The end of DC-casting?

[Ape_Man]

This isn't a d00000mm!!! thread, just an observation.

With the High Road pack and what appears to be on Epic Gianthold mobs saves have gone up. They've gone up a lot. They've gone up enough that maxed-out DC casters cannot land spells reliably without enough debuffing that it's just not feasible.

Traditionally mobs would have a weak save. Casters would have weak fort and high will, brutes would have high fort and weak will. As seen in High Road the mobs have both high Fort, Will, and Reflex saves. Reports from Lamania show this trend continues with all saves even higher, i can't confirm this so correct me if I'm wrong.

So a simple question to Turbine . . . do you simply want to kill off DC-casting as a viable play style? That's what it looks like. Casters have other options, is that what you want us pursuing?

[redspecter23]

It's a frustrating situation when mob saves rise at a greater rate than player DC's can keep up. I haven't run the new GH content myself so I'm just going on what has been stated. How much dedication does it take to reach a reasonable DC for EE GH? Is it even possible?

We could be seeing a huge rise in bards with fascinate for crowd control if nothing from the caster side besides webs land consistently. I have to say as a melee player it is quite disheartening to run with casters that just plow through epic elite mobs with wail, finger and even PK while you attempt to score a few hits before the mob is instakilled. I hope this isn't the response to help even out casters and melee. It was just starting to get close (at least in epics).

My hope is that any extreme saves on mobs are just a preemptive bump to account for potential player power creep from the enhancement pass. It's tough to judge any DC issues until after we see the full picture in a few months perhaps.

[Purkilius]

Yeah soon EE endgame is going to be just WF shiradi sorcs and WF melee arti jugernauts!

[Ape_Man]

It's a frustrating situation when mob saves rise at a greater rate than player DC's can keep up. I haven't run the new GH content myself so I'm just going on what has been stated. How much dedication does it take to reach a reasonable DC for EE GH? Is it even possible?

I don't think it's possible even with completionist. Correct me if I'm wrong.



We could be seeing a huge rise in bards with fascinate for crowd control if nothing from the caster side besides webs land consistently. I have to say as a melee player it is quite disheartening to run with casters that just plow through epic elite mobs with wail, finger and even PK while you attempt to score a few hits before the mob is instakilled. I hope this isn't the response to help even out casters and melee. It was just starting to get close (at least in epics).

Pre U16 EEs weren't bad. I could finger but I couldn't get everything. And Wail was nerfed so that was never clearing a room.

If they are so afraid of insta-kills being useful then what's up with the absurd will saves? At least mass-hold and melees requires teamwork. But even after switching my magister's focus to enchantment and getting a Twilight I'm finding holds/danceball to be unreliable.



My hope is that any extreme saves on mobs are just a preemptive bump to account for potential player power creep from the enhancement pass. It's tough to judge any DC issues until after we see the full picture in a few months perhaps.

I suspect this to be the case, we'll be Pale Masters and Arch-mages at the same time and the power-creep will catch up.

[Alternative]

Will saves are too high on EE. It seems you can CC reliably on a maxed DC enchant archmage with debuffs, but I'm not going to respec my pale master (who has 2 enchant feats btw) into a one trick pony. Cut will saves by 5 across the EE board I'd say, it shouldn't cause any disaster now that EIN gets fixed too.

[smatt]

It's just the ebb and flow thing... They pump up saves and the DC folks get worked up. Then they push out more DC type enhancements, and pump up HP's and the AOE folsk get all worked up.

If they don't keep people adjusting their builds to the build of the Update... Then what is there to do... ;)

[Ape_Man]

It's just the ebb and flow thing... They pump up saves and the DC folks get worked up. Then they push out more DC type enhancements, and pump up HP's and the AOE folsk get all worked up.

If they don't keep people adjusting their builds to the build of the Update... Then what is there to do... ;)

The power-creep of MoTU almost killed the game. Do we want more of the same?

[WruntJunior]

The DCs needed are way too high for me...had just capped my wizard (needed a +5 tome and I would've only been missing completionist for max sustainable int, and I also had a quite large stockpile of DDO store int pots (about 500, stockpiled them through monthly points over a while)) and, with a reasonably high necro DC (56) or reasonable enchantment DC for a palemaster (with magister set up for enchantment, though only with greater enchantment focus - 54), I felt like unless I used half my spell points for debuffing, I couldn't do anything in EEs, especially High Road.

I changed over to shiradi palemaster, started using cheap magic missiles and the like...suddenly enemies died for a lot less SP than multi-debuffs + instakills/holds...so I just went straight over to WF Shiradi Sorc.

Seems like the power of endgame casters has shifted from DC-based arcanes to DPS-based arcanes. Eventually, something may happen to reverse them again (as in the pre-u14 epics, where the health was too high compared to the damage we dealt, and therefore DCs were winning), but until then, it's a DPS playground now.

[Enoach]

I think my problem with this discussion is the definition of "reliable"

Many look for the "No Fail" DC as being reliable, others 80%, still others define it as being better than 50% chance.

What has been lost in the DC-Caster vs DPS-Caster race is that both should be reliant on good tactics, timing and preparation.

But to put ones eggs in a single basket is also not good Character building and during the time when Epics was easily won with mass holds and hasted melee was still only one dimension. However, it then shifted to the other extreme where the wave of a finger and poof gone by a caster didn't fix things either

Every creature should have a "Weakness" be it a specific save or if it is easy to kill from range vs hand-to-hand. The problem is some of the Epic creatures we have been given so far don't have a weakness. I also believe that there should be a mix so that a single weakness cannot be exploited.

I have not seen the Saves or projections for eGH, but I would imagine dragons should be impossible to "Control" or "Insta-Kill" it is a dragon. But it should be susceptible to its opposite element.

From what I recall SR was not present for creatures of Giant Hold, so maybe this will be a great playground allowing for the other types of casters such as the Bard to flourish with their flair.

[Ape_Man]

The DCs needed are way too high for me...had just capped my wizard (needed a +5 tome and I would've only been missing completionist for max sustainable int, and I also had a quite large stockpile of DDO store int pots (about 500, stockpiled them through monthly points over a while)) and, with a reasonably high necro DC (56) or reasonable enchantment DC for a palemaster (with magister set up for enchantment, though only with greater enchantment focus - 54), I felt like unless I used half my spell points for debuffing, I couldn't do anything in EEs, especially High Road.

I changed over to shiradi palemaster, started using cheap magic missiles and the like...suddenly enemies died for a lot less SP than multi-debuffs + instakills/holds...so I just went straight over to WF Shiradi Sorc.

Seems like the power of endgame casters has shifted from DC-based arcanes to DPS-based arcanes. Eventually, something may happen to reverse them again (as in the pre-u14 epics, where the health was too high compared to the damage we dealt, and therefore DCs were winning), but until then, it's a DPS playground now.

This is exactly my same frustrations. 55 Enchant DC isn't reliable and you have to bordeline gimp your necro to hit this. I'm in the "why bother" boat right now.

[danotmano1998]

*sigh*

Ok, shelving all mage plans.
No reliable DC's = death of the wizard, rise of the sorceror.

Hopefully this will be adjusted so that an entire class isn't made near useless.

I blame all the "Look at my 97 DC's!!! I'm teh uberz!!!" threads that were made by people that hit ridiculously high and unrealistic DC's, which the dev's then used as their baseline.



I changed over to shiradi palemaster, started using cheap magic missiles and the like...suddenly enemies died for a lot less SP than multi-debuffs + instakills/holds...so I just went straight over to WF Shiradi Sorc.


Shhhh !!! You know how this works... If it's working too good, they'll nerf that too.

[LOOON375]

Many look for the "No Fail" DC as being reliable.And that right there is the whole problem.

Everyone, **** near everyone, makes "no fail" out to be the required "norm". And I find it laughable to say the least.

And here we are right back to the "the game is too easy" VS "The game is too hard" **** once again.

There is more than two schools of magic, and there are more spells than just mass hold and finger of death.

[smatt]

This is exactly my same frustrations. 55 Enchant DC isn't reliable and you have to bordeline gimp your necro to hit this. I'm in the "why bother" boat right now. I find 55 perfectly reliable.. So you must be one of those "It's has to be automatic because I'm awesome" types? 55 is hard to hit for most though... I mean why have EE if it's automatic all the time.......

[Deathdefy]

I'm worried too. Leaving aside Will for a moment, if fort saves of GH mobs really are +50ish, then that's a little over the top to my mind.


An epic hireling vendor will be added to Gianthold before U17 ships. We're currently focusing on monster balancing, so haven't gotten to that yet.

Gives me some hope (from the Lammania forums found http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4863274#post4863274 ) that saves are being looked at.

[patang01]

This isn't a d00000mm!!! thread, just an observation.

With the High Road pack and what appears to be on Epic Gianthold mobs saves have gone up. They've gone up a lot. They've gone up enough that maxed-out DC casters cannot land spells reliably without enough debuffing that it's just not feasible.

Traditionally mobs would have a weak save. Casters would have weak fort and high will, brutes would have high fort and weak will. As seen in High Road the mobs have both high Fort, Will, and Reflex saves. Reports from Lamania show this trend continues with all saves even higher, i can't confirm this so correct me if I'm wrong.

So a simple question to Turbine . . . do you simply want to kill off DC-casting as a viable play style? That's what it looks like. Casters have other options, is that what you want us pursuing?

You haven't seen anything then; Epic GH - I have a sorc with Char 54 and all the gear DC you can think of and even on normal and in the wilderness area I struggled with some basic spells due to saves. It's to the point that only palemasters will be able to insta kill and everything have become brutal DPS only; which is fine for me as savant but not always cool for CC specialists and such.

[xTethx]

I dont think its the death of the wizard, in fact i personally think they are still much stronger than sorcerer, both in group and solo.

[patang01]

And that right there is the whole problem.

Everyone, **** near everyone, makes "no fail" out to be the required "norm". And I find it laughable to say the least.

And here we are right back to the "the game is too easy" VS "The game is too hard" **** once again.

There is more than two schools of magic, and there are more spells than just mass hold and finger of death.

Keep in mind that if you specialize yourself into one category and still can't do it reliably (say 80%) you're terminally weak in all category and everyone goes for the one trick pony builds. Because no one wants to create well geared builds that are unreliable at what they do and blows chunks on XP on something that might work 50% of the time.

I don't mind the 80 percent reliably builds because that leaves them a niche for what they do as it is it seems that everything is moving towards super DPS and that's kind of boring. I mean I don't complain as a sorc, but you leave a lot of tactics off the table if that's what's left as arcane.

[Ape_Man]

I find 55 perfectly reliable.. So you must be one of those "It's has to be automatic because I'm awesome" types? 55 is hard to hit for most though... I mean why have EE if it's automatic all the time.......

When it's easier to solo stuff on a melee something is wrong.

[Cetus]

Meh, I instakill just fine in EE high road. DC casting is still very much alive according to my experience.

[Wipey]

I dont think its the death of the wizard, in fact i personally think they are still much stronger than sorcerer, both in group and solo.
I think OP is not just about wizards. Your shiradi nuker ( and many others with multiple past lives ) exactly proves the point.

[smatt]

When it's easier to solo stuff on a melee something is wrong.
:rolleyes: Oh come on.... The melee were just complaining... I see DC casters that are doing fine in EE stuff..... And I see lots that don't, and that goes for melee as well.... Jsut do what most of the self-proclaimed ubers do..... run multi-destinies and all will be fine ;)

[WruntJunior]

:rolleyes: Oh come on.... The melee were just complaining... I see DC casters that are doing fine in EE stuff..... And I see lots that don't, and that goes for melee as well.... Jsut do what most of the self-proclaimed ubers do..... run multi-destinies and all will be fine ;)

Or just run an arcane in shiradi. >_> Or a good melee in LD, or an AA in FotW.

[fco-karatekid]

I can reasonably see one of two things happening:

1) Enhancement pass will boost DC's a bit to catch up to content

or

2) they will leave it as we are seeing play out now, meaning in parties, one caster will have to debuff and the other attack the relevant DC OR they intend each caster to carry a little of each capability

When I first started playing DDO, I thought the latter was what I was going to have to build - a little debuff, a little high-dc offensive. Turns out high-DC offensive was what stuck in the game up till now.

I can already hear the gnashing of teeth if they force the average wiz/sorc to have to use real strategy and water their characters down across two specialties like that.

[BladeTricks]

Yup, I enjoy my no-save procs in Shiradi. Much less gear grinding and don't need 12 past lives either. How long will it last?....

[WruntJunior]

Yup, I enjoy my no-save procs in Shiradi. Much less gear grinding and don't need 12 past lives either. How long will it last?....

Probably a few updates until HP gets super-inflated again compared to damage, and DCs become more accessible.

[Thrudh]

Cut will saves by 5 across the EE board I'd say, it shouldn't cause any disaster now that EIN gets fixed too.

Cast hypnotism before you cast your mass hold, and you can cut will saves by 3.

[Thrudh]

I think my problem with this discussion is the definition of "reliable"

Many look for the "No Fail" DC as being reliable, others 80%, still others define it as being better than 50% chance.

This.

[Zachski]

If you need to debuff enemies to be able to land your spells, then it seems to me that the answer is to debuff enemies before landing your spells. If that doesn't work, use non-DC based spells.

You see enemies whose saves are too high to defeat with DC-based spells, I see opportunity.

Considering wizards are supposed to be the kings of versatility, it has always seemed kind of a shame that we've found a comfortable niche in necromancy and enchantment.

Now it sounds like the devs are shaking things up, and I like it.

Sadly, they'll probably nerf the saves in response to the outrage.

[Loriac]

Two things:

i.
This could be seen coming a mile away. Melee players in DDO absolutely hate save-or-die spells, as their forte is in attriting hp. These boards have seen countless campaigns calling for caster nerfs based on instakill spells. Funnily enough, when it was monks doing it with EIN, suddenly it became ok... This is one of the reasons I think that if you want to avoid frustration as a caster in this game, you basically have to go the arcane dps route. Sorc used to be that, but now with EDs shiradi offers the best damage/sp ratio.

ii.
There is a way to circumvent the current mechanics, and I hate to even bring it up and draw the analogy, but current DCs are getting to the point that AC used to be at before the AC pass. I could see a wholesale change to DC mechanics that substituted caster DC for AB, and mob save for AC (with different multipliers in effect obviously). The point is that if you compare a fully geared vet, they're hitting necro DCs in the mid-50s. Meanwhile an average player is probably at least 10DCs behind them. Add in a bit more DC enhancing loot in the next couple of updates, and its quite possible that we'll start to see differences of 15-20 on DCs between players. Once it gets to that point, the d20 mechanics are essentially dead. Things get even worse when you compare tactical feat DCs vs. spell DCs, and if you adjust for one, the other is going to be imbalanced.

Another way of approaching this is to recognise that save-or-die is an alternative system to hp, and perhaps set things up so that mob DCs for a particular save are lowered every time the mob has to save against it. This is sort of what they did in lite fashion with hypno and various other debuffs. Going down this route, you end up with save-or-die casters either getting lucky on the first cast, or at least not completely wasting sp because the second and subsequent casts are more likely to hit. This approach would likely need instakill spell costs to be substantially lowered, just as costs for nukes were lowered a while back.


In truth, I don't like either approach. DCs have got out of hand, particularly non-arcane DCs. Monks can hit mid-60s tactical feat DCs, and because these use the same underlying save as arcane spells, you end up in a situation where either one is going to be overpowered or the other useless. I suspect that because Turbine can't now fix the root cause (i.e. take the various +DC loot out of the game, revise enhancements so as not to give such huge modifiers etc) we'll end up with a variant of the new AC system.

[Vellrad]

Well, I remember my 52DC necro worked quite well in high road content.
Of course, as a palemaster in magister I used a lot of free slas, so this was very often -5 saves, so this helped a lot.

[voodoogroves]

Save-or-die and save-or-suck spells have long been a balance problems for all GMs.

One way to change that is to inflate saves / defenses / etc. as well as HP, then put more math into the HP/damage curve (which is easier to predict and control, and suffers from less wacky variation based on limited dice range).

[Thrudh]

Learn how to debuff, and win.

Wizards have a ton of spell slots for a reason.

[smatt]

Well, what this realyl comes down to is that some people think becasue they max out everything from gear to enhancements etc.. And then put themselves on the pedestal of awesome as a player.. Well everything no matter what should be automatic... Or they become used to the automatic, and then when it's not.. Well..... :rolleyes:

[WruntJunior]

Well, what this realyl comes down to is that some people think becasue they max out everything from gear to enhancements etc.. And then put themselves on the pedestal of awesome as a player.. Well everything no matter what should be automatic... Or they become used to the automatic, and then when it's not.. Well..... :rolleyes:

Or maybe people don't like having to put much more effort into one type of caster to be less effective than a different, very easy to make caster.

[BladeTricks]

Two things:

i.
This could be seen coming a mile away. Melee players in DDO absolutely hate save-or-die spells, as their forte is in attriting hp. These boards have seen countless campaigns calling for caster nerfs based on instakill spells. Funnily enough, when it was monks doing it with EIN, suddenly it became ok... This is one of the reasons I think that if you want to avoid frustration as a caster in this game, you basically have to go the arcane dps route. Sorc used to be that, but now with EDs shiradi offers the best damage/sp ratio.

ii.
There is a way to circumvent the current mechanics, and I hate to even bring it up and draw the analogy, but current DCs are getting to the point that AC used to be at before the AC pass. I could see a wholesale change to DC mechanics that substituted caster DC for AB, and mob save for AC (with different multipliers in effect obviously). The point is that if you compare a fully geared vet, they're hitting necro DCs in the mid-50s. Meanwhile an average player is probably at least 10DCs behind them. Add in a bit more DC enhancing loot in the next couple of updates, and its quite possible that we'll start to see differences of 15-20 on DCs between players. Once it gets to that point, the d20 mechanics are essentially dead. Things get even worse when you compare tactical feat DCs vs. spell DCs, and if you adjust for one, the other is going to be imbalanced.

Another way of approaching this is to recognise that save-or-die is an alternative system to hp, and perhaps set things up so that mob DCs for a particular save are lowered every time the mob has to save against it. This is sort of what they did in lite fashion with hypno and various other debuffs. Going down this route, you end up with save-or-die casters either getting lucky on the first cast, or at least not completely wasting sp because the second and subsequent casts are more likely to hit. This approach would likely need instakill spell costs to be substantially lowered, just as costs for nukes were lowered a while back.


In truth, I don't like either approach. DCs have got out of hand, particularly non-arcane DCs. Monks can hit mid-60s tactical feat DCs, and because these use the same underlying save as arcane spells, you end up in a situation where either one is going to be overpowered or the other useless. I suspect that because Turbine can't now fix the root cause (i.e. take the various +DC loot out of the game, revise enhancements so as not to give such huge modifiers etc) we'll end up with a variant of the new AC system.

Very insightful. It is true that since the melee tactical DC's have crept up into the 70s, the d20 system looks again very limiting. :(

[Ape_Man]

Or just run an arcane in shiradi. >_> Or a good melee in LD, or an AA in FotW.

Pretty much, you get it.

There are multiple paths that work great in the higher-level EEs but DC-based casters isn't one of them.

[Ape_Man]

Or maybe people don't like having to put much more effort into one type of caster to be less effective than a different, very easy to make caster.

That's it exactly, it's like building for AC used to be. It was pointless so why bother?

[fco-karatekid]

Well, what this realyl comes down to is that some people think becasue they max out everything from gear to enhancements etc.. And then put themselves on the pedestal of awesome as a player.. Well everything no matter what should be automatic... Or they become used to the automatic, and then when it's not.. Well..... :rolleyes:

And this is one of the things that has bothered me about casters since I've been playing - everyone min-maxes, and that became this one-dimensional set of casters we have now. I've not called for nerfing of casters, but rather making it attractive to use something other than 1-3 total spells in their arsenal.

Devs tried with doubling range of rays, etc; but that's not really enough to make it worth splitting your character up into broader horizons. People were all-firewall-all-the-time when that was where development time had been put, then all-necro, etc. The savants helped, but people were still VERY specialized and limited... they became what another player in chat the other day called "Shadebarian Bluebars". I've never played WOW, but from what I understand, the single-function build became the norm.

That's a shame, given the neat stuff that COULD be accomplished with a broader range and utility of spells (or even enhancements). 's prolly why I've stuck to more versatile builds after playing my one arcane.

[danotmano1998]

I suspect that because Turbine can't now fix the root cause (i.e. take the various +DC loot out of the game, revise enhancements so as not to give such huge modifiers etc) we'll end up with a variant of the new AC system.

Good post!
There is some food for thought in that one.

[sirgog]

Instakills played a significant role in the one successful run so far of EE Fall of Truth. (There's not much to instakill, but what there is needs to die fast).

[Vordax]

Devs tried with doubling range of rays, etc; but that's not really enough to make it worth splitting your character up into broader horizons. People were all-firewall-all-the-time when that was where development time had been put, then all-necro, etc. The savants helped, but people were still VERY specialized and limited... they became what another player in chat the other day called "Shadebarian Bluebars". I've never played WOW, but from what I understand, the single-function build became the norm.


The problem with generalizing a caster is then you are no good at anything, and absolutely useless in EE. They set the DC bar so high in EE that if you don't specialize then you may as well not play EE. I know with a 56 DC, my wail will kill 1-2 mobs, and thats after wail has de-buffed a level or 2 on them. My enchant DC is about a 50, no room for the enchant feats, have completionist and wizard past life instead, even with a hypno first, holds hardly ever land, and web is useless at a 50DC.

With the D20 system there just may not be a good middle ground, but it appears DPS casting is currently the best way to go.

[danlan]

It makes no sense that a dc wiz with 3wiz3fvs3clr past lives performs worse than a 2nd life sorc or a first life shiradi AM in many occasions in EE quests. It feels frustrated and unfair to those who has spent so much time in tr farming.

Currently DC vs DPS is heavily unbalanced in EE. Instead of inflating the mobs hp (which nerfs dps), what I suggest is to reduce all mobs saves by 5 in EE quests to make DC casting viable in EE.

[Ape_Man]

If you need to debuff enemies to be able to land your spells, then it seems to me that the answer is to debuff enemies before landing your spells. If that doesn't work, use non-DC based spells.

You see enemies whose saves are too high to defeat with DC-based spells, I see opportunity.

Considering wizards are supposed to be the kings of versatility, it has always seemed kind of a shame that we've found a comfortable niche in necromancy and enchantment.

Now it sounds like the devs are shaking things up, and I like it.

Sadly, they'll probably nerf the saves in response to the outrage.

It's not "versatility" if the high DC option simply isn't an option because no matter what you do it's not reliable.

[Ape_Man]

The problem with generalizing a caster is then you are no good at anything, and absolutely useless in EE. They set the DC bar so high in EE that if you don't specialize then you may as well not play EE. I know with a 56 DC, my wail will kill 1-2 mobs, and thats after wail has de-buffed a level or 2 on them. My enchant DC is about a 50, no room for the enchant feats, have completionist and wizard past life instead, even with a hypno first, holds hardly ever land, and web is useless at a 50DC.

With the D20 system there just may not be a good middle ground, but it appears DPS casting is currently the best way to go.


Correction . . . they set the bar so high that even it you are maxxed you're still better off pursuing another option. Force-specced Shiradi is looking pretty good.

[Ape_Man]

It makes no sense that a dc wiz with 3wiz3fvs3clr past lives performs worse than a 2nd life sorc or a first life shiradi AM in many occasions in EE quests. It feels frustrated and unfair to those who has spent so much time in tr farming.

Currently DC vs DPS is heavily unbalanced in EE. Instead of inflating the mobs hp (which nerfs dps), what I suggest is to reduce all mobs saves by 5 in EE quests to make DC casting viable in EE.

See . . . I'm not sure that's needed either, but there should be a weak-save. Always.

[Dolphious]

See . . . I'm not sure that's needed either, but there should be a weak-save. Always.

I can definitely agree with that. It's fine to say you shouldn't be able to spam the same few necro spells and kill everything, but they should all have some real save weakness.

As far as force speced shiradis go.... Enjoy it while it lasts....

[danlan]

See . . . I'm not sure that's needed either, but there should be a weak-save. Always.

I think reducing EE mobs all saves by 4-5 makes total sense.

Remember from Update 9 all epic mobs's saves had been up by 4 points, but at that time mobs' saves are no where as ridiculous as today's EE.

Since update 14, EE trashes saves increase at a much faster rate than their hp or player's dc, and this becomes especially obvious in update 16 (and from what I have heard, even more in update 17). To keep the balance between Spell DPS and DC, I would say it is necessary to revert the changes made in update 9.

It just seems totally unreasonable and unacceptable to me to allow a first life WF AM Shiradi to perform as well or even better than a DC wiz with 9 past lives at the highest difficulty setting. Something definitely should be done.

[AzB]

I have to say as a melee player it is quite disheartening to run with casters that just plow through epic elite mobs with wail, finger and even PK while you attempt to score a few hits before the mob is instakilled. I hope this isn't the response to help even out casters and melee. It was just starting to get close (at least in epics).



It's especially frustrating when you've been wailing on some multi-thousand hp monster for about 40 swings, and the Wiz/Sorc just one shots it as he's jogging past on the way to his next conquest.

Remove about 70% of the shrines and all the mnemonic potions and watch the chronic nukers slow down their roll. As it stands now, the shrines are perfectly spaced so they can fod/wail/pk/cometfall/whatever essentially every mob and make it to the next shrine just in time. There's no need to pace the spell casting, so they don't. And melee becomes largely redundant except maybe as a meat shield for the casters.

And this is coming from a guy with several wizzes and wiz past lives. I quit playing them because it was simply too easy.

Try a bard if you want a challenge. Absolutely no offensive power at all! Takes a real man (with a lot of patience) to play one.

[Vellrad]

Try a bard if you want a challenge. Absolutely no offensive power at all! Takes a real man (with a lot of patience) to play one.

Or multiclass, drednought, cleave and celestia...

[danlan]

It's especially frustrating when you've been wailing on some multi-thousand hp monster for about 40 swings, and the Wiz/Sorc just one shots it as he's jogging past on the way to his next conquest.

Remove about 70% of the shrines and all the mnemonic potions and watch the chronic nukers slow down their roll. As it stands now, the shrines are perfectly spaced so they can fod/wail/pk/cometfall/whatever essentially every mob and make it to the next shrine just in time. There's no need to pace the spell casting, so they don't. And melee becomes largely redundant except maybe as a meat shield for the casters.

And this is coming from a guy with several wizzes and wiz past lives. I quit playing them because it was simply too easy.

Try a bard if you want a challenge. Absolutely no offensive power at all! Takes a real man (with a lot of patience) to play one.

You are probably referring to pre-u13 epic or today's eh (which is a joke), EE is quite a different story.

[Feithlin]

See . . . I'm not sure that's needed either, but there should be a weak-save. Always.

This. What's interesting is to have to search for the weakness and adapt to it. That would force to switch between spells, abilities, etc.
This could be extended further than raw saves: mobs could have different saves for spells, tactical feats, traps (in hope it'll work better with the enh. pass), etc.; different absorptions to elements and physical damage; etc.

Edit: A good way to go could be to make more bridges between melees and casters. There are already some (imp. shattermantle, fort debuffs, etc.) but it could be extended further. This could to a sequence like: melees debuff, caster 1) kills or 2) CC and melees kill. The important thing would be that in a single quest, there would be both 1) and 2) (some mobs -- but not all -- could have a high elemental absorption and deathward, but low enough will saves to make hold the best option; or alternatively some could have big hp and too high saves to be affected directly, but manageable after debuffs thus making instakill after debuff the best option, etc.).

This means that we need more debuffs for melees, either from special weapons or abilities (feats/enhancements/EDs, like a trap reducing will saves, etc.). Some EDs could be adapted this way (caster EDs providing abilities to debuff from melee, especially in the first tiers, so they could be twisted, or very strong in the last tiers to make the choice of this ED effective for the team).

[danlan]

Bear in mind in update 9 epic mobs' all three saves were increased by 4 points.

Take EE update 16 quests as an example, from my experience although trashes tend to have very high saves on all three, they also have one or two saves which were EXCEPTIONALLY high (for example, EE guards may need to be energy drained 2-3 times before they can be fingered with 54 necro DC; while with hypnotism SLA casted, they can be mass-held reasonably with 54 enchantment dc).

Therefore instead of differentiating weak saves on various kinds of mobs which may be a heavy workload for devs, I think it may be more appropriate and easily implementable to simply revert the changes introduced in update 9 on EE settings only, i.e to decrease EE mobs's all three saves by 4-5 points.

[Tid12]

While I agree with the whole concept "Saves are too high in U16", this isn't by far the end of anything. I've seen Cetuss (Durnak) play his wizard in EE High Road and he was doing just fine really. He didn't need to "Drain twice" to land a FoD or wail, that's an exaggeration.

Shiradi might be effective and easy to build but a well played-well built Wiz/Sorc trumps it by a mile.

[danlan]

While I agree with the whole concept "Saves are too high in U16", this isn't by far the end of anything. I've seen Cetuss (Durnak) play his wizard in EE High Road and he was doing just fine really. He didn't need to "Drain twice" to land a FoD or wail, that's an exaggeration.

Shiradi might be effective and easy to build but a well played-well built Wiz/Sorc trumps it by a mile.

What is his necro DC at that time (i.e is that just a one time run so that he ate store pot + abishai cookies)? I have done EE Orb farm a lot of times and there is no way that I can insta-kill guard/melee mobs "just fine" with 54 necro dc. I usually have to energy drain the melee mobs at lease twice before I can finger them.

What I can also tell is that with 50 enchantment dc and constant hypnotism SLA, I can probably dance a few melee mobs for a relatively short time and they get off mass hold pretty quick really. With 54 enchantment dc+hypno SLA, they can be cc'ed reasonably well though.

The thing is shiradi's power is unaffected by mob's saves. Wiz/Sorc both get a strong hit from high saves even with the most past lives and the best gear. Shiradi is also incredibly sp effecient and they do not need any past lives or hard-to-acquire gears to boost power, which imho makes the spell DPS vs DC system quite unbalanced now.

[Badnade]

This. What's interesting is to have to search for the weakness and adapt to it. That would force to switch between spells, abilities, etc.
This could be extended further than raw saves: mobs could have different saves for spells, tactical feats, traps (in hope it'll work better with the enh. pass), etc.; different absorptions to elements and physical damage; etc.

Edit: A good way to go could be to make more bridges between melees and casters. There are already some (imp. shattermantle, fort debuffs, etc.) but it could be extended further. This could to a sequence like: melees debuff, caster 1) kills or 2) CC and melees kill. The important thing would be that in a single quest, there would be both 1) and 2) (some mobs -- but not all -- could have a high elemental absorption and deathward, but low enough will saves to make hold the best option; or alternatively some could have big hp and too high saves to be affected directly, but manageable after debuffs thus making instakill after debuff the best option, etc.).

This means that we need more debuffs for melees, either from special weapons or abilities (feats/enhancements/EDs, like a trap reducing will saves, etc.). Some EDs could be adapted this way (caster EDs providing abilities to debuff from melee, especially in the first tiers, so they could be twisted, or very strong in the last tiers to make the choice of this ED effective for the team).


^^ This.

One of the biggest things I feel melee are lacking, are form of attack options.
Improves sunder and Trip are great, and every melee should have at least one IMHO.
But how about bullrush too? Just like the mino animation. Knocked back, prone, etc..
Barbarian warcry.. stacks with intimidate, shaken or feared, lower will save.
Improved grapple for monks. Lowers AC, Reflex, movement of foe, you take same penaltys.
Rogue tumbling past mobs slows attack animation a bit, from distraction.

I want more ways to impact the field as a melee.

[smatt]

And this is one of the things that has bothered me about casters since I've been playing - everyone min-maxes, and that became this one-dimensional set of casters we have now. I've not called for nerfing of casters, but rather making it attractive to use something other than 1-3 total spells in their arsenal.

Devs tried with doubling range of rays, etc; but that's not really enough to make it worth splitting your character up into broader horizons. People were all-firewall-all-the-time when that was where development time had been put, then all-necro, etc. The savants helped, but people were still VERY specialized and limited... they became what another player in chat the other day called "Shadebarian Bluebars". I've never played WOW, but from what I understand, the single-function build became the norm.

That's a shame, given the neat stuff that COULD be accomplished with a broader range and utility of spells (or even enhancements). 's prolly why I've stuck to more versatile builds after playing my one arcane.


Well, I'm not really an eggs all in one basket builder myself..... But you know too each their own... What I don't like is the build profesionals, the jerks who say you have to do this you have to do that, otherwise you suck and you're an idiot..... You know the type.... We see them here on the forums all the time.....

That being said, I don't see any problems with DC casting at this point....

[AtomicMew]

While I agree with the whole concept "Saves are too high in U16", this isn't by far the end of anything. I've seen Cetuss (Durnak) play his wizard in EE High Road and he was doing just fine really. He didn't need to "Drain twice" to land a FoD or wail, that's an exaggeration.

Shiradi might be effective and easy to build but a well played-well built Wiz/Sorc trumps it by a mile.

Sorry but youre just wrong completely. It's very easy to illustrate both in practice and theory.

In theory a shiradi specced wiz or sorc can kill a single target mob in ~10-20 SP. A necro based pale master takes 50-100 SP to take down a single mob - less reliably and on a higher recharge. (The case of AoE is the same) In practice: my medium geared DPS sorc with crappy DCs has an easier time soloing EEs compared to my 58 DC completionist palemaster with +5s tomes and literally the best gear in the game. This is just wrong. Most people who bother to solo EEs on a regular basis are not doing so on DC casters, they're doing so on shiradi or draconic.

There was massive forum uproar when Turbine tried to nerf instakills by altering the spells and mechanics themselves, and they ended up with a minor nerf that was actually situationally a buff. So what they did instead to truly nerf instakills was to make mobs saves impossibly high. The nerf to instakills was done silently and forumites just didnt notice because most forumites (including me) are too busy foruming and posturing about how good they are instead of actually playing the game. The people who did notice didn't bother posting because they were too busy soloing EEs and making tons of virtual wealth.

[Nitesco]

On my first life Wizard, I'm looking at 3 x Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard and Favored Soul past lives, every ED maxed and twisted, highest stat and fate point tomes, every rare and store purchased consumable and best-in-slot gear just to be able to land DC based spells more than say 75% of the time. That is pretty depressing and would require more patience than I have.

Because that is an awful lot of work just to be able to fulfill the most basic DC caster role in the latest content. That is literally years of daily grind for the average person, just to be able to function in new quests. I would hazard a guess that people who have achieved this constitute about 0.001% of the overall players who have ever played DDO. In truth it's probably way lower.

[SirValentine]

it's like building for AC used to be. It was pointless so why bother?

Wait, what?

OK, I've never had an AC build, before or after the change, so I may be clueless here:

I thought people who did build and gear-grind for it got untouchable-except-on-a-20 AC under the old system, and had that nerfed out from under them with the new system.

I sure seem to recall under the old system that good tanks in end-game raids pretty hardly even needed healing because the bosses couldn't even hit them, except those natural 20s.

[SirValentine]

Edit: A good way to go could be to make more bridges between melees and casters. There are already some (imp. shattermantle, fort debuffs, etc.)


Nice idea, but not sure it's one the devs share. They're planning to nerf Cursespewing & Improved Cursespewing to only debuff on a vorpal strike, instead of on every hit. Oh, but it'll do some extra damage.

[SirValentine]

On my first life Wizard, I'm looking at 3 x Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard and Favored Soul past lives, every ED maxed and twisted, highest stat and fate point tomes, every rare and store purchased consumable and best-in-slot gear just to be able to land DC based spells more than say 75% of the time. That is pretty depressing and would require more patience than I have.

Because that is an awful lot of work just to be able to fulfill the most basic DC caster role in the latest content.


That is depressing, and does indicate a problem.

I feel that a well-built first-life character with good (not necessarily the absolute best, but good) gear, a maxxed out appropriate ED (but not twists), should be able to to an adequate (but not uber) job of fulfilling their most basic role. Regardless of class.

So, yes, a first-life wizard OUGHT to be able to be a passable DC caster. All the uber gear, extra past lives, extra twists, should not be to get from useless to okay, but from okay to great.

[justagame]

That is depressing, and does indicate a problem.

I feel that a well-built first-life character with good (not necessarily the absolute best, but good) gear, a maxxed out appropriate ED (but not twists), should be able to to an adequate (but not uber) job of fulfilling their most basic role. Regardless of class.

So, yes, a first-life wizard OUGHT to be able to be a passable DC caster. All the uber gear, extra past lives, extra twists, should not be to get from useless to okay, but from okay to great.

It's worse for divine DC's IMO. The gap between wizard DC's and everyone else is such that, if a fully-buffed wizard with multiple caster past lives and the best boosts from ED can only have spells hit a little over half the time, then a divine simply has no chance with DC-based spells. It's back to healing, and DP, for a divine caster.

It reminds me a bit of the early epics. I almost stopped playing the game it was so unbelievably boring. I had both cleric and FVS characters with maxed out WIS (at the time), DC items, feats, etc. and on epics, it was just heal, and swing a woo woo stick. Clerics/FVS don't really have nukage the way that sorcs do. So the wider the DC gap becomes between wizards and other casters, the more and more the endgame for non-melee divines becomes, to borrow a phrase from turbine, "heal and hide behind a rock."

I sincerely hope that's not the case, and not the intent of Turbine.

[smatt]

That is depressing, and does indicate a problem.

I feel that a well-built first-life character with good (not necessarily the absolute best, but good) gear, a maxxed out appropriate ED (but not twists), should be able to to an adequate (but not uber) job of fulfilling their most basic role. Regardless of class.

So, yes, a first-life wizard OUGHT to be able to be a passable DC caster. All the uber gear, extra past lives, extra twists, should not be to get from useless to okay, but from okay to great.

*Sigh They aren't useless.... But they won't be all that effective in the highest level content in the game. And they shouldn't be... Why else would you have past lives, etc etc etc... If you can attain everything with a first life character with less than the best gear etc etc...

It's not an all or nothing proposition..... Despite the expectations of some. The range of abilities within the classes is huge, the advantages and disadvantages is spread very wide now. The problems only come about when people try to pigeon hole in one build, one style of play etc.

There's a lot of ways to skin a cat.... But if you take the attitude of the OP, well then it's all or nothing..... Which takes DDO back to a borefest.... It's been climbing out of that hole.... I hope it continues to do so... From my POV....

[Ape_Man]

Wait, what?

OK, I've never had an AC build, before or after the change, so I may be clueless here:

I thought people who did build and gear-grind for it got untouchable-except-on-a-20 AC under the old system, and had that nerfed out from under them with the new system.

I sure seem to recall under the old system that good tanks in end-game raids pretty hardly even needed healing because the bosses couldn't even hit them, except those natural 20s.

Was referring to epics. having 100 AC or having 10 in the old system was effectively the same.

[Ape_Man]

So, yes, a first-life wizard OUGHT to be able to be a passable DC caster. All the uber gear, extra past lives, extra twists, should not be to get from useless to okay, but from okay to great.

Regarding necro/enchant if gear is equal first-life casters are only down 1 DC. Spell pen and other stuff is a different story but with the Drow content being almost irrelevant at this point I'm not sure that's an issue.

[Zerkul]

This isn't a d00000mm!!! thread, just an observation.

With the High Road pack and what appears to be on Epic Gianthold mobs saves have gone up. They've gone up a lot. They've gone up enough that maxed-out DC casters cannot land spells reliably without enough debuffing that it's just not feasible.

Traditionally mobs would have a weak save. Casters would have weak fort and high will, brutes would have high fort and weak will. As seen in High Road the mobs have both high Fort, Will, and Reflex saves. Reports from Lamania show this trend continues with all saves even higher, i can't confirm this so correct me if I'm wrong.

So a simple question to Turbine . . . do you simply want to kill off DC-casting as a viable play style? That's what it looks like. Casters have other options, is that what you want us pursuing?
I play a 49 DC enchantment sorcerer. I played it on Lamannia in Epic Elite Crucible and Epic Elite Cabal for One and on live in all the High Road Content.


49 DC enchantment works 80%+ of the time on will-weak mobs (archers, melee type-mobs usually) with debuffing (usually just Crushing Despair with heighten or sometimes Hypnotism without heighten and Crushin Despair with heighten) in High Road Quests;
49 DC enchantment still works quite good with debuffing in the two EE Gianthold quests i tried (cannot quantify how much but still working).

The crowd control made with 49 DC is never perfect but enough reliable.

A different story is for necro DCs (mine is 44).


With 44 necro in EEHigh Road quests i need at least two energy drains (total of 4d4 negative levels) to land a finger of death on archers or sometimes just one to land a finger of death on casters.
Don't even try 44DC necro in gianthold content because the majority of mobs in the pack has high fortitude saves.


Overall i think turbine is orienting DC spellcasting toward debuffing or fail to land spells for both wizards and sorcerers.

[WruntJunior]

Regarding necro/enchant if gear is equal first-life casters are only down 1 DC. Spell pen and other stuff is a different story but with the Drow content being almost irrelevant at this point I'm not sure that's an issue.

And a first-life wizard can go another DC down to get the spell pen to use against most drow (I believe a first-life elf could hit 54, as my drow wizard was at 53 with 1x FvS and 1x Wizard past life).

A fully maxed-out caster should be working at least 85-90% of the time as a DC caster without having to do significant debuffing or use many short-term items...it makes no sense that people with COMPLETIONIST palemasters (in other words, the highest necro DCs sustainably obtainable) are not hitting those levels of success. DC casting should be a comparable option to DPS casting, and I'm not saying DPS casting needs a nerf - instead, DC casting needs some sort of bump. I personally see no problem with dropping saves by 5 on all enemies, and keeping saves at sane levels like this fixes most of the issues.

Note that this wouldn't even be much of an issue if enemies actually had a weak save.

[SirValentine]

Regarding necro/enchant if gear is equal first-life casters are only down 1 DC.


Shouldn't that be 2 for Necro, 3 for Enchant?

I figure, gear being equal, a fully-PLed toon should be at least 2 points of DC ahead. More depending on the school.

- Wizard active PL
- Completionist
- (Enchantment only) Bard active PL
- (Evocation only) 3xSorc passive PL
- (Conjuration only) 3xClr passive PL



Spell pen and other stuff is a different story


Yup! +9 Spell pen is amazing, and there's all sorts of nice other survivability perks to be had, too. Even if you don't care about EE Drow, +9 Spell Pen from passive PLs maybe frees up a feat slot or two, that could be +2 DC in an additional school.

[SirValentine]

Overall i think turbine is orienting DC spellcasting toward debuffing or fail to land spells for both wizards and sorcerers.

Well, like others have said, if debuffs+spell do take more SP & time than nuking the same mob to death, it really would invalidate DC spellcasting as a method.

[smatt]

Well, like others have said, if debuffs+spell do take more SP & time than nuking the same mob to death, it really would invalidate DC spellcasting as a method. No it doesn't, well I guess it does if your only measure is "Must go fast" or "Must have it NOW" "I did it in 3.12409543 minutes" etc. I understand that is the point for many.. But certainly not all... Jsut as some expect 100% success and others don't.

[WruntJunior]

Shouldn't that be 2 for Necro, 3 for Enchant?

I figure, gear being equal, a fully-PLed toon should be at least 2 points of DC ahead. More depending on the school.

- Wizard active PL
- Completionist
- (Enchantment only) Bard active PL
- (Evocation only) 3xSorc passive PL
- (Conjuration only) 3xClr passive PL

Many people don't mean completionist when they're talking about normal pastlives for casters....and few people can fit in the bard active PL. That usually means that a multi-TR wizard is really for spell pen (while gaining +1 DC from wiz past life).


Yup! +9 Spell pen is amazing, and there's all sorts of nice other survivability perks to be had, too. Even if you don't care about EE Drow, +9 Spell Pen from passive PLs maybe frees up a feat slot or two, that could be +2 DC in an additional school.

+9 spell pen from past lives would mean I could drop epic spell pen and still effectively hit most spell resistance checks if I take my sorc back to wizard. >_> Planning to do the 3 more past lives if I ever do go back to wizard.

[WruntJunior]

No it doesn't, well I guess it does if your only measure is "Must go fast" or "Must have it NOW" "I did it in 3.12409543 minutes" etc. I understand that is the point for many.. But certainly not all... Jsut as some expect 100% success and others don't.

How about "must not spend 5x the SP killing one enemy"?

[Beethoven]

A good way to go could be to make more bridges between melees and casters. There are already some (imp. shattermantle, fort debuffs, etc.) but it could be extended further. This could to a sequence like: melees debuff, caster 1) kills or 2) CC and melees kill.

You mean like we have it right now? You don't need multiple past life's to beat Spell Penetration if melees would be hitting things with Shattermantle/Improved Shattermantle and you would not need to farm out every single piece of gear, ability and twist to beat saves if melee would be hitting stuff with Cursespewing/Improved Cursespewing/Wounding (to reduce fort saves).


The important thing would be that in a single quest, there would be both 1) and 2) (some mobs -- but not all -- could have a high elemental absorption and deathward, but low enough will saves to make hold the best option;

That pretty much describes epics when they were first released and people were up in arms how Turbine's fail design rendered pretty much every caster obsolete shy of Enchanters.



This means that we need more debuffs for melees, either from special weapons or abilities (feats/enhancements/EDs, like a trap reducing will saves, etc.). Some EDs could be adapted this way (caster EDs providing abilities to debuff from melee, especially in the first tiers, so they could be twisted, or very strong in the last tiers to make the choice of this ED effective for the team).

History has shown though if it costs AP, Feats, Destiny Points/Slots or lowers the dps by either breaking the attack chain and/or taking up the prefix/suffix slot of a weapon people won't use it. Instead they will come to the forum and complain about how DC casting is dead.

The only thing that could bring DC casting back is either buffing it (or reducing saves) - which, in turn will have people up in arms how Turbine killed sorcerer - or gimping sorcerer to the extreme they are no longer viable either.

It's not true that DC casters are dead or useless. It's not really hard to get them to a point were they are virtual demi-gods in (most) eN and eH. EE is were things become difficult for them. It is possible to get them to were they are potent even there but it requires a /lot/ (in terms of twists, gear and past life).

What creates the real problem (in my no-so-humble opinion) is that it requires a lot more effort and work to make a DC caster viable for Epic than it does for, say, a Shiradi or Draconic Incarnation and for all that you actually don't have a lot more to show for ; the effort to get a DC caster there is disproportional getting there (you are not really /that/ much more powerful but you sure put a lot more work into it).

To me the issue here are the Epic Destinies though, the DC boost of the Magister Destiny is lackluster compared to the DPS increase Shiradi and Draconic Incarnation provide. What should be done is revisit the Magister Destiny and boost their abilities in both overcome SR and increase Spell DCs of favored schools. Give them things like an aura/stance which decreases SR in a radius around them by a significant amount, have spells of their chosen school grant them a (temporary) points were each stack of, say, 2 gives them a +1 DC to spells of the school, etc.

There is a concern about that becoming too powerful they could make it different stances were the Magister has to choose if the wants to go for Spell Pen (or reducing SR) or boosting DCs.

[smatt]

How about "must not spend 5x the SP killing one enemy"?


Exagerating much?

[Zerkul]

Well, like others have said, if debuffs+spell do take more SP & time than nuking the same mob to death, it really would invalidate DC spellcasting as a method.
... and that's a win for Shiradi's Champion force spec builds with 0 pastlives behind and with no save spells. Really depressing.

[count_spicoli]

Woah. What are we talking about here? IN a strong group right now in EE high road a enchant specc'd Archmage is invaluable. i can assure that my discos with a sla hypno thrown are landing pretty much 80% of the time. And the ones who break free or save can be stunned and tripped by the melee or drained down for a finger. I think people are stuck in the old school way of thinking too much that i want to solo the hardest quests by just wailing and fod my way thru it. I DO NOT WANT A NERF ON THIS! Shiradis IMO make a mess of quests like stay at the in because there is no CC and things are flying around punishing everybody. Magistar is fine +3 to dc's in school of choice quick a$$ cooldowns on enchant spells and 10% sp costs reduction. DPS is not the target of this destiny. Strong groups are highly recommended for EE and i dont think asking people to link gear and the like is out of the question for running those quests.

[Ape_Man]

Well, like others have said, if debuffs+spell do take more SP & time than nuking the same mob to death, it really would invalidate DC spellcasting as a method.

Yup.

[GermanicusMaximus]

It's worse for divine DC's IMO. The gap between wizard DC's and everyone else is such that, if a fully-buffed wizard with multiple caster past lives and the best boosts from ED can only have spells hit a little over half the time, then a divine simply has no chance with DC-based spells. It's back to healing, and DP, for a divine caster.

It reminds me a bit of the early epics. I almost stopped playing the game it was so unbelievably boring. I had both cleric and FVS characters with maxed out WIS (at the time), DC items, feats, etc. and on epics, it was just heal, and swing a woo woo stick. Clerics/FVS don't really have nukage the way that sorcs do. So the wider the DC gap becomes between wizards and other casters, the more and more the endgame for non-melee divines becomes, to borrow a phrase from turbine, "heal and hide behind a rock."

I sincerely hope that's not the case, and not the intent of Turbine.

I thought I was the only one who still tried to play a divine caster as anything other than a healbot :D

Of course you are right, divine caster DCs are in even worse shape than arcane DCs.

I still recall MajMal's "hide behind a phallic shaped rock" comment when CitW was being discussed. Its pretty clear that Turbine has gone out of its way to have divine casters only played as healbots. The lack of reasonable gear (CitW didn't even have any divine gear when first released), the gimping of light spell power, and the next to worthless divine epic destiny are just the tip of the iceberg when discussing what Turbine has intentionally done to divine casters.

That's not to say the situation is hopeless. My gimpy little 28 build point cleric (admittedly with nice gear and maxed epic destinies) has now soloed all but 3 of MotU quests on EE:

1) not going to try CitW :D
2) In the Belly of the Beast bugged out on back to back runs right before the arena floor was set to collapse, and I'm not going to check whether its going to go 3 for 3
3) Reclaiming the Rift is set for tonight

Epic destinies are your salvation. No, not the crappy divine caster one. There are plenty of ridiculously overpowered abilities in the other epic destinies that you can graft onto your divine caster. It simply requires some imagination. Once you stop running in groups (because, let's face it, in a group everyone just expects you to healbot them) you have plenty of time to

1) investigate all the epic destiny abilities (although some are so ridiculously overpowered its difficult to not use the word "exploits") available to you

2) learn to evaluate and game plan a quest so you can complete it using real strategy and tactics

Admittedly, it much easier to play an arcane (sorry, I won't stoop to playing a melee) rather than trying to graft something onto your divine, but the experience of doing it on your divine will simply make you a better player than the vast majority of people in this game. Once you have that knowledge, the arcane you end up playing will be the better for it.

[FranOhmsford]

History has shown though if it costs AP, Feats, Destiny Points/Slots or lowers the dps by either breaking the attack chain and/or taking up the prefix/suffix slot of a weapon people won't use it. Instead they will come to the forum and complain about how DC casting is dead.


I think the real issue here is the same as when Wizards were Mass Hold Bots - Just reversed!

Melees don't want to have to be debuffers only! Just like Arcanes don't want to have to be Hold Bots only!

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Another thing I'm thinking as I read this thread is:
How many of you are talking about Soloing?

I've got no issue with the devs making Mob Saves so high on Epic Elite that Soloing is made much harder for people.
I do feel that they should do this for EVERY class {and destiny} though - NERFING just one type of player is wrong!

If they want Epic Elite to be group only then they need to make it so that no one class/destiny can solo said difficulty!
BUT they simply CAN'T do this the way they are atm - One class at a time - BECAUSE people just move on to the class that CAN!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We also now have Druid and Artificer - Giving us a total of 13 Classes!
Meaning that even with Raids we cannot have a group with one of each class in it {sans multiclassing of course}.

If an Epic Elite quest requires a Bard for CC, a Rogue/Arti for traps, and Healing Divine that leaves just 3 spots for 10 other Classes!
One of which WILL be an Arcane I'll bet and at least One Heavy Melee too {Ftr/Barb/Paladin}.

This leaves us JUST ONE spot to play with and makes grouping harder!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly I feel that Epic Elite should be a continuance of the game NOT a game-changer!

When playing my Arcanes {Lvl 18 is as high as I've reached on any of them} and running Mindsunder I have to Enervate at least twice before Finger will work on ANYTHING!
16/2 PM/Rogue.
Oh and this is on NORMAL! {in a Duo with a Multiclass Melee and a pair of Divine Hires}.

DPSing is even worse as if I try Nuking I'm out of sps in Seconds!

Now I know I'm undergeared for DCs and I don't have RoSS/Torc/Bauble etc.
I also know I have two Rogue Levels!

BUT I feel that it's rather strange to be constantly respeccing my Arcanes as I level:
1-7 Specced for Melee
7-14 Specced for Firewall/Ice Storm/Acid Rain
14-18 Aaaaargh
18+ Have to Spec for DCs and Spell Pen OR farm out a Bauble AND a Torc!

If I want to play a Battle-Mage I feel that it should be viable to STAY a Battle-Mage from 1-25!
If I want to play an Enchanter-Sorc I feel that it should be viable to STAY an Enchanter-Sorc from 1-25!
If I want to play a Pale Master I feel that I shouldn't be taking AM1 till Level 12!
etc. etc.

[Dolphious]

SNIP

Heh, another rage quitter comes crawling back...

Complain, complain, complain, but there's still nothing better out there.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Heh, another rage quitter comes crawling back...


Er, I took a break over the summer when MotU was released with an ocean of bugs, and came back when summer was over (actually, it was the beginning of October before I had some free time to play). I have posted about this previously.

Can you link the post where I "rage quit"? If not, I see that the quality of your posts have not improved at all since June. I suspect the same lack of improvement in your game play.



Complain, complain, complain, but there's still nothing better out there.

There are all kinds of better things out there. I only bother with DDO on days in which I am bored. You should expand your life horizons, they seem incredibly constrained.

[WruntJunior]

Exagerating much?

Magic Missile costs 4 SP unmeta'd.

16-20 SP from magic missile is enough for a shiradi sorc to kill almost any single normal enemy in EE.

This isn't even touching the meta'd archmage shiradi, which can be much more damage due to free metas though at a longer cooldown (1 SP for fully meta'd magic missile, so 2-3 SP to kill an enemy).

Energy Drain costs 50 SP. Say you have to cast only 1 Energy Drain to finger an enemy (though even that's pretty lucky). Assuming nothing beyond Heighten on FoD, it costs 50 SP. That means for a shiradi sorc to kill one enemy, they'd spend around 20 SP wheras the DC wizard would spend 100. That is literally 1/5 the cost.

The archmage, btw, is closer to 1/50 the cost.

Edit: Note that if you have to spend more than one energy drain, or use other debuffs on top of that, your costs will go even higher in comparison.

[Dolphious]

Can you link the post where I "rage quit"? If not, I see that the quality of your posts have not improved at all since June. I suspect the same lack of improvement in your game play.


I have already stopped playing this game.
I see the honesty of your posts has not improved.

There are all kinds of better things out there. I only bother with DDO on days in which I am bored. You should expand your life horizons, they seem incredibly constrained.

You must be bored an awful lot to have maxed out your destiny XP... Sad that you spend so much time bored playing a game you hate.

[mute_mayhem]

When I was running my sorc through EE High Road when it first came out, I didn't have any problems getting my holds/disco balls to land at a 53 DC. I'd say 75%+, debuffing first made it almost no-fail.

Granted I've been gone for almost two months so things may have changed or something.

[SirValentine]

It's not really hard to get them to a point were they are virtual demi-gods in (most) eN and eH.


That statement is entirely true...about just about every kind of build there is. So it being true about DC-casters, too, isn't really that significant.

[danlan]

When I was running my sorc through EE High Road when it first came out, I didn't have any problems getting my holds/disco balls to land at a 53 DC. I'd say 75%+, debuffing first made it almost no-fail.

Granted I've been gone for almost two months so things may have changed or something.

Yes, that is similar to what I have observed, a 54 enchantment dc with debuffs can mass hold/disco EE u16 quests reasonably well. But may I ask what is your sorcerer evocation DC then?

As for AM, In order to achieve 55 enchantment dc, I have to make my necro dc at about 50-51 which is borderline useless in EE. And even though I have tr'ed clr 3 times and achieved 51 conjuration dc, the web is quite ineffective in most EE to tell the truth, which is so frustrating considering the effort devoted.

Now the situation is with debuff, if you choose enchantment as your primary focus it will work reasonably well in EE. Necromancy is probably a lot less effective though. Your secondary focus as a wizard will be borderline useless if necromancy, or very unreliable if enchantment or conjuration.

People do not like the fact that they have spent so much time in tr'ing 3 wiz/3 fvs/3 clr and acquire all the hard-to-get gears with the intention of mastering DC spell casting, just find out that they are forced to act as a one trick pony (well if necromany focus, probably even less than one trick) in EE. We are extremely unhappy with the fact athat a first life Shiradi AM or sorc with no gears can do quite well or better in EE.

[fork_aka_spoon]

more than a little confused by the OP, guildy of mine has high 40s enchant dc and it works just fine in high road after she casts crushing despair on the mobs, and seeing as properly built wizards will have 55-60 it at least one school im having trouble seeing where the problem is. its great that mobs are harder to cc now, if you want a cakewalk then run eh.

[slimkj]

I'd like to see the outcome of this, if there is one, be that DCs are bumped if needed, not Shiradi casters gutted. They don't seem too far from a Draconic Sorc to me, and whilst you can get some lovely crazy crits from time to time, I don't think they're OP if you look around at what other builds can do.

EDs have made many formerly difficult things viable, and it'd be shame if we singled them out one by one until play becomes mediocre. As I just said in another thread, I've not been enjoying playing so many builds and finding them all viable like this in quite some time.

[WruntJunior]

I'd like to see the outcome of this, if there is one, be that DCs are bumped if needed, not Shiradi casters gutted. They don't seem too far from a Draconic Sorc to me, and whilst you can get some lovely crazy crits from time to time, I don't think they're OP if you look around at what other builds can do.

EDs have made many formerly difficult things viable, and it'd be shame if we singled them out one by one until play becomes mediocre. As I just said in another thread, I've not been enjoying playing so many builds and finding them all viable like this in quite some time.

I agree. DC casters need to be buffed, not DPS casters nerfed - it's currently so much easier for me to solo an EE on my melee FvS or my AA than it was to even be useful on my DC caster, and that makes no sense.

[slimkj]

I agree. DC casters need to be buffed, not DPS casters nerfed - it's currently so much easier for me to solo an EE on my melee FvS or my AA than it was to even be useful on my DC caster, and that makes no sense.
Aye, my DC focused PM has been on the shelf since U14 holding my cookies. :/

(Though that also partly has to do with the numbers of casters I have and how I couldn't be arsed to regear them all after the SpPow changes.)

[smatt]

Magic Missile costs 4 SP unmeta'd.

16-20 SP from magic missile is enough for a shiradi sorc to kill almost any single normal enemy in EE.

This isn't even touching the meta'd archmage shiradi, which can be much more damage due to free metas though at a longer cooldown (1 SP for fully meta'd magic missile, so 2-3 SP to kill an enemy).

Energy Drain costs 50 SP. Say you have to cast only 1 Energy Drain to finger an enemy (though even that's pretty lucky). Assuming nothing beyond Heighten on FoD, it costs 50 SP. That means for a shiradi sorc to kill one enemy, they'd spend around 20 SP wheras the DC wizard would spend 100. That is literally 1/5 the cost.

The archmage, btw, is closer to 1/50 the cost.

Edit: Note that if you have to spend more than one energy drain, or use other debuffs on top of that, your costs will go even higher in comparison.

Shiradi should be nerfed if anything....

[Nitesco]

Make each level of Magister count as +1 DC as well as +1 spell pen.

[danlan]

Make each level of Magister count as +1 DC as well as +1 spell pen.

I think this is an incredibly good idea.

[WruntJunior]

I think this is an incredibly good idea.

Except it totally neglects divine, and locks DC arcanes into one ED.

[smatt]

more than a little confused by the OP, guildy of mine has high 40s enchant dc and it works just fine in high road after she casts crushing despair on the mobs, and seeing as properly built wizards will have 55-60 it at least one school im having trouble seeing where the problem is. its great that mobs are harder to cc now, if you want a cakewalk then run eh.


No no no... You see there's this crowd that thinks because they do this or that or have done those things that the mobs should just fall over as they walk by in the highest level EE content... Because the DDO Devs are reallt bad at balancing different abilities etc, they leave some that are WAY too over powered in the game for too long, and the same goes for the under powered... People get spoiled or blurry eyed... So the things that are under powered are ignored, and when they do get around to adjusting the thigns that are over pwoered.. The tears fly in all directions.

There certainly seems to be some balance issues in the ED system... But mob save Dc's isn't a problem... IMO.... But I'm just one person...

[Nitesco]

Except it totally neglects divine, and locks DC arcanes into one ED.

Wizards are all about DC generally. It's that or nothing. Their ED should support that.

[danlan]

No no no... You see there's this crowd that thinks because they do this or that or have done those things that the mobs should just fall over as they walk by in the highest level EE content... Because the DDO Devs are reallt bad at balancing different abilities etc, they leave some that are WAY too over powered in the game for too long, and the same goes for the under powered... People get spoiled or blurry eyed... So the things that are under powered are ignored, and when they do get around to adjusting the thigns that are over pwoered.. The tears fly in all directions.

There certainly seems to be some balance issues in the ED system... But mob save Dc's isn't a problem... IMO.... But I'm just one person...

If you think mobs saves are not a problem and you really would like to make EE very challanging, I would say double the cooldowns on sorc's and evocation AM's SLA.

[danlan]

Except it totally neglects divine, and locks DC arcanes into one ED.

On a second thought, I think reducing EE mobs' all saves by 4-5 points will be the best and easiest solution.

[Ape_Man]

Make each level of Magister count as +1 DC as well as +1 spell pen.

No, please no.

[Thrudh]

You must be bored an awful lot to have maxed out your destiny XP... Sad that you spend so much time bored playing a game you hate.

This... Anyone who plays this game that much is stating (in actions, which speak louder and truer than words) that there is nothing better out there to play.

Because if there was something more fun, they would be playing it, and not DDO.

Ergo... DDO is the best MMO out there for that person, regardless of what they post on these boards. Since actual reality does not match their statements on these boards, that should tell you how much credence to place in any of their other posts.

[Thrudh]

On a second thought, I think reducing EE mobs' all saves by 4-5 points will be the best and easiest solution.

Do you use debuff spells? Because you can lower EE mobs saves by a few points right now on your own instead of waiting for the devs to make the game easier for you.

[danlan]

Do you use debuff spells? Because you can lower EE mobs saves by a few points right now on your own instead of waiting for the devs to make the game easier for you.

Did you play at EE or at lease read the posts above? If not, please play EE and understand the points made in the posts above before making clueless comments.

[Lord_Thanatos]

Do you use debuff spells? Because you can lower EE mobs saves by a few points right now on your own instead of waiting for the devs to make the game easier for you.

What part of maxed out wizards requiring double Energy Drains to land any form of DC-based spell reliably, do you not understand?

[patang01]

Do you use debuff spells? Because you can lower EE mobs saves by a few points right now on your own instead of waiting for the devs to make the game easier for you.

It's not about making the game easier. It's about making sure that people who invest is a niche also performs okay in it. Right now I won't even bother with basic CC, it's a waste of time no matter how much I put in it. It's all DPS now which makes the game strongly tilted into one viable flavor only. And one of the reasons why I didn't like playing my CC wiz.

[fork_aka_spoon]

What part of maxed out wizards requiring double Energy Drains to land any form of DC-based spell reliably, do you not understand?

because its not true and people who are having trouble with it need to reroll. I've seen 59 web take care of everything in eecitw and ee high road, and a 51 enchant land on everything in ee high road.

[danlan]

because its not true and people who are having trouble with it need to reroll. I've seen 59 web take care of everything in eecitw and ee high road, and a 51 enchant land on everything in ee high road.

No you can not have 59 dc web sustainable by any means, unless you drink store & house d pot & abishai cookies and pretend it is sustainable.

There is a definitive difference between "landing" and "viable", especially so when soloing.

[fork_aka_spoon]

No you can not have 59 dc web sustainable by any means, unless you drink store & house d pot & abishai cookies and pretend it is sustainable.

There is a definitive difference between "landing" and "effective", especially so when soloing.

what are your dcs that you're saying aren't landing? either way i know im not wrong on what im saying since i run ee quests and raids daily including high road where you say max dc is failing and yet my guildy does it with dcs no where near max. and 59 can be sustainable, I can do the math if you want. with +5 tome and completionist you can have 61 sustainable. actually if you're going for web focus you can have 60 with just 3xcleric and a wiz pl

[Vordax]

what are your dcs that you're saying aren't landing? either way i know im not wrong on what im saying since i run ee quests and raids daily including high road where you say max dc is failing and yet my guildy does it with dcs no where near max. and 59 can be sustainable, I can do the math if you want. with +5 tome and completionist you can have 61 sustainable. actually if you're going for web focus you can have 60 with just 3xcleric and a wiz pl

Your guildy is probably not telling the complete truth, probably had used a shears of fate recently.

[fork_aka_spoon]

Your guildy is probably not telling the complete truth, probably had used a shears of fate recently.

*sigh. lets say WF wiz AM conjuration focus, and in my opinion a wizard should be nothing other than cc, and PMs just don't cut it anymore, not enough self healing.

10
23 modifier (can be higher)
9 (heighten)
+7 feat (3xfocus, wiz pl, 3xclr)
+2 twist
+3 from magister tree (unless you can't, i never actually checked this, if you can't then i retract what i said)
+3 item
+2 enhancement

=59

and you don't even need reliable cc for ee high road, i've run the chain multiple times on my cleric and guildy using esos barb blitzing. we have 2 manned the chain 5 or 6 times with no deaths. so if cc lands on half the mobs the healer better be able to keep the melee up.

I'm still very confused by this thread. CCing ee content (reliably) most likely will involve some PL grinding which I think is more than reasonable. If you want to run the most difficult content take the time to make yourself capable for it.

[Vordax]

*sigh

10
23 modifier (can be higher)
9 (heighten)
+7 feat (3xfocus, wiz pl, 3xclr)
+2 twist
+3 from magister tree (unless you can't, i never actually checked this, if you can't then i retract what i said)
+3 item
+2 enhancement

=59

and you don't even need reliable cc for ee high road, i've run the chain multiple times on my cleric and guildy using esos barb blitzing. we have 2 manned the chain 5 or 6 times with no deaths. so if cc lands on half the mobs the healer better be able to keep the melee up.

I'm still very confused by this thread.

Theoretically yes, but what idiot is going to build for a web DC only like that? Woot!!! I can be a web-bot! Fun! Fun! Fun! I stopped running my casters when the old epics required enchantment bots. I am finding that a 56 necro and 50 in other DCs, even with debuffs to not be that effective in EE high road, and epic GH seems to have upped the DC again.

[fork_aka_spoon]

Theoretically yes, but what idiot is going to build for a web DC only like that? Woot!!! I can be a web-bot! Fun! Fun! Fun! I stopped running my casters when the old epics required enchantment bots. I am finding that a 56 necro and 50 in other DCs, even with debuffs to not be that effective in EE high road, and epic GH seems to have upped the DC again.

why not make a web bot? it works. if ur building for 56 necro dc then you obviously (or most likely) won't be able to cc well, its just not doable. is the dc in ee high road lower than other servers or something? ive run through the chain with so many people who cc it easily. obviously its not going to land every single time as its not easy mode setting, its epic elite.

making a 55/55 dc caster is pretty simple too if you put time into it.

[Zerkul]

I don't think there should be any buffing to players DCs and Spell Penetrations. Things are fine like they are now.

The only thing that could improved the actual situation is to lower just a little the weak-saves of the mobs (let's say will for melees for example) in order to encourage casters finding the best spell to deal with 'em.

Right now, especially in high road EE, all mobs seems to have a good score in every save.

[fork_aka_spoon]

I don't think there should be any buffing to players DCs and Spell Penetrations. Things are fine like they are now.

The only thing that could improved the actual situation is to lower just a little the weak-saves of the mobs (let's say will for melees for example) in order to encourage casters finding the best spell to deal with 'em.

Right now, especially in high road EE, all mobs seems to have a good score in every save.

Not a bad idea, but I personally think it's fine how it is. This game would be insanely boring if you could just cc every single mob. I find running ee content without cc is a blast and a good way to improve at the game, whether you're a dps or healer. Yes high road is challenging to cc, but the overall difficulty for it is not there. I'm still trying to figure out what people are wanting, do you want every mob to be completely helpless so you can beat it down in mere seconds?

Make things more difficult please, not easier. Would be nice if you could customize the difficulty of a dungeon like challenges. Max level 15 or something, 1-5 enorm, 6-10 ehard, 11-15 ee or something like this and different scaling on each level.

[slimkj]

This... Anyone who plays this game that much is stating (in actions, which speak louder and truer than words) that there is nothing better out there to play.

Because if there was something more fun, they would be playing it, and not DDO.

Ergo... DDO is the best MMO out there for that person, regardless of what they post on these boards. Since actual reality does not match their statements on these boards, that should tell you how much credence to place in any of their other posts.
I see what you're getting at, and in an isolated environment where play time = enjoyment and there were no possible other factors, you'd be right, but it's not that straightforward. Compulsion can make people do things they don't really enjoy any more but feel they "have to" do, for example.

Edit: Not that I'm suggesting the game cater to that or change for it, just that play time shouldn't be taken as a barometer of joy felt. I've met plenty of people joylessly going through the motions on here, heh.

[danlan]

Not a bad idea, but I personally think it's fine how it is. This game would be insanely boring if you could just cc every single mob. I find running ee content without cc is a blast and a good way to improve at the game, whether you're a dps or healer. Yes high road is challenging to cc, but the overall difficulty for it is not there. I'm still trying to figure out what people are wanting, do you want every mob to be completely helpless so you can beat it down in mere seconds?

Make things more difficult please, not easier. Would be nice if you could customize the difficulty of a dungeon like challenges. Max level 15 or something, 1-5 enorm, 6-10 ehard, 11-15 ee or something like this and different scaling on each level.

I would not mind if EE becomes harder for ALL CLASSES, but currently spell dps have an obvious and unjustified advantage to spell dc on EE settings. Sorc/Shiradi with little gear/past lives can kill EE mobs more easily and efficiently than a DC wiz with the most past lives and best gears.

If dev doesn's want to increase player dc or reduce EE mob's saves, I think it is necessary to nerf spell dps to make it fair and justified. If that is the case, I would say doubling the spell cooldown on AM's evocation sla and/or all missile spells or even make shiradi's procs not working at all on offensive spells.

[Zerkul]

I would not mind if EE becomes harder for ALL CLASSES, but currently spell dps have an obvious and unjustified advantage to spell dc on EE settings. Sorc/Shiradi with little gear/past lives can kill EE mobs more easily and efficiently than a DC wiz with the most past lives and best gears.

If dev doesn's want to increase player dc or reduce EE mob's saves, I think it is necessary to nerf spell dps to make it fair and justified. If that is the case, I would say doubling the spell cooldown on AM's evocation sla and/or all missile spells or even make shiradi's procs not working at all on offensive spells.
The problem here is not spell DPS in general but the Shiradi's Spell DPS which is extremely reliable because most of the time doesn't involve a save check.

A 'normal' sorcerer with a DC of 54+ on evocation school will still suffer the DC problem we're talking about here if he uses standard spells like Meteor Swarm, Otiluke's Sphere, Chain Lightning, Fireballs etc... . Furthermore there are a lot more mobs with evasion in the expansion pack than everywhere else: reliably landing reflex-save spells is just happening in wonderland if you don't use debuffs.

[danlan]

The problem here is not spell DPS in general but the Shiradi's Spell DPS which is extremely reliable because most of the time doesn't involve a save check.

A 'normal' sorcerer with a DC of 54+ on evocation school will still suffer the DC problem we're talking about here if he uses standard spells like Meteor Swarm, Otiluke's Sphere, Chain Lightning, Fireballs etc... . Furthermore there are a lot more mobs with evasion in the expansion pack than everywhere else: reliably landing reflex-save spells is just happening in wonderland if you don't use debuffs.

That's exactly why I came up with the following comments:

"If that is the case, I would say doubling the spell cooldown on AM's evocation sla and all missile spells or even make shiradi's procs not working at all on offensive spells."

[slimkj]

Yeah! Nerf everything so everyone's equally frustrated! That's the way to a fun game...!

[bigolbear]

I don't think there should be any buffing to players DCs and Spell Penetrations. Things are fine like they are now.

The only thing that could improved the actual situation is to lower just a little the weak-saves of the mobs (let's say will for melees for example) in order to encourage casters finding the best spell to deal with 'em.

Right now, especially in high road EE, all mobs seems to have a good score in every save.

This, very much.

The solution to this problem is to lower the enemies WEAK saves only. And in my opinion to do so significantly.

[Zerkul]

Yeah! Nerf everything so everyone's equally frustrated! That's the way to a fun game...!OFFTOPIC: Sorry for this slight offtopic, but i got a question for you, not aimed at anything or anyone in particular, that's just my line of tought.

Would you ever build a character on something which is not WAI?
This is my opinion: I wouldn't because something that is not WAI will one day be fixed by developers.

EDIT(sidenote): That's real life that can be frustrating, not a game.

[fork_aka_spoon]

This, very much.

The solution to this problem is to lower the enemies WEAK saves only. And in my opinion to do so significantly.

If they do this the game would simply become too easy, why does no one understand this? Making mobs more difficult to cc will require more party balance, teamwork, and smarts to take these mobs down. I don't think the idea for this game is to make every single mob helpless and let the players stand there beating on them and taking no damage in return. Our characters can be built to have insanely high saves versus everything, why can't mobs be the same? Should we all have a significant penalty to one of our saves based on our class?

[Vellrad]

Yeah sure, DPS and heal only will make game so interesting.

[fork_aka_spoon]

Yeah sure, DPS and heal only will make game so interesting.

Yes actually it does, go run ee quests and raids with no cc, it definitely makes things more interesting.

And is beating on helpless mobs all day supposed to be interesting...?

[Ellihor]

If they do this the game would simply become too easy, why does no one understand this?

We don't want the game to become too easy, we just want balance between DPS and DC casting. Currently its very hard to not run out of sp while soloing EE on a dc based caster, while its much easier in a first life shiradi dps. This is wrong. A multi TRed character focused in dc should be able to kill an enemy with less sp usage than 1st life nuker, that is not what is happening actually.

[fork_aka_spoon]

We don't want the game to become too easy, we just want balance between DPS and DC casting. Currently its very hard to not run out of sp while soloing EE on a dc based caster, while its much easier in a first life shiradi dps. This is wrong. A multi TRed character focused in dc should be able to kill an enemy with less sp usage than 1st life nuker, that is not what is happening actually.

How can there be balance there? It's called nuker for a reason. If a dc caster is able to cc the mobs it's most likely going to take quite a long time to kill the mobs. If a dc caster could solo as easily as a nuker there would be imbalance since the dc caster would be able to make the mobs helpless, and kill them quickly. I'm not sure how to explain exactly what I'm saying, but I feel like I may have made sense.

I do understand what is being said, but disagree highly with it. A pm for example can solo easily, but no I don't think it should be able to do it as quickly as a dps caster. That being said however I wouldn't mind dps casters being nerfed.

[count_spicoli]

EE is not for solo play. You have 3 easy button levels for soloing. Leave epic elite alone for those of us who actually like to group and have a challenge. And fo be honest most ee's in a good group are becoming snoozefests. I can assure you in some epic elites a shirardi with no cc is going to have big problems.

[pezuwarrior]

First off, it is most definitely possible to build a toon that can reliably cc high road. Although not every player will do this, I put a ton of time into my sorcerer. He is currently able to hit 62 web dc buffed up with cookies. The mobs make some of the saves, but it actually give me something to do. In other ee content I just throw one web and its all over for that fight. Not very fun.

Secondly, you can solo many ee's using a dc caster approach. It's the only way my human sorc can. It's just takes patience and skill. I was considering quitting the game before u14 due to the insane lack of challenge. I'm now happy to say that quests such as eecitw and high road keep me entertained.

I want everything in this game to be made harder, while still keeping lower difficulties for players who don't wish to put the work in.

[Zerkul]

First off, it is most definitely possible to build a toon that can reliably cc high road. Although not every player will do this, I put a ton of time into my sorcerer. He is currently able to hit 62 web dc buffed up with cookies. The mobs make some of the saves, but it actually give me something to do. In other ee content I just throw one web and its all over for that fight. Not very fun.

Secondly, you can solo many ee's using a dc caster approach. It's the only way my human sorc can. It's just takes patience and skill. I was considering quitting the game before u14 due to the insane lack of challenge. I'm now happy to say that quests such as eecitw and high road keep me entertained.

I want everything in this game to be made harder, while still keeping lower difficulties for players who don't wish to put the work in.
Could i have a breakdown of you web DC? And charisma if possible.

EDIT: You know 62 DC on web is quite high and i think people here might want an explanation since we're discussing about EE and DCs. If that's a stars aligned score i wouldn't even consider it.

[Thrudh]

if cc lands on half the mobs the healer better be able to keep the melee up.

This is the problem with this debate... If my CC catches half the mobs (plus you can run them through it multiple times to catch them again, and there's always irresistable dance), it's viable and makes a real difference in a quest..

But the people complaining here are not satisified if unless they can solo and insta-kill 95% of the time.

It's OKAY if there are some quests that are easier with a full party. Teamwork is not evil. When you're talking about end-of-game top notch elite content, I would expect it to be hard, and require multiple players to beat. Nothing wrong with having to use symbol of death or energy drain or mind-fog or crushing despair or hypnotism on epic elite. Nothing wrong with letting the melee kill a few things, because it's too SP-expensive to try to kill EVERYTHING with a caster.

You don't get to waltz through epic elite with zero tactics like you did epic hard.

[Thrudh]

Currently its very hard to not run out of sp while soloing EE on a dc based caster

Ding Ding Ding!

Bring some friends then. The game should NOT be made easier because people are having a hard time SOLOING EPIC ELITE.

[Zerkul]

Ding Ding Ding!

Bring some friends then. The game should NOT be made easier because people are having a hard time SOLOING EPIC ELITE.
Some build can SOLO EPIC ELITE content, some others cannot or have harder time doing it: soloing ability is one of the parameters one can take into account for classes balancing purpose.

[slimkj]

OFFTOPIC: Sorry for this slight offtopic, but i got a question for you, not aimed at anything or anyone in particular, that's just my line of tought.

Would you ever build a character on something which is not WAI?
This is my opinion: I wouldn't because something that is not WAI will one day be fixed by developers
If it was clearly not WAI, then no because a) it'd probably make things too easy and b) I know I'd be wasting effort as it'd be gone soon.

If it was a PrE or ED that was released, stable and the norm for some time, then yes. People should be able to rely on fairly static rulesets otherwise they will just feel they are peeing into the wind, wasting time investment just waiting for the rug to be pulled from under them.

[Ancient]

Ding Ding Ding!

Bring some friends then. The game should NOT be made easier because people are having a hard time SOLOING EPIC ELITE.

When I came up with my first toon that could solo Ee elite using my own build, it meant something because epic elite is difficult. I still cannot solo Ee devil assault. The mob dps is higher than what my toon can deal with. The answer is not to nerf the quest, but to group.. Or if I am focused on solo then either change my tactics or my build/equipment.

If a group can do it, the quest is fine. If a class can contribute (in a meaningful way) to a group completion then that is fine too.

The only tidbit I'd add is that the most quests should be non-soloable due to difficulty and not because of cheap mechanics like pull two levers at once.

[Karavek]

Frankly I unlike many seem to be, can look on this far more unbiased at least from the position of caster vs non caster. You see my casters eventually gave up gave in and TRed only to end up shelved because of a number of factors from missing the old character I had effectively thrown away for trivial power increase for an unacceptable amount of grind to being to OP compared to my my RL friends I managed to get to check out the game with the coming of FR while leveling ruining their own first time experience.

That for me seems the ultimate flaw with TRing in general. TRs dont really have any business running normal dif with new players. A gap between new and old virtually impossible to get past if they dont get over themselves and add past lives to the store one of these days soon.

Time as a barrier in MMO is not really acceptable. I know that sounds like the exact opposite compared to what alot say, but the fact is that an older MMO with the time factor as a barrier becomes insurmountable for new players. New players dont want to take time building up by playing through content that is really only fun the first time through. DDO did this to itself with overly static content. Same reason trap skills have become seen as something only used to get abit more XP.

You cant make an MMO to appeal to hard core players is just the way it is. Most hard core competitive natured people also want very smooth and stable play experiences. This is why so many gravitate towards heavily funded in development FPS games. Some are getting ever more effective at the solo role play immersion experience. MMO on the other hand are becoming an ever bigger joke even among their own player community.

Look at the way we describe them now days. Grinding,farming, virtual jobs, time sinks. We dont call them fun, entertainment, hobbies, or even see them as part of our R&R time anymore.

I think back to my fondest MMO experiences on the now lost to us game city of heroes I recall many enjoyable casual encounters. From being able to anytime I logged on find a random mission group and enjoy the actual playtime and banter with others rather then stress over a failed run. Failure wasnt an option there because quest completion gave trivial xp compared to killing mobs. This meant players in lvling mode rarely wanted to leave missions early, they hungered for the blood of their foes. If you had capped your character and where doing it for the reward merits, then you might go for speed, which didnt hurt lvlers it just meant they would end up with more merits then a typical lower lvl guy who usually didnt know yet about merits and their awesome use. Which was to let you buy anything from an in game vendor and save a ton of cash that could get soaked up fast if you tried buying them on the AH from the farmers.

You could just play whatever content at whatever lvl range you wanted once capped, still find challenge, earn viable rewards for your character, and thanks to side kicking and exemplaring never make the content feel to high or low a lvl for others. They even had amazing coding for giant monsters and holiday event spawns that rumor had was going to eventually become the way the game worked. This was to make each ragions mob have a hard set of stats, but with a sliding scale on dmg and dmg resistance that was based on their target. imagine mobs that a low lvl and a high lvl can fight at the same time, with the high lvl guy sometimes hitting softer then the low lvl because of the adaption to a high lvl dmg output. likewise a blow that might one shot a squishy high lvl guy might not do much to a low lvl tank in the same fight. If the game had lived and one day they had removed lvls from mobs it would of been a glorious day in MMO history that now likely will never come.

End game has nothing to do with teaming. trying to hide the best gear and xp behind a gateway meant for groups,is the same as trying to force grouping and doomed to failure. People dont play games to feel second best, and dont always have the time nor inclination to team with others. Countless single player games with great challenge exists, making content require teams is not real challenge, just inflated numbers that wont do other then punish the casual minded player.

The fact is in D&D after a certain lvl range, especially in 3E+ D20, power specifically magical power is the only thing that matters. No human barbarian will ever have a chance against an elven blade singer or battle dancer for example. Physical power has limits that magic cannot. Hell per an issue of dragon and a letter to skip or monte the frenzied berserker was never made with the idea any player would take it. It was meant and made entirely as a tool for DMs to create highly dangerous if short lived foes for the players.

What alot of players want when they make one is to really be a dwarven battle rager. A racial PRC that in 3E+ got watered down, but in 2nd Ed was a glorious raging weapon of destruction who rarely made it past lvl 6 at least in my groups.

the fact is DDO has gone to far down the hole, and I wont be at all surprised if WOTC picks up its ball and takes it away from turbine completely once NWO launches.

These days I myself am preaching screw MMO, invest in hard games you OWN once you purchase and can play whenever you want for the rest of your life.

[Ape_Man]

But the people complaining here are not satisified if unless they can solo and insta-kill 95% of the time.
.

Nobody is saying that. Take you weak strawman arguments somewhere else and go troll a different thread.

[WruntJunior]

This is the problem with this debate... If my CC catches half the mobs (plus you can run them through it multiple times to catch them again, and there's always irresistable dance), it's viable and makes a real difference in a quest..

But the people complaining here are not satisified if unless they can solo and insta-kill 95% of the time.

It's OKAY if there are some quests that are easier with a full party. Teamwork is not evil. When you're talking about end-of-game top notch elite content, I would expect it to be hard, and require multiple players to beat. Nothing wrong with having to use symbol of death or energy drain or mind-fog or crushing despair or hypnotism on epic elite. Nothing wrong with letting the melee kill a few things, because it's too SP-expensive to try to kill EVERYTHING with a caster.

You don't get to waltz through epic elite with zero tactics like you did epic hard.


And a first-life wizard can go another DC down to get the spell pen to use against most drow (I believe a first-life elf could hit 54, as my drow wizard was at 53 with 1x FvS and 1x Wizard past life).

A fully maxed-out caster should be working at least 85-90% of the time as a DC caster without having to do significant debuffing or use many short-term items...it makes no sense that people with COMPLETIONIST palemasters (in other words, the highest necro DCs sustainably obtainable) are not hitting those levels of success. DC casting should be a comparable option to DPS casting, and I'm not saying DPS casting needs a nerf - instead, DC casting needs some sort of bump. I personally see no problem with dropping saves by 5 on all enemies, and keeping saves at sane levels like this fixes most of the issues.

Note that this wouldn't even be much of an issue if enemies actually had a weak save.

The sentiment I posted here is the one that most of us share - that those with the maxed out sustainable DCs can't even hit a majority-of-the-time success without debuffing, so those of us who are missing things will spend a significant chunk of our SP debuffing.

Standard debuffing (like throwing a mindfog on a disco ball) is no problem to me - I got used to doing this when I was CCing with a 39 enchantment DC around u8 on my first wizard, and have done it since. Having to neg level, hypno, curse, and crushing despair an enemy just to get a hold to stick, though, is ridiculous...much better to just use DPS. Realizing that the majority of my time as a wizard would be spent laying debuffs thick to get things to work in EE made me TR - and as we saw with pre-u9 Epics, requiring arcanes to be one-trick-ponies to succeed in content is bad, which is the type of state DC casters are in right now. This is why many of us with casters near the top (or at the top...I could get my sustainable necro DC 2 points higher with the palemaster I just TRed out of, and that requires a +5 int tome and completionist) of DCs in our chosen area (necro was obviously my chosen as a palemaster, with enchantment as a secondary) are realizing how bogus it is and TRing into builds where we can really have fun as an arcane again.

Trying to solo EEs on a DC caster will show you just how weak they are - each of the three builds in my bio can solo EEs, though my sorc hasn't been tested by me yet - as a DC caster, I was barely helpful to a group in EE (as soon as pretty much any debuffs wore off, any enemies I had CCed that were still alive suddenly weren't...and my insta-kills never performed to my expectations as reliable abilities), much less able to either effectively or efficiently get things killed solo without swapping to a DPS destiny and changing parts of my character over from debuffs.

[Nitesco]

why not make a web bot? it works. if ur building for 56 necro dc then you obviously (or most likely) won't be able to cc well, its just not doable. is the dc in ee high road lower than other servers or something? ive run through the chain with so many people who cc it easily. obviously its not going to land every single time as its not easy mode setting, its epic elite.

making a 55/55 dc caster is pretty simple too if you put time into it.

I love these posts, they bring me right back to the 2010 mentality where players talk about grind as if it's an achievement they enjoyed labouring at. Some players ground insanely to be able to pull off a 'cool' spectacle that most players with average time or mental health constraints couldn't. They want to stay ahead of everyone else, heaven forbid that they should be effective without 'paying their grinding dues'.

So what you're essentially saying is that with multiple past lives, every feat and enhancement, every ED and twist, every best-in-slot item and every tome and power bump you can buy from the store, you can achieve an EE viable DC for 1 spell? That sounds like a whole lot of work and not a whole lot of fun to me, especially considering the alternatives.

[Ape_Man]

I love these posts, they bring me right back to the 2010 mentality where players talk about grind as if it's an achievement they enjoyed labouring at. Some lot of players ground insanely to be able to pull off a 'cool' spectacle that most players with average time or mental health constraints couldn't. They want to stay ahead of everyone else, heaven forbid that they should be effective without 'paying their grinding dues'.

So what you're essentially saying is that with multiple past lives, every feat and enhancement, every ED and twist, every best-in-slot item and every tome and power bump you can buy from the store, you can achieve an EE viable DC for 1 spell? That sounds like a whole lot of work on not a whole lot of fun to me, especially considering the alternatives. This thread isn't just about how easy the game should or shouldn't be, it's about

Or you can dump DCs all together and don't bother because it's been priced out of reach.

[Daemoneyes]

Ding Ding Ding!

Bring some friends then. The game should NOT be made easier because people are having a hard time SOLOING EPIC ELITE.

Failed your read check or the following logic check?
EE should either be soloable for all classes or none.
It should not be that some builds can solo it easy and other require multiple PL and hardcore equip to be at best meh in EE.
And no i dont talk about gimp builds, i mean perfectly build chars that should be able to run it but are not because balance is wrong.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Balancing insta-kill has always been a problem in this game unfortunately .. in retrospect adding AOE insta-kill may have been a design mistake.

[Ape_Man]

Balancing insta-kill has always been a problem in this game unfortunately .. in retrospect adding AOE insta-kill may have been a design mistake.

Pre-U16 EEs were about right though.

[Thrudh]

When I came up with my first toon that could solo Ee elite using my own build, it meant something because epic elite is difficult. I still cannot solo Ee devil assault. The mob dps is higher than what my toon can deal with. The answer is not to nerf the quest, but to group.. Or if I am focused on solo then either change my tactics or my build/equipment.

If a group can do it, the quest is fine. If a class can contribute (in a meaningful way) to a group completion then that is fine too.

Exactly... excellent post... Some quests are harder than others. Not being able to solo epic elite is not a reason to change the quest.

[Thrudh]

EE should either be soloable for all classes or none.

Really? That's how you want to balance the game?

All EE quests should be soloable for all classes or all EE quests should be soloable by none...

We can't have some EE quests that are easier for archers or some that are easier for casters or some that are easier for evasion characters? Everyone should be able to solo all EE quests or none?

I vote for none then... Run hard or normal if you want to solo, bring a group for the hardest content in the game.

[mystafyi]

Run hard or normal if you want to solo, bring a group for the hardest content in the game.

I agree. sadly, turbine instituted dungeon scaling to penalize grouping. Then we have bravery bonus and 6 different versions of item drops depending upon difficulty that has made elites the defacto normal.

3 mechanics that I feel have hurt the game.

[WruntJunior]

Really? That's how you want to balance the game?

All EE quests should be soloable for all classes or all EE quests should be soloable by none...

We can't have some EE quests that are easier for archers or some that are easier for casters or some that are easier for evasion characters? Everyone should be able to solo all EE quests or none?

I vote for none then... Run hard or normal if you want to solo, bring a group for the hardest content in the game.

Except you can never make it impossible to solo without making it extremely difficult to nigh impossible (as in, you need a PERFECT group) in a group, as there will always be someone able to solo it. As is, most EEs can only be soloed by people who know what they're doing, have well-geared characters with whom they're very familiar, and use careful tactics and planning - that is a really good point for difficult content, as most people won't be able to solo it and many groups will have some trouble, but you're not locking 99.99% of the game's population out of being able to do the content.

A VERY simple change would make DC casters more valid in general - lower all saves by ~5 across the board, and lower weak saves for characters (reflex + fort for casters, for example) by at least 5 more so that weak saves can be targeted on tough enemies.

To everyone in the thread in general, though...if you have not played a high-DC caster in EEs, your opinion is mostly irrelevant no matter which side you're on - you have no experience in the matter first-hand, and second-hand experience won't teach you much of what this topic is about. Saying things like "my guildie does it fine" does nothing to help your case - you don't know how much debuffing or the like he has to do to get his spells. Basically, if you don't really know what you're talking about, don't talk about it.

[Inouk]

My wiz is 2nd life (1st wiz life, past life is sorc), so I can't speak to how difficult EE is for a L33T toon, but I do have some opinions on this matter none the less.

First off, the EDs need better balance. A wizard IMO should never be noticeably more powerful in a ranger ED than in the arcane EDs. I'm happy that they made the EDs versatile enough to be viable cross-class, but the balance is WRONG if wizards and sorcs are more powerful in Shiradi than in Magister or Draconic. I think there are only maybe 6 EDs that get significant play (Magister, Draconic, Shiradi, FotW, LD, GMoF) and when we can't even get balance out of those, much less the other 5 that get very limited use, there is a problem.

Second, while I appreciate the need to maintain the interest of the elite gamers, I do not think you should need completionist and 10 extra past lives, +5 tomes, completely maxed EDs, and all of the most elite gear to be viable in EE. A 2nd lifer in a maxed primary ED with almost (but not fully) maxed equipment, 1-2 good twists, +3 or +4 tome should at least be capable of contributing meaningfully to EE. People with 6 past lives should expect to run EE as the standard, their characters ARE elite by definition. Someone who has fully maxed everything with completionist should frankly find even EE to be somewhat easy.... they aren't just a maxed out character, they are a maxed out character x18.... If you have ground out 18 past lives and farmed endlessly for all the best equipment and tomes STOP BIT**ING that things are too easy. Start a new character if you really want challenge, otherwise have fun steam-rolling EE on your completionist, you earned it.

Third, I really think another difficulty level is warranted. I know some people will jump up and down that there are already 4 and another is not needed, but the gap between EH and EE is soooo extreme that there really should be one in between for those people that are ready to move up from EH, but can't handle the insanity of EE. If this were the case I'd give a lot more credence to the argument that EE is just for 6xTR toons with maxed gear.

Fourth, I hate to say it but the wiz PL is broken. Because it exists casters are expected to grind out 6 PL's to be viable in end game, where a DPS toon (spell or melee) or healer does not. The existence of the wiz PL has changed the cap so dramatically that difficulty had to be adjusted to make first lifers practically incapable of breaking SR. The PL needs to be nerfed and another minor perk be added so as to correct this situation. I'd much rather them give a -1 adjustment to metamagics (like capstone) that stacks, or maybe the ability to pick 1 spell to use as an SLA (level of spell = # of PL stacks, max of 3), or something else like that... nice but not required.

Sorry for the wall of text :)

[Aashrym]

Theoretically yes, but what idiot is going to build for a web DC only like that?

The players who want their web DC's to land reliably instead of complain about them? ;)

[WruntJunior]

The players who want their web DC's to land reliably instead of complain about them? ;)

To the exclusion of most any other ability, though, and essentially only one spell...that's kinda the main issue.

[fork_aka_spoon]

I love these posts, they bring me right back to the 2010 mentality where players talk about grind as if it's an achievement they enjoyed labouring at. Some players ground insanely to be able to pull off a 'cool' spectacle that most players with average time or mental health constraints couldn't. They want to stay ahead of everyone else, heaven forbid that they should be effective without 'paying their grinding dues'.

So what you're essentially saying is that with multiple past lives, every feat and enhancement, every ED and twist, every best-in-slot item and every tome and power bump you can buy from the store, you can achieve an EE viable DC for 1 spell? That sounds like a whole lot of work and not a whole lot of fun to me, especially considering the alternatives.

Oh wow, wasn't expecting such an idiotic reply. This isn't an insane amount of grinding and hardly involves best in slot. The stats I listed were with 4 past lives (hardly a lot) a +3 tome, epic diabolists docent, and somehow +11 int from gear which is not the least bit difficult. And yes, if people aren't willing to put time and effort to better their toons then they shouldn't be able to have a easy time running what's supposed to be the most difficult ee content as far as quests go. With what I listed you can have 1 of 2 things, 55 enchant and 55 web dc, or a 59 web dc. Take time to do the simple math before trying to call me out on it.

If they made all content possible for an ungeared first lifer to crowd control then the game would become a complete and utter joke for those who strive to be the best. There's nothing wrong with how things are.

I saw someone say something about first life healers and dps toons be able to contribute more in EE content than a first lifer dc caster. How is that a surprise at all? Healers and dps toons can't cast a spell to make the mobs helpless for everyone. If you want to contribute to this content without grinding make a dps/healer.


Ding Ding Ding!

Bring some friends then. The game should NOT be made easier because people are having a hard time SOLOING EPIC ELITE.


This is the problem with this debate... If my CC catches half the mobs (plus you can run them through it multiple times to catch them again, and there's always irresistable dance), it's viable and makes a real difference in a quest..

But the people complaining here are not satisified if unless they can solo and insta-kill 95% of the time.

It's OKAY if there are some quests that are easier with a full party. Teamwork is not evil. When you're talking about end-of-game top notch elite content, I would expect it to be hard, and require multiple players to beat. Nothing wrong with having to use symbol of death or energy drain or mind-fog or crushing despair or hypnotism on epic elite. Nothing wrong with letting the melee kill a few things, because it's too SP-expensive to try to kill EVERYTHING with a caster.

You don't get to waltz through epic elite with zero tactics like you did epic hard.

Amen to you.

[taurean430]

*sigh. lets say WF wiz AM conjuration focus, and in my opinion a wizard should be nothing other than cc, and PMs just don't cut it anymore, not enough self healing.

10
23 modifier (can be higher)
9 (heighten)
+7 feat (3xfocus, wiz pl, 3xclr)
+2 twist
+3 from magister tree (unless you can't, i never actually checked this, if you can't then i retract what i said)
+3 item
+2 enhancement

=59

and you don't even need reliable cc for ee high road, i've run the chain multiple times on my cleric and guildy using esos barb blitzing. we have 2 manned the chain 5 or 6 times with no deaths. so if cc lands on half the mobs the healer better be able to keep the melee up.

I'm still very confused by this thread. CCing ee content (reliably) most likely will involve some PL grinding which I think is more than reasonable. If you want to run the most difficult content take the time to make yourself capable for it.

So, one is to gather your opinion is that every Wizard should be a 4th life WF Archmage trapped in Magister? That's the pinnacle of silly. You are saying that because it's possible to throw everything into web that this is somehow okay. Seriously?

[fork_aka_spoon]

So, one is to gather your opinion is that every Wizard should be a 4th life WF Archmage trapped in Magister? That's the pinnacle of silly. You are saying that because it's possible to throw everything into web that this is somehow okay. Seriously?

Didn't imply it at all actually, was just doing the math for those who said a 59 sustainable web is impossible. What I was implying however is that these people are most likely rolling pms with low 50s for enchant/web and can't figure out why it's not landing. If it did, this would again be an imbalance since the pm would be able to slap an energy drain+fod to take out mobs and have an easy time keeping everything helpless.

What I'm seeing in this thread is people wanting a dc caster to be able to do it all with minimal grinding. Able to kill mobs easily, and make them helpless easily, is this really how you want the game to be? Now someone will quote me saying a dps caster can solo easily with minimal grinding and it will be the same argument all over again. Honestly if you want easy epic elite content where a dc caster can easily burn through everything then stick to eberron.

[danlan]

Didn't imply it at all actually, was just doing the math for those who said a 59 sustainable web is impossible. What I was implying however is that these people are most likely rolling pms with low 50s for enchant/web and can't figure out why it's not landing. If it did, this would again be an imbalance since the pm would be able to slap an energy drain+fod to take out mobs and have an easy time keeping everything helpless.

What I'm seeing in this thread is people wanting a dc caster to be able to do it all with minimal grinding. Able to kill mobs easily, and make them helpless easily, is this really how you want the game to be? Now someone will quote me saying a dps caster can solo easily with minimal grinding and it will be the same argument all over again. Honestly if you want easy epic elite content where a dc caster can easily burn through everything then stick to eberron.

I am gonna repeat my self again.

If we all want EE to be challenging, that's perfectly fine for me. My wizard will adjust and try to be a good one trick pony then.

But in NO WAY I can accept a first life AM/sorc shiraidi with no gears to be able to solo many EEs more easily and efficiently than my 3wiz/3clr/3fvs wizard with best gears. It is simply insulting and disheartening.

I can only see that all missles spellss, including AM evocation SLA's cooldown being doubled or shiradi's procs not working on all offensive spells being the real solution to balance spell DPS vs DC currently.

[smatt]

I am gonna repeat my self again.

If we all want EE to be challenging, that's perfectly fine for me. My wizard will adjust and try to be a good one trick pony then.

But in NO WAY I can accept a first life AM/sorc shiraidi with no gears to be able to solo many EEs more easily and efficiently than my 3wiz/3clr/3fvs wizard with best gears. It is simply insulting and disheartening.

I can only see that all missles spellss, including AM evocation SLA's cooldown being doubled or shiradi's procs not working on all offensive spells being the real solution to balance spell DPS vs DC currently.

The problem is clear... Shiradi = Overpowered

[fork_aka_spoon]

One huge thing I'd like to point out is this, more and more people are soloing EE content as monks more easily than other melee classes. So should monk also be nerfed? Or should mobs hit damage be lowered so that a barbarian can also solo the content as easily as monk?

If there is going to be "balance" for dps caster versus dc caster, then I want my barb so solo EE content as easily as a monk.

[taurean430]

Didn't imply it at all actually, was just doing the math for those who said a 59 sustainable web is impossible. What I was implying however is that these people are most likely rolling pms with low 50s for enchant/web and can't figure out why it's not landing. If it did, this would again be an imbalance since the pm would be able to slap an energy drain+fod to take out mobs and have an easy time keeping everything helpless.

What I'm seeing in this thread is people wanting a dc caster to be able to do it all with minimal grinding. Able to kill mobs easily, and make them helpless easily, is this really how you want the game to be? Now someone will quote me saying a dps caster can solo easily with minimal grinding and it will be the same argument all over again. Honestly if you want easy epic elite content where a dc caster can easily burn through everything then stick to eberron.

I can't say that I see the same thing as you do. Granted, this thread has taken a trip to the gutter in terms of petty skirmishes of no consequence. However, there are some rather pointed and detailed examples of what the issue is. What a multi-tr or completionist with 3 past lives in every casting class is finding frustrating is that the adjustments *appear* at this time to require heavy investment into 1-2 spells and their schools, to the exception of everything else.

Now, if what we see come EGianthold is in line with these appearances, it negates much of the advantage rendered by grinding out heavy amounts of past lives. In effect, a completionist with 3 past lives in every casting class should in fact have competitive dc's without being limited to one ED and a small selection of viable gear off of a shortlist. The intended purpose of grinding out those lives was to gain that option.

Without considering temporary buffs such as store pots/cookies/etc the dc's should be within reach. If they are not, this should rightly be adjusted. It's definitely problematic that one can build a 1st life arcane with Shiradi Destiny that outperforms a completionist. But make no mistake here; if the issue is valid as the OP suggests any player interested in making an effective caster is going to go Shiradi and call it a day until that gets nerfed. By then there will be something else everyone will migrate to from there. This is not balancing, this is Wheel of Migration DDO style imo...


The sentiment I posted here is the one that most of us share - that those with the maxed out sustainable DCs can't even hit a majority-of-the-time success without debuffing, so those of us who are missing things will spend a significant chunk of our SP debuffing.

Standard debuffing (like throwing a mindfog on a disco ball) is no problem to me - I got used to doing this when I was CCing with a 39 enchantment DC around u8 on my first wizard, and have done it since. Having to neg level, hypno, curse, and crushing despair an enemy just to get a hold to stick, though, is ridiculous...much better to just use DPS. Realizing that the majority of my time as a wizard would be spent laying debuffs thick to get things to work in EE made me TR - and as we saw with pre-u9 Epics, requiring arcanes to be one-trick-ponies to succeed in content is bad, which is the type of state DC casters are in right now. This is why many of us with casters near the top (or at the top...I could get my sustainable necro DC 2 points higher with the palemaster I just TRed out of, and that requires a +5 int tome and completionist) of DCs in our chosen area (necro was obviously my chosen as a palemaster, with enchantment as a secondary) are realizing how bogus it is and TRing into builds where we can really have fun as an arcane again.

Trying to solo EEs on a DC caster will show you just how weak they are - each of the three builds in my bio can solo EEs, though my sorc hasn't been tested by me yet - as a DC caster, I was barely helpful to a group in EE (as soon as pretty much any debuffs wore off, any enemies I had CCed that were still alive suddenly weren't...and my insta-kills never performed to my expectations as reliable abilities), much less able to either effectively or efficiently get things killed solo without swapping to a DPS destiny and changing parts of my character over from debuffs.

I believe he has some nice points to bring to the discussion here. With my own primary caster, I've made similar observations while recapping. Personally, I'm waiting to see just what we are getting with Epic Gianthold before drawing any conclusions. But again, if what is being speculated is true we are staring right in the face of the demise of the dc caster.

[danlan]

One huge thing I'd like to point out is this, more and more people are soloing EE content as monks more easily than other melee classes. So should monk also be nerfed? Or should mobs hit damage be lowered so that a barbarian can also solo the content as easily as monk?

If there is going to be "balance" for dps caster versus dc caster, then I want my barb so solo EE content as easily as a monk.

Even monks will need to do some significant grinding in gears and past lives before they can solo EE, and it is significantly harder and different to a shiradi who just hit and run with literally no sp cost. And from what I have heard, everything is nothing is already being nerf in update 17.

[fork_aka_spoon]

Even monks will need to do some significant grinding in gears and past lives before they can solo EE, and it is significantly harder and different to a shiradi who just hit and run with literally no sp cost. And from what I have heard, everything is nothing is already being nerf in update 17.

A well geared first life monk (gmof not required) can solo a lot of ee content where I can almost guarantee a completionist barb with max pls will fail. There should NOT be equal balance for every single class.

[TheFantasticBard]

Just gonna throw my 2 cents in here. I play exclusively bards, (other than teh TR lifes to make them better bards). Ive gotten my enchantment DC to a 55 standing, of which i find that it is in fact ADIQUATE in getting the mobs, roughly 60% of the time. Now I combinde that with Hypno/Crusshing Dispare and tada. Its great. I dont understand why wizzys are complaining about "Oh, my DC isnt good enough at XXX. Nerf the saves please." EE isnt ment for one class to rompstomp thru it. (there is even a dev post about that, to lazy to look tho). If MY bard can and does constently do EE's without issue, i see NO reason why wizzys cannot as well, I mean they should from my calcs have higher DC's and SP than my bard. So I do ask, stop being butt-hurt, and adapt. May the ragers now rage at my comment!

[danlan]

Just gonna throw my 2 cents in here. I play exclusively bards, (other than teh TR lifes to make them better bards). Ive gotten my enchantment DC to a 55 standing, of which i find that it is in fact ADIQUATE in getting the mobs, roughly 60% of the time. Now I combinde that with Hypno/Crusshing Dispare and tada. Its great. I dont understand why wizzys are complaining about "Oh, my DC isnt good enough at XXX. Nerf the saves please." EE isnt ment for one class to rompstomp thru it. (there is even a dev post about that, to lazy to look tho). If MY bard can and does constently do EE's without issue, i see NO reason why wizzys cannot as well, I mean they should from my calcs have higher DC's and SP than my bard. So I do ask, stop being butt-hurt, and adapt. May the ragers now rage at my comment!

Your observation is in fact in line with mine. A 54-55 enchantment DC with debuff will be able to cc EE Update 16 quests reasonably well. But that kind of mandating all wizards to become a one trick pony once again. And from what I have heard, EE GH's saves will be even higher and more pushing to DC.

Sorc's dps is fine as they are also subject to limitation just like wizard. On the other hand, shiraidi's spell dps is unaffected by saves at all therefore gaining an unjustified advantage on the hardest difficulty setting.

[WruntJunior]

Your observation is in fact in line with mine. A 54-55 enchantment DC with debuff will be able to cc EE Update 16 quests reasonably well. But that kind of mandating all wizards to become a one trick pony once again. And from what I have heard, EE GH's saves will be even higher and more pushing to DC.

Sorc's dps is fine as they are also subject to limitation just like wizard. On the other hand, shiraidi's spell dps is unaffected by saves at all therefore gaining an unjustified advantage on the hardest difficulty setting.

Danlan seems to get it (except for shiradi needing to be nerfed - I don't think there's anything wrong with epic characters being rather powerful, just with them being rather weak, especially if they're built and geared to perfection). We're approaching the territory of DC-specced casters essentially becoming hold-bots again - this is an area that causes most people to not want to play a DC-specced caster at all (same reason people don't make healbots after a bit of playing a divine), and was seen quite clearly pre-u9 in Epics. It really just seems like a wheel for turbine, and right now DPS arcanes are on top of the wheel and DC arcanes aren't.

On a side-note, it's insane that a level 25 wizard in full gear with 20-something past-lives can't no fail finger something like a spider or a rat...these are not epic enemies, and they shouldn't be that difficult to kill. Really, dretches SHOULDN'T be either, but that's not as bad as a rat having a ~40-45 fort save and doing 150 damage a hit.

[LOOON375]

On a side-note, it's insane that a level 25 wizard in full gear with 20-something past-lives can't no fail finger something like a spider or a rat...these are not epic enemies, and they shouldn't be that difficult to kill. Really, dretches SHOULDN'T be either, but that's not as bad as a rat having a ~40-45 fort save and doing 150 damage a hit.Then you in turn, would have that same exact group coming back here complaining that game is too easy. This is a "no win" situation for Turbine when it comes to pleasing the people on this forum.

EE is fine just the way it is. And this is coming from a player that has an enchant specced, 2nd life, CC wizzard that is having difficulty in the newer EE content. I just need to "re learn" how to best CC the new content. For me, it keeps stuff fresh having to adjust to new stuff.

This game would absoutely suck arse if I could go in on the hardest difficulty and be able to lock everything down without fail, or instakill everything in sight.

[Viconiax]

In my experience, a first life wf sorc with shiradi is not more powerful than a TR wizzy with a decent dc/spell pen, take ee chronoscope for example, try to do ee chrono with a 1st life wf sorc with shiradi vs a good TR wizzy with decent dc/spell pen, the wizzy probably last longer. Shiradi is not too op to a well played ccer/instant death arcane or a well-played sorc with draconis incarnation (and this coming from my experience with both shiradi with full force spec and a ccer/instant death arcane and a sorc), well played melee can also out-perform a 1st life wf sorc with shiradi (I did it before and also saw other people did it)...so shiradi is fine as it is now and doesn't need to be nerfed. Remember when people complaining about how op wail of banshee is? Look at how bad it got nerfed.

Back to the main point of the post, I do agree that the saves of ee mobs in ee gh need to be lowered by a few points (but not much). Ee saves of the live content is as fine as it is now so I don't suggest that the dev should nerf it.

[AtomicMew]

Then you in turn, would have that same exact group coming back here complaining that game is too easy. This is a "no win" situation for Turbine when it comes to pleasing the people on this forum.

EE is fine just the way it is. And this is coming from a player that has an enchant specced, 2nd life, CC wizzard that is having difficulty in the newer EE content. I just need to "re learn" how to best CC the new content. For me, it keeps stuff fresh having to adjust to new stuff.

This game would absoutely suck arse if I could go in on the hardest difficulty and be able to lock everything down without fail, or instakill everything in sight.

No one is complaining that he game is too hard. The game is extremely easy to the point that every single EE can be soloed, most of them easily.

The problem is that necro DC casting is extremely underpowered compared to other options.

[FranOhmsford]

It's definitely problematic that one can build a 1st life arcane with Shiradi Destiny that outperforms a completionist. But make no mistake here; if the issue is valid as the OP suggests any player interested in making an effective caster is going to go Shiradi and call it a day until that gets nerfed.


Hang on a cotton pickin' minute....

Isn't Shiradi Destiny for Rangers and Barbs mainly?

How many other Destinys do you have to go through to get Shiradi on an Arcane Caster?

1st Life Casters in Shiradi Destiny are all gonna be Lvl 25 right?
And there aren't gonna be all that many who don't TR that character at that point right?

[WruntJunior]

Hang on a cotton pickin' minute....

Isn't Shiradi Destiny for Rangers and Barbs mainly?

How many other Destinys do you have to go through to get Shiradi on an Arcane Caster?

1st Life Casters in Shiradi Destiny are all gonna be Lvl 25 right?
And there aren't gonna be all that many who don't TR that character at that point right?

There's no TRs needed for that character, though.

[danlan]

There's no TRs needed for that character, though.

No gears either.

[Matuse]

Isn't Shiradi Destiny for Rangers and Barbs mainly?

No, it's the highest damage and best crowd control destiny for anyone who primarily uses ranged weapons or is able to generate continual quantities of multi-hit magical attacks....the more of those attacks that are SLAs the better. Sorcerers, Evocation Archmages, Favored Soul shoulder cannons, and even Pale Masters running double aura.


How many other Destinys do you have to go through to get Shiradi on an Arcane Caster?

If your plan was to be Shiradi from the start, then you would do 4 levels of Fatesinger, 3 levels of Shadow Dancer, 4 levels of Legendary Dreadnaught, and then Shiradi.


1st Life Casters in Shiradi Destiny are all gonna be Lvl 25 right?

You hit level 25 at about the same time as you get a second destiny to level 5, so you'd be hitting 25 at about the same time as you got level 1 in Shiradi. Assuming you swapped over to a new destiny right as you leveled sufficiently in the old one.


And there aren't gonna be all that many who don't TR that character at that point right?

I prefer not to ascribe TR motivations to random people. If nothing else, unless you buy a true heart in the store, you're highly unlikely to have the 20 epic tokens needed to do the TR at this point. It takes some farming, and none of that farming could take place in Faerun....which isn't really the common route.

[Aashrym]

To the exclusion of most any other ability, though, and essentially only one spell...that's kinda the main issue.

It's also epic elite and conjuration is not just web. It's also glitter dust and stinking cloud as examples. Stinking cloud can be a pretty useful spell. There are direct damage conjuration spells with DC's on them to go with those CC DC spells.

I can fit in conjuration and enchantment on a wizard and I can make conjuration work on a sorc, so I can see players doing that if that's what it takes. Implosion DC's with grind are still going to be those implosion DC's with grind on favored souls.

Rather high saves won't stop players who want them from achieving them because DC's can be achieved for those that want them and there are other builds working for those who don't want to put the effort into those DC's.

I do agree the DC casting became more difficult and costly in prep time debuffing plus SP. I'm not convinced it's completely dead. I do think players will either grind out what works best or change to what is easier for them. It's not necessary an issue with the game if the optimal builds are no longer the optimal builds; that's just the flip side of a coin or putting the shoe on the other foot.

[fork_aka_spoon]

It's also epic elite and conjuration is not just web. It's also glitter dust and stinking cloud as examples. Stinking cloud can be a pretty useful spell. There are direct damage conjuration spells with DC's on them to go with those CC DC spells.

I can fit in conjuration and enchantment on a wizard and I can make conjuration work on a sorc, so I can see players doing that if that's what it takes. Implosion DC's with grind are still going to be those implosion DC's with grind on favored souls.

Rather high saves won't stop players who want them from achieving them because DC's can be achieved for those that want them and there are other builds working for those who don't want to put the effort into those DC's.

I do agree the DC casting became more difficult and costly in prep time debuffing plus SP. I'm not convinced it's completely dead. I do think players will either grind out what works best or change to what is easier for them. It's not necessary an issue with the game if the optimal builds are no longer the optimal builds; that's just the flip side of a coin or putting the shoe on the other foot.

Very well said. +1 to this.

[Moltier]

Was referring to epics. having 100 AC or having 10 in the old system was effectively the same.

That is not true. :P
Only like 1% of the old epic trash mobs could hit 100AC more then 5% of the time.
And that without debuffs.
Back then i played with 90-95AC most of the time, because it was enough for a lot of misses.

[Inouk]

It's also epic elite and conjuration is not just web. It's also glitter dust and stinking cloud as examples. Stinking cloud can be a pretty useful spell. There are direct damage conjuration spells with DC's on them to go with those CC DC spells.

I can fit in conjuration and enchantment on a wizard and I can make conjuration work on a sorc, so I can see players doing that if that's what it takes. Implosion DC's with grind are still going to be those implosion DC's with grind on favored souls.

Rather high saves won't stop players who want them from achieving them because DC's can be achieved for those that want them and there are other builds working for those who don't want to put the effort into those DC's.

I do agree the DC casting became more difficult and costly in prep time debuffing plus SP. I'm not convinced it's completely dead. I do think players will either grind out what works best or change to what is easier for them. It's not necessary an issue with the game if the optimal builds are no longer the optimal builds; that's just the flip side of a coin or putting the shoe on the other foot.

So what the "fine as is" crowd seems to have boiled this down to is, CC casting isn't dead, only necro casting is dead, and that should be just fine with all you people who put in the time and effort to level a PM. Now you can play your PM like an arch-mage, so shut your face and be fine with that. Or.... you can continue to focus on your PrE specialty and accept the fact that you will be completely ineffective in much content where your spells won't work no matter how much focus you put on them and your famed wizard versatility is moot because without throwing everything into one school (and you chose necro, so sorry for you) those schools are no longer useful, but THAT'S OKAY TOO!

So pale master has been eviscerated and arch-mage pigeon-holed into a 1-trick pony (but at least they get a choice between web or enchant), and that's totally okay. I fail to understand you people.

[Nitesco]

So what the "fine as is" crowd seems to have boiled this down to is, CC casting isn't dead, only necro casting is dead, and that should be just fine with all you people who put in the time and effort to level a PM. Now you can play your PM like an arch-mage, so shut your face and be fine with that. Or.... you can continue to focus on your PrE specialty and accept the fact that you will be completely ineffective in much content where your spells won't work no matter how much focus you put on them and your famed wizard versatility is moot because without throwing everything into one school (and you chose necro, so sorry for you) those schools are no longer useful, but THAT'S OKAY TOO!

So pale master has been eviscerated and arch-mage pigeon-holed into a 1-trick pony (but at least they get a choice between web or enchant), and that's totally okay. I fail to understand you people.

Yep I sense a ton of parochialism in some of these posts. It's a cross between 'I spent hundreds of hours grinding to be effective in EE, if you won't suffer what I did, you deserve to be a gimp' and 'I want DC casting to work, but Wizards in Magister shouldn't have any DC advantage'. Meanwhile 1st life Shiradi's with no gear can stomp through EE's, loot rinse repeat..

[fool101]

my PM is not particularly geared, and is on his second life ED grind. I can get to 53DC with the 20 sec Magister clicky.

I stay out of EE content with this character most of the time. I have no problem with that.

This weekend I did run EE (a easy one, House P I think). I threw down web + disco ball (sometimes symbol of death too) and ran the mobs through 3-4 times. I CCed almost half the mobs (when not using the clicky). The melees were able to take out the remaining mobs at about the same time the CCed mobs broke free. I would imagine this is how the hard EE's might work with a maxxed character. But I haven't gotten that far yet since I don't own High Road yet.

[Ape_Man]

That is not true. :P
Only like 1% of the old epic trash mobs could hit 100AC more then 5% of the time.
And that without debuffs.
Back then i played with 90-95AC most of the time, because it was enough for a lot of misses.

I should have said 10-80. Yes, 100 AC would get you missed by some/a lot (depending on the quest) trash but it wasn't worth the DPS loss to build/equip toons to hit those numbers.

Just like it's not worth building for high DCs when saves escalate much higher than DCs.

I really don't get that, the saves are about right in the MoTU packs and the balance between different types of casters and good melees on EE feels right in that content.

[Ape_Man]

my PM is not particularly geared, and is on his second life ED grind. I can get to 53DC with the 20 sec Magister clicky.

I stay out of EE content with this character most of the time. I have no problem with that.

This weekend I did run EE (a easy one, House P I think). I threw down web + disco ball (sometimes symbol of death too) and ran the mobs through 3-4 times. I CCed almost half the mobs (when not using the clicky). The melees were able to take out the remaining mobs at about the same time the CCed mobs broke free. I would imagine this is how the hard EE's might work with a maxxed character. But I haven't gotten that far yet since I don't own High Road yet.

"Old" epics and MoTU EEs have reasonable saves. We're talking about High Road and Gianthold.

[smatt]

"Old" epics and MoTU EEs have reasonable saves. We're talking about High Road and Gianthold.


So the save DC's should go up as the quest level does? The highest difficulty setting in the highest level content in the game shouldn't be set to be even remotely challenging/resource intensive? And if it's not for a particular build/class on average, then the problem is with THAT build/class not the quest/mob stats themselves. IMO

[Ape_Man]

So the save DC's should go up as the quest level does? The highest difficulty setting in the highest level content in the game shouldn't be set to be even remotely challenging/resource intensive?

The saves SHOULD go up as content gets higher level. But the degree in which they go up in High Road and EGH is silly, that and the lack of a weak save to target.

I'm sorry, CR60 trash mobs is just ********.

Personally I've just stopped bringing my Wizard to those quests. I didn't see the point as in a stable full of toons I have other/better options. My toons that aren't affected by DCs don't care




And if it's not for a particular build/class on average, then the problem is with THAT build/class not the quest/mob stats themselves. IMO

That doesn't make any sense. If maxxed out DC casters can't land anything reliably then non-maxxed out DC casters won't land anything at all. The choice then if wanting to play a caster in such content is to abandon DCs all together.

[Dolphious]

So the save DC's should go up as the quest level does? The highest difficulty setting in the highest level content in the game shouldn't be set to be even remotely challenging/resource intensive? And if it's not for a particular build/class on average, then the problem is with THAT build/class not the quest/mob stats themselves. IMO

Got to agree with that. Most builds/classes do not waltz through EE high road solo, even most builds with many past lives and great gear. If there is in fact some very specific and probably unintended build combinations combinations that can blow them away (literally and figuratively...) that is more a statement about those builds than about the content. Not saying anything should be nerfed, I don't know enough about them to say, but the reports that you have t debuff before you CC/instakill don't strike me as terribly concerning.

That said I do like the idea of weakening mobs "weak save" to promote more varied and targeted casting. maybe -1 to their "middle save" and -3 to the "weak save." There does seem to be a lot of mobs out there with very strong saves all around.

[smatt]

Got to agree with that. Most builds/classes do not waltz through EE high road solo, even most builds with many past lives and great gear. If there is in fact some very specific and probably unintended build combinations combinations that can blow them away (literally and figuratively...) that is more a statement about those builds than about the content. Not saying anything should be nerfed, I don't know enough about them to say, but the reports that you have t debuff before you CC/instakill don't strike me as terribly concerning.

That said I do like the idea of weakening mobs "weak save" to promote more varied and targeted casting. maybe -1 to their "middle save" and -3 to the "weak save." There does seem to be a lot of mobs out there with very strong saves all around.


Yes, I could see that.... But the REAL problem is that Turbine leaves the easy button stuff int he game for far too long... Menaing the WAY overpowered spell/skill/build/easy to get to chest/way too easy huge XP per minute quest etc etc.... Then what happens is either htey have to ramp up everything else to that measure, or nerf the former, which too many people ahve gotten used to... And we know where that goes... Crazy little nutter gamer geeks running around having heart attacks :D IE: The socalled nerf ot House of rusted hamster wheels.... DoOOoOooooOoom you only get 13k xp for 1.5 minutes instead of 15k.... Ya big deal.... And yes I do believe it's related to the topic of this thread, since it's Turbine that allows these overpowered and or overly easy situations to go on for far too long. People get spoiled....

There ecertainly are some over-powered ED's... Ones that set the bar too high for all the others... BUT you can't balance the entire game around the top couple %.... There will always be the over-achievers... Nothing you can do about them.... But there will always be the class/build of the month(update/mod) as well.... That's part of the deal... Rebuild/rebuild/rebuild.... It's the MMO mantra :o

[smatt]

The saves SHOULD go up as content gets higher level. But the degree in which they go up in High Road and EGH is silly, that and the lack of a weak save to target.

I'm sorry, CR60 trash mobs is just ********.

Personally I've just stopped bringing my Wizard to those quests. I didn't see the point as in a stable full of toons I have other/better options. My toons that aren't affected by DCs don't care




That doesn't make any sense. If maxxed out DC casters can't land anything reliably then non-maxxed out DC casters won't land anything at all. The choice then if wanting to play a caster in such content is to abandon DCs all together.


Hyperbole... ;)

[Vordax]

The saves SHOULD go up as content gets higher level. But the degree in which they go up in High Road and EGH is silly, that and the lack of a weak save to target.


Saves should go up with new higher level content, but there should also be a way to increase DC's released with the new content. Currently the necro DC that a PM can reach is identical today to what it was when U14 was released. U17 doesn't appear to have any new increases available either. So saves get higher and higher but the DC's that can be reached remain static. Sounds like a losing battle.

[Ape_Man]

Saves should go up with new higher level content, but there should also be a way to increase DC's released with the new content. Currently the necro DC that a PM can reach is identical today to what it was when U14 was released. U17 doesn't appear to have any new increases available either. So saves get higher and higher but the DC's that can be reached remain static. Sounds like a losing battle.

And that's the point that others aren't getting.

DDO is a grind based game, carrot and stick. If the carrot (in this case reliable DCs) isn't achievable what's the point in staying on hamster wheel?

[smatt]

Saves should go up with new higher level content, but there should also be a way to increase DC's released with the new content. Currently the necro DC that a PM can reach is identical today to what it was when U14 was released. U17 doesn't appear to have any new increases available either. So saves get higher and higher but the DC's that can be reached remain static. Sounds like a losing battle.


Well they did increase the possibilites with ED's... But let's also face the FACT that PM's have been overpowered since U-14.... That should've never happened and is yet another example of the DDO team not being reactive enough to things that are over/under powered. Moving quickly to make balance adjustments.

And they have that annoying Arcane skelly soundtrack of hell going when in form, it like 10 cats scratching a chalkboard at the same time. They get NO love from me.. The Dev who thought THAT was a good idea should have his balls smashed in a vice... ;)

[smatt]

And that's the point that others aren't getting.

DDO is a grind based game, carrot and stick. If the carrot (in this case reliable DCs) isn't achievable what's the point in staying on hamster wheel?


So exactly what is YOUR bar for reliable? 100% (seems likely), 90%, 70%, 50%?

[Ape_Man]

Well they did increase the possibilites with ED's... But let's also face the FACT that PM's have been overpowered since U-14.... That should've never happened and is yet another example of the DDO team not being reactive enough to things that are over/under powered. Moving quickly to make balance adjustments.

Nonsense. PMs have been over powered since U9 (I think, when'd they remove deathward?). :)

U14 got a nerfed WoTB.

Other classes and builds got WAY more powerful with U14 than PMs. PMs (DC casters in general) got more DCs but the saves went up proportionally in the pre U16 EEs so it's arguable any ground was gained.

Sure they're gods in EN/EH but what isn't?

[Nitesco]

So exactly what is YOUR bar for reliable? 100% (seems likely), 90%, 70%, 50%?

Mine would be something like this.

A level 25 fully TR'd Elf Pale Master with best-in-slot gear, max DC boosting feats and enhancements, all Ed's maxxed and twisted with +4 Int tome and all possible ED tomes from store should be getting 90% success rate.

A level 25 first life any race Wizard with best-in-slot gear, max DC boosting feats and ehnancements, with just Magister maxxed and a +4 Int tome should be getting AT LEAST a 50% success rate.

Then make an adjustment to mob saves within that range to achieve it.

[slimkj]

Meanwhile 1st life Shiradi's with no gear can stomp through EE's, loot rinse repeat..
Slight exaggeration :) Still takes some skill & gear to "stomp" EEs...

[Ape_Man]

So exactly what is YOUR bar for reliable? 100% (seems likely), 90%, 70%, 50%?

For Necro? I personally feel a maxed caster should be able to land a finger on a high-fort mob after 1 energy drain 80-90% of the time. That's 100 SP a kill and reasonable. WoTB won't clear a room of them, neither will CoD. Mean a non-maxxed PM could land a kill after an energy drain and a curse.

And all mobs should have a weak save. brutish fighter types shouldn't shrug off a DC 50+ enchant. Casters shouldn't have insane reflex and fort.

[voodoogroves]

For Necro? I personally feel a maxed caster should be able to land a finger on a high-fort mob after 1 energy drain 80-90% of the time. That's 100 SP a kill and reasonable. WoTB won't clear a room of them, neither will CoD. Mean a non-maxxed PM could land a kill after an energy drain and a curse.
Could kill ... what % chance are you looking at?


And all mobs should have a weak save. brutish fighter types shouldn't shrug off a DC 50+ enchant. Casters shouldn't have insane reflex and fort.
Funny enough, most PC casters I know mucking in epics have a **** will save and insane reflex / fort ... ;-)

[Feralthyrtiaq]

can help with your DCs!

Especially a Druid in Water Elemental Form has a spell Chill of Winter iirc that causes ALL the Druid's cold spells to debuff mob fort and reflex by 4, move speed by 50% and attack speed by 10%.

Could it be that EE mobs saves are balanced around a .....*GASP* party of adventurers working together?


Oh right that won't work....you don't want to wait....you want to solo....etc etc etc.

[Ape_Man]

Could it be that EE mobs saves are balanced around a .....*GASP* party of adventurers working together?



yes, I'll only allow melees in my groups with dual woowoo blades from CiTW. That'll make for some epic kill-stealing and fun for all! :)

[smatt]

For Necro? I personally feel a maxed caster should be able to land a finger on a high-fort mob after 1 energy drain 80-90% of the time. That's 100 SP a kill and reasonable. WoTB won't clear a room of them, neither will CoD. Mean a non-maxxed PM could land a kill after an energy drain and a curse. After a debuff sure 80% or so is reasonable. IMO


And all mobs should have a weak save. brutish fighter types shouldn't shrug off a DC 50+ enchant. Casters shouldn't have insane reflex and fort. I don't see 50_+ enchant DC's being that ineffective.... Even without debuffs they seem to catch more than 75% of the time on first pass through.


I'm sorry I still don't agree with the idea that mobs in EE are too difficult for DC casters..... I guess I see the game differently... Personally I dont' go along with the "I'm superman caster" blah blah everything mentality, whether it's DC or damage based. But that's just my opinion on the game, I know others place their ego and inner feelins of self-importance so high that they like the opposite, and think that with all things given they should be able to walk through anything.

note: I'm nto placing oyu in any catagory other than one having a differing opinion from mine.

[WruntJunior]

After a debuff sure 80% or so is reasonable. IMO

I don't see 50_+ enchant DC's being that ineffective.... Even without debuffs they seem to catch more than 75% of the time on first pass through.


I'm sorry I still don't agree with the idea that mobs in EE are too difficult for DC casters..... I guess I see the game differently... Personally I dont' go along with the "I'm superman caster" blah blah everything mentality, whether it's DC or damage based. But that's just my opinion on the game, I know others place their ego and inner feelins of self-importance so high that they like the opposite, and think that with all things given they should be able to walk through anything.

note: I'm nto placing oyu in any catagory other than one having a differing opinion from mine.

I don't see why you think a fully maxed-out caster should have to debuff and such to have a good chance of landing DCs. What you seem to be missing here is that that means that people without maxed-out DCs aren't anywhere near as effective. Requiring people to max out a wizard to be effective in EEs when other classes don't have to be close to maxed out to useful just makes many casters rather go the DPS route rather than the DC route.

In addition, I tried a 54 enchantment DC in EE High Road several times, and it worked around 50-60% of the time without significant debuffing (however, with hypno + mind fog + bestow curse, they were locked down pretty well until they managed to shake one of the debuffs...though at a very high price in SP). Something's wrong with the saves in EE High Road, and it seems GH is continuing the trend (note that pre-u16 - possibly to the exclusion of u15, as I never found that chain interesting enough to run on EE - EE DCs aren't that unreasonable, and my caster could reliably land spells...EE High Road, on the other hand, and the implication that this trend will continue, are the reasons that my caster is now holding level 17 as a sorc). Even more worrisome is that mob DCs are accelerating while we haven't gotten anything to further increase our DCs since u14 released. At this rate, come u18 or u19, the CC of choice will be bards rather than wizards.

Edit: Basically, what I'm trying to say is a fully-geared character should be able to be readily effective at the task for which the character is geared. As it is now, my FvS with Blitz up kills enemies faster and more efficiently than my palemaster did in High Road EEs (or in most EEs, really), and the trend seems to continue into u17. It just makes no sense that DC casters are so badly balanced.

[smatt]

I don't see why you think a fully maxed-out caster should have to debuff and such to have a good chance of landing DCs. What you seem to be missing here is that that means that people without maxed-out DCs aren't anywhere near as effective. Requiring people to max out a wizard to be effective in EEs when other classes don't have to be close to maxed out to useful just makes many casters rather go the DPS route rather than the DC route. I'm sorry that you're failing to read my other points... Teh ones that say things like thye Shiradi's are stupidly overpowered all things considered. And that I dont' think the EE's should be a walk over for ANY character. But that's OK..


In addition, I tried a 54 enchantment DC in EE High Road several times, and it worked around 50-60% I saw it work more often are oyu sure oyu aren't exagerating?
Something's wrong with the saves in EE High Road, and it seems GH is continuing the trend (note that pre-u16 - possibly to the exclusion of u15, as I never found that chain interesting enough to run on EE - EE DCs aren't that unreasonable, and my caster could reliably land spells...EE High Road, on the other hand, and the implication that this trend will continue, are the reasons that my caster is now holding level 17 as a sorc). Even more worrisome is that mob DCs are accelerating while we haven't gotten anything to further increase our DCs since u14 released. At this rate, come u18 or u19, the CC of choice will be bards rather than wizards. I still think it's fine... But if oyu think AOE/damage casters are THAT far ahead in effectiveness perhaps they should be taken DOWN a notch instead of increasing the power of the DC casters... Alas... That never goe swell with gamer geeks though (not talking directly to you) ... Taking away a lolipop is always much harder than giving one.

[Ape_Man]

After a debuff sure 80% or so is reasonable. IMO

Good enough for me. But you do realize that prices the non-maxed guy completely out of the market.



I don't see 50_+ enchant DC's being that ineffective.... Even without debuffs they seem to catch more than 75% of the time on first pass through.

What content are you referring to? I know YMMV and maybe I just have horrible dice but even after changing magister focus to Enchantment and getting a 55 DC with temp buffs I've not found that working to be what I would consider effective in High Road. Even with debuffs like mind fog, Symbol of death, more would save than not.

I know others have better luck, maybe mine's just bad.

[WruntJunior]

I'm sorry that you're failing to read my other points... Teh ones that say things like thye Shiradi's are stupidly overpowered all things considered. And that I dont' think the EE's should be a walk over for ANY character. But that's OK..

I didn't fail to read it, I just completely disagree with it. I don't think Shiradi is overpowered, I think DC casting is greatly underpowered. I believe if DC casters were properly powerful enough, people wouldn't even see Shiradi Champion as an overpowered ED for arcanes.


I saw it work more often are oyu sure oyu aren't exagerating?

Those are the results I was getting for no debuffs (I tried about 3 or 4 times between Detour and A Stay at the Inn before saying "screw this" and played around with non-CC/instakills). Throwing debuffs of course works now, but like I said, saves continue going up without our DCs increasing, even debuffing won't really be enough - the upper-60s/lower-70s I've heard (haven't been able to test, as I was already back to level 1 by then) for fort with similar will saves means that I would be almost unable to CC effectively without centering every facet of the character around it...and even then, saves go up a bit more and I'm useless.


I still think it's fine... But if oyu think AOE/damage casters are THAT far ahead in effectiveness perhaps they should be taken DOWN a notch instead of increasing the power of the DC casters... Alas... That never goe swell with gamer geeks though (not talking directly to you) ... Taking away a lolipop is always much harder than giving one.

After playing a Blitz melee, a FotW AA, and a DC caster, I can definitively tell you that DC caster is way screwed up compared to others...in a few days, I'll be able to better weigh in on DPS casters with Shiradi, but I don't honestly think they're overpowered - I think they're the level of power an epic caster should have. From a damage perspective, it's not that much ahead of DI - it's just that Shiradi has much better staying power due to much lower costs. Just because something somewhat unexpected is the optimal way to play a certain build doesn't make it overpowered or broken...on the other hand, a valid build that's marginalized due to what could simply be an error in entering numbers (as I don't think anyone sane gives a single enemy roughly 40+ in every save when casters are in the 50s for DCs on most spells when fully maxed out, completionist and all, on purpose) is broken and underpowered. Indeed, the main reason Shiradi Champion Sorcs/Archmages seem so strong right now is because the DCs necessary for a DC caster are so ridiculously high.

[smatt]

Good enough for me. But you do realize that prices the non-maxed guy completely out of the market. Not really.... I don't think the highest level content in the game shoudl be easily accesible. If only 15-20% steps in, I think that's about right, with the lower end of that having a difficult time of it. At least to me it should be a stretch for even the best geared and skilled to run it..... At least it should take some extra effort.... Heck, my toons aren't allt hat grat, nor am I a great player.. I'm simply a longtime vet who's old and lazy... And given a group of equals the quests in question go reasonably well, but can also fall apart pretty easily if we mess up... And if that's the case then the really good plaeyrs with really good toons should be having little toruble at all.




What content are you referring to? I know YMMV and maybe I just have horrible dice but even after changing magister focus to Enchantment and getting a 55 DC with temp buffs I've not found that working to be what I would consider effective in High Road. Even with debuffs like mind fog, Symbol of death, more would save than not.

I know others have better luck, maybe mine's just bad. High road stuff.... Maybe you do have bad dice, or someking od display bug.. I'm at a 51 enchant DC and find it working at what appears to be 70% without debuffs on the first pass through... But that's an estimation.. I'm pretty lazy so actually bothering to pay clsoe attention all the time is well.. Not that important to me.. Unless I'm on a mission to actually do it... ;)

I understand the points you're making, I think I just have a differnt idea as far as how hard EE should be as well as the balance within the game. Nerfs to thigns that are obvisouly overpowered, whether they effect MY characters or not haven't typically bothered me... But they most certainly do bother others... Which I understand.... When I find an unworkable situation I just go off to a different part of the game till things swing the other way, and they always do....

[Ancient]

I didn't fail to read it, I just completely disagree with it. I don't think Shiradi is overpowered, I think DC casting is greatly underpowered. I believe if DC casters were properly powerful enough, people wouldn't even see Shiradi Champion as an overpowered ED for arcanes.
One of the amusing parts of this thread for me has been the acceptance of non-DC casters as a valid build. When I posted Novasoul, almost half the posts were lectures that I was missing the "real power" by not devoting the entire build to DCs. Now I have a "to-do" to take a second look at Shiradi on my novasoul to see how that works out :)

I think there are two valid concerns regarding U17.

1. U17 doesn't offer anything to DC casters. The DC difficulty bar got raised, but nothing was provided for them to get over the newly increased difficulty.
2. D20 DCs suffer from the same problem that AC used to have. A 1-20 range offers a very narrow window of balance which can easily slip into too hard or too easy. As more options are offered to specialize in DCs, then the window of expected DC ranges for players becomes wider than that narrow D20 window and the system breaks down. I'm calling it now, a spell DC revamp is on its way..... it has to be for the game to progress.

[Ape_Man]

Not really.... I don't think the highest level content in the game shoudl be easily accesible. If only 15-20% steps in, I think that's about right, with the lower end of that having a difficult time of it. At least to me it should be a stretch for even the best geared and skilled to run it..... At least it should take some extra effort.... Heck, my toons aren't allt hat grat, nor am I a great player.. I'm simply a longtime vet who's old and lazy... And given a group of equals the quests in question go reasonably well, but can also fall apart pretty easily if we mess up... And if that's the case then the really good plaeyrs with really good toons should be having little toruble at all.


So completely maxed out or be a buffbot if your a DC caster. Or give up on DC-casting. That's pretty much what you're left with if saves are going higher in GH like it's being reported.




High road stuff.... Maybe you do have bad dice, or someking od display bug.. I'm at a 51 enchant DC and find it working at what appears to be 70% without debuffs on the first pass through... But that's an estimation.. I'm pretty lazy so actually bothering to pay clsoe attention all the time is well.. Not that important to me.. Unless I'm on a mission to actually do it... ;)

I want your dice, mine suck.




I understand the points you're making, I think I just have a differnt idea as far as how hard EE should be as well as the balance within the game. Nerfs to thigns that are obvisouly overpowered, whether they effect MY characters or not haven't typically bothered me... But they most certainly do bother others... Which I understand.... When I find an unworkable situation I just go off to a different part of the game till things swing the other way, and they always do....

EE High Road isn't that hard, I've just stopped bothering to bring DC casters and bring other toons as what they bring to the table just works better.

Best zerg run I ever saw of EE detour had a fascinating bard, a FvS, and a bunch of TWFing melees with woowoo weapons.

Regarding nerfs . . . I'm not sure the Shiradi awesomeness with casters was intended. Will it be nerfed? If the players find it fun and effective probably.

[Loriac]

What Turbine doesn't seem to understand is that power creep is a two way street.

Raising mob saves simply means that PC DCs will have to go up eventually. Once EE effectiveness of DC casters is lowered beneath an acceptable threshold, players will vote with their feet and play different classes. At some point, as has happened in the past, Turbine will notice this and think oh ****, we need to fix DC casters. And cue a new round of spell changes that make DC casters viable again, and a chorus of calls for nerfs from melee players.

This is utterly bizarre imo. U14 and 15 seemed to get the balance about right, and they should have kept this as the stable benchmark. On the loot side, they seem to have got that message - there haven't been egregiously overpowered properties added, nor have new +stat or +DC properties been added.

If character levels are static (which they currently are) and item properties are also not inflated, there is zero justification to raise mob saves. It is as simple as that. Instead, we have a reactive design process that appears to have no knowledge of consequences; rather than avoiding a future mess, the current trend seems to be blundering into it.

[Ape_Man]

One of the amusing parts of this thread for me has been the acceptance of non-DC casters as a valid build. When I posted Novasoul, almost half the posts were lectures that I was missing the "real power" by not devoting the entire build to DCs. Now I have a "to-do" to take a second look at Shiradi on my novasoul to see how that works out :)

You're ahead of your time, I saw those threads and they are hilarious in hindsight.

I think there are two valid concerns regarding U17.



1. U17 doesn't offer anything to DC casters. The DC difficulty bar got raised, but nothing was provided for them to get over the newly increased difficulty.

There is ebb and flow of power creep. Remember when Amrath first came out and is now completely trivial?

The power creep needed to make things reasonable will RUIN all content where things are previously balanced. That's not good for the long term health of the game.



2. D20 DCs suffer from the same problem that AC used to have. A 1-20 range offers a very narrow window of balance which can easily slip into too hard or too easy. As more options are offered to specialize in DCs, then the window of expected DC ranges for players becomes wider than that narrow D20 window and the system breaks down. I'm calling it now, a spell DC revamp is on its way..... it has to be for the game to progress.

it's not that big of a window if you build for DCs. That means max INT, best gear you can get your hands on.

Below is maxed (sustainable) INT.

18 Initial
6 Levels
4 Enhancements
4 Tome
8 item
1 Exceptional
3 Insightful
2 Capstone
3 Twists (Fate Singer thingy, two +1 in the other slots)
2 Lich
2 Yugo
1 Litany
6 ED
2 Airship
2 Completionist (I don't have this . . . but we're talking maxed)

64 - Drow and a +5 Tome could get 66 but I'm going with Human for now.

DC with that is . . .

Necro DC
27 Int
3 SF
3 item (Stuff, random junk, Mabar robe)
1 lich
19 Base/Spell
1 PL
3 ED Focus

57 pretty friggin high.


Let's take that int down to what a 34 pointer will see, no Litany, +3 tome.

18 Initial
6 Levels
4 Enhancements
3 Tome
8 item
1 Exceptional
3 Insightful
2 Capstone
3 Twists
2 Lich
2 Yugo
6 ED
2 Airship


60 - Max achievable DC was only two lower for a 34-pointer with more reasonable gear/tomes all of which are farmable as non-raid loot.

So say the gear ain't there yet and the INT's only

18 Initial
6 Levels
4 Enhancements
3 Tome
8 item (I'm sorry, they are cheap on the AH at this time)
2 Capstone
3 Twists
2 Lich
2 Yugo
6 ED
2 Airship


56 - Still only a 4 DC swing from the max sustainable DC

So if Mr 57 DC after an energy drain can nail a target 80% of the time, Mr. 53 DC will get it 60% of the time.

The swing isn't that bad.

[Ape_Man]

What Turbine doesn't seem to understand is that power creep is a two way street.

Raising mob saves simply means that PC DCs will have to go up eventually. Once EE effectiveness of DC casters is lowered beneath an acceptable threshold, players will vote with their feet and play different classes. At some point, as has happened in the past, Turbine will notice this and think oh ****, we need to fix DC casters. And cue a new round of spell changes that make DC casters viable again, and a chorus of calls for nerfs from melee players.

This is utterly bizarre imo. U14 and 15 seemed to get the balance about right, and they should have kept this as the stable benchmark. On the loot side, they seem to have got that message - there haven't been egregiously overpowered properties added, nor have new +stat or +DC properties been added.

If character levels are static (which they currently are) and item properties are also not inflated, there is zero justification to raise mob saves. It is as simple as that. Instead, we have a reactive design process that appears to have no knowledge of consequences; rather than avoiding a future mess, the current trend seems to be blundering into it.

Exactly! So good to see that somebody actually gets it. I only wish that somebody was Turbine who seems to thing the only thing they can do to add challenge is keep making the numbers bigger.

The better mousetrap only breeds a smarter mouse. Make a fence too high and we will go around it.

[Lycurgus]

Requiring people to max out a wizard to be effective in EEs when other classes don't have to be close to maxed out to useful just makes many casters rather go the DPS route rather than the DC route.

In addition, I tried a 54 enchantment DC in EE High Road several times, and it worked around 50-60% of the time without significant debuffing...

I have to wonder if the DPS route being more accessible isn't by design. It's easier for the devs to balance classes based on DPS, while balancing DCs is more challenging.

Just to add another voice to the mix, I've found 55 enchant to work reasonably well in EE High Road, picking up stragglers with the 2nd and/or 3rd tier SLA. Reasonably well meaning a ballpark estimate of 80+% success on traditionally weak will npcs.

I think a lot of these concerns might be alleviated if they made it possible to swap spell focuses without the traditional requirements for a feat exchange. Part of what's frustrating is being locked into a relatively one dimensional build which is overkill for the vast majority of the game.

Just thoughts.

[Matuse]

Funny enough, most PC casters I know mucking in epics have a **** will save and insane reflex / fort ... ;-)

Most* PC casters I know don't have infinite spellpoints and 15000 hp.

Maybe comparing monsters to players is not the best route to take.



*- All.

[mystafyi]

Could it be that EE mobs saves are balanced around a .....*GASP* party of adventurers working together?


Oh right that won't work....you don't want to wait....you want to solo....etc etc etc.


Sorry, but turbine has been balancing this game around solo play for a couple years now. I dont agree with a solo mmo, but cant win a fight with the game designers.

more likely scenario is that turbine dev's dont understand their own game. The constant push to sell anything via the ddostore overrides any voice of reason left at turbine.

[HalfORCastrator]

Let's take that int down to what a 34 pointer will see, no Litany, +3 tome.
Depends on how much focus you put into the toon at 20-25. Litany(~40 runs) and +4 tomes(5-6 reds/~2m plat) are doable.



Let's take that int down to what a 34 pointer will see, no Litany, +3 tome.

3 Twists

60 - Max achievable DC was only two lower for a 34-pointer with more reasonable gear/tomes all of which are farmable as non-raid loot.

So say the gear ain't there yet and the INT's only

8 item (I'm sorry, they are cheap on the AH at this time)
3 Twists

56 - Still only a 4 DC swing from the max sustainable DC

So if Mr 57 DC after an energy drain can nail a target 80% of the time, Mr. 53 DC will get it 60% of the time.

The swing isn't that bad.
Only issue for the non-completionist calculations is the twists. You'll need 3 spell pen(draconic) in one of them, so -1 int.

As far as gear, probably the toughest thing for int(besides Litany) is exceptional, since slots (after U14, but before U17) have been getting rarer and rarer on gear. +3 insightful is easy enough, I've seen Spidersilks going for 200k or less on the AH. +8 int goggles for 200k or less too.

[AtomicMew]

Depends on how much focus you put into the toon at 20-25. Litany(~40 runs) and +4 tomes(5-6 reds/~2m plat) are doable.


Only issue for the non-completionist calculations is the twists. You'll need 3 spell pen(draconic) in one of them, so -1 int.

As far as gear, probably the toughest thing for int(besides Litany) is exceptional, since slots (after U14, but before U17) have been getting rarer and rarer on gear. +3 insightful is easy enough, I've seen Spidersilks going for 200k or less on the AH. +8 int goggles for 200k or less too.

You actually don't need to twist in spell penetration and that's because end game is no longer drow centric. PDK is now once and done, whereas you'll be grinding GH for quite some time. Build towards the content that is actually relevant.

[Ancient]

The power creep needed to make things reasonable will RUIN all content where things are previously balanced. That's not good for the long term health of the game.



56 - Still only a 4 DC swing from the max sustainable DC

So if Mr 57 DC after an energy drain can nail a target 80% of the time, Mr. 53 DC will get it 60% of the time.

The swing isn't that bad.

Very convincing arguments.

[Viconiax]

After reading through most pages in this thread, I just want to say:

1. Stop using shiradi as a scapegoat, it is not that overpowered, how many 1st lifer have you see soloing difficult ee like don't drink the water on ee with only shiradi? Also, a good moncher can deal as much dmg like a shiradi with switching around manyshot + 10k star adrenaline....oh, guess people want to nerf them again now. Even a monk with haste boost from dreadnought with grandmaster wind stance + void strike 4 could be able to out-kill a shiradi arcane.

2. We don't need anymore nerf, they just make people leaving this game. And the crowd that want to nerf an ability probably is the one that see other people better than them using it and want to nerf an ability because...(Oh no! Their toon is better than mine!). Shiradi is one of the best and the most fun thing that the dev had ever introduced into this game (do you like turning monsters into kobold or summon a cow in a raid and confuse your entire group with an explosive bacon barrel? I would like to see satchel charge effect from potion of wonder to be able to proc with rainbow also...that is one of the most hilarious effect in ddo....run Forest...run!!!!)

3. Don't do EE unless your toon is ready for it.

4. I do think the dev should reduce the saves of some mobs in EE gh, unless they introduce new items that could increase caster dc.

5. Make people working together with each other should be nice...dungeon scaling had turn this game from a party/group game like dnd game into a single player solo game.

6. Where is my bacon? *Pray to the porkie god to give me more bacon*

[mystafyi]

turn this game from a party/group game like dnd game into a single player solo game.

sadly, ddo is becoming a single player mmo. lol, what irony.

[Loriac]

I have to wonder if the DPS route being more accessible isn't by design. It's easier for the devs to balance classes based on DPS, while balancing DCs is more challenging.


Nope, no overarching design goals are evident apart from bigger numbers.

If the designers were looking to funnel arcanes into the dps route, then they'd keep reflex saves static and increase the other two. What we're seeing is all saves inexorably rising, meaning that save-or-die spells and reflex save based nukes are becoming harder to land. In FR content, I would argue that its already bad enough that playing air savant is an exercise in frustration.

The only reliable source of dps is single target no-save type spells (largely the stackable DoTs) and of course melee damage. On the ED side of things, FotW, LD, and Shiradi are bringing dps capabilities (to those making an example of shiradi as 'overpowered', take a look at what masters blitz or adrenaline can do first).

When you have ranged characters bursting for 60k damage in under 10 seconds, or melee maintaining masters blitz throughout the majority of a quest, but at the same time the designers are putting whatever obstacles they can think of to prevent arcanes from maintaining their current damage output in new content, you see this for what it is - a hysterical overreaction to a perception that arcanes are currently overpowered when in fact class balance over the last couple of updates is about the best its ever been in the history of DDO.

[Ape_Man]

. . . class balance over the last couple of updates is about the best its ever been in the history of DDO.

I'd have to agree with this, at least in EEs where the HP are high enough that you just can't Energy Burst everything into ashes.

[maddmatt70]

The game ebbs and flows. Reflex has always been giants, trolls, and ogres weakest save with will save being second and fortitude being very high. Shades tend to have good saves as well in faerun - which was in essence the main monster in update 16. This whole thread/original post is overdramatic. DDO has been going on a long time unfortunately the devs have only been able to create three types of caster builds that have been viable in DDO's history enchantment, evocation, and necromancy. All have been the top of the heap at various times and right now its evocation so what have you.

[budalic]

I don't think enchantment is as bad as necromancy is atm - hypno, crushing despair, magister -will debuff work very well together. There's also mind fog, but that's off-school.

Sure, enhanchment archmage or pale with magister is an one-trick pony, but... it's quite a potent trick (50% more damage + ld/fotw epic destiny bonuses) against mooks.

What I feel has made a true impact is that melee dps has been significantly buffed, while spell dps didn't progress much. Before u14, casters could contribute significantly vs. bosses, now... it's either shiradi or you're pretty far behind melees, even with energy burst twisted in.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I think my problem with this discussion is the definition of "reliable"

Many look for the "No Fail" DC as being reliable, others 80%, still others define it as being better than 50% chance.

When the tool you are using has a long cooldown, then it had better land 80% or more of the time or you're in for a world of hurt.

If melee could only swing their Great Axe once every 4 seconds, you can bet that they'd be doing everything they can to make sure that every swing counts.

[danlan]

After reading through most pages in this thread, I just want to say:

1. Stop using shiradi as a scapegoat, it is not that overpowered, how many 1st lifer have you see soloing difficult ee like don't drink the water on ee with only shiradi? Also, a good moncher can deal as much dmg like a shiradi with switching around manyshot + 10k star adrenaline....oh, guess people want to nerf them again now. Even a monk with haste boost from dreadnought with grandmaster wind stance + void strike 4 could be able to out-kill a shiradi arcane.

2. We don't need anymore nerf, they just make people leaving this game. And the crowd that want to nerf an ability probably is the one that see other people better than them using it and want to nerf an ability because...(Oh no! Their toon is better than mine!). Shiradi is one of the best and the most fun thing that the dev had ever introduced into this game (do you like turning monsters into kobold or summon a cow in a raid and confuse your entire group with an explosive bacon barrel? I would like to see satchel charge effect from potion of wonder to be able to proc with rainbow also...that is one of the most hilarious effect in ddo....run Forest...run!!!!)

3. Don't do EE unless your toon is ready for it.

4. I do think the dev should reduce the saves of some mobs in EE gh, unless they introduce new items that could increase caster dc.

5. Make people working together with each other should be nice...dungeon scaling had turn this game from a party/group game like dnd game into a single player solo game.

6. Where is my bacon? *Pray to the porkie god to give me more bacon*

Non geared first life shiradi SHALL NOT do EE more easily than 9 past life best geared wizard, enough said.

There must be some sort of bottom line when balancing power. The above situation touches my nerve for this game as well as many other who have spent endless time & money & effort in our beloved characters.

If the current trend in EE continues on, I can bet many people may gradually rage quit. DDO does not need to be perfectly balanced, but a basic sense of reasonableness and justification must be kept.

[Ape_Man]

Depends on how much focus you put into the toon at 20-25. Litany(~40 runs) and +4 tomes(5-6 reds/~2m plat) are doable.



No, you do not need this twist. The ONLY THING IN THE GAME with that much SR are Drow. There are no drow in GH and like 3 in the High Road. Twist can be changed between every encounter so if you really need the Spell pen drop the INT for 1 DC and take the 3 spell pen.

Walking around with that twisted in full time is not needed.

[Ape_Man]

The game ebbs and flows. Reflex has always been giants, trolls, and ogres weakest save with will save being second and fortitude being very high. Shades tend to have good saves as well in faerun - which was in essence the main monster in update 16. This whole thread/original post is overdramatic. DDO has been going on a long time unfortunately the devs have only been able to create three types of caster builds that have been viable in DDO's history enchantment, evocation, and necromancy. All have been the top of the heap at various times and right now its evocation so what have you.

There is a little exaggeration on my part (the OP) . . . at least regarding high road. I'm going off the reports of the EGH saves because I can't check them out myself.

But the exaggeration is needed to counteract the silliness of the fanbois and their "everything is fine no matter what" attitude.

We are the canaries in a coal mine choking on the trend of every increasing saves.

[Ape_Man]

When the tool you are using has a long cooldown, then it had better land 80% or more of the time or you're in for a world of hurt.

If melee could only swing their Great Axe once every 4 seconds, you can bet that they'd be doing everything they can to make sure that every swing counts.


And if it costs 200ish SP to crowd control an encounter it better friggin land.

[Tid12]

And if it costs 200ish SP to crowd control and encounter it better friggin land.

Exaggeration.

Crushing Despair/Mind fog + Mass hold/Disco respectively is only around 70 SP. If you have at least 51 DC which you should, with just these debuffs CC will land on most if not all mobs.

[Ape_Man]

Exaggeration.

Crushing Despair/Mind fog + Mass hold/Disco respectively is only around 70 SP. If you have at least 51 DC which you should, with just these debuffs CC will land on most if not all mobs.

Throw in a mass-hold and an otto's or two.

[Tid12]

Throw in a mass-hold and an otto's or two.

I did :p

Crushing Despair + Mass hold is 70 SP exactly, same for Mind fog + Otto's. With 2 ottos/Hold+ 1 debuff, still 120 SP.

[budalic]

Throw in a mass-hold and an otto's or two.

You exaggerate purpose of crowd control. You don't use enchantment because crowd control is necessary to complete content (otherwise, bard or wizard would be a requirement to finish any ee quest); you use it because helpless is 50% extra damage + whatever melee epic destinies offer on top of that.

[Inouk]

You exaggerate purpose of crowd control. You don't use enchantment because crowd control is necessary to complete content (otherwise, bard or wizard would be a requirement to finish any ee quest); you use it because helpless is 50% extra damage + whatever melee epic destinies offer on top of that.

Or to put this another way.. you are over stating the impact you can make even blowing 70-100 sp over 10 seconds (that you may not have) of prepping an area for CC.... for what essentially equates to a buff/debuff for your melee toons. So go ahead and grind out the PLs and gear and break every other aspect of your character so that you can provide a (possibly unnecessary) buff to the FvS that is MELEEing everything to death far more effectively than you could ever hope to kill them with your SPECIALTY, death spells... on trash mobs.

Not sure how anyone can miss the obvious imbalance here. Melee has so far surpassed DC casting that divine casters in LD are running around soloing content a DC caster has no hope in. Seems to me the saves need to come down a touch. Debuffing should be for extremely tough mobs/fights (orange named, etc), not for EVERY trash mob you might need to kill or CC.

[budalic]

Or to put this another way.. you are over stating the impact you can make even blowing 70-100 sp over 10 seconds (that you may not have) of prepping an area for CC.... for what essentially equates to a buff/debuff for your melee toons. So go ahead and grind out the PLs and gear and break every other aspect of your character so that you can provide a (possibly unnecessary) buff to the FvS that is MELEEing everything to death far more effectively than you could ever hope to kill them with your SPECIALTY, death spells... on trash mobs.

Not sure how anyone can miss the obvious imbalance here. Melee has so far surpassed DC casting that divine casters in LD are running around soloing content a DC caster has no hope in. Seems to me the saves need to come down a touch. Debuffing should be for extremely tough mobs/fights (orange named, etc), not for EVERY trash mob you might need to kill or CC.

Necro is in kinda bad place in u16/u17 content; but soloing shouldn't be a yardstick for anything.

And, groupwise, LD is in same position as enchantment mages, really - having one in quest group (and in some raid groups) is great, having two... not so much.

[Inouk]

Necro is in kinda bad place in u16/u17 content; but soloing shouldn't be a yardstick for anything.

And, groupwise, LD is in same position as enchantment mages, really - having one in quest group (and in some raid groups) is great, having two... not so much.

Yeah, ironically it seems like they made it really geared for soloing. You need to be the only guy killing for it to really shine.

While I agree that soloing shouldn't necessarily be the yardstick, it's hard not to recognize it as one, especially when talking about a class that has traditionally been among the best solo classes by nature. Still, the point is that the class (and specifically PMs) is designed to do/be something that it currently isn't any good at. It's specialty is supposed to be killing. They are supposed to be preeminent DC based killers, who also shine at CC and do decent DPS as a fallback, and general versatility. THAT is clearly the focus of the class. This role has been stripped from them due to bad balancing. You can argue over whether that role was too broad or powerful (though there are things they clearly didn't do well, especially comparatively), but that IS the role and currently in EE they are incapable of fulfilling it (though EH still seems to be fine). And the point of the OP is that the trend tends to be to make this worse rather than to correct it.

Would a melee get upset if the balance shifted so that even with PA turned off and taking every feat geared toward hitting they were still missing 30% of the time? And without a build completely optimized for to hit they missed more like 80% of the time? And their only utility to a group in EE was to hit things with shattermantle weapons to prep things for the PM in the party because their DPS sucks since they had to dump everything into to-hit feats/twists/EDs? I think they would be upset, and rightly so. This is what PM, and more generally wizards, are facing right now.

[Ape_Man]

Not sure how anyone can miss the obvious imbalance here. Melee has so far surpassed DC casting that divine casters in LD are running around soloing content a DC caster has no hope in. Seems to me the saves need to come down a touch. Debuffing should be for extremely tough mobs/fights (orange named, etc), not for EVERY trash mob you might need to kill or CC.

I know many an evoker FvS who have TR'd/LR'd into a Melee for the above reason.

[Volaxis]

Make EE harder. There should always be an endgame quest that will require many pots, hours of time and lots of pain.

Just because you TR your wizard 3/3/3/3 doesnt give you the right to solo, you could TR your fighter with 3 of everything and it wouldn't guarantee you solo ability.

As for shiradi there will always be a class that can solo, let them.

DC is not dead, when instakill was no fail, wizards did 90% of the work, now they do 20% giving the other 5/6ths of the group room to do their job.

No fail CC is not what EE should be about. The next EE lvl 25 should be a 95% fail rate. We should be stepping into the inferno and only the righteous will survive.

Sadly the game is predictable and us humans quickly overcome most puzzles. There are also many tactics other than mass hold/insta kill. You could have a FVS BB/kite the mobs, Wiz (SP willing) dance a single target and the melles beat him down, PWK any casters, with this statigy a group of first lifers can finish any EE.

[WruntJunior]

Make EE harder. There should always be an endgame quest that will require many pots, hours of time and lots of pain.

Just because you TR your wizard 3/3/3/3 doesnt give you the right to solo, you could TR your fighter with 3 of everything and it wouldn't guarantee you solo ability.

As for shiradi there will always be a class that can solo, let them.

DC is not dead, when instakill was no fail, wizards did 90% of the work, now they do 20% giving the other 5/6ths of the group room to do their job.

No fail CC is not what EE should be about. The next EE lvl 25 should be a 95% fail rate. We should be stepping into the inferno and only the righteous will survive.

Sadly the game is predictable and us humans quickly overcome most puzzles. There are also many tactics other than mass hold/insta kill. You could have a FVS BB/kite the mobs, Wiz (SP willing) dance a single target and the melles beat him down, PWK any casters, with this statigy a group of first lifers can finish any EE.

What you're describing is content that no one would do, except maybe once to prove they can. That's counterproductive to design in an MMO.

[BladeTricks]

Meanwhile 1st life Shiradi's with no gear can stomp through EE's, loot rinse repeat..

Upload on Youtube and share the links please.

[WruntJunior]

Upload on Youtube and share the links please.

Sadly, I can't do that, though my shiradi sorc is almost capped - 5th life with decent gear. :(

[AtomicMew]

Upload on Youtube and share the links please.

Do you really need this? It used to be a little bit "fight club" but now its been posted all over the forum. Do a little searching before posting such inane comments.

[Viconiax]

The bottom line is, shiradi is not THAT overpowered like people think, so stop using it as a scapegoat and blame everything on it, barb/fighter that can keep master blitz going on nearly the whole entire quest or moncher with fury of the wild adrenaline could do the same thing with dps (maybe even more), so it not about shiradi here. We don't need the nerf for epic destinies, all we need now for epic destinies is some love for epic destinies that doesn't much good in it or an ability of an ED (example: magister epic moment need some love).

As for the dc for ee gh, i do think we need to lower it a little bit...although not much to keep ee challenging.

[WruntJunior]

The bottom line is, shiradi is not THAT overpowered like people think, so stop using it as a scapegoat and blame everything on it, barb/fighter that can keep master blitz going on nearly the whole entire quest or moncher with fury of the wild adrenaline could do the same thing with dps (maybe even more), so it not about shiradi here. We don't need the nerf for epic destinies, all we need now for epic destinies is some love for epic destinies that doesn't much good in it or an ability of an ED (example: magister epic moment need some love).

As for the dc for ee gh, i do think we need to lower it a little bit...although not much to keep ee challenging.

Exactly, it's not that Shiradi (or LD or FotW) are overpowered...it's that DC casting is underpowered. It's inane that a melee FvS can solo EE fairly easy while a near-fully-geared, multi-TRed wizard struggles...not to say the FvS should have a difficult time with his task that he's built for, but the wizard should be good at the task for which HE'S built.

[boredman]

DC is not dead, when instakill was no fail, wizards did 90% of the work, now they do 20% giving the other 5/6ths of the group room to do their job.


DC casters can still do a good contribution on EE (i would say more than 20% on most questing), even with just a 50 dc and 42 spell pen, easily achievable + debuffs you can kill or cc a decent number of enemies, just cant do both things (unless lot of pl and gear and also have energy drain and burst for some dps) , and considering that casters have powerful self heal, can use sp pots, to me it seems things are now more fair compared with pre U14 epics where casters were clearly overpowered, now they are still very powerful.

[Mudcnd]

Shiradi should be nerfed if anything....

Does that mean he wasn't exaggerating?

[Volaxis]

What you're describing is content that no one would do, except maybe once to prove they can. That's counterproductive to design in an MMO.

I forgot about the design, run the same quest 1000 times because the only way to set a challenge is to decrease drop rates. How about fail 1000 times but there is a guaranteed reward if your good enough.


DC casters can still do a good contribution on EE (i would say more than 20% on most questing), even with just a 50 dc and 42 spell pen, easily achievable + debuffs you can kill or cc a decent number of enemies, just cant do both things (unless lot of pl and gear and also have energy drain and burst for some dps) , and considering that casters have powerful self heal, can use sp pots, to me it seems things are now more fair compared with pre U14 epics where casters were clearly overpowered, now they are still very powerful.

Yup, my wiz still has highest kills if the rogue doesn't steal them.

[BladeTricks]

Do you really need this? It used to be a little bit "fight club" but now its been posted all over the forum. Do a little searching before posting such inane comments.

I made that "inane" request because I think the overpowered-ness of Shiradi arcanes is exaggerated on these forums. Eth and a few other very skilled players soloing EE on Shiradi spellcasters doesn't mean that all of a sudden "Meanwhile 1st life Shiradi's with no gear can stomp through EE's, loot rinse repeat..".

I am also genuinely interested in seeing it in action since there are plenty of videos of EE solos on youtube but none from Shiradi's.

I've seen spellcasters in Draconic/Exalted Angel/Shiradi, ranged in Fury of the Wild, melees in Legendary Dreadnought/ FotW/GMoF solo EE quests. Should they all be nerfed now because a Magister palemaster cant do it? What would it achieve?

[Scraap]

I made that "inane" request because I think the overpowered-ness of Shiradi arcanes is exaggerated on these forums. Eth and a few other very skilled players soloing EE on Shiradi spellcasters doesn't mean that all of a sudden "Meanwhile 1st life Shiradi's with no gear can stomp through EE's, loot rinse repeat..".

I am also genuinely interested in seeing it in action since there are plenty of videos of EE solos on youtube but none from Shiradi's.

I've seen spellcasters in Draconic/Exalted Angel/Shiradi, ranged in Fury of the Wild, melees in Legendary Dreadnought/ FotW/GMoF solo EE quests. Should they all be nerfed now because a Magister palemaster cant do it? What would it achieve?

I will simply say that having a DC arcane with magister, draconic, and shiradi, that I found quests going quicker, for less resources spent, in the damage-augmenting destinies, than the DC augmenting one, and that that doesn't strike me as particularly well balanced, even through I am an advocate of the notion that "You should be able to weight the dice, sure, but they should never let us beat them".

[AtomicMew]

You don't get to waltz through epic elite with zero tactics like you did epic hard.
Yes I do, it just won't be through DC casting. You seemed to have missed the entire point of this seven page thread. Pretty impressive IMHO.

[Beethoven]

Yes I do, it just won't be through DC casting. You seemed to have missed the entire point of this seven page thread. Pretty impressive IMHO.

The thread is so long because no consensus exists. So people end up arguing various positions. I am surprised you fail to comprehend this as it is a fairly simple principle to understand. It does explain however why DC casting goes over your head.

Epic elite have been solo'ed by various builds running all kinds of Destinies, from Shiradi to Draconic Incarnations, Legendary Dreadnaughts, Grandmaster of Flowers and even Fury of the Wild. Don't believe me? Follow your own advice and check the forums. There is no shortage of builds and EE accomplishment posts not involving Shiradi. So, what? Shiradi's are capable of achieve what numerous other EDs can too?

DC casting has taken a bit of a hit with the last updates, but nothing that could be fixed with better (new) gear in the future (or a revamp of the Magister ED). Meanwhile Evoker AM running Shiradi have become quite powerful, but hardly are the only potent build. I am still at a loss what nerfing Shiradi is supposed to accomplish except again limiting the amount of epic viable builds?

Nerf Shiradi and people are just going to switch back to Draconic Incarnations to faceroll EE and those cannot manage on a DI Sorcerer won't manage on a Shiradi either. Both are capable of delivering significant arcane dps, but damaging (and killing) mobs is only half of it. Every monkey can hurt EE mobs. It's surviving the aggro that's the real trick. Sure, am under-geared first lifer still can manage some Shiradi procs, but it's going just so much less impressive if he is turned into a soulstone instantly after firing but one chain missile.

[taurean430]

The thread is so long because no consensus exists. So people end up arguing various positions. I am surprised you fail to comprehend this as it is a fairly simple principle to understand. It does explain however why DC casting goes over your head.

Epic elite have been solo'ed by various builds running all kinds of Destinies, from Shiradi to Draconic Incarnations, Legendary Dreadnaughts, Grandmaster of Flowers and even Fury of the Wild. Don't believe me? Follow your own advice and check the forums. There is no shortage of builds and EE accomplishment posts not involving Shiradi. So, what? Shiradi's are capable of achieve what numerous other EDs can too?

DC casting has taken a bit of a hit with the last updates, but nothing that could be fixed with better (new) gear in the future (or a revamp of the Magister ED). Meanwhile Evoker AM running Shiradi have become quite powerful, but hardly are the only potent build. I am still at a loss what nerfing Shiradi is supposed to accomplish except again limiting the amount of epic viable builds?

Nerf Shiradi and people are just going to switch back to Draconic Incarnations to faceroll EE and those cannot manage on a DI Sorcerer won't manage on a Shiradi either. Both are capable of delivering significant arcane dps, but damaging (and killing) mobs is only half of it. Every monkey can hurt EE mobs. It's surviving the aggro that's the real trick. Sure, am under-geared first lifer still can manage some Shiradi procs, but it's going just so much less impressive if he is turned into a soulstone instantly after firing but one chain missile.

Something that occurs to me in terms of reasoning of Shiradi being so popular atm:

1. Do Shiradi procs offer significantly more no save results as opposed to Draconic Incarnation/Magister?

2. Are the margins between save and no save unfairly biased by comparison?

3. If one ends up spending significantly more sp for a result that may or may not work (saves inflation unilateraly), is this better or or worse than casting a level one/level 3/past life clicky and seeing large damage numbers?

4. Can this be done more frequently than say adrenaline uses/master's blitz/turn of the tide/etc?

To me the answer is obvious. However I would not be in favor of nerfing Shiradi, as I think it's done quite a bit for ranged viability in end game content. Reading the descriptions found within the destiny it seems obvious to me as well that it was indeed intended to be compatible with ranged spell casting. And as such should remain as a source of flavor and variety to builds in the game.

My concern is the speculated further increase in saves coming with Epic Gianthold. As my primary caster is a crowd controlling necro with multiple past lives; further increases in saves without means to reach them save heavy sp usage every encounter is unreasonable by comparison. Most I've spoken with in game regarding this speculation are already in Shiradi Destiny and questioning me as to why I bother with anything else.

I've just only recapped Half and am now gear grinding to catch up with what I've missed doing these tr's. However in EE High Road quests, I have found personally that simply using hypno/symbols/occasional curse before using controlling spells to work well. However, using death spells (Circle/Wail/PK/Trap) are largely ineffective on the mobs I've encountered. Now this is something I can address with yet more grinding. Yet it seems to me that when I run in group with a first lifer with this destiny there is a definite imbalance. For example, checking the killcount in a recent EE High Road run I had a whopping 8 kills. The first lifer had 39. If a first life Wizard with Eveningstar gear and random loot gen sticks can accomplish much more vs trash than a 10 life multi tr I'm going to ask myself questions about my toon's viability.

In the recent past we have seen changes to Wail, an increase in vulnerability due to poison/disease, now the raising of saves to levels that require multiple debuffs in order to function as a specialist. My take on this so far is that if the speculation is accurate- then either the saves need to be adjusted to more reasonable levels, or the destiny/gear needs to be adjusted to allow one to reach these levels. My observations so far as it stands have me spending heavy sp each encounter. Not terribly different than old style epics where the very same character was trapped in a mass hold hagebot role.

Should it not be adjusted I can easily drop extend, drop any controlling and debuffing spells, exchange multiple feats, and go Shiradi via metagaming. I would however prefer to keep my character as I have intended to build him. Having fun playing is what I will do regardless.

[MrWizard]

are there not weapons and items that can debuff enemies...like lowering spell resistance and such?
Would a couple melee swing some stacking weapon effects lower the dc to make it much easier for the caster. That would be teamwork.

ooops...forgot.... never going to happen....lol

[WruntJunior]

are there not weapons and items that can debuff enemies...like lowering spell resistance and such?
Would a couple melee swing some stacking weapon effects lower the dc to make it much easier for the caster. That would be teamwork.

ooops...forgot.... never going to happen....lol

In all honesty, in EE, they recover stat damage WAY too fast for that to work from what I remember...either way, it's more efficient generally in EE for them to just swing DPS weapons.

[AtomicMew]

Epic elite have been solo'ed by various builds running all kinds of Destinies, from Shiradi to Draconic Incarnations, Legendary Dreadnaughts, Grandmaster of Flowers and even Fury of the Wild.
That's interesting that you didn't list magister, the quintessential DC caster destiny. The point you've just supported is not the one you think.

[budalic]

That's interesting that you didn't list magister, the quintessential DC caster destiny. The point you've just supported is not the one you think.

Actually, there have been magister solos. If I recall correctely, first OOB solo was magister.

And I know a magister necro wizard who claims soloing of EE quests can actually be easier because of dungeon scaling for him. He's a completionist, though.

Also, regarding evoker fvs; exalted angel evoker fvs with energy burst (fire) twisted in is probably best nuker in current metagame thanks to Divine Wrath.

I think problem aren't the classes, currently, it's destinies. Best builds are ones that exploit epic destiny mechanics; while their class abilities come in second place. Shiradi casters, LD or FotW divines/artificers, GMoF instakillers (well, that got nerfed), Energy burst twisting.

Magister is probably only destiny that is effective and doesn't rely on ED abilities, but it's good on only one class; and as saves go higher, it will slowly become obsolete too...

[WruntJunior]

Actually, there have been magister solos. If I recall correctely, first OOB solo was magister.

And I know a magister necro wizard who claims soloing of EE quests can actually be easier because of dungeon scaling for him. He's a completionist, though.

Also, regarding evoker fvs; exalted angel evoker fvs with energy burst (fire) twisted in is probably best nuker in current metagame thanks to Divine Wrath.

I think problem aren't the classes, currently, it's destinies. Best builds are ones that exploit epic destiny mechanics; while their class abilities come in second place. Shiradi casters, LD or FotW divines/artificers, GMoF instakillers (well, that got nerfed), Energy burst twisting.

Magister is probably only destiny that is effective and doesn't rely on ED abilities, but it's good on only one class; and as saves go higher, it will slowly become obsolete too...

Small note, first EE OoB of which I'm aware was a FvS in US.

[budalic]

Small note, first EE OoB of which I'm aware was a FvS in US.

I was thinking about this one:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4648778&postcount=14

Wasn't following forums at the time, so not sure if anything didn't slip past (I presume you are thinking about this one: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=390667)

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

hm... you want the saves on the mobs 5 down...

so a wizard should be able to:
-cc groups of mobs
-hold + eg. energy burst for more aoe dps than a sorc
-insta kill
-self heal

in ee without even drinking pots?

yeah i feel your pain, lol :D

with all that power, i think it's only fair there is a downside. it is after all a jack of all trades.

and plz enough about shiradi. if it's op, there is no need for you to be op also. besides, we all know you have had your op time.

[EvilI]

hm... you want the saves on the mobs 5 down...

so a wizard should be able to:
-cc groups of mobs


Yes.



-hold + eg. energy burst for more aoe dps than a sorc


Unless the sorc has other things he can do better, then Yes.



-insta kill


Yes.



-self heal


Debatable, but since the most common form of self-healing is worse than that of other comparable classes, Yes.



in ee without even drinking pots?


A well geared an well played wizard, in most cases Yes.