Man]

But still people complain about the new AC/PRR where you have diminishing returns starting early with no immunity to achieve?

People complain because the new AC system sucks, but that's a different conversation.

[Chai]

Metagaming is more preventable in a PnP atmosphere than an MMO atmosphere that encourages high quantities of repeating the same quests in order to achieve goals. Its not really preventable in an MMO context.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Metagaming is more preventable in a PnP atmosphere than an MMO atmosphere that encourages high quantities of repeating the same quests in order to achieve goals. Its not really preventable in an MMO context.

/agreed

Metagaming is 90% of what makes a good DDO player good. Knowing where the traps are, knowing where the enemies spawn (and what specific enemies will spawn), knowing which buffs to cast when you step into a quest (and which to skip), etc. all have a tremendous impact on how fast you can run a quest and on how many resources you have to spend to succeed in the quest.

Metagaming is why it's even possible to beat most raids "at level".

[Raithe]

/agreed
Metagaming is 90% of what makes a good DDO player good.


You have a strange definition of good player. I call that cheesy and exploitive, not good tactics. A good player in my book is one that can walk into a quest the FIRST time and beat it without spoilers.



Metagaming is why it's even possible to beat most raids "at level".

Only in DDO could someone actually think this was true. I assure you it is not. In MANY other games having to run a level (quest) again is failure in just about anyone's book.

I do admit that DDO's raids have had more than their fair share of extremely cheesy and lame quest mechanics.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You have a strange definition of good player. I call that cheesy and exploitive, not good tactics. A good player in my book is one that can walk into a quest the FIRST time and beat it without spoilers.

A great player can do that. A good player can beat a quest reliably on an appropriate difficulty setting after a few tries. Your definition and my definition of "appropriate difficulty setting" may differ, of course. :) Also, there is a big difference in the challenge of most quests on Elite the first time through vs. a raid on Elite the first time through.

How long did it take most players to even *attempt* LoB on Elite after it was introduced? Most players still can't handle LoB on Elite even at level 25.

Most players in DDO aren't good players. Great swaths of DDO's population won't even reach 20, much less hitting 25 with multiple destinies and equipping their characters wtih "end game" gear. Most players struggle with Elite at level even in a full party. Most players will never have to worry about immunities in DDO because they don't have a character that could take advantage of a lack of enemy immunities.



Only in DDO could someone actually think this was true. I assure you it is not. In MANY other games having to run a level (quest) again is failure in just about anyone's book.

I do admit that DDO's raids have had more than their fair share of extremely cheesy and lame quest mechanics.

So most raids in other games are beaten on the first try by most players when the raid is introduced?

[MaximusParthas]

I can see the eberron chronicle now.
"Innocent elder fire elemental dies while walking through errant firewall!"
In other news along this same rash of weird events; A huge earth elemental was turned to stone, 3 Oozes were blinded and a pit fiend from fiery depths of hell received 3rd degree burns in a cooking accident.
Residents blame it on the Chilldude curse.

Tune in next week for updates on the phase spider ( and a mother of 700) who has been caught in a web for 5 grueling days.

[Viisari]

You have a strange definition of good player. I call that cheesy and exploitive, not good tactics. A good player in my book is one that can walk into a quest the FIRST time and beat it without spoilers.

You know I honestly can't remember the last time I walked into a quest for the first time and failed it.

DDO isn't very difficult like that, most quests are rather difficult to fail even on the hardest difficulty. There are some exceptions to this rule and they're generally situations you can't foresee or prepare for without metagaming.

[Chai]

You have a strange definition of good player. I call that cheesy and exploitive, not good tactics. A good player in my book is one that can walk into a quest the FIRST time and beat it without spoilers.



Only in DDO could someone actually think this was true. I assure you it is not. In MANY other games having to run a level (quest) again is failure in just about anyone's book.

I do admit that DDO's raids have had more than their fair share of extremely cheesy and lame quest mechanics.

So what other MMO does the raid get soloed on the first day? Heck, ill make it easier on you, what other MMO do raids even get beaten in the first week?

Ill name one. DDO. Name me a few more.

Good players? More like endless consumibles.

[Tolath]

i dont know who told you not to post in that epic elite post.

that problem with the immunities was in the game alot years before.we had tha time complete immunity to fire,ice,acid etc but you could memorize only 1 spell.things arent that way atm.its not a matter of immunities anymore.

i really dislike the fact that every single buff from an arcane or divine can be found in an item.when the item is too hard its fine but when its common isnt so good.but anyway game become alot more solo that used to be i still remember the video turbine made "friends dont let friends play solo" now its completely the opposite.

epic elite its fine the only thing i dont like is scaling and the fact that some classes and solo-duo it.

also note that ddo was pretty hard at the start.gear was very low.good gear very rare.and raids was very hard.
all was fine until gianthold came out give to all a farming raid.also was raining vorpals that days.
shroud continue like that and then epic destinies and motu came.
that was 3 updates that really made the game alot easier.why?because all got access to top gear.

AI is another issue with mobs.high int mobs should play smart and be unpredictable.in most dnd games a high lvl wizard is a nightmare no matter how good gear you have.

also Desert epics was the best design epics so far as epic dif was different than heroic.i think its good to move to that, epic elite need to be different from normal/hard just like desert.

and one special thing i liked to see is random very hard encounters in epic elite quests.like you design 20 purple name bosses with improve AI and put a chance that they can spawn anywhere inside an epic elite quest.
they can have a good chest as reward with them that can drop great stuff.

so sometimes you can have spawn it near the shrine.same time with another boss etc.make that bosses extremely hard.i think this will bring great fun to epic elite.