This game needs Goblins

[squishwizzy]

I mean, how is it that a quintessential monster from D&D is overlooked in DDO? How could this happen?

You got Orcs, Hobgoblins, Ogres...but no goblins? I mean, ***?

We need goblins...lots of goblins...






...and cowbell. I got a feva. And the only thing that can cure it is more cowbell!

[danotmano1998]

/Signed


Yes. Goblins. Please.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Nice idea, however, the opportunity cost is not zero. Goblins would compete with the player and dev favorite kobold race as a low level humanoid race. Basically, the kobolds, orcs, and hobgoblins consumed all the content and dev resources and finding a niche for the endangered goblins has never been a priority.
Furthermore, relatively speaking, there is a good amount of low level content at the moment and current content development seems to be focused on higher lvl stuff (as it needs to be). Goblins would be monster chow in that stuff.


Now, Goblins as a PC race? I can get behind that in the short term!
http://www.goblinscomic.com/

[squishwizzy]

Nice idea, however, the opportunity cost is not zero. Goblins would compete with the player and dev favorite kobold race as a low level humanoid race. Basically, the kobolds, orcs, and hobgoblins consumed all the content and dev resources and finding a niche for the endangered goblins has never been a priority.
Furthermore, relatively speaking, there is a good amount of low level content at the moment and current content development seems to be focused on higher lvl stuff (as it needs to be). Goblins would be monster chow in that stuff.


Now, Goblins as a PC race? I can get behind that in the short term!
http://www.goblinscomic.com/

Kobolds are player and dev favorite because that have been "softened" from their original role, and because they are the ONLY low-level, intelligent monster (true monster) in the game. The other is Shaguin (sp:?), and frankly I've never liked them.

One thing they could do is offer an alternative fo Kothos Island. Because, frankly, I'm sick to death of it. I cringe to have to run that chain of quests over with a TR.

They could expand Cerulean Hills and include goblins as well. Honestly, it is an adventure area with two quests, loaded with goblinoid types. The areas further away from the entrance almost BEG for expansion.

My thoughts is that there is far more activity in low-level quests than there is high-level. Most of the low-level stuff is F2P, with the notable exception of Tangleroot, 3BC and Catecombs. I think adding a pack in low level content, and making it reasonably priced might be worth the investment of time.

Then add goblins for flavor.

Granted, there are a lot of quests from lvl 1 to 6 (about 110), so yeah I could see where adding a paid expansion might be white noise. There are very few quests for lvls 1 - 2, and they are almost exclusively on Kothos. TRs don't need Kothos, but they do need lvl 1 and 2 quests. It might be worth looking into an alternative to Kothos for paying players.

[Qhualor]

Yes. And fairies, pixies, unicorns, pegasus, imps and moar dragons.

[TGOskar]

Don't forget Bugbears. There's Hobgoblins and Bugbears, but no base goblins.

There's a slight chance for them to appear, but that implies adding Psionics: Blues are essentially psionic goblinoids, so they could be low-CR psychic enemies, in order to add diversity.

I also agree that Goblins should be in. They're just as iconic as kobolds in terms of PC-fodder, and they make interesting PC characters when played well. They're also the races that actually train Wargs, so it's natural that they appear handling wolves.

I'd love to see a Challenge that's essentially a large-scale battle between Goblins and Kobolds, with the Kobolds being the "thanks, but we still hate you" kind while the Goblins act as the more spirited and battle-crazy kind. The Challenge should be the PC toons choosing a side and fighting against each other in a sort of DotA on a MMO, creating a PvP environment combined with a Crystal Cove theme: you gather resources to defend home base, beat the enemy opponents and other Star challenges.

[Ganolyn]

They could expand Cerulean Hills and include goblins as well. Honestly, it is an adventure area with two quests, loaded with goblinoid types. The areas further away from the entrance almost BEG for expansion.

Same with Searing Heights. It didn't have a quest at all until they put the bazaar quest in there. 2-3 goblin side quests would fit in there quite well. It is one of the more eclectic areas in the game.

[squishwizzy]

Don't forget Bugbears. There's Hobgoblins and Bugbears, but no base goblins.


Exactly. An entire class of creatures named from the one monster that doesn't exist in the game.

Even going back to Tolkien, Orcs and goblins were basically one in the same, which is why I often scratch my head over the fact that Orcs are not goblinoids.


There's a slight chance for them to appear, but that implies adding Psionics: Blues are essentially psionic goblinoids, so they could be low-CR psychic enemies, in order to add diversity.



I think we're more likely to get goblins than psionics. When I was into AD&D a long time ago, I never really understood psionics as it applied to the game. It, to me, looked like something that someone tossed in to compete with magic without much consideration or planning. In either event, it'll be a relatively new game mechanic that I doubt would happen.

[droid327]

Goblins went extinct in Eberron millenia ago. Turns out they're highly addictive to Giants when ground up and smoked. The ancient Giants smoked all the goblins, then thought the Dragons were bogarting more boggarts, so they went to war. Stormreaver was just jonesin for that sweet sweet green...

[Meretrix]

Goblins could be the Kobolds of FR.

also please add some Umberhulks and Hook Horrors to the underdark.
Owlbears in the King's Forest, ahhh good ideas Meretrix!:D

[Memnir]

A new chain in the Harbor maybe (even though the Harbor is getting a bit crowded), Goblins invade to take over or reclaim turf inside the city from the Kobolds. Maybe the Goblins are assisted by Orcs - to get them a bit more exposure as well. The Stormreach Kobolds seek help from the Kobold Union, who remembers how we the players helped them with their Crystal Cove problems - and decide maybe it's time to bury the hatchet and get our help in order to survive the onslaught. Maybe a handful of adventures in the city that would culminate with a few quests where we take the fight to the Goblin/Orc alliance in the Cerulean Hills. Just for giggles' sake - make the adventure in the mid-teens, where we need more content. And Epic it from the get-go.

Well that does it for my Armchair Deving for the day. :)



Oh yeah - and the game really needs Owlbears. Really, really needs Owlbears. :D

[TGOskar]

Goblins went extinct in Eberron millenia ago. Turns out they're highly addictive to Giants when ground up and smoked. The ancient Giants smoked all the goblins, then thought the Dragons were bogarting more boggarts, so they went to war. Stormreaver was just jonesin for that sweet sweet green...

You're entirely forgetting about Dar'guun. I know a lot of people hate Eberron; what about us who actually like the setting!?

I know it's a joke, but...after all, IIRC kobolds aren't native to Xen'drik either. Goblinoids, on the other hand, are actuallly (alongside Orcs) native to Khorvaire, and once held a frickin' Empire, and they were the ones holding Xoriat at bay. Goblinoids are important in Eberron.


Goblins could be the Kobolds of FR.

Eh...how about Orcs instead? Isn't King Obould Many-Arrows one of the iconic villains of the setting? It'd be interesting to see an invasion of King Obould and Gruumsh's forces...in Dar'guun, against the Lhesh Haruuc and the Dhakaani remnants. And Droaam as a third party.


A new chain in the Harbor maybe (even though the Harbor is getting a bit crowded), Goblins invade to take over or reclaim turf inside the city from the Kobolds. Maybe the Goblins are assisted by Orcs - to get them a bit more exposure as well. The Stormreach Kobolds seek help from the Kobold Union, who remembers how we the players helped them with their Crystal Cove problems - and decide maybe it's time to bury the hatchet and get our help in order to survive the onslaught. Maybe a handful of adventures in the city that would culminate with a few quests where we take the fight to the Goblin/Orc alliance in the Cerulean Hills. Just for giggles' sake - make the adventure in the mid-teens, where we need more content. And Epic it from the get-go.

Well that does it for my Armchair Deving for the day. :)

I'd be interesting, but I want to see the fight from the Goblins' side as well. It'd make little sense considering that there are Epic-level Kobolds around, but no Epic-level Goblinoids (unless I might be forgetting something; then again, the Blood Tide is mostly comprised of goblinoids).

Heck, why not replace the Blood Tide kobolds for goblinoids? That'd be quite thematic. Then, on the Marketplace, you could have a fight between the Waterworks' kobolds, the Cerulean Hills' Orc tribes and the (remnants of the) Blood Tide goblinoids, settled in different maps on the three locations.

There's a lot of ways to provide exposure to goblinoids and orcs, but you don't have to place Kobolds as the "good" guys. Letting friendly monsters from all sides could do some benefit. I mean, the Dhakaani goblinoids aren't always evil (just racist), there's the Gatekeeper orcs, and the kobolds...have the Kobold Union.

Be fair to all monster races. Orcs already have their half-kin as PCs, and considering Gnomes aren't even here...

[squishwizzy]

"Goblin remember waterworks!"







Nahhh...just doesn't work.

[squishwizzy]

A new chain in the Harbor maybe (even though the Harbor is getting a bit crowded), Goblins invade to take over or reclaim turf inside the city from the Kobolds. Maybe the Goblins are assisted by Orcs - to get them a bit more exposure as well. The Stormreach Kobolds seek help from the Kobold Union, who remembers how we the players helped them with their Crystal Cove problems - and decide maybe it's time to bury the hatchet and get our help in order to survive the onslaught. Maybe a handful of adventures in the city that would culminate with a few quests where we take the fight to the Goblin/Orc alliance in the Cerulean Hills. Just for giggles' sake - make the adventure in the mid-teens, where we need more content. And Epic it from the get-go.


You know, the Black Anvil Forest (or whatever it's called) in House K. has, like 2 quests. I mean, there's nothing there of any note. If not the Harbor, maybe they can add stuff to House K.?

[TrinityTurtle]

"Goblin remember waterworks!"







Nahhh...just doesn't work.

Maybe that is the problem, goblins didn't have very good memories and they not only forgot waterworks, but how to get there. :) I had this conversation with my husband when we first started playing, and I found myself missing the little freaks.

[Kinerd]

Nice idea, however, the opportunity cost is not zero. Goblins would compete with the player and dev favorite kobold race as a low level humanoid race. Basically, the kobolds, orcs, and hobgoblins consumed all the content and dev resources and finding a niche for the endangered goblins has never been a priority.
Furthermore, relatively speaking, there is a good amount of low level content at the moment and current content development seems to be focused on higher lvl stuff (as it needs to be). Goblins would be monster chow in that stuff.Two words: paragon goblins.

[TGOskar]

"Goblin remember waterworks!"







Nahhh...just doesn't work.

Well, leave Waterworks to the Kobolds, then!

How about: "Who's the Dar, who's the Dar? WE'S THE DAR, WE'S THE DAR!!"

Or something like that. Remember that, while kobolds pride themselves in a (supposed) link to dragons, the goblins have a more recent account of their Empire. They're proud of being bossed around by hobgoblins and bugbears, and that's where the fun can be.

That, or make them like THunt's Goblins. Nothing can be funny than having a Goblin beat some one and let 'em spit out "Redefining Challenge Rating!!", going all meta.

[squishwizzy]

"Goblin is all that!"

[Ganolyn]

Every time a goblin shows up the background music should change to Misty Mountain Hop.

[squishwizzy]

bump


(Only to be annoying)

[Musouka]

I seriously thought the quintessential monster of Dungeons and Dragons was Dragons, hence the obvious name of the game.

The rest are just fluff, and not required.

[salmag]

There are plenty of places for Goblins to appear.

Steam Tunnels.
Cerulean Hills, and Searing Heights.
Tangleroot Gorge.
Black Anvil Forest and the Shrouded Vale.
Ataraxia's Haven.
Red Fens.

[squishwizzy]

So very, very true.

[ThePrincipal]

+1 Goblins

Also the variety of monsters is quiet low --- boring to see the same creatures with a slightly different tint.

And yes more Dragons. I would also like Aliens, Robocop, and Talking Ponies.

[Willibold]

Please bring in some goblins, and gnomes as the latest oppressed minority.

[El_Magico_Gonzalez]

Bah....you are all a bunch of hipsters trying to look cool supporting multicultural societies....

[squishwizzy]

Bah....you are all a bunch of hipsters trying to look cool supporting multicultural societies....

I'm just looking for more unique stuff to kill.

But hey, if that's multicutural...I can live with that.

[Vellrad]

I'd love to see a Challenge that's essentially a large-scale battle between Goblins and Kobolds, with the Kobolds being the "thanks, but we still hate you" kind while the Goblins act as the more spirited and battle-crazy kind. The Challenge should be the PC toons choosing a side and fighting against each other in a sort of DotA on a MMO, creating a PvP environment combined with a Crystal Cove theme: you gather resources to defend home base, beat the enemy opponents and other Star challenges.

Do we really need to copy small NWN module here?

[oradafu]

I can't find it, but I made a suggestion a few years ago about having a major event/update that involved Goblins. I think I called it the Great Goblin Invasion.

The idea was as follows:
* Add a Goblin rare to at least one quest or wilderness area of each pack.
* Add some quests about the Goblins throughout the level ranges. For example, a Goblin quest at level 4, 8, 12 and 16. All these quests would be loosely linked and give a background story on the Goblins.
* With both of those things added, the total absence of Goblins would be erased from the game and it would lead to a series of Epic only quests and raid. I pictured the raid would be an invasion on Stormreach via the Cerulean Hills.

Of course, this was before MOTU, but I still think the above could be possible.

Speaking of MOTU, I'm a bit disappointed that MOTU wasn't filled with Goblins. That seemed like the opportune time introduce a new trash mob for high level characters to deal with. You know, the Epic version of Kobolds, since Goblins were skipped over completely in Eberron.

[squishwizzy]

I can't find it, but I made a suggestion a few years ago about having a major event/update that involved Goblins. I think I called it the Great Goblin Invasion.

The idea was as follows:
* Add a Goblin rare to at least one quest or wilderness area of each pack.
* Add some quests about the Goblins throughout the level ranges. For example, a Goblin quest at level 4, 8, 12 and 16. All these quests would be loosely linked and give a background story on the Goblins.
* With both of those things added, the total absence of Goblins would be erased from the game and it would lead to a series of Epic only quests and raid. I pictured the raid would be an invasion on Stormreach via the Cerulean Hills.

Of course, this was before MOTU, but I still think the above could be possible.

Speaking of MOTU, I'm a bit disappointed that MOTU wasn't filled with Goblins. That seemed like the opportune time introduce a new trash mob for high level characters to deal with. You know, the Epic version of Kobolds, since Goblins were skipped over completely in Eberron.

Yeah, but realistically, having an epic version of goblins like like having epic wolves. I mean...they are frickin' wolves for cripes sake. They probably shouldn't be doing 300 HP per hit. Otherwise, they'd go through chew toys and dentabones in milliseconds....

And how many epic kobolds do you have? The closet I can think of is Kesquick in Shroud...and he's just plain annoying...not dangerous.

I think Cerulean Hills is a decent place to kick off goblins.

[Ganolyn]

Here's two perfect places in Searing Heights and Cerulean Hills that goblins would fit right in:

http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx93/Corbomite/SH_zpsafdd6fe0.png

In Searing Heights you could enter from one of two hillside entrances/exits that each would have quest in them. You would exit at one of the two hilltop entrances/exits, do another quest outside (none of these kills would go towards the slayer count) and then enter the other hilltop entrance/exit, do the third quest and leave the hill for the slayer area again. They could put shrines on the hilltop. These quests could be walkup or assigned, it makes no matter. We could finally get to access the area behind the stage that you can't jump into.


http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx93/Corbomite/CH_zps35f60bcd.png

In the Cerulean Hills they could put a good underground lair in the hill under the Temple with the entrance in the cliff face behind the Wolf Feeding Grounds, with the exit in the back of the temple under the shrine.

[Cardoor]

Here's two perfect places in Searing Heights and Cerulean Hills that goblins would fit right in...

Nicely illustrated Ganolyn. Maybe make the hills entrance a third quest like "Into the Labyrinth of the Goblin King"

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/shookdown/bowie_labyrinth.jpg

[squishwizzy]

Nicely illustrated Ganolyn. Maybe make the hills entrance a third quest like "Into the Labyrinth of the Goblin King"

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/shookdown/bowie_labyrinth.jpg

That's actually a cool idea, as well as the map.

[squishwizzy]

Another place could be Tangleroot. They have 1 set of quests there which are horribly redundant. This is in addition to a bugbear area, which would dovetail nicely into a goblinoid underground area.

[Ganolyn]

That's actually a cool idea, as well as the map.


I can only imagine what bugs the sudden change in clipping and gravity would cause!




Another place could be Tangleroot. They have 1 set of quests there which are horribly redundant. This is in addition to a bugbear area, which would dovetail nicely into a goblinoid underground area.


I looked at Tangleroot and it is pretty crowded in there already, but I suppose they could put an entrance and lair behind The Wolf Hunter's Fate area where you find Clamor and they could make the Overgrown Fortress an actual quest (make the entrance inside the existing structure so they could leave Jarak where he is) by increaseing the size of the interior down into the cliff. They could have an exit by the Submerged Grotto below. They could also sprinkle some goblin footsoldiers among the hobgoblins in their areas as well.

[Cardoor]

I can only imagine what bugs the sudden change in clipping and gravity would cause!

...

and begs the question: Do Monks get reduced ascending damage? Someone who paid attention in Dreaming Dark or Reaver's Fate might know.

It just occurred to me that the Rift has some funky gravity too. Put David Bowie in there and we have next years Halloween event.

[Ganolyn]

You know, the Steam Tunnels is another place they could put goblins in with little trouble too. There is only STK in there plus two (three?) sections that go pretty much nowhere.

[TGOskar]

Do we really need to copy small NWN module here?

Care to explain the reference? I'm afraid I've never had the joy of (or I've been lucky not to, whatever suits you) playing Neverwinter Nights, so I don't seem to get the reference. The reference I use is somewhat like DotA, allowing a method of PvP for those who like the idea and adding some spike into the world.

Thus...I don't seem to understand where the scorn comes from.

[squishwizzy]

...they could make the Overgrown Fortress an actual quest (make the entrance inside the existing structure so they could leave Jarak where he is) by increaseing the size of the interior down into the cliff. They could have an exit by the Submerged Grotto below. They could also sprinkle some goblin footsoldiers among the hobgoblins in their areas as well.

Putting an entrance int he Overgrown Fortress was more along the lines of what I was thinking.

If that is not a possibility, you could always place an entrance along the path to the Overgrown fortress. There is nothing there from the bridge to that area. But, to be honest, I like the idea of expanding the Overgrown Fortress and making that a goblin quest (as it is filled with Bugbears already). It has a Keep on the Borderlands feel to it.
And yeah, have it spill out into the river valley below.

[squishwizzy]

You know, the Steam Tunnels is another place they could put goblins in with little trouble too. There is only STK in there plus two (three?) sections that go pretty much nowhere.

True.

There's all this area with maybe two quests there, and a pretty anemic explorer area. The tunnels themselves seem really out of place: they are not really an explorer area, and are a little too intricate to just be a conduit to the adventure proper. Adding a new quest there would make them seem more complete.

[squishwizzy]

In the Cerulean Hills they could put a good underground lair in the hill under the Temple with the entrance in the cliff face behind the Wolf Feeding Grounds, with the exit in the back of the temple under the shrine.

My other thought was a spot near the cave-in. That's actually a pretty isolated area with just an explorer and nothing else. I'll never forget the first time I ran Cerulean hills, and I got to the caved-in tunnel, I actually went looking for a quest entrance either at the tunnel or somewhere nearby. It seemed like a natural fit for an adventure.

[HatsuharuZ]

If Goblins were a player race, what would they bring to the table? What stats and abilities do they have?

[Ganolyn]

My other thought was a spot near the cave-in. That's actually a pretty isolated area with just an explorer and nothing else. I'll never forget the first time I ran Cerulean hills, and I got to the caved-in tunnel, I actually went looking for a quest entrance either at the tunnel or somewhere nearby. It seemed like a natural fit for an adventure.


I thought about that too, but very often that area is populated by lions and I felt that wolves were more their style. The temple can have wolves or lions too, so that's why I made the back door at the temple and the front near the wolves under the cliff who are always there. Besides, if the tunnel is caved in, there is no entrance.

[squishwizzy]

If Goblins were a player race, what would they bring to the table? What stats and abilities do they have?

My OP never suggested player race, only as foes.

I think one of the main problems with player races like Kobold and Goblin is that DDO's alignment "floor" stops at neutral. Evil player characters are basically personna non gratia. Traditionally, kobolds and goblins have been considered "evil" creatures (which is why kobold still hate you). So, you'd be limited to neutral characters only for both races. Not a lot of variety there as far as alignments.

And, to be honest, I don't see DDO exploring the dark side anytime soon.

[squishwizzy]

bump

[HatsuharuZ]

My OP never suggested player race, only as foes.

I think one of the main problems with player races like Kobold and Goblin is that DDO's alignment "floor" stops at neutral. Evil player characters are basically personna non gratia. Traditionally, kobolds and goblins have been considered "evil" creatures (which is why kobold still hate you). So, you'd be limited to neutral characters only for both races. Not a lot of variety there as far as alignments.

And, to be honest, I don't see DDO exploring the dark side anytime soon.

I think it's silly to have an intelligent race not able to pick a "good" alignment if they so choose.

Goblin Paladins!

Kobold Monks!

:D

[Zorth]

Kobolds already cover the niche, but I do respect goblins, in that they were the first monsters we fought back when this game was pencil and paper.

I would like to see Red Named goblins fill a niche in level 4 quests that hobgoblins and bugbears have overdone too much as to add fluff to the game.

A powerful and unique type of Red Named goblin story line that might branch off to something that helps fill this niche that so many of us want filled.

Yes to goblins.

[Vengeance777]

Yes we need Goblins, Introduce them as villains in a lower level Forgotten Realms pack and the player character Gnomes together in the same update. Its a perfect combination. You could put a Gnome and Goblin back to back on the update cover and come up with some catchy names for the pack easily. Marketing would eat it up.


My OP never suggested player race, only as foes.

I think one of the main problems with player races like Kobold and Goblin is that DDO's alignment "floor" stops at neutral. Evil player characters are basically personna non gratia. Traditionally, kobolds and goblins have been considered "evil" creatures (which is why kobold still hate you). So, you'd be limited to neutral characters only for both races. Not a lot of variety there as far as alignments.

And, to be honest, I don't see DDO exploring the dark side anytime soon.


Eberron races don't have alignment restrictions, one of the best perks of the setting honestly. Good aligned Chromatic Dragons and Evil aligned Metallic Dragons are common in Eberron lore. Its not uncommon to encounter Good aligned Beholders, Drow, Goblinoids and other traditional Evil races in Eberron. The monsters hold two kingdoms in Khorvaire now and are commonly employed all over Khorvaire and Xendrik.

Heck in Eberron your more likely to be killed by a corrupt House Denieth Human sentinel, Arenal Elf mercenary, House Tharani Elf assassin, or House Kundarak Arum Dwarf than a Dhakaani soldier Hobgoblin, Gatekeeper Orc, or Vulkoor Drow.

One of the major things DDO gets right in the game is having the players interact with the Traditionally evil in other setting monsters on peaceful terms. Stuff like the Mindflayer Fred working in exchange for Dragonshards, Monsters collecting items and giving quests, The Necro Doomsphere being Lawful Good, Velah and the other Chromatic Agents of Argonessan ending up being the Good guys trying to stop the Truthful One, Arritrikos betraying Horoth and the Devils, are awesome and fit perfectly with Eberron Lore.

[squishwizzy]

I guess I'm a little old fashioned. I want my heros good and my monsters evil.

Plus I was never into "good" dragons. I'm very much into the Beowulf / Tolkien school of thought that thet are vicious and destructive.

I think you can get away with making kobolds "cute" as they are somewhat dog-faced, and they look like one of your pets. I doubt that you'd be able to do that with a goblin, though, as they are generally very ugly. And as people who play Helfs often remark: no one wants to play an ugly toon.

Plus, to be honest, I think it is far less coding and work to make them just mobs, as opposed to a new player race. That will then require all sorts of graphical work that isn't required of just another graphics skin over a fairly generic mob AI.

[Ganolyn]

And as people who play Helfs often remark: no one wants to play an ugly toon.

I'd just like to know who thinks that warforged and half-orcs are pretty.

[TGOskar]

I guess I'm a little old fashioned. I want my heros good and my monsters evil.

Plus I was never into "good" dragons. I'm very much into the Beowulf / Tolkien school of thought that thet are vicious and destructive.

I think you can get away with making kobolds "cute" as they are somewhat dog-faced, and they look like one of your pets. I doubt that you'd be able to do that with a goblin, though, as they are generally very ugly. And as people who play Helfs often remark: no one wants to play an ugly toon.

Plus, to be honest, I think it is far less coding and work to make them just mobs, as opposed to a new player race. That will then require all sorts of graphical work that isn't required of just another graphics skin over a fairly generic mob AI.

To clear things out: I love what Eberron did of allowing characters to behave outside of their typical alignment. It throws a wrench to see someone you think as good be actually evil, someone who seems sinister be actually benevolent, and everything in between. For example: I love the idea behind High Cardinal Krozen (an evil, self-righteous cardinal of a religion of Good), behind Queen Aurala (an apparently genuinely good royal who nonetheless wants to drag the world into war again), behind King Kaius III (a vampire king who's actually evil, who's acting as if he were his own grandson, but who doesn't want another war to happen and actually looks to enforce the truce), and others. I like the idea of non-traditional PCs and NPCs to throw the wrench and allow people to stop metagaming (which, no matter what you do, will be inevitable) and actually think what to do with the usual non-traditional combat. However, it should be something used sparingly, and wisely. Note that I don't agree of the future avalanche of Drizzt clones because of this: something that should be non-traditional instead becomes cliche.

That said: who said anything about making Goblins PC characters? They're not in the game as actual mobs, and they're as every bit as important as kobolds and orcs. It's a bit more critical when you see that they're the second low-level small race in the game, and while the devs seem to desire having the kobolds be the game's mascots, that doesn't mean an entire section of the goblinoid community is left out of the game. I mean, you know how much the community has asked for Gnomes, just because they're part of the PHB? Well, goblins are part of both the MM and Eberron, so they should appear.

That doesn't mean goblins, OR kobolds for that regard, HAVE to be PCs. Kobolds would be the novelty choice for people, but they aren't meant to be PCs. Likewise, just because we're asking for Goblins to be part of the game's mobs, doesn't mean we have to get them as PCs either. However, note that the game is mostly set on Eberron and JUST RECENTLY has overlapped with Faerun (to my dismay, sadly), which allows for interactions with non-evil representatives of typically evil races.

[Kinerd]

Kobold Monks!You must defeat their Dragon Punch to stand a chance.

[Kelendren]

Hmmm.... You do realize that "Kobald" is German for "Goblin" right?
Theoretically, goblins already ARE in the game, just named differently

[donfilibuster]

Ideally, the goblins would best fit on an expansion on either Eberron or FR.
It's fine to not have them on Xen'drik, being too weak to have an actual tribe settled in the region.

They can still creep in bands, which is a good hook to put them on the spots already mentioned in the thread.
Foreign Goblins could be making incursions on every corner they can sneak to.


p.s. BTW, Sir Pratchett has wrote about this scenario where the goblins were left out of civilization on the discworld.

[Phemt81]

Signed ofc, we have Hobgoblins and not goblins? We have kobolds and not goblins?

Fix it please.

[FranOhmsford]

A new chain in the Harbor maybe (even though the Harbor is getting a bit crowded), Goblins invade to take over or reclaim turf inside the city from the Kobolds. Maybe the Goblins are assisted by Orcs - to get them a bit more exposure as well. The Stormreach Kobolds seek help from the Kobold Union, who remembers how we the players helped them with their Crystal Cove problems - and decide maybe it's time to bury the hatchet and get our help in order to survive the onslaught. Maybe a handful of adventures in the city that would culminate with a few quests where we take the fight to the Goblin/Orc alliance in the Cerulean Hills. Just for giggles' sake - make the adventure in the mid-teens, where we need more content. And Epic it from the get-go.

Well that does it for my Armchair Deving for the day. :)



Oh yeah - and the game really needs Owlbears. Really, really needs Owlbears. :D


Yes we need Goblins, Introduce them as villains in a lower level Forgotten Realms pack and the player character Gnomes together in the same update. Its a perfect combination. You could put a Gnome and Goblin back to back on the update cover and come up with some catchy names for the pack easily. Marketing would eat it up.



Continuing my crusade to get Kobold PCs in DDO:


Yark!

Kobolds and Gnomes in "The Little People" pack - Could also bring in Goblins as enemies {Goblins occupy the Stormreach sewers forcing Kobolds out into the light. Goldscuttle {Lvl 20 Artificer} leads the resistance ably aided by Edlin {Lvl 18 Sorceror} and The Exile {Lvl 18 Fav Soul}.

The little people pack! I like that.

[donfilibuster]

Continuing my crusade to get Kobold PCs in DDO:
Good idea, now that's novel and totally works, plus has read-by-a-dev already.
And there i was worried about pitting the Gnomes vs. Kobolds, teaming up on the poor gobs would solve it.
So much potential my head hurts.