Ranger: why are they lacking?

[Jay203]

so apparently rangers are practically deem worthless if they have to choose between melee spec or range spec for the free feats?

why? is it the stupid feat requirements of Tempest?
you people think Rangers will make a comeback with the enhancement pass?

[Bacab]

so apparently rangers are practically deem worthless if they have to choose between melee spec or range spec for the free feats?

why? is it the stupid feat requirements of Tempest?
you people think Rangers will make a comeback with the enhancement pass?

Ranger attempts to be DPS...

Here are their problems...

No class toughness enhancements...

Tempest requires too many "flavor" feats on a class that does not get a ton of free feats (FTR or MNK do)

Every other melee class not named Paladin simply outclasses Ranger.
Barb gets Frenzy Berserker
FIghter gets Stallwart and Kensei
MNK gets faster attack speed and all those MNK goodies
ROG gets Mechanic (better ranged dps when you count sneak attack)..Assassin is better melee...and that whole traps thing

Tempest needs to go back to the 10% alaclarity!

[Mastikator]

so apparently rangers are practically deem worthless if they have to choose between melee spec or range spec for the free feats?

why? is it the stupid feat requirements of Tempest?
you people think Rangers will make a comeback with the enhancement pass?
No, because there's not going to be an enhancement pass.

I think it's mainly because most rangers insist on only being melee or ranged when they get free feats to both.

[Whesper]

I think it's mainly because most rangers insist on only being melee or ranged when they get free feats to both.

This three times over. I have seen too many rangers that either don't even carry melee weapons xor don't carry any bows. Then tempests try and play their toon like it's Kensei or barb and the the AAs play like that bow is nailed to their palms.

When a ranger is played like a ranger, it's a really nice class. Self buffs, ok saves, full BAB, cure wounds wands use, plenty of skillpoints, castable resists and FoM. Good melee and ranged options. It's a great class for beginners and/or soloers that can not afford tomes or don't have good gear. It's very viable for splashing (e.g. monk, rogue or fighter).

It's those same people that tried to play their druid like a sorc and got disappointed.

[blerkington]

Hi,

I think the feat and AP costs for tempest and AA are a little steep for what you get. At least for tempests some of those feats were recently made a little more useful.

But I do like rangers anyway. The class has a lot to offer, when you can get outside the e-peen mentality where the characters that give the biggest possible numbers must be the best. It has some depth, it's versatile, and endgame rangers have a lot of useful options from the epic destinies. Plus so much of what you can do in the game comes from how you play, not what you play.

If you have the patience and understanding to build, gear and properly play a ranger it can be a very useful asset to a party. I'm still enjoying the class after eight lives of it, and it's always nice on those occasions when people I group with come to realise that a ranger is not necessarily a waste of a party slot. And it's just as good seeing someone else prove that too.

Thanks.

[Tokeri]

i love Rangers as a class. always have always will. but i have to agree that i like the older variants of the tempest pre that gave atkspeed, then the current one. although my new ranger im playing at cap is starting to stack quite a decent ammoun of PRR(no thanks to the ranger class, that should be noted). he is still alot weaker then a properly played monk and im not going to nit pick betwen rangers fighter and barbs . rangers got a ton of survivability its only fair that those classes outdmg rangers. but the current number crunching that they are getting outclassed by is mad, i guess im still stuck onthat godly 6 ranger split.

i guess there will always be someone who gets the short stick (not talking races lol warforged) but it used to be rogue's(when 18/2 wiz/rog splits where all the rage [not that long ago]) and such that where auto declained in a pug simply for being a rog, but nowdays its rangers its almost silly. i practicly have to beg people to let me join their raids nowdays when im playing my tempest ranger mainly because they know i dont have top notch dps i dont have immortal status AC and they are trying to avoid a kiteing agro magnet with 190hp hehe
sure il make my saves but daymn its almost like playing a 4/6/10 rog/sorc/fighter atm xD

you have to roll with the punches and learn to embrace alto-holism i still love my rangers and i play them often but they aint as usefull as other classes atm

if the rangers or namely the tempest pre is going to be viable again they need to up the bonuses from tempest 3. compared to other class 3 pre's tempest is probly the worst one imho if they buff the lower ones we will just see monster builds deluxe

edit: some of the good things about sub-optimal dps is that atm a tempest almost never steal agro from a tank build :P nonstop blending action. meep

[PNellesen]

Just about my favorite class is a Half-Elf 18 Ranger/1 Rogue/1 Fighter with Cleric Dilettante. Traps, locks, evasion, TWF for free(ish), haste boost, Manyshot, Ram's Might, Divine scrolls (Heal) with no UMD AND FoM? Sign me up! Every time I think about running a fighter or a barb I think "but who will give me FoM if I'm soloing?" and go Ranger instead :p (yeah, FoM's usefulness has been greatly reduced, but when you do need it, you REALLY need it...)

[Ape_Man]

No class toughness enhancements...

This is absolute nonsense. Most of the rangers at cap now are running around with 800+ HP and 20% damage mitigation from PRR while TWFing.

The lack of toughness enhancements is meaningless at this point, enough so that in this difficult world of picking feats I'd even put Toughness on the table if a better option presents itself..

I've got both a near maxed out Tempest and a near maxed out Khopesh Kensai III. I'm very familiar with what each class can and cannot do. The pure raw carnage of a Kensai Master's Blitzing its way through a quest is awesome, until you have to drink a silver flame pot and run SSSSLLLLLLOOOOOOOOWWWWW as hell for 30 seconds. My Tempest can hit a 300+ point CSW and keep going at full speed.

it's looking like tempests put out about 85% as much DPS as a Kensai all things being equal (this is NOT thoroughly tested, mostly anecdotal). Tempests can self heal and have a ranged option. Those are the tradeoffs.

[Captain_Wizbang]

No, because there's not going to be an enhancement pass.

Wrong. It was posted here on the forums, we WILL see the system get an overhaul. And early 2013 was the targeted time frame.

OP, as for rangers.
1st you must understand the initial concept. they are meant as a supportive AND main melee type of PC (player character)
Jack of all trades and master of none is how they can best be explained.

When used properly for multi-classing, they provide enough class granted abilities, to help you spend APs as you need for the builds we've seen posted here.

When going "pure" builds. you HAVE to focus on specific traits to bring them to the front.

I spent a long time working on a premier tempest build, and found a combination, that still kicks arse, even with the recent combat and ac changes.
The addition of Primal Avatar destiny that they can use is ok, but still not the best, and hopefully a few tweaks here and there, to both the class and that destiny would change my opinion on that.

From what I've seen with ranged spec'ed toons, is people tend to ignore the melee and survivability side, and that gives them a bad rap. also, as stated by a few devs, the complexity of coding for ranged attacks is huge, and has been a deterrent from major changes being made as of late.

Unfortunately, the class is in need of the over-haul the enhancement pass will bring, to allow better use of it's given attributes.

[redspecter23]

The "good" classes are all excel in one or more areas. In some cases, classes excel in nearly every area, but as long as a class does at least one thing very well, they aren't necessarily considered "gimp"

Have a look at ranger.

Ranged DPS: It's good (downright amazing during many shot), but other builds like monkcher or even a pure or nearly pure fighter beat rangers in the ranged DPS department. Sorcerers are arguably better ranged DPS while also bringing a whole toolbox of other useful spells and abilities as well.

Melee DPS: Passable at best. In the past before many of the other prestiges, they were considered top DPS. Then came twf nerfs combined with new prestiges for fighters and barbs. This double whammy hurt rangers big time. While their melee ability is still decent, it's not top tier any more. Whatever DPS a melee ranger could do, is done better by another class with similar gear.

Tricks and Tactics: Both fighters and monks can make great use of tactics and even gain bonuses due to their prestige lines or just because of the nature of the class. Barbarians with massive strength can stun very well. Rangers, while they could use stun, have to try harder to hit the DC's that come easily to other classes. The ranger spell list (other than buffs and heals) is very weak. No offensive spells of note (not expected either) and very narrow crowd control even if you were to be wisdom based, which isn't a great idea on a pure ranger currently.

Healing: Self healing is reasonable and with a small amount of gear and effort, can be quite good. You really have to at least build slightly for it, whether it's adding a metamagic or building for healing amp or slotting spell power somewhere, or a combination of all.

Conclusion: Pure and nearly pure Rangers are a DPS class which does not excel in that department compared to Sorcerers/Wizards (ranged) or Barbarians/Fighters (melee). This might be alright IF they brought other tricks to the table, but unfortunately, they are lacking there as well. Both rangers and paladins suffer this same fate currently. The easy solution would be to give them a DPS boost somewhere in the enhancement pass, but I feel that's not the right way to go.

Enhance a ranger's repertoire by adding useful utility abilities that add more to a party than just MOAR DAMAGE! Give snipers a ranged dex based assassinate type ability. Tempests should swing faster than a monk, though not necessarily harder than a barb. Expand the ranger spell list to include more great utility spells to help the group. Self buffs like Ram's Might are great, but give rangers something that adds to the party as a whole to make them a more well rounded party member.

[voodoogroves]

The game has changed; I'm not sure rangers and paladins are as far behind as they once were. They could use a boost, but we shouldn't aim to make the differences between fighters, barbs, rangers and paladins more vanilla.

[unbongwah]

Tempest requires too many "flavor" feats on a class that does not get a ton of free feats (FTR or MNK do)
Yeah, apart from Bow STR, TWF, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Manyshot, ITWF, GTWF, and Imp Prec Shot, rangers don't get squat!

:rolleyes:

I'll concede Diehard isn't much of a bonus, though. ;)

Rgrs have never been a minmax DPS class (tho the nerfs to Tempest I & III really hurt them); their strength lies in their versatility - no other class* gets their mix of melee, ranged, and survivability (buffs, self-heals, Evasion). Part of being a good ranger is knowing when to switch tactics & pull a different tool out of your toolbox.

*I've been experimenting with melee/ranged Artificers to try to come up with an arcane counterpart to rgrs, but with limited results. I may be trying to pound a square peg into a round hole again... :o

[murf201]

Really ??? Rangers are good at ranged but not the best ! Rangers are ok at melee no where near the best !!

So what do you get when your doing both ...... vanilla dps . So it really doesnt matter if you many shot then melee or vice versa or any routine of the both .

Problem is they don't know how to balance it . Rangers enhancment system is the only way to balance it imo , 90 percent of the power on a ranged or melee needs to come from the enhancments as feats won't do enough .

Hopefully the tree system will take care of that . I could see how that would work out .

[noinfo]

so apparently rangers are practically deem worthless if they have to choose between melee spec or range spec for the free feats?

why? is it the stupid feat requirements of Tempest?
you people think Rangers will make a comeback with the enhancement pass?

It really does come down to enhancements.
Once the rangers ruled due to the tempest pre compared to other classes:

nerf to tempest 1 alacrity, then shield bonus
hp became more important (rangers get no toughness bonus druids do, fs do but rangers don't?)
wider range of mobs now restrict FE bonus more
Stronger PRE for other melee classes
Self healing is well below that of divines who can melee about as well remember rangers dont get haste or damage boosts.
Monk splash death
Ac restructure
Lack of any tactics

Basically they have been proxy nerfed to death. Yeah they can be fun but currently don't think a tempest is even close in the dps race.

The small amount they have shown for enhancement pass is promising but seriously in the mean time they could have given a bit of life to them by:

1. give them haste boost
2. give them toughness enhancements equal to druid
3. tactics bonus vs FE


Edit and some sort of dodge bonus, monks get a huge one, rogues and barbs do as well.

[noinfo]

This is absolute nonsense. Most of the rangers at cap now are running around with 800+ HP and 20% damage mitigation from PRR while TWFing.

The lack of toughness enhancements is meaningless at this point, enough so that in this difficult world of picking feats I'd even put Toughness on the table if a better option presents itself..


Not true. Lack of toughness is valid in latter heroic and still in epic levels. Those 800 hp more than likely include being in FOTW, probably with the rage boost and wearing GS item.

Being able to drop a GS hp item slot is a big deal.

[Fedora]

Rangers enhancment system is the only way to balance it imo , 90 percent of the power on a ranged or melee needs to come from the enhancments as feats won't do enough .

Hopefully the tree system will take care of that . I could see how that would work out .

Agree. I love Rangers (and Paladins, I'm a glutton for punishment I guess) but whenever I go through the build template I end up going "meh" after level 12 or so on the enhamcements. Only things worthwhile after that seem to be Ranger Dex and Tempest III.

[Mastikator]

Wrong. It was posted here on the forums, we WILL see the system get an overhaul. And early 2013 was the targeted time frame.

It was also targeted for the MotU expansion, soon enough we'll get word that the enhancement pass is being pushed into the summer, and so on.

[Aashrym]

Tempest requires too many "flavor" feats on a class that does not get a ton of free feats (FTR or MNK do)

Rangers get 9 bonus feats. They just don't get to pick them, but even just the TWF free feats with no DEX req is comparable to monk bonus feats.


No, because there's not going to be an enhancement pass.

Quote please. If it's been cancelled I missed it.


so apparently rangers are practically deem worthless if they have to choose between melee spec or range spec for the free feats?

why? is it the stupid feat requirements of Tempest?
you people think Rangers will make a comeback with the enhancement pass?

If the enhancement pass goes through as suggested freeing up the current tempest feat prereq's will be a big bonus all by itself. I think they are in for a decent boost.

[Aashrym]

It was also targeted for the MotU expansion, soon enough we'll get word that the enhancement pass is being pushed into the summer, and so on.

It was never targeted for the expansion, but they were hoping to release it with or close to the same time. They were still working on it a couple of weeks ago so stating it's not going to happen isn't backed up by facts and it's more like doomsaying.

There's a lot of nice things going on in that pass so taking some extra time to do a better job and satisfy more customers doesn't seem like a bad thing to me. ;)

[FestusHood]

It's good that the classes are different. In the dps threads rangers and paladins are constantly maligned. Now for a change look through some of the lengthy byoh threads. Rangers and Paladins are revered, Barbarians are unplayable.

As far as rangers lacking enhancements, it's kind of a good thing. My ranger is a human. Lack of class enhancements means that i can actually take all of those groovy human enhancements that are so hard to fit in on an ap starved class, like paladin.

My human ranger has devoition 4, human heal amp 3, and empower healing metamagic. So far, have only managed to equip 10% and 20% heal amp equipment. Wearing a crafted trinket of devotion and ranged alacrity. He can heal himself for about 170 with cure serious wounds and empower healing turned on. Gets around 100 from cure moderate, and the cooldowns are low enough that you can virtually spam them back and forth.

[noinfo]

It's good that the classes are different. In the dps threads rangers and paladins are constantly maligned. Now for a change look through some of the lengthy byoh threads. Rangers and Paladins are revered, Barbarians are unplayable.

As far as rangers lacking enhancements, it's kind of a good thing. My ranger is a human. Lack of class enhancements means that i can actually take all of those groovy human enhancements that are so hard to fit in on an ap starved class, like paladin.

My human ranger has devoition 4, human heal amp 3, and empower healing metamagic. So far, have only managed to equip 10% and 20% heal amp equipment. Wearing a crafted trinket of devotion and ranged alacrity. He can heal himself for about 170 with cure serious wounds and empower healing turned on. Gets around 100 from cure moderate, and the cooldowns are low enough that you can virtually spam them back and forth.

Thats nice, now the well geared kensai and barbs will run those BYOH runs easier since

1. The mob they are fighting is either sitting due to being tripped or stunned and in both cases being used as a shield against the mobs.
2. When needed and if not already using a twist to self heal the little bits of damage that they are taking will drink a SF pot and heal themselves for 400+ points or if human 500+ while not losing much at all in the way of dps and can't be interupted (yes it does cost inventory and plat).

Lack of enhancements is never good and is the single reason Rangers and Pallies have been left behind.

[Jbmat5656]

Yeah, my ranger is pretty gimp. About 796 hp average, over 900 sp, AC is mid 60s, but that all is depending on ED. Carries 8 bows, so DR bypass is usually not an issue. Healing amp is only 30, average self heal is 140s/150s. Has ghostly/blur/smoke screen through items worn. Ghost touch/immune to fear/ff/striding all worn routinely. Has clickies for invis/gh/raise dead. Spell resist is 35. Oh yeah, he's human.

My str is mid/high 30s, dex is high 30s to max 44.

Yeah, I'm gimped. The only thing I can't do is pick locks, find traps.

Btw, I'm neither AA, DwS or Tempest. Such a wimp. Sigh, back to soloing EH quests. Pity I can't do EE, but that's what friends are for.

[Ape_Man]

. . .
Self healing is well below that of divines who can melee about as well remember rangers dont get haste or damage boosts . . .

Absolute nonsense.

[Fedora]

Btw, I'm neither AA, DwS or Tempest.

Interesting. Care to post your build? You've got me curious.

[yawumpus]

This three times over. I have seen too many rangers that either don't even carry melee weapons xor don't carry any bows. Then tempests try and play their toon like it's Kensei or barb and the the AAs play like that bow is nailed to their palms.

When a ranger is played like a ranger, it's a really nice class. Self buffs, ok saves, full BAB, cure wounds wands use, plenty of skillpoints, castable resists and FoM. Good melee and ranged options. It's a great class for beginners and/or soloers that can not afford tomes or don't have good gear. It's very viable for splashing (e.g. monk, rogue or fighter).

It's those same people that tried to play their druid like a sorc and got disappointed.

Sell buffs? +2 strength? Pretty wimpy compared to any other melee's enhancements.
cure wand use? Maybe for a first life at low levels, pretty pointless after that.
Resist elements? Not if your guild level is high enough.
FoM? Nerfed to death.
Skillpoints? Those make me happy. Splashing one level of rogue makes for a great ranger, but I am starting to wonder if trap DCs are creeping up beyond what made "one level of rogue in any [sic] class" viable. I strongly suspect that any melee ranger capstone won't be as good as a level of rogue much like the cleric capstone isn't worth losing clonk abilities.

A player who knows how to get plenty out of a nerfed build will play better than most players who mash buttons on an OP build. This doesn't mean that ranger has been nerfed to death, then ignored while nerfs to other things (like resists, FoM) kill any reason left to group with them. I love playing my [melee] ranger, and hate to think that it has been morphed into some sort of beginner's build, to be made before TRing into an artificer to add that little extra to ranged damage.

The final insult to me was that the "ranger" ED is ranged only. I'm not interested in an eternal grind to migrate my way over to fighter or something else I could use, and don't feel like paying Turbine for permission to use my ranger in a mostly-non-ranged way (I always remember I have a bow).

[Ape_Man]

Btw, I'm neither AA, DwS or Tempest. Such a wimp. Sigh, back to soloing EH quests. Pity I can't do EE, but that's what friends are for.

Learn a little more, get some more gear and experience and you'll be able to solo many EEs.

[Chai]

The major issue is the game is too monte haul for the utility rangers gain to be considered compensation for doing less DPS and having less selectable feats than say...a fighter.

In a low magic campaign, a fighter will do more damage, however, the utility of having barkskin, rams might, resists, freedom, camo, cure wounds spells, etc..is a decent trade off, because that utility cant be had in other ways. In DDO, most of that stuff can be bought or farmed on items to the point where a pure fighter can almost equal the utility of a ranger, yet still far out DPS the ranger at the same time.

This is also why most arcane multiclass builds are considered gimp. Most of the utility gained can just be had off limitless consumibles and ship buffs.

theres no reason why ranger shouldnt be much closer to fighters in terms of raw damage in a game this monte haul.

An example would by my NWN PW server I ran for ~5 years or so. Very very little magic available in the form of consumibles. Spellsword builds were popular, and there were many variants of them. In a monte haul game, being 2 rogue 1 fighter 7 wizard would be gimp, but in a low magic game, where the only place you are getting buffs is out of your own spell pool, its not such a bad build - and far better than 10 pure fighter (which is right around the cutoff in that game where its tough to be any kind of self sufficient without at least some kind of self cast magic).

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It's the people who judge "worth" only by how much DPS you do, that consider Rangers worthless.

Or more correctly those who think you have to do top DPS to be worthwhile.


Rangers are versitile. That is there strength and appeal in DDO.

The largest part of that versitility is that they do "both" ranged and TWF styles well.

I would add that their Evasion and high Ref.. and high amount of Skill points... good class skills for stealth and Jump.

enough skill points to invest in cross-class skills, like UMD.

Self buffs. Resists, Protects, Jump.
Some self healing ability.

I also think that Sprint Boost enhancment is valuable.

Wild Empathy and summon spells have value as well.



But of course.. none of this appeals to those who just care about the highest DPS.

and people will argue that nothing else matters in DDO....

But I think that Rangers are a very fun class to play: my favorite in fact.

and it is mostly because of how many things the class can do that attracts me.

The high versitility of the Ranger class has "worth" to me.

And those players who play them well make them a worthy class.

[FestusHood]

Thats nice, now the well geared kensai and barbs will run those BYOH runs easier since

1. The mob they are fighting is either sitting due to being tripped or stunned and in both cases being used as a shield against the mobs.
2. When needed and if not already using a twist to self heal the little bits of damage that they are taking will drink a SF pot and heal themselves for 400+ points or if human 500+ while not losing much at all in the way of dps and can't be interupted (yes it does cost inventory and plat).

Lack of enhancements is never good and is the single reason Rangers and Pallies have been left behind.

Not really interested in an epeen measuring contest, but a few comments.

If you are using silver flame pots as your main form of healing, are you sure 'running' through a quest is an accurate description?

My ranger is an aa, the stay frosty ability from shiradi, along with improved precise shot, provides an awful lot of crowd control. After a few seconds most mobs are moving around as if they had just drunk a silver flame pot. Pin and Otto's whistler seem to work pretty well too. `

I haven't progressed enough in ed's to have twists yet, but as i understand them, you can use yours to heal, i can use mine to up dps. It's all good.

The main melee weapon i am currently using is the elemental rapier of air. When i'm in a group i consider it a main focus of my role to make every trash mob blind as soon as possible. Will it work in epic elite? Probably not, so i guess it's a good thing that i don't really care about playing epic elite.

On a side note, i like to solo things with a hireling sometimes. I used to always take a cleric or fvs to help me out with the healing, but my rangers healing is good enough that now i usually take a rogue or a barb, or even a wiz hireling. I can pretty easily keep them up, and they add a ton of dps, or crowd control in the case of the wiz. It's a fair trade.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The major issue is the game is too monte haul for the utility rangers gain to be considered compensation for doing less DPS and having less selectable feats than say...a fighter.

In a low magic campaign, a fighter will do more damage, however, the utility of having barkskin, rams might, resists, freedom, camo, cure wounds spells, etc..is a decent trade off, because that utility cant be had in other ways. In DDO, most of that stuff can be bought or farmed on items to the point where a pure fighter can almost equal the utility of a ranger, yet still far out DPS the ranger at the same time.

This is also why most arcane multiclass builds are considered gimp. Most of the utility gained can just be had off limitless consumibles and ship buffs.

theres no reason why ranger shouldnt be much closer to fighters in terms of raw damage in a game this monte haul.

An example would by my NWN PW server I ran for ~5 years or so. Very very little magic available in the form of consumibles. Spellsword builds were popular, and there were many variants of them. In a monte haul game, being 2 rogue 1 fighter 7 wizard would be gimp, but in a low magic game, where the only place you are getting buffs is out of your own spell pool, its not such a bad build - and far better than 10 pure fighter (which is right around the cutoff in that game where its tough to be any kind of self sufficient without at least some kind of self cast magic).

A very good point, and I do kinda agree with you.

But the items required to be versititle on other classes requires a certain amount of grinding.

and maybe even more correctly; requires making those items a priority for your character... something I think few PUGers do.

Because I see few PUGers actually being as versitile as they theoretically could be.


My first and main character has 5 lvls of Wizard.
I have considered every adition of gear in the game that has given a Barbarian the same abilities that I gained from those five Wizard levels to be a nerf to my build.

Yes. Gear is out there to gain permanent Blur... Haste on demand. Displacement clickies as well.

Epic Destinies and twists allow other classes to even get Evasion I think.

By end game... after some grinding..... there is no reason to choose a class for verisitility, because any class can become just as versitile.... eventually..... if they want to be.

But... what I see in PUGs... and lvling up from 1-19....and even higher....
that versitility is still fun to have.

[voodoogroves]

I would totally support enhancements that improved favored enemy DPS, maybe added additional FEs or improved interactions w/ FEs (like the tactics DC option above) as well as short-term burst spells that could apply to the ranger only. Self Haste. Self-elemental weapons. etc. Oh and scaling Barkskin.

[murf201]

It's the people who judge "worth" only by how much DPS you do, that consider Rangers worthless.

Or more correctly those who think you have to do top DPS to be worthwhile.


Rangers are versitile. That is there strength and appeal in DDO.

The largest part of that versitility is that they do "both" ranged and TWF styles well.

I would add that their Evasion and high Ref.. and high amount of Skill points... good class skills for stealth and Jump.

enough skill points to invest in cross-class skills, like UMD.

Self buffs. Resists, Protects, Jump.
Some self healing ability.

I also think that Sprint Boost enhancment is valuable.

Wild Empathy and summon spells have value as well.



But of course.. none of this appeals to those who just care about the highest DPS.

and people will argue that nothing else matters in DDO....

But I think that Rangers are a very fun class to play: my favorite in fact.

and it is mostly because of how many things the class can do that attracts me.

The high versitility of the Ranger class has "worth" to me.

And those players who play them well make them a worthy class.

Are we playing the same game !! Are you still running the ddo classics the sewers , you mention sprint boost and a bunch of non essential spells that can be cast by clickies and such . Yes there great in low level content !!!

The only relevant point you made was that they are fun to play .

[squishwizzy]

I dunno. I got a first-life AA Helf with a rogue dilly. Of all my different toons, he is the easiest to solo, very survivable, and utterly brutal in clearing a room or taking down a boss with multishot.

Find the right bow, don't be an idiot with your arrow imbues, and it's hard to not be successful. Just make sure his Sneak value is high.

[Beethoven]

Rangers are versitile. That is there strength and appeal in DDO.

Rangers are versatile. That is their strength in PnP, but it translates badly into online games like DDO were most members of a group are supposed to fill a specific function. Rangers are supposed to be more self sufficient, but it gets lost if you can get the same (or better) from gear.

Simply put, what hurts Rangers in DDO the most is:
* class versatility translates to being neither here or there (they are not as self sufficient as an actual divine class, but also do not have the damage output of a different melee class).
* a relative weak (and front ladden) pre.

As anecdote: my main is a ranger. I kept him as main largely for sentimental reasons; he dates back all the way to ye (good) ol' times were Shroud was endgame, Exploiter was considered the ultimate build and Tempest was the only pre we had. Back in the day he was nigh' unstoppable.

Then came nerf after nerf, other classes got their pre's and after the pre's of these classes were buffed further while all Tempest got was another nerf. He still could hold his own between Kensais and Frenzied Berserkers in but I wasn't fooling myself that it is because more often than not he had superior gear ( he is ladden with stuff from epic bloodstone to virtually every epic from Chronoscope, Red Fens and House P, not trying to boast just stressing how long and much he been played) and because of numerous past life's.

So, obviously I was (and am) a staunch defender of the class, but even I ended TR'ing and re-speccing him finally this fall. He still is a ranger, but now he is 12 ranger / 6 fighter / 2 monk and while I lost FoM and some self healing, it was such a huge dps increase on top of getting enough selectable feats to actually make him LD, there is no comparison and no going back (not unless the Enhancement pass gives a considerable boost to the Ranger class anyway).

Rangers get most their stuff early on, but virtually nothing in the higher levels which ultimately created a class that actually adds more benefit as splash than on its own. Case in point: 6 levels of Ranger adds a /lot/, 12 levels are sort of okay, but anything beyond adds fairly little (compared to what levels in other classes add). The more Turbine then started pushing going pure, the less rangers (and splashes) we saw.

[noinfo]

Absolute nonsense.

You seriously think so?

Equally geared that melee divine using 2 handed fighting and likely using an esos vs a 2 wf tempest with drow khopeshes?

vs non FE what bonuses do rangers get?

vs FE they get a small bonus vs whatever the divine chooses to ballance that with.

Those ED's make no difference as the Divine can leverage those for their dps too.

[noinfo]

Not really interested in an epeen measuring contest, but a few comments.

If you are using silver flame pots as your main form of healing, are you sure 'running' through a quest is an accurate description?

My ranger is an aa, the stay frosty ability from shiradi, along with improved precise shot, provides an awful lot of crowd control. After a few seconds most mobs are moving around as if they had just drunk a silver flame pot. Pin and Otto's whistler seem to work pretty well too. `

I haven't progressed enough in ed's to have twists yet, but as i understand them, you can use yours to heal, i can use mine to up dps. It's all good.

The main melee weapon i am currently using is the elemental rapier of air. When i'm in a group i consider it a main focus of my role to make every trash mob blind as soon as possible. Will it work in epic elite? Probably not, so i guess it's a good thing that i don't really care about playing epic elite.

On a side note, i like to solo things with a hireling sometimes. I used to always take a cleric or fvs to help me out with the healing, but my rangers healing is good enough that now i usually take a rogue or a barb, or even a wiz hireling. I can pretty easily keep them up, and they add a ton of dps, or crowd control in the case of the wiz. It's a fair trade.

Sorry the ability to self heal is always brought up in these things as a plus and while I tend to get a bit short in my responses its basically this: The healing is nice but not enough to make up for the lack of everything else.

As for SF slowing people down, you are kidding right? You seriously over estimate the amount of damage you take soloing on a Barb or a kensai in EH or lower.As for damage a really good tip is that mobs who are tripped or stunned don't hit back and make great shields blocking other mobs, while cleaving away. (This is relevant to the discussion because this is one signifcant area where rangers are lacking badly)

Regarding your side note, I never take hirelings when soloing they tend to get in the way and really the only thing worth using them for is death ward (and if I am soloing then I am soloing).

While I respect that you don't feel the need to do EE, any class should be able to perform in there and rangers currently do not perform as well as anyone else (maybe pallies)

As for twists, the healing ones are tier 1, go find a tier 1 twist that will make your dps half way close to a barb or kensai while they are often adequate self healing and have sf pots for 550 or so as required

Rangers can be built to perform and not be gimped that is never an issue, its just that currently you can do better with virtually any other class. Currently I would favour a ranged ranger over a melee one.

BTW the point of the response is not that Rangers are gimped beyond all hope, its that they need attention.

[Ape_Man]

You seriously think so?

I know so.



Equally geared that melee divine using 2 handed fighting and likely using an esos vs a 2 wf tempest with drow khopeshes?

The ESOS wielder sounds a hell of a lot like my ESOS wielding Horc Bard. I play that type of toon all the time. And I can tell you EVEN WITH ALWAYS HAVING BARD SONGS it's not close.



vs non FE what bonuses do rangers get?

100% off-hand attacks, 5% double-strike



vs FE they get a small bonus vs whatever the divine chooses to ballance that with.

+12 damage a swing is a SMALL bonus?



Those ED's make no difference as the Divine can leverage those for their dps too.

But you don't get the same benefits. with ANYTHING that gives per/swing damage bonuses Tempest gain the most as they get the most swings.

[Ape_Man]

BTW the point of the response is not that Rangers are gimped beyond all hope, its that they need attention.

This I can agree with, but saying something like a melee divine does the same damage is absolute rubbish.

[nibel]

Keeping it simple, the DPS part of the ranger class feature is Favored Enemy. If you are hitting your favored enemy, you SHOULD be dealing equal damage to a equalçy equipped fighter or barbarian. On the other hand, out of your Favored Enemy habitat, you fall behind.

It was true some years ago. And was exploited when the endgame was limited to a very few types of mobs, where the FE options become a no-brainer (to this day, many people keep undead-giant-evil outsider as no-brainers because of this). The extra damage bonus caps at +14 if you stay pure (equivalent to 4d6 damage that Death Frenzy gives barbarians).

The problem is: After that FE exploit, with the tempest PrE being overpowered for so long (because it was the ONLY PrE around, and TWF was king), the devs started buffing the other classes, and keep Ranger at the same place.

They don't have Haste Boost
They don't have Damage Boost
They don't have increased attack speed
Epic levels have a great variety of mobs that make your Favored Enemy options really hard to choose (except by evil outsider)
Arcane Archer is not dependent on Ranger class (actually, it is weaker for a pure h/elf ranger, since you can then only have one PrE)
Self-healing is still strong at leveling, but we have a ton of self-healing options on EDs now (Fast Healing, Healing Spring, Rejuveneation Cocoon), and HP inflation made ranger's healing spell hard to keep on the increasing HP numbers
Barkskin was proxy nerfed with acessibility of natural armor items on random loot
Resist Energy is more a backup plan than something you need to cast on the entire party before some quests (thanks to guild shipbuffs)
They have no offensive spell at all (not that it ever was their focus, but adds as a "con")
Their spell list is ridiculously short and very few of them are actually useful, making less desirable to have over 15 ranger leves anyway (where CSW caps and you get the 4th FE)


Adding all this, you see that while rangers ARE a string class by itself, the sum of things that they can do and can be replicated equally well (or in some cases, better) by another class or consumables/clickies, makes the ranger benefits looks untempting.

Enhancement pass showed that Tempest tree could actually fit Haste Boost there. This can give rangers a boost on DPS. Increasing bonus against FE might be another boost (eg, Deepwood Sniper capstone being the "slaying arrow" effect on all FE on ranged and melee attacks). Giving rangers MORE healing spellpower than clerics/fvs might be another good shot, since they have less powerful healing spells and a harder time slotting devotion items. We have a lot of room for improvement here, but it depends on what the devs will choose for the enhancement pass, and how this will be handled for the other classes.

Right now, the only reason to ever cap a pure ranger is flavor, or if you want a non-h/elf arcane archer.

[Zachski]

The biggest problem with Rangers, IMO, is that the first 12 levels of Ranger are great, the next 8 levels are not.

Once you get 12 levels, there's little reason to keep leveling up as a ranger.

[noinfo]

I know so.


The ESOS wielder sounds a hell of a lot like my ESOS wielding Horc Bard. I play that type of toon all the time. And I can tell you EVEN WITH ALWAYS HAVING BARD SONGS it's not close.

100% off-hand attacks, 5% double-strike

+12 damage a swing is a SMALL bonus?

But you don't get the same benefits. with ANYTHING that gives per/swing damage bonuses Tempest gain the most as they get the most swings.

100% off-hand attacks, 5% double-strike would close the damage on the esos itself, the problem is that you then need to factor in glancing blows and you are right anything that gives per swing bonus will favour the tempest vs a single target but also gets factored into glancing blows vs 1 and more targets, then add to this the specific bonuses given to your favourite ED for tempest FTW which specifically has bonuses too 2 handed fighting.

+12 bonus sounds great until you factor in that offsetting that bonus is probably a dot vs a mob thats being problematic or a comet fall to put some mobs on their backsides (or maybe gc or ED) or even the fact that you can be in the middle of the mobs swinging away while your aura is ticking over healing you while swinging. Divine might 1 or maybe even 2 if you have a large enough tome for 2-4 extra damage.

[barecm]

I dunno... not speced Fury of the Wild, I can crit for over 1300 with a bow on my elf pure ranger AA. He has over 700 hps too. When I switch to shiradi champ, I do awesome crowd control and still dish out around 500-700 on crits. Plus, I can heal myself for around 120 per cure serious... on a crit around 250 per. Plus all the resists and other self buff ranger stuff... not too bad. In my opinion, one of the top couple solo classes.

Unfortunately, the class lacks until you start gettig into the EDs and twisting in the proper fate feats or whatever it is called.

[noinfo]

I dunno... not speced Fury of the Wild, I can crit for over 1300 with a bow on my elf pure ranger AA. He has over 700 hps too. When I switch to shiradi champ, I do awesome crowd control and still dish out around 500-700 on crits. Plus, I can heal myself for around 120 per cure serious... on a crit around 250 per. Plus all the resists and other self buff ranger stuff... not too bad. In my opinion, one of the top couple solo classes.

Unfortunately, the class lacks until you start gettig into the EDs and twisting in the proper fate feats or whatever it is called.

And thats the problem, its the ED not the class.

[FestusHood]

And thats the problem, its the ED not the class.

Ah, but that would also be true of any twisted healing you got on your fighter.

[barecm]

And thats the problem, its the ED not the class.

Or the fact that you cannot use a decent bow until lvl 20 and up.

[noinfo]

Ah, but that would also be true of any twisted healing you got on your fighter.

SF pots, seriously takes responsibility for your own healing as a frontline melee. Twisted healing is nice but just makes things a little cheaper.

[noinfo]

Or the fact that you cannot use a decent bow until lvl 20 and up.

Improved weapons do help but no more than melee weapons.

[CodyGenX]

I would personally love to see rangers get Haste Boost, and full offhand damage. Add that to %5 doublestrike and its all good.

My first char and main was a ranger. I loved my alacrity, but I wasn't too mad when it was ripped from my hands. I had my monk lvl and was still sitting around 80 ac (which allowed me to be the last man standing in a few almost wipes). Now? My ranger is a monk and im bored.

If this enh pass comes around ill go straight back to my roots. H-orc tempest/ravager with full offhand, haste Boost, and shadowdancer with all its SA goodness? Yes please.

[goodspeed]

It's not that rangers are worthless. It's that going beyond 6 lvs of ranger is worthless lol. After those6 levels you really don't gain anything that nearly any other class couldn't just completely eclipse. 6 levels of ranger literally nets you everything you need to burst dps, range, and 2 weapon fight with the exclusion of GTWF.

And going a pure 20 ranger? People can say what they want, it's just a **** waste. Tempest 3 sucks.

And forget ranged. COMPLETELY. Outside of manyshot a ranger with a bow even if the stars align and all those monsters are single file saluting them, still looks just pathetic. I mean at some point you wonder how your ranger could be this handicapped with a weapon lol. The one armed one legged, one eyed man could do better dmg.

Right now the only way to even consider ranged as a standard is to have a deepish splash of monk. You gotta be a monk to be ranged.

Anyway theirs a laundry list of things wrong with the pure ranger. And aside from completely revamping them, along with ranged in every aspect the class will always be a splash class for twf. I think turb should take a few pages from gw2. I flippn love my ranger there. (heh again another of the list, over there my ranger gets pets. Specifically a badass polar bear that tanks lol)

[Bacab]

Ranger attempts to be DPS...


Tempest requires too many "flavor" feats on a class that does not get a ton of free feats (FTR or MNK do)



Tempest needs to go back to the 10% alaclarity!

To clarify what I mean...

3 Feats and all those needless enhancements...make Tempest not really worth it.

What I meant also is that other PREs may require feats...but at least they are USEFUL feats. Or at least the feats lead to something good (Weapon focus >>> weapon spec)

Also melee classes not named Fighter or MNK are tight on feats.

Pick your feats for RNG...don't you with Tempest did not require 3 feats?

It would be nice to fit in Maximize and Empower Heal easily right?

I know RNG gets some nice feats for free...

My point was more aimed at how "Expensive" Tempest is for how little it gives back now.

The AC pass...the Shield Bonus nerf...the Barkskin nerf (related to AC and how Natural Armor bonus is easy to get now).

It has to do with a lot of Proxy Nerfs (which NoInfo mentioned).

Also lets compare...

What is better...
A tempest that used Dodge, Mobilty, SPring Attack...

or an

Arcane Archer that used Mental Toughness (to qualify) and Maximize and Empowered Heal (self-heal)?

[Bacab]

Oh...

Buff Deepwood Sniper...

Give them Vorpal Arrows and an Assasinate ability.

Allow their Crit mods to change (give them a stacking Keen effect and add the multiplier)

For the Crit mod to work...make them have to not run...kinda like Archer's Focus ability.

I mentioned this like a year ago...

Anyway...in PNP...Deepwood Sniper was DIESEL. It is probably the worst PRE for any class in this game.

[barecm]

Oh...

Buff Deepwood Sniper...

Give them Vorpal Arrows and an Assasinate ability.

Allow their Crit mods to change (give them a stacking Keen effect and add the multiplier)

For the Crit mod to work...make them have to not run...kinda like Archer's Focus ability.

I mentioned this like a year ago...

Anyway...in PNP...Deepwood Sniper was DIESEL. It is probably the worst PRE for any class in this game.

This has been an issue for years. They announced the Prestige Enhancement system years ago and we have not seen any movement in a long, long time. I think it is quiet embarrassing if you ask me. It should not take YEARS to finish. Heck, complete development of a new game takes less in some cases.

[goodspeed]

Oh...

Buff Deepwood Sniper...

Give them Vorpal Arrows and an Assasinate ability.

Allow their Crit mods to change (give them a stacking Keen effect and add the multiplier)

For the Crit mod to work...make them have to not run...kinda like Archer's Focus ability.

I mentioned this like a year ago...

Anyway...in PNP...Deepwood Sniper was DIESEL. It is probably the worst PRE for any class in this game.

lol you know I'd actually completely forgotten that deepwood was even a pre.

[kingfisher]

the only thing wrong with rangers is that many people who try to play them suck at ddo. this also happens to be the only thing wrong with barbs. and battle casters.

[barecm]

And forget ranged. COMPLETELY. Outside of manyshot a ranger with a bow even if the stars align and all those monsters are single file saluting them, still looks just pathetic. I mean at some point you wonder how your ranger could be this handicapped with a weapon lol. The one armed one legged, one eyed man could do better dmg.

Only true if you don't know what you are doing. Get a pinion and a good build and you will see why. My pure ranger elf has over 700 hps, close to 1000 sp and hits hard. Over 1000-1300 crits. When in Fury of the wild, my adrenalized hits are closer to the 3300 range. You just need to know what you are doing. It is not an easy button class like WF wiz/sorc.