Removing old endgame grinds

[nibel]

There is a reason why every endgame quests/raids are grindy. The devs need something to keep people busy while they work on the next adventure pack.

However, once the game move on, and the old content is not top stuff anymore (and in some cases, not even desirable). Many people still run the old content for sentimental reason, or just to see how the old quests are. But since many of them have an inherent grind associated with them, they might experiment the quest, but is not really close to experiment everything the old quests have.

Those suggestions are focused specifically on old quests, that were top stuff once, but are now on the "dont bother" category.

Restless Isles: Remove the requirement to run Hiding in Plain Sight to reach the area. I know there are way to bypass it with greater teleport and airship navigators, but cutting the middleman is always good.

Necropolis 4: Drop the Sigils. Require us to complete all four Necro 4 quests to access Litanny. Add a way for us to flag for the raid in a single run if we wish to (like Tor dragons).

Vale of Twilight: Stop dropping raw ingredients. Start dropping refined ingredients (Ore, Taper, etc on quests; Essences, Focus, Gem on Shroud). Raw ingredients can still be used, just don't drop anymore. Remove "Taint of Shavarath" from non-weapon greensteel. Detailed explanations at .

Reaver's Refuge: Remove the gems requirement for SoS: Run once EtK/Prey/Monastery for flag, and be always flagged. Add a 3rd completion reward list with the full list of runes for all 4 quests. Allow us to buy Dragontouched Armor right off the bat.

Devils of Shavarath: Remove the Trophies of War requirement to add Incredible Potential on ToD rings. Remove all ToD rings and turn them into a generic one with a random +6 stat (except constitution), a random +1 exceptional stat (so, 30 possible rings instead of actual 32), Incredible Potential, and a empty slot of "prestige class". Add an arcanaloth that allow you to use some trophies (9?) to add to the ring a prestige set bonus. Old rings stay as is, as legacy items. (Detailed explanations of this change at [url=http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4820081&postcount=11]post #11 (]post #7[/url))

Every Raid: If the raid is 2 years old or more, reduce their 20th reward list to a 10th completion reward list. If the raid is 4 years old or more, reduce it to a 5th completion reward list.

Every Eberron epic quest: Remove the Scroll/Seal/Shard combo. Allow us to trade them for an epic token (Epic Raid Token for Chrono/Sands/VoN shards), so we don't waste everything we farmed thus far. Instead of dropping seal/shards on chests, drop the completed epic items.

Opinions?

[ArgentMage]

I like where you're going with this. I'll /sign everything but the Epic Crafting.

Rather than remove Shards/Seals/Scrolls, I'd say continue the exercise they started
with trade-ins. But for Shards, make it 1:1, and for Seals, make it 2:1, within the
same quest pack. That would eliminate the vast majority of the grind, while making
the drops still something to look forward to, and give value to the work folks have
already done.

[Gkar]

Restless Isles: Remove the requirement to run Hiding in Plain Sight to reach the area. I know there are way to bypass it with greater teleport and airship navigators, but cutting the middleman is always good.

Reasonable.



Necropolis 4: Drop the Sigils. Require us to complete all four Necro 4 quests to access Litanny. Add a way for us to flag for the raid in a single run if we wish to (like Tor dragons).

Excellent ideas.



Vale of Twilight: Stop dropping raw ingredients. Start dropping refined ingredients (Ore, Taper, etc on quests; Essences, Focus, Gem on Shroud). Raw ingredients can still be used, just don't drop anymore.

I don't like this one. I could see it actually being more grindy in some ways as you'd need the right refined ingredients (and some are more used than others). The ingredients are also cheap on the AH, I see no reason to change this mechanic.



Reaver's Refuge: Remove the gems requirement for SoS: Run once EtK/Prey/Monastery for flag, and be always flagged. Add a 3rd completion reward list with the full list of runes for all 4 quests. Allow us to buy Dragontouched Armor right off the bat.

I never saw the point in the gems, but they bug me a lot less than the fact we need to reflag (or have a bag of stones saved up) every time we want to run SoS.

You can by DT armor after one raid run if I recall correctly so I don't see the issue there. It would however be a godsend if the runes were BtA.


Devils of Shavarath: Remove the Trophies of War requirement to add Incredible Potential on ToD rings. Remove all ToD rings and turn them into a generic one with a random +6 stat (except constitution), a random +1 exceptional stat (so, 30 possible rings instead of actual 32), Incredible Potential, and a empty slot of "prestige class". Add an arcanaloth that allow you to use some trophies (9?) to add to the ring a prestige set bonus. Old rings stay as is, as legacy items.

This seems to be adding complexity and removing flavor without solving anything. I don't think so.


Every Raid: If the raid is 2 years old or more, reduce their 20th reward list to a 10th completion reward list. If the raid is 4 years old or more, reduce it to a 5th completion reward list.

I like the idea behind this but would suggest the current list be moved to 10 completions and at 20 a FULL list of items be made available (and the pattern repeats for 30 and 40)


Every Eberron epic quest: Remove the Scroll/Seal/Shard combo. Allow us to trade them for an epic token (Epic Raid Token for Chrono/Sands/VoN shards), so we don't waste everything we farmed thus far. Instead of dropping seal/shards on chests, drop the completed epic items.
Opinions?

I HATE the old epic raid system, but you might be going a tad far. I think the problem would be resolved if each raid had a single associated seal (and drop the rest) so that for EVon you might have a "seal of Velah" and that would be all you would need to initiate the upgrade of the base item (similar to how the, and I know its not epic, Stormreaver seals work for GH raid items or how the wartrophies let you upgrade the ToD rings). You could even make some items require more seals if you wanted to establish relative rarity/value. (eg - ESoS might need 5 seals but Ehammer of life would need 1)

[pyntsized]

/signed to everything but the vale idea and the epic quest idea.
if anything to change vale, add a small chance (25% or so) that any ingredient drop is a refined (taper, ore etc for in vale and imbued shards etc for shroud)
and the devs can't say they can't do this because this is the exact same mechanic as the tome vs. Tome upgrades
for epic quests, I agree that they should just have a trade-in or a "one-seal-fits-all" deal. Then you put some in the epic altar and POOF! You have acquired the seal of the sword of shadow or whatever. Shards should be either tradeable (to a vendor) for different ones at 2 or 3:1.

[Uska]

dont like the vale idea or the epic thing but the rest isn't bad

[Kinerd]

I agree and disagree to varying degrees with the specific proposals, but the theory is sound and well worth endorsing.

[nibel]

I don't like this one. I could see it actually being more grindy in some ways as you'd need the right refined ingredients (and some are more used than others). The ingredients are also cheap on the AH, I see no reason to change this mechanic.


if anything to change vale, add a small chance (25% or so) that any ingredient drop is a refined (taper, ore etc for in vale and imbued shards etc for shroud)
and the devs can't say they can't do this because this is the exact same mechanic as the tome vs. Tome upgrades

Just to add some math why the proposed change to Shroud.

Right now, Greensteel is no more Endgame gear. Maybe Conc Opp, but not even the 45 HP item is a "must have" as it was when the cap was 20. Thus, Shroud qualify to my condition of "was top once, not anymore".

Regarding to the vale quests: There are 6 droppable ingredients between the 5 quests and the wilderness zone. Each one can drop 2 ingredients. You need 4 ingredients to craft a single refined ingredient. There is a total of 11 refined ingredients (Filament, Ore, Red/Blue/Green/Yellow/Violet Taper, and Woundrous Scarab/Jewel/Oil/Balm).

If we divide those as 4 possible drops per quest (40% chance for a specific Taper type, 40% chance for a specific Woundrous type, 10% chance for Ore, 10% chance for Filament) - (Except a single quest that will have 40% taper, 30% ore, 30% filament), and the wilderness becomes a incognita type (any ingredient can drop with equal chances), it is probable that when you get flagged for Shroud, you have the ingredients to craft one greensteel item.

Right now, when you finish flagging for Shroud, you have the bare minimum of 5/12 items required for your first greensteel. If you run every single quest two more times, you have 15 ingredients, but there is no guarantee that you can already craft something, since you can get some duplicate ingredients.

Regarding Shroud: Same logic apply. There are 2 chests with small ingredients, 2 with medium, and 2 with larges (3 on hard, 4 on elite) per run. You need a bare minimum of 12 ingredients per tier of Greensteel. In the best-case scenario, ignoring free ingredients passed your way, you need 6 raid runs. That is 15 days, if you run it once every three days (remember, new players might not want to burn raid timer bypasses on an outdated raid).

Since the tiers are exactly the same, changing only the names for small/medium/large, and the chests are about the same too (elite have 4 chests for larges, but on tier 3 you can craft doubleshards, that equires double larges, so...), lets compare raw vs. refined.

There are 6 raw ingredients: Scale, Stone, Arrowhead, Shrapnel, Chain and Bone. There are 11 refined ingredients (fire, water, earth, air, positive, negative, dominion, opposition, escalation, ethereal and material). You need 4 raw ingredients to make a refined ingredient.

At best, after 2 raid runs, you can craft one refined ingredient. In my proposed change, if you are lucky, after 2 runs, you can craft a single shard tier 3 greensteel.

Sure, some refined ingredients will be more useful than others (positive, air, earth, escalation), but so is the raw ingredients (people pay more for scales than bones). All-in-all, I think there will be a balance there.

Also, adding everything together, you might even think about crafting some subpar GS "for fun" if you have extra ingredients and nothing to do with them, like the old guard builds.

(This reminded me of adding to the list "Remove Taint of Shavarath from greensteel")

[Drekisen]

There is a reason why every endgame quests/raids are grindy. The devs need something to keep people busy while they work on the next adventure pack.

However, once the game move on, and the old content is not top stuff anymore (and in some cases, not even desirable). Many people still run the old content for sentimental reason, or just to see how the old quests are. But since many of them have an inherent grind associated with them, they might experiment the quest, but is not really close to experiment everything the old quests have.

Those suggestions are focused specifically on old quests, that were top stuff once, but are now on the "dont bother" category.

Restless Isles: Remove the requirement to run Hiding in Plain Sight to reach the area. I know there are way to bypass it with greater teleport and airship navigators, but cutting the middleman is always good.

Necropolis 4: Drop the Sigils. Require us to complete all four Necro 4 quests to access Litanny. Add a way for us to flag for the raid in a single run if we wish to (like Tor dragons).

Vale of Twilight: Stop dropping raw ingredients. Start dropping refined ingredients (Ore, Taper, etc on quests; Essences, Focus, Gem on Shroud). Raw ingredients can still be used, just don't drop anymore. Remove "Taint of Shavarath" from non-weapon greensteel.

Reaver's Refuge: Remove the gems requirement for SoS: Run once EtK/Prey/Monastery for flag, and be always flagged. Add a 3rd completion reward list with the full list of runes for all 4 quests. Allow us to buy Dragontouched Armor right off the bat.

Devils of Shavarath: Remove the Trophies of War requirement to add Incredible Potential on ToD rings. Remove all ToD rings and turn them into a generic one with a random +6 stat (except constitution), a random +1 exceptional stat (so, 30 possible rings instead of actual 32), Incredible Potential, and a empty slot of "prestige class". Add an arcanaloth that allow you to use some trophies (9?) to add to the ring a prestige set bonus. Old rings stay as is, as legacy items.

Every Raid: If the raid is 2 years old or more, reduce their 20th reward list to a 10th completion reward list. If the raid is 4 years old or more, reduce it to a 5th completion reward list.

Every Eberron epic quest: Remove the Scroll/Seal/Shard combo. Allow us to trade them for an epic token (Epic Raid Token for Chrono/Sands/VoN shards), so we don't waste everything we farmed thus far. Instead of dropping seal/shards on chests, drop the completed epic items.

Opinions?

OPINIONS...what freekin OPINIONS.....u're a freekin genius!

/signed in quintuplicate...no sarcasm!


Make it so :D

[Hordo]

There is a reason why every endgame quests/raids are grindy. The devs need something to keep people busy while they work on the next adventure pack.

However, once the game move on, and the old content is not top stuff anymore (and in some cases, not even desirable). Many people still run the old content for sentimental reason, or just to see how the old quests are. But since many of them have an inherent grind associated with them, they might experiment the quest, but is not really close to experiment everything the old quests have.

Those suggestions are focused specifically on old quests, that were top stuff once, but are now on the "dont bother" category.

Restless Isles: Remove the requirement to run Hiding in Plain Sight to reach the area. I know there are way to bypass it with greater teleport and airship navigators, but cutting the middleman is always good.

Necropolis 4: Drop the Sigils. Require us to complete all four Necro 4 quests to access Litanny. Add a way for us to flag for the raid in a single run if we wish to (like Tor dragons).

Vale of Twilight: Stop dropping raw ingredients. Start dropping refined ingredients (Ore, Taper, etc on quests; Essences, Focus, Gem on Shroud). Raw ingredients can still be used, just don't drop anymore. Remove "Taint of Shavarath" from non-weapon greensteel.

Reaver's Refuge: Remove the gems requirement for SoS: Run once EtK/Prey/Monastery for flag, and be always flagged. Add a 3rd completion reward list with the full list of runes for all 4 quests. Allow us to buy Dragontouched Armor right off the bat.

Devils of Shavarath: Remove the Trophies of War requirement to add Incredible Potential on ToD rings. Remove all ToD rings and turn them into a generic one with a random +6 stat (except constitution), a random +1 exceptional stat (so, 30 possible rings instead of actual 32), Incredible Potential, and a empty slot of "prestige class". Add an arcanaloth that allow you to use some trophies (9?) to add to the ring a prestige set bonus. Old rings stay as is, as legacy items.

Every Raid: If the raid is 2 years old or more, reduce their 20th reward list to a 10th completion reward list. If the raid is 4 years old or more, reduce it to a 5th completion reward list.

Every Eberron epic quest: Remove the Scroll/Seal/Shard combo. Allow us to trade them for an epic token (Epic Raid Token for Chrono/Sands/VoN shards), so we don't waste everything we farmed thus far. Instead of dropping seal/shards on chests, drop the completed epic items.

Opinions?

I like it.

/signed except for the Epic stuff

[katz]

There is a reason why every endgame quests/raids are grindy. The devs need something to keep people busy while they work on the next adventure pack.

However, once the game move on, and the old content is not top stuff anymore (and in some cases, not even desirable). Many people still run the old content for sentimental reason, or just to see how the old quests are. But since many of them have an inherent grind associated with them, they might experiment the quest, but is not really close to experiment everything the old quests have.

Those suggestions are focused specifically on old quests, that were top stuff once, but are now on the "dont bother" category.

Restless Isles: Remove the requirement to run Hiding in Plain Sight to reach the area. I know there are way to bypass it with greater teleport and airship navigators, but cutting the middleman is always good. sounds good to me

Necropolis 4: Drop the Sigils. Require us to complete all four Necro 4 quests to access Litanny. Add a way for us to flag for the raid in a single run if we wish to (like Tor dragons).again, sounds good

Vale of Twilight: Stop dropping raw ingredients. Start dropping refined ingredients (Ore, Taper, etc on quests; Essences, Focus, Gem on Shroud). Raw ingredients can still be used, just don't drop anymore. Remove "Taint of Shavarath" from non-weapon greensteel. not so sure about this. the weapons may not be 'end game' anymore, but there are still some darn useful things that can be made here and nowhere else.

Reaver's Refuge: Remove the gems requirement for SoS: Run once EtK/Prey/Monastery for flag, and be always flagged. Add a 3rd completion reward list with the full list of runes for all 4 quests. Allow us to buy Dragontouched Armor right off the bat. YES PLEASE.

Devils of Shavarath: Remove the Trophies of War requirement to add Incredible Potential on ToD rings. Remove all ToD rings and turn them into a generic one with a random +6 stat (except constitution), a random +1 exceptional stat (so, 30 possible rings instead of actual 32), Incredible Potential, and a empty slot of "prestige class". Add an arcanaloth that allow you to use some trophies (9?) to add to the ring a prestige set bonus. Old rings stay as is, as legacy items. interesting concept. i think i like it.

Every Raid: If the raid is 2 years old or more, reduce their 20th reward list to a 10th completion reward list. If the raid is 4 years old or more, reduce it to a 5th completion reward list. yes

Every Eberron epic quest: Remove the Scroll/Seal/Shard combo. Allow us to trade them for an epic token (Epic Raid Token for Chrono/Sands/VoN shards), so we don't waste everything we farmed thus far. Instead of dropping seal/shards on chests, drop the completed epic items. ehhh. not sure. i think old epic items should get a work-over, especially for the ridiculously hard to complete ones like sands, but...

Opinions?


in yellow

[nibel]

This seems to be adding complexity and removing flavor without solving anything. I don't think so.

There is two reasons to search for a specific ToD ring right now:

-You want to complete a set bonus
-You want the specific stat boosts

On the first case, my suggestion is a straigth drop on grind. You need X trophies, a random ring, and you can start dealing extra damage with your ravager set all you want (or anything equivalent).

On the second case, you have more or less the same chances you had before (30 randomly generated option vs 32 named rings), plus the benefit of getting some combinations that did not exist before (like Int/Con, Wis/Wis or Cha/Cha ring).

Technically, there is a third option: You want the set and the same specific bonus of the set. Then, this fall into the lower denominator scenario, and is the same as "looking for the specific combination".

Lore-wise, that is more dependent on what the devs could find out to justify the set bonus than me. If well-made, this can be interesting, like the arcanaloth looking at your "true self" or something like this, and asking to imbue the ring with a part of your soul or so.

[Standal]

I think most of your concerns regarding grind could be alleviated by changing drop rates. For Shroud raw materials, instead of a 50% chance of each mat just guarantee both mats every time you run the quest. Leave Shroud alone, it's still possibly the most important raid in the game. The usefulness of the items for TRing and starting epic level questing pretty much guarantee Shroud will still be run for a while.

For Tod rings, guarantee a full list of rings every 20 completions. Same for all other item raids.

For Epic crafting, I'd be in favor of a 3:1 exchange for all epic ingredients by type and pack. If that can't easily be coded, I'd be fine with just needing 3 phiarlan shards, 3 phialan seals, and 3 phiarlan scrolls to make an EAG for instance.

I'm fine with flagging for a raid/quest, but it should be one and done per character life like Shroud. I also don't like the new MOTU chain of chains. Start any chain at any time, even if you can't run the end quest/raid until flagged.

[Certon]

Aaaaand....

/signed.

=)

[nibel]

I think most of your concerns regarding grind could be alleviated by changing drop rates.

No. The vale proposed changes would, at least, reduce the grind to 1/3 of what is now (farming 3 ingredients instead of 12). The Epic proposed changes would reduce it to 1/4 (one pull instead of base + seal + shard + scroll), and the ToD proposed changes would keep the lottery the same for stat combinations, and turn the set lottery into a guaranteed "drop" after 9 runs (or less if running hard/elite).

Now, for everyone talking about the Epic changes, I would like more insight. I mean, Feather said already that he will not try to update old epic items because old loot is old loot. Excluding a few pieces that are still top game (SoS, AGA, eMG...), no one is exactly excited for completing the set for, lets say, an epic Phiarlan Spy Dagger. How bad would be for people just looting that dagger from the epic chest on Partycrashers?

I'm talking on the eyes of someone new to epics that don't have six bags full of useless seal/shards. A new player go there and loot an epic named dagger. How is that bad, since you can do the same running Portal Opens for the Blade of the High Priestess (that is better than the Spy Dagger)?

[CaptainSpacePony]

...since you can do the same running Impossible Demands for the Blade of the High Priestess (that is better than the Spy Dagger)?

Technically it's the Sacrificial Dagger, and it is also much better than the Spy Dagger.

/end sidetrack

[Allorian]

The old raids and quests defintley need a face lift when it comes to crafting, this is a good idea as any I have seen!



Thx
Glam, Choh, Juggernautte, Allorian, BammmBammm, Bubbahhottep and Slliimm.

[Zorth]

No.

This is just an easy button.

All Your ideas destroy the Lore of this game and story line(s) as well.

Not good.

There is a reason why this game is number one.

It brings fun to new timers and they/we like to overcome obstacles and it gives a sense of accomplishment.

In order to have more than one Greensteal Item we need to run 21 Shrouds per item. The fact that you want this erased is an insult! Sir!

[Drekisen]

Actually I find having to do the same quest mutiple times destroys it.........a quest is supposed to be an epic journey into the unknown.......not a repeat XP depot :p

[Chai]

I doubt that 20th list will be reduced to 10th and 5th as there are timer bypass in the store, and people will buy more of them if they leave it at 20th.

My suggestion BEFORE the timer bypass being put into the store was to make the timers on older content ~1 day instead of ~3. This would mean a 20 completion run takes 20 days for someone who religiously runs it once per day. This will likely not happen now because it might also cause less sales of timer bypass.

[nibel]

All Your ideas destroy the Lore of this game and story line(s) as well.

I want to know what is the lore behind the seal/shard/scroll mechanic. Or the 20th reward lists. Or the sigil on Necro 4 (I know we need to get the abbot's underlings to help you, but you do that running the quests).

[Chai]

I'm talking on the eyes of someone new to epics that don't have six bags full of useless seal/shards. A new player go there and loot an epic named dagger. How is that bad, since you can do the same running Portal Opens for the Blade of the High Priestess (that is better than the Spy Dagger)?

So the eSOS would just drop in eVON as an epic weapon? Well, there is one way to crank out more sales of raid bypass in the short term anyhow. :p

[kierg10]

There is a reason why every endgame quests/raids are grindy. The devs need something to keep people busy while they work on the next adventure pack.

However, once the game move on, and the old content is not top stuff anymore (and in some cases, not even desirable). Many people still run the old content for sentimental reason, or just to see how the old quests are. But since many of them have an inherent grind associated with them, they might experiment the quest, but is not really close to experiment everything the old quests have.

Those suggestions are focused specifically on old quests, that were top stuff once, but are now on the "dont bother" category.

Restless Isles: Remove the requirement to run Hiding in Plain Sight to reach the area. I know there are way to bypass it with greater teleport and airship navigators, but cutting the middleman is always good.

Necropolis 4: Drop the Sigils. Require us to complete all four Necro 4 quests to access Litanny. Add a way for us to flag for the raid in a single run if we wish to (like Tor dragons).

Vale of Twilight: Stop dropping raw ingredients. Start dropping refined ingredients (Ore, Taper, etc on quests; Essences, Focus, Gem on Shroud). Raw ingredients can still be used, just don't drop anymore. Remove "Taint of Shavarath" from non-weapon greensteel.

Reaver's Refuge: Remove the gems requirement for SoS: Run once EtK/Prey/Monastery for flag, and be always flagged. Add a 3rd completion reward list with the full list of runes for all 4 quests. Allow us to buy Dragontouched Armor right off the bat.

Devils of Shavarath: Remove the Trophies of War requirement to add Incredible Potential on ToD rings. Remove all ToD rings and turn them into a generic one with a random +6 stat (except constitution), a random +1 exceptional stat (so, 30 possible rings instead of actual 32), Incredible Potential, and a empty slot of "prestige class". Add an arcanaloth that allow you to use some trophies (9?) to add to the ring a prestige set bonus. Old rings stay as is, as legacy items.

Every Raid: If the raid is 2 years old or more, reduce their 20th reward list to a 10th completion reward list. If the raid is 4 years old or more, reduce it to a 5th completion reward list.

Every Eberron epic quest: Remove the Scroll/Seal/Shard combo. Allow us to trade them for an epic token (Epic Raid Token for Chrono/Sands/VoN shards), so we don't waste everything we farmed thus far. Instead of dropping seal/shards on chests, drop the completed epic items.

Opinions?

yes to everything but the epic idea, just make an epic trade in....

[sirgog]

/signed to the spirit of the suggestions.

It was a great thing when these suggestions were implemented for Orchard quests, Wiz-King and OOB items (for some reason Chains of Flame was missed but it has no good items anyway) and Gianthold Tor scales and relics for entry.

The middle level grinds of note, IMO, are the following:

- Shroud cleansers (I'd have added just getting the mats, but the U12 changes to Shroud drop rates fixed that, as has the removal of timers from Epic Devil Assault)
- 20th rewards from old raids in general (other than Abbot which remains entertaining at 25). For raids that are auto-win (Reaver in particular) a full list on 10th runs is called for IMO.
- 200 tier 1 LOB/MA binding fragments (the fix here is to add tier 1 drops to higher difficulties).

I'd have added Shroud blank construction but two things have changed that - TRs grinding the Vale for XP (then they sell their mats cheap on the AH) and also people taking them as end rewards a lot. The U12 changes to Shroud end rewards caused Twigs and Funk to drop from 100k PP to 20k PP on my server.

I would not call the TOD incredible potential a grind. Not at nine trophies, and certainly not on an established server where often a new player will have their nine on the first or second run if they get a ring.

As for old epics - some are a grind, others are not. There is a big difference between Carnival items and Desert/Spinner of Shadows items. Bring the latter up to the former, leave the former where it is IMO.

[nibel]

U17 gave us a LOT more of random gear and revamped named gear that made old raid gear even more useless. So, let me bump this thread.

[Eilierie]

There is a reason why every endgame quests/raids are grindy. The devs need something to keep people busy while they work on the next adventure pack.

However, once the game move on, and the old content is not top stuff anymore (and in some cases, not even desirable). Many people still run the old content for sentimental reason, or just to see how the old quests are. But since many of them have an inherent grind associated with them, they might experiment the quest, but is not really close to experiment everything the old quests have.

Those suggestions are focused specifically on old quests, that were top stuff once, but are now on the "dont bother" category.

Restless Isles: Remove the requirement to run Hiding in Plain Sight to reach the area. I know there are way to bypass it with greater teleport and airship navigators, but cutting the middleman is always good. No

Necropolis 4: Drop the Sigils. Require us to complete all four Necro 4 quests to access Litanny. Add a way for us to flag for the raid in a single run if we wish to (like Tor dragons). Yes

Vale of Twilight: Stop dropping raw ingredients. Start dropping refined ingredients (Ore, Taper, etc on quests; Essences, Focus, Gem on Shroud). Raw ingredients can still be used, just don't drop anymore. Remove "Taint of Shavarath" from non-weapon greensteel. Detailed explanations at . No

Reaver's Refuge: Remove the gems requirement for SoS: Run once EtK/Prey/Monastery for flag, and be always flagged. Add a 3rd completion reward list with the full list of runes for all 4 quests. Allow us to buy Dragontouched Armor right off the bat. Yes

Devils of Shavarath: Remove the Trophies of War requirement to add Incredible Potential on ToD rings. Remove all ToD rings and turn them into a generic one with a random +6 stat (except constitution), a random +1 exceptional stat (so, 30 possible rings instead of actual 32), Incredible Potential, and a empty slot of "prestige class". Add an arcanaloth that allow you to use some trophies (9?) to add to the ring a prestige set bonus. Old rings stay as is, as legacy items. (Detailed explanations of this change at [url=http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4820081&postcount=11]post #11 (]post #7[/url)) No

Every Raid: If the raid is 2 years old or more, reduce their 20th reward list to a 10th completion reward list. If the raid is 4 years old or more, reduce it to a 5th completion reward list. No

Every Eberron epic quest: Remove the Scroll/Seal/Shard combo. Allow us to trade them for an epic token (Epic Raid Token for Chrono/Sands/VoN shards), so we don't waste everything we farmed thus far. Instead of dropping seal/shards on chests, drop the completed epic items.Yes

Opinions?

/signed answers in yellow

[NytCrawlr]

Agreed with the spirit of the post and mostly for all of the suggestions.


As for old epics - some are a grind, others are not. There is a big difference between Carnival items and Desert/Spinner of Shadows items. Bring the latter up to the former, leave the former where it is IMO.

This would help legacy epics a lot. There are a lot of items from the desert that I like, and I just can't get myself in the mood to start the grind of futility for any of them.

I still think a 3:1, or something similar, turn-in is also needed as well overall.

I am sincerely hoping that Feather's recent loot upgrade is just the beginning and that there are plans to go through it all, up until maybe U14. Others have mentioned this idea as well, and I think it is a sound one, but allow the old legacy epics to drop completed, even at a low drop rate, would be nice as well, maybe even create EH and EE versions of the items that already exist and making them the EN versions.

Overall there is a lot of older loot out there that I wouldn't mind having, but most of the grind involved creates reluctance to go after it.

[parowan]

Enthusiastically /signed for the Necro4 and Reaver's Fate suggestions.

Having to grind for loot is acceptable. Having to flag for raids is acceptable. But having to grind flagging quests for flagging loot is unacceptable. Just let me run the quests once to flag and then let me raid.

That's the first priority. Beyond that I agree that old content could also benefit from some reduction in loot grinding. If you want to take it slow then simply give a complete list of items on 20th completions. As a second step, raids with a base lvl of 10 should have a timer of 1 day. Raids with base lvl 11-20 should have a timer of 2 days. 21+ keep at 3 days.