BYOH - black and white or shades of gray?

[Chilldude]

Since the servers are still down and we're all just sitting around bored, I want to clear up some confusion about BYOH. Quite a few people in another thread are suggesting that BYOH is a shades gray type deal. Where as long as you have some pots, you're good to go, you can expect others to help you out with heals along the way.

Now I know there are plenty of people in the community who feel very strongly that BYOH is a very clear and extremely black and white. When they post BYOH they mean it. In fact, a couple of people in that thread made it very clear that they definitely mean it when they post BYOH.

So my question is simple, when you post BYOH, is it a black and white issue or is it shades of gray like some have suggested?

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The only clear and definitive answers have been primarily for B&W. Only one or two people have had the intestinal fortitude to put their money where their mouth is and explicitly say gray. It looks like most people want everyone to be able to heal themselves, but they aren't willing to admit that's what BYOH means.

In my opinion, it's clear that there are people who definitely feel BYOH means you need to be 100% capable of healing yourself. Since it would be easy enough to do, I think it's only right that the people who follow a more diluted viewpoint of BYOH should use BYOHish instead.

[Ape_Man]

it depends on what hits the group. If it's a Palemaster and 5 fighters don't expect a heal to get tossed your way.

People should though toss a heal on somebody who's dying if possible, which I'll do on a bard, ranger, or pally. I'll rage/GH an incapped mook on my Wizard as that's about all she can do.

[Magil]

I don't post BYOH, but if I did, I'd mean it more along the lines of, be prepared. But I don't sweat over -10% anyway.

If we're going to run the Chamber of Raiyum, I expect people to carry plenty of potions of Remove Poison / Curse / Disease and at least Lesser Restoration.

[WruntJunior]

As with everything, BYOH is not black and white. There's the initial expectation that you MUST be capable of healing yourself, but that does not mean that it's not occasionally more efficient for someone else to heal you (or, in some situations, healing yourself is impossible - it's in no way against BYOH, for example, to heal someone that got incapped or CCed).

Edit: To clarify my post, in a BYOH group, it shouldn't be shocking if a divine in party doesn't heal you at all - it should affect you no differently than if they weren't there at all; however, they may decide to heal you if they decide it's a mana-efficient endeavor.

[Chilldude]

it depends on what hits the group. If it's a Palemaster and 5 fighters don't expect a heal to get tossed your way.

People should though toss a heal on somebody who's dying if possible, which I'll do on a bard, ranger, or pally. I'll rage/GH an incapped mook on my Wizard as that's about all she can do.

When YOU post a BYOH, is it a black and white issue or shades of gray?

Maybe we need a new LFM moniker, BYOHish

[Chilldude]

it's in no way against BYOH, for example, to heal someone that got incapped or CCed).

Nobody has suggested that. The question is simple, when YOU post BYOH, is it black and white or shades of gray?

[taurean430]

Meh, my PM even throws heal scrolls at others when they are in trouble.

I'm not one of the absolute, you must have your own heals all the time kinda players. No issue helping out where it's needed. Though I do tend to frown on folks that require a lifeline to function at all. They have no place in my groups.

[Theolin]

It means you may not yell "hJeal me" every 3.5 seconds

on a more serious note: in general I find it means be able to take care of yourself & be able to help others when needed(i.e. incap, tripped, ...etc) ... not that you will or they will

[-Zephyr-]

There's expectations and then there's what happens.
I don't post BYOH. But when I join one, my understanding is that I'm expected to self heal. Still if someone is better at healing than me he might throw a heal my way ; I just have to not expect any.

[alvarego]

When YOU post a BYOH, is it a black and white issue or shades of gray?

Maybe we need a new LFM moniker, BYOHish

If you're rude enough to post a BYOH then you sure will be rude enough to make it black or white, else you would have choosen some other words, but hey! the good part is you' re not forced to join :D most times I also don't join such LFMs

[Ape_Man]

When YOU post a BYOH, is it a black and white issue or shades of gray?

Maybe we need a new LFM moniker, BYOHish

Grey, I'm not bound by absolutes.

[mons]

Black and white. You are responsible for keeping yourself alive (this does not mean summoning a hireling), however, if I can prevent a death I will toss a heal via scroll/wand or spell. Sh!t happens from time to time to all of us.

[sheepface]

If my LFM says BYOH, that means bring your own heals, end of discussion, regardless of what other classes are in the group. Maybe someone will toss you a heal if you are incap, but don't count on it, look after yourself or join another group.

[Chilldude]

It seems that everyone wants to expect everyone to heal themselves, but they are unwilling to commit to outright saying it.

Black and white or shades of gray?

[thesnoman]

Chill - you know my opinion, but I'll make it clear here.

Shades of gray - depends on the Party leader and the makeup of a PuG.

What it ALWAYS means is that you have some sort of self healing and ability to get rid of poison, disease, neg stats, curses, etc. - Pots, Wands, Scrolls, Spells are all acceptable.

Your role is to not be a mana sponge. - Blue Bars are for offense, but will keep you alive/resurrect you when necessary or you get a backpack ride to the next/nearest shrine. If you die repeatedly you may get a backpack ride to the end of the quest.

EDIT: And so we're clear when I post BYOH I always put IP in the comments as well and it means: I'm a WF Sorc - I'm in the quest or on my way to the quest. I already have buffs and I'm not waiting for a divine. If you're a fleshie I can't heal you so bring your own healing. If you're WF, I'll keep you alive in a pinch but my blue bar is for offensive casting and keeping myself alive. If we get a divine in the group and they don't mind babysitting your red bar, that's their business - they likely won't be watching mine.

[~Susie1262]

If I post BYOH, or join it, I expect people to BYOH. I do not care if there is a heal capable toon in the party or not.

Having said this, 1's happen. We all know it. I won't fuss if you die. I will fuss if you do any of the following:

1) Show up without all your HP to the start of a quest. This is a blatant sign that you have no intention to BYOH whatsoever.

2) Show up to a quest and start asking for buffs that are ship buffs when I already asked if you want a ship invite. Or, if I fail to ask, and you did not deem it prudent to ask for a ship invite.

3) Show up without pots to remove curses, etc. You supposedly have those on a hotbar to use them, why not look to be sure you have them before showing up for a quest? I keep unbound pots on all toons to be able to share, so I do understand that people are human, but showing up for 2 quests in a row without pots is a definite indication that you are not suitable for a BYOH group.

[sheepface]

If you're rude enough to post a BYOH then you sure will be rude enough to make it black or white, else you would have choosen some other words, but hey! the good part is you' re not forced to join :D most times I also don't join such LFMs

I don't get how its rude for someone to expect you to take care of yourself.

[Memnir]

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http://i.imgur.com/ujBfmLI.jpg
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[alvarego]

It seems that everyone wants to expect everyone to heal themselves, but they are unwilling to commit to outright saying it.

Black and white or shades of gray?

Try reading, might help

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

When I post BYOH, it's not a matter of tone. It means I'm not waiting around for a healer, so be prepared to take reasonable care of yourself.

It does mean I expect people to at least have pots, and past lower levels it's likely someone in the party has the means to cure/raise others if you hit a tough spot.

[Chilldude]

I don't get how its rude for someone to expect you to take care of yourself.

That's not what this thread is about. I just want to know what people expect when others join their BYOH.

[Ganolyn]

Grey, I'm not bound by absolutes.


I didn't know you were English....

[sheepface]

That's not what this thread is about. I just want to know what people expect when others join their BYOH.

That comment was not aimed at you.

[taurean430]

That's not what this thread is about. I just want to know what people expect when others join their BYOH.

And why would that be? I ask because this topic is done at least once every two weeks. The responses don't change. And those who lead parties of this type are very clear in their individual expectations.

[Truga]

Did some EE high road in a BYOH group the other day. We had one arcane and zero divines. We did just fine. BYOH means faster completions because the person with heals in the group can concentrate on DEEPS

[Magil]

If my LFM says BYOH, that means bring your own heals, end of discussion, regardless of what other classes are in the group. Maybe someone will toss you a heal if you are incap, but don't count on it, look after yourself or join another group.
Really, I think this sort of mentality should go to all groups. You shouldn't just assume someone will help you, just because of their icon. Some (most?) things are more than easy enough to fix on your own through potions. The hardest part about this really is inventory space, but it'll save you in the long run anyway.

Shame there isn't a bag / case just for potions that you can drink from inside of said container. That'd be awesome.

[Deathdefy]

I think I count as 'grey' despite the fact I think joiners must have the capacity to heal themselves without assistance if need be, even if they might have to hang back and pot quietly for a while after each fight to do so.

Letting them do that where I could easily heal scroll them while continuing onward is insane though, and obviously not what happens in reality.

[sheepface]

Really, I think this sort of mentality should go to all groups. You shouldn't just assume someone will help you, just because of their icon. Some (most?) things are more than easy enough to fix on your own through potions. The hardest part about this really is inventory space, but it'll save you in the long run anyway.

Shame there isn't a bag / case just for potions that you can drink from inside of said container. That'd be awesome.

Its easy to say that as a more advanced player though. I remember the days when I wouldn't even consider setting foot in a quest till there was a healer in the group.

I don't care if some people need a healbot to watch over them, but those players are not welcome in my groups, unless I let them in for my own amusement.

[Chilldude]

And why would that be? I ask because this topic is done at least once every two weeks. The responses don't change. And those who lead parties of this type are very clear in their individual expectations.

The issue at hand could not be more clear. I've never seen it before either. Is BYOH black and white or shades of gray? I've always been of the understanding that BYOH meant exactly that, BYOH, don't count on any healing from anyone else, period. However, today there are several people who are adamantly suggesting that BYOH does NOT mean BYOH in and of itself. They suggest that while some people do indeed mean BYOH, most people ACTUALLY mean BYOHish.

So I am very interested in seeing what people actually think about BYOH. Is it black and white, or is it shades of gray?

[Ryan220]

When I join a BYOH on my Cleric it seems as if many people forget about the BYOH element.

Now I dont mind lobbing out heals in BYOH if it makes the quest run smoother, but its the assumption that I will heal that bothers me.

As such I stay away from BYOH on my Cleric as it avoids misunderstandings

[Kalari]

I will be honest it depends on my mood, hello I am human here not a bot or a hireling, if I post a byoh on any of my divines it means you better be able to help yourself, especially in explorer zones. It does not mean I will laugh when a person dies (well if they do something stupid all bets are off) but I think byoh is pretty clear I am not a baby sitter I am an adventurer and in explorer zones I put on music and just go to task having fun.

Questing is a little different, if I know its a difficult area like Amrath I will still like to have players be able to top themselves off but I won't go without tossing a needed heal, and if they are fighting by me my aura will keep them going.

But honestly its not black white or grey its how players perceive byoh I like it I like to think players should want to take care of themselves because I know on my melees I am looking out for me. But I know not everyone plays that way so its good that when I do put up such things that only players who understand what byoh join. This is also why I solo more because not many do and I honestly do not enjoy what some define as "Team work."

[shajib]

but that does not mean that it's not occasionally more efficient for someone else to heal you (or, in some situations, healing yourself is impossible - it's in no way against BYOH, for example, to heal someone that got incapped or CCed).

That is utter rubbish. BYOH has nothing to do with efficiency. Efficient parties will post zerg. The party is BYOH because they cannot be bothered to wait for a healer and want to carry on with the quest. Obviously it means you musr heal yourself. BOYH and Zerging are entirely two different thing.s

[sheepface]

The issue at hand could not be more clear. I've never seen it before either. Is BYOH black and white or shades of gray? I've always been of the understanding that BYOH meant exactly that, BYOH, don't count on any healing from anyone else, period. However, today there are several people who are adamantly suggesting that BYOH does NOT mean BYOH in and of itself. They suggest that while some people do indeed mean BYOH, most people ACTUALLY mean BYOHish.

So I am very interested in seeing what people actually think about BYOH. Is it black and white, or is it shades of gray?

I think you would be best of assuming it was black and white when joining such a group and if someone decides to toss you a heal, good for you. If the lfm says BYOH don't count on heals though, don't join if you are not prepared to do so.

[ddo.rsmo.pt]

Is it just me, or is this YABT?

Carry on.

[Ganolyn]

I never count on anyone doing anything for me and I'm usually not disappointed.

[Mastikator]

Black and white. You are responsible for keeping yourself alive (this does not mean summoning a hireling), however, if I can prevent a death I will toss a heal via scroll/wand or spell. Sh!t happens from time to time to all of us.

This basically is my opinion too. I'm neutral when it comes to whether I prefer BOYH, I tend to prefer them out of necessity, I generally don't want to wait for a healer that probably won't even come, and I don't want a group that is completely allergic to splitting up.
I'm ok with using hirelings to heal, they don't add to dungeon scaling much and quests tend to be shortmanned anyway so there's room for the hireling.

[taurean430]

The issue at hand could not be more clear. I've never seen it before either. Is BYOH black and white or shades of gray? I've always been of the understanding that BYOH meant exactly that, BYOH, don't count on any healing from anyone else, period. However, today there are several people who are adamantly suggesting that BYOH does NOT mean BYOH in and of itself. They suggest that while some people do indeed mean BYOH, most people ACTUALLY mean BYOHish.

So I am very interested in seeing what people actually think about BYOH. Is it black and white, or is it shades of gray?

Then it appears that you have mistaken the meaning of being prepared versus not being prepared. There are no varying degrees. If you join a BYOH group the expectation is there that you have a way to keep yourself up. Others may or may not help you with that. Yet the quest/raid is not being run with the expectation that those with a divine icon will be watching the red bars of others. Or present at all for that matter.

Those participating in runs of this type should be able to take care of themselves. It doesn't imply that they will not receive healing assistance at all. If they choose not to, then they have no business being there. There are a variety of other group types that are comfortable placing all of the responsibility onto one or two players for their own survival.

The runs, be they quest or raid, are done with players that can manage their own status.

[Chilldude]

Then it appears that you have mistaken the meaning of being prepared versus not being prepared. There are no varying degrees. If you join a BYOH group the expectation is there that you have a way to keep yourself up. Others may or may not help you with that. Yet the quest/raid is not being run with the expectation that those with a divine icon will be watching the red bars of others.


No, I have mistaken nothing. I am asking, and you're answer appears to be a reluctant B&W.

[Clatterfist]

If I were using the term, it'd be a way to let people know that we don't have a person in the team willing to play a dedicated healing role. That's a fairly straightforwards denotation, how they respond to it is really up to them.

[psykopeta]

when i post byoh mean byoh, we're prolly split and you may die if are expecting someone to heal u(i've seen fvs/clrs leaving incap players die lol), so black and white

if i want grey, i post selfsufficient. that means you can selfheal, not that you MUST selfheal(bring your own healing... is for you lol )

and never,ever gonna wait/expect for a dedicated healer

my first 6 lives were as divine, started as dedicated healer and everytime less and less(cause wasn't joining in a group that asks for a dedicated healer in 99% of times, if they need it they should take a hire lol) til the point im gonna heal only to incap players, with the same sp a divine/arcane can "save" a toon, the same divine/arcane can save the day/quest

of course that arcane/divine could do both and chuck pots like mad, but 13th life actually, think i¡ve received...10 pots from those who yell "hjeal" every sec

conclusion: if i post byoh don't expect much from me, the buffs at start/shrine and some help in critical situations (that u know are coming before they appear), if 2 players try to keep 1 alive, means that 1 is better dead

[Paleus]

It means you may not yell "hJeal me" every 3.5 seconds


^This. Just about the only common denominator you'll find from BYOH LFM to LFM is the basic expectation that you are at least capable of rolling through a quest without demanding a heal from someone else every 5 second. After that point it gets down to shades of gray.

Some people seem to think hirelings are ok, others don't. Some think it means you need to devote an entire page of inventory to every single pot, scroll, clickie imaginable, others dont. Some think it means that even if you are capable of healing someone else, its better to take the -10% penalty to the quest so that you can stand on your principles, etc etc.

Since four letters are completely incapable of describing the variety of minor permutations on expectations of BYOH, and really only a small portion of the player base bothers reading the forums to learn of the divine and inspired wisdom on what is the right way to label and run a quest handed down and then argued about in a hundred different ways every other week, its best to just go with the above quoted basic level of expectations and if you demand more to be willing to communicate that.

[taurean430]

No, I have mistaken nothing. I am asking, and you're answer appears to be a reluctant B&W.

Then I suggest you check my posting history. Or read more carefully. Whichever works for you.

[Chilldude]

If I were using the term, it'd be a way to let people know that we don't have a person in the team willing to play a dedicated healing role. That's a fairly straightforwards denotation, how they respond to it is really up to them.

So you honestly don't know where you personally stand on the issue? You don't know if you expect people to be entirely responsible for their own HP when they join your BYOH party or not?

[Chilldude]

Some people seem to think hirelings are ok, others don't. Some think it means you need to devote...

I'm asking what YOU think.

[brickwall]

When i list Byoh it means you are to heal your self i generally will not assist another player in any manor that will not benefit my self. if your about to die and we still have 10% bonus i may drop 1 heal scroll on you to keep my 10% and tell you to back off and not die. Once the 10% is gone your going in the backpack unless i require you for something that's where you will stay not wasting my scrolls on you. Scrolls and supply's are not free i did not buy them to help anyone but my self. Even if I'm playing a class that gets healing spells i will not take or use any type of healing that costs SP blue bar is for Damage only. If a player cant hold there own and be of use to the party then they do not need to be in my party I'm not a charity I'm not your power leveler i don't get payed to drag people quest to quest. If i cant find any value in a player in my party i send em to the unemployment line. I really don't need a bunch of waste of space players scaling up the quest that i could have just soloed in a reasonable amount of time. I'm sorry but these are the fact the system is setup to discourage me from wanting sub par players in my party. Everything has to be just right your either a part of the solution or a part of the problem and that's just how it is until they change things to hold up the short comings of sub par players. a possible solution would be to offer me an additional 10% exp for every additional member past 3 members.

[Chilldude]

Then I suggest you check my posting history. Or read more carefully. Whichever works for you.

What works for me is when you post a BYOH, you either expect everyone to take full responsibility for their own HP, or you don't. You either don't know or aren't willing to commit.

[Systern]

You can rely only on yourself to keep you standing; it is your responsibility. You can expect (i.e. not be surprised when) other party members help you out when it's convenient and expedient to do so.


Your example of a pure fighter joining a 5 WF wizard party and complaining about BYOH is a contrived extreme. A rogue wand whipping, or a bard helping top off, a light monk on the run to the next fight is a courtesy that is not uncommon (which is still appreciated and not mandated).


Oh, and sorry, I'm actually breaking the fight club rules here. See, if you had any actual experience with BYOH, you'd know it's code. It's like my gay friends that discretely ask someone "Do you cook?" instead of just outting someone that their 'gaydar'/wishful-thinking hones in on. BYOH actually stands for Bestiality: Young Ostrich Humping.... The BYOH community is more perverse, deviant, and anti-social than you originally claimed.... (Sadly, you can't actually prove me wrong, cuz you don't know, cuz you've never been in one. All other respondents denying this claim are just trying to repair the breech in Fight Club Code. )

[Chilldude]

You can rely only on yourself to keep you standing; it is your responsibility. You can expect (i.e. not be surprised when) other party members help you out when it's convenient and expedient to do so.


So black and white then. Was that so hard?

[Deathdefy]

Those participating in runs of this type should be able to take care of themselves. It doesn't imply that they will not receive healing assistance at all.


No, I have mistaken nothing. I am asking, and you're answer appears to be a reluctant B&W.

I think the classification system could use some additional explanation as I thought Taurean's response fell solidly within grey.

EDIT: Ditto for Systern's.

[Clatterfist]

So you honestly don't know where you personally stand on the issue? You don't know if you expect people to be entirely responsible for their own HP when they join your BYOH party or not?

I guess you could say that I'm shades of grey. I expect them to have read and understood and message and therefore taken some apropriate measures, but I don't expect those measures to be perfect or foolproof. I understand that potion stacks or spell points (eg, ranger or paladin) can run out or prove insufficient, or that "their" OH might be a hireling that we end up having to kick to make room for someone else. If I started a BYOH group and someone came in and wandered around half-dead without having seemingly expended any resources on self-care then I'd probably experience a certain amount of disaprobation, but if someone asks for a remove curse because their measures didn't cover that then I'm not going to sweat it. I would also heal others where it was prudent to do so. I'm kind of a softie, though.

[AzB]

So my question is simple, when you post BYOH, is it a black and white issue or is it shades of gray like some have suggested?



Invalid question. I have never posted BYOH, and I've never joined an LFM that required BYOH.

[Chilldude]

I guess you could say that I'm shades of grey. I expect them to have read and understood and message and therefore taken some apropriate measures, but I don't expect those measures to be perfect or foolproof. I understand that potion stacks or spell points (eg, ranger or paladin) can run out or prove insufficient, or that "their" OH might be a hireling that we end up having to kick to make room for someone else. If I started a BYOH group and someone came in and wandered around half-dead without having seemingly expended any resources on self-care then I'd probably experience a certain amount of disaprobation, but if someone asks for a remove curse because their measures didn't cover that then I'm not going to sweat it. I would also heal others where it was prudent to do so. I'm kind of a softie, though.

Look, I understand people are shades of gray. However, BYOH has never seemed very gray to me. There are many here on the forums that are quite clear that when they post it they are very B&W about it, you'd better be able to heal entirely take care of yourself.

If people are truly as gray as they claim to be, I wonder if the community as a whole wouldn't be better served it they used BYOHish instead of BYOH? Will you promise to use BYOHish from now on?

[Phidius]

When I post BYOH, it's not a matter of tone. It means I'm not waiting around for a healer, so be prepared to take reasonable care of yourself.
...

This describes my attitude as well.


Look, I understand people are shades of gray. However, BYOH has never seemed very gray to me. There are many here on the forums that are quite clear that when they post it they are very B&W about it, you'd better be able to heal entirely take care of yourself.

If people are truly as gray as they claim to be, I wonder if the community as a whole wouldn't be better served it they used BYOHish instead of BYOH? Will you promise to use BYOHish from now on?

To be honest, I don't understand what you mean by "Black and White or Grey"... BYOH is an acronym that reflects a play style - it doesn't matter if you type it in B&W, Grey, or 256bit color.

The problem isn't what color (or lack of color) you type it in, but rather what is meant by it. It's pretty rare to find 2 people who define it the same way.

My solution isn't to make yet another acronym, but instead to use multiple acronyms to convey my playstyle to prospective party members.

Ex: BYOH, must be flagged, First2Click, YLYC, IP, don't release

[Kalari]

nope because when I put BYOH it means that be able to heal yourself, it does not mean that I will not get a person if I can it just means they should be able to care for themselves. I honestly don't get the need to add the extra ish either so its like I said it doesn't seem like any kind of issue outside those who don't agree with it or agree with it so much that they shove it down others throats. Both extremes are kinda annoying. Specially since there is no right way to play ddo outside of however we personally enjoy playing. I just think putting that in the lfm pretty much states what is expected and a lot of times more then not when a divine is in the group you may get healed as well but it should not be expected to be watched over.

[Karavek]

oh chilly little one you just cant let this thing go it seems.

Look for me since launch this is largely what occurs from what ive seen first hand in most pug byoh groups. We run in, no one waste time on buffs. we use self buffs as needed in reaction to what we encounter. If someone takes a bad hit and goes incapped someone else uses anything, worst case being the aid bracers from korthos to get that downed man up and back on the move. If someone gets killed, odds are others can rez if its of the right lvl range, otherwise its a ride to the next shrine with maybe a few laughs but rarely any real harassment.

It is indeed usually the presence of extremely lacking in self healing types that cause friction in such groups, meaning they are typical kamikaze barbs with no thought to self recovery or mitigation through tactics like tripping.

Sure there are extremist in the BYOH camp like in all the rest, but at least imo BYOH players typically seem among the most welcoming and least critical players to randomly join up with. Especially if I am running a clonk, or some other strange multi class that purists hate on with a passion.

[Juduss]

The question is simple, when YOU post BYOH, is it black and white or shades of gray?

Both


Grey, I'm not bound by absolutes.

Only Sith deal in absolutes...
Oh ****, wrong genre...

[Chilldude]

Sure there are extremist in the BYOH camp like in all the rest, but at least imo BYOH players typically seem among the most welcoming and least critical players to randomly join up with.

So to avoid confusion, you'll be using BYOHish from now on?

[Deathdefy]

If people are truly as gray as they claim to be, I wonder if the community as a whole wouldn't be better served it they used BYOHish instead of BYOH? Will you promise to use BYOHish from now on?

But that's the thing; everyone save this tiny minority do understand BYOH to mean a very similar thing.
i.e. Be prepared to heal yourself but don't be shocked if the group helps each other.

It's a standard construction most people realize organically or through trying out this type of group, and doesn't need to be qualified to BYOH-ish.

If you campaigned to get the hardcore I-will-heal-literally-no-one-else-at-any-point types to qualify their lfms to "BYOH - Not healing anyone but myself" I'd be on board.

[Clatterfist]

Look, I understand people are shades of gray. However, BYOH has never seemed very gray to me. There are many here on the forums that are quite clear that when they post it they are very B&W about it, you'd better be able to heal entirely take care of yourself.

If people are truly as gray as they claim to be, I wonder if the community as a whole wouldn't be better served it they used BYOHish instead of BYOH? Will you promise to use BYOHish from now on?

Nope - sorry! Like I said in the first place, I'm conveying information to people who might want to join the group: we have no dedicated healer, so you'll have to capacity to look after yourself. I can't control their exact response even I wanted to, and I'm asking them to bring their own heals, not their own healsish.

I don't quite understand how it can be entirely black and white anyway, as all healing is limited in either absolute amount or amount over time. In BYOH situations you've often go to make do the best you can and that potential varies considerably from character to character.

[Chilldude]

But that's the thing; everyone save this tiny minority do understand BYOH to mean a very similar thing.
i.e. Be prepared to heal yourself but don't be shocked if the group helps each other.

It's a standard construction most people realize organically or through trying out this type of group, and doesn't need to be qualified to BYOH-ish.

If you campaigned to get the hardcore I-will-heal-literally-no-one-else-at-any-point types to qualify their lfms to "BYOH - Not healing anyone but myself" I'd be on board.

But they don't have to. Their LFM actually describes exactly what they expect, everyone to bring their own heals. YOUR LFM apparently means bring a stack of pots, but sit back and watch the heals roll in.

[Karavek]

Also I never use the term BYOh I use Prepared adventurers welcome or PAW. which means what it says, adventurers who are as prepared as possible for anything at all times.

Id sooner take a first life newb who was as prepped as possible then a final life barby completionist if they still saw a divine as a healer.

Its about bringing your A game, part of that is having every possible consumable you can carry. your bags are not for loot they are for gear to face the unknown. If you are at lvl 20 with more then a single page of space for loot your not prepared enough

[eden2760]

Another thread, seriously? This is like a case of you not liking the answer mommy gives you so you go ask daddy in hopes of getting another answer.

You're making it much too complicated. BYOH is supposed to mean "any EXPECTATIONS" of incoming healing are off the table. Most people will toss you a heal or two if they see you're getting super low, but you're not supposed to expect it.

Again... I'm not sure why this is even a topic, given that there is no more a definitive answer for this than there is the question of how many hp are "minimum" for class/build x?

All it takes is 1 tell to a party leader to determine what their exact intentions are. Then the grayness for that particular lfm is taken away entirely. Problem solved.

I'm beginning to think all these threads are for trolling, because it's just not this complicated.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

The issue at hand could not be more clear. I've never seen it before either. Is BYOH black and white or shades of gray? I've always been of the understanding that BYOH meant exactly that, BYOH, don't count on any healing from anyone else, period. However, today there are several people who are adamantly suggesting that BYOH does NOT mean BYOH in and of itself. They suggest that while some people do indeed mean BYOH, most people ACTUALLY mean BYOHish.

So I am very interested in seeing what people actually think about BYOH. Is it black and white, or is it shades of gray?

I looks like what you're actually interested in is having people agree with your stance and being fussy when not everyone does.

The better (rhetorical) question is: Why does it matter to you?

[eden2760]

You can rely only on yourself to keep you standing; it is your responsibility. You can expect (i.e. not be surprised when) other party members help you out when it's convenient and expedient to do so.

Thread should be closed. This is the answer.

[Paleus]

I'm asking what YOU think.

Apologies that my post was unclear, I quoted exactly what I think it means then followed with an explanation of why I think it means that, though the internets and my lack of a good writing style appears to have confused it.

I think it means dont demands heals every 3.5 seconds (i.e. basic self-sufficiency compentency), but beyond that its open to individual player interpretation to such an extent that I expect nothing else from others and expect to communicate any other expectations beyond that. I personally roll out with a page full of consumables, no hirelings, whatever class healing abilities I have and rejuvenation cocoon when using EDs and its possible, and I'll toss a teammate heals to avoid -10% if its not too much trouble, but carrying soul stones can sometimems equally be not much trouble from my view. But thats just me, and since I dont expect others to play the way I play I expect only that aforementioned bare minimum.

[Chilldude]

Nope - sorry! Like I said in the first place, I'm conveying information to people who might want to join the group: we have no dedicated healer, so you'll have to capacity to look after yourself. I can't control their exact response even I wanted to, and I'm asking them to bring their own heals, not their own healsish.

I don't quite understand how it can be entirely black and white anyway, as all healing is limited in either absolute amount or amount over time. In BYOH situations you've often go to make do the best you can and that potential varies considerably from character to character.

So you are saying... you are shades of gray on the whole BYOH issue, but when someone joins your party you expect that they, "bring their own heals, not their own healsish." That seems pretty black and white to me. You don't seem to be saying you're fine with people joining that can kinda heal themselves. You seem to want people who can actually take full responsibility for their HP.

[Chilldude]

Also I never use the term BYOh I use Prepared adventurers welcome or PAW. which means what it says, adventurers who are as prepared as possible for anything at all times.



Did you not read the title of this thread? The PAW thread is that away ->

[Deathdefy]

But they don't have to. Their LFM actually describes exactly what they expect, everyone to bring their own heals. YOUR LFM apparently means bring a stack of pots, but sit back and watch the heals roll in.

Both:
-"My" groups (which is a ridiculous description - "byoh lfms in general at least on Khyber"), and
-"I will heal literally no one else" groups
both require all participants to "bring their own heals".

Yes, in the first type, they often won't drink their whole stack of pots. Having said that, most people are wand and scrollers in byoh groups of all sorts, simply because they attract people that don't really enjoy heal handouts.


The group 1 of byoh lfms are the vast majority.

So, the tiny minority of lfms that conform with your knee-jerk reaction of what byoh meant, having never tried one, should be the one to change, not the well-established type the community has an understanding of.

[Chilldude]

Apologies that my post was unclear, I quoted exactly what I think it means then followed with an explanation of why I think it means that, though the internets and my lack of a good writing style appears to have confused it.

I think it means dont demands heals every 3.5 seconds (i.e. basic self-sufficiency compentency), but beyond that its open to individual player interpretation to such an extent that I expect nothing else from others and expect to communicate any other expectations beyond that. I personally roll out with a page full of consumables, no hirelings, whatever class healing abilities I have and rejuvenation cocoon when using EDs and its possible, and I'll toss a teammate heals to avoid -10% if its not too much trouble, but carrying soul stones can sometimems equally be not much trouble from my view. But thats just me, and since I dont expect others to play the way I play I expect only that aforementioned bare minimum.

Dude, you're killin' me here. It's simple, you either expect someone who joins your BYOH to take full responsibility for their HP or you don't.

[Chilldude]

Thread should be closed. This is the answer.

You are welcome to stop participating in this thread whenever you so choose. However, you are not welcome to tell me or anyone else what we can and can not discuss. GYOT -get your own thread.

[Chilldude]

I looks like what you're actually interested in is having people agree with your stance and being fussy when not everyone does.

The better (rhetorical) question is: Why does it matter to you?

It matters to me because, well.... gosh, why don't you go read the OP and see why it matters to me?

[Karavek]

So black and white then. Was that so hard?

actually the quote you reply to is more a real world way of life for any person who wants to call themselves free.

BYOH is like the militia instead of the military. We dont live by hard orders, we dont obey someone else cus they say they are leader. we fight how we fight, drink how we drink, and love how we love with no need to define it further.

Stop trying to paint one of if not the most diverse of the player population with a broad stroke.

Frankly considering how you swear you avoid BYOH groups and have no real idea how they play your constant ranting about the topic makes you look very silly.

Talk about what you know, what you do, not waht you assume others do in their groups.

If you pug you take what you get, and that means being ready to cover your own ass because in this life you are the only one you can ever truly depend on, and if you cant well here is a revolver with a single round for you to deal with that problem head on. Hopefully you can at least depend on yourself long enough to make one point blank shot.

No im not saying you should or encouraging it, im saying anyone who cant depend on themselves should.

So can you depend on yourself?

Or let me phrase it another way. Whom do you side with? Batman or Superman. If you answered superman then your life is wasted and its time to end has come.

[eden2760]

You are welcome to stop participating in this thread whenever you so choose. However, you are not welcome to tell me or anyone else what we can and can not discuss. GYOT -get your own thread.

TY for explaining the acronym.

Oh crud... what was BYOH again?

And for the record I wasn't telling you what you can discuss... I was merely pointing out that the quoted answer was a perfect explanation of what BYOH means. If you don't like it, feel free to start making up definitions... but you got your answer, ignored or not. :p

[Kalari]

actually the quote you reply to is more a real world way of life for any person who wants to call themselves free.

BYOH is like the militia instead of the military. We dont live by hard orders, we dont obey someone else cus they say they are leader. we fight how we fight, drink how we drink, and love how we love with no need to define it further.

Stop trying to paint one of if not the most diverse of the player population with a broad stroke.

Frankly considering how you swear you avoid BYOH groups and have no real idea how they play your constant ranting about the topic makes you look very silly.

Talk about what you know, what you do, not waht you assume others do in their groups.

If you pug you take what you get, and that means being ready to cover your own ass because in this life you are the only one you can ever truly depend on, and if you cant well here is a revolver with a single round for you to deal with that problem head on. Hopefully you can at least depend on yourself long enough to make one point blank shot.

No im not saying you should or encouraging it, im saying anyone who cant depend on themselves should.

So can you depend on yourself?

Or let me phrase it another way. Whom do you side with? Batman or Superman. If you answered superman then your life is wasted and its time to end has come.

This, if byoh is not for you that is fine, but I dont' see the point of this crusade of yours its pretty easy to avoid groups you don't like. I don't rally against the "know it" lfm's even though they annoy me, and I don't write thread posts about them because I dont know how they run maybe the people who join do "know it." this game is big enough for all types it just comes down to respecting those who are different and avoiding them.

[MarcusCleardawn]

Think it's best to view it as an absolute and then be pleasantly surprised when someone tosses you a gift.

Personally, unless you're very new to the game, I think everyone should:
1. Have more than enough spell ingredients to run through a couple of quests without having to go back for more.
2. Carry cures/preventatives for the common issues:
Feather fall, underwater action, remove curse/bindness/poison/disease, lesser restoration, heal/repair potions or scrolls.

Even new players treat the repair bills as a cost of doing business. I'm just surprised that they don't extend that mentality to potions.

[Chilldude]

Stop trying to paint one of if not the most diverse of the player population with a broad stroke.

Frankly considering how you swear you avoid BYOH groups and have no real idea how they play your constant ranting about the topic makes you look very silly.

I have always avoided BYOH because I thought it meant BYOH. Now you and many others are adamant that it does not mean BYOH, merely bring a stack of pots and when you start chugging that will be an indication for someone else to heal you.

I don't believe you. I think BYOH does mean BYOH. So I'm asking the community. Rather than giving a clear answer you keep talking in circles. Rather than just leaving your response and moving on, you keep trying to argue. Why are you so obsessed with this thread? Why don't you just move along?

[voodoogroves]

I'm going to start posting LFMs with "Bill Parcels" instead of "BYOH".



Blame no one. Expect nothing. Do something.

[Chilldude]

if byoh is not for you that is fine, but I dont' see the point of this crusade of yours

I don't see the point of your response. I've said multiple times I'm trying to get clarification about what BYOH means. If you are not interested in the thread, there are dozens of others for you to partake in.

[Karavek]

I have always avoided BYOH because I thought it meant BYOH. Now you and many others are adamant that it does not mean BYOH, merely bring a stack of pots and when you start chugging that will be an indication for someone else to heal you.

I don't believe you. I think BYOH does mean BYOH. So I'm asking the community. Rather than giving a clear answer you keep talking in circles. Rather than just leaving your response and moving on, you keep trying to argue. Why are you so obsessed with this thread? Why don't you just move along?

still waking up, first cup of coffee, bored and forum dramedy makes me chuckle.

current best whiners for a chuckle are your anti byoh rants and chai's p2w whino fests.

seriously though if you dont want to watch your own life bar play a game with gawd mode.

[Chai]

Its about bringing your A game, part of that is having every possible consumable you can carry. your bags are not for loot they are for gear to face the unknown. If you are at lvl 20 with more then a single page of space for loot your not prepared enough

What do I need 4-5 pages of stuff for? This is D&D not Legend of Zelda. :p

Lets see....Epic antique great ax. Which I will use against most of the stuff the toon fights.
Triple + maul for undead.
Something to beat oozes and rusties with.
Heal scrolls.
Curse pots.
2 x shroud displace clickys.
Stack of cure pots, just in case jumping underwater and healing up is an option.
---------------------------------
8 slots - Those are the absolutes all my melee toons need.

SO what are you ramming into the other 4+ pages of bags that is absolutely needed?

[eden2760]

I don't see the point of your response. I've said multiple times I'm trying to get clarification about what BYOH means. If you are not interested in the thread, there are dozens of others for you to partake in.

There is no clarification, at least not the kind that you want. It is open to interpretation.

WHY are you trying to get clarification? Are you going to suddenly start joining the evil BYOH groups if it means something other than the reason you've been avoiding it?

If so, then just ask the leader of a party what their expectations are before joining.

This can't be made any clearer: You can't apply one definition to every lfm that is posted, no matter what they post. If you try to, you're only going to end up going in circles.

[Kalari]

how more clear does BYOH need to be for you though dude, there have been several responses some are the same many arent its up to the player to determined what it means to them. Either way I don't see you ever wanting to be in a BYOH group so it really does seem more like you once again stating that and not a "Fact finding mission" but you are right with the 24+ hr down time there are many other threads that I can be reading you have fun reading the same responses over and over again.

[Systern]

But they don't have to. Their LFM actually describes exactly what they expect, everyone to bring their own heals. YOUR LFM apparently means bring a stack of pots, but sit back and watch the heals roll in.

I said this in the other thread, and it apparently didn't sink in... Most attitudes are "We'll help you help yourself." Not "You're on your own." You want to believe it's "you're own your own". Yo keep reiterating and spinning people's answers to try and conform it to "you're on your own". There were a couple of completionists that responded that indeed with them "you're on your own", but that's not most people's experiences.

BYOH does not mean "Solo a tower [in EE wiz king]". It does not mean "UMD 39 or Decline." It means that a more advanced style of play other than "In korthos I learned I could have a cleric hireling on defend surf the bloody wake of my awesomeness as I charged through everything". Because no one's going to focus on you. No one else is going to accept the responsibility to keep you standing.

In my opinion, a light monk that Abundant Steps in, takes out the caster, then Abundant Step backs to a few party members, stuns one, turtles up/blocks, chuggs a pot while they get aggro, and then pounds on backs to help the group expediently deal with the encounter is BYOHing. And while that monk runs with a partymate to the next encounter, if he's seen jump-chugging another pot to top himself off; it's natural that the rogue/arti/bard/ranger/whomever will toss a CMW or wand-whip or scroll to help him out. Be prepared to be on your own. Never take for granted the assistance that a stranger is giving you. A little gratitude goes a long way. Make it easy for them to do you a favor, and most people will.

[Chilldude]

seriously though if you dont want to watch your own life bar play a game with gawd mode.

Where do you come up with this stuff? What does that have to with this thread? I've asked a very clear and simple question that you seem completely incapable of answering, yet you seem absolutely enthralled by me and can't tear yourself away.

[spartin]

i think there are about 50 shades of grey.

[eden2760]

What do I need 4-5 pages of stuff for? This is D&D not Legend of Zelda. :p

Lets see....Epic antique great ax. Which I will use against most of the stuff the toon fights.
Triple + maul for undead.
Something to beat oozes and rusties with.
Heal scrolls.
Curse pots.
2 x shroud displace clickys.
Stack of cure pots, just in case jumping underwater and healing up is an option.
---------------------------------
8 slots - Those are the absolutes all my melee toons need.

SO what are you ramming into the other 4+ pages of bags that is absolutely needed?

That's what YOU need for your self-sufficiency.

Less experienced players, or players that have a low skill level need more. More experienced players need less. But all should have WHAT THEY NEED, not be ill-prepared for what the quest has to throw at them. I think that was the point.

[Chilldude]

There is no clarification, at least not the kind that you want. It is open to interpretation.



Why don't you give your answer and move on then? Why do feel compelled to stalk a thread you aren't interested in?

[SirValentine]

There's the initial expectation that you MUST be capable of healing yourself, but that does not mean that it's not occasionally more efficient for someone else to heal you (or, in some situations, healing yourself is impossible - it's in no way against BYOH, for example, to heal someone that got incapped or CCed).


Exactly this.

It's black and white that you MUST be capable of healing yourself. If you can't, you shouldn't be joining an explicit BYOH.

But good team players can and will help each other out as appropriate, so the extent to which you end up self-healing is a shades-of-grey depending on eventual party composition, which quest, luck of the saving throws, etc..

Of course, I don't view that as any different betweeen an LFM that explicitly states BYOH and one that doesn't.

[eden2760]

how more clear does BYOH need to be for you though dude, there have been several responses some are the same many arent its up to the player to determined what it means to them. Either way I don't see you ever wanting to be in a BYOH group so it really does seem more like you once again stating that and not a "Fact finding mission" but you are right with the 24+ hr down time there are many other threads that I can be reading you have fun reading the same responses over and over again.

It's representing some criteria for joining the group. Even if it's ill-clarified, there is some specific criteria that the poster has in mind.

It's the creator's definition that is important, not yours. You're joining his group, he's not joining yours.

BYOH means what the lfm creator thinks it means. If you aren't sure, ask. But don't qq when you join because you thought they meant one thing when they meant another and you didn't ask.

Good call, Kalari.

[eden2760]

Why don't you give your answer and move on then? Why do feel compelled to stalk a thread you aren't interested in?

Remember when you were talking about how selfish this is and has an impact on the community?

Well I find outright ignorance to be my particular area of concern for impact on the community.

You'll poison the minds of our new players, and we can't have that! :)

[Deathdefy]

I don't believe you. I think BYOH does mean BYOH. So I'm asking the community.

Systern's definition is one I think literally every response in this thread save your own agree with - including the ones that say 'black and white' if you actually read the content.

"You can rely only on yourself to keep you standing; it is your responsibility. You can expect (i.e. not be surprised when) other party members help you out when it's convenient and expedient to do so."

BYOH still means BYOH under that definition too. I can't see a way to seamlessly imply the additional constraint of "and do not heal others even if it is convenient" either.

Good downtime killing, but I think you have your consensus at this point.

Off to bed for me anyway.

[Clatterfist]

So you are saying... you are shades of gray on the whole BYOH issue, but when someone joins your party you expect that they, "bring their own heals, not their own healsish." That seems pretty black and white to me. You don't seem to be saying you're fine with people joining that can kinda heal themselves. You seem to want people who can actually take full responsibility for their HP.

I am fine with people joining who can kinda heal themselves. Given that most of the time we'd be a "BYOH" group would be when we don't have a dedicated human healer, pretty much everybody would be "kinda" healing themselves - as opposed to healing themselves like a competent, healing-focused radiant servant could heal them. It won't always be perfect and each recruit's understanding of the term will be a little different, and their actual performance will be subject to external circumstances as well as the nature of their builds. A cash-strapped fighter can heal himself to full with cure moderate potions but it might take a long time; a pale master has his own methodology that he'd be using even if the group had a healer. Both of them are bringing their own heals.

I don't think you need to read such a fine degree of precision into the term. It usually seems to boil down to a group of people trying to complete a quest without a dedicated healer, and wanting members to understand that situation and come prepared.

[Chilldude]

Exactly this.

It's black and white that you MUST be capable of healing yourself. If you can't, you shouldn't be joining an explicit BYOH.

But good team players can and will help each other out as appropriate, so the extent to which you end up self-healing is a shades-of-grey depending on eventual party composition, which quest, luck of the saving throws, etc..

Of course, I don't view that as any different betweeen an LFM that explicitly states BYOH and one that doesn't.

Well, it appears we agree on something. However, it would also appear that you disagree with the person you quoted that you state you agree with. He does not think that it is black and white.

[Chai]

That's what YOU need for your self-sufficiency.

Less experienced players, or players that have a low skill level need more. More experienced players need less. But all should have WHAT THEY NEED, not be ill-prepared for what the quest has to throw at them.

Thats what ANYONE needs for self sufficiency. Even if they dont spend on heal scrolls and go the poison pot + disease pot + blindness pot + wand route, we still arent even up to one full page on the list of what is NEEDED to be considered PREPARED. Even if we add 9 more slots for spell components we STILL arent up to a full page.


think that was the point.


. your bags are not for loot they are for gear to face the unknown. If you are at lvl 20 with more then a single page of space for loot your not prepared enough

The point he made is that you have to bloat your toon with 4 pages of stuff or youre not prepared. And I am asking what people are cramming into 4 pages that they absolutely feel they need to be considered to be prepared.

[Karavek]

[QUOTE=Chilldude;4894620]I have always avoided BYOH because I thought it meant BYOH. Now you and many others are adamant that it does not mean BYOH, merely bring a stack of pots and when you start chugging that will be an indication for someone else to heal you.

nooo this is not what we are saying btw. we are saying that as long as you make an effort, and contribute enough to be looked at as a useful ally then you can expect aid. Look BOYH only really restricts first life barbs and fighters lacking dragonmakr halfling or helf dilly from joining, any other build in the game can be self sufficient on a first life enough to be looked at as making an effort.

prior to lvl 10 this isnt even an issue, nor in 20+ as more and more I meet without a blue bar heal ability seem to agree with me in game when i suggest twisting in a reliable bit of self healing.

Only tank and spank zerg fest style play really hiders builds that dominate in a steady yet quick paced byoh group. give us abit of breathing room in between big fights and even having less then 400 hp on each player wont bar much content from your play style. EE is about it where you might hold off till your gear kit is perfected.

BYOH in the end really is about this, do you want the party to fail because the single divine healer in the group took a bad hit and the team fell apart without the baby sitter. We dont so we make sure as many if not all of us in a group can provide a decent emergency spot heal for themselves or another valued ally.

Hell you could be a barby with a few res clickies and a stack of SF pots and be worthy of any byoh spot.

In general BYOH is as impossible to hold toa single standard as PD or any other group. We are who we are and play how we play, join us or dont. but enough with the constant attacks and insults directed at us.

[eden2760]

Thats what ANYONE needs for self sufficiency. Even if they dont spend on heal scrolls and go the poison pot + disease pot + blindness pot + wand route, we still arent even up to one full page on the list of what is NEEDED to be considered PREPARED. Even if we add 9 more slots for spell components we STILL arent up to a full page.

And no, the point he made is that you have to bloat your toon with 4 pages of stuff or youre not prepared.

Well then I would disagree with the fact that you need 4 pages of stuff. I simply meant whatever you needed personally as a matter of self-sufficiency, and the fact that it varies between players. Yes... I would say that 4 pages of stuff for self-sufficiency is overkill :p

[Chilldude]

nooo this is not what we are saying btw. we are saying that as long as you make an effort, and contribute enough to be looked at as a useful ally then you can expect aid. Look BOYH only really restricts first life barbs and fighters lacking dragonmakr halfling or helf dilly from joining, any other build in the game can be self sufficient on a first life enough to be looked at as making an effort

Well, that's entirely what's at issue here now isn't it?

You claim BYOH merely requires one make an effort. There are plenty of people who have responded that they most certainly expect more than an effort, they expect you to be able to take full responsibility of your own HP in their groups.

[Chai]

Well, that's entirely what's at issue here now isn't it?

You claim BYOH merely requires one make an effort. There are plenty of people who have responded that they most certainly expect more than an effort, they expect you to be able to take full responsibility of your own HP in their groups.

Thats kind of what the OP is saying. For instance there are divines who post BYOH groups who will heal people in parties in combat but expect you to top yourself off afterward out of combat, then theres divines who absolutely wont heal, even as far as letting people die, because blade barrier and kill counts are more important. I am all for the former, but the latter should have played a sorc. :p

[eden2760]

Well, that's entirely what's at issue here now isn't it?

You claim BYOH merely requires one make an effort. There are plenty of people who have responded that they most certainly expect more than an effort, they expect you to be able to take full responsibility of your own HP in their groups.

Srs: Do you ever post BYOH lfms?

I only ask, because if you do, you'd surely have an answer to this.
If you don't, then that means you don't post them... you don't join them.... therefore it has no impact on you whatsoever.

I bet you're the same type of person that plays melees, and then gripes about changes to other classes that make them "OP" and start crying for nerfs, because it's just such an unfair world to you. :d

[Nedime]

Since the servers are still down and we're all just sitting around bored, I want to clear up some confusion about BYOH. Quite a few people in another thread are suggesting that BYOH is a shades gray type deal. Where as long as you have some pots, you're good to go, you can expect others to help you out with heals along the way.

Now I know there are plenty of people in the community who feel very strongly that BYOH is a very clear and extremely black and white. When they post BYOH they mean it. In fact, a couple of people in that thread made it very clear that they definitely mean it when they post BYOH.

So my question is simple, when you post BYOH, is it a black and white issue or is it shades of gray like some have suggested?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The early lead seems to be going to gray.

Perhaps people should start using BYOHish in their LFMs instead?


He he he been out for a couple hours, found 10 unread pages on the previous thread - And now this one.

As Tremas would say : what does it take to make you give up ?

-------

Because you asked for a clear answer I'll say : gray




EDIT : I rarely post BYOH LFMs I prefer to put IP.

[~Susie1262]

Also I never use the term BYOh I use Prepared adventurers welcome or PAW. which means what it says, adventurers who are as prepared as possible for anything at all times.

Id sooner take a first life newb who was as prepped as possible then a final life barby completionist if they still saw a divine as a healer.

Its about bringing your A game, part of that is having every possible consumable you can carry. your bags are not for loot they are for gear to face the unknown. If you are at lvl 20 with more then a single page of space for loot your not prepared enough

I disagree. I play all blue bars, but I do understand that melee have more gear needs. Still, this is an over-generalization. Most players should certainly have sufficient means to keep themselves alive during all but the most challenging EE content. However, they should know what to expect out of a quest enough to be able to trade items into and out of the bank to minimize what they are actually carrying. If they deem it necessary to carry every item they own for every possible contingency in the game, then I respectfully deem them unsuitable for most BYOH or other quests. As this indicates an astonishing lack of preparation.

[Ancient]

Shades of grey. I'll heal and help out, but I won't be a crutch. The definition of crutch is vague and entirely up to me on a case by case basis.

I don't like the phrase BYOHish, and I think someone who has such a publicly voiced poor opinion of BYOH groups would be the last one I would want dictating the names/terms used by BYOH groups.

[Clatterfist]

Well, that's entirely what's at issue here now isn't it?

You claim BYOH merely requires one make an effort. There are plenty of people who have responded that they most certainly expect more than an effort, they expect you to be able to take full responsibility of your own HP in their groups.

I don't understand that notion, as you can't know beforehand with total clarity how much damage you'll be taking in how short a timeframe, and there's no guarantee that whatever measures you have available will cover all possible circumstances - including crowd control. Even a healing-specced Radiant Servant can still die if he takes enough damage fast enough, and no one could say he didn't bring his own healing: so "full responsibility of your own HP" has to mean something more nuanced, and then aren't we simply at risk of trading one ambiguity for another?

[Nedime]

i think there are about 50 shades of grey.

53 - I checked.



---------------------------------
8 slots - Those are the absolutes all my melee toons need.

SO what are you ramming into the other 4+ pages of bags that is absolutely needed?
Tasty ham ?

[Orratti]

The lfm posting is black and white and pretty simple. Bring your own healing. Don't expect someone else to heal your wounds. It is your job to take care of.

What actually happens makes it appear gray. Should a character with decent healing abilities join they will often heal. That doesn't change the rules or the meaning of byoh, people in a group often enjoy helping others out, even though it isn't required at all. They just as well have the choice not to do so and that is fine. How awesome is that?

Sometimes it gets funny as well. When you have a group running around wand whipping or scrolling themselves or others it can get pretty exciting.

The only reason I don't join more byoh these days are because of things unstated. BYOH isn't enough to cover some of the stuff you can get into. Some examples.

"BYOH and btw if you just happen to die I'm going to throw a fit over 10% xp loss"

"BYOH until a divine shows up and then we're going to dump it all on them"

"BYOH failure is an option (or a possibility)" This one I use often.

I use the last one often because byoh is a somewhat iffy proposition unless you're going to exclude everything except self healing blue bars.

[Systern]

Pop quiz, Chilldude...

You're in a non-BYOH group. A lagspike kills the other 5 members of the party. It's up to you to save the day. What do you do?

What do you do?




(BYOH groups are looking for people that can answer that question with an answer other than "Wipe.")

Woah.

[fullmetaljackrabbit]

I read BYOH as "we're not waiting for a healer... so be 100% prepared to heal yourself".

If, on the other hand, a healer does join, I expect them to do the job... just as I expect the trapper to trap, the melees to melee, etc. Healers who refuse to heal are pikers.

Don't take the spot if you can't do the job.

I also don't think BYOH is rude... not like 'know it'... or stupid... like 'TRs at work'.

Seriously, how big a tool do you need to be before a game becomes work? :D

[Chilldude]

The lfm posting is black and white and pretty simple. Bring your own healing. Don't expect someone else to heal your wounds. It is your job to take care of.

It would certainly seem so to me. However, some would have us believe otherwise.

[Ancient]

Why don't you give your answer and move on then? Why do feel compelled to stalk a thread you aren't interested in?

Why do you post so much about a type of group you claim you don't like and won't participate in?

[Chilldude]

(BYOH groups are looking for people that can answer that question with an answer other than "Wipe.")

In like your opinion, man. Woah.

[Chilldude]

Why do you post so much about a type of group you claim you don't like and won't participate in?

I guess the same reason you are posting in this thread after you've already given your answer?


--------edit------------

That, and read the OP and you'll have your answer.

[Ancient]

I guess the same reason you are posting in this thread after you've already given your answer?


--------edit------------

That, and read the OP and you'll have your answer.

You are also tired of people twisting words to throw fits about BYOH groups? I never would have guessed.

[Ingemar]

byoh means 'be your own heals', not pop a hire. :D

Had to figure that one out after getting yelled at a few times :D

I had my most successful lfm's with the description 'byoh IP'.

When I have a toon that can heal, I warn people that I don't look at health bars, if they need a heal don't expect it during the battle, if you think you need a heal after the battle let me know. I have to switch over from my min2 great axe to my healing staff if I'm going to heal well at all and that takes away from killing stuff, as well as letting things pound on me while I try to heal. :(

Never expect a healer to heal you. Be responsible for your red bar, have resources to heal yourself between battles, be appreciative when someone throws you a heal or a buff. There's nothing wrong with be appreciative, even if it is for something that you'd expect. A simple life lesson that helps in many areas in life :D

[Orratti]

I read BYOH as "we're not waiting for a healer... so be 100% prepared to heal yourself".

If, on the other hand, a healer does join, I expect them to do the job... just as I expect the trapper to trap, the melees to melee, etc. Healers who refuse to heal are pikers.

Don't take the spot if you can't do the job.

I hate this way of looking at it. It suckers so many divines into thinking they are going to be able to join a group that can take care of itself without any need for attention only to find out that they joined a group that is no different than any other.

[Clatterfist]

It would certainly seem so to me. However, some would have us believe otherwise.

That's because, as others have said, different group makers may have slightly different intentions when using the term. Some people are more strict than others and everyone has different gaming backgrounds. I'm a relatively easy-going chap so I just leave it up to the players concerned to do what they will with the information I've given them - other people don't count hirelings as a potential source of "own healing" and they are usually good enough to make that clear on the LFM, while still others may have expectations regarding quantity and quality of healing brought and keep a watchful eye on those who join.

[Chilldude]

You are also tired of people twisting words to throw fits about BYOH groups? I never would have guessed.

I guess you didn't read the OP then.

[Phidius]

I guess the same reason you are posting in this thread after you've already given your answer?


--------edit------------

That, and read the OP and you'll have your answer.

I honestly don't understand your definitions of B&W and Grey...

Is your OP claiming that B&W means that each player will only heal themselves, and no others? And that Grey means that people will heal each other when they feel like it?

[Ancient]

I think it's only right that the people who follow a more diluted viewpoint of BYOH should use BYOHish instead.

My LFM is my words. Your LFM is your words. I'm happy with the people that join my LFMs so I have zero motivation to accommodate the needs and desires of someone who's only interaction with BYOH groups seems to be trolling the forums.

I have already answered your original question... Shades of grey. As far as your new name... not a chance.

[Ancient]

I guess you didn't read the OP then.

You guessed wrong.

[Chilldude]

I honestly don't understand your definitions of B&W and Grey...

Is your OP claiming that B&W means that each player will only heal themselves, and no others? And that Grey means that people will heal each other when they feel like it?

NOPE! Not at all. It means... and I think the confusion comes from the fact that BYOH is so obvious to most... B&W as in you should join with the full expectation of being entirely responsible for your own heals... or... more gray... as some have suggested that BYOH merely means bring some pots and make an attempt to heal yourself and others will take care of you.

[Chilldude]

You guessed wrong.

If you read the OP, then there should be little doubt. Point at the words that are giving you trouble and I will help you out, I'm like that, I help people.

[Kalari]

I read BYOH as "we're not waiting for a healer... so be 100% prepared to heal yourself".

If, on the other hand, a healer does join, I expect them to do the job... just as I expect the trapper to trap, the melees to melee, etc. Healers who refuse to heal are pikers.

Don't take the spot if you can't do the job.

I also don't think BYOH is rude... not like 'know it'... or stupid... like 'TRs at work'.

Seriously, how big a tool do you need to be before a game becomes work? :D

I wish you could see the irony of your post the way I do :)

So Tr's who put at work are tools right (not that I agree I find that notion ridiculos to)

But a healer joining a byoh group should do their "Job"

You see what you put there right? I hope so cause I got a little chuckle out of it.

[arkonas]

I read BYOH as "we're not waiting for a healer... so be 100% prepared to heal yourself".

If, on the other hand, a healer does join, I expect them to do the job... just as I expect the trapper to trap, the melees to melee, etc. Healers who refuse to heal are pikers.

Don't take the spot if you can't do the job.

I also don't think BYOH is rude... not like 'know it'... or stupid... like 'TRs at work'.

Seriously, how big a tool do you need to be before a game becomes work? :D

see im not going to agree with this answer unless its stated in a lfm. if the lfms only says byoh and a divine does join. i expect them to have fun and enjoy themselves. if they choose to heal at all then its just a plus for me. i hate forcing someone into a role if they really dont want to be. remember most quests can be done without a divine. im not referring to raiding either which has been done again without divines as well.

[Lyria]

I hate this way of looking at it. It suckers so many divines into thinking they are going to be able to join a group that can take care of itself without any need for attention only to find out that they joined a group that is no different than any other.

Yeah, if I join a "BYOH" group as a divine, I don't expect everyone to suddenly go "Oh look, a cleric/druid/fvs, everyone put away your own healing tools, we've got a healer now!" I mean, I certainly don't mind healing, and I'll toss heals around if it's warranted (and usually have my aura on anyway), but being "group healer" isn't going to be my main focus in a group like that. Pewpewing is. :)

[Chilldude]

Hey now! That's what BYOH means to him, so it's entirely valid. BYOH means something different to everyone. It's your job to ask him before joining on a divine.

[Orratti]

Hey now! That's what BYOH means to him, so it's entirely valid. BYOH means something different to everyone. It's your job to ask him before joining on a divine.

I like sarcasm it makes me smirk.

Yeah that is the problem isn't it. Somehow it means different things to different people. That is the reason you can't just join a byoh lfm and know what you're gonna get.

[Clatterfist]

Hey now! That's what BYOH means to him, so it's entirely valid. BYOH means something different to everyone. It's your job to ask him before joining on a divine.

I get the impression you were trying to ridicule us with a reductio ad absurdum style thingy, but I think this is actually quite sensible advice. A lot of the time, BYOH is based on people not having a healer, so people may react differently if a healer / potential healer does decide to join. It can't hurt to get things straight beforehand!

[Nedime]

But a healer joining a byoh group should do their "Job"



Oh nooooooooo ! now you've said it and I'm forced to ask. What is a healer ? :cool:

After checking wiki I couldn't find any class named "healer".

[Viisari]

byoh means bring your own heals, ie. be able to fill your own hit point bar. That's all it means, most people in byoh groups have no issue with helping if they see you're in trouble and are able to help.

For example a pure fighter with just CSW can byoh pretty far in levels, but if he draws too much aggro they're not going to save him anymore. So such a fighter would fill the criteria for a byoh run but depending on the quest he might have to play carefully so as to not get overwhelmed.

I'm not really sure what's so difficult about this concept, if you can survive without someone healing you all the time join and can fill your own hp bar as necessary then join, if you're not able to do that then don't join.

[Whesper]

I read BYOH as "we're not waiting for a healer... so be 100% prepared to heal yourself".

If, on the other hand, a healer does join, I expect them to do the job... just as I expect the trapper to trap, the melees to melee, etc. Healers who refuse to heal are pikers.

Don't take the spot if you can't do the job.

I also don't think BYOH is rude... not like 'know it'... or stupid... like 'TRs at work'.

Seriously, how big a tool do you need to be before a game becomes work? :D

I have a rhetorical inquiry too: how big of a tool does one need to be before they decide how other people have to play in the group based on their class (split)?
Granted I haven't logging in the game for about a week now, but I don't think they introduced the very limited niche classes named "Trapper" and "Healer". Also, you might want to look up a term 'bait and switch'.



Now more on topic, BYOH means just that, Bring Your Own Healing. I don't care in what way or form; if you can/need to bring along a GM to babysit you- go for it. Everything else is unspecified and undetermined. I don't care what classes join/leave/laugh at the party, you will be responsible for your well being or horrible end. If you die, don't worry, this is an RPG, you can role play a dead person.

[SirValentine]

it would also appear that you disagree with the person you quoted that you state you agree with.


Really? He said, and I quoted, and agree with:



There's the initial expectation that you MUST be capable of healing yourself


Emphasis added by me.



He does not think that it is black and white.


Any discrepancy between him, me, and you, about whether that sentiment is "black & white" or "grey" is more about the use of those color terms than it is about the term "BYOH".

[Chilldude]

I get the impression you were trying to ridicule us with a reductio ad absurdum style thingy, but I think this is actually quite sensible advice. A lot of the time, BYOH is based on people not having a healer, so people may react differently if a healer / potential healer does decide to join. It can't hurt to get things straight beforehand!

So why do you put BYOH in your LFM? Should you just say, "PM me for a list of rules and guidelines you will be required to follow upon joining my party."?

[Ingemar]

"Do your job" translates into "do what I expect you to do". Pretty demanding and pretty controlling.

True, when I first started playing I thought healers had the duty to heal, but as I played I learned that I could do that for myself. I just had to move away from playing pure fighter/barbies. I enjoy the game much more. Byoh groups are usually full of better players, which means things go more smoothly even if my kill count isn't as high :D

[Chilldude]

Any discrepancy between him, me, and you, about whether that sentiment is "black & white" or "grey" is more about the use of those color terms than it is about the term "BYOH".

Oh, I'm well aware that when dude says BYOH he truly means BYOH, but he swears up and down that's not the case. I'd dig up a quote or something, but honestly, I'm too lazy right now. It's in that other thread somewhere.

[Chilldude]

I'm not really sure what's so difficult about this concept, if you can survive without someone healing you all the time join and can fill your own hp bar as necessary then join, if you're not able to do that then don't join.

I never thought it was difficult or unclear until today.

[Kalari]

Oh nooooooooo ! now you've said it and I'm forced to ask. What is a healer ? :cool:

After checking wiki I couldn't find any class named "healer".

lol I was quoting the dude who called divines healers I have no idea what that means either lol.

[Chai]

53 - I checked.


Tasty ham ?

Kargon stole it all. :p

[Menace13]

Turbine should just omit healers from the game, that way no one will be confused by the BYOH phenomenon, again, ever.

[Clatterfist]

So why do you put BYOH in your LFM? Should you just say, "PM me for a list of rules and guidelines you will be required to follow upon joining my party."?

Why? Like I say, I'm easy going about it. If I were to put BYOH in one of my LFMs, it would just be to let people know that I'd like them to do that.

But given that other people may be more strict, or simply have differing expectations, it's not a bad idea for a cleric who wants to join such a group to talk with the team and settle what he'll be doing up front, especially if the cleric would be uncomfortable leaving the matter unresolved. People aren't that harsh with their team-mates!

[shajib]

well the game has been nerfed to the point where you do not need a healer in pretty much everything except raids.

[Chilldude]

Why? Like I say, I'm easy going about it. If I were to put BYOH in one of my LFMs, it would just be to let people know that I'd like them to do that.

But given that other people may be more strict, or simply have differing expectations, it's not a bad idea for a cleric who wants to join such a group to talk with the team and settle what he'll be doing up front, especially if the cleric would be uncomfortable leaving the matter unresolved. People aren't that harsh with their team-mates!

From my point of view, BYOH either means something or it doesn't. Now I think I'm starting to see why so many BYOH people come to the forums complaining, there appears to be no shortage of people who will say a LFM descriptor means whatever they want it to mean no matter how B&W it is.

[~Susie1262]

So why do you put BYOH in your LFM? Should you just say, "PM me for a list of rules and guidelines you will be required to follow upon joining my party."?

That would work nicely! Really! Because anyone who PM'd you, you would already know they took the time to READ THE LFM!!! Anyone who did not PM, would simply be declined. Problem solved.

[Karavek]

What do I need 4-5 pages of stuff for? This is D&D not Legend of Zelda. :p

Lets see....Epic antique great ax. Which I will use against most of the stuff the toon fights.
Triple + maul for undead.
Something to beat oozes and rusties with.
Heal scrolls.
Curse pots.
2 x shroud displace clickys.
Stack of cure pots, just in case jumping underwater and healing up is an option.
---------------------------------
8 slots - Those are the absolutes all my melee toons need.

SO what are you ramming into the other 4+ pages of bags that is absolutely needed?

not saying there is anything wrong with it other then its lazy and being horribly dependant on meta gaming.

You see I treat each adventure as an unknown even if I know it. Why? cus it keeps me from saying the game has become pointless. You see if I just bothered to wiki every dungeon before the first time i got into it sure i could just get lazy. But I stay ready at all times. AT ALL TIMES for every possible thing that cant even actually occur because this is D&D and the mists if ravenloft could come for me at any minute.

Personally I call a melee fighter without the exact optimal weapon for every type of mob being carried at all times a lazy gimp, i call a melee without haste pots a gimp, a call a melee without the **** light pots from mabar for an extra 1d6 light dmg for an hour in such great quantities they can power chug them the rest of the year gimp. WHy? because that is the nature of DDO, there is the best and then there is gimp least that is what ive picked on from the leetists here over the years.

No one weapon is even close to universal top DPS against mobs that can have specialized effects against them for example a DR breaking banisher will always outdo others against outsiders. ADDY smiters will always be top against contructs, etc just because a weapon can be decent doesnt make it good enough, and the choice to be gimp for the sake of more bag space equals lazy.

Likewise i didnt see items like optic nerves etc on the lists. From girdles of heroism to beholder optic nerves I put every unusual clickie on the list of must have at all times if you want to be more then gimp in my eyes. You could solo EE content all day long and if you did it while not carrying a tool you wont even need, if it could be a need anywhere else then your gimp in my book. Having to go to the bank for anything but storing gear for alts or the like makes you gimp in my book.

The only way to treat D&D anything and enjoy it is to not treat anything like you know its coming. when you dont know wahts coming, the only way to be ready is by being ready for everything.

Sure there are meta game BYOHs who only take the least amount of gear so they are ready for major loot farming. But in general its those I meet who like myself keep it all on them at all times so as to not have to slow a party down hitting the bank in between adventures that are the pros and the rest are the gimps.

Ive been in pugs in my years where the warriors lacked the right tool, carrying something they thought was good enough for all foes. well then we hit deleras tomb and they met wraiths while lacking ghost touch. Ive seen guys go at devils with holy silver when they had a banisher because no one ever told them bainsher was better then holy of silver. One has to recall many on the game lack PnP awareness of alot of things, and training them to meta game and bank rather then pack rat and be ready is training them to wipe.

[Clatterfist]

From my point of view, BYOH either means something or it doesn't. Now I think I'm starting to see why so many BYOH people come to the forums complaining, there appears to be no shortage of people who will say a LFM descriptor means whatever they want it to mean no matter how B&W it is.

Like most language it has a meaning, but it also has connotations, associated practices, and culture. It can't mean anything you want to it, but at the same time it isn't explicitly clear on all surrounding matters and fine details. Given that BYOH is often about making do without a healer, it's reasonable to think that there may be differing responses if a potential healer does express an interest in joining.

It shouldn't be a problem given how easy it is to just chat through any issues that might arise, as with anything else related to the composition of the team or expected roles of members.

[~Susie1262]

Why? Like I say, I'm easy going about it. If I were to put BYOH in one of my LFMs, it would just be to let people know that I'd like them to do that.

But given that other people may be more strict, or simply have differing expectations, it's not a bad idea for a cleric who wants to join such a group to talk with the team and settle what he'll be doing up front, especially if the cleric would be uncomfortable leaving the matter unresolved. People aren't that harsh with their team-mates!

This would not work. It wouldn't. Because the first person the cleric spoke to would automatically say they expect the cleric to heal "if needed". The problem lies in the who is defining what "is needed", and where they expect that cleric to be in relation to them and the rest of the party. Most melee, on seeing any divine join a BYOH party, automatically drop all expectation of healing themselves. Even multi-TR'd ones.

[Karavek]

From my point of view, BYOH either means something or it doesn't. Now I think I'm starting to see why so many BYOH people come to the forums complaining, there appears to be no shortage of people who will say a LFM descriptor means whatever they want it to mean no matter how B&W it is.

its because nothing can be black and white. what do you find so hard about getting that in an massive multi player game, your not ever going to reach even a decent consensus on well anything.

Nor do your posts or threads mean much to any of us who do play that way until you swalow your pride, suck it up, go roll a new alt and jump into the BYOH playstyle from lvl 1 up. once you have actually been able to cap a character while playing the way we do, maybe your harping on the way we play will have some actual substance beneath it.

At the moment all your threads and posts about BYOH are nothing more then hot water with no hot cocoa mix in it. you dont know what cocoa is since you only drink hot water, nor can you grasp why we dont care much for plain hot water. We know where your coming from kiddo, its you who is refusing to step up and walk in anothers shoes.

[Chilldude]

At the moment all your threads and posts about BYOH are nothing more then hot water with no hot cocoa mix in it.

This is the only thread I've ever started on BYOH. Even this thread isn't really about BYOH, at least I tried very hard to keep it strictly to what people mean when THEY post BYOH. If people would have followed MY rules for MY thread like they like to demand people follow THEIR rules for THEIR party, then this would be one big long thread with a bunch of people replying B&W or Gray. However, some people like you felt threatened by the thread and were hell bent on dragging it off topic.

[justagame]

I probably lean more towards "grey" than B&W white -- it means don't count on a dedicated healer, although most divines in a BYOH will toss the odd emergency heal where it's convenient. (i.e., they aren't going to chase you down and keep you standing if you choose to run off and get in over your head).

I don't think it's surprising, or necessarily bad, that variations of the definition exist. We've seen different degrees of "Zerg", "all optionals", "Your loot is your loot", you name it. I don't see why BYOH is so special in that regard.

[Chilldude]

I don't think it's surprising, or necessarily bad, that variations of the definition exist. We've seen different degrees of "Zerg", "all optionals", "Your loot is your loot", you name it. I don't see why BYOH is so special in that regard.

What degrees of "all optionals" are there? Some optionals? See, lemme tell ya right now, I'm totally against that. If you post "all optionals" and then only wanna do some optionals, we're gonna have a problem.

Same with "your loot is your loot". I've never seen that in a LFM, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't expect to see shades of gray. My loot is my loot except for that loot?

See, BYOH really isn't any different and everyone knows it. Some people from another thread are trying to prove it's not exclusionary by saying that as long as you bring a stack of pots you'll be completely welcome in BYOH. We all know that's not true.

[Sirgleno]

When I post BYOH (almost always followed by Zerg, IP), I expect players to quite literally bring their own healing. I always bring my own ability to heal when joining such groups. This doesn't mean, to me, a player has to be so good at self healing that they can keep up with the zerg, but it does mean that if we don't get a healing type to join or if they get separated from the fast moving party, they can keep them selves alive between groups of mobs by (at a minimum) drinking pots to get their red bar back up.

Ideally it would mean that players have a stack or two of healing scrolls (and UMD to no fail cast them), but I quite understand that this is usually too much to ask for when leading a pug.

[Ingemar]

I hate using scrolls, I usually end up punching and kicking stuff right after I heal using scrolls. :D

[Clatterfist]

I finally understand where you're coming from, Chilldude! You think it's exclusionary?

I wouldn't mean it that way if I used it, but I can't speak for anyone else. I frown on the exclusionary with a frosty frowning face!

[Orratti]

I honestly don't understand your definitions of B&W and Grey...

Is your OP claiming that B&W means that each player will only heal themselves, and no others? And that Grey means that people will heal each other when they feel like it?

Well even if a leader expects you to heal yourself they can't really force you NOT to heal others can they.

If you see a fvs or cleric put up a byoh lfm what do you think it means? I think it means I better be able to heal myself. It is the only safe way to go.


I finally understand where you're coming from, Chilldude! You think it's exclusionary?

I wouldn't mean it that way if I used it, but I can't speak for anyone else. I frown on the exclusionary with a frosty frowning face!

I don't think you understand where he is coming from. It appears to me that when Chill sees a byoh healing lfm he is expecting his only healer to be himself. Just like the lfm says in b&w.

[SirValentine]

What degrees of "all optionals" are there? Some optionals? See, lemme tell ya right now, I'm totally against that. If you post "all optionals" and then only wanna do some optionals, we're gonna have a problem.


There was a whole thread about it a little while back.

Example, WizKing, "all optionals". Everyone agrees that includes killing Hafez and Hami, but does it include getting Conquest, Vandal, etc.? Conquest is not an Optional Quest Objective in the same sense as killing Hami the Jackal is, but it's something you can optionally do for more XP.

Addendum: I don't think I've ever been in a WizKing run that went for Conquest. Does anyone?

[Phidius]

Well even if a leader expects you to heal yourself they can't really force you NOT to heal others can they.
...

No, but they can label you a BYOHish player if you do.


...
If you see a fvs or cleric put up a byoh lfm what do you think it means? I think it means I better be able to heal myself. It is the only safe way to go.
...

It means I should log onto my FvS or Cleric :D

[Systern]

What degrees of "all optionals" are there? Some optionals? See, lemme tell ya right now, I'm totally against that. If you post "all optionals" and then only wanna do some optionals, we're gonna have a problem.

Same with "your loot is your loot". I've never seen that in a LFM, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't expect to see shades of gray. My loot is my loot except for that loot?

See, BYOH really isn't any different and everyone knows it. Some people from another thread are trying to prove it's not exclusionary by saying that as long as you bring a stack of pots you'll be completely welcome in BYOH. We all know that's not true.

What you believe to be true is not what others know to be true.

to recap Chilldude's months of posting on BYOH topics:

Chilldude: "They're evil, bad, elitist, and exclusionary. They're destroying the community."
BYOHers: "What?"
Chilldude: "The 'every-man-for-himself, I-wouldn't-even-pee-on-you-to-keep-you-from-burning' attitude is a cancer on the community!"
BYOHers: "Uhhh, little extreme there. Reality isn't quite what you imagine."
Chilldude: "Yes it is! because it is what I believe!"
BYOHers: "Our experience defies your beliefs."
Chilldude: "I have no experience to defy my beliefs, therefore my beliefs are correct."
BYOHers: "Actually, that just means you're ignorant, not right. Why don't you try them out?"
Chilldude: "Hello!!! Because they're bad, evil, elitist, and exclusionary! Haven't you been paying attention?!?"
BYOHers: "Okay, so now you're just being willfully ignorant, and a troll."

[SirValentine]

Some people from another thread are trying to prove it's not exclusionary by saying that as long as you bring a stack of pots you'll be completely welcome in BYOH.


So this whole thread is just you trying to turn what we say here about "black and white or shades of gray" into an argument in another thread about the meaning of terms like "exclusionary"?

Everyone already does know what BYOH means: Bring Your Own Healing. It's got nothing to do with "exclusionary" or "shades of gray".



We all know that's not true.


I don't know that it's not true. If they can BYOH via pots, how would it NOT be true?

[eden2760]

What you believe to be true is not what others know to be true.

to recap Chilldude's months of posting on BYOH topics:

Chilldude: "They're evil, bad, elitist, and exclusionary. They're destroying the community."
BYOHers: "What?"
Chilldude: "The 'every-man-for-himself, I-wouldn't-even-pee-on-you-to-keep-you-from-burning' attitude is a cancer on the community!"
BYOHers: "Uhhh, little extreme there. Reality isn't quite what you imagine."
Chilldude: "Yes it is! because it is what I believe!"
BYOHers: "Our experience defies your beliefs."
Chilldude: "I have no experience to defy my beliefs, therefore my beliefs are correct."
BYOHers: "Actually, that just means you're ignorant, not right. Why don't you try them out?"
Chilldude: "Hello!!! Because they're bad, evil, elitist, and exclusionary! Haven't you been paying attention?!?"
BYOHers: "Okay, so now you're just being willfully ignorant, and a troll."

Epic win.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The "shade of grey" part is whether or not the people who join intend to help anyone else or think it will be an "every man for himself" run.

This has little to do with actually BYoHing IMO.


Anyway, far to many BYOH groups realy mean "everyman for himself"

therefore, I do not join them, even though I always BMoH.


I'd rather see "we ain't waiting for a healer".

[Ancient]

If you read the OP, then there should be little doubt. Point at the words that are giving you trouble and I will help you out, I'm like that, I help people.
Great! Please remember... you asked. You last edited your first post at 5:22 p.m. server time. The time of the last post in the first page of the thread is 3:51.


Only one or two people have had the intestinal fortitude to put their money where their mouth is and explicitly say gray.

I would like you to please elaborate on the words "ONE" and "TWO". Before we move to more complicated topics like what intestines have to do with DDO groups or why a simple survey turned into putting your money where your mouth is, I feel it would really help to cover the kindergarten topics of "ONE" and "TWO".

On the first page of the thread, there were THREE (shoot, new concept) posters who indicated they do not post BYOH groups. Therefore their answer to the question of what they mean when they post BYOH groups... is irrelevant. They are welcome to post their answers, but any analysis needs to place these answers in the unlikely-voter category. These posts were brought to you by the letters "Dark Requiem", "Zephyr" and "Alvarego".

The black and white version of BYOH were supported by THREE first page voters: "Mons", "Sheepface" and "Susie".

The Grey/Gray vote had FIVE posters on the first page. To avoid equivocation about "Explicitly saying gray", I will include the snippet of words from the post that lead to this classification:
Ape_Man - "Grey"
WruntJunior - "not black and white"
Taurean430 - "I'm not one of the absolute"
Theolin - It means you may not yell "hJeal me" every 3.5 seconds
Thesnowman - "Shades of gray"

So bringing it back to my confusion with the words "ONE" and "TWO". Please explain:
Why at least three of the first page quotes don't really mean grey.
Why in a thread about clarity, your summary is inaccurate even with only reviewing the first page of responses. My answer of "grey" came latter, so as the thread progressed... your summary of "ONE" and "TWO" continues to be more and more inaccurate.
If you are editing the original post, why do you not correct your use of the words "ONE" and "TWO"?
If you are confused about the concepts of "ONE" and "TWO", is it really fair to complain that you are struggling with more abstract concepts such as BYOH?

So now that I have pointed out the initial words that are giving me trouble, please do help me out.

[~Susie1262]

You know, Chilldude, when I saw the thread, I cringed. I thought "not again". I thought you were trolling. But then I read your post(nothing else to do), and thought you may just be sincere. So I answered. In a thoughtful, sincere manner. Most everyone else has done the same. I think you have received your answer.

There are no firm definitions to what people mean when they post anything. People have to communicate to minimize misunderstandings. If you choose not to ask questions or explain your expectations, then don't be surprised when things are different than you expected.

[Phidius]

...

I'd rather see "we ain't waiting for a healer".

I like "not waiting" myself... not waiting for a "healer", "tank", "DPS", "caster", or whatever role other people feel is essential to the completion of the quest.

[taurean430]

Great! Please remember... you asked. You last edited your first post at 5:22 p.m. server time. The time of the last post in the first page of the thread is 3:51.



I would like you to please elaborate on the words "ONE" and "TWO". Before we move to more complicated topics like what intestines have to do with DDO groups or why a simple survey turned into putting your money where your mouth is, I feel it would really help to cover the kindergarten topics of "ONE" and "TWO".

On the first page of the thread, there were THREE (shoot, new concept) posters who indicated they do not post BYOH groups. Therefore their answer to the question of what they mean when they post BYOH groups... is irrelevant. They are welcome to post their answers, but any analysis needs to place these answers in the unlikely-voter category. These posts were brought to you by the letters "Dark Requiem", "Zephyr" and "Alvarego".

The black and white version of BYOH were supported by THREE first page voters: "Mons", "Sheepface" and "Susie".

The Grey/Gray vote had FIVE posters on the first page. To avoid equivocation about "Explicitly saying gray", I will include the snippet of words from the post that lead to this classification:
Ape_Man - "Grey"
WruntJunior - "not black and white"
Taurean430 - "I'm not one of the absolute"
Theolin - It means you may not yell "hJeal me" every 3.5 seconds
Thesnowman - "Shades of gray"

So bringing it back to my confusion with the words "ONE" and "TWO". Please explain:
Why at least three of the first page quotes don't really mean grey.
Why in a thread about clarity, your summary is inaccurate even with only reviewing the first page of responses. My answer of "grey" came latter, so as the thread progressed... your summary of "ONE" and "TWO" continues to be more and more inaccurate.
If you are editing the original post, why do you not correct your use of the words "ONE" and "TWO"?
If you are confused about the concepts of "ONE" and "TWO", is it really fair to complain that you are struggling with more abstract concepts such as BYOH?

So now that I have pointed out the initial words that are giving me trouble, please do help me out.

Now we are getting somewhere...

https://static.prtst.net/asset-proxy/2e1b7c80231f739b077bee780554df74f7114b45/687474703a2f2f7777772e66616972666178756e6465726772 6f756e642e636f6d2f666f72756d2f66696c652e7068703f34 302c66696c653d33333131352c66696c656e616d653d506f70 636f726e2e676966/http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?40,file=33115,filename=Popcorn.gif

[Orratti]

What you believe to be true is not what others know to be true.

to recap Chilldude's months of posting on BYOH topics:

Chilldude: "They're evil, bad, elitist, and exclusionary. They're destroying the community."
BYOHers: "What?"
Chilldude: "The 'every-man-for-himself, I-wouldn't-even-pee-on-you-to-keep-you-from-burning' attitude is a cancer on the community!"
BYOHers: "Uhhh, little extreme there. Reality isn't quite what you imagine."
Chilldude: "Yes it is! because it is what I believe!"
BYOHers: "Our experience defies your beliefs."
Chilldude: "I have no experience to defy my beliefs, therefore my beliefs are correct."
BYOHers: "Actually, that just means you're ignorant, not right. Why don't you try them out?"
Chilldude: "Hello!!! Because they're bad, evil, elitist, and exclusionary! Haven't you been paying attention?!?"
BYOHers: "Okay, so now you're just being willfully ignorant, and a troll."

Well I suppose he may not like it but still in this thread he seems to be taking byoh as quite literally bring your own healing and that is exactly what it should be taken to mean. Do not expect heals from someone else. You are responsible for your own life. If you heal someone else that is your choice not a responsibility.

Whether it is rotting away at the community or exclusionary has nothing to do with the definition.

And yes carrying a great big stack of pots counts.

[Kraegor]

TLDR - The rest of the posts here.

But I will throw my own opinion in the ring.

Whenever I join a BYOH group, I want to smack the leader and say, why don't you limit this to 5 people in the group on LFM and I'll pop out my uber healing hireling?

I'd rather 5 man with a hireling run an Elite dungeon than run it with 6 melee/caster heavy group where everyone is responsible for healing themselves.

This is what hirelings are for.

Now on the upside, I always love joining groups and healing myself with a cleric. When other people (especially the leader of the group) says why are you not throwing love our way. I just smile and over voice say "Well you said it was BYOH, that means I don't have to heal you".

You'd be suprised how fast that BYOH gets removed once they have a good cleric inside the group.

[Nedime]

BYOHers: "Okay, so now you're just being willfully ignorant, and a troll."

And he self-trolls (I only saw one other person in this forum who is able to do so).

[eden2760]

TLDR - The rest of the posts here.
....
You'd be suprised how fast that BYOH gets removed once they have a good cleric inside the group.

Not *two thumbs* this guy. Even if a divine joins my group I won't remove the BYOH, because that would be pretty hypocritical.

If you expect everyone to be responsible for themselves, then when a divine joins the group you can't automatically assume / require that they play nanny, just because you can't or won't. :)

[Orratti]

TLDR - The rest of the posts here.

But I will throw my own opinion in the ring.

Whenever I join a BYOH group, I want to smack the leader and say, why don't you limit this to 5 people in the group on LFM and I'll pop out my uber healing hireling?

I'd rather 5 man with a hireling run an Elite dungeon than run it with 6 melee/caster heavy group where everyone is responsible for healing themselves.

This is what hirelings are for.

Now on the upside, I always love joining groups and healing myself with a cleric. When other people (especially the leader of the group) says why are you not throwing love our way. I just smile and over voice say "Well you said it was BYOH, that means I don't have to heal you".

You'd be suprised how fast that BYOH gets removed once they have a good cleric inside the group.

All very true. You don't need byoh once a good divine takes over of his own free will.

Hireling healers have enough good ones scattered throughout the game that bringing one along is usually better than doing byoh. Even if the hireling dies you get a bonus 5%. If a player dies you lose 10%.

[eden2760]

All very true. You don't need byoh once a good divine takes over of his own free will.

Hireling healers have enough good ones scattered throughout the game that bringing one along is usually better than doing byoh. Even if the hireling dies you get a bonus 5%. If a player dies you lose 10%.

Very true... but that dips into the realm of asking if BYOH includes hirelings? Again this requires actually sending a tell and asking for more details about what the poster actually means, which I don't think the OP is capable of. :p

[Nedime]

Very true... but that dips into the realm of asking if BYOH includes hirelings? Again this requires actually sending a tell and asking for more details about what the poster actually means, which I don't think the OP is capable of. :p

Lol reminds me of a true story that happened a week ago. I and a guildie were in a Spinner of shadows elite run. He typed byoh ip in the lfm. A fighter joined. He popped a hire without asking anyone. We were too busy fighting hezrous and the spinner to type anything (we're both non native english speakers so we prefer typing). The guy passes the portal then immediately dies, and so does his hire. Then drops group.

Enjoy your new & free -10% !

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

TLDR - The rest of the posts here.

But I will throw my own opinion in the ring.

Whenever I join a BYOH group, I want to smack the leader and say, why don't you limit this to 5 people in the group on LFM and I'll pop out my uber healing hireling?


You'd get booted from my group real fast. 9 times out of 10 I'd rather have the DPS/control/instakills, and preferably from someone who could take care of themselves without wasting a party slot. Hireling AI is notoriously bad, and I don't trust someone wanting to pop a hire in a BYOH group to understand how to handle one and do their thing at the same time.

There are quests when a hireling is the better option, but I consider that the leader's call- particularly if the leader is me.

[Kraegor]

Lol reminds me of a true story that happened a week ago. I and a guildie were in a Spinner of shadows elite run. He typed byoh ip in the lfm. A fighter joined. He popped a hire without asking anyone. We were too busy fighting hezrous and the spinner to type anything (we're both non native english speakers so we prefer typing). The guy passes the portal then immediately dies, and so does his hire. Then drops group.

Enjoy your new & free -10% !

While this is true, I have been amazed at how many 3 person groups I have joined, and popped out my cleric hireling (while I am a fighter, and don't carry a tremendous stack of potions, cuz I don't wanna). And then had people to tell me to put my hireling away.

I am like.. ***? There are is a barbarian, 2 fighters and a sorcerer in this group. There are 2 slots open. Why should I put my hireling away? I want heals. Its not hurting you. He is following me. I can set him to passive. Hell I can put him at the entrance and only call him if I need him for rez or heals.

But yet they do. Maybe they are hoping to get a real cleric in the group? I dunno. But for some reason, some people hate hirelings.

Hell, if I could, I would buy 5 hirelings and run the instance by myself if I could.

Regularly, me and 2 guildmates run instances and have a cleric, fighter and rogue hireling. Just for extra DPS, heals and whatnot. I much prefer playing with 2 friends and 3 NPC's than having someone who is a loudmouth jerk or idiot in the party.

[Phidius]

You'd get booted from my group real fast. 9 times out of 10 I'd rather have the DPS/control/instakills, and preferably from someone who could take care of themselves without wasting a party slot. Hireling AI is notoriously bad, and I don't trust someone wanting to pop a hire in a BYOH group to understand how to handle one and do their thing at the same time.

There are quests when a hireling is the better option, but I consider that the leader's call- particularly if the leader is me.

Yeah, I wish party members summoning a hireling came up in the existing "So-and-so wants to join your group" window.

[eden2760]

I am like.. ***? There are is a barbarian, 2 fighters and a sorcerer in this group. There are 2 slots open. Why should I put my hireling away? I want heals. Its not hurting you. He is following me. I can set him to passive. Hell I can put him at the entrance and only call him if I need him for rez or heals.

(Mostly) very true. If the thing said BYOH, I would think asking about a hireling would be a good idea as, in the end, it's still the leader's group and their ROEs.

With that said, the vast majority of people that I've played with who immeidately pop a hire, have absolutely no clue how to manage it, keep it from running through traps, or being a divine face-tank.

If you can do that, then you're the exception and have the misfortune of being branded by the stereotype of the normal hireling-popper. It sucks, but that's the way it is. In the end, just ask the leader if hirelings are okay before you join.

They often will be, and if not you'll save yourself a lot of needless drama.

[evilgijoe]

In my opinion it means be able to keep yourself on your feet,with a few basics.ie cure pots remove blind, disease ,curse ect.
So i suppose for me byoh is the grey area of at the least be able to do the ddo equivalent of fantasy type first aid on yourself and dont take insane risks.

[Kalari]

I honestly consider chilldude my new forum buddy now specially since he likes taking my words out of context and trying to go "AHA!" at me, Take that Kalari you used the word healer in describing your bard as a back up healing source in raids you are such a hypocrite lol.

Seriously if he needs a direct answer the answer is always going to be 42...er Grey why? because even in this thread we see no one is dead set on what the definition of byoh truly means, and the only thing we can all agree on is that byoh stands for bring your own heals.

It does not mean you will always have to use your own heals if someone wishes to help you out.

It does not mean when a divine joins that you should forget about caring for yourself just in case.

In a lot of cases its expected that you can top yourself off and get your own ailments, curse, blindness, poison etc.

Yelling for heals is probably a no no in a byoh but I am sure some do it anyway.

It really depends on the person putting up the lfm and what role they wish to take on when setting up the group and no two people will be the same on that.

So there you go Chill buddy Grey is your answer I hope this helps and I look forward to you attacking my stances like ya do Mobrien, **** us players who enjoy ddo our own way and not as a botting team player :)

[Thralgaf]

Interesting thread. Glad I read it. I beta'd this game, and played at release for about a year and a half. I recently resubbed-like yesterday to be exact. When this game released, it was a community of DnD fans that well, wanted to group up and play DnD. After reading this thread....wow. But that's the current MMO attitude, I guess. is this whole "BYOH" thing the norm, or a vocal minority. because iof this is what the player base has turned in to..well, maybe I need to unsub.

[DarkForte]

Interesting thread. Glad I read it. I beta'd this game, and played at release for about a year and a half. I recently resubbed-like yesterday to be exact. When this game released, it was a community of DnD fans that well, wanted to group up and play DnD. After reading this thread....wow. But that's the current MMO attitude, I guess. is this whole "BYOH" thing the norm, or a vocal minority. because iof this is what the player base has turned in to..well, maybe I need to unsub.

It's a minority. Most people would rather have an LFM up for 20 minutes waiting on a healer to do tear on hard.

[Nedime]

It's a minority. Most people would rather have an LFM up for 20 minutes waiting on a healer to do tear on hard.

Ha ha ha so very true

[Ingemar]

It's a minority. Most people would rather have an LFM up for 20 minutes waiting on a healer to do tear on hard.

Of course you could always pop a hire to do tear on elite, if you have a decent enough group. You might need the Wisdom for the runes. :D

[FestusHood]

You're making it much too complicated. BYOH is supposed to mean "any EXPECTATIONS" of incoming healing are off the table. Most people will toss you a heal or two if they see you're getting super low, but you're not supposed to expect it.



Statements like this are what make the subject confusing. Don't expect someone to heal you, but don't be surprised if they do. The only way i am not surprised by it is if i am expecting it.

Let's look at the acronym that this term actually comes from. If i bring six beers to a party, should i expect to be able to drink 12? Should i be surprised if someone offers me one of theirs if i run out of mine? Should i bring 24 beers even though i only expect to drink 12, to cover other people who didn't bring enough?

The problem is that people who start BYOH groups don't want the wrong people joining their groups, but their own rules are so full of ambiguities that it's difficult to discern exactly what kind of person they are looking for.

You say you want someone who is capable of taking care of themselves. But if you had to help someone out in any way, whether they are incapped, cc'ed or whatever, they are by definition not taking care of themselves are they?

[Ingemar]

Statements like this are what make the subject confusing. Don't expect someone to heal you, but don't be surprised if they do. The only way i am not surprised by it is if i am expecting it.

Let's look at the acronym that this term actually comes from. If i bring six beers to a party, should i expect to be able to drink 12? Should i be surprised if someone offers me one of theirs if i run out of mine? Should i bring 24 beers even though i only expect to drink 12, to cover other people who didn't bring enough?

The problem is that people who start BYOH groups don't want the wrong people joining their groups, but their own rules are so full of ambiguities that it's difficult to discern exactly what kind of person they are looking for.

You say you want someone who is capable of taking care of themselves. But if you had to help someone out in any way, whether they are incapped, cc'ed or whatever, they are by definition not taking care of themselves are they?

I start byoh groups, but not to avoid bad players. I do it because I have a self healing toon and can start the quest not wanting to sit around doing nothing.

[Kalari]

Interesting thread. Glad I read it. I beta'd this game, and played at release for about a year and a half. I recently resubbed-like yesterday to be exact. When this game released, it was a community of DnD fans that well, wanted to group up and play DnD. After reading this thread....wow. But that's the current MMO attitude, I guess. is this whole "BYOH" thing the norm, or a vocal minority. because iof this is what the player base has turned in to..well, maybe I need to unsub.

Glad to see you returned but to address what you wrote ddo is a huge game you know that I am sure. We are an international game to, for everyone who is into byoh or any other style of play there are plenty who still play ddo in "Traditional roles"

I think you may sense ire coming from some of us and I wont lie it comes from me because my way of play is constantly disrespected. If I join someones lfm I expect to play how that lfm dictates, if I start my own I expect the same respect.

For me even if he did not mean it that way Chilldude is completely against anyone playing a divine that does not sit back and heal only. I have seen posts from him and others that are against any cleric that bother putting up byoh and that its our job to heal others. I have a job and it pays me so that I can play this game. DDO is a hobby one I want to enjoy just like my pen and paper days. So I hope you understand that its not an selfish attitude its about being told that the only way I can enjoy a class I have played in games for almost 20 years now a certain way to be acceptable by the OP and those who think like him that I take offense to. DDO is still one of the best games and has one of the best communities and I am sure you will see and enjoy this.

[Yendor_the_pokermage]

its shades of grey to me,

even when i post a BYOH group and im on zorn doin a divine life. or Xzel is on a divine life. thou typically were zerging killing things so fast its not a problem. we will absolutely throw heals when its necassary also.


mainly when i post BYOH its to scare away the guys who cant or wont heal themselves in any way. and the newish players. thou more then alot of vets we have no problem teaching and helping guys out with build/quest advice and knowledge.


what ****es me off more then a death thats unavoidable is guys goin afk and arnt back by the time were done and have the window. ready to step in and keep farming it.

god forbid someone steps into GoP and goes afk and were waiting for them to get back cause the ice wont break. Xzel is to nice of a guy to really berate or kick them, but i have no problems being a prick. seems to be a good stress relief on a zerg 3-5day TR to let loose a cpl times a life and really reem someone out

[twigzz]

My BYOH LFM- Be able to heal yourself... Would I heal someone in need if they were having probs(tripped/held/whatever)? Sure why not but I don't feel the need to put it in the LFM.


Joining a BYOH LFM- I'm able to keep myself up 90% of the time. Some help is always nice in situations noted above.


BYOH to me= expect nothing from anyone.



Start a BYOH LFM on my FvS? Never. But I will say stay close for heals. My "healer" is a WF FvS with a GS and in Dreadnought. Mass heals FTW! :p


That's my opinion on it. :D

[FestusHood]

I have a rhetorical inquiry too: how big of a tool does one need to be before they decide how other people have to play in the group based on their class (split)?
Granted I haven't logging in the game for about a week now, but I don't think they introduced the very limited niche classes named "Trapper" and "Healer". Also, you might want to look up a term 'bait and switch'.


You're quite right. There also aren't classes called 'melee' or 'caster'. So if a pure wizard joins your group who has decided to leave all of their spell slots empty and only use a greataxe, they're still doing it right. If a barbarian joins and his playstyle is that he ONLY uses umd'd scrolls and wands to attack mobs, he's just fine. After all, there's nothing in the names of those classes that designate any specific function.

[Kalari]

You're quite right. There also aren't classes called 'melee' or 'caster'. So if a pure wizard joins your group who has decided to leave all of their spell slots empty and only use a greataxe, they're still doing it right. If a barbarian joins and his playstyle is that he ONLY uses umd'd scrolls and wands to attack mobs, he's just fine. After all, there's nothing in the names of those classes that designate any specific function.

lol id welcome anyone like that in my groups don't believe me roll one like that up on Sarlona, only rule is if you are old enough to drink please do because I will be drinking.

I also do not get mad when people die though some people get rather up tight about that.

I love drunken microphone users and I love anyone who chooses to enjoy ddo their way so trust me if a wizard wants to play sans casting Id love to see what they can do with that greataxe :)

[SirValentine]

Let's look at the acronym that this term actually comes from.


OK.



If i bring six beers to a party, should i expect to be able to drink 12?


No. You should probably expect to drink 4 or 5, with some margin of error in case the party lasts longer than expected.



Should i be surprised if someone offers me one of theirs if i run out of mine?


If you hang out with nice people, no, you shouldn't be suprised at all. If your thirst needs 7, and you only have 6, well, stuff happens, right? Like maybe your SO dumped you by text as you were on your way to the party or something. But if you know or suspect you are going to want to drink 12, and only bring 3, you are not honestly trying to bring your own, are you?

The only time these are in conflict is if an evil moocher is taking unfair advantage of the nice people.

And when the nice people notice, they become "elitist jerks" and kick out the lying moocher who had no intention of every bringing their own bottle in the first place.

[Ancient]

Now we are getting somewhere...

https://static.prtst.net/asset-proxy/2e1b7c80231f739b077bee780554df74f7114b45/687474703a2f2f7777772e66616972666178756e6465726772 6f756e642e636f6d2f666f72756d2f66696c652e7068703f34 302c66696c653d33333131352c66696c656e616d653d506f70 636f726e2e676966/http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?40,file=33115,filename=Popcorn.gif

Evidently not. Once again numbers have managed to muddy and confuse!

[SirValentine]

There also aren't classes called 'melee' or 'caster'. So if a pure wizard joins your group who has decided to leave all of their spell slots empty and only use a greataxe, they're still doing it right. If a barbarian joins and his playstyle is that he ONLY uses umd'd scrolls and wands to attack mobs, he's just fine. After all, there's nothing in the names of those classes that designate any specific function.


There's a difference between players choosing their specific function and players choosing useless functions.

If you want to complain about some player who isn't doing ANYTHING useful, go for it. But just because they are doing something other that what you expect doesn't automatically mean it's not useful.

[Loriac]

The OP fails to understand that BYOH is made up of (at least) two elements.

i. Basic self-sufficiency, including having the means to remove status effects
ii. Adaptive playstyle to the rest of the group

So, as an example, a fighter with SF pots joins a BYOH group. If it has say all WF arcanes, he adapts his playstyle to draw only the aggro that he can self-heal through. The arcanes pick up more of the weight on the quest in terms of mob hate, and everyone gets a completion efficiently.

The same fighter joins a group with a divine who is using healing auras. By staying in aura during tough fights, he is able to draw more mob hate and do more dps. Everyone gets a completion efficiently.

In a third case, he joins a group where the divine leader put byoh because he's sick of babysitting mana sponges. After careful play for a few minutes, the divine caster becomes willing to throw him heals as he demonstrates that he is a well built toon that draws aggro in the right places and isn't a mana sponge. Everyone gets a completion efficiently.

All three examples are byoh, but they are all different in that the player adapts what he does to get the most out of the team as its comprised.

BYOH is not black and white except to people who are unwilling to change how they do things for efficient completion, and instead continually try to hammer the square peg into the round hole.

[FestusHood]

There's a difference between players choosing their specific function and players choosing useless functions.

If you want to complain about some player who isn't doing ANYTHING useful, go for it. But just because they are doing something other that what you expect doesn't automatically mean it's not useful.

My post was in response to the idea that since there are no healer or trapper classes, apparently it's unacceptable to expect classes capable of doing that to do it. I'm just saying let's take it all the way. The only thing that every class in the game can do is dps. So if someone uses that as an excuse for not doing the other things they can do well, it's just lame in my opinion.

If cure serious potions are all you need to qualify for a byoh group, as some have suggested, then it's hardly necessary to put that in the lfm, since there isn't a toon in the game that can't use them. If a melee character has to rely on those for their only self healing in any quest above level 10 or so, there will be lots of situations where they will be all but useless.

Edit: To more directly respond to your post, i don't care if they do other things than what i expect them to do, as long as they also do what i expect them to do. If i ask for a trapper and an arti or rogue who can't do traps joins the party, because they are dps is that ok? If i ask for a healer (god forbid) and someone joins in that spot, yes, i would expect their main priority to be to fulfill that role.
If they can do other stuff too, i'm certainly not going to have anything to say about it. When i played my cleric i did other things too, but i didn't stop to evaluate the worthiness of the players i was with before tossing them a heal.

If a healer has the right to evaluate the worthiness of a barbarian, does a barbarian have a right to evaluate the worthiness of a healer? I don't like double standards.

[Nedime]

If cure serious potions are all you need to qualify for a byoh group, as some have suggested, then it's hardly necessary to put that in the lfm, since there isn't a toon in the game that can't use them. If a melee character has to rely on those for their only self healing in any quest above level 10 or so, there will be lots of situations where they will be all but useless.

Oh believe me there are tons of persons who enter dungeons without a single pot !

[taurean430]

My post was in response to the idea that since there are no healer or trapper classes, apparently it's unacceptable to expect classes capable of doing that to do it. I'm just saying let's take it all the way. The only thing that every class in the game can do is dps. So if someone uses that as an excuse for not doing the other things they can do well, it's just lame in my opinion.

If cure serious potions are all you need to qualify for a byoh group, as some have suggested, then it's hardly necessary to put that in the lfm, since there isn't a toon in the game that can't use them. If a melee character has to rely on those for their only self healing in any quest above level 10 or so, there will be lots of situations where they will be all but useless.

By what basis, or bar? How is a melee 'all but useless' in content above level 10? I don't have this problem, and fail to understand how this can even be used as an argument of any kind?

[darkrune]

Oh believe me there are tons of persons who enter dungeons without a single pot !

From what I have heard Shades of Grey definitely has something to do with entering a dungeon caught unaware...

all I can say is worth the purchase for any married man to give his wife... led to a few BYOH quests at home !

[FestusHood]

The only time these are in conflict is if an evil moocher is taking unfair advantage of the nice people.

And when the nice people notice, they become "elitist jerks" and kick out the lying moocher who had no intention of every bringing their own bottle in the first place.

What if i'm only 20 years old, and can't legally buy beer, but i bring a big bag of snacks for everybody to munch on?
As in, what if i'm a barbarian who can't for whatever reason heal myself sufficiently to be effective without any outside help, but i'm hell at whacking?

[PsychoBlonde]

So my question is simple, when you post BYOH, is it a black and white issue or is it shades of gray like some have suggested?

I don't post this much any more because I'm not leveling a favored soul or cleric and I haven't found a need to, but for me, it's not that complicated an issue. I'm not a stickler for BYOH--if I HAVE heals and you're IN RANGE, I don't mind using em on you. I'm not going to break off my attack to chase you down and prevent you from dying, though, and if we're doing something like The Pit or Chamber of Raiyum where it's extremely advantageous in terms of time for the party to split up, yeah, I want you to be capable of managing for yourself regardless of whether there's a cleric in the party or not.

So, for me, BYOH has morphed into the more complex "please be able to function without a babysitter". If this means they bring potions, dandy. Hireling? Fine by me. Have to stick close to somebody while you're running? That's cool. Know your limitations and those of the other group members as much as possible. Don't complain that it's somebody else's "job" to watch your red bar so you can go hog-wild. You don't have to be some kind of amazing perfect juggernaut of destruction--the crazy leet players die sometimes when they're zerging XP. It happens. Just do your best to make it a genuine accident instead of something that could have been cured by 2 seconds forethought and preparation.

It's really just a matter of basic social courtesy. If someone offers to drive you to the store so you can pick up some groceries, do you also expect them to push you in the cart, load up everything you want, wait 5 minutes while you debate whether to get Ultra Strong or Ultra Soft toilet paper, and then PAY for your groceries? No. Not if you expect them to ever offer you assistance again. Be courteous. Make things as easy on other people as you can.

[FestusHood]

By what basis, or bar? How is a melee 'all but useless' in content above level 10? I don't have this problem, and fail to understand how this can even be used as an argument of any kind?

I realize you're an exception. From reading your other posts over time i know that you have never taken damage, as you can avoid every trap and every spell, and are always in a position where no melee can hit you. Most of us aren't that good though.

[taurean430]

I realize you're an exception. From reading your other posts over time i know that you have never taken damage, as you can avoid every trap and every spell, and are always in a position where no melee can hit you. Most of us aren't that good though.

Perhaps you could answer my question. I'm genuinely curious as to what your problem is.

[Charononus]

I realize you're an exception. From reading your other posts over time i know that you have never taken damage, as you can avoid every trap and every spell, and are always in a position where no melee can hit you. Most of us aren't that good though.

There are so many ways for melee to be able to self heal that this is laughable, splash bard or rogue for umd, pallies and rangers can right from the start, want to play a pure barb or fighter and self heal? go half elf with a cleric dil. Want to play a horc pure barb or fighter, play slow and careful till you get silver flame potions then when you reach epic levels twist in rejuv. cocoon. There are so many ways to be able to take care of yourself, with that said it is black and white, byoh means you are responsible for your red bar. Someone may help you out if you are in trouble but don't count on it because they may not notice or care. As said in one of the first pages, bad things happen in a quest and the five other party members are dead what happens, if you are a byoh'er you kill the mobs complete the quest and raise the party members to loot.

[PsychoBlonde]

As in, what if i'm a barbarian who can't for whatever reason heal myself sufficiently to be effective without any outside help, but i'm hell at whacking?

It's been my experience while leveling (not at endgame, endgame is different) that the barbarians who are legitimately damage machines have sufficient experience that they still manage to keep themselves alive somehow. Don't ask me how this works, I detest the barbarian class and I only did the one life recently for my completionist, but for the most part I didn't have that much trouble staying alive--I didn't rage much and I NEVER used frenzy or death frenzy at any point. Our only healer in the group was a druid and I didn't have any silver flame potions, and even so at level 18 I was pretty well able to run away from the group and not die. When my health got low I'd yell "I'm starting to live dangerously again!", drink some pots, be cautious about going around corners, and the druid eventually caught up and shot me a heal. Other people playing barbarians iwould join and the instant they got out of range of the druid they'd get killed, it was baffling to me. I had more kills and fewer deaths even though I wasn't pushing even remotely my full damage potential and the only gear I had was laughable junk I'd CRAFTED because I didn't want to make serious gear for a one-time throwaway life. (I was, and this is not a joke, still using my +1 Flaming Greataxe of Lacerating with festival icy on it at level 18--the one with ML 4.)

Yeah, I could have cranked it up and done more damage, but why? The point was to get the quest done not do MAXIMUM DAMAGE, and no matter how good you are, your dps is ZERO when you're dead.

So, having had experience with barbarians who DON'T play like their goal is to kill enemies by crushing them under their corpse and still are extremely successful, I don't have a lot of sympathy for barbs who *do* want to play that way and then complain. Keep yourself mostly alive and we can appreciate your damage much more than we do when we spend half the quest carting your stone around.

[taurean430]

Still waiting for a response.

[Lyria]

Statements like this are what make the subject confusing. Don't expect someone to heal you, but don't be surprised if they do. The only way i am not surprised by it is if i am expecting it.

Let's look at the acronym that this term actually comes from. If i bring six beers to a party, should i expect to be able to drink 12? Should i be surprised if someone offers me one of theirs if i run out of mine? Should i bring 24 beers even though i only expect to drink 12, to cover other people who didn't bring enough?

Not a valid comparison.

Let's say everyone's going hiking. The invite said "bring your own food". Everyone brings their on favorite snacks, cookables, etc. Everything's going swimmingly. One evening, a hungry group of raccoons raids the camp and makes off with some of one person's food. Maybe they weren't careful enough with it, maybe it was just bad luck. But now they're low on food, and are going to be moving a bit slower.

Now, they can finish the hike and make it back out with the remainder, though they'll be pretty hungry. You have two main choices. Either a) Keep all your food to yourself (screw them, it SAID bring your own food, and they didn't take into consideration bad luck!) or b) Share a bit of food with them, making sure they keep up and are able to help out more.

They didn't come into this EXPECTING to be given food. They brought all their own stuff. However, sheer bad luck (or potentially poor planning) caused them to run out before they thought they would. It takes almost nothing to share a bit with them, and helps the whole group out. Do you have to? No. Should you feel guilty if you don't? No. However, if it helps the whole group, eh, why not?


You say you want someone who is capable of taking care of themselves. But if you had to help someone out in any way, whether they are incapped, cc'ed or whatever, they are by definition not taking care of themselves are they?

Bad luck happens. Everyone rolls a 1 on a save sooner or later. Every gets lag spikes now and then.

Hell, by your argument if they die I shouldn't bother to take them to a shrine. They FAILED, after all, and it's not my job to help them in any way.

But that's an insanely navel-gazing stance to take, and is just plain silly. If you don't have to completely out of your way or use up all your own resources to help them, why not? If I'm capable of healing, and I see someone get incapped, I'll try and get them back up. Will I follow them around babysitting? Of course not. But I'm not going to be a complete hineyhelmet and IGNORE them, either.

[Charononus]

It's been my experience while leveling (not at endgame, endgame is different) that the barbarians who are legitimately damage machines have sufficient experience that they still manage to keep themselves alive somehow. Don't ask me how this works, I detest the barbarian class and I only did the one life recently for my completionist, but for the most part I didn't have that much trouble staying alive--I didn't rage much and I NEVER used frenzy or death frenzy at any point. Our only healer in the group was a druid and I didn't have any silver flame potions, and even so at level 18 I was pretty well able to run away from the group and not die. When my health got low I'd yell "I'm starting to live dangerously again!", drink some pots, be cautious about going around corners, and the druid eventually caught up and shot me a heal. Other people playing barbarians iwould join and the instant they got out of range of the druid they'd get killed, it was baffling to me. I had more kills and fewer deaths even though I wasn't pushing even remotely my full damage potential and the only gear I had was laughable junk I'd CRAFTED because I didn't want to make serious gear for a one-time throwaway life. (I was, and this is not a joke, still using my +1 Flaming Greataxe of Lacerating with festival icy on it at level 18--the one with ML 4.)

Yeah, I could have cranked it up and done more damage, but why? The point was to get the quest done not do MAXIMUM DAMAGE, and no matter how good you are, your dps is ZERO when you're dead.

So, having had experience with barbarians who DON'T play like their goal is to kill enemies by crushing them under their corpse and still are extremely successful, I don't have a lot of sympathy for barbs who *do* want to play that way and then complain. Keep yourself mostly alive and we can appreciate your damage much more than we do when we spend half the quest carting your stone around.

This is pretty much it, if you're in a situation on a barb where you can't depend on a lot of healing, don't double frenzy and supreme cleave spam, go slow, hit stunning blow and trip. Rage is fine though yeah you can't umd or use clickies but the extra str and con go a long way.

[DarkForte]

As in, what if i'm a barbarian who can't for whatever reason heal myself sufficiently to be effective without any outside help, but i'm hell at whacking?

My kensei isn't going to heal you, that's for sure. SF pots are your friend.

[FestusHood]

But that's an insanely navel-gazing stance to take, and is just plain silly. If you don't have to completely out of your way or use up all your own resources to help them, why not? If I'm capable of healing, and I see someone get incapped, I'll try and get them back up. Will I follow them around babysitting? Of course not. But I'm not going to be a complete hineyhelmet and IGNORE them, either.

First, so you know where i'm coming from, i don't start or join byoh lfm's. In fact i don't join any lfm that excludes anybody for any reason, regardless of how qualified i am by the standards of the lfm.

The way i understand byoh, what you describe here isn't it. You're running a normal party. I understand to some degree you're trying to weed out the worst of the worst by putting byoh in your lfm, but you're warding off many other people than what you are trying to. The fact that there are in fact people using this term who will NOT heal you under any circumstances is enough to make many people avoid all of them.

On an unrelated note, i'd like to make an effort at this point to detach ip from byoh. There is no inherent relationship.
I start in progress lfm's all the time, i have no intention of excluding anyone. I WILL, in almost every situation have a hireling out, and don't care if the person who joins pops one too, although i appreciate if they ask first. The fact that i'm running a quest ip means the last thing i'm worried about is not having enough party spaces for the people that want to join.

[FestusHood]

My kensei isn't going to heal you, that's for sure. SF pots are your friend.

My barbarian was level 18 when i bought the packs i would need to get the favor. There's no way at this point i'm going back to run necro 1,2, and 3 on normal hard and elite just so i can use silver flame pots for a few weeks before i tr.

[DarkForte]

My barbarian was level 18 when i bought the packs i would need to get the favor. There's no way at this point i'm going back to run necro 1,2, and 3 on normal hard and elite just so i can use silver flame pots for a few weeks before i tr.

OK. Enjoy not healing yourself. Feel free to avoid all my lfms on sarlona while you're at it.

[Charononus]

My barbarian was level 18 when i bought the packs i would need to get the favor. There's no way at this point i'm going back to run necro 1,2, and 3 on normal hard and elite just so i can use silver flame pots for a few weeks before i tr.

There also useful for the tr, you stock up before tr'ing. You could also get a friend that can open to help you so that you only have to run them on elite.

[twigzz]

My barbarian was level 18 when i bought the packs i would need to get the favor. There's no way at this point i'm going back to run necro 1,2, and 3 on normal hard and elite just so i can use silver flame pots for a few weeks before i tr.

SF pots+TR'ing= Cake walk......


SF pots= Easy button. They are a must have. :P

[FestusHood]

Don't ask me how this works, I detest the barbarian class and I only did the one life recently for my completionist, but for the most part I didn't have that much trouble staying alive--I didn't rage much and I NEVER used frenzy or death frenzy at any point.

Yeah, I could have cranked it up and done more damage, but why? The point was to get the quest done not do MAXIMUM DAMAGE, and no matter how good you are, your dps is ZERO when you're dead.

So, having had experience with barbarians who DON'T play like their goal is to kill enemies by crushing them under their corpse and still are extremely successful, I don't have a lot of sympathy for barbs who *do* want to play that way and then complain. Keep yourself mostly alive and we can appreciate your damage much more than we do when we spend half the quest carting your stone around.

It's no wonder you didn't like playing a barbarian. You can do a similar thing with a fleshy archmage. Just drop a disco ball, and then run 300 feet back in the quest and hide behind a corner while the rest of the party kills things. It's amazing how little you die with this playstyle.

[taurean430]

First, so you know where i'm coming from, i don't start or join byoh lfm's. In fact i don't join any lfm that excludes anybody for any reason, regardless of how qualified i am by the standards of the lfm.

The way i understand byoh, what you describe here isn't it. You're running a normal party. I understand to some degree you're trying to weed out the worst of the worst by putting byoh in your lfm, but you're warding off many other people than what you are trying to. The fact that there are in fact people using this term who will NOT heal you under any circumstances is enough to make many people avoid all of them.

On an unrelated note, i'd like to make an effort at this point to detach ip from byoh. There is no inherent relationship.
I start in progress lfm's all the time, i have no intention of excluding anyone. I WILL, in almost every situation have a hireling out, and don't care if the person who joins pops one too, although i appreciate if they ask first. The fact that i'm running a quest ip means the last thing i'm worried about is not having enough party spaces for the people that want to join.

If this is the case, and you do not run byoh groups intentionally - why do you feel qualified to infer things about them?

[FestusHood]

OK. Enjoy not healing yourself. Feel free to avoid all my lfms on sarlona while you're at it.
I have been. She's level 23 now, and it really hasn't been a problem. I don't play on Sarlona. As long as you keep putting byoh or any other qualifiers in your lfm's, you won't have any problem with people avoiding them. Your attitude is a perfect example of why i would never join one, regardless of the capabilities of my toon.

[FestusHood]

If this is the case, and you do not run byoh groups intentionally - why do you feel qualified to infer things about them?

Haven't you seen? There are yards and yards of forum posts full of people babbling on about them.

Anecdotally, a 15 year old girl I play with in my guild on Argonessen was upset that she was booted from a group on her tr'd bard because she died in a trap. I asked her if the group had byoh in the lfm ( didn't really need to ask) and of course it did. Be proud of yourselves!

[SirValentine]

Edit: To more directly respond to your post, i don't care if they do other things than what i expect them to do, as long as they also do what i expect them to do.


LOL. Oh, how generous: as long as everyone builds with a particular class to fit your notions of what their role should be, you will graciously allow them to have a hobby on the side. So nice of you.

Sorry, you don't get to randomly decide what other players have to do because you have preconceptions about you think what their class icon is supposed to do.



If i ask for a trapper and an arti or rogue who can't do traps joins the party, because they are dps is that ok? If i ask for a healer (god forbid) and someone joins in that spot, yes, i would expect their main priority to be to fulfill that role.


Hey, if you are the party leader, and make it clear in your LFM you're only looking for someone to fill a specfic role, no problem.

But trying to tar everyone of some class as somehow having to be forced to fit your idea of what their role should be when you didn't explicitly ask only for that role is...let's just say silly.



If a healer has the right to evaluate the worthiness of a barbarian, does a barbarian have a right to evaluate the worthiness of a healer? I don't like double standards.


Sure, whatever, that's fine. Evaluate away, I don't care.

The issue is not the worthiness of a healer, it's the fact that the toon in question might not be a healer.

[Purgatory]

Anecdotally, a 15 year old girl I play with in my guild on Argonessen


And that matters why?

Oh you think she diserves special treatment for being 15 and a girl?

I seen grown men get booted from groups and throw tantrums...

that much more entertaining then hearing about a 15 year old girl being upset

[taurean430]

Haven't you seen? There are yards and yards of forum posts full of people babbling on about them.

Anecdotally, a 15 year old girl I play with in my guild on Argonessen was upset that she was booted from a group on her tr'd bard because she died in a trap. I asked her if the group had byoh in the lfm ( didn't really need to ask) and of course it did. Be proud of yourselves!

Again, if you do not run or join byoh lfm's, why do you feel qualified to infer things about them?

Short answer: You don't, so you're not.

If someone was booted from a group from dying in a trap as you say, was it because it was a byoh group? Or could it have been any other type of don't die kind of run? Or anything else for that matter. Since neither of us were there, that's hardly a qualifier of any kind.

My uncle's cousin's best friend refused to follow me around addressing my every whim. He must be a communist.

[taurean430]

Slightly related to the subject is my distaste for 'don't die' lfm's. I don't join, or put up runs of that type. Yet I don't enter threads where people are discussing it to be negative.

Being exclusionary is also identifiable in the player that refuses to join or run byoh. Except people who do run that way don't complain regarding them not showing up.

Different playstyles are for different people and differing interests. All playstyles are valid, though not required. You play your way, I play mine. What you don't do is become a self proclaimed expert on why people running differently than you are are terrible people.

[SirValentine]

What if i'm only 20 years old, and can't legally buy beer, but i bring a big bag of snacks for everybody to munch on?


Then you're out of luck, because people go to jail for giving minors alcohol.

And you might be confusing "BYOB" with "pot luck".

And that doesn't really work as an analogy anymore, either.



what if i'm a barbarian who can't for whatever reason heal myself sufficiently to be effective without any outside help, but i'm hell at whacking?


You're not good at whacking things when you're dead. If you can't BYOH, don't join a BYOH group. It's rude, and you'll just be deadweight.

[Charononus]

Anecdotally, a 15 year old girl I play with in my guild on Argonessen was upset that she was booted from a group on her tr'd bard because she died in a trap. I asked her if the group had byoh in the lfm ( didn't really need to ask) and of course it did. Be proud of yourselves!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rLs4Q5nJao8/UQXItQTBt9I/AAAAAAAAAPk/RFwmn9qlk7U/s1600/let-me-introduce-you-to-the-internet-meme.jpg

[DakFrost]

BYOH means bring your own heals. I'm not sure why there is so much confusion about this.

If you join a BYOH group and then expect other people to heal you you are obviously not bringing your own heals.

If someone can help you out because you're in a tight spot (held, knocked down, otherwise unable to heal yourself) that's general curtiousness, but it shouldn't be a constant need.

The best part is, if you don't like BYOH it's completely up to you to join or not.

[bruener]

i guess to me it means be able to take care of yourself and dont count on anyone helping you. But.......I feel that this is about the completion of the quest as a party. I would not leave someone incapped or as a soul stone if I could do something about it. To me thats just a d**khead move. ive joined byoh grps on occasion where the leader laughs at the dead guy, leaves his stone and carries on with out him berating him over voice chat the whole way. that is his prerogative to do so but i just cant bring myself to be that mean. Im usually the one who grabs his stone or heals him or whatever. ive even been given **** for doing so cause it was a "byoh" grp afterall. if you are unwilling to help out a fellow party member than you should just solo. I am in no way saying you should be a nannybot if you dont want to. im not saying that you should carry people thru multiple quests either. give kind advice, helpful tips and whatnot. if they refuse to take said advice or helpful tips then drop him when the quest is over and move on. there is no reason to be mean to people because they dont play like you, have toons as good as yours or the experience that you have. just remember there was a time when you s*cked too :).

Finding healers these days is kinda hard to do. It is a huge waste of time, time that i dont have. this is one reason all my toons are built to take care of themselves and if needed my fellow party members.

and for Gods sake dont whine about the -10% (base xp) you sound like a tool. there is so much xp in this game its ridiculous.

[DarkForte]

I don't play on Sarlona.

amen

[Purgatory]

amen

oh god that means there is a chance he play on Thelanis. pls no pls no

[taurean430]

i guess to me it means be able to take care of yourself and dont count on anyone helping you. But.......I feel that this is about the completion of the quest as a party. I would not leave someone incapped or as a soul stone if I could do something about it. To me thats just a d**khead move. ive joined byoh grps on occasion where the leader laughs at the dead guy, leaves his stone and carries on with out him berating him over voice chat the whole way. that is his prerogative to do so but i just cant bring myself to be that mean. Im usually the one who grabs his stone or heals him or whatever. ive even been given **** for doing so cause it was a "byoh" grp afterall. if you are unwilling to help out a fellow party member than you should just solo. I am in no way saying you should be a nannybot if you dont want to. im not saying that you should carry people thru multiple quests either. give kind advice, helpful tips and whatnot. if they refuse to take said advice or helpful tips then drop him when the quest is over and move on. there is no reason to be mean to people because they dont play like you, have toons as good as yours or the experience that you have. just remember there was a time when you s*cked too :).

Finding healers these days is kinda hard to do. It is a huge waste of time, time that i dont have. this is one reason all my toons are built to take care of themselves and if needed my fellow party members.

and for Gods sake dont whine about the -10% (base xp) you sound like a tool. there is so much xp in this game its ridiculous.

Good advice, all of it. :)

[FestusHood]

There also useful for the tr, you stock up before tr'ing. You could also get a friend that can open to help you so that you only have to run them on elite.

Planning to tr into a paladin, so they won't be that useful.

[narizue]

IMO BYOH means bring your own heals. It means that none of the other party members are obligated or even expected to keep you standing.

That being said, if I can help someone with some healing in a BYOH group I will. But I don't expect others to. If they do, great, if they don't quite frankly too bad.

I was running WW Elite on Thelanis a few days ago and posted a BYOH, and we had a WF Barbie jump into the party. He died pretty quickly, and I carried his stone to the shrine. He rezzed and ran out again dying pretty quickly. I didn't notice his HP bar increase, and I was watching. He died a third time after a FVS jumped into the party, and the FVS apologized to me via tell for him dying.

My response was pretty much this: If you want to heal him, you can, if you don't its not an issue. I posted BYOH and this guy is not even trying.

The moral of this story is that if I see someone in a BYOH group at least trying to heal themselves I am far more likely to help them, then if they don't.

[FestusHood]

LOL. Oh, how generous: as long as everyone builds with a particular class to fit your notions of what their role should be, you will graciously allow them to have a hobby on the side. So nice of you.

Sorry, you don't get to randomly decide what other players have to do because you have preconceptions about you think what their class icon is supposed to do.

Soooo when you post byoh, you don't have any expectations about what characters who join can do? You get to do this, but i don't? It's funny, you think it's unreasonable i would expect a rogue to be able to do traps if i ask for a trapper, but you have the expectaion that anyone hitting your lfm can self heal if that's what you asked for.
Hypocritize much?



Hey, if you are the party leader, and make it clear in your LFM you're only looking for someone to fill a specfic role, no problem.

But trying to tar everyone of some class as somehow having to be forced to fit your idea of what their role should be when you didn't explicitly ask only for that role is...let's just say silly.

That would be silly, that's why i don't do that.

You mentioned in an earlier post that it was ok to look down on toons that had useless abilities. If someone builds a rogue that can't trap, i'd question what 'useful' ability they developed in it's place. Those skill points had to go somewhere. If someone builds a cleric that can't heal ( i suppose it's possible) what useful ability is in it's place? Excluding of course heavily multiclassed buiilds.




Sure, whatever, that's fine. Evaluate away, I don't care

The issue is not the worthiness of a healer, it's the fact that the toon in question might not be a healer.
That was actually just a stab at advocating equal rights, since the one thing that permeates these threads as much as anything is the constant evaluation of whether or not a player is worthy of being healed.

I don't have a problem with characters that aren't capable of healing, even if they could be capable if built to do it. FVS, bards, druids, et al can be built to specialize in such a way that their healing ability is miniscule. Of course this means that they also can't heal themselves, at least without using umd or pots, just like a barb or fighter would.
No, my problem is with people who can but won't do it. As a matter of principal. Because people aren't worthy of it.

Lastly, the op asked whether byoh was a black and white or grey area. I don't know about that, but the general thinking of byohers seems to be very black and white. You're either byoh, or you're a healbot, there is no gray area between them. Is the thinking really that limited?

[Kalari]

omg festushood you cannot be serious really? Your trying to turn it around as byoh are the closed minded ones.

So far I have seen you and many others describe playing a cleric/fvs as a job, one guy even had the funny gall to say that he hates when people call ddo work in an lfm, but expects a cleric to do their Job in game.

So once again I ask why does another players way of having fun get peoples panties in a bunch? For every divine player who uses their spell points in other ways not just healing there are plenty who believe clerics should only get boo boos, sadly a lot of players who feel this way never even bother to level up any divine classes and only go by the few who haven't burnt out of babysitting.

I remember when I played a healbot I hated divine classes back then. Once I started playing with people who knew what they were doing and did not need my blue bar to babysit their red the classes became fun again just like my pen and paper days.

Do I expect everyone in ddo to feel that way? Hell no its too big a game with too many various opinions. What ticks me off though is you dont tell other players how to do their "Jobs" its only divines that are relegated to that ****. Then you have to deal with the straw man of "well you dont expect a melee not to melee or caster not to caster" BS I have never questioned a melee on what they can do joining my groups or even dare question a caster about spell selection. So what gives another player the right to declare that my cleric who I worked very hard on for destructive spell casting should be relegated to one task because of her class function? Seriously this **** ****es me off maybe its the rum Im downing but it really really does.

[FestusHood]

oh god that means there is a chance he play on Thelanis. pls no pls no

Ironically, i do have a rarely played toon on thelanis, but it's a cleric. (designed with healing in mind).

[FestusHood]

omg festushood you cannot be serious really? Your trying to turn it around as byoh are the closed minded ones.

So far I have seen you and many others describe playing a cleric/fvs as a job, one guy even had the funny gall to say that he hates when people call ddo work in an lfm, but expects a cleric to do their Job in game.

So once again I ask why does another players way of having fun get peoples panties in a bunch? For every divine player who uses their spell points in other ways not just healing there are plenty who believe clerics should only get boo boos, sadly a lot of players who feel this way never even bother to level up any divine classes and only go by the few who haven't burnt out of babysitting.

I remember when I played a healbot I hated divine classes back then. Once I started playing with people who knew what they were doing and did not need my blue bar to babysit their red the classes became fun again just like my pen and paper days.

Do I expect everyone in ddo to feel that way? Hell no its too big a game with too many various opinions. What ticks me off though is you dont tell other players how to do their "Jobs" its only divines that are relegated to that ****. Then you have to deal with the straw man of "well you dont expect a melee not to melee or caster not to caster" BS I have never questioned a melee on what they can do joining my groups or even dare question a caster about spell selection. So what gives another player the right to declare that my cleric who I worked very hard on for destructive spell casting should be relegated to one task because of her class function? Seriously this **** ****es me off maybe its the rum Im downing but it really really does.

When did i say it was a job? When did i say anyone has to be a healbot? To borrow from a well know forum poster, you are making strawman arguments.

Yes, indeed you are using extreme black and white terms here. You were a healbot, and then you were byoh. Can you really not imagine someone healing and doing something else at the same time?

If you are running byoh groups, you are indeed expecting melees to be able to do something. You are expecting them to be able to heal themselves. As far as the caster goes, the only option i gave in my example for their spell selection was none. Yes, blank holes in those spell slots. No problem with that though, as long as they brought pots.

Explain to me the thinking that leads to the idea that clerics should not be expected to heal, but barbarians should? I'm sorry that you can't see the hypocrisy in this. Indeed, the 7 foot tall guy should not be expected to retrieve things from the top shelf, but the little guy that needs 3 boxes and a stepladder to reach it should. I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, i really find this kind of thinking baffling. Then there are so many posts about how helpful to each other byohers are.

The thinking seems to be this:

I will only help you if you don't need help
but, if i helped you, that means you needed help, so i can't help you.

Didn't Captain Kirk use a similar saying to blow up the probe Nomad?

[taurean430]

When did i say it was a job? When did i say anyone has to be a healbot? To borrow from a well know forum poster, you are making strawman arguments.

Yes, indeed you are using extreme black and white terms here. You were a healbot, and then you were byoh. Can you really not imagine someone healing and doing something else at the same time?

If you are running byoh groups, you are indeed expecting melees to be able to do something. You are expecting them to be able to heal themselves. As far as the caster goes, the only option i gave in my example for their spell selection was none. Yes, blank holes in those spell slots. No problem with that though, as long as they brought pots.

Explain to me the thinking that leads to the idea that clerics should not be expected to heal, but barbarians should? I'm sorry that you can't see the hypocrisy in this. Indeed, the 7 foot tall guy should not be expected to retrieve things from the top shelf, but the little guy that needs 3 boxes and a stepladder to reach it should. I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, i really find this kind of thinking baffling. Then there are so many posts about how helpful to each other byohers are.

The thinking seems to be this:

I will only help you if you don't need help
but, if i helped you, that means you needed help, so i can't help you.

Didn't Captain Kirk use a similar saying to blow up the probe Nomad?

You have a laughably bad analogy here.

Byoh means exactly that. Bring your own heals. They are not parties where someone gets designated to spam heal you. Get over it.

You miss the context of how many groups are run because you don't run in them. Yet you feel qualified to infer and accuse others who do. Except many who run byoh run other group types as well. This makes them more versatile and ultimately not the hypocritical, selfish, non team oriented players than your posts imply.

[Kalari]

When did i say it was a job? When did i say anyone has to be a healbot? To borrow from a well know forum poster, you are making strawman arguments.

Yes, indeed you are using extreme black and white terms here. You were a healbot, and then you were byoh. Can you really not imagine someone healing and doing something else at the same time?

If you are running byoh groups, you are indeed expecting melees to be able to do something. You are expecting them to be able to heal themselves. As far as the caster goes, the only option i gave in my example for their spell selection was none. Yes, blank holes in those spell slots. No problem with that though, as long as they brought pots.

Explain to me the thinking that leads to the idea that clerics should not be expected to heal, but barbarians should? I'm sorry that you can't see the hypocrisy in this. Indeed, the 7 foot tall guy should not be expected to retrieve things from the top shelf, but the little guy that needs 3 boxes and a stepladder to reach it should. I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, i really find this kind of thinking baffling. Then there are so many posts about how helpful to each other byohers are.

The thinking seems to be this:

I will only help you if you don't need help
but, if i helped you, that means you needed help, so i can't help you.

Didn't Captain Kirk use a similar saying to blow up the probe Nomad?

we;ll let me see since I have played every class in this game including barbarian I come to the boards with a little thing called hands on knowlege which many are missing from this thread. Is a self healing barbarian easy to obtain no, but it can be done I heal my barbarian with pots and play smart, I guess for some it breaks their role play fantasy of only ripping stuff up needing a healer but I if I wanted to could go back to a few of your posts including the one where you went on about a wizard not casting spells and using a greataxe.

Its one thing to say you dont expect others to only do something but tout their main functions, anyone playing ddo has a main function of enjoying the game. We have a great tool that allows us to enjoy the game the way we wish. but some people get their panties in a knicker because not everyone plays ddo the same damned way and its frustrating. I dont play my clerics to do a job, I play them because I love every aspect the class brings. I can say that about every class I have played and currently capping as well. Do I expect others to roll up 24 different characters to do this? once again no but I dont come to threads not knowing what I am talking about either. So far most who are anti byoh have stated a few times "oh I never join them" and assume that only belligerent asses run them many of us said that we put them up with the hopes people can keep themselves up but will toss a heal if needed if even on a healer.

All I see here is too many people thinking their way and knowledge trumps others and a lot of people who are all "know your role" then back peddle when they are called out on it.

[taurean430]

we;ll let me see since I have played every class in this game including barbarian I come to the boards with a little thing called hands on knowlege which many are missing from this thread. Is a self healing barbarian easy to obtain no, but it can be done I heal my barbarian with pots and play smart, I guess for some it breaks their role play fantasy of only ripping stuff up needing a healer but I if I wanted to could go back to a few of your posts including the one where you went on about a wizard not casting spells and using a greataxe.

Its one thing to say you dont expect others to only do something but tout their main functions, anyone playing ddo has a main function of enjoying the game. We have a great tool that allows us to enjoy the game the way we wish. but some people get their panties in a knicker because not everyone plays ddo the same damned way and its frustrating. I dont play my clerics to do a job, I play them because I love every aspect the class brings. I can say that about every class I have played and currently capping as well. Do I expect others to roll up 24 different characters to do this? once again no but I dont come to threads not knowing what I am talking about either. So far most who are anti byoh have stated a few times "oh I never join them" and assume that only belligerent asses run them many of us said that we put them up with the hopes people can keep themselves up but will toss a heal if needed if even on a healer.

All I see here is too many people thinking their way and knowledge trumps others and a lot of people who are all "know your role" then back peddle when they are called out on it.

Yep.

I've run two 28 pt barbs to cap. I run a variety of other melee classes as well. The stance is exaggerated totally. Next will be the 'teamwork' argument. Which will be given in the ignorance that teamwork is absent in byoh playstyle.

[Ancient]

Yep.

I've run two 28 pt barbs to cap. I run a variety of other melee classes as well. The stance is exaggerated totally. Next will be the 'teamwork' argument. Which will be given in the ignorance that teamwork is absent in byoh playstyle.

Yup, then the bold challenge to prove them wrong/answer some question/do something, then they tag out and another troll comes in and starts back at the beginning of the dance. 10 pages later, the original comes back and pretends nothing happened.

[Kalari]

Yep.

I've run two 28 pt barbs to cap. I run a variety of other melee classes as well. The stance is exaggerated totally. Next will be the 'teamwork' argument. Which will be given in the ignorance that teamwork is absent in byoh playstyle.

yep its funny I have never had a bad experience in my byoh groups in quests or outdoors, never had to kick anyone to, even when the random new player joins and doesn't understand what byoh means. I will say that its a lot easier on my patience when every one is in sync but I am honest enough to know we are humans and that isn't going to be the case.

What I don't understand is why its even an issue for players how others play the game. Why does how a person chooses to form their own groups bother others so? If they and I will never group (and trust me I probably would not group with them) who cares how I play my classes? I seriously hate when people fall back on functions, team play and other malarkey when I have a solid team of people who can get their own curses, heal themselves when needed with SF pots and do not rely on me to monitor their health just because I am on my cleric or favored soul. It is a nice change of pace and even nicer when I find new people to group with that play like that to. And yet you don't see me making threads rallying against those who want to play ddo know your role style so I dunno I hope I get into happy drunk mode all this thread is doing is bringing out my mean side.

[taurean430]

Yup, then the bold challenge to prove them wrong/answer some question/do something, then they tag out and another troll comes in and starts back at the beginning of the dance. 10 pages later, the original comes back and pretends nothing happened.

Indeed.

I've never seen such consistent vilification as that which comes with these types of threads. The fun part is when you start asking questions and find out why they can't survive anything without a hireling or spam healer. You start offering suggestions. Then you graduate to being the devil...

[Ancient]

Indeed.

I've never seen such consistent vilification as that which comes with these types of threads. The fun part is when you start asking questions and find out why they can't survive anything without a hireling or spam healer. You start offering suggestions. Then you graduate to being the devil...

Yet I keep checking this thread every 30 minutes or so hoping to find out the meaning of "ONE" and "TWO"... I have such high expectations the answer will be entertaining.

[Qhualor]

Yep.

I've run two 28 pt barbs to cap. I run a variety of other melee classes as well. The stance is exaggerated totally. Next will be the 'teamwork' argument. Which will be given in the ignorance that teamwork is absent in byoh playstyle.

heh ill bring it up

depends on the BYOH group. is it teamwork as in..

split up and get the quest completed faster because we have a mutual goal, so nobody will be around to help/wont help anyways?

stay as a group and heal yourself but if you are in trouble i will help?

the 6th spot is saved for Wyoh?

in my experiences, i see less helping out and more fending for yourself and being left behind if you cant keep up. its rare ill see somebody not get ressed if they die and usually its after quest completion. i do see some healing help from time to time, but not enough to say it happens a lot.

i dont belong in BYOH groups. not because i cant handle taking care of myself, because i can, but because i cant just watch someone die or struggling to stay alive drinking csw pots. i have to help them. ill break out my wand and heal them up while running to catch up with the group. i have even wand whipped and used LOHs in several BYOH groups to help keep people alive instead of fighting. if i dont have the healing capabilities to help that way, ill stand by their side and fight with them. if they die, ill run them to the shrine, even if the quest is almost completed and the shrine is waaaay back thataway. ive been told quite a few times by the party leader, to not help them or keep up when i fell behind to help someone that is in the middle of the leftover mobs that were ran past by everyone else.

because i see a lack of helping is one reason why i usually dont join BYOH groups.

[Kalari]

Qhualor I am sorry for your bad experiences but like people like to tout about pugging in general not all byoh are the same. Know your role, yeah those pugs for me have tended to be the same, don't die definitely. But I can not remember any byoh I have posted or joined where someone was left dying. Many who join byoh unless they just clicked on a random lfm can and do keep themselves topped off. They tend to play smart to. They won't join the lfm in a wilderness zone they have never been in. The few times I had that happen after talking with the player explaining how byoh works in my groups (since mine differ from others who have thunk it?) they not only gain an understanding but then are able to decide if the play style is for them or not.

My real issue with this thread and many of the posters on it is that that term in the lfm should just be enough for you to avoid if you do not like that play style, rallying against it in the forums will not change those who enjoy its mind just like we could never convince you to enjoy the play style if its not for you. Its all about respect and I will type this till my fingers fall off if I have to. Respect others game style and avoid them if they do not mesh with your own its a big enough game to do this.

[OrodelaSol]

since the op wanted to know what "YOU" meant when "YOU" put up lfm saying byoh... i would mean bring your own heals...if your heals are spells, pots, scrolls or healbot if space permits idc...but im pretty laid back... i never post byoh though

[FestusHood]

we;ll let me see since I have played every class in this game including barbarian I come to the boards with a little thing called hands on knowlege which many are missing from this thread. Is a self healing barbarian easy to obtain no, but it can be done I heal my barbarian with pots and play smart, I guess for some it breaks their role play fantasy of only ripping stuff up needing a healer but I if I wanted to could go back to a few of your posts including the one where you went on about a wizard not casting spells and using a greataxe.

Its one thing to say you dont expect others to only do something but tout their main functions, anyone playing ddo has a main function of enjoying the game. We have a great tool that allows us to enjoy the game the way we wish. but some people get their panties in a knicker because not everyone plays ddo the same damned way and its frustrating. I dont play my clerics to do a job, I play them because I love every aspect the class brings. I can say that about every class I have played and currently capping as well. Do I expect others to roll up 24 different characters to do this? once again no but I dont come to threads not knowing what I am talking about either. So far most who are anti byoh have stated a few times "oh I never join them" and assume that only belligerent asses run them many of us said that we put them up with the hopes people can keep themselves up but will toss a heal if needed if even on a healer.

All I see here is too many people thinking their way and knowledge trumps others and a lot of people who are all "know your role" then back peddle when they are called out on it.

Can a barb be built to self heal? Sure, with a lot of effort they can be built to do it badly. A cleric, on the other hand, with no effort at all, can do it great. They can do it so well that they can do it for themself, everyone else in the group, and still do other things too. It's an incredible ability, i don't know why you would not want to use it.


You've just repeated the same thing, and i ask again, where have i said that clerics are doing a job? Again, it's YOU that keep bringing up this idea that casting a heal on someone else makes you a healbot. Are monks that frequently stun enemies stunbots? I have a fighter that likes to trip. I never once thought of him as a tripbot. I expect people who are in a group to do what they can to help each other.

If you have found a group of stronger players to run with, and it makes it more fun for you, well that's generally true for everybody. It's not what i see as a philosphy however. You are still throwing heals, the group just doesn't need it as much. I don't have a problem with you. You're not playing any differently than i would expect you to play.

If a melee toon sees that a wizard is getting mobbed, and is about to die, and watches it happen rather than trying to help them, i have a problem with that.

If someone in the group says they don't think they can go through a trap without dying, and the rogue, who could indeed disable the trap, dances through it and says "tough luck, should have built your toon better" I have a problem with that.

And yes, if a divine, or anyone capable of healing watches someone die to 'teach them a lesson' I have a problem with that.

As to whether or not the people who run byoh lfm's are belligerent a$$es, i'm sure not all of them are. The problem is that there are plenty of comments from people in these threads, and from people i know in game, who have joined them to show that a large enough percentage of them are that it makes a poor general impression. I believe there are politicans that don't lie. They are rarely elected, but i believe they exist. If you live in a city, is there an area where you just don't hang out at night? It doesn't mean everyone there is a criminal, but it only takes one.

[Kalari]

okay first off I think using real world analogies to get a point across about in game issues is about as annoying as anything ever.

It is a job when people tell you to stand back and heal, you obviously read this thread in and out you can tell me no one posted that about divines? I even quoted the dude who said its a healers job, even though there is no Healer class in ddo, I know the term can be used loosely the op of this fine little discussion caught me using it for a bard of mine who guess what back up heals in raids.

thing is what you keep on dancing around is my call to respect other players and avoid them which is what that lfm tool does if you dont like byoh and you see it listed you can choose not to click on it. there needs no long winded discussion on whether its black, white, grey or purple its about different strokes for different folks.

But when you try to push people into justifying their playstyles the anger comes out and people on either sides get defensive. I wont apologies for mine because I know that playing divines I am constantly barraged by players who have never even capped one trying to tell me how to enjoy the class. sometimes I take them into a group with me and show them the true abilities but as I get older and patience has worn out I have decided to just avoid them and these forum threads don't help that either. Too many people swear they know the way to truly play ddo. I still maintain if you are having fun it should not matter what others expect of you especially if you are forming your own groups and making it clear.

it should only be an issue if you join others groups and cannot adhere to what the group wants. if more people would read and avoid stuff like this would be a thing of the past.

[Jeremiah179]

So.... My Ranger 15 Rogue 5 Joins up... do you ask me - what is your UMD!!! Do you have 200 heal scrolls? Wands? Okay - we know you can't heal everyone... but you must heal main dps, that is your job!

No... does not happen.


BYOH means simply, join if you could play with zero healing -- but we are going to take what we get and go...

I am attracted to these groups for two reasons...

I can self heal.

I hate waiting for any specific toon like we are utterly hopeless failures without "x"...


The most fun I have had in a long time... Reclaiming the Rift EE in basically a pug group. We had a paladin...we had two FvS... but we get OWNED at final fighting...second round even...

We stand around all dead for awhile saying "Whoa" we had zero chance... then someone says - if we all rezz at same time maybe we can do this?

For the next 30 minutes we pulled mobs all over the map... diving off the rocks for our lives over and over...ranging... healing each other with scrolls and trading aggro etc. We finished the quest this way, working together. No one EVER told me to just heal... No one EVER suggested I couldn't keep people up...my fault blah blah... and we worked together and did the quest... most fun I have had in a long time. I willingly drank 3-4 potions and used 30-40 scrolls...because these teammates were worth it and winning THIS quest together...was worth it. Contrast to when I am "assigned" healer...rarely does it EVER feel worth it to chug my potions...scrolls I have never cared about but I have never been healbot...so I have plenty of cash.

***Moral of the Story***
BYOH means... appreciate when you get something from someone else. No one owes you anything.

Short answer is though - it should mean to the player. You MIGHT get zero healing, if that sounds bleak...this is the wrong LFM for you.

[FestusHood]

okay first off I think using real world analogies to get a point across about in game issues is about as annoying as anything ever.

It is a job when people tell you to stand back and heal, you obviously read this thread in and out you can tell me no one posted that about divines? I even quoted the dude who said its a healers job, even though there is no Healer class in ddo, I know the term can be used loosely the op of this fine little discussion caught me using it for a bard of mine who guess what back up heals in raids.

thing is what you keep on dancing around is my call to respect other players and avoid them which is what that lfm tool does if you dont like byoh and you see it listed you can choose not to click on it. there needs no long winded discussion on whether its black, white, grey or purple its about different strokes for different folks.

But when you try to push people into justifying their playstyles the anger comes out and people on either sides get defensive. I wont apologies for mine because I know that playing divines I am constantly barraged by players who have never even capped one trying to tell me how to enjoy the class. sometimes I take them into a group with me and show them the true abilities but as I get older and patience has worn out I have decided to just avoid them and these forum threads don't help that either. Too many people swear they know the way to truly play ddo. I still maintain if you are having fun it should not matter what others expect of you especially if you are forming your own groups and making it clear.

it should only be an issue if you join others groups and cannot adhere to what the group wants. if more people would read and avoid stuff like this would be a thing of the past.

Ok let me put this as straightly as i can. If you heal other people, ever, i'm not talking about you.

[Charononus]

Festus, you give stories about the cleric that doesn't heal what so ever and infer that all byoh'ers are _________

I could tell stories about joining a no description pug and having the barb swear at me for not healing him when he's around the corner, does that mean all regular pugs are full of __________.

Or is this the internet where you will run into some good people, some _________ and everything in between?

[taurean430]

heh ill bring it up

depends on the BYOH group. is it teamwork as in..

split up and get the quest completed faster because we have a mutual goal, so nobody will be around to help/wont help anyways?

stay as a group and heal yourself but if you are in trouble i will help?

the 6th spot is saved for Wyoh?

in my experiences, i see less helping out and more fending for yourself and being left behind if you cant keep up. its rare ill see somebody not get ressed if they die and usually its after quest completion. i do see some healing help from time to time, but not enough to say it happens a lot.

i dont belong in BYOH groups. not because i cant handle taking care of myself, because i can, but because i cant just watch someone die or struggling to stay alive drinking csw pots. i have to help them. ill break out my wand and heal them up while running to catch up with the group. i have even wand whipped and used LOHs in several BYOH groups to help keep people alive instead of fighting. if i dont have the healing capabilities to help that way, ill stand by their side and fight with them. if they die, ill run them to the shrine, even if the quest is almost completed and the shrine is waaaay back thataway. ive been told quite a few times by the party leader, to not help them or keep up when i fell behind to help someone that is in the middle of the leftover mobs that were ran past by everyone else.

because i see a lack of helping is one reason why i usually dont join BYOH groups.

You've run with me before. You should know that isn't true of any byoh group I've posted... ever. Though I do have many toons, so I'm not offended. Healing is provided. It's simply a secondary or tertiary function. I like killing things too.

As a party, we kill all the things. We don't run past them.

[Chaos000]

BYOH means that even without the expectations of an external source of direct healing, you should be able to keep yourself from dying for the duration of the quest.

That doesn't necessarily translate to being required to self heal. Just that nobody else is expected to supplement your hit point total either. Basically play as if you're not getting any healing and use tactics to mitigate damage or avoid it altogether.

If you have sufficient hit points, make smart choices in combat, and deal enough damage to kill your target before they have a chance to turn around and smack you... then even without a single iota of healing, you could get through the quest successfully without dying and having hit points to spare.

If the whole group was built up in this manner you would have a very solid base to steamroll through any quest or raid without breaking a sweat.

[Qhualor]

You've run with me before. You should know that isn't true of any byoh group I've posted... ever. Though I do have many toons, so I'm not offended. Healing is provided. It's simply a secondary or tertiary function. I like killing things too.

As a party, we kill all the things. We don't run past them.

yeah, BYOH isnt all doom and gloom. i have actually been in some good ones, but i havent experienced enough of them to convince me to readily click on the lfm. i have to be in the mood for it, depends on the quest and depends who is in the group. zerging is normally associated with BYOH too and i have the same reasons to join those groups. zerging isnt a playstyle i endorse or like to play, but if i join than i know what is expected of me.

[eonfreon]

Mostly my LFMs say in progress (IP), not waiting on a Healer. So there is certainly an inference that you need to take care of yourself as well. And as it goes on I'll probably add BYOH.
However, I'm not the type who just leaves people in the lurch and as I'm a social animal I also would rather the people I'm with not die due to some inactivity of my own.

However, even when I'm on my Cleric (which means I don't bother writing BYOH since I can handle the healing part) I won't heal every single point of damage. If someone wants to be topped up at all times then they better do it themselves. And in the few instances where my SP is starting to get strained, then yeah, it's certainly on the other players to help out with their own healing. I'm not just going to use every wand I have to make sure they're topped off. Melees and others can take some of that burden themselves, it's not only up to me to make sure they are always healed up. They are certainly expected to share a fair amount of their own healing,especially in-between fights.

Remember, my blue bar is not just for casting healing spells. I'm not going to babysit every red bar I see. If someone dies because I'm too busy with something else, like killing Mobs myself, then they should have paid a little better attention of the damage they were taking.

It seldom happens. But it does happen. And I'm not always going to be satisfied sitting back, using all my SP and resources to keep someone alive, if they don't have the sense to help me in the endeavor. Especially since I can use my SP for other things and still complete the quest.

So, even if I post a BYOH it's a shade of grey. Since I post those when I'm not on a healing class I certainly can't heal someone. And I don't require any "healing-capable" class player that joins to be a babysitter for anyone, including myself, even if I'm playing my Barbarian or Fighter. I've learned how to stay alive on those characters. So can anyone if they want to. Of course I'll help any new or inexperienced player. But I'm not going to do everything for them.