Nerf bravery bonus & first time bonus

[Mastikator]

I think it's time to lower the first time and bravery bonuses, they were scaled up way too high when they were added, this amount of XP isn't necessary.
First time, Normal: 25%, Hard 40%, Elite 55%
Bravery Bonus: Hard 10%, elite 15%
Streak bonus: hard 4%, elite 6% per stack (hard 4-20%, elite 6-30%).

So from a contemporary maximum of (80+20+50) = +150% to (60+15+30) = +105%

The reason is because they yield far too much XP, so much so that anything less is punitive, they need to be scaled back. They also overshadow other bonuses, such as conquest, ransack, flawless, etc.

[lronEnema]

Let me know how much +ve rep you get from this one

[Lonnbeimnech]

before BB there were 2 main criticisms of tring

1. Over leveled, over geared TRs rolfstomping normal content was boring, really boring.
2. It takes such a huge amount of xp on a TR2 to hit cap that it requires this 'grind everything 12NHE' playstyle, which again is boring, really boring.

BB fixed that. It's still worth your time to farm some quests, but it is no longer necessary.

Unfortunatly, it has become the de facto setting for all players regardless of player skill and character power/gear, this is not the fault of BB.

So we now have to hear undergeared firstlifes complain they cant roflstomp elite content solo... There are other dif settings.


And really

this amount of XP isn't necessary.

anything less is punitive
You can't have it both ways. If this amout of xp is not necessary, then how is it punitive to run on hard or norm?

[danzig138]

That would be an excellent suggestion if the XP for quests wasn't already skewed to the low end (far lower than what it should be given the encounters), so no.

/not signed

[bigolbear]

on a first life I agree. bravery bonus is a bad thing for the game.

Given the XP requirements for a TR tho - its needed.

A first lifer can lvl to 20 by playing most quests on normal.

A third lifer can lvl to 20 by playing all quests on elite(first time+ bravery streak+ learning tome), and with a minimal amount of repeats.

The bravery bonus and streaks were added to encourage TR's to play on a dificulty appropriate to them and to mitigate the grind, unfortunately all players now want to have an elite streak.... nice plan gone wrong ;)

There are several solutions.

1. have the streak apply only to TR's (and if a TR is partying with a non TR then the streak is not broken by doing less than elite)

2. get rid of the TR xp issue.

3. get rid of the TR xp issue AND count a TR as having a +1 or +2 ECL (effective character lvl). This is a concept from pen and paper. It would mean a lvl 1 TR would count as a lvl 3 character for quest xp purposes.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Interesting discussion.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Troll Post so /popcorn

If not then....

It MUST be another post by a player wanting to ELF UP the game for others because they are sad/bored/petty/selfish/lonely/feel entitled or whatever.


If you don't like it THEN DON'T use it but stay the OLY ELFING ELF OUTTA MY GAME EXPERIENCE.

[Dandonk]

I'm torn on this issue.

On the one hand, the bonuses are so huge that:

1) Everyone wants to play on elite, whether they are ready for it or not. And get annoyed when the party can't handle it.
2) The XP makes optionals and bonuses such as Conquest and Ransack nearly pointless, so that everything that matters is getting the quest done in as little time as possible.

On the other hand:

A) TR XP, while I still loathe it, is not nearly as bad before. This could be changed by changed TR XP requirements, though.
B) It is more fun to play on higher difficulties - grinding normal gets mindnumbingly boring really fast.
C) It encourages playing of different quests (to a point), since the first time bonus is so huge that (at least some) low-XP quests can be played for XP.

Conclusion? There is none, for me. I don't really know whih side to come down on with this issue.

[redspecter23]

If this change were to occur alongside a flattening of the TR1/TR2 xp curve, then sure. I wouldn't mind losing relative low level xp in order to gain relative high level xp. The suggestion as it stands in the OP is likely as popular Threnal East 3.

[Dendrix]

The XP for the level 18-20 quests should be addressed first.
The XP they give is insultingly small and totally inapropriate.

Should a level 18 quest award more or less XP than a level 12 quest (when both quests take the same time to complete)

[Lonnbeimnech]

3. get rid of the TR xp issue AND count a TR as having a +1 or +2 ECL (effective character lvl). This is a concept from pen and paper. It would mean a lvl 1 TR would count as a lvl 3 character for quest xp purposes.

If that means a lvl 18 can get into epics, then sure.

Otherwise, you would be lvl 16, holding 17, but counted as lvl 18 doing vale on elite... would cause a hole of about 900k to fill... So they would have to run reavers refuge elite, and iq, and DD and maybe even some amrath without even getting their third tier prestige, tod sets etc. And actually, eliminating much of their level appropriate gear reduces their power dramatically.


consider, a first lifer walking into vale for the first time, as a lich with wail of the banshee, he needs 370k to cap.

a level 16 tr holding lvl 17, walking into vale as a wraith with finger of death, he needs 1 million 5 hundred and 14k to cap, and he has to run on elite or he takes a 10% hit for being over level....

[Enoach]

I agree that the "Must Have Elite Streak" mentality has hurt the grouping for everyone.

1. First Life characters that do not have the benefit of the "Best" possible gear for their level and are not ready for the trials of Elite are either stuck soloing with or without a hire or joining a group on elite and risking the possibility that the run will not be fun due to many factors; lack of knowledge, inability to contribute, group of pricks.

2. Multi Life characters getting members in there group and expecting them to know or be able to do stuff because they know or can do stuff on their characters.


However, I disagree that it is the mechanic of the Elite Streak that is at fault. The fault lies with the community and the competition of "my number is bigger than your number" when in reality beyond 5 it has no meaning.

What the bonuses have done is encourage less grind on quests, which for those of us that don't like running the same quest over and over and over ... until we close our eyes and still see it, its a good thing. You can still grind a quest if you want to, but now it is a "Want" not a "Need".

[maximus123123]

/Not signed.
I'm for anything that makes the game less of a grind.
This is going in the other direction.

[Stormraiser]

Add more quests to the 15-20 level ranges or increase the base XP for non Litany, Vale or Sale Asylum quests. Looking at house C and Shavarath quests.

[shadereaper33]

Oh good, another horrendous suggestion. It has been a few hours since I have seen one of these on the forums. Seriously, reducing the amount of xp awarded will only serve to increase the amount of pointless grind in the game, and drive people away. The BB and streak system was added to help alleviate the insane amount of xp needed when compared to the pitifully low amount of xp awarded per quest. There is absolutely nothing in the OP to validate the request to reduce the value of the BB and streak, so until there is something worthwhile posted to support this inane request,

/NOT SIGNED, now or ever.

[Memnir]

No.

[Alternative]

is this a humour thread? lower xp bonus because there's not enough grind?

[Impaqt]

Ya cant just reduce XP for the sake of reducing XP. No good can come from that.

I think Bravery bonus was one of the worst things turbine ever introduced. It discourages Pug's and fuels contempt for folks that are not up to "Standard".

that being said, without it, Double TRing+ is far too painful for me... and many others.. to do...

Drop the Double TR XP Progression so that every TR follows the same scale.

Fix Quests that have Far too little XP for their level/Time.

Address Optional XP so that it makes sens to do optionals in ALL quests. Currently I would guess less than 20% of quests provide reasonable XP for optional objectives.

[Miow]

My take on it is lower the amount of xp needed to level to 20 for a third lifer to less :P

[bhgiant]

Yeah, no.

On a first life, they can be excessive, true, but anything after that just makes DDO more enjoyable.

[Theolin]

I agree I do not like the bravery bonus at all it most definitely discourages joining groups. And I would like to see it go away.

In order to do that though some things need to happen:

I would like to see the XP on TR1 & TR2 dropped to Zero, though I would be ok with 10% & 20% more than a first life rather than what they are.

First time bonus I think should be increased to get more people to run different quests.

I also believe that many of the quests need their XP upped, some a lot, some not so much.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

I could see reducing these bonuses for first lifers as that may actually help the game, but not for TRs. The 18-20 grind on a TR doesn't need to be made worse.

[Mastikator]

Because it wasn't clear, I'm not saying remove the bravery bonus, I'm saying the bravery bonus is too much; nerf it. And nerf the first time bonus.

-


Let me know how much +ve rep you get from this one

+/- 0, thanks for the support though, means more than rep :P

-


[snip]
You can't have it both ways. If this amout of xp is not necessary, then how is it punitive to run on hard or norm?
It isn't necessary for even double-tr characters, there is a nice warm middle ground between the insanity of XP we get now and what we got before BB, I am advocating for that middle ground, not this strawman you've made up.

-


That would be an excellent suggestion if the XP for quests wasn't already skewed to the low end [snip]

And plenty of quests are skewed to the upper end and should also be xp nerfed. But yes, a lot of quests deserve a xp boost, this is a separate issue.

-


I'm torn on this issue.

On the one hand, the bonuses are so huge that:

1) Everyone wants to play on elite, whether they are ready for it or not. And get annoyed when the party can't handle it.
2) The XP makes optionals and bonuses such as Conquest and Ransack nearly pointless, so that everything that matters is getting the quest done in as little time as possible.

[snip]

I'm glad you can see both sides, what I'm advocating for is reducing the size of the bonuses so that hard and normal difficulty on first time are more attractive and the pug-scene becomes more diverse and the penalty for breaking your streak is smaller.
In total, as I showed, it's a difference between +150% to +105%, not including tomes and other bonuses.

TR XP on levels 18 still very painful, the current BB bonuses make it so a TR2 feels like a non-tr on levels 1-15 pre-bb, but it comes at the expense twisted incentives for all non-trs and doesn't do as much as it should were double-TRs feel the most pain- the last few levels before epic. It's a stupid payoff, reduce the BB, increase some upper level quests's xp, maybe reduce (but not take way) TR XP (perhaps from 5%/10% to 4%/8%) and it would be smoother across levels and more diversity in the pug scene.

-


Ya cant just reduce XP for the sake of reducing XP. No good can come from that.

I think Bravery bonus was one of the worst things turbine ever introduced. It discourages Pug's and fuels contempt for folks that are not up to "Standard".

that being said, without it, Double TRing+ is far too painful for me... and many others.. to do...[snip]

One of he worst thing in DDO should stay because you don't like double TR exp penalty?
Lowering, or dropping TR XP is a fine suggestion, but that's not the issue, the issue is that Bravery bonus severely distorts questing incentives and is devastating for the pug scene. If you want to argue in favor of fixing TR XP then go ahead and do so, but don't argue in favor of something even you think is one of the worst things in DDO.

-

Wow that was a long post.
I think I've made all the points I need, if someone doesn't think that bravery bonus isn't destructive to grouping then that's your prerogative, if you want to keep a bad XP mechanism to slightly mitigate another bad XP mechanism then that is also a right you have, even if it's shortsighted and selfish.

[Gkar]

Ya cant just reduce XP for the sake of reducing XP. No good can come from that.

I think Bravery bonus was one of the worst things turbine ever introduced. It discourages Pug's and fuels contempt for folks that are not up to "Standard".

that being said, without it, Double TRing+ is far too painful for me... and many others.. to do...

Drop the Double TR XP Progression so that every TR follows the same scale.

Fix Quests that have Far too little XP for their level/Time.

Address Optional XP so that it makes sens to do optionals in ALL quests. Currently I would guess less than 20% of quests provide reasonable XP for optional objectives.

/thread

[CaptainSpacePony]

I'm been thinking on this for a bit today and agree the bravery streak bonuses are too large because of the the adverse affects on grouping discussed above.

I don't think the 1st time bonus is nearly as much of a problem.

[Jasparion]

Ya cant just reduce XP for the sake of reducing XP. No good can come from that.

I think Bravery bonus was one of the worst things turbine ever introduced. It discourages Pug's and fuels contempt for folks that are not up to "Standard".

BB is especially bad when combined with 1st life VIPs who can open on Elite :)

BB is a great idea in theory, and in practice can be enormously beneficial to well geared/skilled groups made up of multi-TRs. But it can also lead to absolutely awful runs. Of course, as individuals maybe we just need to be better able to spot the bad PuGs and avoid them.

[Singular]

Yeah, sorry, can't agree to this one without changes in how xp is handled downstream - levels 16-20. As everyone is writing here, the xp grind is tiring on a 3rd + life TR.

However, if you want to raise the xp per level from 20-25, I'm all there for you! I don't like running quests without getting xp for leveling...yes, yes, EDs and all that...<sigh>

[fyrst.grok]

I like the bonus. In fact it made playing DDo a lot more fun and I don't mind TR'ing nearly as much now as before.
I probably wouldn't have tr's come to think of it and that would in the end have made me leave the game all together at some point.. Grind just isn't fun.

I like there is a reason to keep doing quests on elite now in stead of the mindnumbing normal repeats. Not having to do nhe to get the favor coin lords, kundarak and silverflame is just a bonus.

There is a need for a xp buff untill the day where we can level a 3rd life tr without the use of tomes, voices, pots, shipbuffs and just doing every quest on normal ONCE.

[Charononus]

Because it wasn't clear, I'm not saying remove the bravery bonus, I'm saying the bravery bonus is too much; nerf it. And nerf the first time bonus.

-



+/- 0, thanks for the support though, means more than rep :P

-


It isn't necessary for even double-tr characters, there is a nice warm middle ground between the insanity of XP we get now and what we got before BB, I am advocating for that middle ground, not this strawman you've made up.

-



And plenty of quests are skewed to the upper end and should also be xp nerfed. But yes, a lot of quests deserve a xp boost, this is a separate issue.

-



I'm glad you can see both sides, what I'm advocating for is reducing the size of the bonuses so that hard and normal difficulty on first time are more attractive and the pug-scene becomes more diverse and the penalty for breaking your streak is smaller.
In total, as I showed, it's a difference between +150% to +105%, not including tomes and other bonuses.

TR XP on levels 18 still very painful, the current BB bonuses make it so a TR2 feels like a non-tr on levels 1-15 pre-bb, but it comes at the expense twisted incentives for all non-trs and doesn't do as much as it should were double-TRs feel the most pain- the last few levels before epic. It's a stupid payoff, reduce the BB, increase some upper level quests's xp, maybe reduce (but not take way) TR XP (perhaps from 5%/10% to 4%/8%) and it would be smoother across levels and more diversity in the pug scene.

-



One of he worst thing in DDO should stay because you don't like double TR exp penalty?
Lowering, or dropping TR XP is a fine suggestion, but that's not the issue, the issue is that Bravery bonus severely distorts questing incentives and is devastating for the pug scene. If you want to argue in favor of fixing TR XP then go ahead and do so, but don't argue in favor of something even you think is one of the worst things in DDO.

-

Wow that was a long post.
I think I've made all the points I need, if someone doesn't think that bravery bonus isn't destructive to grouping then that's your prerogative, if you want to keep a bad XP mechanism to slightly mitigate another bad XP mechanism then that is also a right you have, even if it's shortsighted and selfish.

Here's the problem with your idea, you'd remove "elite, bb, ip" for "nnnnnnnnnnnhe, know it, byoh, ip, no -10%" I know which one I think is worse for the pug scene.