Legenday Dreadnaught on a 16/2/2 THF warchanter

[karl_k0ch]

On a Dwarven, Str-based Axe-wielding 16 bard, 2 rogue, 2 fighter Warchanter, I decided to give Legendary Dreadnaught a try. The Axes used are currently EAGA and Templar's Justice, but I'd love to pick up a Cleaver.

The feats taken are:
WF:Slash
Toughness
PA
Cleave
Great Cleave
IC:Slash
Extend
THF
ITHF
Inspire Excellence
Overwhelming Critical



My tentative plan for LD is:

Extra Action Boost 3
+1 Str (mainly for progressing the tree)
Damage Boost 1
Momentum Swing 3
Improved Power Attack
Critical Damage 3
Lay Waste
Haste Boost 3
Anvil of Thunder (does this make sense?)
Advancing Blows
Devastating Critical
Headmen's Chop.

I'm uncertain about Anvil of Thunder vs. Master's Blitz, as I don't have that many tactical feats to use, and will most likely not have a DPS output comparable to fighters, or barbs, which will make it harder to score the killing blow and actually keep master's blitz running. Thoughts on this?

Another related would be to improve on the tactical feats, swap ITHF for Improved Sunder, and pick up Legendary Tactics instead of the +1 Str. Thoughts on that?

Haste Boost 3. Is it worth it spending 3 destiny points for Haste Boost 3, where 1 enhancement action point could take care of Haste Boost 1?

And finally: Is this actually more DPS than Fatesinger?

[zwiebelring]

I guess a fundus on tactical feats are important as a LD. Though, Cleae and Great Cleave should be enough for your plan. Else, MB is charged by using general trip and sunder(?) command. I would charge MB before entering a quest, if possible, else I think it was best to see it as a gimmick according to party setup and relyon the general dps increase by IPA and crit. enhancers.

I think, you might try Momentum Swing and Lay Waste combination. You have a pretty high chance on perma trip mobs when using those 2 attacks consecutively (each has a chance on resetting the cooldown of the other). Cleave and Great Cleave reset the timers, too. And if I am not mistaken, MS and LW count for charging MB. Cleave, Great Cleave, (normal) Trip and (normal) Sunder charge MB as well.

Else, instead of taking Haste Boost I, take Damage Boost I and build up Haste Boost line from LD. It is worth it. You anyway do not focus heavily on Stunning Blow, so you have those destiny points and instead of using Legendary Tactics (+6 to tactical feat DCs) you can invest in Haste Boosts. Twist Primal Scream and you are good to go.

If FS is more dps than LD might depend on your STR mod. and base dmg. output. LD gives a nice base dmg. increase but when that becomes more dps than proc.s of Reign, for example, I don't know. It appears to me that the EAGa profits more from LD than FS due to the features built for axes.

I never paid attention to those special attacks like Anvil and Volcano Edge, they never seemd worthy for me and thus I can't comment on hem.

[katz]

i am currently running a 16/2/2 in LD. i LOVE IT. my standing joke in guild chat and channel chat has now become "have i mentioned lately how much i love cleave?"

i was originally not impressed by it and just passed thru trying to get to fury... until i (at the recommendation of a friend) reshuffled my feats to allow cleave/great cleave allowing me to pick up momentum swing/lay waste. i went back to LD and capped it when i added in the ability to use momentum swing and lay waste. it was just that much fun


i swing an eAGA with improved power attack, crit damage, devastating critical, headman's chop, momentum swing, lay waste, and master's blitz from the LD tree (and overwhelming crit feat). i do have anvil of thunder in there, and its a nice little 'extra damage' clickie, but really... lovin' the crits.



also.. a halfling using lay waste in the middle of a pack of trolls/ogres and knocking ALL of them down is just really frign LOL. heheheheheh

[BigButter]

I haven't played a 'true' melee before but recently began LR'ing my CHA-based elven SS to a STR-based, SS eGA wielder with feats very similar to yours (dropping the WC pre-req's of course). With that frame of reference, LD was an unbelievable boost in damage output. As to your question about whether to take Anvil or Master's Blitz, I would strongly recommend MB--even if MB is still bugged as per the Wiki description (can anyone confirm the Dodge issue has been fixed and the decrement counter issue has been fixed?) I fit in both Anvil and MB but otherwise your point spread and choices are pretty similar to mine. Anvil is ho-hum and an extra button/timer to keep in mind. I have no problem building up the MB counter just spamming Cleave and Great Cleave (and sorry I can't recall if the Momentum Swing and Lay Waste count as Tactical moves that increase the counter). Remember that just activating MB gives you a 25% dmg boost (if it's working I don't know). I can't speak to using it in parties as I'm farming out other ED's right now but when I was soloing out my LD, I could keep MB running a loooong time.

For instance, in an EH Tide Turns I found right about before the first shrine (and avoiding a lot of unnecessary fights) I'd have my counter up, hit MB and I could keep it going clearing out the rest of the map past the 2nd shrine to where you zone out to the roof to hit the switch (note that this zone-switching killed MB's active phase). While under MB, I was basically 1 or 2-shotting all the trash with constant big 4-figure numbers. Again, coming from a CHA-based bard, it was a pretty darn good feeling. I think I saw in another thread that fully tricked out in LD, that eGA you're swinging is a 19/20 x6 weapon.

Having the 3 ranks in Momentum Swing is key in my mind as that gives your Clv/G.Clv 50% chance to reset Mom.Swing and only Momentum Swing has the chance to reset your Lay Waste (25%) which is great CC on drow and yuan-ti casters.

I am kind of torn between FS and LD as a 'main' ED (in Fury right now and it's underwhelming 8 points in but I don't have any barb levels--yet). When I'm in either FS or LD, I'll usually twist from the other and salt with some mix and match of Primal Scream, Healing Spring or Unearthly Reactions from Magister.

[LafoMamone]

And finally: Is this actually more DPS than Fatesinger?

I had to chuckle at this question, because it is a bit ridiculous. When it comes to THF, nothing comes close to Fury and LD.

I am currently running a Horc 16/2/2 Spellsinger in LD, and even with a lootgen sword, the dps is pretty crazy. eAGA is actually pretty bad for general dps, so I am currently running mostly with an Impellent GS of Hemorraging until I get the eSOS, Cleaver, Breach, eXuum, or something similar. This is one of my favorite toons atm. I can't wait to see him when he is fully geared out (there is still some ways to go in that regard).

I did drop the THF line for Quicken and Maximize, as I tend to solo a lot and that quickened/maximized Cure Critical is healing me for a ton. I would personally go with LD Haste Boost 3 (30%) rather than just Haste Boost 1 (15%) you get from fighter, as the difference is quite noticeable, and I haven't been impressed with Anvil of Thunder. Master's Blitz is also not particularly great on a build that has next to no tactical feats, as you have pointed out.

[katz]

eAGA is actually pretty bad for general dps...

really? huh. no offense or challenge intended but could you point out a post or other information for me (my search fu is weak sometimes) showing this? i was under the impression the eAGA was good damage because of it's higher than average base damage.

[karl_k0ch]

I had to chuckle at this question, because it is a bit ridiculous. When it comes to THF, nothing comes close to Fury and LD.

I was just curious if the personal +5 damage, +2 str, 115.5 sonic + electric on vorpals, +3% melee attack speed, the Turn of the Tide bonus damage as well as the electric/light/sonic vulnerability debuffs and the party-wide +2 damage effect could possibly outweigh the bonuses of LD.


Master's Blitz is also not particularly great on a build that has next to no tactical feats, as you have pointed out.
Do LW and MS count for MB?
Picking up Improved Sunder is another option, though I don't see the charging up to be an issue, but rather the actual keeping it running.

[katz]

Do LW and MS count for MB?

yes. i spam all 4 "cleave" moves pretty much constantly... but rarely do anything else aside from the occasional trip. charges up just fine

[LafoMamone]

really? huh. no offense or challenge intended but could you point out a post or other information for me (my search fu is weak sometimes) showing this? i was under the impression the eAGA was good damage because of it's higher than average base damage.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=399357

Some of it is in there, some in another thread which I can't find now (which derailed into EEGOF obtainability discussion in which Shade made himself look ridiculous yet again). I have found that for me, a high prefix/suffix 2[xdx] weapon outweighs the dps of an eAGA, the latter of which I use only when DR breaking is necessary.

This is also why many believe that eEGOF > eAGA on non fire-resistant mobs. Hell, even the Drow Greataxe is better than eAGA in general damage.

[.Revenga.]

I am currently TR'ing my barb into a very similar build (16/2/2 warchanter/ftr/druid).

I'll be using both LD (eaga probably) and FotW (eSoS) depending on the party setup. LD is much more intresting in solo/shortman as you can keep up your MB without much trouble. FotW is more for raids.

I went for human instead of dwarf tho, for more feats (i might take imp. sunder and i'll definitely take stunning blow) and to use LD/Ftr haste boost in combo with human damage boost.

The damage should be comparable/slightly better to his previous lvl 20 barb build w/o epic destinies, which means very substantial and of course you gain all the goodies of the 16 bard lvl's (which shows to me how low barbs have actually fallen)

Something i'm not sure of is if i'll stay warchanter, because it costs a feat and the gains are so low in comparison to all the goodies that ED's give anyway. Might go for virtuoso for easier CC/fun and a feat.

[LafoMamone]

Do LW and MS count for MB?

Yes.


Picking up Improved Sunder is another option, though I don't see the charging up to be an issue, but rather the actual keeping it running.

That is precisely my concern with it. It is easy keeping it up in a sub-par PUG raid, but certainly not in my guild runs.

Also, according to DDOWiki it is heavily bugged. Not sure if this has been fixed.

[karl_k0ch]

Also, according to DDOWiki it is heavily bugged. Not sure if this has been fixed.

What do you mean with 'it'? Improved Sunder, Sundering Swings, or Master's Blitz?


http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=399357
...
This is also why many believe that eEGOF > eAGA on non fire-resistant mobs. Hell, even the Drow Greataxe is better than eAGA in general damage.

The thread you linked says several things: One, that eGAoF and eAGA are of similar Quality. Two, that Cleaver can outperform an eSoS, if in LD (and the calculations are for HOrcs, not for Dwarves, which further favors Cleaver). In the long run, I'm planning to pick up a Cleaver and use the eAGA as DR breaker.

[Nephilia]

Karl... it's unbelievable than we two always have the same idea about bard's builds XD
Do u remember when we were building the bard-tank? XD
+1 for the build :P
Just I used Human instead of dwarf, but the rest is pratically the same!!!

[karl_k0ch]

Karl... it's unbelievable than we two always have the same idea about bard's builds XD
Do u remember when we were building the bard-tank? XD
+1 for the build :P
Just I used Human instead of dwarf, but the rest is pratically the same!!!
Yeah, I do remember, and it's actually my ex-Shieldsinger we're talking about here. :) I don't see much need for extra AC on him at the very moment, and I'd like to keep the Axe-Flavor, but contribute more DPS.

But then, I'm looking forward towards the Epic Skyvault Shield, Dwarven Defender, and other tasty stuff which is possibly coming with u17.

[zwiebelring]

Picking up Improved Sunder is another option, though I don't see the charging up to be an issue, but rather the actual keeping it running.

That is a problem for every LD and not related to the original class setup. My Barbarian cannot hold max stacks in a full party where wizards intentionally steal the kill and Monks EiN everything so you can use it as a gimmick or keep it up by separating from the group.

Another big problem is, that you have so many short time buffs with LD and special attack hot buttons, that you might feel like playing a Monk or the piano.

[karl_k0ch]

Another big problem is, that you have so many short time buffs with LD and special attack hot buttons, that you might feel like playing a Monk or the piano.
YES!

Song! Rage! Haste! Displace! Action Boost! Lay Waste! Momentum Swing! Cleave! More Cleave! Scroll Heal! Action Boost! Cleave! Redisplace!

Hmmmm. Do I want to pick up Quicken?

[LafoMamone]

What do you mean with 'it'? Improved Sunder, Sundering Swings, or Master's Blitz?

Master's Blitz.


The thread you linked says several things: One, that eGAoF and eAGA are of similar Quality. Two, that Cleaver can outperform an eSoS, if in LD (and the calculations are for HOrcs, not for Dwarves, which further favors Cleaver). In the long run, I'm planning to pick up a Cleaver and use the eAGA as DR breaker.

The other thread was a better discussion (I will try to look for it when I get off work, but it was a while ago), but the gist of my initial post was that eAGA was only good for DR-breaking and not good for general damage, considering the wide range of alternatives that we have available now. eSOS, eXuum, Cleaver, Breach, Drow Greataxe, and a wide range of lootgen weapons with killer prefixes/suffixes (Mangling, Obscenity, Meteoric, Tempestuous et al)...all better than eAGA.

[Miow]

I love this :)

[zwiebelring]

YES!

Song! Rage! Haste! Displace! Action Boost! Lay Waste! Momentum Swing! Cleave! More Cleave! Scroll Heal! Action Boost! Cleave! Redisplace!

Hmmmm. Do I want to pick up Quicken?
I hope I will reach LD soon on my TWF Warchanter so I can compare yours and mine ;).

[karl_k0ch]

I hope I will reach LD soon on my TWF Warchanter so I can compare yours and mine ;).
I'm bracing for kill steals already, and so should you.

[Nephilia]

My tentative plan for LD is:

Extra Action Boost 3
+1 Str (mainly for progressing the tree)
Damage Boost 1
Momentum Swing 3
Improved Power Attack
Critical Damage 3
Lay Waste
Haste Boost 3
Anvil of Thunder (does this make sense?)
Advancing Blows
Devastating Critical
Headmen's Chop.



Those are not too much point spent, karl?

Was thinking... what's the benefit of dwarf over human or half-orc if u want a STR build of a bard swinging around a THF weapon?
I mean human is 1 feat (stunning blow? something cool?), 1 skill point, human versatility and more heal amp.
Horc is more STR, more damage enhancement whit power attack line and even more STR.
Dwarf where usually used to improve max dex on armor and better defense (plus the +2/+2 damage hit whit dwarven axe) but as u said grind for more AC is pretty useless at this point so are the COS point so important?

[karl_k0ch]

Was thinking... what's the benefit of dwarf over human or half-orc if u want a STR build of a bard swinging around a THF weapon?
I mean human is 1 feat (stunning blow? something cool?), 1 skill point, human versatility and more heal amp.
Horc is more STR, more damage enhancement whit power attack line and even more STR.
Dwarf where usually used to improve max dex on armor and better defense (plus the +2/+2 damage hit whit dwarven axe) but as u said grind for more AC is pretty useless at this point so are the COS point so important?

It's a dwarf because Thorkar is a dwarf.
HOrc or Human is probaly more dps, and I agree that the benefits of dwarf are marginal. But I'm currently not that eager to TR him.

[Nephilia]

It's a dwarf because Thorkar is a dwarf.
HOrc or Human is probaly more dps, and I agree that the benefits of dwarf are marginal. But I'm currently not that eager to TR him.

Oh that's the point!!
Thought u were TRing him, sorry :P

anyway... don't forget tenser transformation for your buff :D

[karl_k0ch]

Thought u were TRing him, sorry :P
Nah, I used the free LR to get the feat progession in the OP.

[WruntJunior]

Master's Blitz really only shines when soloing or when a group is working together to make sure one person is getting the majority of the kills, in all honesty; however, it works quite well for me on my melee FvS - the only problem is that on occasion it doesn't consider enemies as "worthy", and the dodge is not a free 50% dodge - it's capped by MDB, and probably by the 25% dodge cap (which is too bad, because it'd be really nice for EE soloing).

That said, because Master's Blitz is hard to keep up in a raid or the like, I generally run Fury of the Wild there, with momentum swing twisted in - a possible idea for your bard.

[Dasthug]

I'm glad I stumbled across this thread, as I'm planning to eventually TR my horc Barb into a 16/2/2 (still unsure if the last 2 is rogue or barb, but I'll probably swing for the evasion.)

I was concerned that going from Barb to warchanter would be a big shock when it comes to damage loss, but the discussion here is mitigating those fears a bit. Obviously pure Barb is going to do more THF damage, but knowing I can still look forward to kicking some ass in the right ED as a warchanter is reassuring.

[Humperdink]

How are you guys finding THF and cleaves with Fascinate/Enthrall? One of the reasons I chose TWF Khopesh years ago on my melee bard was so I could attack in the middle of a thick mob and not disturb them. Especially with teleporting orthons and devils. Running my bard again recently in U14-16 EH/EE content and I'm not seeing any different.

Also, is LD recommended for TWF khopesh? I just capped Fatesinger and I'm eyeing other destinies to try. Hope you don't mind the extra questions in your thread Karl.

[katz]

when i'm THF cleaving, i'm usually not also enthralling. usually i'm just buffing myself up (hage, stoneskin, blur/displace, ghostly item equipped, and inspire courage/greatness/excellence) and brute forcing it (to the tune of 90-140 base damage per swing plus extras and anywhere between 300 all the way to 1300 on crits/cleaves/momentum swings with an eAGA. i expect even more damage when i swap to Fury) if i'm in a situation where i NEED to enthrall/fascinate to pull off the win, i do my song, then i pick off one or two at a time from the pack and whittle them down at my leisure.

[vyvy3369]

How are you guys finding THF and cleaves with Fascinate/Enthrall? One of the reasons I chose TWF Khopesh years ago on my melee bard was so I could attack in the middle of a thick mob and not disturb them. Especially with teleporting orthons and devils. Running my bard again recently in U14-16 EH/EE content and I'm not seeing any different.

Also, is LD recommended for TWF khopesh? I just capped Fatesinger and I'm eyeing other destinies to try. Hope you don't mind the extra questions in your thread Karl.
Just got done with my twf khopesh bard life and LD was my favorite ED. Took a deeper splash to fit in OC, so LD fit in well and was a big boost in personal DPS. If you can get some the drow khopeshes worked very well. Was hard to get a good blitz going in group but was amazing solo.

[karl_k0ch]

How are you guys finding THF and cleaves with Fascinate/Enthrall? One of the reasons I chose TWF Khopesh years ago on my melee bard was so I could attack in the middle of a thick mob and not disturb them. Especially with teleporting orthons and devils. Running my bard again recently in U14-16 EH/EE content and I'm not seeing any different.

Also, is LD recommended for TWF khopesh? I just capped Fatesinger and I'm eyeing other destinies to try. Hope you don't mind the extra questions in your thread Karl.

Sorry for the delay.
Indeed, Glancing Blows (and Cleave attacks) and Fascinate are not working exceptionally well together, unless you are very aware of where you're standing. This means you need to be very careful in choosing from where to attack when you are facing a horde of fascinated mobs.

If you take a look at the feat list in the OP, and add one feat (because you go human), then it's going to be tight to fit in the TWF line, the OC line (Cleave, Great Cleave, Overwhelming Critical) and Khopesh Proficiency - you might need to drop extend. This is the only issue I see with LD and Khopeshes.

Since Inspire Courage adds a flat bonus to damage, TWF builds actually benefit more from inspire courage than THF builds, so it's a good idea to use khopeshes.