Endgame DCs for Archmage

[4tonmantis]

I was over on test server and leveled my TR'd Wizard to 25 and capped all his EDs. With a 36 int and a few decent buffs he's sitting at a 42 DC.
This is what he had endgame before TRing at Heroic 20.
Granted he only has a +2 tome and Int 6 gear, but he is ED capped and at 25 and sporting an Enchantment Mastery item as well as Archmage Enchanter.

The problem is, a +5 tome and exceptional gear, plus a +8 Int item and +3 ench master item would add 7 to this DC as well as a ship buff I missed on test server bringing him to a 50 DC for endgame with the best gear available.

I am trying to get a sense for whether or not this DC is effective or not on EE. On EN and EH 42 is not exactly reliable and in higher level content it is almost completely ineffective (Lords of Dust EH approx 50% success from testing). If it's not usable for EE I am going to have to convert him into something else and explore other build ideas. I do enjoy leveling an enchanter, but I can't see investing that much time into something that won't be able to contribute in a significant way to endgame.

[voodoogroves]

Thee things.

One, you need the higher DC for EE ... and yes once you have it EN and EH may seem much much easier.

Second requiring you to have the +8 item, boat, etc. to get there isn't a horrible thing. It means you'll need to gear up a bit, but you can absolutely get there. I bought my INT +8 item off the AH and once you're at cap +8 and exceptional +2 items can and do drop in lootgen, not to mention the various other ways you can get them. Some epic items are easier than others to acquire, etc. You'll need to make choices if you want to have the best possible enchantment DC, and a good 3-5 of those points are reasonably easy to acquire. Yes, they will take some effort, but they aren't particularly hard - just time consuming.

Third, enchant is the easiest school to get by with lower DCs because of the wide range of debuffs lower level enchants provide ... hypno, crushing despair, mind fog .... are you prepping your holds/discos in the harder content?

[LOOON375]

I would say that 50 is the magic number. Obviously if you can get higher it would be beneficial.

Some are looking for no fail on EE drow, and that's not necessarily needed, since there are different methods to CCÃ*ng drow.

[moops]

Are you counting your Destiny INT ? Your INT seems awfully low for maxed destiny.
Without +8 item and Yugo pot, or even proper destiny I sit at 48 or 50 as a PM depending on if I get ship buffs--
so that is +2 from Form that you might not get, but in proper destiny I'm at 54. ( I have except int item and +5 tome)

For me right now it is Spell Pen that gets me in EE as I have not been able to twist it yet..And even when I can I will be TRing again for more.

At 48 and 50 INT my cc works fantastic in EH, but I have a wiz past live and feats and all enhancements, so the spell pen works there.

[4tonmantis]

Are you counting your Destiny INT ? Your INT seems awfully low for maxed destiny.
Without +8 item and Yugo pot, or even proper destiny I sit at 48 or 50 as a PM depending on if I get ship buffs--
so that is +2 from Form that you might not get, but in proper destiny I'm at 54. ( I have except int item and +5 tome)

For me right now it is Spell Pen that gets me in EE as I have not been able to twist it yet..And even when I can I will be TRing again for more.

At 48 and 50 INT my cc works fantastic in EH, but I have a wiz past live and feats and all enhancements, so the spell pen works there.
Interesting response, what is your DC for Enchantment CC?
My ED went into spell pen.. lol so I haven't seen a single blue shield. The ROI for 4DP per DC point PLUS losing out on the actual effects of the currently trained Magister abilities.. it's a tough pill to swallow, though I do have 2 Int from ED.
My Int 36 is with a +2 tome, a +6 item, 2 from ED, and not much else outside of enhancements. No ship buffs or anything. That being said, at a 50 that's 7 more to the DC than I have. If I ate a +5 that would be 1 more to DC, +8 item is 1 more, +2 for ship buffs, up to +3 for exceptional total, giving me 8 more to the DC (50). That was in my first posts' calculations though (roughly) as well as another +1 from a +3 dc item (51). I can spell surge for 5 more and go to56.. but that gear would take up a lot of not only time and resources, but other things like equipment slots and flexibility and I want to know what DC people are hitting to actually see no-fails.

Like I said in my first post, I know the stuff is out there.. and I know I can hit a 50 DC (the DC is more important than your actual int score, however you end up getting to that point...).

He is also a 34 point build, not 36.. and a WF so his initial stats were more limited than, say, an elf or what have you.


To the other replies.. I'm looking for no-fail on most mobs. I don't know what that would be for EE drow or how I would end up achieving it with my current options (even maxing the tome and exceptional and enhancement gear).
I leveled the guy to cap once and CC'd the old style epics before going on Hiatus. 43 was fine for those but the new system is obviously different and there were no Epic Levels. The point of TR'ing him was to open up more possibilities and make it so I wouldn't have to drop Mindfog, have a party member use cursespewing (which update 17 will nerf), etc.
Hearing that 50 is a magic number people are hitting is encouraging but I'd really like to hear what DCs people are having success with in EE from first hand so I don't invest time/energy/resources into a lost cause.

[Humperdink]

It depends on what you consider successful. If you're at an Enchantment DC that lands 70% that still means you have a good chance of affecting 7/10 EE bad guys. On EE, when confronted with 10 bad guys and taking out 6-7 with 1-3 spells, I'd call that a win. But that's just me. The general values of effectiveness on Enchantment DC tend to be in the 50-55 range. Spell penetration is 50-55 as well. If you want to be at no fail I believe it's a 56 or 57. I have a sorcerer that reaches 50-51DC Enchantment with a 38 Spell Penetration. On EH or lower, that spell pen value is fine. On EE against high SR opponents it doesn't work, but then again I go to other strategies like Web, Greater Shout, or outright spell damage. On EE with a 50-51DC I find it works ok if combined with debuffs that affect the will save like Mind Fog, Crushing Despair, Hypnotism, Symbol of Death (negative levels), etc. Speaking with a couple of other sorcerers who solo or low man EE content they were in the 52-53DC range when buffed up. Some end game/serious players consider DC55 Enchantment too low, but I think it's a matter of perspective. I believe they consider catching 9/10 EE bad guys or 10/10 in their CC the only benchmark of success, whereas I consider affecting 6/10 or 7/10 a win.

As a matter of perspective- My bard has a Perform skill of 72 when buffed up. That means it's a 72DC versus will save when I Fascinate or Entrall. In my experience in EE, nothing saves against a DC72 except when bad guys roll a 20.

[Enoach]

I would say that on EE Drow content DCs (which made it to 50ish) was not the problem as much as the Spell Resistance.

However, there is NO SR available CC. So sometimes you just can't force that Square Peg in the Round hole.

Debuffs are Enchantments best friend - You don't care if they succeed such as Hypno, all you care is they apply their save debuff.

[4tonmantis]

It depends on what you consider successful. If you're at an Enchantment DC that lands 70% that still means you have a good chance of affecting 7/10 EE bad guys. On EE, when confronted with 10 bad guys and taking out 6-7 with 1-3 spells, I'd call that a win. But that's just me. The general values of effectiveness on Enchantment DC tend to be in the 50-55 range. Spell penetration is 50-55 as well. If you want to be at no fail I believe it's a 56 or 57. I have a sorcerer that reaches 50-51DC Enchantment with a 38 Spell Penetration. On EH or lower, that spell pen value is fine. On EE against high SR opponents it doesn't work, but then again I go to other strategies like Web, Greater Shout, or outright spell damage. On EE with a 50-51DC I find it works ok if combined with debuffs that affect the will save like Mind Fog, Crushing Despair, Hypnotism, Symbol of Death (negative levels), etc. Speaking with a couple of other sorcerers who solo or low man EE content they were in the 52-53DC range when buffed up. Some end game/serious players consider DC55 Enchantment too low, but I think it's a matter of perspective. I believe they consider catching 9/10 EE bad guys or 10/10 in their CC the only benchmark of success, whereas I consider affecting 6/10 or 7/10 a win.

As a matter of perspective- My bard has a Perform skill of 72 when buffed up. That means it's a 72DC versus will save when I Fascinate or Entrall. In my experience in EE, nothing saves against a DC72 except when bad guys roll a 20.

This is a pretty valuable reply, and offers a lot of perspective.
Web has been a life saver in the past in areas like House C Explorer or Undead heavy zones, and I do fall back on that or Flesh to Stone if I know the mobs' Fort is a little low. In a balanced party 6/10 is more than okay (though some parties do flip out on CC that can't hit everything :/ ) and even most circumstances they mobs will take care of themselves. The problem I found (on test server GH area) is that if the mobs make the save about half the time.. they will also break out about half the time if they have enough time (cr24 epic mobs have tons of hitpoints so this is highly likely). That particular area, if they make the save and more aggro, you find yourself dealing with 15ish ticked off giants and no allies.

On the bard, I was actually considering a 3rd life on my wiz as a bard but was worried the non-performed-base CC would fall short by a large margin compared to Arch CC. It would be nice to see how it stacks up considering Bard is just about the only other reliable endgame CC that is comparable to a Arch-Enchanter.

I've got to calculate the Spell Pen on my guy but I dumped a ton of destiny points into his Spell Pen and I believe I even took Epic Spell Pen.. I don't know that it'll beat the super high stuff but in EH content I haven't seen a blue shield yet. I have not braved EE with him yet simply due to not being anywhere close to reliable in EH.

[mrphlegm]

I have 47 ench on my necro/conj am and it works well enough with a mind fog inside my ottos, if I want to mass hold stuff I throw a unmetad crushing despair first. It's just 20 sp for -7 will which gets pretty much anything besides enemy divines. Will save spells are easy to land compared to fort where 54 necro is pretty bad in high road elites.

Edit: cd is -5 saves, my bad. Btw make good use of your hypno sla, spam it everywhere.