Drow hp

[Viconiax]

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a545/Viconiax/ScreenShot00010_zps6dd75295.jpg

Are we still squishy? :)

And yes, only 1 toughness :)

Could have more if I casted tenser and more buffs + some more hp items when taking the pic but forgot :P oh well.

And nope, no shear of fate bug, those are for gimps :)

[Syllph]

Could have more if I casted tenser and more buffs + some more hp items when taking the pic but forgot :P oh well.



I'm curious which other buffs you could have cast? You've got +300 from joy of the Queen, False life spell, Rage, Yugo, Ship buffs, and a handful hidden behind your sheet. You've even got the bonus HP from GH it looks like, judging by the twin golden icons slightly visible behind the sheet.

[Krelar]

[IMG]
Are we still squishy? :)

And yes, only 1 toughness :)

Could have more if I casted tenser and more buffs + some more hp items when taking the pic but forgot :P oh well.

And nope, no shear of fate bug, those are for gimps :)

You didn't answer the most important question!



Did you give the poor guy 500 plat for food? :D

[Viconiax]

Yup, but instead of plat, it's bacon :)

[Viconiax]

I'm curious which other buffs you could have cast? You've got +300 from joy of the Queen, False life spell, Rage, Yugo, Ship buffs, and a handful hidden behind your sheet. You've even got the bonus HP from GH it looks like, judging by the twin golden icons slightly visible behind the sheet.

Only the queen +300 hp :) if I cast tenser and get +6 more con from tenser and then 2 more con from insightful +3 and constitution +8 item plus 2 more con from a +5 con tome (hope I found it sound) and stay in unyieling sentinel, my base hp (that does not count the temporary hp)(without 300 more hp from queen) and also a superior false life item for another 20 hp plus from my large guild slot item for another +45..(unfortunately all of those items beside the +5 con tome which I didn't have yet is in bank when I took the pic :P) would be:

845 + 75 + 25 + 25 +150 + 20 + 45 = 1185 :P not to mention that I could just take another toughness for monk extra martial feat :) and that did not include the temporary hp.

[Syllph]

Only the queen +300 hp :) if I cast tenser and get +6 more con from tenser and then 2 more con from insightful +3 and constitution +8 item plus 2 more con from a +5 con tome (hope I found it sound) and stay in unyieling sentinel, my base hp (that does not count the temporary hp)(without 300 more hp from queen) and also a superior false life item for another 20 hp plus from my large guild slot item for another +45..(unfortunately all of those items beside the +5 con tome which I didn't have yet is in bank when I took the pic :P) would be:

845 + 75 + 25 + 25 +150 + 20 + 45 = 1185 :P not to mention that I could just take another toughness for monk extra martial feat :) and that did not include the temporary hp.

i can see the joy of the queen on cooldown in your hotbars even when you tried to hide it in your buffs ;) But ok you don't have the +300 HP I won't tell. (PS I'm on your server. I know how your HP normally look)

[Viconiax]

And then 1485 if I got the +300 :)

[Bacab]

Do not take this the wrong way.

Drow are often a "noob magnet" race.

New players who do not have 32 point build unlock Drow and make it.

It is not the Drow's inherent weakness with HP (though that does not help matters) that hurts drow.

It is the fact that the new player sees the CON penalty and they do not work hard to "fix" it.
They will lack (assuming first life)...

Best False Life Item
Toughness and Heavy Fort from Minos
Greensteel HP Item
Best CON item
They may even start with a "10" in CON or even lower, due to a lack of knowledge of how the game works.

Drow HP can be overcome obviously.

It is just harder to "mess" up a Dwarf IMHO.

My first toon (2006) was a Dwarf Battle Cleric.
He was a 28 point build
Decent STR (like a 14)
Good Con (like a 16 or 17)
Good WIS (Maybe a 16?)
Dumped everything else maybe a point or two in other stats.

feats...
Toughness
Mental Toughness
Empower Healing
can't remember the last feat...maybe Imp Mental Toughness

Anyway, thematically he was built exactly like my Dwarven Cleric in a PnP campaign. Tough as nails and awesome. He was sturdy due to being a Dwarf and a Cleric (decent HP and saves and spells to protect him).

Well...he hit cap (level 10!) and did a buncha Tempest Spines because that is what we did back then.

Well they released Drow!
OMG look at those stats!

So I rolled a new toon.

A Drow Sorc...
Stats...
dumped STR (don't need STR on a sorc!)
dumped WIS and INT (not needed also!)
Maxed CHR for Spell points and DCs!
Maxed DEX for...AC and Ray Spell to-hit! and of course Reflex!
Dumped CON (because I was just going to AVOID COMBAT and be super mobile!)

Feats...
Spell Focus Enchantment
Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness
Weapon Focus Ranged (thought it would help my Ray spells...)

Yes...at level 10 cap...he had like 60 or 70 HP and sucked...well he only got to level 9 before I hated him.

Thematically...he was a tough as Toilet Paper...he was based off of a buddies PnP Wizard...

In PnP that Drow sorc would work...in DDO...not so much

Anyway...I learned a big lesson.

Never dump CON and neglect HP.


BTW this is not a "Max CON no matter what" thread.

[Viconiax]

Do not take this the wrong way.

Drow are often a "noob magnet" race.

New players who do not have 32 point build unlock Drow and make it.

It is not the Drow's inherent weakness with HP (though that does not help matters) that hurts drow.

It is the fact that the new player sees the CON penalty and they do not work hard to "fix" it.
They will lack (assuming first life)...

Best False Life Item
Toughness and Heavy Fort from Minos
Greensteel HP Item
Best CON item
They may even start with a "10" in CON or even lower, due to a lack of knowledge of how the game works.

Drow HP can be overcome obviously.

It is just harder to "mess" up a Dwarf IMHO.

My first toon (2006) was a Dwarf Battle Cleric.
He was a 28 point build
Decent STR (like a 14)
Good Con (like a 16 or 17)
Good WIS (Maybe a 16?)
Dumped everything else maybe a point or two in other stats.

feats...
Toughness
Mental Toughness
Empower Healing
can't remember the last feat...maybe Imp Mental Toughness

Anyway, thematically he was built exactly like my Dwarven Cleric in a PnP campaign. Tough as nails and awesome. He was sturdy due to being a Dwarf and a Cleric (decent HP and saves and spells to protect him).

Well...he hit cap (level 10!) and did a buncha Tempest Spines because that is what we did back then.

Well they released Drow!
OMG look at those stats!

So I rolled a new toon.

A Drow Sorc...
Stats...
dumped STR (don't need STR on a sorc!)
dumped WIS and INT (not needed also!)
Maxed CHR for Spell points and DCs!
Maxed DEX for...AC and Ray Spell to-hit! and of course Reflex!
Dumped CON (because I was just going to AVOID COMBAT and be super mobile!)

Feats...
Spell Focus Enchantment
Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness
Weapon Focus Ranged (thought it would help my Ray spells...)

Yes...at level 10 cap...he had like 60 or 70 HP and sucked...well he only got to level 9 before I hated him.

Thematically...he was a tough as Toilet Paper...he was based off of a buddies PnP Wizard...

In PnP that Drow sorc would work...in DDO...not so much

Anyway...I learned a big lesson.

Never dump CON and neglect HP.


BTW this is not a "Max CON no matter what" thread.

Yea most dnd & pnp veteran like you and I often make the same mistake when coming to ddo from dnd & pnp lol...but being cautious, always read about the game guide - wiki first before playing it help me a lot. :)

Also, nice post! +1 :)

[Inferno346]

Why do you even bother keeping Stay Good/Frosty on your hotbar? Is there any situation in which you would want these over Prism stance, assuming you aren't using bugs to keep multiple stances active?

Edit: I guess maybe stuff like not killing the djinni in von6? Seems like you could just turn all your stances off for that, though.

[Therigar]

Do not take this the wrong way.

How can I NOT take it the wrong way?

I had a whole diatribe written out. But I'll simplify it.

Drow are for players who can think and who understand strengths and weaknesses. It has nothing to do with whether the player is veteran or new. It has to do with them as a critical thinker.

Those who are able to think make drow succeed. It is as simple as that.

[Syllph]

I don't understand why people hate on Drow so much. 16 con vs 18 con right? ~20 HP?

If people argued the enhancements or the spell resist I could follow, but most arguments I hear seem to be that they are forever gimped in HP. That's just silly.

[Bacab]

How can I NOT take it the wrong way?

I had a whole diatribe written out. But I'll simplify it.

Drow are for players who can think and who understand strengths and weaknesses. It has nothing to do with whether the player is veteran or new. It has to do with them as a critical thinker.

Those who are able to think make drow succeed. It is as simple as that.

Did you read my whole post?

Some quick facts...

Drow is the first "Bonus" you can unlock with favor.
As a brand new player that is not spending money on the game...Drow is the BEST way to have good stats.
DDO is not like PnP DnD
A new player picking a class that drow excels at like Wizard and Sorcerer both have bad HP by default (due to d4 HP).
New Players playing Wizard and Sorcerer will generally use their beginning feats on Metamagics
New players who just unlocked Drow will not have "twink" gear.
New players may not understand HP minimums.

I was just pointing out that back in the day I fell for the...
*My HP is low...I will just neglect it, but stay out of combat.
*Mental Toughness>Toughness since I am staying out of combat
*Bonus DEX = reflex and ray spells (this is true in PnP)

I found out that you cannot really avoid all damage.

BTW critical thinking has nothing to do with this.

Here is some critical thinking that is incorrect though...
*I will not square peg and round hole a drow.
*I accept their low HP...therefore I shall avoid damage by avoiding combat.
*By focusing on reflex and AC and tactics...I can avoid incoming damage

Here is how vet vs noob matters...

*The vet knows what I just said above is untrue...
*The noob thinks that a "mage" can avoid aggro due to most other games that being the case (Final Fantasy...WoW etc etc etc)

Drow can be a fine race choice. I personally do not play drow.

I play humans, Dwarves and Warforged.

Warforged and Dwarves are rarely the "best" choice for most things.

My dwarven battle cleric would be "better" as a human (healing amp and bonus feat and skill point and CHR for bursts).

My WF arty could be better as a Helf (could easily be an Arcane Archer as well as a full arty).

I do think my Human Clonk is optimal (if you think Clonks are optimal...then again a HELF clonk can dilly some goodies in).

Anyway, the OP appreciated my post and did not take offense to it.

The OP has their favorite toon and built it to the gills and it looks awesome.

[Bacab]

I don't understand why people hate on Drow so much. 16 con vs 18 con right? ~20 HP?

If people argued the enhancements or the spell resist I could follow, but most arguments I hear seem to be that they are forever gimped in HP. That's just silly.

100% true

The only thing is...

A lot of new players fall for the idea of just staying out of combat thing.

Also, if its a weakness...I shall not work on it.

AN example...

In FFXI there was a race with a ton of MP and very little HP and had lower STR. There name was Taru.
Tarus made great Mages...but to made poor melees.

There was a race with high VIT (think CON) and high HP and extremely low MP. There race was Galka.
Galka made amazing melees but generally were poor mages.

My fear (because back in 2006 I made this horrible mistake) is that people see the lower CON and the high mental stats of a Drow and think...ok I will be a mage. To attempt to be more than a "back-line" player is a folly and I will die.

It is just an example of how DDO is different from other MMOs.

It is also why I LOVE DDO.

There is no "White Mage" and "Black Mage".

It is also why a lot of people dislike PnP DnD 4e.
4e was a movement toward to "white mage" or "healer" and "Black mage" or "nuker" and "tank" and "striker".

Anyway, this response has become longer than I intended.

[Bacab]

I don't understand why people hate on Drow so much. 16 con vs 18 con right? ~20 HP?

If people argued the enhancements or the spell resist I could follow, but most arguments I hear seem to be that they are forever gimped in HP. That's just silly.

One other thing...and it kinda bothers me, but I understand it.

With the new epic feats...

It is hard to qualify for Epic Toughness without being a WF or Dwarf.

It is hard to qualify for those 21DEX feats without being in a race with bonus dex...unless you are a "DEX" build.

This is cool to me because it gives people a valid reason to roll a Warforged or a Dwarf.

It is also cool because it gives those "gimped DEX toons" something of an advantage. (BTW I do not think DEX builds are gimped)
I also think light weapons should get to apply Weapon Finesse automatically. To include unarmed attacks.

[Therigar]

Did you read my whole post?

Yes.

Some quick facts...

Drow is the first "Bonus" you can unlock with favor.
As a brand new player that is not spending money on the game...Drow is the BEST way to have good stats.
DDO is not like PnP DnD
A new player picking a class that drow excels at like Wizard and Sorcerer both have bad HP by default (due to d4 HP).
New Players playing Wizard and Sorcerer will generally use their beginning feats on Metamagics
New players who just unlocked Drow will not have "twink" gear.
New players may not understand HP minimums.

All of which is irrelevant if a player exercises critical thinking.

I was just pointing out that back in the day I fell for the...
*My HP is low...I will just neglect it, but stay out of combat.
*Mental Toughness>Toughness since I am staying out of combat
*Bonus DEX = reflex and ray spells (this is true in PnP)

So, because you did something stupid you presume that this is the case with others. Yet, you are unable to accept that critical thinking would have overcome this.

I found out that you cannot really avoid all damage.

Welcome to DDO.

BTW critical thinking has nothing to do with this.

It has everything to do with this.

Here is some critical thinking that is incorrect though...
*I will not square peg and round hole a drow.
*I accept their low HP...therefore I shall avoid damage by avoiding combat.
*By focusing on reflex and AC and tactics...I can avoid incoming damage

Just because you think about something it does not mean you've applied critical thinking to the problem. Critical thinking involves being able to correctly identify positives and negatives AND being able to assess the impact of each. In your examples you do neither.

Here is how vet vs noob matters...

*The vet knows what I just said above is untrue...
*The noob thinks that a "mage" can avoid aggro due to most other games that being the case (Final Fantasy...WoW etc etc etc)

Actually, a veteran knows that a "mage" CAN avoid aggro. If you don't know how to achieve that then likely you've not arrived there yet. ;)

Drow can be a fine race choice. I personally do not play drow.

I heard a real live racist make similar comments.

I play humans, Dwarves and Warforged.

Your prejudices continue to show.

Warforged and Dwarves are rarely the "best" choice for most things.

I guess that's why you play humans.

My dwarven battle cleric would be "better" as a human (healing amp and bonus feat and skill point and CHR for bursts).

Better is subjective.

My WF arty could be better as a Helf (could easily be an Arcane Archer as well as a full arty).

That is just stupid.

I do think my Human Clonk is optimal (if you think Clonks are optimal...then again a HELF clonk can dilly some goodies in).

I'm so proud of you. :rolleyes:

Anyway, the OP appreciated my post and did not take offense to it.

I'm not the OP.

The OP has their favorite toon and built it to the gills and it looks awesome.

Well, that's special isn't it.

Replies above.

[Bacab]

Replies above.

You really are grumpy since the game is down huh?

Normally you are a lot more cordial.

My post was targeting a new player. Not you.

You know what you are doing...I know this. I like your write ups about things and you often point out things to others where they are incorrect.

I know what I am doing (referring to this game and its gameplay)

That guy who just reached 400 favor for the first time...
*They may not know what they are doing.
*if they apply knowledge from another game (even PnP DnD) they will be misled.

You are right though.
Most likely that "noob" will never make it to the forums to see this post.

Many times critical thinking is based on prior knowledge.

critical thinking
Definition
crit·i·cal think·ing
NOUN
1.
type of critical analysis: disciplined intellectual criticism that combines research, knowledge of historical context, and balanced judgment

So I could say..."that word you keep saying...I do not think it means what you think it means" At least not in the context that I was referring to.
Maybe we agree to disagree?

So...that Pen and Paper Veteran and other MMO veteran uses their prior knowledge to come to conclusions I listed above. I know I did.

I made a toon that would work in FFXI or PnP DnD (my drow sorc) and it did not work.
I figured it would work because my Dwarven Cleric that worked in PnP DnD did work.

I have to admit...I don't like drow. But I don't think its wrong to play them.
In my DnD group...my buddy (we rotate being DM)...he's an "Elf" man. I am a "Dwarf" man. You can't be both.

In real life...I am more Warforged.
I love the Warforged back story.
You see...I am a war vet. A lot of us feel we are trained to do certain things and feel a certain way...and when we are not needed anymore...we are just cast aside.
I identify with Warforged a lot because of this.
Note...we never run Eberron so Warforged are never an option in our campaigns.

As far as Drow...
I am tired of Drizzt...
Though I like Jarlaxle.

Anyway, don't see why you are attacking me. It is unbecoming of you Therigar.

[Therigar]

You really are grumpy since the game is down huh?

Probably.


critical thinking
Definition
crit·i·cal think·ing
NOUN
1.
type of critical analysis: disciplined intellectual criticism that combines research, knowledge of historical context, and balanced judgment

There is nothing in what you wrote that is not addressed by "research, knowledge of historical context, and balanced judgment."

To take your example, when you built a "mage" with the idea of avoiding aggro what was your plan for that aggro management. I'm willing to bet that you did not really have one, based on your postings, which means that you did not really apply critical thinking to the problem.


Anyway, don't see why you are attacking me.

I'm not attacking YOU -- but I am attacking the concept you are presenting.

We like to believe that we've thought something all the way thru. But, when it comes to the test we invariably find we have not.

This is the problem with your first foray into drow. And it is overcome by critical thinking.

What was your research? What was your insight into historical context? What was your application of balanced judgment?

It was nonexistent the way you've described your experience. You based everything off of D&D without applying anything that you should have learned from DDO. At least, that's how you describe it.

And then, you presume that every other player does the same.

The problem with drow is the prejudice of players towards them and a failure of players to ferret out how best to benefit from the race.

As a near-starter race drow are excellent choices for a number of classes because they are effectively >32 point builds. Research and placing the race into a historical context within DDO would reveal that -- along with the ways to gain maximum benefit from the race.

Far from being a poor choice for new players who are restricted to the free starter races, drow are a good choice when built using critical thinking.

And, I'm sure it means exactly what I think it means. ;)

[Stormraiser]

i can see the joy of the queen on cooldown in your hotbars even when you tried to hide it in your buffs ;) But ok you don't have the +300 HP I won't tell. (PS I'm on your server. I know how your HP normally look)

Hehe. OP, its simple enough, post a SN with the 300 extra HP if the JofQ is not active...

[Alternative]

the most interesting in this picture is the starvin marvin photobomb

also, the tea is a lie

[Sonos]

And then 1485 if I got the +300 :)

Are you saying the Tea cooldown is not actually there and that she really didn't give you hp? Or are you just pulling a leg?

[Bacab]

Stuff)


Yeah...I guess I could summarize my post better...

DDO is not PnP DnD.

DDO is not WoW.

DDO is not FFXI.

DDO is not Guild Wars.

And I love DDO for not being those things. I love DDO for being DDO...ladder bugs and all.

Oh, maybe its my love for DDO is why I try to warn other players...

When I made my 1-hit-wonder Drow Sorc...I got so frustrated that I quit the game for like 2 years.

Though that was at a time when there was just Tempest Spine.

I want to say that VoN was not even out yet...so I was bored with only having TS available maybe.

Oh, Drow are fine. With the level cap raise and EDs...
*-2 CON is not as big of a deal as it used to be
*Who spends 3 and 4 AP for Racial Toughness anymore (I don't anymore)
*Palemaster in Form gets a similar HP jumps as a DoS or SD does in stance (seriously...check it out...its awesome)

I do still think that Drow do initially attract new players as an upgrade over 28 pts builds.

That is not a weakness of Drow...it is the weakness of the new player.

I think we are both making valid points.

@Tolero...get the game back up! You are making Therigar and I argue! We normally agree on stuff...we need our FIX!

[Therigar]

@tolero...get the game back up! You are making therigar and i argue! We normally agree on stuff...we need our fix!

:)

[Viconiax]

Are you saying the Tea cooldown is not actually there and that she really didn't give you hp? Or are you just pulling a leg?

The tea +300 is there, I'm just saying that I could even get more hp :)

[Viconiax]

The point of this thread is that "drow toon is not really "squishy" like people think"

Good toon builder can make good toons from any races

For example: this wizzy of mine have only die 1-2 times in 2-3 years and she only die because of lag (yes lag :P) even when she suppose to have "squishy drow hp and survivability"...and yes, 95% of time she have highest kills in quest :P

Even melee drow are not really squishy, my 670 hp 1st life drow monk (yes all my toons are drow :) ) is also die rarely and yes she out kill a shiradi sorc (I thought they suppose to be "overpowered"...lol).

And again, point of this is any good toon builder can make any good toons no matter what race it is :)

P.S. stop fighting each other :P

[Viconiax]

Also, happy valentine! :)

[Syllph]

Also, happy valentine! :)

Happy V-day!

[Stormraiser]

The tea +300 is there, I'm just saying that I could even get more hp :)

That is what you're saying now...