Post U14 thrower builds

[Sydril]

A number of players are revisiting the thrower with the advent of the shiradi champion. *standard thrower disclaimer* We all know throwers are still awful dps but I'd like to explore the topic a bit here with anyone who's interested in the subject.

Class combinations for maximum sustained dps? (Kensai, ranger, etc)
Best gear selections (seeker 10 off hand, frozen tunic)
Throwing dagger vs throwing axe comparison?
Bugs and gameplay issues that should be addressed (archers focus and battle engineer not affecting throwing weapons for example.)

Any useful input and feedback is welcome!

[unbongwah]

Somewhere I've got a drow monk / ftr build who specialized in short swords & shuriken - the best of both gimpy options! :p But I have wondered if it would be at all viable to take advantage of Shuriken Expertise + 10K Stars + Haste Boost IV to max out the fire rate - and thus proc chance for Shiradi abilities - on shuriken. Have a feeling the monkchers would just laugh, but it might make for a fun experiment.

[Jaid314]

Somewhere I've got a drow monk / ftr build who specialized in short swords & shuriken - the best of both gimpy options! :p But I have wondered if it would be at all viable to take advantage of Shuriken Expertise + 10K Stars + Haste Boost IV to max out the fire rate - and thus proc chance for Shiradi abilities - on shuriken. Have a feeling the monkchers would just laugh, but it might make for a fun experiment.

they may not laugh too hard if you really gear it up to ridiculous levels... whirling wrists is a +60% attack speed bonus, and shuriken expertise stacks with 10k shards.

at some point, you may actually get to be pretty good :)

[Arkat]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4682848#post4682848

Leveled him up to level 23 so far.

It's definitely sub-par DPS but the Shiradi stuff is fun.

I also find myself switching to a bow for Manyshot as soon as it comes of timer. Snipershot does work with throwing weapons and I HAVE seen some relatively impressive first-number criticals (200+ damage) while using it.



EDIT: If you read further down in the thread I linked to, I do discuss equipment for the build.

[Sydril]

I considered doing something very similar for a long time unbongwah, and i think one could make a decent all around thrower with the shuriken procs and rate of fire on a shiradi.

I'm currently messing around with a helf (rogue dilettante) 18 fighter 1 barbarian 1 druid throwing dagger specced kensai. So far ive been able to run bravery bonuses pretty well up to level 9 with cannith crafted throwers and some random lowbie gear.

I went kensai instead of monk because i thought it would be more useful to have the option for hammers and axes while leveling. Its a fun challenge. I think a rogue heavy thrower might actually be fairly viable if played somewhat like a repeater rogue with lower dps.

I'll be trying to take notes as I go to provide feedback to other people bored or crazy enough to play a dedicated thrower. I've made a few bug reports already. The devs are slowly adding options for throwing builds and with enough hassling they may actually make a fix or two. (I'm looking at you Mr Dev who fixed shuriken expertise in update 12)

[Sydril]

Leveled him up to level 23 so far.


Arkat did you take overwhelming critical? If so can you verify that it works with throwing weapons?

[Jaid314]

oh, and just to say... i definitely do recommend the 10k stars/shuriken approach for one of these builds. the volume of attacks will easily overwhelm the benefits of any named thrower in the game, and honestly, there may be a new best throwing weapon next update anyways ^^

[Arkat]

Arkat did you take overwhelming critical?
No, I did not have that figured in orignally but now that you mention it, I'm going to see if I can work it in. The STR requirement won't be a problem but trying to fit in Cleave and Great Cleave may present a problem.



If so can you verify that it works with throwing weapons?
If I can work it in, I'll let you know the results.

[unbongwah]

I basically had two ideas for a shuriken build. One was STR-based monk 6 / ftr 12 / rgr 2:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Drow Female
(12 Fighter \ 6 Monk \ 2 Ranger)
Hit Points: 301
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 18
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 26
Dexterity 17 22
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 12 16
Charisma 10 12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Zen Archery


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Manyshot


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Thrown Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Thrown Weapons


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Precise Shot


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Thrown Weapons


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Thrown Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Kensei Shuriken Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Shuriken Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Shuriken Specialization I
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Ten Thousand Stars
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Epic feats: Great Cleave & Overwhelming Critical

The other was WIS-based monk 12 / rgr 6 / ftr 2:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Drow Female
(2 Fighter \ 12 Monk \ 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 291
Spell Points: 170
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 18
Will: 18

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 12 14
Dexterity 17 21
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 16 26
Charisma 10 12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Zen Archery


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Precision


Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant


Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Thrown Weapons
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Precise Shot


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Ten Thousand Stars
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise III
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Epic feats: Imp Martial Arts and Vorpal Strikes (if unarmed)

In both cases, the idea is to use a mix of longbows w/Manyshot and shurikens w/10K Stars, with unarmed and/or short swords for backup. If anything, these builds are MADer than most, because you need STR (melee & thrown DPS), DEX (ranged feats & Shuriken Expertise proc chance), WIS (10K Stars proc chance), and CON (duh :p).

[Paxsmickey]

Sigtrent had a Halfling thrower build on his list of builds. I loved the idea, and think It would still have a place with some minor changes.

The idea being a halfling stalwart defender with a shield and a throwing hammer/axe/dagger/etc.

Unfortunately you don't benefit from the melee threat generation and some of the damage reduction.
However, the Defender of Siberys appears to fit better with a shield and a throwing weapon. Add 2 levels of rogue and you can keep evasion with a large shield and light armor.

Not sure how that would fit, but it's a start I guess :/

-PaxsMickey

[Sydril]

Sigtrent had a Halfling thrower build on his list of builds.

Sig is actually a fellow guild member, I'll hit him up for an update and maybe try and finagle a spot on a podcast about throwers.

[Lauf]

I basically had two ideas for a shuriken build. One was STR-based monk 6 / ftr 12 / rgr 2

I wondered about taking level ups in strength. I understand you are trying to qualify for the overwhelming critical feat, but I would argue that taking level ups in dex may be better off, resulting in +6% to throw an extra shuriken instead of a flat +3 damage.
taking the level ups in dex would also allow you to take the combat archery epic feat, increasing your damage by an additional +1[W] when using ranged weapons, which in my opinion would be a better feat than the overwhelming critical if you're considering the use of bows + manyshot.
and last but not least, by making dex your primary stat, you no longer need to pick up brutal throw, and thus this will free up a feat.

note that I am not advocating dumping strength, merely that the level ups may be better spent on dex rather than on strength.

[Falco_Easts]

Some of the upcoming enhancement changes snuck out relating to rogues & daggers using INT for dagger use could be interesting if they work on throwing daggers as well.

[Sydril]

Another consideration to throw out there: Whats the best "occupational thrower?" The best build for a support thrower who is generally throwing as a consistent background activity to healing, crowd controlling, or some other random group focus.

[unbongwah]

I understand you are trying to qualify for the overwhelming critical feat, but I would argue that taking level ups in dex may be better off, resulting in +6% to throw an extra shuriken instead of a flat +3 damage.
Which is better, +6% chance of extra proc or 10% chance of +1 crit multiplier on an x2 weapon? I've no idea.

taking the level ups in dex would also allow you to take the combat archery epic feat, increasing your damage by an additional +1[W] when using ranged weapons, which in my opinion would be a better feat than the overwhelming critical if you're considering the use of bows + manyshot. Combat Archery is currently broken; but with a bit of tweaking, you can squeeze it, either with a couple more pts into DEX or a +4 DEX tome.

And the flip side to that is I didn't dump melee on either build and going STR-based helps that, unless I wanted to pigeon-hole myself into using epic Envenomed Blades.

It's such a gimpy flavor build anyway, we're just coloring in the margins here. :p

and last but not least, by making dex your primary stat, you no longer need to pick up brutal throw, and thus this will free up a feat. I didn't take Brutal Throw on either build.

[Paxsmickey]

I've been working on a throwing theory build, but there are many questions I have.

Race:
Halfling gets up to +3 to hit and Damage w/ thrown weapons, +2 dex, among sneak bonuses, save bonuses, etc.
Drow gets up to +2 to hit and damage w/ shuriken, Shuriken mastery and proficiency, and +2 dex.
Helf can take the rogue dil for bonus sneak damage, +2 to diplomacy, etc.
Dwarf gets +2 con, toughness enhancements, up to +2 to hit and damage with throwing axes
Human bonus feat
Horc +2 str

the other races seem less optimal.

Which weapon should I use?
Shuriken deal 1d2 20/x2
but gain a chance to throw an extra = dex

Throwing daggers 1d4 19-20/x2
higher crit range

Throwing axe 1d6 20/x3
higher hit die and crit multiplier, but only on a 20


Class:
Ranger for feats, sniper, and pure can get +25% ranged attack speed (unless that's still broken)
Rogue for sneak attack damage and haste boost
Fighter for feats, hp, haste, and weapon focus/spec.
Monk for shuriken prof., wind stances, minor sneak damage, and 10k stars.


Any ideas?
-PaxsMickey


EDIT: what does the ranger cap stone stack with? What do the Shiradi attack speed boosts stack with?

[Sydril]

I've been working on a throwing theory build, but there are many questions I have.

Race:
Halfling gets up to +3 to hit and Damage w/ thrown weapons, +2 dex, among sneak bonuses, save bonuses, etc.
Drow gets up to +2 to hit and damage w/ shuriken, Shuriken mastery and proficiency, and +2 dex.
Helf can take the rogue dil for bonus sneak damage, +2 to diplomacy, etc.
Dwarf gets +2 con, toughness enhancements, up to +2 to hit and damage with throwing axes
Human bonus feat
Horc +2 str

the other races seem less optimal.

Which weapon should I use?
Shuriken deal 1d2 20/x2
but gain a chance to throw an extra = dex

Throwing daggers 1d4 19-20/x2
higher crit range

Throwing axe 1d6 20/x3
higher hit die and crit multiplier, but only on a 20


Class:
Ranger for feats, sniper, and pure can get +25% ranged attack speed (unless that's still broken)
Rogue for sneak attack damage and haste boost
Fighter for feats, hp, haste, and weapon focus/spec.
Monk for shuriken prof., wind stances, minor sneak damage, and 10k stars.


Any ideas?
-PaxsMickey


EDIT: what does the ranger cap stone stack with? What do the Shiradi attack speed boosts stack with?

The general consensus is that a shuriken specced shiradi build with shuriken expertise and at least 6 levels of monk for 10k stars is going to be doing the most damage in the end game because of effect procs from the shiradi stances.

For race I would say Helf or Drow for a build like that.