The Eviscerator - A solo/shortman epic elite build

[maddmatt70]

The Eviscerator

The eviscerator is designed to solo or short man epic elite difficulties as a melee. When the eviscerator does not have mob or boss aggro or when a mob is incapacitated it does 13d6 + 25 sneak damage. It also has the Grandmaster epic moment everything is nothing, a stunning fist dc of 62, and rogue haste boost 2, rogue damage boost 2, and human damage boost 3. The eviscerator is an extreme survivalist build with all saves above 55, physical resistance of 72, dodge of 24, healing amp of 2.3, 650 hit points, Armor class of 110, Incorporeality/blur/shadow form, Damage Reduction 15/evil, use magic device of 44, etc. The eviscerator has full rogue skills.

When soloing or much of the time in general the play style is to use stunning fist on a mob then kill it and then while stunning fist is on cooldown the eviscerator will bluff another mob thus getting sneak damage on the second mob and then it repeats the stun and bluff over and over on other mobs. For red names it uses the bluff skill on the red name and then fights and then the bluff skill again on the red name when the bluff skill cooldown is up to increase its dps.

One weakness of this build is when it can not get sneak attack damage it does a lot less dps of course so on undead or similiar mobs it takes much longer to kill.

12 rogue 6 monk 2 paladin
12 rogue for improved sneak attack feat and assassin 2, 6 monk for the monk abilities, unarmed and Ninja spy 1, and 2 paladin for divine grace.

2 fighter past lives 36 pt build (2 fighter lives for +2 stunning fist dc).

Human (note Half-elf could very well be better for this build with the dual bluff cooldowns so if a Half-elf drop the improved critical bludgeon feat).
Earth stance or fire stance if not getting hit much for ki generation
26 = 10 strength +4 str tome +7 enhance+2 insight+2 ship +1 exceptional.
34 = 16 dexterity +2 level up +8 enhance + 3 insight +1 rogue +3 tome +2 ship +1 exceptional -2 dex stance.
32 = 14 constitution +6 con +3 tome + 3 insight +2 ship +1 exceptional +1 human enhance +2 con earth stance
14 = 10 intelligence +3 tome +1 exceptional
38 = 16 wisdom + 8 enhance + 2 insight + 4 level ups +3 tome +2 ship +2 monk +1 exceptional
32 =14 charisma +3 cha tome +8 cha +2 insight cha +1 pally +2 ship +1 exceptional + 1 human enhance

Assassin 2/Ninja Spy 1

13 Feats: Feats(7), Epic Feats (2), Human (1), Monk (3):
Improved critical bludgeon
Toughness
dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Two weapon fighting
Improved Two weapon fighting
Improved sneak attack
Greater Two weapon fighting
Bulwark of Defense
stunning fist
Combat Expertise
weapon finesse

Defense Miss vs. CR 50 mob: 67% Following assumptions: 24% Dodge, Blur, Incorpeality (10%), AC 110 (provides 40% miss).
Total Physical Damage absorbtion mob has DR overcoming while Eviscerator using Grave Wrappings: 76%.
Total Physical Damage absorbtion mob has DR overcoming while Eviscerator using Antipode: 78%
When using Antipode vs. CR 50 mob no DR breaker that has 250 average points of damage per hit on average hits for. 51.7 per swing =(250-15)*.22, but really hits about a 1/3 of the time for 155 points of damage so more damage spikes.


Stun Dc: 62 = 14 wis + 10 stun item enhance + 12 level + 10 base +2 past lives +3 grandmaster +5 exceptional combat mastery +6 legendary tactics.
Hit Points: 666 Total = 20 heroic + 10 gh favor +20 tough feat + 30 toughness enhance + 15 standing with stone + 156 base + 50 epic + 45 shroud item + 275 con +50 artifact.

Saves:
Fortitude: 62 : 11 (con) + 11 (cha) + 7 resist + 2 epic levels + 12 ( base) + 4 insight +4 gh +1 aura of good +6 Perfection of Body +2 good luck +2 Bulwark.
Reflex: 58 : 12 (dex) + 11 (cha) + 7 resist + 2 epic levels + 13 ( base) + 4 insight +4 gh +1 aura of good +2 good luck +2 Bulwark.
Will: 60 : 16 (wis) + 11 (cha) + 7 resist + 2 epic levels + 9 ( base) + 4 insight +4 gh +1 aura of good +2 Perfection of Mind (+2 more enhance, illus, etc) +2 good luck +2 Bulwark.

Note: has improved evasion for level 10 rogue and from grandmaster of flowers still mind and immunity to knockdowns, and can not fail a fortitude save on a 1.
PRR: 33%. 72: 15 conflux, 14 blue slot, 20 from improved combat expertise, 8 mountain stance , 15 standing with stone . PRR 28% using Grave Wrappings
Dodge: 24%: 7% feat, 4% dun robar, +6 monk , +3 Perfect Balance +4 rogue levels.

AC: 110 ac = +20% earth stance (92) +1 pally aura + 6 monk level +7 natural armor + 11 armor bonus + 8 shield + 14 wis + 12 dex + 8 protect +4 insight +6 walking with waves + 4 bulwark +1 alchemical + 10 base .
In corporeality & blur & shadow form
Healing Amp: 2.292 =1.4(human and monk enhance) * 1.3 (Bracer) *1.05 (ship buff)*1.2 (shintao ring).
Grandmaster of flowers:
1 Lily Petals
3 Perfect Balance
3 Dance with Flowers
1 Hail of Blows
1 Orchid Blossoms
3 Walking With Waves
3 Standing With Stone
2 Piercing with Clarity
1Drifting Lotus
3 Perfection of Body
2 Everything is Nothing

Twists: Sense Weakness , Legendary Tactics, Improved Tactics

Gear is from Update 17 which this character does not have of course:
Trinket: planar focus of conflux +3 insight con
Armor: White Dragon Armor +3 dexterity Heavy fort, +8 protect, +8 shield, superior cold resist, blue(+14 physical resistance rating).
Glasses: Intricate Field Optics +8 wisdom , green (+2 good luck), Yellow (+2 wisdom insight).
Helm: Whie Dragon Helm +3 insight dexterity Green(+7 natural armor), Yellow (+2 insight charisma)
Necklace: Shintao +6 constitution concentration +15
Glove: Backstabber Gloves 5 Sneak attack to hit and 8 damage, +3 exceptional sneak attack to hit and 5 damage, +20 bluff, improved deception, Yellow slot (imperial globe +1 exceptional).
Bracer: Greater Convalescent of insight 4.
Cloak: Ghost Walking Cloak +8 charisma, +7 resistance, ghostly, DR15/evil.
Belt: Shroud +45 hp blur
Boot: Halycyn Boots +8 dexterity, +30 striding, (Green +35 hp) , Yellow Slot (+2 strength).
Ring 1: seal of dun robar +7 strength +5 exceptional combat mastery 4% dodge
Ring 2: Shintao +6 wisdom +1 exception strength, 20% healing amp
Antipode
Sets:
1. antipode set 15 physical resistance +4 to hit and damage.
2. White Armor set: +50 artifact hp.
3. Shintao +2 to hit and damage.

Key Skills
Bluff Skill 67 = 23 ranks + 5 epic skills+ 11 charisma + 20 item + 4 greater heroism +2 good luck +2 bluff diplomacy synergy.
Diplomacy Skill 48 = 22 ranks +5 epic skills+11 charisma + 4 greater heroism +2 good luck +2 bluff synergy +2 coin lord favor.
UMD Skill 45 = 23 ranks +5 epic skills + 11 charisma + 4 greater heroism +2 good luck.
Disable Device 63 = 23ranks +5 epic skills + 4 intelligence (item swap)+ 20 item + 4 greater heroism + 2 good luck +5 tools.
Search 63 = 23ranks +5 epic skills + 4 intelligence (item swap)+ 20 item + 4 greater heroism + 2 good luck +5 tools.
Open Lock 68 = 20ranks +5 epic skills + 12 dexterity + 20 item + 4 greater heroism + 2 good luck +5 tools.

[trog_star]

i want one

[boredman]

Can twist Legendary tactics for 62 stunning fist dc too, seems to be a nice build.

[DarkForte]

Have you thought of using unbalancing strike in addition to bluff for getting sneak attacks? I've liked it on my monk so far.
EDIT: Nevermind, forgot that it was strapped to monk level unlike stunning fist.

Also, dump the +1 exc augment and use a globe of imperial blood for better results.

[Bacab]

Looks really solid.

Also, you can use Short Swords (Ninja Spy, and looking at the new epic treasons) Which have Keen on them also.

At first I was disappointed by it lacking 13 ROG for that extra ROG feat, but I think you get more from Divine Grace and Ninja Spy...so I agree with the level split.

I have a first life Monk sitting at like level 10ish, hes been parked for a while...may finish him out and TR him into this or something like this.

One question/remark...
I think Human is a great race choice, but I think Dwarf would be good too for some Dwarven Spell Save bonuses and Tactics reasons. Though you would be missing on on some Skill Points and some Healing amp.

PS...One of my Favorite Builds ever was the "Axesinger" that you made. So to the un-initiated...MadMatt makes some nice builds and I can vouch for how "fun" the builds are.

[lame_name]

Also, dump the +1 exc augment and use a globe of imperial blood for better results.

I'm curious, what does a globe of imperial blood add? As far as i know it only adds +2 to each stat (enhancement bonus, pretty much useless) and 50 SP?

[Emizand]

PS...One of my Favorite Builds ever was the "Axesinger" that you made. So to the un-initiated...MadMatt makes some nice builds and I can vouch for how "fun" the builds are.

axesinger was Thanimal. Is Mat Thanimal?

[Asmodeus451]

ok, i can see taking Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack for more Dodge%, but why take Whirlwind?

its been proven to actually be a LOSS of DPS, especially to unarmed combat toons, as the animation takes so long (opportunity cost of losing attacks due to animation time)

i would suggest taking Precision. AC has very little impact on EE (my 121 AC Pally can vouch for that), so CE wont do you much good in there, and you've already stated that this build relies on SA damage, so 25% fortification reduction is a BIG deal.

EDIT: or, you could drop Whirlwind entirely, Swap CE for Precision, and go Helf

[karl_k0ch]

I don't see the necessity of weapon finesse since your Str seems to be higher than your Dex. Is there another reason to take it?

The Paladin splash is just for the Saves, right? How hard would it hit you to lose +5 to all saves?

Going 13 Rogue/6 Monk/1 Fighter on a half-elf with paladin dilly would offer +1d6 SA damage, one rogue feat, and +1 Stunning DCs, at the cost of -5 saves and a feat (as Stunning Blow needs to be taken for the enhancement).
Keep in mind that post U17 the EiN DC is going to be 10+Wis+Charlevel.


AC has very little impact on EE (my 121 AC Pally can vouch for that), so CE wont do you much good in there, and you've already stated that this build relies on SA damage, so 25% fortification reduction is a BIG deal.

The neat trick in this build is getting 20 PRR by twisting Improved Combat Expertise.

[DarkForte]

I'm curious, what does a globe of imperial blood add? As far as i know it only adds +2 to each stat (enhancement bonus, pretty much useless) and 50 SP?
I mean its epic version (Globe of True Imperial Blood), which is a colourless augment that gives +1 exc to all stats.

A few more comments on the gear choices:
- I don't see the point behind white dragon robes. Spider caparison would fit you better IMO, since the shield bonus is minor with the current ac system, adding to that, your build doesn't have either enhanced ki or reinforced fists. Adding that would allow you to keep earth stance even when you need to build up ki.
- 61 reflex save seems a bit overkill. Don't think I've ever had trouble due to that on EEs with my PM's 54. I'd prefer legendary tactics to reach 62 stunning fist: 56 will fail more than I'd like, especially since you cannot debuff with improved sunder.

[thegreatneil]

Drop unearthly reactions for legendary tactics, your stun fist isnt high enough.

[Tid12]

How are you getting Shadow form while being in GMoF?

Also, I'd drop Weapon Finesse.

[aradelothion]

How are you getting Shadow form while being in GMoF?


Shadow Fade from Ninja Spy 1

[Tid12]

Shadow Fade from Ninja Spy 1

Meh, I was thinking about the one in the Shadowdancer destiny. Thanks.

[LafoMamone]

1. Your dodge calculations are incorrect. You forgot to add the passive component of Uncanny Dodge, giving you an extra 4% dodge at level 12 rogue.

2. You mention incorporeality, shadow form and blur. Shadow form and GMoF are mutually exclusive.

3. I see no point in pursuing whirlwind attack on this build. It is a significant loss of feats and dps.

4. As someone already pointed out, SF DC of 56 is unreliable in EEs. Either pick up Improved Sunder or drop Unearthly Reactions for Legendary Tactics.

5. White Dragon Armor for what? Shield bonus to AC? In EE, your AC won't be high enough to matter.

6. Ki generation suffers quite a bit.



When soloing or much of the time in general the play style is to use stunning fist on a mob then kill it and then while stunning fist is on cooldown the eviscerator will bluff another mob thus getting sneak damage on the second mob and then it repeats the stun and bluff over and over on other mobs. For red names it uses the bluff skill on the red name and then fights and then the bluff skill again on the red name when the bluff skill cooldown is up to increase its dps.

Lolwut? I have no idea what's going on here. Do you intend to pull them one-by-one?

EDIT: I also noticed that you have to keep Antipode on to get your planar set bonus and PRR, but doing so is another thing that limits your dps.

[maddmatt70]

1. Your dodge calculations are incorrect. You forgot to add the passive component of Uncanny Dodge, giving you an extra 4% dodge at level 12 rogue.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing which means my dodge is plenty. The build is still under construction. I can drop unearthly reactions and pick up legendary tactics thus solving this issue.



2. You mention incorporeality, shadow form and blur. Shadow form and GMoF are mutually exclusive.

Ninja Spy 1 shadow form doesn't work with grandmaster of flowers?



3. I see no point in pursuing whirlwind attack on this build. It is a significant loss of feats and dps.

I would kind of agree with you normally, but whirlwind works strangely currently with unarmed. Try it out. In some situations this build would want aggro on mobs just to alleviate the pressure on other party members which whirlwind does so this feat has that added benefit.



4. As someone already pointed out, SF DC of 56 is unreliable in EEs. Either pick up Improved Sunder or drop Unearthly Reactions for Legendary Tactics.

It is actually fairly reliable, but not automatic thus the likely the build will swap out unearthly reactions for Legendary Tactis as suggested. Sunder requires strength to make happen which makes it nigh impossible for a build like this.


5. White Dragon Armor for what? Shield bonus to AC? In EE, your AC won't be high enough to matter.

You are incorrect 100 ac will result in 20% misses by nearly all mobs on ee thus making ac of 100 or more worthwhile in my opinon. The armor is also nice because of the blue slot and the artifact +50 hit point bonus. This build can also swap out the armor for more offensive gear like the blackdragon armor (20% piercing).


6. Ki generation suffers quite a bit.

Yes although Grandmaster of flowers helps ki generation quite a bit, this build might have to spend sometime in fire stance.



Lolwut? I have no idea what's going on here. Do you intend to pull them one-by-one?

I either intend to run by mobs and Everything is nothing a mob cluster or perform some general stealth and move by mobs, or to stun fist one mob and bluff another as I move through the dungeon. I have been doing this alot as I level up stun fist kill, bluff kill, stun fist kill, bluff kill and it works and you can kill the mobs fairly fast. This character is level 13 and still in development.

Bluff is a tremendous skill what it does is stopped the mob or boss from attacking and you also get to do sneak attack dps on the mob/boss - it does have a slightly slow activation time. I have killed bosses on epic elite just using bluff skill with my current level 25 rogue. It is more difficult and time consuming with my current rogue because he has to back off when bluff expires, but this rogue will be able to continue fighting.


EDIT: I also noticed that you have to keep Antipode on to get your planar set bonus and PRR, but doing so is another thing that limits your dps.

The antipode is really good dps espcially with the comm heroic upgrades. The new wraps are interesting in update 17, but no stunning +10.

[boredman]

Keep in mind that post U17 the EiN DC is going to be 10+Wis+Charlevel.


Ouch, seems thats a big change, guess 44+ wisdom at least will be needed for some use of Ein on EE trash. (but for orange named probably will need 56+ wis, making only pure wis characters reliable for Ein use i guess)

[maddmatt70]

I don't see the necessity of weapon finesse since your Str seems to be higher than your Dex. Is there another reason to take it?

The Paladin splash is just for the Saves, right? How hard would it hit you to lose +5 to all saves?

Going 13 Rogue/6 Monk/1 Fighter on a half-elf with paladin dilly would offer +1d6 SA damage, one rogue feat, and +1 Stunning DCs, at the cost of -5 saves and a feat (as Stunning Blow needs to be taken for the enhancement).
Keep in mind that post U17 the EiN DC is going to be 10+Wis+Charlevel.



The neat trick in this build is getting 20 PRR by twisting Improved Combat Expertise.

I was not aware of the EIN change, this build is going to be more on the cusp with ein then with 10+14+25=49 DC on this build so at least can get a % of mobs, but clearly not all. Having saves from divine grace this high is tremendous and I would say a requirement for a solo/shortman build where there is high dc enemy spellcasters in a quest. I would actually say if someone went with the pally dill it would not be worthwhile from that standpoint unless they added better feats that you could take with the fighter levels. The dexterity is higher then the strength by 8 or 4 modifier, but weapon finesse is a slightly debatable feat, but probably still a good idea.

[maddmatt70]

I mean its epic version (Globe of True Imperial Blood), which is a colourless augment that gives +1 exc to all stats.

A few more comments on the gear choices:
- I don't see the point behind white dragon robes. Spider caparison would fit you better IMO, since the shield bonus is minor with the current ac system, adding to that, your build doesn't have either enhanced ki or reinforced fists. Adding that would allow you to keep earth stance even when you need to build up ki.


Antipode has reinforced fists. Ki generation is a concern for sure.

[karl_k0ch]

The dexterity is higher then the strength by 8 or 4 modifier, but weapon finesse is a slightly debatable feat, but probably still a good idea.

Oh, I see where my misconception came from: The OP lists the stats as WIS-DEX-CON-INT-STR-CHA, where the standard character sheet (and many other builds) uses STR-DEX-CON-INT-WIS-CHA.

[LafoMamone]

Ninja Spy 1 shadow form doesn't work with grandmaster of flowers?

That's Shadow Fade, not Shadow Form. I thought that this is what you meant when you mentioned Incorporeality.

FYI, Shadow fade will not stack with other sources of incorporeality.



I would kind of agree with you normally, but whirlwind works strangely currently with unarmed. Try it out. In some situations this build would want aggro on mobs just to alleviate the pressure on other party members which whirlwind does so this feat has that added benefit.

The other party members will most likely be dead before you manage to pull aggro using Whirlwind attack. Intimidate works much better, if you really want to save lives.


It is actually fairly reliable, but not automatic thus the likely the build will swap out unearthly reactions for Legendary Tactis as suggested. Sunder requires strength to make happen which makes it nigh impossible for a build like this.

Improved Sunder applies a -3 to fort saves to your enemy, whether they make the save or not.

The STR mod is for the AC and fort debuff.


Bluff is a tremendous skill what it does is stopped the mob or boss from attacking and you also get to do sneak attack dps on the mob/boss - it does have a slightly slow activation time. I have killed bosses on epic elite just using bluff skill with my current level 25 rogue. It is more difficult and time consuming with my current rogue because he has to back off when bluff expires, but this rogue will be able to continue fighting.

I have used the bluff skill extensively on my rogue, and I don't like depending on it. Not because I have a problem with landing it, but the slow activation time and short duration make it impossible to get optimal use out of haste boosts, human versatility, and various clickies.

If I were you, I would dump Dun'robar for Avithoul. Exceptional sneak attack is great, and improved deception procs often and works on red nameds.


The antipode is really good dps espcially with the comm heroic upgrades. The new wraps are interesting in update 17, but no stunning +10.

In my opinion, level drain is king in EE. The ability to shave off tens of thousands of HP from a mob is certainly better than anything that Antipode may provide (including the doublestrike bonus). I think you could have much better results with Grave Wrappings. Ivy Wraps 24 and Alchemical wraps would also be very good dps, as well as lootgen wraps with a very good prefix and suffix (Obscenity FTW).

[boredman]

But even without much Ein use i think this build is capable of many things on EE. I dont know how Whirlwind works but precision could be an alternative to that feat i think, useful against fortified enemies that are one of the few weakness of this build i think. (About wisdom, it could be posible to raise it a bit more with maybe some little cha drop and destiny enhancements invest, like for example to reach 44 wis for also some more drifting lotus use?)

[maddmatt70]

The other party members will most likely be dead before you manage to pull aggro using Whirlwind attack. Intimidate works much better, if you really want to save lives.


This eviscerator build can not get intimidate to reliable levels and yes I have three other characters that can have a very high intimidate skill so yes I am aware of what it can do. Whirlwind procs multiple times with unarmed at the moment which will change I am sure.



Improved Sunder applies a -3 to fort saves to your enemy, whether they make the save or not.
The STR mod is for the AC and fort debuff.

Seems like a waste of an action to be honest. If this were a strength based build improved sunder would be a nice feat.



I have used the bluff skill extensively on my rogue, and I don't like depending on it. Not because I have a problem with landing it, but the slow activation time and short duration make it impossible to get optimal use out of haste boosts, human versatility, and various clickies.

If I were you, I would dump Dun'robar for Avithoul. Exceptional sneak attack is great, and improved deception procs often and works on red nameds.

The eviscerator has the backstabber gloves which have improved deception on them. I want bluff and improved deception. With improved deception there is a visual cue so you can then wait until the cue is up and do a bluff so you get more prolonged sneak attack damage. Bluff is a funky skill, but very powerful as it helps both defense and offense. I can literally run through a dungeon stun fist, kill, bluff, kill, stun fist, kill, bluff, kill at a very fast rate. With improve deception I can save a bluff or stun here or there.



In my opinion, level drain is king in EE. The ability to shave off tens of thousands of HP from a mob is certainly better than anything that Antipode may provide (including the doublestrike bonus). I think you could have much better results with Grave Wrappings. Ivy Wraps 24 and Alchemical wraps would also be very good dps, as well as lootgen wraps with a very good prefix and suffix (Obscenity FTW).
This will definitely be taken into consideration for the mobs. Thanks for the feedback.

[xTethx]

Id prolly consider keeping the unearthly reactions, most stuff in egh requires above a 58 reflex save for ee and even higher in the raid. Then again tho you do have improved evasion, so i guess you'll have to play around with it.

[DarkForte]

Antipode has reinforced fists. Ki generation is a concern for sure.

Except grave wrappings' dps blows antipode's out of the water for EE trash, even when upgraded and with the set bonus. Level drain procs are insane, especially on named trash.



It is actually fairly reliable, but not automatic thus the likely the build will swap out unearthly reactions for Legendary Tactics as suggested. Sunder requires strength to make happen which makes it nigh impossible for a build like this.

You'd do better by having both. Improved sunder gives a -3 fort save penalty whether the target saves or not for ~15 seconds. It's a quicker animation for unarmed (you don't end up swinging around all the way), and the cooldown means that you'll get to use it once per ~2 stunning fists. Unless you're killing every mob after a single stun (which isn't going to happen on EE), that is not really a problem, since the fort penalty persists for over double the cooldown of stunning fist, hence, you can use it two times, sunder again, stun two times...



You are incorrect 100 ac will result in 20% misses by nearly all mobs on ee thus making ac of 100 or more worthwhile in my opinon. The armor is also nice because of the blue slot and the artifact +50 hit point bonus. This build can also swap out the armor for more offensive gear like the blackdragon armor (20% piercing).

Do you have a source for that? I'd be very happy to see some approximate figures for the to-hit on ee mobs.

[maddmatt70]

Do you have a source for that? I'd be very happy to see some approximate figures for the to-hit on ee mobs.

I do not have a source for that precisely although Zerkul claims that 100ish will make an impact and from what I can tell this is true. On my 130 ac S&B build I get missed a fair amount, but on my fighter who has about 80 ac I do not get missed. Looking at the old scales the devs posted when the MOTU came out the 100 ac number fits. It may not be 20% it maybe 15% or etc., but my gut says 100 ac+ is worth it and the cost to do so is not too high really as the +50 hit points and blue slot are beneficial. The black armor is also very good - I plan to get that on my other rogue.

[JOTMON]

ok, i can see taking Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack for more Dodge%, but why take Whirlwind?

its been proven to actually be a LOSS of DPS, especially to unarmed combat toons, as the animation takes so long (opportunity cost of losing attacks due to animation time)

i would suggest taking Precision. AC has very little impact on EE (my 121 AC Pally can vouch for that), so CE wont do you much good in there, and you've already stated that this build relies on SA damage, so 25% fortification reduction is a BIG deal.

EDIT: or, you could drop Whirlwind entirely, Swap CE for Precision, and go Helf

Whirlwind works just fine for unarmed Monks, The broken animation only applies to weapons.

Precision is very nice, but handwraps are only 2x crit.

[SealedInSong]

Healing amp of 2.2 or 2.3 though? Minor nitpick.


The Eviscerator
(SNIP...) 2.2 healing amp, physical resistance of 72, dodge of 25, healing amp of 2.3, (...SNIP...)

All in all looks solid and fun. I second the legendary tactics twist.

Whirlwind Attack in my experience does not have the delay in unarmed--so you are correct in this.

@Jotmon, for a build that relies heavily on sneak attack, Precision is a very smart if not essential investment. He even said he has problems with uncrittable mobs, so... heaven-sent solution.

Also, @Endgame guildies pushing for level drain--it's totally true that level drain does more DPS (and sets up for stuns, instakills, and all that goodness) than anything Antipode can offer. To me, Antipode is for red or purple names or for when you need to run past trash and could use the extra DR.

In all other cases, level draining wraps of any kind (Obscenity, Amaunator, Grave) are ideal.

[maddmatt70]

Healing amp of 2.2 or 2.3 though? Minor nitpick.


Its 2.3 will have to make sure that is consistant,



All in all looks solid and fun. I second the legendary tactics twist.

You all might be right on this, but it comes down to saves and a little bit of dodge vs. stun dc. I might be able to tweak the destiny as well to pick up the reflex in the destiny or I might get some more tomes which allow for some tweaking a bit so this is still a question in flux I think.



Whirlwind Attack in my experience does not have the delay in unarmed--so you are correct in this.

@Jotmon, for a build that relies heavily on sneak attack, Precision is a very smart if not essential investment. He even said he has problems with uncrittable mobs, so... heaven-sent solution.

It kind of is Whirlwind vs. Precision or other feats as whirlwind is the last feat taken basicallly. The problem with precision is you have to unequip combat expretise which means losing alot of physical resistance with the improved combat expertise twist and a little bit of ac as well so that is the biggest drawback.



Also, @Endgame guildies pushing for level drain--it's totally true that level drain does more DPS (and sets up for stuns, instakills, and all that goodness) than anything Antipode can offer. To me, Antipode is for red or purple names or for when you need to run past trash and could use the extra DR.

In all other cases, level draining wraps of any kind (Obscenity, Amaunator, Grave) are ideal.

Definite something to play around with and likely going to be Grave/obscenity on alot of trash and Antipode on reds/purple/some trash.

[jakeelala]

In my opinion, level drain is king in EE. The ability to shave off tens of thousands of HP from a mob is certainly better than anything that Antipode may provide (including the doublestrike bonus). I think you could have much better results with Grave Wrappings. Ivy Wraps 24 and Alchemical wraps would also be very good dps, as well as lootgen wraps with a very good prefix and suffix (Obscenity FTW).

Do you have any Level Drain weapons? I have an obscenity heavy repeater on my arty, and Cormyrian Falchion on my Battle Cleric (who runs around with 54 str and in Fury and crits like mad with adrenaline and IC:SLash).

From literally hours of playing both characters AND my FvS/Monk with grave wrappings I can tell you with great confidence there's a big difference.

Obscenity and Cormyrian effect are the same: On Crit CHANCE to drain levels.
Grave Wrappings is on Vorpal Drain level. Well I'm here to tell you that the chance to drain a level on Obscenity/Corm sucks. I would say it's between 20-33% on crit chance. That may seem great on a falchion, but .2(20% chance)*.25(crit range of falchion with IC:Slash)=the exact same as grave wrappings (5%).

How about my Obscenity Hvy Repeater? .2*.2=4% chance. Worse than grave wrappings.

If the chance is more like 33% then:
Falchion .33*.25= 8.25% a little better than grave wrappings but not really by much.

My Repeater? .2*.33 = 6.6% chance.

What's my point? Level drain really isn't that great for most characters unless they're level drain item does not significantly reduce their DPS vs. a differnt weapon they could be swinging. For my THF character, swinging Breach or Cleaver is a lot more DPS than the falchion, but mini-bosses I will whip it out. In the case of the grave wrappings, the DPS isn't that stellar, especially on a low str toon, high #/attack TWF monk, as it doesn't have a lot of add damage.

Anyway, I always thought level drain seemed like it was a no brainer, but then I actually got some level drain items. They really nerfed it pretty good. For a monk attacking a bazillion times a second though in EE it's probably not a bad call. But even on a falchion it just ain't that great. My obscenity repeater doesn't get nearly as much use as it should. Although I just thought about whirlwind and you should probably try it with grave wrappings :)

[Tallyn]

Hey MaddMatt, just wanted to see how this build has been holding up thus far in EE Gianthold thus far.

[maddmatt70]

Hey MaddMatt, just wanted to see how this build has been holding up thus far in EE Gianthold thus far.

Actually very very good, although I am still pretty undergeared on the character. I have run the crucible x3, feat of famine, foundation of discord, and cry for help thus far on this character. I have the healing amp listed above, about 58 physical resistance, incorpeality/shadow fade,550-600ish hit points, saves in the low 50s, stun dc of 61, the wraps from citw and etc. What the character needs is perma blur item, more ac gear, more hit point gear, a little bit more dps gear, more save gear, a little bit more for rogue skills, and sense weakness twist.

Overall though I am really excited about this character. The dps has been the biggest surprise. The dps is actually decent and with EIN still being o.k. for the character and the stun dc being so high this character is really not an offensive liability and is very suviveable now even when she is not fully geared.

[Pilgrim1]

it seams a shame to take dodge, mobility, spring attack and not take tempest 1. This is a mental variant of a toon i currently have, and as its a stunning fist rogue i thought i would put it up for you to pick apart:

Half elf pally del.

13 rogue
6 ranger
1 monk

36 build points:
13 str
16 dex
14 con
8 int
16 wis
13 chr

7 half +1 monk + 2 epic = 10
half elf pally thingy
Dodge
mobility
spring attack
stunning fist
GTWF
toughness
improved sneak attack

with 3 more feets...

lose: some saves, 1d6 SA, and shadow fade, 4 dodge, a bit of ac, some base weapon dmg, and tear 2 stances.
gain: 2 favored enemies, opportunist, ranger sprint, rams might, some skill points, MANYSHOT, and some feets, tempest 1.

The more i think about it the more i lean to a ranger splash on my current 18rogue/1monk/1ranger (manyshot/stunning fist).

anyways, something to consider. I feel that these deep splashed rogues are truly the best way to play a monk or rogue.

[maddmatt70]

it seams a shame to take dodge, mobility, spring attack and not take tempest 1. This is a mental variant of a toon i currently have, and as its a stunning fist rogue i thought i would put it up for you to pick apart:

Half elf pally del.

13 rogue
6 ranger
1 monk

36 build points:
13 str
16 dex
14 con
8 int
16 wis
13 chr

7 half +1 monk + 2 epic = 10
half elf pally thingy
Dodge
mobility
spring attack
stunning fist
GTWF
toughness
improved sneak attack

with 3 more feets...

lose: some saves, 1d6 SA, and shadow fade, 4 dodge, a bit of ac, some base weapon dmg, and tear 2 stances.
gain: 2 favored enemies, opportunist, ranger sprint, rams might, some skill points, MANYSHOT, and some feets, tempest 1.

The more i think about it the more i lean to a ranger splash on my current 18rogue/1monk/1ranger (manyshot/stunning fist).

anyways, something to consider. I feel that these deep splashed rogues are truly the best way to play a monk or rogue.

Yes manyshot is nice which honestly is the main benefit of your argument here, but the save advantage, physical resistance from earth 2, and the ac are just far too good to pass up. This character can hit the thresholds where it fails no saves which is awesome. My eventual plan is I am hoping that Turbine adds some more regeneration capabilities (like jerky, ham, e.g. of this) so I can hit a total equivalent defense of 90%+ with invulnerable saves - right now with all gear this build hits a total equivalent defense 80%+ although with displacement clickies I figure mid 80s is attainable with those clickies.