When did it become OK to...

[thesnoman]

OK - this is just out of curiosity since it happened to me a few days ago and then again last night.

When did it become OK - or more common - to post an LFM with "Know It" in the description and then have the party leader die or stand around at the entrance piking the Quest?

Here's the back-story:
(Rant On)

I usually don't join "know it" LFMs, but I'm leveling a multi-TR and running The Pit on Elite is much faster in a (competent) group than solo. A "Know It" LFM popped up, was almost full, and I joined. The party leader said he was at quest and when everyone arrived he'd open on Elite.

On the way up to the first room, the leader died in the acid trap and I grabbed his stone and said in party chat and via voice that I'd hit the shrine for him before we did the first furnace...no reply.

Went to shrine and waited a few minutes - no response. Tried voice - no response. Tried Chat again - no response. Dropped stone and kept going.

Long story short - party started dropping and it was down to two self-sufficient toons (myself and a Pally) when we got to the breaker room. No evasion = party wipe.

Chalked it up to it just being a "jerk" player looking for free XP and moved on.


Last night - again looking for high XP quests and saw another "know it" LFM for Stormcleave Outpost (different party leader than The Pit) that was nearly full. Party leader started quest and never moved from the quest entrance. Got to the Outpost and I spoke up in party and mentioned that the party leader seemed to be piking at entrance - suggested we quit and re-form. Good news - the party quit and re-formed without the original leader and we finished very quickly.

(Rant Off)

So - my question is:

Is this situation now common practice? Just curious since I usually run most content solo, in guild, or in a static group and I hadn't hit the LFM panel during leveling in quite a while (and may not for a long time now).

Thanks for your replies!

[gphysalis]

There are quite a few people who put "know it" in the LFM, but forget to add "Need Guide"

Generally, the more qualifiers in the LFM, the worse your group is going to be.

[Lyria]

My favorite was one the other night.

It was for the Lords of Dust chain, running on elite. The LFM said "20+ only, TR pref".

The group leader was a first-life level 15 barbarian. :)

[WruntJunior]

There's always the special people who think putting up a restrictive LFM like that means they get carried with no effort on their part (I see it reversed, as well...several people join my "BYOH, Know It" LFMs thinking I'll carry them through their piking and not wind up kicking them). Just like any other LFM qualifier, some people put it in without having any intention of fulfilling it themselves.

[gphysalis]

Imagine an LFM with a qualifier of:
"Gimps only"
That would probably not be posted by a gimp.

[JamnJD]

I usually give people the benefit of the doubt.

There are so many real life things that can pop up and interrupt play. And real life takes priority over gaming.

You never know, the party leader could simply have run upstairs to grab a drink, and found his wife sleeping with another man.

Could happen :)

...J

[HackSlashKill]

My favorite was one the other night.

It was for the Lords of Dust chain, running on elite. The LFM said "20+ only, TR pref".

The group leader was a first-life level 15 barbarian. :)

did you join this group? and if so, did you stay? Because if you stay, then you are being an enabler and allowing for it to happen. See, the leader may think it is no problem because people join and say nothing and stay, so good on the leader if pep will join and do his dirty work for him.

Anyone with some tiny amount of self-respect would say something to leader and say, sorry, not going to carry you.

I mean, why stay in a group that the leader is obviously looking to be caried or others to do it for them.

[Lyria]

The only qualifiers I've ever put on my LFMs have been stuff like "Free cookies*", "Pass wonder pots please", and "BYOHalfling". :)

When someone joins the "free cookies*" group, I tell them the asterix means "while supplies last", and that I ate them all already. :)


did you join this group? and if so, did you stay? Because if you stay, then you are being an enabler and allowing for it to happen. See, the leader may think it is no problem because people join and say nothing and stay, so good on the leader if pep will join and do his dirty work for him.

Anyone with some tiny amount of self-respect would say something to leader and say, sorry, not going to carry you.

I mean, why stay in a group that the leader is obviously looking to be caried or others to do it for them.

Nope, I didn't join it. I saw it in the LFM list and just kind of snickered at it and kept doing what I was doing. Saw it still there about 30m later, still with just that one guy. Reason I know he was first life is cause I passed him standing outside the first quest while I was wandering down to do the In the Flesh chain. :)

[thesnoman]

There are quite a few people who put "know it" in the LFM, but forget to add "Need Guide"


Personally - I'd more likely join a "Need Guide" LFM than a "Know It" LFM at this point - at least I'd know what I was getting into.

[EarlofPain]

more than half of the "know it, byoh, etc." groups are run by someone who has no clue or is just a blatent @$$.

[HAL]

Know it...cause I sure as heck don't. :D

[voodoogroves]

I see moderately frequent LFMs on G-Land that are something like.

"Know it. Need guide."
"Experienced players only; no first timers. Need guide."


No, I don't join them.

[WruntJunior]

I see moderately frequent LFMs on G-Land that are something like.

"Know it. Need guide."
"Experienced players only; no first timers. Need guide."


No, I don't join them.

Those are hilarious.

[J1NG]

It has in my experience become a little more common over on Thelanis.

Players who are multi TR's piking not doing anything. And I'm not even talking about the dual boxer's, they're OK as I know about them and play accordingly, but actual multi TR's just sitting around like they don't know what's going on. Infuriating especially on xp farm quests; they don't help (resulting in increased farm xp times) and often aren't very well made either resulting in needing to watch over them otherwise we lose 10% xp (again, resulting in more time needed when others could be doing other parts in the quest).

Somewhat amusing to watch to be honest, but not when I have an XP pot running.

J1NG

[thesnoman]

Seriously now - If someone needs help completing or puts a "Need Guide" descriptor in the LFM it doesn't bother me. If someone puts "Know It" and even though they clearly don't they at least make an effort or tell you in party chat that they need help I'm kinda OK with that too.

It was the shear lack of effort and blatant piking that caused me so much frustration.

On the lighter side:

Since these two incidents I've put some descriptors in my LFM panels recently:

Shadow crypt - Elite, BB, IP, free XP. Please let me grab window

The Pit - Stand at the entrance and don't move = 40K XP

And my other favs are:

Adult Content don't join if you can't handle it
BYOB - I'm playing drunk you should too.

[My2Cents]

I really hesitate to join a "know it" LFM - seems like a setup to be picked at/blamed.

I do like the idea of a "gimps only" LFM. Maybe I'll find a quest I can basically solo and try it. Or better yet, roll up something with the g.i.m.p. roller and try running it...

[beilschmidt]

I see moderately frequent LFMs on G-Land that are something like.

"Know it. Need guide."
"Experienced players only; no first timers. Need guide."


No, I don't join them.

Do they even exist?

[marybee]

I only play on Orien, but I do see LFM's with "Know It." I don't join those as that seems like they would be a rush and possibly not in my play style. I can't promise not to get directionally challenged in a quest, even though I always intend to go the right way... it's just that sometimes I'm sure the way ahead moves and really it's behind me! ;)

When I play my healer I occasionally have to remind people that if they rush ahead and around corners they won't be healed. Similarly if they stay put and pike then get smooshed, I won't be there to heal them and if that's the party leader, they get the same treatment. Unless there is something legitimate that comes up in real life I think it's rude to pike and whilst I'm happy to give people a chance, I have no time for people who try and take advantage of others. If people need to go afk they should have the curtesy to say so and also not take 20 minutes to eat dinner while everyone else completes the quest for them either. If a person plays with a group of friends then they could get away with this, as one day they can return the favour, but that's not possible in PUG's. I always try and play like I'm with friends even in a pug... it's really more fun that way. :)

[Vanshilar]

"Zerg. Need guide" type LFMs show up quite frequently on Orien.

[voodoogroves]

Do they even exist?

Here's one.

http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/a464/voodoogroves/ScreenShot00046trim_zps490fc693.jpg

[Singular]

Seriously now - If someone needs help completing or puts a "Need Guide" descriptor in the LFM it doesn't bother me. If someone puts "Know It" and even though they clearly don't they at least make an effort or tell you in party chat that they need help I'm kinda OK with that too.

It was the shear lack of effort and blatant piking that caused me so much frustration.
On the lighter side:
Since these two incidents I've put some descriptors in my LFM panels recently:
Shadow crypt - Elite, BB, IP, free XP. Please let me grab window
The Pit - Stand at the entrance and don't move = 40K XP
And my other favs are:
Adult Content don't join if you can't handle it
BYOB - I'm playing drunk you should too.

Those are awesome!

If I see your The Pit one up, I'll join to pike at the entrance. I deeply and utterly hate that quest and was thinking about paying someone 50k-100k plat to let me pike it, but now I'm way over level, with tons of favor, so no real point. Maybe when I TR again... :) (actually, someone had helped me with The Pit 2 or 3 lives ago and didn't want me to do much - he wanted us to run it over and over, but I hate it so terribly just once was too much).

And the BYOB - brilliant! No better time than playing drunk and st___d.

On Thelanis I usually write "Hot girl toons! Come drunk, bring a friend!"

"This ain't your momma's Shroud, boy" and stuff like that.

[nni]

My experience with several "know it" lfm's are that they actually mean to say "know it, because I don't", but the party leader omits the last part.

[t0r012]

Imagine an LFM with a qualifier of:
"Gimps only"
That would probably not be posted by a gimp.

Did that for tempest spine a while back.
It was the first time I didn't have to go back collecting stragglers at any point in the quest, only the designated runner went up to pull ice , nobody stepped on the golem plate till everyone was in the room. Everything went super extra smooth.

I was disappoint.

So now when I run the spine I'm sure to qualify the lfm post with ; know it , BYOH , god-like toons only. Now I get all the fun of tempest spine once again :)

[AzB]

The only qualifiers I've ever put on my LFMs have been stuff like "Free cookies*", "Pass wonder pots please", and "BYOHalfling". :)

When someone joins the "free cookies*" group, I tell them the asterix means "while supplies last", and that I ate them all already. :)





That's just... awesome.

Thanks for the laugh. I'm probably going to steal the BYOHalfling descriptor.

[silence383]

It became ok when he posted and you joined his group. Now you know not to join anything he posts from this point on. Lose/Win. He lost a capable player (You) that he could have had in the future. Win for you because now you know :)

[silence383]

The only qualifiers I've ever put on my LFMs have been stuff like "Free cookies*", "Pass wonder pots please", and "BYOHalfling". :)

When someone joins the "free cookies*" group, I tell them the asterix means "while supplies last", and that I ate them all already. :)



Nope, I didn't join it. I saw it in the LFM list and just kind of snickered at it and kept doing what I was doing. Saw it still there about 30m later, still with just that one guy. Reason I know he was first life is cause I passed him standing outside the first quest while I was wandering down to do the In the Flesh chain. :)

Or asterisk and very very tiny print if your name in r/l is hezbubalala..if they dont have the card to see it..your covered

[xveganrox]

Here's one.

http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/a464/voodoogroves/ScreenShot00046trim_zps490fc693.jpg

Luckily nature will take its course when he tries to run that quest on elite while clueless =D

[Derailment]

Here's one.

http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/a464/voodoogroves/ScreenShot00046trim_zps490fc693.jpg

Well I can imagine someone who knows what to do (don't kill spiders, leap to shrine), but isn't familiar with map yet (which tunnel leads where, or in what tunnels bosses can spawn).
But may be I believe in people too much.

[Forzah]

Here's one.

http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/a464/voodoogroves/ScreenShot00046trim_zps490fc693.jpg

It kinda makes sense... you want someone that knows it to guide you.

[Chai]

"Know it" is often times a front for, "need to be carried through quest".

[Magil]

Imagine an LFM with a qualifier of:
"Gimps only"
That would probably not be posted by a gimp.

I'm going to start doing something like this from now on.

[shajib]

I usually give people the benefit of the doubt.

There are so many real life things that can pop up and interrupt play. And real life takes priority over gaming.

You never know, the party leader could simply have run upstairs to grab a drink, and found his wife sleeping with another man.

Could happen :)

...J

lol nice one

[mobrien316]

I usually find the Pit attracts more pikers than any other quest.

The lazy pikers are the ones who step in and then go watch TV or something for the next 45 minutes, and then claim the game "froze up" on them.

The slightly more amusing pikers are the ones who "accidentally" step off the catwalk and fall into the lava and die, and then try to convince the rest of the party that their "Mario" skills are so bad that they always fall and we might as well leave them in the lava. What's fun to do with those pikers is go down to the bottom to retrieve their stone and bring it to the shrine, and keep doing that every time they "accidentally" fall into the lava. Each time they say, "It's okay - just leave me there" I will respond with "No problem - I'll be there in a few seconds and then I'll run you to the shrine again."

The completely inexplicable pikers are the low level characters who join a Pit run led by one of my high level (sometimes epic level) characters, with an LFM that reads, "Teaching run for anyone who wants to learn the Pit." I have no idea why a level 8 character would join a group like that, being led by a level 23 character, and then just pike at the entrance for the whole quest, learning nothing. But it has happened three different times.

[FestusHood]

I usually find the Pit attracts more pikers than any other quest.

The lazy pikers are the ones who step in and then go watch TV or something for the next 45 minutes, and then claim the game "froze up" on them.

The slightly more amusing pikers are the ones who "accidentally" step off the catwalk and fall into the lava and die, and then try to convince the rest of the party that their "Mario" skills are so bad that they always fall and we might as well leave them in the lava. What's fun to do with those pikers is go down to the bottom to retrieve their stone and bring it to the shrine, and keep doing that every time they "accidentally" fall into the lava. Each time they say, "It's okay - just leave me there" I will respond with "No problem - I'll be there in a few seconds and then I'll run you to the shrine again."

The completely inexplicable pikers are the low level characters who join a Pit run led by one of my high level (sometimes epic level) characters, with an LFM that reads, "Teaching run for anyone who wants to learn the Pit." I have no idea why a level 8 character would join a group like that, being led by a level 23 character, and then just pike at the entrance for the whole quest, learning nothing. But it has happened three different times.

27 favor?

[Nedime]

My favourite :

- know it - because I don't
- Zerg BYOH don't die IP /// All welcome

[Stormraiser]

A decent way to judge the outcome of the quest if to look at the lfm "flags"

Level ranges that don't make sense. Quest on elite is level 7, range is 4-8.
LFM poster being way under level, quest on elite is 14, poster is level 11, range is 13-14
Almost any non raid LFM with the words "tank needed"
LFM having a character, who's level is higher then the LFM range, IE the OP is level 12, the quest ranger is 10-12, but there is a level 13 there. Discount for quests which use a "flagger"

Storm

[arkonas]

haha my experiences have been anyone who writes know it doesnt have a freaking clue how to run it. not one time have i been wrong about it so far. most people if they want to weed people out usually write byoh ip since a lot dont like that.

[Derailment]

LFM having a character, who's level is higher then the LFM range, IE the OP is level 12, the quest ranger is 10-12, but there is a level 13 there.

This one have some legit explanations.

Friend who can open elite, but will not enter quest (doesn't work for quests with complicated entrances)
Inexperienced leader failed to do math on multiclass request.
Leader waited too long and gave up on BB.

And my favorite - someone joined, then realised he's XP capped and silently level-up. Seen that couple of times :O

[Chilldude]

My take on 'know it' is a little different than everyone else's I guess. See, I know that 'know it' comes from WoW. In WoW, dungeons have several bosses and an end boss. Each boss has a certain 'mechanic' to it, such as when they do this, you'd better do that or you're going to die. A dead player is contributing zero, and only one class of healer had a 'battle rez', so in WoW you stayed dead until after the fight. Hence, elitists in WoW had good reason to be exclusionary, they were too lazy to explain the fights and not knowing the fights actually mattered.

When I see 'know it' in DDO, I ask myself, "Know what? What is there to know? There's nothing to know."

The most prevalent strategy in DDO is run in face first, kill stuff, move on. There's nothing to explain. For 99% of quests there's literally nothing to explain, the other 1% the explanation is along the lines of, "Don't kill spiders."

Know it... cracks me up every time.

[Daemoneyes]

OK - this is just out of curiosity since it happened to me a few days ago and then again last night.

When did it become OK - or more common - to post an LFM with "Know It" in the description and then have the party leader die or stand around at the entrance piking the Quest?

Here's the back-story:
(Rant On)

I usually don't join "know it" LFMs, but I'm leveling a multi-TR and running The Pit on Elite is much faster in a (competent) group than solo. A "Know It" LFM popped up, was almost full, and I joined. The party leader said he was at quest and when everyone arrived he'd open on Elite.

On the way up to the first room, the leader died in the acid trap and I grabbed his stone and said in party chat and via voice that I'd hit the shrine for him before we did the first furnace...no reply.

Went to shrine and waited a few minutes - no response. Tried voice - no response. Tried Chat again - no response. Dropped stone and kept going.

Long story short - party started dropping and it was down to two self-sufficient toons (myself and a Pally) when we got to the breaker room. No evasion = party wipe.

Chalked it up to it just being a "jerk" player looking for free XP and moved on.


Last night - again looking for high XP quests and saw another "know it" LFM for Stormcleave Outpost (different party leader than The Pit) that was nearly full. Party leader started quest and never moved from the quest entrance. Got to the Outpost and I spoke up in party and mentioned that the party leader seemed to be piking at entrance - suggested we quit and re-form. Good news - the party quit and re-formed without the original leader and we finished very quickly.

(Rant Off)

So - my question is:

Is this situation now common practice? Just curious since I usually run most content solo, in guild, or in a static group and I hadn't hit the LFM panel during leveling in quite a while (and may not for a long time now).

Thanks for your replies!

When?
at 2:14 am Eastern Time on August 29th, 1997

[Lyria]

The slightly more amusing pikers are the ones who "accidentally" step off the catwalk and fall into the lava and die, and then try to convince the rest of the party that their "Mario" skills are so bad that they always fall and we might as well leave them in the lava. What's fun to do with those pikers is go down to the bottom to retrieve their stone and bring it to the shrine, and keep doing that every time they "accidentally" fall into the lava. Each time they say, "It's okay - just leave me there" I will respond with "No problem - I'll be there in a few seconds and then I'll run you to the shrine again."

The sad thing is, my Mario skills ARE that bad, usually. :) My old group used to tease me constantly about it.

Lyria has died.
(Group) Lyria: *&%^(@%#@ lava!
(Group) Everyone: Lol, you fell again, huh?
(Group) Lyria: SHUT UP! >.<

For some reason jumping lags my computer when nothing else does. I can have 6 casters throwing aoe spells constantly and a dozen mobs running in circles attacking and get zero lag, but the moment I tap the jump button twice to try and hop up a wall, everything lags out. :/

Stupid Flanders...

[squishwizzy]

The only thing I can say is that the proliforation (sp:?) of "know it" LFM's might have something to do with "need guide" LFMs having a certain amount of toxicity. Everytime I see one of them in the LFM panel, they are never filled, and usually only have one player in them (the party leader).

So it seems obvious: you want something to fill, place "know it" in the comment line. Those seem to actually attract people.

My favorite piking move was a guy who sat his toon in front of a shrine during the VON raid, as if he were shrining.

The only problem was, he was in front of the ressurection shrine, not the rest shrine. Maybe it was a "tell" or a "signature," or maybe he was just an idiot. I don't know. But it was kinda funny (for approximately 1.52 seconds).

[Thayion516]

Here's one.

http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/a464/voodoogroves/ScreenShot00046trim_zps490fc693.jpg

Why you got to call me out like that huh? You cut me deep man.

But really, I start most all my own LFM/PUGs. And i post alot of them. I want to run with people, this is a MMO after all.

Most of my LFMs look like this.

Elite Streak XXXX. Fast. Any Welcome. (trapper preferred) <-- IF we need something specific.

It seems nice and informative. the "Fast" lets peeps know whats up on the pace. I like a good pace and they can decide if they wanna try and keep up.

[WruntJunior]

Why you got to call me out like that huh? You cut me deep man.

But really, I start most all my own LFM/PUGs. And i post alot of them. I want to run with people, this is a MMO after all.

Most of my LFMs look like this.

Elite Streak XXXX. Fast. Any Welcome. (trapper preferred) <-- IF we need something specific.

It seems nice and informative. the "Fast" lets peeps know whats up on the pace. I like a good pace and they can decide if they wanna try and keep up.

May have to start using "Fast" myself...seems "Know It" has a large negative association with "Need Guide" now. :P

[Loromir]

OK - this is just out of curiosity since it happened to me a few days ago and then again last night.

When did it become OK - or more common - to post an LFM with "Know It" in the description and then have the party leader die or stand around at the entrance piking the Quest?

Here's the back-story:
(Rant On)

I usually don't join "know it" LFMs, but I'm leveling a multi-TR and running The Pit on Elite is much faster in a (competent) group than solo. A "Know It" LFM popped up, was almost full, and I joined. The party leader said he was at quest and when everyone arrived he'd open on Elite.

On the way up to the first room, the leader died in the acid trap and I grabbed his stone and said in party chat and via voice that I'd hit the shrine for him before we did the first furnace...no reply.

Went to shrine and waited a few minutes - no response. Tried voice - no response. Tried Chat again - no response. Dropped stone and kept going.

Long story short - party started dropping and it was down to two self-sufficient toons (myself and a Pally) when we got to the breaker room. No evasion = party wipe.

Chalked it up to it just being a "jerk" player looking for free XP and moved on.


Last night - again looking for high XP quests and saw another "know it" LFM for Stormcleave Outpost (different party leader than The Pit) that was nearly full. Party leader started quest and never moved from the quest entrance. Got to the Outpost and I spoke up in party and mentioned that the party leader seemed to be piking at entrance - suggested we quit and re-form. Good news - the party quit and re-formed without the original leader and we finished very quickly.

(Rant Off)

So - my question is:

Is this situation now common practice? Just curious since I usually run most content solo, in guild, or in a static group and I hadn't hit the LFM panel during leveling in quite a while (and may not for a long time now).

Thanks for your replies!


Storm Cleave LFM might have been same guy just on different toon.

[Alternative]

"know it" lfms you should usually read as "know it because I don't"

you also don't need evasion for the pit breaker room, you just have to... know it! :)

[eden2760]

I put up similar LFMs (BYOH, know it, etc.) because I tend to solo or duo pretty much everything with a few people. Obviously soloing can get boring sometimes... so it's good to have someone to socialize with/break up the monotony...

... but not at the cost of Red DA, -10% xp penalties, quest failures, or the expectation that there is going to be any significant "training" involved.

My philosophy is that I can do virtually all non-raids alone at any difficulty, but like the occasional socializing. I'm allowing people to come along, but not out of necessity. More out of desire to not be as bored :p

I also know there are the aforementioned people who are trying to get a free ride, or think a bit higher of themselves than their skill level is in reality.

So at the risk of sounding like an elitist jerk (and if I do... okay... cool :p), the solution is simple:

Don't like "elitist jerks"? Don't join the lfm.
Aren't sure if you meet the qualifications, or if the poster meets his/her own qualifications? Send a tell, you'll more than likely get an answer.
Don't bother reading anything, but insist on clicking like every lfm like a walrus with cerebral palsy? Go play whack-a-kobold or something.

TL/DR: Some of these lfms are legit, some are not. Simple solutions: Don't join. Find out if the poster meets his own quals/if you're what he had in mind. Crusade to stop the tyranny of elitism!

[wildbynature]

It seems like inexperienced players are just trying to get their party to fill. I used to put vets only on my Lfms, and people with level 4 vet status would join. After an easy completion, they would put up their own vet only lfm without knowing what it meant. I've seen the same for BYOH, TRs, and now this. I can't really blame the people posting up these Lfms, though.

If they posted up for a normal running with the devils and wrote, "my four friends and I are too gimpy to pull this off by ourselves and we're looking for a vet with godlike power to come in, get us an easy completion, and make us look good in the process," I'd avoid them like the plague.

On a similar note, I've noticed that few people notice what I write in the comments section of my LFMs anyway. Recent posts have been, "I'm a gimp. Only one gimp per party, please." and "Must be jelly cause jam don't shake". I figure I'd join a group with those comments.

[mobrien316]

27 favor?

That's probably not it, just because the "learning" runs at done on Normal.

Plus, I would think that most players would prefer to run that quest the first time for the BB and get their 35,000+ XP from it.

[Nedime]

If they posted up for a normal running with the devils and wrote, "my four friends and I are too gimpy to pull this off by ourselves and we're looking for a vet with godlike power to come in, get us an easy completion, and make us look good in the process," I'd avoid them like the plague.



Hum ... out of curiosity I think I could join a pug like this :p

[WruntJunior]

Doesn't surprise me in the least that you're a 'know it' kinda guy.

Although, I do love when people try to explain how their rude and needlessly exclusionary LFM titles aren't rude and needlessly exclusionary. Especially when the LFM notation is exceedingly clear about its intention. There's this one guy on the forums who insists that BYOH doesn't mean "Bring Your Own Heals", but merely, "I'm definitely going to heal you most of the time, but try to heal yourself if I'm busy."

Now we are expected to believe that 'know it' really means, " it simply means something along the lines of "not a teaching run, probably fast-paced", but reduced to two words"

OK, so you're saying that it'd be perfectly acceptable to join a 'know it' group even if you didn't know it, just so long as you understand that it isn't a teaching run and it'll probably be fast paced?

Yeah... that doesn't really mean what you say it means.

How are those any different really from what it literally says? It's just an expanded explanation (for which, btw, the comment section doesn't have room).

My explanation of "Know It" still requires you to know it (or be able to fake it), just as the other poster of whom you refer actually expects people to bring their own heals. Yes it's exclusionary and can be called elitist...but that's kinda the point...they're typically xp farm groups, which aren't for everyone.

[mobrien316]

Doesn't surprise me in the least that you're a 'know it' kinda guy.

Although, I do love when people try to explain how their rude and needlessly exclusionary LFM titles aren't rude and needlessly exclusionary. Especially when the LFM notation is exceedingly clear about its intention. There's this one guy on the forums who insists that BYOH doesn't mean "Bring Your Own Heals", but merely, "I'm definitely going to heal you most of the time, but try to heal yourself if I'm busy."

Now we are expected to believe that 'know it' really means, " it simply means something along the lines of "not a teaching run, probably fast-paced", but reduced to two words"

OK, so you're saying that it'd be perfectly acceptable to join a 'know it' group even if you didn't know it, just so long as you understand that it isn't a teaching run and it'll probably be fast paced?

Yeah... that doesn't really mean what you say it means.

Wow, you really are obsessed, aren't you?

When my cleric posts BYOH groups, he still heals the group when necessary, but he would like the people who join to be able to heal themselves to some degree, including poison, curses, etc... Most players prefer grouping with people who are not 100% dependent on the healer for every single hit point. Apparently you are not one of them. It must be a blast for a cleric to have you in his group.

But feel free to keep refusing to comprehend in order to fuel your continual anti-BYOH rants, if that's what makes you happy.

[HackSlashKill]

Doesn't surprise me in the least that you're a 'know it' kinda guy.

Although, I do love when people try to explain how their rude and needlessly exclusionary LFM titles aren't rude and needlessly exclusionary. Especially when the LFM notation is exceedingly clear about its intention. There's this one guy on the forums who insists that BYOH doesn't mean "Bring Your Own Heals", but merely, "I'm definitely going to heal you most of the time, but try to heal yourself if I'm busy."

Now we are expected to believe that 'know it' really means, " it simply means something along the lines of "not a teaching run, probably fast-paced", but reduced to two words"

OK, so you're saying that it'd be perfectly acceptable to join a 'know it' group even if you didn't know it, just so long as you understand that it isn't a teaching run and it'll probably be fast paced?

Yeah... that doesn't really mean what you say it means.

So what if Wrunt is a 'know it' kinda guy. To each their own. Don't like the lfms, don't join it. I would rather have Wrunt join my 'know it' lfm rather then another person who joins and immeditaely asks... 'where's the quest'

I don't know why there are all these questionable things as to what something means or interpretations

lfm... 'know it' - how hard is it to figure out this one, it doesn't mean join and pike, doesn't mean it is a learning session, doesn't mean I am going to handhold and carry you through the quest.... KNOW IT means KNOW IT. wow, some people just can't get over the english language

lfm... BYOH - bring your own heals, means don't rely on anyone to heal you, means brings pots/wands/scrolls (not hirelings),means dont get halfway through the quest, have no health and then say...'I don't have any healing'

[dlsidhe]

I had a lovely person invite me to Pit once and let me and three more lowbies stand at the entrance while he and a friend duo'd the dungeon. Easiest XP ever, I hate that quest.

But, since we're on amusing LFMs now...

First Shroud I ever joined, the LFM was "No Shroud LFMs? Really? REALLY?"

Some people joined, and then dropped when another Shroud LFM started: "Hard Shroud; Know it; Serious Players Only"

The group leader for the one I was in, the Host bless him, changed his LFM to "THIS IS A SERIOUS SHROUD GROUP!" and began greeting everyone who joined by asking them if they were SERIOUS, because we WEREN'T PLAYING A GAME. This was a Serious Shroud Group.

We took a while to fill, ran, completed, lots of deaths, and even more laughs. There were about 8 divines in the group, and we DP'd Harry to death. Had tons of fun, because we were all SERIOUS. Someone taught me the Lights Out puzzle. I pulled an LDS. It made Shroud into one of my favorite quests, because I can't play it without thinking of the battle cry of "THIS IS SERIOUS!"

[Vint]

Although, I do love when people try to explain how their rude and needlessly exclusionary LFM titles aren't rude and needlessly exclusionary.

Wrunt is one the nicest guys on the server to get along with. He is just not a fan of incompetence.

My take is, he is being up front. Call me rude, but at least you know what you are getting into when you join my group. Also, when I have an LFM up it will 99% of the time have an IP, and will be IP.

You should be yelling just much as the incompetent people joining LFM's and not just the PL's.

[Kennyburns]

Imagine an LFM with a qualifier of:
"Gimps only"
That would probably not be posted by a gimp.
^
l
Everyone knows that all the good players post this :)
And the non good players post Know It, Byoh, I'll Solo It(Afk)

[WruntJunior]

Wrunt is one the nicest guys on the server to get along with. He is just not a fan of incompetence.

My take is, he is being up front. Call me rude, but at least you know what you are getting into when you join my group. Also, when I have an LFM up it will 99% of the time have an IP, and will be IP.

You should be yelling just much as the incompetent people joining LFM's and not just the PL's.

Aww, thanks. :P

[jillie]

I post BYOH most of the time. I'm not waiting for a divine caster to come cover squishy. I post this on LFMs that I have up with my FvS or Cleric, cuz i'm not watching red bars through the quests.

It doesn't mean I won't heal you (assuming my toon has the capability to do so) or that I'll not expect a divine member of the party to throw a heal if someone's in trouble, it just means that you need to have some sort of healing for yourself.

I really don't think it's too much to expect that a toon (past say 4th lvl) has some cure serious pots. Granted, those don't work well past maybe lvl 12 or 14 - but if there's not a divine in the party ...

So I see it as descriptive. It warns people who depend on divine healing that there might not be any; that if they can't provide some healing on their own, they might be in the wrong group.

Know what? About one in four groups still gets someone who assumes there'll be someone in group to heal them :(

[Chilldude]

So what if Wrunt is a 'know it' kinda guy. To each their own. Don't like the lfms, don't join it. I would rather have Wrunt join my 'know it' lfm rather then another person who joins and immeditaely asks... 'where's the quest'

I don't know why there are all these questionable things as to what something means or interpretations

lfm... 'know it' - how hard is it to figure out this one, it doesn't mean join and pike, doesn't mean it is a learning session, doesn't mean I am going to handhold and carry you through the quest.... KNOW IT means KNOW IT. wow, some people just can't get over the english language

lfm... BYOH - bring your own heals, means don't rely on anyone to heal you, means brings pots/wands/scrolls (not hirelings),means dont get halfway through the quest, have no health and then say...'I don't have any healing'

I guess you probably don't understand it, but you just precisely proved my point.

I know very well that 'know it' absolutely means KNOW IT. Dude said that know it merely means it's not a teaching run and is probably fast paced. As you have pointed out, and everyone already knew, that's complete bull. His explanation/translation is obviously trying to make something that is extremely rude and exclusionary seem less so.

Just like the BYOH dude, who continually claims I don't understand what he is saying even when I directly quote him, likes to pretend that BYOH means (I'll directly quote him again, but he'll still say I don't understand), "would like the people who join to be able to heal themselves to some degree". We all know that BYOH does not mean, or even remotely imply that people who join should kinda, sorta be able to heal themselves a little bit once in awhile. BYOH does not mean "to some degree", it means you are solely responsible for the entirety of your heals.

It's pretty obvious to me that the people I'm talking about completely understand how rude their LFMs are, and that's precisely why they try to tone down the meaning of their LFMs here on the forums. The vast majority of us are able to level and advance our characters by taking whatever we can get in a LFM and going with it, but certain people are too good to rub elbows with the unwashed masses. Those people use BYOH and KNOW IT because they are special people, who deserve only the best and strongest our community has to offer.

[Chai]

Wrunt is one the nicest guys on the server to get along with. He is just not a fan of incompetence.

My take is, he is being up front. Call me rude, but at least you know what you are getting into when you join my group. Also, when I have an LFM up it will 99% of the time have an IP, and will be IP.

You should be yelling just much as the incompetent people joining LFM's and not just the PL's.

The problem with this is other than knowing who the good players are, its hard to separate the competent from the incompetent in PUG LFMs, since many incompetent put up "know it" LFMs as a front to be carried to completion, and as such, doesnt really separate the elitists from the noobs at all. I do like IP better, because it not only filters out those who will not (note I said will not, not cannot, heh) make their way to the quest in timely fashion, it also acts as a "know it" in and of its own right, with the first objective to be able to make it to the quest on ones own.

[Chai]

It's pretty obvious to me that the people I'm talking about completely understand how rude their LFMs are, and that's precisely why they try to tone down the meaning of their LFMs here on the forums. The vast majority of us are able to level and advance our characters by taking whatever we can get in a LFM and going with it, but certain people are too good to rub elbows with the unwashed masses. Those people use BYOH and KNOW IT because they are special people, who deserve only the best and strongest our community has to offer.

I agree, however....why is it that I see people complaining about how elitists play alot, but I see very little of elitists complaining about how everyone else plays. They just want to filter the rest of us 99%-ers out so they can get back to being uber. :p

[thesnoman]

Wrunt is one the nicest guys on the server to get along with. He is just not a fan of incompetence.

My take is, he is being up front. Call me rude, but at least you know what you are getting into when you join my group. Also, when I have an LFM up it will 99% of the time have an IP, and will be IP.

You should be yelling just much as the incompetent people joining LFM's and not just the PL's.


I do agree with this - 100%

Please keep in mind that I'm also an occasional "know it" LFM poster when I post "know it" it means exactly what Wrunt posted:

"Know the quest - It'll be as fast a run as possible - I'm doing this for XP grind and nothing else because I want to get through the boring part of my life - Bring a Hireling if you like - I'm not watching out for you - and don't die"

all condensed into two words - "know it"

This is exactly why I started this thread - "know it" is supposed to be something along the lines of what Wrunt posted

"know it" is not supposed to mean "need guide"

I have no problem joining "need guide" LFMs - I know what I'm getting into. Ask the multitude of players I've taught how to run Tiles in Abbot or stayed late in the Shroud to teach puzzles without a solver. I don't mind, I'm just not always in the mood for it.

If people would remember some simple rules of etiquette in this game we'd all be better for it and there would be more people posting LFMs and more people willing to help. I, now more than ever, believe that people stick to private channels, static groups, guild runs, and solo play because of the nonsense displayed in the LFM panel and on these forums.

BTW - Wrunt I've run several groups with you and will always join any "know it" LFMs you (or any True Reincarnated member) put up - I tend to be quiet and businesslike in most of the groups I join, so I'm easy to forget...but I primarily run on Melkorr (an ugly green WF Earth Savant that I'm in the middle of TRing again) and my wife runs on a variety of characters, but she's primarily on a divine by the name of Gahladria that has run with you many times. Look for us in game!!

[Vint]

The problem with this is other than knowing who the good players are, its hard to separate the competent from the incompetent in PUG LFMs, since many incompetent put up "know it" LFMs as a front to be carried to completion, and as such, doesnt really separate the elitists from the noobs at all.

Completely understand. I have ran into every dumbarse from here to Tulsa. This is why when I do join a pug I am more interested to who is in the party (guilds or names I know) over what is in the comment box.

I just find it hilarious that Chill wants to call some of us rude for playing a certain way, but he does not care to call people rude for ruining our fun. I (nor Wrunt) go out of our way to pick on people or belittle anyone. We just don't care to play with "the unbathed masses" that need their hands held.

If that makes us bad people, so be it. Just ignore us and go preach to someone else on how to be a saint.

[thesnoman]

I do like IP better, because it not only filters out those who will not (note I said will not, not cannot, heh) make their way to the quest in timely fashion, it also acts as a "know it" in and of its own right, with the first objective to be able to make it to the quest on ones own.

Another agreed - although I do have people hit my IP LFMs and immediately ask for a share and/or for the quest location.
(happened on a Shadow Crypt farming run the other night, but since I didn't care about how fast he made it there and was on my 3rd run of the night I guided him as quickly as I could. He contributed to the group - didn't hold us up - followed directions in quest - and since he had never run it before and everyone was in BB level range likely ended up with a tidy amount of XP in the 3 runs I made it through before I capped levels and left the group in another XP farmers hands.)

New players are just that - new. If they speak up and let ,e know I'm ok with that as long as they follow what most consider good etiquette in the game, on the LFM panel, and in these forums. (see my above post for interpretation)

[HackSlashKill]

I guess you probably don't understand it, but you just precisely proved my point.

I know very well that 'know it' absolutely means KNOW IT. Dude said that know it merely means it's not a teaching run and is probably fast paced. As you have pointed out, and everyone already knew, that's complete bull. His explanation/translation is obviously trying to make something that is extremely rude and exclusionary seem less so.

Just like the BYOH dude, who continually claims I don't understand what he is saying even when I directly quote him, likes to pretend that BYOH means (I'll directly quote him again, but he'll still say I don't understand), "would like the people who join to be able to heal themselves to some degree". We all know that BYOH does not mean, or even remotely imply that people who join should kinda, sorta be able to heal themselves a little bit once in awhile. BYOH does not mean "to some degree", it means you are solely responsible for the entirety of your heals.

It's pretty obvious to me that the people I'm talking about completely understand how rude their LFMs are, and that's precisely why they try to tone down the meaning of their LFMs here on the forums. The vast majority of us are able to level and advance our characters by taking whatever we can get in a LFM and going with it, but certain people are too good to rub elbows with the unwashed masses. Those people use BYOH and KNOW IT because they are special people, who deserve only the best and strongest our community has to offer.

Oh, I get it, and I understand... and I am also one of 'those' people who uses BYOH in everyone of my lfms, and I still get idiots showing up with no way of healing themselves. I am not an elitist but I do make sure I am prepared for a quest. Such as blindness removals, and curse pots and lesser restores, and etc.

The only person being rude here is you and the comments you are making about 'those people'.

And yep, when I first started, I showed up to quests unprepared and such but I didn't even get out of the harbor before I went and spent my money on cure light pots.

Nowadays, I expect that pep with still be in the harbor or even marketplace quests without having pots, but they have swiped signet (blinded) and redfang (poison and lesser restore) and even waterworks shaman(curses) to get pep to realize that hey, maybe go buy some pots and be prepared.

Lastly, if you don't know the quests, start a lfm saying 'learning quests'. I am sure there would be a whole bunch of chilldudes who are learning the game who would love to jump in.

[DarkForte]

It's pretty obvious to me that the people I'm talking about completely understand how rude their LFMs are, and that's precisely why they try to tone down the meaning of their LFMs here on the forums. The vast majority of us are able to level and advance our characters by taking whatever we can get in a LFM and going with it, but certain people are too good to rub elbows with the unwashed masses. Those people use BYOH and KNOW IT because they are special people, who deserve only the best and strongest our community has to offer.

Most of my non-raid/EE stuff LFMs read "Heal yourself.". Know why? Because by the time you hit the LFM, I'll be halfway through the quest. Not being able to heal yourself will make you useless in there, since when you get there and catch up with me, there'll be no one who can heal you. Then you'll die. And I'll rez you, assuming out of naïveté that you just screwed something up, or lagged, or pulled a bit more than you can handle... all of which happens to everyone. Then you'll stay a minute at 25 hp waiting for some magical healing to come from the skies... Then you'll die again as soon as we hit a pack of mobs.

That isn't fun to any of the parties involved. Am I rude or elitist for warning you that if you can't heal yourself you'll spend the quest as a soulstone because my healing capabilities are very bad on the toon I am on - or maybe that's where the problem lies: I should stick to playing toons with scroll mastery to hjeal you. Apparently yes, I am a huge arse for doing that. But looking on the bright side, if you think I'm a huge arse for not wanting your non-self-healing character, you'll stay away from my LFMs, and you won't get the unpleasant experience I laid out above. :)

[bartharok]

Completely understand. I have ran into every dumbarse from here to Tulsa. This is why when I do join a pug I am more interested to who is in the party (guilds or names I know) over what is in the comment box.

I just find it hilarious that Chill wants to call some of us rude for playing a certain way, but he does not care to call people rude for ruining our fun. I (nor Wrunt) go out of our way to pick on people or belittle anyone. We just don't care to play with "the unbathed masses" that need their hands held.

If that makes us bad people, so be it. Just ignore us and go preach to someone else on how to be a saint.

ruining someones fun is not necessarily a crime, you know. Some definitions of fun are decidedly evil. So ruining your fun wont keep me from sleeping at night, if your idea of fun annoys me. Just like it goes for you, i doubt that you lose sleep for avoiding things that you find ruin your fun, and ruining mine in the progress. THats life, see.

[HackSlashKill]

Most of my non-raid/EE stuff LFMs read "Heal yourself.". Know why? Because by the time you hit the LFM, I'll be halfway through the quest. Not being able to heal yourself will make you useless in there, since when you get there and catch up with me, there'll be no one who can heal you. Then you'll die. And I'll rez you, assuming out of naïveté that you just screwed something up, or lagged, or pulled a bit more than you can handle... all of which happens to everyone. Then you'll stay a minute at 25 hp waiting for some magical healing to come from the skies... Then you'll die again as soon as we hit a pack of mobs.

That isn't fun to any of the parties involved. Am I rude or elitist for warning you that if you can't heal yourself you'll spend the quest as a soulstone because my healing capabilities are very bad on the toon I am on - or maybe that's where the problem lies: I should stick to playing toons with scroll mastery to hjeal you. Apparently yes, I am a huge arse for doing that. But looking on the bright side, if you think I'm a huge arse for not wanting your non-self-healing character, you'll stay away from my LFMs, and you won't get the unpleasant experience I laid out above. :)

EXACTLY. If I had a nickel for every time someone sat at 25 hp waiting for a magical heal from the skies, I would have so much money, I could buy Turbine and get the bugs fixed. And then the said person with 25 hp continues to wander into the mass of mobs only to become yet another soulstone for my backpack.

Many times these future soulstone I have said to stay where they are if they have no healing. And yet (wander, wander,wander) into the mass of mobs... *ding*

And we are considered rude for wanting pep to bring healing pots???

[Phaeton_Seraph]

I don't get the point of many IP LFMs.

If you're item/window farming, that's OK. But I don't want to rush to a quest only to have it ended by the time I catch up with the party. That's just not fun.
I only join now if I really want the end chest item, or desperately want to flag.

Furthermore, because of the zerg mentality, there are quests I have run many times, yet don't actually know my way around. 10-20 times I just tried to keep up with my party members and kill or simply not die.

Then you join an IP party and get criticised for being unsure of which way you're going?

Yeah, if you're using "IP" to filter people out, it works for me now, I've learned that lesson. If I don't know it, I don't join it. But if you get newbies who don't know their way, and maybe hurt your XP because you only put "IP" in the LFM and were unwilling to guide them, I have no sympathy for you.
At least the elitist rude garbage LFMs dissuade most newbies from joining parties like that.

[Wipey]

Do they even exist?
Yep. Every day.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2730/fmll.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/fmll.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Chilldude]

Oh, I get it, and I understand...

I'm not so sure you do, but that's OK, I appreciate your help anyway.

[Chilldude]

I agree, however....why is it that I see people complaining about how elitists play alot, but I see very little of elitists complaining about how everyone else plays. They just want to filter the rest of us 99%-ers out so they can get back to being uber. :p

I don't know, I can't explain why you don't see elitists complaining a lot, I see it all the time. Like this thread, and half the posts in it. Nearly every single time a thread like this happens, which is about everyday, the person that started the thread is complaining about how someone didn't perform up to their standards. I very rarely see a thread that was started by someone complaining that they can't live up to someone else's standards.

The funniest part of the whole thing is that the elitists are constantly crying about people ruining their parties, yet if you truly are uber then what another player does in the party doesn't affect you. In my opinion, the reason why people get so upset that they feel the need to come here and complain about some noob joining their group and ruining everything is that they are nowhere near as uber as they would like to think they are. They've zerged a few times in a a good group, so they get an inflated opinion of their abilities, now if something goes wrong in a quest they know it's not their fault because obviously they are uber.

Thing is, old Chilldude has played with ALL the same people they have. The good, the bad, and the ugly. Somehow I always manage to get it done with whoever clicks join on my "All Welcome" LFMs. I'm not going to say I can power through any quest with 5 soul stones in my back pocket, but I've never had to either. I can say that there's only been a handful of times for as long as I've been playing that the group just simply wasn't able to complete the quest. One of those times was a made to order run, where this totally random pug played like a totally random pug
and the bulk of the party died at the first door. Everyone released, some people talked about leaving, others talked about doing a different quest, but I suggested we give it another go. This time, before we went back in, we got the rogue better gear and we got the divine a handful of wands. When we went back in, we played as a team, and not only did we complete, we finished without a single death. Everyone was stoked, and most of the people in the party commented on how much fun they had, how they didn't think we'd be able to do it, and they were so glad we stuck it out and gave it another go.

I know, I know... ain't nobody got time for that.

That one guy said that other dude is the nicest person on Thelanis, he just doesn't tolerate incompetence. That statement disproves itself. Nice isn't something that happens when everything goes perfectly, nice is what happens when everything goes wrong. Nice is giving people the benefit of the doubt. Nice is being understanding and compassionate about another player's short comings. Nice is pointing out alternative avenues to pursue, instead of pointing fingers. Nice isn't only playing with people who can help you, nice is playing with whomever comes along regardless of who's carrying who.

I don't have a problem with KNOW IT or BYOH. I actually like BYOH and KNOW IT. I don't enjoy playing with rude, intolerant people who cry and sigh at every little hiccup, so I appreciate those type of people filtering themselves out of my life with they rude and needlessly exclusionary LFMs. That's why I always put All Welcome in my LFM, so that if one of those types happens to join my party, there's simply no excuse for them to get bent out of shape if someone doesn't happen to perform up to their standards.

So no, I can't explain why you don't see the elitists complaining, nor why it seems to you that people are often complaining about them. I've never started a thread to complain about them, but when they start threads complaining about the average Joe who's just trying to play the game, yeah, I'll probably have something to say.

[shajib]

Yep. Every day.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2730/fmll.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/fmll.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Ok thanks for the laugh over this. Its ok to be a beginner and ask for help, but when you think you know it all then add a "need guide" in lfm it just make you look look like a fool.

[swadesblynx]

are the vip's going to get something for being down for 2 days????? hopefully, so. :)

[mobrien316]

We all know that BYOH does not mean, or even remotely imply that people who join should kinda, sorta be able to heal themselves a little bit once in awhile. BYOH does not mean "to some degree", it means you are solely responsible for the entirety of your heals.

How can you possibly claim to know what BYOH means when you've already written:

I've said it dozens of times, I do not, have not, and will not ever join BYOH groups. Therefore I will be the first to admit I have zero knowledge of how friendly or unfriendly the average BYOHer is, other than what the rest of their LFM contains and how they conduct themselves in public forums.

You have NEVER been in a BYOH group, but you claim to know more about them than people who post BYOH groups?

Do you even read what you write?

[WruntJunior]

How can you possibly claim to know what BYOH means when you've already written:


You have NEVER been in a BYOH group, but you claim to know more about them than people who post BYOH groups?

Do you even read what you write?

He's on a crusade....you have no power here with your logic. :P Just because he never joins these groups doesn't mean he can't possibly know that all the people in them are rude, intolerant, and mean, can it? :P

Oh, wait...

[Nedime]

One of those times was a made to order run, where this totally random pug played like a totally random pug
(snip) This time, before we went back in, we got the rogue better gear and we got the divine a handful of wands.

What we're speaking of ? Aren't there two shrines in made to order ? Why would a divine need a wand in this ? Oh maybe a wand of remove blindness (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=407902) ? :D

[bartharok]

How can you possibly claim to know what BYOH means when you've already written:


You have NEVER been in a BYOH group, but you claim to know more about them than people who post BYOH groups?

Do you even read what you write?

HE means the ultra defensive mode some BYOHers enter on the forums, see.

[Chilldude]

How can you possibly claim to know what BYOH means when you've already written:


You have NEVER been in a BYOH group, but you claim to know more about them than people who post BYOH groups?

Do you even read what you write?

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong about that? You don't have to play in BYOH to know what it means. In fact, that's the entire point of BYOH, that people should know what it means so that they do not join. You never cease to amaze me.

[WruntJunior]

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong about that? You don't have to play in BYOH to know what it means. In fact, that's the entire point of BYOH, that people should know what it means so that they do not join. You never cease to amaze me.

While you claim to know what it means, people who regularly participate in it tell you that you have the wrong view of it, and you shout them down saying they have no idea what they're talking about...and you precede to tell people what groups (like BYOH groups, especially - you seem to have a special distaste for them, as I have observed from how commonly you speak against them) like those are always like, and still claim to have neither joined them nor ever intend to join them. What you're doing is a disingenuous assertation of a falsehood without accepting the possibility of you being incorrect, and denying evidence to the contrary.

[bartharok]

Relax, the lot of you, its not the real world

[WruntJunior]

Relax, the lot of you, its not the real world

What else are we supposed to do at 7am (for me at least) when the servers are still down? :P

[Chilldude]

He's on a crusade....you have no power here with your logic. :P Just because he never joins these groups doesn't mean he can't possibly know that all the people in them are rude, intolerant, and mean, can it? :P

Oh, wait...

Logic?

Tell ya what, let's clear this up right here and now... does BYOH mean Bring Your Own Heals, as in you are entirely responsible for your own red bar? Because if that's not what it means, then yes, I have the wrong impression of BYOH. If BYOH merely means you can expect others to heal you, but you should also have some pots with you just in case, well, if it means that, then I've been totally incorrect about it for a very long time.

So tell ya what... you get all your BYOH buddies to agree that BYOH merely means you can expect to be healed by others but you should have some pots just in case, and I'll agree that it isn't a rude and needlessly exclusionary LFM restriction.

[bartharok]

What else are we supposed to do at 7am (for me at least) when the servers are still down? :P

read a good book? i know i would if i wasnt feeling like my head was stuffed with red hot cotton

[Chilldude]

While you claim to know what it means, people who regularly participate in it tell you that you have the wrong view of it

I claim to know what it means without participating in it, yes indeed I do. I've never drank from a "whites only" drinking fountain, but I know what that means as well.

[WruntJunior]

Logic?

Tell ya what, let's clear this up right here and now... does BYOH mean Bring Your Own Heals, as in you are entirely responsible for your own red bar? Because if that's not what it means, then yes, I have the wrong impression of BYOH. If BYOH merely means you can expect others to heal you, but you should also have some pots with you just in case, well, if it means that, then I've been totally incorrect about it for a very long time.

So tell ya what... you get all your BYOH buddies to agree that BYOH merely means you can expect to be healed by others but you should have some pots just in case, and I'll agree that it isn't a rude and needlessly exclusionary LFM restriction.

BYOH means, at its base, literally what it says on the label - be capable of taking care of your own heals as necessary. Implicit with this is being able to take care of most debuffs of which can typically be taken care by your character (a little build-dependent - a barbarian is much less likely to be able to get neg levels than a cleric, for example), and come with the buffs you know you'll need. This does not mean that you won't receive healing, just that if you join the group, you should be able to provide this as necessary for yourself. I have yet to see anyone else that regularly runs these types of groups take BYOH to mean anything different.

Edit: In all honesty, it should be a common sense descriptor thing for people to have the means to give themselves the buffs they absolutely need (to an extent - FoM, for example, can be notoriously hard to get - pretty much one set of boots that never seems to drop), the means to cure their own stat afflictions, and the means to heal themselves at least to the best of their ability - this type of preparation just makes things go smoother in general. Unfortunately, many people can't (or more often, won't) do this, and we are left with having to include the BYOH LFM descriptor to get people capable of self-sufficiency (which is, interestingly enough, an important factor in ensuring quick XP runs - which is why this tag is often used in LFMs by people running multi-TR characters).

[Chilldude]

BYOH means, at its base, literally what it says on the label - be capable of taking care of your own heals as necessary. Implicit with this is being able to take care of most debuffs of which can typically be taken care by your character (a little build-dependent - a barbarian is much less likely to be able to get neg levels than a cleric, for example), and come with the buffs you know you'll need. This does not mean that you won't receive healing, just that if you join the group, you should be able to provide this as necessary for yourself. I have yet to see anyone else that regularly runs these types of groups take BYOH to mean anything different.

So now you admit that I do indeed understand what BYOH means? So earlier you said I didn't know what BYOH means just to sound cool? I don't get it.

[WruntJunior]

So now you admit that I do indeed understand what BYOH means? So earlier you said I didn't know what BYOH means just to sound cool? I don't get it.


Logic?

Tell ya what, let's clear this up right here and now... does BYOH mean Bring Your Own Heals, as in you are entirely responsible for your own red bar? Because if that's not what it means, then yes, I have the wrong impression of BYOH. If BYOH merely means you can expect others to heal you, but you should also have some pots with you just in case, well, if it means that, then I've been totally incorrect about it for a very long time.

So tell ya what... you get all your BYOH buddies to agree that BYOH merely means you can expect to be healed by others but you should have some pots just in case, and I'll agree that it isn't a rude and needlessly exclusionary LFM restriction.

I thought I was pretty clear that the bolded part was wrong.

[bartharok]

You two have been at it in several threads, its really not worth it (unless youre in a real bad mood, and want to spread it around), so kiss and make up, will ya.

[IBCROOTBEER]

The only thing i usually put in my LFM's usually states that people can pike if they want to.

ex. "Elite - Bravery - Come pike if you want to."

That's my most common. I tend to solo most of the time anyway, but I don't mind sharing the XP with others even if they're lazy. I tend to get hit son my LFM and its usually decent players. Rarely is it that pikers actually join. They're probably already piking the marketplace :D

[Chilldude]

I thought I was pretty clear that the bolded part was wrong.

Here's what you say BYOH means:

"BYOH means, at its base, literally what it says on the label - be capable of taking care of your own heals as necessary."

Here's what I asked if BYOH means:

"does BYOH mean Bring Your Own Heals, as in you are entirely responsible for your own red bar?"

I think it's pretty clear that BYOH means exactly what it implies, BRING YOUR OWN HEALS. I think everyone understands this. I think some people know it's rude, and they try to apologize for it as an after thought. "Well, when I say it, I don't really mean it like that. I just kinda mean sorta a little bit."

If you mean something less rude and needlessly exclusionary than what is being said, then you should say that instead. If you mean fast paced instead of know it, then you should say fast paced instead of know it. If you say know it, then I'm going to take you at your word that you are rude, intolerant, and needlessly exclusionary.

[Chilldude]

You two have been at it in several threads, its really not worth it (unless youre in a real bad mood, and want to spread it around), so kiss and make up, will ya.

OMG! People are actually discussing something in the discussion forum. STOP IT! C'mon people, post pictures of cats or something.

[WruntJunior]

Here's what you say BYOH means:

"BYOH means, at its base, literally what it says on the label - be capable of taking care of your own heals as necessary."

Here's what I asked if BYOH means:

"does BYOH mean Bring Your Own Heals, as in you are entirely responsible for your own red bar?"

I think it's pretty clear that BYOH means exactly what it implies, BRING YOUR OWN HEALS. I think everyone understands this. I think some people know it's rude, and they try to apologize for it as an after thought. "Well, when I say it, I don't really mean it like that. I just kinda mean sorta a little bit."

If you mean something less rude and needlessly exclusionary than what is being said, then you should say that instead. If you mean fast paced instead of know it, then you should say fast paced instead of know it. If you say know it, then I'm going to take you at your word that you are rude, intolerant, and needlessly exclusionary.

It's times like this, when I realize someone's cherry-picking my posts for quotes to try to prove me wrong on something they know almost nothing about, that I'm glad to remember the forum ignore feature.

[Chilldude]

It's times like this, when I realize someone's cherry-picking my posts for quotes to try to prove me wrong, that I'm glad to remember the forum ignore feature.

Cherry picking your posts? You said it in this very thread! Like a page or two back. It's like the entire point of this back and forth discussion we're having. THE ENTIRE POINT.

[bartharok]

OMG! People are actually discussing something in the discussion forum. STOP IT! C'mon people, post pictures of cats or something.

Its just that you two keep on fighting about the whole BYOH thing, its not worth the highjacking

[Nedime]

Here's what you say BYOH means:

I think it's pretty clear that BYOH means exactly what it implies, BRING YOUR OWN HEALS. I think everyone understands this. I think some people know it's rude, and they try to apologize for it as an after thought. "Well, when I say it, I don't really mean it like that. I just kinda mean sorta a little bit."



It is also pretty clear that it does not mean "I'll watch you die without moving a finger".

Instead of speaking of things you know without having tried, try it and then speak of your experience. Like everything else in MMOs you'll find the usual 10% arses/jerks but I'm sure you'll find many interresting things - for instance that there are other parties configuration that the usual 1 caster 1 trapper 1 healer rest melees and that THIS can bring fun, new strategies, and, yes, respect. Winning a nastee dungeon with no dedicated healer can bring this.

The other thing is we all would like to have our back covered with a loving nannybot but there are less and less of them, and it can take a looooooong time to fill a group (blah blah) so why not start, type IP/BYOH. People can read (although they often don't) If they see the adventure is active for x minutes they know they'll have to at least be self sufficient till they can meet the rest of the group.

[eden2760]

Here's what you say BYOH means:

"BYOH means, at its base, literally what it says on the label - be capable of taking care of your own heals as necessary."

Here's what I asked if BYOH means:

"does BYOH mean Bring Your Own Heals, as in you are entirely responsible for your own red bar?"

I think it's pretty clear that BYOH means exactly what it implies, BRING YOUR OWN HEALS. I think everyone understands this. I think some people know it's rude, and they try to apologize for it as an after thought. "Well, when I say it, I don't really mean it like that. I just kinda mean sorta a little bit."

If you mean something less rude and needlessly exclusionary than what is being said, then you should say that instead. If you mean fast paced instead of know it, then you should say fast paced instead of know it. If you say know it, then I'm going to take you at your word that you are rude, intolerant, and needlessly exclusionary.

There's a good example of the problem. You only view BYOH as "rude". "Know it's rude" as if there is no other way to view it by anyone. You weren't just talking about your POV, you think everyone does (or should) think it's rude.

That is a complete fallacy. There are varying levels of play in DDO groups. Casual groups, and xp/min focused zerg groups alike. And to expect that everyone who posts an LFM indiscriminately lets anyone who applies, regardless of skillset, skilllevel, or understanding of the game in general into their group, whilst thinking that it's unacceptable to do otherwise, is just dumb.

.

Let me put it this way: I wouldn't challenge Lance Armstrong to a bike race and then qq when he refuses to ride a tricycle to suit me.

[Chilldude]

Its just that you two keep on fighting about the whole BYOH thing, its not worth the highjacking

The subject of this thread is "know it". That is what is being discussed. This little torrent of the discussion formed around the idea that "know it" merely means not a teaching run, probably fast paced. I responded to that indicating that people like to claim on the forum that they aren't trying to be as exclusionary as the LFM would imply, and that it's my opinion their attempt at mitigation is evidence they understand it to be rude and needlessly exclusionary at face value.

I'll give you that it's a slight tangent, but it's certainly not off topic, and therefore can't be construed as a hijack.

[bartharok]

The subject of this thread is "know it". That is what is being discussed. This little torrent of the discussion formed around the idea that "know it" merely means not a teaching run, probably fast paced. I responded to that indicating that people like to claim on the forum that they aren't trying to be as exclusionary as the LFM would imply, and that it's my opinion their attempt at mitigation is evidence they understand it to be rude and needlessly exclusionary at face value.

I'll give you that it's a slight tangent, but it's certainly not off topic, and therefore can't be construed as a hijack.

Its not a purposeful highjack, that ill grant you, but the conversation HAS turned to BYOH again

[Loriac]

I don't have any cleric toons, and tend to build my characters to be self sufficient, so for a long time BYOH didn't affect me from either direction.

However, recently, I encountered a situation that highlighted to me just how frustrating it must be for a lot of experienced Cleric / FVS players.

I was on my main a few days ago, a capped WF artificer (now TR'd), and a L21 melee WF fighter / barb / rogue joined the group. This guy clearly had experience of DDO, he mentioned he'd been playing on and off for years, and had items such as e.g. a PLIS, so I figured he knew the game mechanics etc.

Because I was playing an artificer, he expected me to repair him when his health was low. Now the truth is that whilst WF artificers are spec'd for reconstruct, I'm simply not used to watching other peoples' red bars. He yelled out for hjeals a few times, and came close to dying more than once as I scrambled to target him and heal (he was ofc not in LoS from me most of the time). I figured, well its only for while I'm in this PUG, so I'll suck it up for the time being.

Anyway, I noticed that he wasn't healing up between fights, and he expected me to use my blue bar to heal him. Note that I don't even use my blue bar on my own toon except in emergencies (e.g. in combat healing when I've drawn boss aggro or some such). So anyway, I threw him a couple of heals (scrolled) and noticed they were hitting for 50%. I asked him if he had healers friend, and he said yes, but only level 1 as the other tiers were too expensive and affected his ability to dps. I told him that as a melee WF, he almost had an obligation to get HF III, and clerics were likely to be annoyed if he didn't. Then I asked him if he had UMD (since he had rogue levels) and he said no. This was when I started to get irritated. I asked him why he didn't build self-sufficiency, and he responded that in his view, DDO should be played with people taking on their class roles - fighters 'tanking', clerics (and arcanes in the case of WF melee) healing, etc. I said thats all well and good, but its not how DDO is. Anyway, he didn't accept this. He also said how few healers played their role in DDO these days; I responded and said that he should build a cleric toon himself, and create his own LFMs in the style he wanted to play. His response? "I like hitting things as a melee". So I said that so did most people, and it was unfair of him to expect others to change their play style to accommodate his. The response to this was again the appeal to MMO traditional roles of tank / dps / healer / cc.

So anyway, the whole thing left a very sour taste in my mouth. If this is what clerics and FVS get all the time, I can understand what drives them to put up byoh. I'd do exactly the same in their shoes.

And for what its worth, it doesn't take great amounts of time or plat to be self sufficient. My first toon on Cannith was created on the day the server opened, and he was a melee halfling 28pt 12Ftr/6Rgr/2Monk build (the old 'monster') with dragonmarks. I used to run quite often with a cleric player, and he and I once had a conversation after a pug where I noticed he was blowing through his sp very quickly. I asked him why that was, and he said that a couple of the other melees in the group were mana sponges. He also said that my character wasn't like that, that typically he hardly needed to concentrate on my red bar because I didn't seem to take much damage and I also topped up as necessary without his help. I was also usually top or close to top dps in groups I was in with my character, largely because everyone at the time was badly geared.


So, TL;DR summary:

Whilst some posters are trying to portray byoh as some kind of elitist plot, in reality theres only so much nonsense you can take in a game you play to have fun , that you soon conclude that players who expect to get their enjoyment at your expense should be filtered out of your groups.

[eden2760]

Its not a purposeful highjack, that ill grant you, but the conversation HAS turned to BYOH again

That's probably because (to some of us) know it/BYOH is in the same vein. It implies self-sufficiency, knowledge of the quest and a general lack of the need for hand-holding. The two are inherently related to us "elitist bastards".

[eden2760]

...

Whilst some posters are trying to portray byoh as some kind of elitist plot, in reality theres only so much nonsense you can take in a game you play to have fun , that you soon conclude that players who expect to get their enjoyment at your expense should be filtered out of your groups.

Wow... that sums up the entire thing quite nicely.

+1

[Deathdefy]

Here's what I asked if BYOH means:

"does BYOH mean Bring Your Own Heals, as in you are entirely responsible for your own red bar?"


That phrasing's not really correct. If you're tripped or otherwise in trouble you can legitimately expect heals from others without violating even the harshest construction of BYOH.

You'll often (read literally every BYOH group I've ever hosted or joined) receive healing from others players anyway if you're only chugging CSW pots where other players have heal spells, heal scrolls or cure crit wands. I'll give anything superior to a player I see chugging pots, and have universally experienced the same in return when my UMD has been still too trashy for wands.

I think a fairer phrasing is "Have the capacity to heal yourself". In EE, that means pots and wands are inadequate, but up until there they are sufficient.

BYOH doesn't magically become 6 people solo-ing a quest all ignoring each other entirely, united in their common snobbery and sense of superiority to every other player.

Mostly it's a really nice scene. Crowd Control happens where needed, there's always lots of dps to annihilate mobs where it's not needed, and there's generally a lot of casual chat between players who know the game well enough to not bother talking about the quest. Oh, and occasionally people say "invis here, does anyone need it cast on them".

The unifying features amongst BYOHers are that they:
- don't want to wait for a cleric / FvS willing to play healbot
- have enough pots / wands / heal spells and what not that they can keep themselves up

The unifying feature isn't something sinister and dark about new player hate. I also don't understand the perception that it's rude. Far ruder to not label the lfm as such!

It obviously results in some exclusions, but that's good for everyone. Players without the game knowledge or resources to BYOH are going to have a miserable time in a group keen to just start questing, healer or not. BYOH-ers are going to have less fun if they have to wait for healers.

Personally, I regularly avoided BYOH pugs on my first life barbarian, because I couldn't afford enough pots to join them more than about once per level. Even with the healing assistance that goes on, you drink a lot of pots on a barb.

Now I make characters that can UMD and dislike playing barbs anyway. I also probably could finance pots for a barb... well not right now as I have like 40k plat account-wide, but I could save!

[WruntJunior]

I don't have any cleric toons, and tend to build my characters to be self sufficient, so for a long time BYOH didn't affect me from either direction.

However, recently, I encountered a situation that highlighted to me just how frustrating it must be for a lot of experienced Cleric / FVS players.

I was on my main a few days ago, a capped WF artificer (now TR'd), and a L21 melee WF fighter / barb / rogue joined the group. This guy clearly had experience of DDO, he mentioned he'd been playing on and off for years, and had items such as e.g. a PLIS, so I figured he knew the game mechanics etc.

Because I was playing an artificer, he expected me to repair him when his health was low. Now the truth is that whilst WF artificers are spec'd for reconstruct, I'm simply not used to watching other peoples' red bars. He yelled out for hjeals a few times, and came close to dying more than once as I scrambled to target him and heal (he was ofc not in LoS from me most of the time). I figured, well its only for while I'm in this PUG, so I'll suck it up for the time being.

Anyway, I noticed that he wasn't healing up between fights, and he expected me to use my blue bar to heal him. Note that I don't even use my blue bar on my own toon except in emergencies (e.g. in combat healing when I've drawn boss aggro or some such). So anyway, I threw him a couple of heals (scrolled) and noticed they were hitting for 50%. I asked him if he had healers friend, and he said yes, but only level 1 as the other tiers were too expensive and affected his ability to dps. I told him that as a melee WF, he almost had an obligation to get HF III, and clerics were likely to be annoyed if he didn't. Then I asked him if he had UMD (since he had rogue levels) and he said no. This was when I started to get irritated. I asked him why he didn't build self-sufficiency, and he responded that in his view, DDO should be played with people taking on their class roles - fighters 'tanking', clerics (and arcanes in the case of WF melee) healing, etc. I said thats all well and good, but its not how DDO is. Anyway, he didn't accept this. He also said how few healers played their role in DDO these days; I responded and said that he should build a cleric toon himself, and create his own LFMs in the style he wanted to play. His response? "I like hitting things as a melee". So I said that so did most people, and it was unfair of him to expect others to change their play style to accommodate his. The response to this was again the appeal to MMO traditional roles of tank / dps / healer / cc.

So anyway, the whole thing left a very sour taste in my mouth. If this is what clerics and FVS get all the time, I can understand what drives them to put up byoh. I'd do exactly the same in their shoes.

And for what its worth, it doesn't take great amounts of time or plat to be self sufficient. My first toon on Cannith was created on the day the server opened, and he was a melee halfling 28pt 12Ftr/6Rgr/2Monk build (the old 'monster') with dragonmarks. I used to run quite often with a cleric player, and he and I once had a conversation after a pug where I noticed he was blowing through his sp very quickly. I asked him why that was, and he said that a couple of the other melees in the group were mana sponges. He also said that my character wasn't like that, that typically he hardly needed to concentrate on my red bar because I didn't seem to take much damage and I also topped up as necessary without his help. I was also usually top or close to top dps in groups I was in with my character, largely because everyone at the time was badly geared.


So, TL;DR summary:

Whilst some posters are trying to portray byoh as some kind of elitist plot, in reality theres only so much nonsense you can take in a game you play to have fun , that you soon conclude that players who expect to get their enjoyment at your expense should be filtered out of your groups.

I've read stories like this many times, and experienced them several times myself - these types of things are the reason why people start running BYOH groups on their divines and maybe eventually either not pugging their divines or TRing them (I have neither of my original divines in my roster - my melee FvS is a Juggernaut now, and my evoker FvS is a Shiradi Sorc).

+1 for the good summation on one of the main reasons why these types of groups exist, though.

[Nedime]

I don't have any cleric toons, and tend to build my characters to be self sufficient, so for a long time BYOH didn't affect me from either direction.

However, recently, I encountered a situation that highlighted to me just how frustrating it must be for a lot of experienced Cleric / FVS players.

I was on my main a few days ago, a capped WF artificer (now TR'd), and a L21 melee WF fighter / barb / rogue joined the group. This guy clearly had experience of DDO, he mentioned he'd been playing on and off for years, and had items such as e.g. a PLIS, so I figured he knew the game mechanics etc.

Because I was playing an artificer, he expected me to repair him when his health was low. Now the truth is that whilst WF artificers are spec'd for reconstruct, I'm simply not used to watching other peoples' red bars. He yelled out for hjeals a few times, and came close to dying more than once as I scrambled to target him and heal (he was ofc not in LoS from me most of the time). I figured, well its only for while I'm in this PUG, so I'll suck it up for the time being.

Anyway, I noticed that he wasn't healing up between fights, and he expected me to use my blue bar to heal him. Note that I don't even use my blue bar on my own toon except in emergencies (e.g. in combat healing when I've drawn boss aggro or some such). So anyway, I threw him a couple of heals (scrolled) and noticed they were hitting for 50%. I asked him if he had healers friend, and he said yes, but only level 1 as the other tiers were too expensive and affected his ability to dps. I told him that as a melee WF, he almost had an obligation to get HF III, and clerics were likely to be annoyed if he didn't. Then I asked him if he had UMD (since he had rogue levels) and he said no. This was when I started to get irritated. I asked him why he didn't build self-sufficiency, and he responded that in his view, DDO should be played with people taking on their class roles - fighters 'tanking', clerics (and arcanes in the case of WF melee) healing, etc. I said thats all well and good, but its not how DDO is. Anyway, he didn't accept this. He also said how few healers played their role in DDO these days; I responded and said that he should build a cleric toon himself, and create his own LFMs in the style he wanted to play. His response? "I like hitting things as a melee". So I said that so did most people, and it was unfair of him to expect others to change their play style to accommodate his. The response to this was again the appeal to MMO traditional roles of tank / dps / healer / cc.

So anyway, the whole thing left a very sour taste in my mouth. If this is what clerics and FVS get all the time, I can understand what drives them to put up byoh. I'd do exactly the same in their shoes.

And for what its worth, it doesn't take great amounts of time or plat to be self sufficient. My first toon on Cannith was created on the day the server opened, and he was a melee halfling 28pt 12Ftr/6Rgr/2Monk build (the old 'monster') with dragonmarks. I used to run quite often with a cleric player, and he and I once had a conversation after a pug where I noticed he was blowing through his sp very quickly. I asked him why that was, and he said that a couple of the other melees in the group were mana sponges. He also said that my character wasn't like that, that typically he hardly needed to concentrate on my red bar because I didn't seem to take much damage and I also topped up as necessary without his help. I was also usually top or close to top dps in groups I was in with my character, largely because everyone at the time was badly geared.


So, TL;DR summary:

Whilst some posters are trying to portray byoh as some kind of elitist plot, in reality theres only so much nonsense you can take in a game you play to have fun , that you soon conclude that players who expect to get their enjoyment at your expense should be filtered out of your groups.


too bad i spent too much +1's in the last 24 hrs I owe you one.

[Chilldude]

It is also pretty clear that it does not mean "I'll watch you die without moving a finger".

Instead of speaking of things you know without having tried, try it and then speak of your experience.

That's my entire point on the matter. I do not NEED to try it. I, like the vast majority of the players in the community, am able to take whatever comes from a public grouping situation and make the most of it. I'm able to level and advance all my characters without having to resort to exclusionary tactics. So if I can do it, I would think the uber elite among us would be capable of doing it as well. So their exclusionary LFMs aren't there to help ensure the group's ability to complete the quest, it's to screen out weaker players so their easy completion is a bit faster.

See, I've got a lot of friends who play this game. What I mean by that is exactly what I said, they play this game. There are a ton of people just like my friends that aren't my friends because I haven't played with them yet. Most of my friends who play this game aren't... dare I say it... self sufficient! EEK!

These aren't bad people looking to suck all the fun out of the game for others. These are super nice people, with families and jobs, who don't have 8-12 hours to face grind every day. When your LFM says that you do not want THEM in your party, you LFM says that you do not want ME in your party.

I'm as self sufficient as they come. I also certainly 'know it'. I don't attack people who post BYOH and KNOW IT, I defend my friends, as they do their own.

[D3M0N5_GR0WL]

The way it works is you put know it in party chat your going to end up with a couple noobs in group thinking they are gonna cost to free xp cause its a know it group not realizing the other5 members in party are doing same thing... so if you are group leader dont put know it in lfm... Multi trs do not join those groups mostly cause we know itsd gonna be a wipe or horrible run... i PuG every life from lvl 1-20... best way to do it is just Put "iP or will be at end" of Lfm... ppl i guess think "Huh they have to know it or be confident enough to solo, ill join them" then they join...

[thesnoman]

OK so Chill and Wrunt - you both agree that BYOH = Bring your own heals

It seems to be the EXTENT to which you must heal yourself and whether it is "Rude" or "Elitist"

To the first part - what extent are you responsible for healing yourself?

The reality is that you should first look at the party makeup. Is there a divine caster in the party? NO - Assume you are fully responsible for your red bar and ask the party leader if popping a hireling is OK if that's what you feel constitutes BYOH. Yes - /tell the divine and ask if they are willing to heal you.

As for keeping a variety of Pots/scrolls to buff and eliminate de-buffs - common sense for some players - may need to be re-iterated to others. BYOH LFMs ALWAYS mean you should have pots/scrolls on you to take care of de-buffs.


Are BYOH "Rude" - apparently some think so - I don't. My take is exactly what I posted before - especially since when I do occasionally start them I know I can take care of myself in the quest and can't take care of others (unless they are WF when I'm on my Sorc)

Is BYOH "Elitist" - NO Same answer and everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I'm not likely to change your mind and you're not likely to change mine.


There are many things that I think are Rude that occur when LFMs are posted - most doesn't happen in the description panel. Descriptions are for what the Leader expects out of the group - don't like it, don't join. If you do join an LFM with ground rules and then blatantly don't adhere to what the LFM leader set as ground rules in the beginning - that is rude.

[WruntJunior]

The way it works is you put know it in party chat your going to end up with a couple noobs in group thinking they are gonna cost to free xp cause its a know it group not realizing the other5 members in party are doing same thing... so if you are group leader dont put know it in lfm... Multi trs do not join those groups mostly cause we know itsd gonna be a wipe or horrible run... i PuG every life from lvl 1-20... best way to do it is just Put "iP or will be at end" of Lfm... ppl i guess think "Huh they have to know it or be confident enough to solo, ill join them" then they join...

The quest active timer can serve the same purpose, really, as putting IP in your LFM (as can scrolling over the LFM to see where people are, though I can tell from putting up plenty of groups that most people DON'T do this).

[Nedime]

That's my entire point on the matter. I do not NEED to try it.

Can I use this quote in my signature ?

[Chilldude]

However, recently, I encountered a situation that highlighted to me just how frustrating it must be for a lot of experienced Cleric / FVS players.

Because I was playing an artificer, he expected me to repair him when his health was low.

How do you know he expected you to repair him?

Let me share a personal story of my own. This one time I was on my FVS and this fighter got hit and his health dropped to 50%. I threw a heal on him and went back to owning.

The End

[WruntJunior]

Can I use this quote in my signature ?

Quotes like that make me wish I had enough room in my signature still to have to decide between that and the math quote. >_>

[Loriac]

How do you know he expected you to repair him?

Let me share a personal story of my own. This one time I was on my FVS and this fighter got hit and his health dropped to 50%. I threw a heal on him and went back to owning.

The End

Because he explicitly asked for repairs from me, and stated later on during our discussion that he thought that arcanes and artificers had a duty to use their blue bar on WF melees in the party.

You will note also that I did cast reconstruct on him, and threw scrolls on him (despite the huge heal amp penalty). What I found irritating was the complete lack of understanding on his part that he had a responsibility to make it easier on team members who were healing or repairing him.

[Chilldude]

Descriptions are for what the Leader expects out of the group - don't like it, don't join. If you do join an LFM with ground rules and then blatantly don't adhere to what the LFM leader set as ground rules in the beginning - that is rude.

That's exactly why I don't join BYOH or KNOW IT. Notice nowhere have I ever said "I want to join BYOH but they won't let me!" I merely said I, personally, just me, in my own opinion that I'm entitled to have, personally find BYOH/KNOW IT/NO NOOBS to be rude and needlessly exclusionary so I don't join them.

For some reason even though I'm doing exactly what they want me to do, completely avoiding their parties altogether, they somehow still get bent out of shape about it.

[shajib]

I find it rather silly to put byoh when there is a divine in the party. Healing yourself here and there with pots or even scroll heal if you got the umd is common sense, but watching a team mate die when the divine could have thrown a heal is just stupidity.

[jillie]

For some reason even though I'm doing exactly what they want me to do, completely avoiding their parties altogether, they somehow still get bent out of shape about it.

Avoiding the parties isn't why people get into these "discussions" with you. It's your attitude towards them. Any time the subject comes up, you pop up and accuse those of us who prefer to run BYOH or KnowIt groups as horrid exclusionary people who won't give a helping hand to the new players.

That triggers defensive reactions, for nobody likes to think of themselves as bad people, and everyone's off and running at the mou-- err, keyboard.

[Chilldude]

Because he explicitly asked for repairs from me, and stated later on during our discussion that he thought that arcanes and artificers had a duty to use their blue bar on WF melees in the party.

Listen, honestly, I want you to understand that I'm not trying to antagonize you here. I swear. Yet, I have to ask... why didn't you just say no?

Personally, if I was capable, I'd be more than willing, but I totally understand that's not everyone's bag. I think it's totally unreasonable for someone to expect repairs from an arty, so I think it would have been totally reasonable for you to refuse.

I mean, if I were so inclined, I'd probably even make a game of it. "Sorry bro, all outta scrolls." Then I'd whip out a scroll and repair myself. If he said anything I'd be like, "Oh man, I found one in my bag, it was the last one though." Until I did it again.

[jillie]

I find it rather silly to put byoh when there is a divine in the party. Healing yourself here and there with pots or even scroll heal if you got the umd is common sense, but watching a team mate die when the divine could have thrown a heal is just stupidity.

I often put up BYOH parties on my divines. Why? Not because I'm unwilling to throw a heal or a cure now and again, but because some degree of self-sufficiency makes it possible for me to play my divines as I prefer to play them - usually either as melees or as offensive casters. For me, and for many others, spending a quest watching red bars is boring. If someone's in trouble and either I notice, or they say something, of course I throw some healing love their way - to do otherwise is dumb and slows down the quest, while the whole point of my divine casters using all their tools and not just the healing ones is to speed things up!

[lordic]

I understand your atitude but in certain cases people do resort to posting this in lfm. i see "Know it" Know me" "Know the way to the quest" "Be useful" " Be capable" i remember even seeing " Dont be tarded" before. My main is a 18th life tr toon atm and i have several other trs as well.Most of the time i only group with people i know (friends list, guildies etc) but i do pug at times.I generally try to avoid posting these things in my lfm, but sometimes i just have a really bad expierence with a pugger and i do post these things.I will have to say even in my 18 lives there are still things i do not know but if thats the case i send that pug leader a tell and say "i do not know this,but i can keep myself alive and try to keep up. is that ok?" So if this was done it wold avoid alot of aggravation, and lfm posts like this. I Also play on Orien server and heres the people u can expect to actually "know it" if they post it.
Pele/pezu (matrix) Daddystaxx (matrix)
Flamicia(Over raided) Nixvalli (Over raided)
Footsie(Legend) Nayamashi (Legend)
Chaotar (unguilded)
Kierkan (Just Pike) Boomshaka( Just PIke)
Mitwo (Pheonix Knights)
Massivheals(Blood Bath And Beyond)
Mudhoney (Harmonious Balance)
Most of the people listed here are completionists or close.I supose what im saying is if these players post "know it" its because they actually do and want to grp with others who do also for fastest possible completion times.:)

[eden2760]

I find it rather silly to put byoh when there is a divine in the party. Healing yourself here and there with pots or even scroll heal if you got the umd is common sense, but watching a team mate die when the divine could have thrown a heal is just stupidity.

Unless that teammate is a barb with 200 hp at lvl 20 or something, who decides to run headlong into a group of 20 beholders and then complains about not getting healed.

Hyperbole, but you get the point. I always let players like that die and backpack ride. Why? Because some players think that if you're a divine, your first and foremost purpose is to heal anyone and everyone, regardless of individual capabilities and choices made in a quest.

The type of play of a player who is incapable of doing what they're trying to do (and worse, doesn't think so), and then ends up being a spell point sink, which detracts more from the party than just letting them backpack ride, is exactly the type of person I put up BYOH/Know it to screen out.

[thesnoman]

For some reason even though I'm doing exactly what they want me to do, completely avoiding their parties altogether, they somehow still get bent out of shape about it.

I want you to know that - in game - if you completely avoid any of my LFMs that you don't like the ground rules I set out in the LFM I won't get bent out of shape about it.

I also will gladly accept you to any LFMs you want to join understanding that you adhere to the rules I set out in the LFM.


I also won't get bent out of shape when you express your opinion on these forums. I understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and know that not everyone shares my point of view on the subject of BYOH.

Finally - I will respect your opinion and not try to prove that my opinion is the right one and the only one. I also won't call anyone that doesn't agree with my opinion rude and elitist.

[Derailment]

Do you understand there is no 'rules' field in LFM window?
You only can enter text in 'comment' one :rolleyes:

[eden2760]

You understand there is no 'rules' field in LFM window?
Only one you can enter text is 'comment' one :rolleyes:

...which constitute the rules of the LFM.

Period.

[Derailment]

Of course not.
Leader wishes at most.

[Chilldude]

Can I use this quote in my signature ?

Of course, I can not stop you from doing anything you like. However, I do question why you want to quote me out of context? The actual point of that statement was, "I, like the vast majority of the players in the community, am able to take whatever comes from a public grouping situation and make the most of it."

But you go ahead and quote me out of context if that's makes you feel better.

[thesnoman]

Do you understand there is no 'rules' field in LFM window?
You only can enter text in 'comment' one :rolleyes:

Yes I understand - perhaps I should change "rules" to "expectations I put in the comment window" - but "rules" is so much tidier. :D

[Loriac]

Listen, honestly, I want you to understand that I'm not trying to antagonize you here. I swear. Yet, I have to ask... why didn't you just say no?

Personally, if I was capable, I'd be more than willing, but I totally understand that's not everyone's bag. I think it's totally unreasonable for someone to expect repairs from an arty, so I think it would have been totally reasonable for you to refuse.

I mean, if I were so inclined, I'd probably even make a game of it. "Sorry bro, all outta scrolls." Then I'd whip out a scroll and repair myself. If he said anything I'd be like, "Oh man, I found one in my bag, it was the last one though." Until I did it again.

Lol I probably should have done that scrolls thing.

It was pretty much the first time I'd encountered that situation on my arti in two TR lives, with the implied expectation that I would keep him alive being the key problem for me. If the situation happened with frequency, then I probably would start to say no to be honest, but it caught me off guard.

I think I was more irritated by the lack of out-of-combat healing on his part. If it had been a pure fighter or barb, then I'd have understood, but to not have UMD on a rogue splash is ridiculous.

And the discussion we had, where he took zero responsibility to perform any mitigating actions around his self sufficiency was the final straw. It really opened my eyes to what clerics and FVS often experience. A melee WF with 60% effective positive energy healing is going to rub a lot of divines the wrong way very quickly. He could easily have had 104% pre-ship buffs (HF III + PDK gloves) but instead chose to have 60%. This is almost 'anti-byoh' - its basically joining a group saying 'heal me at additional cost to yourself hjealbot lol'.

[Vint]

ruining someones fun is not necessarily a crime, you know. Some definitions of fun are decidedly evil. So ruining your fun wont keep me from sleeping at night, if your idea of fun annoys me. Just like it goes for you, i doubt that you lose sleep for avoiding things that you find ruin your fun, and ruining mine in the progress. THats life, see.

As long as you do not come to the forums crying how you were belittled and booted from a party. You can do many things that are not crimes, but if you show little respect for others, why would you expect them to respect you back?

Next time someone comes here crying crocodile tears about some bad guy cursing them out, you be sure to tell them "That's life".

[Chilldude]

Finally - I will respect your opinion and not try to prove that my opinion is the right one and the only one. I also won't call anyone that doesn't agree with my opinion rude and elitist.

What if your opinion is that you find a particular behavior to be rude? I mean, it does exist right? There is behavior in this world that you find rude, no? So while you try to demonstrate that I am not justified in my opinion, I will point out you are being sanctimonious.

[eden2760]

Of course, I can not stop you from doing anything you like. However, I do question why you want to quote me out of context? The actual point of that statement was, "I, like the vast majority of the players in the community, am able to take whatever comes from a public grouping situation and make the most of it."

But you go ahead and quote me out of context if that's makes you feel better.

And that's the difference between you and BYOHers. Not trying to be ugly here, but that's the difference. You are willing to make any group work, no matter the makeup or collection.

I am not. I'm concerned with xp/min, and the probability of completing the quest at all. Your way is fun to you. My way is fun to me. There are others that agree with you, join them. There are others that agree with me, I look for them to join my group.

I don't understand why you think it's rude that we don't try to forcibly mix the oil and water of the two separate viewpoints.

[bartharok]

As long as you do not come to the forums crying how you were belittled and booted from a party. You can do many things that are not crimes, but if you show little respect for others, why would you expect them to respect you back?

Next time someone comes here crying crocodile tears about some bad guy cursing them out, you be sure to tell them "That's life".

Thats life, Vint.

[Derailment]

Yes I understand - perhaps I should change "rules" to "expectations I put in the comment window" - but "rules" is so much tidier. :D

**** you kind Thelanis people, killed my sneaky troll attempt.

[WruntJunior]

**** you kind Thelanis people, killed my sneaky troll attempt.

That's the thing about Thelanis...we're all sunshine and rainbows and happiness over here.

Edit: Sad thing is, reading over my post after I posted it (I'm dyslexic and I type faster than I think, so I often have to do this to clarify and correct my posts), I realized this isn't even really a joke - it's largely the truth. Thelanis IS a server full of sunshine and rainbows.

[Chilldude]

And that's the difference between you and BYOHers. Not trying to be ugly here, but that's the difference. You are willing to make any group work, no matter the makeup or collection.

I am not. I'm concerned with xp/min, and the probability of completing the quest at all. Your way is fun to you. My way is fun to me. There are others that agree with you, join them. There are others that agree with me, I look for them to join my group.

I don't understand why you think it's rude that we don't try to forcibly mix the oil and water of the two separate viewpoints.

I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything. I'm just pointing out that your whole, "But taking whatever I get from a public grouping situation and making it work isn't fun for me. To me, fun is only running with strongs!", isn't really a valid argument for differing play styles, in my opinion, of course.

See, to me, the whole, "that isn't fun for me" doesn't wash. I don't put "All Welcome" because it's fun for me to watch some new player charge headlong into their own demise, time and again. I do it because it's part of the game. I do it because it IS a game. A social game. I was once that noob, you were once that noob, everyone was once that noob. I'm sure there were times I did something that caused someone, somewhere in the world to sit back in their chair and let out a frustrated sigh, perhaps you don't think you have?

[eden2760]

I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything. I'm just pointing out that your whole, "But taking whatever I get from a public grouping situation and making it work isn't fun for me. To me, fun is only running with strongs!", isn't really a valid argument for differing play styles, in my opinion, of course.

See, to me, the whole, "that isn't fun for me" doesn't wash. I don't put "All Welcome" because it's fun for me to watch some new player charge headlong into their own demise, time and again. I do it because it's part of the game. I do it because it IS a game. A social game. I was once that noob, you were once that noob, everyone was once that noob. I'm sure there were times I did something that caused someone, somewhere in the world to sit back in their chair and let out a frustrated sigh, perhaps you don't think you have?

... so it's my responsiblity to teach players as I was taught?

...oh wait... I used ddowiki, and google, and forums.ddo.com, and asked guildies, and joined helpful channels, and started out running normal instead of crying when I couldn't jump headlong into elite out of korthos on my first life, rather than join every quest that was *clearly* beyond my level of play, and cry when the leader didn't drop everything and pick my stone up 100x?

Got it!

Like it or not, there is an unspoken stratification of parties. Different levels of play for different people. They are not all the same. Thinking or expecting that they are is naive at best.

[Chilldude]

... so it's my responsiblity to teach players as I was taught?

There's a lot of ground between actively teaching someone how to play and insisting that they not join your party.

[WruntJunior]

... so it's my responsiblity to teach players as I was taught?

...oh wait... I used ddowiki, and google, and forums.ddo.com, and asked guildies, and joined helpful channels, rather than join every quest that was *clearly* beyond my level of play, and cry when the leader didn't drop everything and pick my stone up 100x?

Got it!

Like it or not, there is an unspoken stratification of parties. Different levels of play for different people. They are not all the same. Thinking or expecting that they are is naive at best.

If I had a dollar for every quest where I joined hoping the leader would teach me...I'd have ~$3, and only because I asked the leaders first (and usually for recent raids - specifically, I remember this with CitW and ToD, and FoT will soon be added to that). I'm more than willing to say I've only run something once or twice, or that I haven't run it in a while, if that's true...but I don't expect to have my hand held through the group - I at least parse quickly through DDO Wiki. >_> Funny thing is, I'm not even talking about "Know It" LFMs here...I'm talking about any non-"Learning Run" LFM.

[eden2760]

There's a lot of ground between actively teaching someone how to play and insisting that they not join your party.

See... no there isn't.

It's my party (and I'll cry if I want to), so it will go how I want it to. I'm pretty easygoing as long as you know your role and can keep up. If you're going to join and not abide by my rules (because you *can't*), fine. Someone else can and will.

[eden2760]

If I had a dollar for every quest where I joined hoping the leader would teach me...I'd have ~$3, and only because I asked the leaders first (and usually for recent raids - specifically, I remember this with CitW and ToD, and FoT will soon be added to that). I'm more than willing to say I've only run something once or twice, or that I haven't run it in a while, if that's true...but I don't expect to have my hand held through the group - I at least parse quickly through DDO Wiki. >_> Funny thing is, I'm not even talking about "Know It" LFMs here...I'm talking about any non-"Learning Run" LFM.

Agreed. I won't really join pugs that say know it, if I'm not very familiar with the quest. If it doesn't say that and I join and happen to be a bit rusty from not running it for a few lives or w/e, then I'll mention that as soon as I get in, and like you said, wouldn't expect a nanny from the getgo as a result.

[Derailment]

I think party leader have too much power in DDO.

We need more democracy and votekick systems.

[Systern]

Logic?

Tell ya what, let's clear this up right here and now... does BYOH mean Bring Your Own Heals, as in you are entirely responsible for your own red bar? Because if that's not what it means, then yes, I have the wrong impression of BYOH. If BYOH merely means you can expect others to heal you, but you should also have some pots with you just in case, well, if it means that, then I've been totally incorrect about it for a very long time.

So tell ya what... you get all your BYOH buddies to agree that BYOH merely means you can expect to be healed by others but you should have some pots just in case, and I'll agree that it isn't a rude and needlessly exclusionary LFM restriction.

Entirely? It's not that absolute. How about "Ultimately responsible". Your red bar is yours. If you don't even want to be responsible for it, it's rather brazen to expect anyone else in the rest of the party to want to be responsible for it either. It's more "help me help you" than "you're on your own" typically.

(as an aside, each time BYOH comes up in a thread, you always come off as "black or white. BYOH IS BLACK!" and the vast majority or BYOHers seem to be saying "no dude, grey."
"PITCH BLACK!!!"
"really dude, try it, you'll see it's more grey."
"BLACK AS MY SOOOUULLLLLLL!!!!"
"Lighten up, Francis.... to grey."
)

[thesnoman]

So while you try to demonstrate that I am not justified in my opinion, I will point out you are being sanctimonious.

Please point out what you'd like to point out.

My intentions were to demonstrate that DDO is a GAME that is meant to be FUN - It does not make sense to take offense to LFM comments or find what people put in the comments dialog in the LFM window rude or elitist - it doesn't make for an enjoyable game experience while simply ignoring it or skipping over the LFMs with comments you don't like, (as you say you do), is much more enjoyable.

I will never call those people whose opinions I don't agree with rude or elitist - all name-calling does is feed an unending "discussion" where no one can win since each person is entitled to their own opinion and really has no right to force said opinion onto others that do not agree with it.

[WruntJunior]

Entirely? It's not that absolute. How about "Ultimately responsible". Your red bar is yours. If you don't even want to be responsible for it, it's rather brazen to expect anyone else in the rest of the party to want to be responsible for it either. It's more "help me help you" than "you're on your own" typically.

(as an aside, each time BYOH comes up in a thread, you always come off as "black or white. BYOH IS BLACK!" and the vast majority or BYOHers seem to be saying "no dude, grey."
"PITCH BLACK!!!"
"really dude, try it, you'll see it's more grey."
"BLACK AS MY SOOOUULLLLLLL!!!!"
"Lighten up, Francis.... to grey."
)

I'm saddened that I have but no rep to give for awesome posts. Servers being down for so long has cleaned me out of positive rep to spread. :(

[eden2760]

I think party leader have too much power in DDO.

We need more democracy and votekick systems.

Too much power? :p it's *their* party. You're under absolutely no obligation to join their group WHATSOEVER.

If you find their attitude is not to your liking? Recall and drop group.

If you are concerned about your philosophy being upheld in a group, then make your own, and boot anyone who refuses to comply with your ROEs. They'll get over it and find another group (or won't, and DDO will be a much cleaner place :p)

This is the entire thing I don't get about this entire thread. A BYOHer's actions don't affect you any more than you let them (by joining their group). if you don't agree with them, then steer clear and don't be affected by them. It's. That. Simple.

[mobrien316]

While you claim to know what it means, people who regularly participate in it tell you that you have the wrong view of it, and you shout them down saying they have no idea what they're talking about...and you precede to tell people what groups (like BYOH groups, especially - you seem to have a special distaste for them, as I have observed from how commonly you speak against them) like those are always like, and still claim to have neither joined them nor ever intend to join them. What you're doing is a disingenuous assertation of a falsehood without accepting the possibility of you being incorrect, and denying evidence to the contrary.

Well said.

However, he believes he knows what BYOH means and that people who actually join BYOH parties and post BYOH LFM's don't. His Aura of Illogic is tremendously strong and can't be dispelled.

He also seems to be under the impression that there is a single (Chilldude-defined) definition of BYOH (despite his admission that he has NEVER been in a BYOH group) and a single (Chilldude-defined) definition of "know it", despite the fact that there is more than one person playing this game and any logical person would be able to recognize that different people mean different things when they post BYOH or "know it."

That was, BTW, my entire reason for posting the BYOH post linked in my signature. So that when my cleric posts BYOH groups, people know what he means, since different people have different ideas of BYOH. I've been in BYOH parties where the cleric will steadfastly refuse to even activate his aura, and I've been in BYOH groups where rogues will cheerfully scroll heal everyone because it means a successful completion. So explaining what I mean when I post "BYOH" makes perfect sense.

Except to players who keep their Aura of Illogic maximized and empowered all the time...

[Chilldude]

Entirely? It's not that absolute. How about "Ultimately responsible". Your red bar is yours.

It's absolute. I'm sure from time to time there's someone to throw around some positive energy, but the point of BYOH is that you can NOT expect anyone to heal you but yourself. You can try to downplay it all you want, but we all know, there are dozens if not hundreds of people that will immediately disagree if you suggest that people should join BYOH and expect others to heal them.

I brought my stack of pots, where's all the heals!?

[thesiuscadol]

I post BYOH because im not a healer. Usally bring a hire for myself.
Free Cookies (pre cookie jar) just to peek intrest
Know it (usally implies I dont)

Rule 1: All that said ITS A GAME HAVE FUN!
Rule 2: When in doubt see rule 1.

A poor carpenter blames his tools.

A poor leader blames the group....

You were there to if it looks like it will be bad first try to explain.
If player gets rude /ignore
Drop group and post your own or another and run it again.

[Derailment]

Too much power? :p it's *their* party. You're under absolutely no obligation to join their group WHATSOEVER.

This is exactly what I don't like.

At current point DDO doesn't need party 'leadership', or party 'owner'.
It only need some match-making system.

[Chilldude]

Well said.

However, he believes he knows what BYOH means and that people who actually join BYOH parties and post BYOH LFM's don't. His Aura of Illogic is tremendously strong and can't be dispelled.

He also seems to be under the impression that there is a single (Chilldude-defined) definition of BYOH (despite his admission that he has NEVER been in a BYOH group) and a single (Chilldude-defined) definition of "know it", despite the fact that there is more than one person playing this game and any logical person would be able to recognize that different people mean different things when they post BYOH or "know it."


Yep, call me crazy, I take people at their word and am gullible enough to believe that BYOH means BYOH and KNOW IT means KNOW IT.

[Vint]

Thats life, Vint.

I'd +1 you, but I need to spread it around more.

I hope the servers do not come back up today as I am making a ton of forum friends today:)

[eden2760]

It's absolute. I'm sure from time to time there's someone to throw around some positive energy, but the point of BYOH is that you can NOT expect anyone to heal you but yourself. You can try to downplay it all you want, but we all know, there are dozens if not hundreds of people that will immediately disagree if you suggest that people should join BYOH and expect others to heal them.

I brought my stack of pots, where's all the heals!?

That's your fallacy.

If you've had some bad experiences with BYOH groups, I'm sorry (oh wait, you've had NO experience with BYOH groups by your admission).

A divine that outright refuses to heal for any reason whatsoever, even at the cost of quest failure? Yah... that level of extremism is idiotic. I'll toss occasional heals, but I'm not going to babysit.

That's the reason for the screening: trying to raise the probability that the people who join will only need occasional assistance with their red bars/debuff clearing/etc., versus the constant supervision required by the completely inexperienced.

[eden2760]

This is exactly what I don't like.

At current point DDO doesn't need party 'leadership', or party 'owner'.
It only need some match-making system.

You're talking about not choosing who you get to party with.

Oh you want to party with guildies? Sorry... the matchmaking system won't let you.

Oh you don't want to party with the guy who insists on mouth-breathing over hands-free for the entire quest? Sorry, the matchmaking system has spoken!

Your entire reason for posting, if I may be so bold, is that you don't like the fact that party members *can* exclude. It's "unfair", am I right?

[Chilldude]

That's your fallacy.



So just where can I expect to get heals from when joining a BYOH? I mean, not all BYOH groups are lead by lazy divines. In fact, most of the ones I see are made up of WF arcanes. So say some dude is on his fighter, he's got a stack of 100 Cure Serious pots, he joins a BYOH full of WF arcanes. You're telling me that he shouldn't expect to be ENTIRELY responsible for his own heals?

THAT'S my fallacy right?

[mobrien316]

Yep, call me crazy, I take people at their word and am gullible enough to believe that BYOH means BYOH and KNOW IT means KNOW IT.

But you don't just believe that BYOH means "bring your own heals", you also believe it means, "and I will stand there and watch you die without lifting a finger to help you", which it absolutely does not.

Bring your own heals means bring your own heals. Carry pots and wands and be able to remove disease, poison, curses, etc... For many or even most people, it does not mean that you won't receive help if you need it.

If you ever joined BYOH groups or had any experience whatsoever upon which to base your opinion, you would already know this.

[eden2760]

So just where can I expect to get heals from when joining a BYOH? I mean, not all BYOH groups are lead by lazy divines. In fact, most of the ones I see are made up of WF arcanes. So say some dude is on his fighter, he's got a stack of 100 Cure Serious pots, he joins a BYOH full of WF arcanes. You're telling me that he shouldn't expect to be ENTIRELY responsible for his own heals?

THAT'S my fallacy right?

"SO where can I expect to get heals from...."

There you go. This gets into the realm of builds and self-sufficiency a bit so I'll try not to derail too much, but if you have a build that *needs* heals and you are not self-sufficient, then why would you join a BYOH?

That'd be like an alcoholic going to a wine-tasting event.

Why do you insist on forcing the issue? I really don't understand. :p


"...led by lazy divines..."

There you go again. If I divine isn't babysitting you first and foremost, they're lazy.

Yah... that's it. No other possibility whatsoever, like you make a build that has any self-sufficiency in any capacity whatsoever. Especially not when there are NUMEROUS mechanisms for adding this in some capacity that doesn't require multiple TRs, high-level gear, etc.

I'd say YOU'RE the lazy one for refusing to make a build that can take care of itself in any capacity whatsoever.

[Chilldude]

What if a BYOH party is indeed lead by a lazy divine? Can you then EXPECT to get heals? I mean, you either have to take entire responsibility for your health bar, or you expect to get heals from others. You're saying that I'm wrong when I say someone has to take entire responsibility for their health bar in a BYOH, so can you explain where and when I can expect to get heals?

[Purgatory]

The quest active timer can serve the same purpose, really, as putting IP in your LFM (as can scrolling over the LFM to see where people are, though I can tell from putting up plenty of groups that most people DON'T do this).

I always love the

"Have you started yet" while the whole party is in the quest showing the location of every single party member in the lfm.

This always = decline as my lfm are clearly not noob friendly

Elite, IP, FAST, BYOHealing, know it, not hand holding or noob friendly.


Or better yet after they join and they can obviously see HP and SP going up and down for eveyone and they go..


Have you started yet?

I usualy say nope we are all fighting the dumy on the ship, could you help us? its fighting back.


and then boot


People can call me what ever they want to call me. I dont care about them what so ever so could care less what they think about me either. I already dont like them at that point so I realy dont care if they dont like me from the point on either.

I would prefer they added me to there squelch list so it save me the trouble of having to deal with them again later.

I do not owe anybody anything in this game and nobody owes me anything

[Chilldude]

But you don't just believe that BYOH means "bring your own heals", you also believe it means, "and I will stand there and watch you die without lifting a finger to help you", which it absolutely does not.

Bring your own heals means bring your own heals. Carry pots and wands and be able to remove disease, poison, curses, etc... For many or even most people, it does not mean that you won't receive help if you need it.

If you ever joined BYOH groups or had any experience whatsoever upon which to base your opinion, you would already know this.

Great, so it should be easy for you to answer my question then. Who am I supposed to expect heals from when I join an all WF arcane party on my human fighter?

[eden2760]

What if a BYOH party is indeed lead by a lazy divine? Can you then EXPECT to get heals? I mean, you either have to take entire responsibility for your health bar, or you expect to get heals from others. You're saying that I'm wrong when I say someone has to take entire responsibility for their health bar in a BYOH, so can you explain where and when I can expect to get heals?

Wow... you're beating a dead horse man. That's the difference, again, between you and the people that post these.

You expect to get (and clearly need) heals. They don't expect to give or recieve healing on a full-time basis.

Quit. Trying. To. Force. The. Issue.

Just don't group with them, because your play/build style of NOT being self-sufficient is incompatible with that type of party, period. It's that simple man. :p


Great, so it should be easy for you to answer my question then. Who am I supposed to expect heals from when I join an all WF arcane party on my human fighter?


That phrase you keep using "expect to get heals" is a dead give away. Let me ask you... if you see a BYOH with five WF arcanes, and you play a fighter that needs a frequent amount of incoming healing to augment your pots...

.... why would you join the party? Further, why would you get disgruntled that you are not a good fit for the party?

Bottom line: you're not *entitled* to join every party regardless of its makeup. But you think you are, clearly.

You're a square peg. Some parties have room for a square peg, but some only have round holes. Figure it out.

[Chilldude]

People can call me what ever they want to call me. I dont care about them what so ever so could care less what they think about me either. I already dont like them at that point so I realy dont care if they dont like me from the point on either.

I would prefer they added me to there squelch list so it save me the trouble of having to deal with them again later.

I do not owe anybody anything in this game and nobody owes me anything

I think you just might be able to help us out with a little question we need answered. When someone joins a BYOH are they entirely responsible for their own healing?

[Deathdefy]

I mean, you either have to take entire responsibility for your health bar, or you expect to get heals from others.

Shades of grey.

Sure, at the end of the day it's your responsibility, but most of the time people will chip in if you're low or quaffing pots if they can do better. Honestly, you should just join one or two. It's a much nicer scene than you seem to think!

[Vint]

So just where can I expect to get heals from when joining a BYOH? I mean, not all BYOH groups are lead by lazy divines.

It is not lazy. I came to the realization that my fs blades are more effective then dropping heals on a non sufficent, non fort wearing mana sponge.

[Chilldude]

Wow... you're beating a dead horse man. That's the difference, again, between you and the people that post these.

You expect to get (and clearly need) heals. They don't expect to give or recieve healing on a full-time basis.

Quit. Trying. To. Force. The. Issue.

Just don't group with them, because your play/build style of NOT being self-sufficient is incompatible with that type of party, period. It's that simple man. :p

Nope, sorry didn't work. I wish I could say nice try, but it was really weak. As I've already stated, I'm extremely self sufficient. I do not expect to get heals from anyone. However, you keep insisting that BYOH doesn't mean you are entirely responsible for your own heals. So I'd like you to explain when and from whom a person joining a BYOH can expect heals from others?

[Purgatory]

This is exactly what I don't like.

At current point DDO doesn't need party 'leadership', or party 'owner'.
It only need some match-making system.

IF you were not such a pile on then you would understand why others dont want to group with you. And you would not need a system that would force others to group with you where as if they had a choice they would not.


You obviously think people owe you something.

Sorry to tell you they do not owe you anything at all.

[Chilldude]

It is not lazy. I came to the realization that my fs blades are more effective then dropping heals on a non sufficent, non fort wearing mana sponge.

Let's ask Vint where he stands on the issue.

Should I expect to take full responsibility for my own heals when joining your BYOH? =D

[thesnoman]

So just where can I expect to get heals from when joining a BYOH? I mean, not all BYOH groups are lead by lazy divines. In fact, most of the ones I see are made up of WF arcanes. So say some dude is on his fighter, he's got a stack of 100 Cure Serious pots, he joins a BYOH full of WF arcanes. You're telling me that he shouldn't expect to be ENTIRELY responsible for his own heals?

THAT'S my fallacy right?

So you're saying that you don't join BYOH Groups, but you're curious enough to notice that most are led by WF Arcanes?

I call shenanigans!

See - when I play I see BYOH PuGs that are led by many different types of toons - Some divines, some WF arcanes, some fleshie arcanes (which I assume are PMs), some barbs toting a hireling, some rangers, many multi-class - the list goes on and on. That's why a few pages back I mentioned that party makeup has a lot to do with what is expected from a BYOH PuG and the best way to know what is expected is to ASK THE PARTY LEADER if you're not sure.

See - BYOH means lots of things to lots of people. It's not, as was mentioned before, Black and White.

[eden2760]

Nope, sorry didn't work. I wish I could say nice try, but it was really weak. As I've already stated, I'm extremely self sufficient. I do not expect to get heals from anyone. However, you keep insisting that BYOH doesn't mean you are entirely responsible for your own heals. So I'd like you to explain when and from whom a person joining a BYOH can expect heals from others?

I will explain that...

...as soon as you explain why a person expecting to receive heals from others, would join a BYOH.

[Vint]

Let's ask Vint where he stands on the issue.

Should I expect to take full responsibility for my own heals when joining your BYOH? =D

Yes

My name is Flabby and I approve of this message

[Chilldude]

See - BYOH means lots of things to lots of people. It's not, as was mentioned before, Black and White.

See, it is pretty black and white. Vint and Purg don't really want to comment because they know it would prove my point, but I'm pretty sure if you joined their group and weren't 100% capable of healing yourself, they probably wouldn't invite you back a second time.

---edit---

Correction, Vint has responded, and he has concurred, as far as he is concerned you'd better be able to take full responsibility for your own healing in BYOH.

[Derailment]

IF you were not such a pile on then you would understand why others dont want to group with you. And you would not need a system that would force others to group with you where as if they had a choice they would not.

You obviously think people owe you something.

Sorry to tell you they do not owe you anything at all.

This was extreme rude, but ridiculous as well.

I see that I pushed at the right spot.

[eden2760]

See, it is pretty black and white. Vint and Purg don't really want to comment because they know it would prove my point, but I'm pretty sure if you joined their group and weren't 100% capable of healing yourself, they probably wouldn't invite you back a second time.

Now this is really going to test your boundaries so make sure you're sitting down....


.... can you not send a tell to the leader something like:

"I'm mostly self-sufficient but may need a top-off every now and then. Do you mind me joining?".

It takes the grey out of it. You know exactly where they stand on the issue before you join or don't join.

Dat dere communication!

[Chilldude]

I don't think too many BYOH regulars want to see the line blurred with shades of gray.

[Deathdefy]

I don't think too many BYOH regulars want to see the line blurred with shades of gray.

I think everyone agrees you should join with the capacity to heal yourself. That you can't at the same time expect others to help out sometimes is where I think your misunderstanding is.

[Chilldude]

Now this is really going to test your boundaries so make sure you're sitting down....


.... can you not send a tell to the leader something like:

"I'm mostly self-sufficient but may need a top-off every now and then. Do you mind me joining?".

It takes the grey out of it. You know exactly where they stand on the issue before you join or don't join.

Dat dere communication!

How many times do you need me to tell you that I've never even tried to join a BYOH? I've never given Vint or Purg any problems. They throw up BYOH, I go the other direction. I find it rude, they don't care what I think of them. Everyone is happy. Yet, you want your cake and eat it too. You want to play BYOH but you want a Nobel Prize for your humanitarianism.

[shajib]

I often put up BYOH parties on my divines. Why? Not because I'm unwilling to throw a heal or a cure now and again, but because some degree of self-sufficiency makes it possible for me to play my divines as I prefer to play them - usually either as melees or as offensive casters. For me, and for many others, spending a quest watching red bars is boring. If someone's in trouble and either I notice, or they say something, of course I throw some healing love their way - to do otherwise is dumb and slows down the quest, while the whole point of my divine casters using all their tools and not just the healing ones is to speed things up!

You are missing the entire point. Nobody is asking the divine to be a heal bot, that is just a silly boring built. People are expected to bring their own pots and scrolls for byoh parties.

However, my point is, during a battle if the divine is close by the other party member, and for numerous reasons the other guy was slammed by a mob and dying, if the divine cant be bothered to just throw a heal or 2 to that player, then yes that divine should just got suck a stick.

[Rasczak]

Is this situation now common practice?

Know It!

[Purgatory]

I don't think too many BYOH regulars want to see the line blurred with shades of gray.

you are right

BYOH mean BYOH

IF you die becuase you didnt BYOH
or pikeing becuase you didnt BYOH

= boot after quest is done.

No ifs, ands, or butts about it.
No exucuses. I dont want to hear about it. realy i dont care what your excuse is ever.

I ecpect people to be able to heal themselfs 100% of the time, for an effective amount for that level range regardless of class/build

If you cant dont join, save us the pain of having to /squelch eachother.


But pile ons are pileons and always looking for there 1 free completion

And im fine with that they get there 1 freee completion and my squelch list gets longer.

[Chilldude]

I think everyone agrees you should join with the capacity to heal yourself. That you can't at the same time expect others to help out sometimes is where I think your misunderstanding is.

There's no misunderstanding. You have to expect to heal yourself 100%. IF... if... if someone should ever decide to toss a heal your way, that's just a bonus.

[eden2760]

How many times do you need me to tell you that I've never even tried to join a BYOH? I've never given Vint or Purg any problems. They throw up BYOH, I go the other direction. I find it rude, they don't care what I think of them. Everyone is happy. Yet, you want your cake and eat it too. You want to play BYOH but you want a Nobel Prize for your humanitarianism.

See... you clearly don't know me. THe last thing anyone who knows me would describe me as is a humanitarian :p

Look it's this simple:

I can't speak for everyone. Everyone means their own thing when posting. But when I post Know it, BYOH, etc. I expect that anyone who joins DOESN'T need a thing from me, and they know I don't need a thing from them.

To me BYOH lfms are all about one thing: Corporate soloing. :D

[Chilldude]

you are right

BYOH mean BYOH

IF you die becuase you didnt BYOH
or pikeing becuase you didnt BYOH

= boot after quest is done.

No ifs, ands, or butts about it.
No exucuses. I dont want to hear about it. realy i dont care what your excuse is ever.

I ecpect people to be able to heal themselfs 100% for a effective amount regardless of class/build

If you cant dont join, save us the pain of having to /squelch eachother.


But pile ons are pileons and always looking for there 1 free completion

And im fine with that they get there 1 freee completion and my squelch list gets longer.

I hate to you all I told you so! Nah, actually I love it. Thanks for the clarification Purg.

[Vint]

How many times do you need me to tell you that I've never even tried to join a BYOH? I've never given Vint or Purg any problems. They throw up BYOH, I go the other direction. I find it rude, they don't care what I think of them. Everyone is happy. Yet, you want your cake and eat it too. You want to play BYOH but you want a Nobel Prize for your humanitarianism.

I do appreciate that you think of me. I also will not flame you for playing the way that brings you fun. I wish more people were like you and can be honest with themselves and not come and ruin my fun.

[eden2760]

....
And im fine with that they get there 1 freee completion and my squelch list gets longer.

Lucky!

My squelch list is full. I now resort to friends list with helpful notes. :d

[thesnoman]

See, it is pretty black and white. Vint and Purg don't really want to comment because they know it would prove my point, but I'm pretty sure if you joined their group and weren't 100% capable of healing yourself, they probably wouldn't invite you back a second time.

---edit---

Correction, Vint has responded, and he has concurred, as far as he is concerned you'd better be able to take full responsibility for your own healing in BYOH.

Yes - Vint has owned that he expects that you are 100% Responsible for your red bar and because it has proved your point that it is 100% Black and White you pointed it out. You only see what you want to see and THAT is your flaw.

You can't see that others do not agree with Vint - you can't understand that there are shades of gray and that two posters out of the group that has contributed to this thread do not constitute the majority.

You also obviously can't be bothered to /tell a party leader in game to ask what is expected of their BYOH PuG. I think if you did you'd find many more shades of gray than blacks and whites.

[Chilldude]

See... you clearly don't know me. THe last thing anyone who knows me would describe me as is a humanitarian :p

Look it's this simple:

I can't speak for everyone. Everyone means their own thing when posting. But when I post Know it, BYOH, etc. I expect that anyone who joins DOESN'T need a thing from me, and they know I don't need a thing from them.

To me BYOH lfms are all about one thing: Corporate soloing. :D

Then why did you spend the last hour trying to convince me otherwise only to totally flip flop on your position once BYOHers with authority stepped up and made it very clear that they truly mean BYOH when they say BYOH?

[eden2760]

Then why did you spend the last hour trying to convince me otherwise only to totally flip flop on your position once BYOHers with authority stepped up and made it very clear that they truly mean BYOH when they say BYOH?

Quotes please.

How did I flip on my position? Don't take my words out of context... let's see the quotes! :D

And for the record I don't care about your position. You're not on my server, and if you were you'd be in my squelch list.

I just don't like the way you look at all of us who are capable of running groups like this. Wheat and chaff, my friend. Wheat and chaff.

[Deathdefy]

There's no misunderstanding. You have to expect to heal yourself 100%. IF... if... if someone should ever decide to toss a heal your way, that's just a bonus.

Nope. The vast majority of the time (again, literally always in my experience without any exaggeration and I host and pug BYOH a lot) people do throw heals your way if they see you trying and if they have superior healing.

So you can expect that to occur.

I appreciate that you couldn't know that. I don't know what more to say beyond join one sometime before judging the players involved.

You still should have the capacity to heal yourself if need be though. Even if you are a level 14 pure barbarian who will need to stay back and quaff 83 consecutive CSW pots.

[shajib]

you are right

BYOH mean BYOH

IF you die becuase you didnt BYOH
or pikeing becuase you didnt BYOH

= boot after quest is done.

No ifs, ands, or butts about it.
No exucuses. I dont want to hear about it. realy i dont care what your excuse is ever.

I ecpect people to be able to heal themselfs 100% of the time, for an effective amount for that level range regardless of class/build

If you cant dont join, save us the pain of having to /squelch eachother.


But pile ons are pileons and always looking for there 1 free completion

And im fine with that they get there 1 freee completion and my squelch list gets longer.

I've played with clowns like you before, always thinking they know everything, but get their azz handed to them eventually, then give excuses like lag etc b/s. I rather solo or take a new player and teach him how to play, then take a clown like you in my party.

[Chilldude]

Yes - Vint has owned that he expects that you are 100% Responsible for your red bar and because it has proved your point that it is 100% Black and White you pointed it out. You only see what you want to see and THAT is your flaw.

You can't see that others do not agree with Vint - you can't understand that there are shades of gray and that two posters out of the group that has contributed to this thread do not constitute the majority.

You also obviously can't be bothered to /tell a party leader in game to ask what is expected of their BYOH PuG. I think if you did you'd find many more shades of gray than blacks and whites.

I know what to expect from BYOH. It's pretty clear. It's pretty black and white. You can say that when you say it you don't really mean it, but most people definitely mean it when they say it. You can quote me on that.

[Purgatory]

This was extreme rude, but ridiculous as well.

I see that I pushed at the right spot.

Its not rude to speak the truth in my book.

If you are offended by the truth that is your problem not mine.

[Chilldude]

I've played with clowns like you before, always thinking they know everything, but get their azz handed to them eventually, then give excuses like lag etc b/s. I rather take a new player and teach him how to play, then take a clown like you in my party.

Man, why'd you have to go there, I had this... =/

OK, guys, I see your point.

----------------------------------

/thread
Chill out.

[Purgatory]

I've played with clowns like you before, always thinking they know everything, but get their azz handed to them eventually, then give excuses like lag etc b/s. I rather solo or take a new player and teach him how to play, then take a clown like you in my party.

first off you have to know something to teach something...


and the feeling is mutal.

i do not want idiots in my groups, so lets not group together shall we.

[shajib]

Its not rude to speak the truth in my book.

If you are offended by the truth that is your problem not mine.

The fact of the matter is nobody really cares what you think because people who thinks like you constitute an extremely small population, making your views insignificant.

Instead of shaking your high horse azz in the forums, you should just yoursedo lf a favor and grab your pompous azz out of the forum. After all you do not care what other people thinks so why even bother to comment in the forum.

[shajib]

first off you have to know something to teach something...


and the feeling is mutal.

i do not want idiots in my groups, so lets not group together shall we.

Dont worry unlike you having a single completionist toon, i have many more. I do not need a ddo lesson by you. You cannot even make a triple crown. What a noob.

PS- You do not have to post your achievement below and think you are some kind of hotshot. You are just another wannabe, who has a crappy attitude towards other people.

[Purgatory]

Dont worry unlike you having a single completionist toon, i have many more. I do not need a ddo lesson by you. You cannot even make a triple crown. What a noob.

LMAO you see my sig and assume i Have one toon...

LMAO


Well let me see

I have Ace - 22 past lifes

FVS - 4 past life

Wiz - 4 past lifes

Drunk - 3 past lifes

Arty - 9 past lifes (still 4 more to go)

various other 2nd lifers

probly have a total of 50 past lifes

My epen is much bigger then yours, much much bigger

Edit: only becuase you wanted to measure epens

[thesiuscadol]

this degenerated quickly...

[WruntJunior]

you are right

BYOH mean BYOH

IF you die becuase you didnt BYOH
or pikeing becuase you didnt BYOH

= boot after quest is done.

No ifs, ands, or butts about it.
No exucuses. I dont want to hear about it. realy i dont care what your excuse is ever.

I ecpect people to be able to heal themselfs 100% of the time, for an effective amount for that level range regardless of class/build

If you cant dont join, save us the pain of having to /squelch eachother.


But pile ons are pileons and always looking for there 1 free completion

And im fine with that they get there 1 freee completion and my squelch list gets longer.

I don't like having to squelch more people in game...requires removing someone from my squelch list first, which is annoying. :P

[eden2760]

Finally, the reason I'd never even think of joining a BYOH in a million bazillion years, the reason I find it outright selfish far exceeding self serving, is that BYOH is absolutely and completely, needlessly exclusionary and the community suffers as a whole because of it.

Taken from another post, but it seemed relative here, for getting back on track! ;)

Your fundamental lack of understanding about the nature of MMOs and the world in general is kind of sad, actually. The world IS exclusionary. In all things both games and life, people are at different skill levels with different skill sets.

With that said, I bet you'd get rid of raiding guilds as who provide applications and have entry requirements as well. They're extremely exclusionary. If you didn't have a capped toon, you wouldn't join or try to join a guild that raids 5x a week mandatory.

Are they rude for existing? How is this any different? :P

[Purgatory]

The fact of the matter is nobody really cares what you think because people who thinks like you constitute an extremely small population, making your views insignificant.

Instead of shaking your high horse azz in the forums, you should just yoursedo lf a favor and grab your pompous azz out of the forum. After all you do not care what other people thinks so why even bother to comment in the forum.

This comming from the person that needs TURBINE to force other players to group with him because no one wants to group with them when given the choice...

[shajib]

LMAO you see my sig and assume i Have one toon...

LMAO


Well let me see

I have Ace - 22 past lifes

FVS - 4 past life

Wiz - 4 past lifes

Drunk - 3 past lifes

Arty - 9 past lifes (still 4 more to go)

various other 2nd lifers

probly have a total of 50 past lifes

My epen is much bigger then yours, much much bigger

Edit: only becuase you wanted to measure epens


I have 3 triple crown toons and 2 single crown toons. Just 2 of my toons is enough to beat the total number of your entire account.

Thats all?

Nope, got 4 raider toons with full eds ready to run.

Like i said, i do not need a lecture by a repugnant piece of trash like yourself.

[Purgatory]

I don't like having to squelch more people in game...requires removing someone from my squelch list first, which is annoying. :P

I know that why i try to get them to squelch me.


Saves me alot of time and effort.

[shajib]

This comming from the person that needs TURBINE to force other players to group with him because no one wants to group with them when given the choice...

When did i say i need turbine to force people to join my party? Not surprising coming form a ****** like yourself.

[eden2760]

I know that why i try to get them to squelch me.


Saves me alot of time and effort.

Why didn't I think of this... brilliant! :)

[Purgatory]

I have 3 triple crown toons and 2 single crown toons. Just 2 of my toons is enough to beat the total number of your entire account.

Thats all?

Nope, got 4 raider toons with full eds ready to run.

Like i said, i do not need a lecture by a repugnant piece of trash like yourself.



all my toons can be looked and actualy excist (in the DDO game world).

And im not affraid to post there names, Where yours do not excist and clearly afraid to stand behind them.

[WruntJunior]

I have 3 triple crown toons and 2 single crown toons. Just 2 of my toons is enough to beat the total number of your entire account.

Thats all?

Nope, got 4 raider toons with full eds ready to run.

Like i said, i do not need a lecture by a repugnant piece of trash like yourself.

I find this interesting for someone who seems to think the sorc capstone is a significant enough damage contribution to override the advantage of a /2 paladin splash, or thinking your saves would definitely suck with an 18 sorc/2 monk or rogue build.

I quite enjoy people who make tall claims, don't list their characters or any other such proof, and prove themselves as lacking basic knowledge on very common current build ideas in other threads.

[Chaimberland]

more than half of the "know it, byoh, etc." groups are run by someone who has no clue or is just a blatent @$$.

Agreed. I never join these groups.

[shajib]

all my toons can be looked and actualy excist (in the DDO game world).

And im not affraid to post there names, Where yours do not excist and clearly afraid to stand behind them.

Go ahead humour me noob.

[bartharok]

Calm down folks, nobody but you is interested in how big you think it is

[shajib]

I find this interesting for someone who seems to think the sorc capstone is a significant enough damage contribution to override the advantage of a /2 paladin splash, or thinking your saves would definitely suck with an 18 sorc/2 monk or rogue build.

I quite enjoy people who make tall claims, don't list their characters or any other such proof, and prove themselves as lacking basic knowledge on very common current build ideas in other threads.

Dont blame me if you suck. I prefer pure sorc over 18/2 splash. Already done pdk favor for 2 toons. If your not happy about it, then that is not my problem.

[thesnoman]

I know what to expect from BYOH. It's pretty clear. It's pretty black and white. You can say that when you say it you don't really mean it, but most people definitely mean it when they say it. You can quote me on that.


How do you KNOW when you don't even ASK the party leader?


I understand Purg and Vint's position. I don't fault them for this - it's their style of play and I've joined them at times on my WF arcane - he's 100% self sufficient. By the same token I would not even attempt join them on my Human Blitz that I built for a static group that can't self heal worth a ****, but can pull aggro and dish out DPS like nobody's business.

I do fault Chill for believing that EVERY BYOH PuG is exactly as Vint and Purg expect them to be when all he has to go in is what is posted in these forums rather than what is experienced in-game.

[WruntJunior]

Dont blame me if you suck. I prefer pure sorc over 18/2 splash. Already done pdk favor for 2 toons. If your not happy about it, then that is not my problem.

PDK favor is easy, I soloed it on the character I just finished TRing (only level 24 now, though, due to TRing Youngwrunt right after getting to 20).

Using it as a measuring stick of your awesome is really a measuring stick of your lack thereof - anyone can get PDK favor.

[mobrien316]

Great, so it should be easy for you to answer my question then. Who am I supposed to expect heals from when I join an all WF arcane party on my human fighter?

If you can't heal yourself to some degree, why would you join an all WF arcane party, regardless of whether the LFM read "BYOH" or was blank?

Do you feel it is the leader's job to heal everyone in the party, regardless of his class?

Even if the LFM is blank, if you see there are five WF arcanes in the party, why would join if your character needs healing support?


Are you on Thelanis? Because you sound a lot like a fighter I recently encountered. My rogue joined an epic elite group that had four pale masters in it. I think it was Under the Big Top. I assumed I'd be scroll healing myself. The LFM was blank. A fighter (perhaps it was you?) joined and almost immediately started complaining how stupid it was to do EE without a healer. He asked/demanded that I scroll heal him every few seconds throughout the quest, spamming "I need a heal now please" in the chat window every few seconds. He finally ragequit when I chose not to raise him after his fourth or fifth death.

[shajib]

PDK favor is easy, I soloed it on the character I just finished TRing (only level 24 now, though, due to TRing Youngwrunt right after getting to 20).

Using it as a measuring stick of your awesome is really a measuring stick of your lack thereof - anyone can get PDK favor.

Well you think your 18/2 built is the best. I disagree. I prefer pure sorc. Nobody is measuring how awesome he is.

[WruntJunior]

Well you think your 18/2 built is the best. I disagree. I prefer pure sorc. Nobody is measuring how awesome he is.

So, these 3 triple-completionist and 2 completionist characters you claim to have...who are they again? On what server? Or do they even exist?

I question your superior attitude as there seems to be some holes in your knowledge that should be pretty basic to fill, along with your unlisted characters. I would quite frankly be shocked if you had ONE triple-completionist, much less 3...furthermore, if you did have them, you'd be more likely to know that number of TRs != amount of game knowledge.

[eden2760]

If you can't heal yourself to some degree, why would you join an all WF arcane party, regardless of whether the LFM read "BYOH" or was blank?

Do you feel it is the leader's job to heal everyone in the party, regardless of his class?

Even if the LFM is blank, if you see there are five WF arcanes in the party, why would join if your character needs healing support?


Are you on Thelanis? Because you sound a lot like a fighter I recently encountered. My rogue joined an epic elite group that had four pale masters in it. I think it was Under the Big Top. I assumed I'd be scroll healing myself. The LFM was blank. A fighter (perhaps it was you?) joined and almost immediately started complaining how stupid it was to do EE without a healer. He asked/demanded that I scroll heal him every few seconds throughout the quest, spamming "I need a heal now please" in the chat window every few seconds. He finally ragequit when I chose not to raise him after his fourth or fifth death.

I think the OP is incap. Shouldda taken Diehard!

[shajib]

So, these 3 triple-completionist and 2 completionist characters you claim to have...who are they again? On what server? Or do they even exist?

I question your superior attitude as there seems to be some holes in your knowledge that should be pretty basic to fill, along with your unlisted characters. I would quite frankly be shocked if you had ONE triple-completionist, much less 3...furthermore, if you did have them, you'd be more likely to know that number of TRs != amount of game knowledge.

That is absolutely a myopic b/s attitude. What you are essentially saying is all pure built sorcs are noobs and they should have played 18/2 built. As a w/f sorc you do not need so much saves as i can heal myself easily and destroy the trash before they get to do significant damage. Moreover, each epic elite quests requires a different strategies to beat it. The way you describe the need for so much saves is as if your running head on towards the mobs.

P/S- Just who the hell are you to say only your built is the best. You do not represent anybody.

[WruntJunior]

That is absolutely a myopic b/s attitude. What you are essentially saying is all pure built sorcs are noobs and they should have played 18/2 built. As a w/f sorc you do not need so much saves as i can heal myself easily and destroy the trash before they get to do significant damage. Moreover, each epic elite quests requires a different strategies to beat it. The way you describe the need for so much saves is as if your running head on towards the mobs.

P/S- Just who the hell are you to say only your built is the best. You do not represent anybody.

It doesn't even sound like you're reading my posts. I stopped talking about the sorcs (which was just an example of a hole in your knowledge, as a good example in this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4893135&postcount=37)) already. Now how about answering the post you quoted?

[Rasczak]

*sob*

It's becoming grand
*munchmunchmunch*

[shajib]

It doesn't even sound like you're reading my posts. I stopped talking about the sorcs (which was just an example of a hole in your knowledge, as a good example in this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4893135&postcount=37)) already. Now how about answering the post you quoted?

Well obviously you have difficulty in comprehension. Let me simplify it for you. You made the point of number of trs = game knowledge in your previous post. This point was related to the other point that you made earlier that pure sorc sucks in comparison to 18/2 sorc. I disagreed with you point stating that you do not need to waste your capstone and can maximise your dps especially if you a wf sorc.


P/S- Talking to you is like talking to a wall.

[WruntJunior]

Well obviously you have difficulty in comprehension. Let me simplify it for you. You made the point of number of trs = game knowledge in your previous post. This point was related to the other point that you made earlier that pure sorc sucks in comparison to 18/2 sorc. I disagreed with you point stating that you do not need to waste your capstone and can maximise your dps especially if you a wf sorc.


P/S- Talking to you is like talking to a wall.

Bolded part = reading comprehension fail on your part (hint: "!=" is the same as "not equal to").

You're still avoiding posting your 3 triple-completionist characters that I'm sure totally exist. >_>

[shajib]

Bolded part = reading comprehension fail on your part.

You're still avoiding posting your 3 triple-completionist characters that I'm sure totally exist. >_>

Keep going you are very entertaining.

[Nedime]

Of course, I can not stop you from doing anything you like. However, I do question why you want to quote me out of context? The actual point of that statement was, "I, like the vast majority of the players in the community, am able to take whatever comes from a public grouping situation and make the most of it."

But you go ahead and quote me out of context if that's makes you feel better.

Was just a test to see if u were angry or only debating I got my answer, thanks.


I, like the vast majority of the players in the community

I suppose u drove surveys that prove this ?

Because otherwise you have no right to speak for the vast majority.

[Karavek]

I hate to you all I told you so! Nah, actually I love it. Thanks for the clarification Purg.

Sweety, your trying to use the extreme view of a multi life completionist power gamer who has little concern for others as your proof of a standard only makes you come off as silly.

These two forumites you keep using as your poster children for the BOYH have nothing to do with the actual BYOH movement which started all the way back in year one.

Ill try and give u a short summary. first year rogues couldnt get into groups for content that didnt have alot of traps, rangers in general where treated as black sheep. If one was a mix of these two classes or just a pure one your chances of pugging dropped critically low. Or if you tried to build a well rounded team and save a spot for a cleric or even a bard to offer some blue bar healing and save coin which at the time was alot less in abundance.

Most of my own early toons not including my divine warrior, pretty much all had ranger or rogue levels and where multi class. between the purists,the rogues are only for traps, and rangers are just gimp attitude players of such classes had exactly one option if they wanted to actually play the game.

You guessed it BYOH. Rogues learned to always pack simple clw wands to keep themselves topped off or to help get a incapped ally up and running so they could tend to themselves.

I couldnt tell you the number of pugs i ran in, in that first year that only had ranger and rogue icons. Not because we where excluding,but where excluded for the sin of our class icon. This in time coupled with the stress of playing a healer for others but never having one around to aid myself lead to me doing as most witha divine and only offering my healing power to known allies and guilds for raids where my resource costs would be mitigated by thoughtful players with mnen pots and the like.

BYOH became a way of life in DDO for those who didnt want to waste their play time looking for a perfect group, or where forced to band together with less well rounded groups. Fortunately in general the rogue and ranger classes tend to attract alot of old school pnp players who know how to work together even if that team work might consist of unconventional tactics not practiced by typical tank and spank groups.

[mobrien316]

Terms people write in their LFM's usually mean different things to different people. Reasonably intelligent people who aren't being deliberately obtuse for their own personal enjoyment know this.

Some people write "Elite for BB" because they are running elite for the bravery bonus. Others write the exact same thing, but they intend on zerging the quest, skipping the optionals, and blacklisting anyone who is "rude" enough to die.

Some people write "know it" to screen out people who expect to have a patient party leader explaining each part of the quest to them. Others write "know it" and intend to zerg through the whole quest and expect anyone who joins to be able to keep up.


If you see a term in the LFM and you wish clarification, send a tell. If the leader is annoyed by that, you probably didn't want to group with him anyway.

[Nedime]

Then why did you spend the last hour trying to convince me otherwise only to totally flip flop on your position once BYOHers with authority stepped up and made it very clear that they truly mean BYOH when they say BYOH?

Because games is still updating

[Vint]

snip

+1

Over the years we have had to adapt to play. When the LFM's were low (right before F2P) we had to find builds or ways to complete, short man or without always having a healer.

Since then (nearly 7 years), Purgatory, myself and many others have figured how to effectively run nearly everything in a quick fashion without needing to worry about a healer or having the perfect group.

We do not go picking fights, we don't hang out in the harbor and call everyone noobs, and we do not need to try to impress people to boost our ego. We are simply zerging back to 20 and are looking for like-minded people to make the process go a bit quicker. If people do not like it (like chill), fine, he ignores our LFM and we are all good to go.

My LFM may be rude to some, but they can ignore it. They can have their fun in their own way that will not coincide with mine. I am not making trouble for the establishment. It is the overly sensitive ones that wear their heart on their sleeve that need help.

p.s. I could say that a person is rude if their party is only looking for a healer. Is that not excluding people the same way that I apparently am?

[Phaeton_Seraph]

Once I joined a decent guild and started running raids, it became apparent that veteran players expected pretty much everyone to have a decent stack of heal pots, and carry wands or scrolls or whatever they could.

Pull your own weight as much as possible and lighten the load on the healer(s).

I picked this up by hearing people complaining about other people who don't carry a 100 stack of heal pots or whatever. As a newb, I thought that was crazy excessive.

However, it seems clear that this is the expectation once one stops being a newb. M



When I see BYOH in an LFM I expect to not see a healer in the group, or that the healer is battle/DPS specced, piking, IP zerging, or that the party will be splitting up, or that it's a raid and we're short an extra healer.

Should someone expect to get heals in a BYOH party? It's likely someone will toss you some heals, if they have a free hand or that you'll get rezzed, but you can't and shouldn't depend on it.

That's been my personal experience with BYOH. Am I wrong?

[OrodelaSol]

not sure if anyone has done the statistics but imho byoh means be self sufficient...i dont agree with it but thats what it means to every byoh lfm i have every joined...toons capable of healing others still did though because it is usuaully in their best interest for time saving n such

[Stormraiser]

So tell ya what... you get all your BYOH buddies to agree that BYOH merely means you can expect to be healed by others but you should have some pots just in case, and I'll agree that it isn't a rude and needlessly exclusionary LFM restriction.

A BYOH LFM means, you are expected to participate in the quest without having the rest of the party next to you. Without a **** hireling. If the rest of the party goes forward to fight the 2nd brother (in GOP) you and whomever is with you is supposed to be able to kill the 1st brother without dying. If that means, you have sufficient HP to take some hits and keep moving, or if you have to stop and drink a pot, or cast a cure, you are responsible for preserving your life AND participating. The majority of people in a BYOH will probably see if you are struggling and if they are able to, will probably cast some kind of spell/ability to help you, you should NOT rely on them for it.