Multiclass Prestige Classes

[HatsuharuZ]

Currently in DDO, it is generally a bad idea to multiclass when playing as a caster. To solve this problem and make multiclassing as a caster more viable, I suggest adding prestige classes which can be unlocked by taking levels in two classes. Taking class levels in one of these prestige classes would provide the some, but not all of the benefits of taking more levels in both classes.

For example, The "Arcane Trickster" prestige class could be unlocked by taking levels in rogue and wizard. AT would give you arcane caster levels, but you would not gain wizard bonus feats, and you would gain spell slots and sneak attack damage at a lower rate. Additionally, AT would allow the user to add sneak attack damage to their ray spells.

Also, it seems to me that it would be alot easier to balance prestige classes instead of doing multiclass prestige enhancement trees. No need to bother with level gating and making more PrE trees, just make it so that taking a certain number of levels in the prestige class count as taking a level in both of the base classes for the purposes of the base class PrE trees.

[Charononus]

Not signed, there are plenty of caster multi classes, wiz/rogue wiz/monk Druid/monk fvs/monk and clonks are common and plenty powerful. Not every multi works nor should it.

[Failedlegend]

Definitely /signed except for the part about making them actual classes you have to take levels in

Note: This system is devised with the currently proposed new enhancement system in mind but can easily be adjusted to w/e the new system post feedback is.

What I'm proposing is slightly different, Hybrid PrEs that require both a minimum character Lvl and minimum level from each class related to the Hybrid PrE which would take aspects from each class and enhance them uding the theme/abilities of the PrE.

ie. A Cleric12/Monk6/Fighter2 could take Radiant Servant/Shintao Monk/Sacred Fist and with the bonuses from Sacred first they would do extra light damage on unarmed attacks, their fists of light and radiant aura would be enhanced either through positive spellpower or personal heal amp. Would allow for Monk Wis to AC in light armor that kind of stuff...of course it would be NO WHERE near what a 20 cleric or 20 monk could do in their respective specialties but the sacred fist is the best in his own way

Anyways using Swiftblade (and using the Tempest Template) I'll show you what I mean

The Requirements:

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane8/Martial8 CL 20

Note: This means a Arcane18/Martial2 would only have access to tier 2

The "Free Bonuses"

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +5% To-Hit & Reflex Save, 3% Dodge
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer (this effect is applied before Extend)
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +10% To-Hit & Reflex Save, 6% Dodge, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +20% To-Hit & Reflex Save, 10% Dodge, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

The PrE Tree itself would likely have a bunch of movement related things like increased run speed, immunity to knockdown, freedom of movement, balance, jump, tumble, Full BAB,etc...some of which would only apply while hasted.

Here's a few Hybrids I thought would be cool for various reasons. (Outside of the new system it could be purely class based)


A Few Possible "Hybrid" PrEs

Swiftblade: Any Arcane + Martial (Note: Alot of SB abilities require "Haste" to function)

Pirate Captain: Warchanter + Purple Dragon Knight

Sacred Fist: Cleric + Monk

Arcane Trickster: Rogue Mechanic + Wizard

Eldritch Knight: Arcane + Martial (maybe limited to Elves)

Daggerspell Mage: Rogue Assassin + Wizard

Bone Knight: Palemaster + Divine

?????: Arty Master Maker + Rogue Mechanic (This just NEEDS a Hybrid PrE...it just feels right.)

Fist of the Forest: Druid + Monk

[bigolbear]

/signed to the principle of multiclass freindly prestiges.

Ive talked a fair bit about this subject in the enhancement pass thread.

What I came up with there was the concept of floating trees. (sounds werid huh)

The devs are lookign to re do all the enhancemnts soon(tm). They are proposing a 3 tree system. eg rogue will have an assassin tree, an acrobat tree and a mechanic tree. The trees will look similar to epic desinies - moving to 5 tiers too from what i understand.

What Im suggesting is 'floating trees' for other prestiges. For example. (this is just an example so you can see what im getting at, numbers are probly way off)

Arcane knight - prestige.
requires: feat any martial weapon proficiency, any of(wizard lvl 6, sorc lvl 6, bard lvl 6, arti lvl 6).

tier 1 abilities:
arcane strike - cost 5 sp, mele attac deals half caster lvl d6 additional force damage,
+fort save
+to hit
+spell power - dropdown for type.
(auto grant - +1 to hit)

tier 2:
arcane armour - ASF reduction for light armour + sheilds.
+ prr
+ to damage in mele.
+ spell power crit - drop down for type.
(auto grant - improved sheild spell)

tier 3:
arcane armour 2 - ASF reduction for medium armour + sheilds.
+ damage to helpless mobs.
aracne weapon focus - use highest of int/cha for to hit.
+ spell power crit multiplier
practiced spell caster + caster lvl, may not exceed total lvl.
(auto grant - improved mage armour)

tier 4:
arcane armour 3 - ASF reduction for heavy + tower.
arcane weapon spec - use highest of int/cha for damage.
aracne edge - spell power applies to weapon effects - eg flaming.(metamagics do not)
SLA haste.
(auto grant - your bab is now set to your caster lvl if your caster lvl is higher)

tier 5:
arcane burst - your weapons gain 1 of force/flaming/ice/acid/shock burst.
SLA tensers.
SLA greater false life - gain temp hp costs mana.
(auto grant, kinetic transformation - ie torc ability)


Some of the proposed trees for prestiges would actualy work far better as floating multiclass oriented trees - warpreist, warchanter, arcane archer....

[bigolbear]

@ failed legend, were thinking along similar lines as usual man ;)

The only thing I would say is rather than require multiclassing these trees should simply offer options if you do - much like warchanter curently does in giving you an extra rage if you have barb lvls, and not at all like arcane archer does in penalising your spell casting.

So rather than require X lvls of one class and X lvls of another its better to do things like.

Requires:
feats XYZ, requires (arcane/divine/wilderness) caster lvl X.

In many cases the easiest way to get access will be to multiclass, especialy in the case where the feats required are things like weapon proficencies. The trees could alos offer benefits to those deeply splashed - eg

weapon mastey (requires weapon spec ) +x damage could go hapily into warchanter, war preist, arcane knight etc etc.

[Failedlegend]

@B.O.B.

The only issue I see with your proposal is it allows single-classes to partake (ie, Your Arcane knight example could be obtained by a Lvl 20 Wizard,Bard,etc. simply by using a feat to have proficiency in a martial weapon) which defeats the purpose.

Also note that there's actually 6 tiers and a capstone in the proposed system...3,6,9,12,15,18 & 20 IIRC

[HatsuharuZ]

Definitely /signed except for the part about making them actual classes you have to take levels in



Why not?

[Failedlegend]

Why not?

1. because thats not have prestige classes work in ddo and IMO the way DDO handles prestige classes IOW as "templates" (similar to 4e) not just a new class is much superior although I would not be against decoupling them from class...make it feats, skills, stats,etc. that unlock prestige enhancements...would be harder to balance though. Either way works for me

2. there's a limit of 3 classes in ddo making prestiges actual classes would punish multi-classes who want to take them

3. normal single class prestige's don't have to do this

4. there's no reason to unless your a purist...which is frankly hard to believe as I've NEVER seen an established group that plays without their own set of preferred rules

[HatsuharuZ]

1. because thats not have prestige classes work in ddo and IMO the way DDO handles prestige classes IOW as "templates" (similar to 4e) not just a new class is much superior although I would not be against decoupling them from class...make it feats, skills, stats,etc. that unlock prestige enhancements...would be harder to balance though. Either way works for me

2. there's a limit of 3 classes in ddo making prestiges actual classes would punish multi-classes who want to take them

3. normal single class prestige's don't have to do this

4. there's no reason to unless your a purist...which is frankly hard to believe as I've NEVER seen an established group that plays without their own set of preferred rules

1) I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.

2) It's not punishing anyone, it's simply another choice.

3) We don't need prestige classes for single class characters since PrEs exist.

4) I've never played the tabletop game. And as I stated above, a multiclass prestige class could have some but not all of the benefits from both of the base classes. That's a reason to have them.

[Failedlegend]

3) We don't need prestige classes for single class characters since PrEs exist.


Yes I know so why not make multiclass PrEs why punish muticlasses by forcing them to lose class levels when single class builds do not have to do so

[HatsuharuZ]

Yes I know so why not make multiclass PrEs why punish muticlasses by forcing them to lose class levels when single class builds do not have to do so

That is a good point. But how hard would it be to program it so that, for example, two class levels in the prestige class equals one level in both of the base classes for the purposes of level gating in the PrE trees.

Also, the "free bonuses" in your Swiftblade example could be made into class feats. The difference between an enhancement and a feat is how and when your character recieves it.

[Failedlegend]

That is a good point. But how hard would it be to program it so that, for example, two class levels in the prestige class equals one level in both of the base classes for the purposes of level gating in the PrE trees.I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard...but again I ask...Why? what advantage is there to doing this



Also, the "free bonuses" in your Swiftblade example could be made into class feats. The difference between an enhancement and a feat is how and when your character recieves it.

Ummm...yes I'm sure the could be feats...so could alot of stuff...you also make wizard spells feats...again I'm forced to ask...why?

[HatsuharuZ]

I thought that prestige classes would be easier and quicker to impliment and balance than PrE trees. That's all.

[Artos_Fabril]

I thought that prestige classes would be easier and quicker to impliment and balance than PrE trees. That's all.
One of the stated goals of the new enhancement system that Failedlegend built off of for the PrE idea he posted was that it would make new PrEs easier to implement.

We've already seen, via Epic Destinies, that things like +caster levels can be tied to an auto-grant. The new enhancement pass as described looks a great deal like the ED system, and probably uses a lot of the same code.

As an aside: FL, I still disagree with your level splits for the PrE tiers. If pure 20 is required for a single class capstone, a dual-class capstone should require a "pure" 10/10 split, 8/8/4 or 10/8/2 should not get you an MC-capstone when a 19/1 split won't get you a pure-class capstone.

[Failedlegend]

\
As an aside: FL, I still disagree with your level splits for the PrE tiers. If pure 20 is required for a single class capstone, a dual-class capstone should require a "pure" 10/10 split, 8/8/4 or 10/8/2 should not get you an MC-capstone when a 19/1 split won't get you a pure-class capstone.

I'm open to the Class level requirements to be changed and it does make sense for the capstone to be 10/10 I'll roll with it...I just wish the devs would share their thoughts and the various suggestions made by the community...this enhancement change is HUGE and its result could destroy this game.

[Artos_Fabril]

I'm open to the Class level requirements to be changed and it does make sense for the capstone to be 10/10 I'll roll with it...I just wish the devs would share their thoughts and the various suggestions made by the community...this enhancement change is HUGE and its result could destroy this game.
Yeah, right now we're really relying on the proposed new enhancement system not being an NGE scale fiasco.