Virtu vs warchanter?

[Bolo_Grubb]

Currently my Bard is a 1 time TR 18 Bard/2 rogue warchanter build.

I am wondering if he might be a bit more useful to both groups and solo if he was a virt instead? I can make the change with just resetting the enhancements. I do not plan on TRing this toon again.

Here is his current build as a warchanter


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

DJTR
Level 20 True Neutral Halfling Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Bard)
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 616
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 19
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 21
Dexterity 11 15
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 16 18
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 13 17

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 6
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 6
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 6
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 6
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 6
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 6
Bluff 1 4
Concentration 2 3
Diplomacy 1 3
Disable Device 7 27
Haggle 5 7
Heal -1 0
Hide 4 10
Intimidate 1 7
Jump 6 12
Listen -1 2
Move Silently 4 8
Open Lock 4 25
Perform n/a 30
Repair 3 4
Search 7 27
Spot 3 23
Swim 2 5
Tumble 4 6
Use Magic Device 5 26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 16 (Bard)


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter II
Enhancement: Greatsword Training
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion I
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion II
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Perform I
Enhancement: Improved Perform II
Enhancement: Improved Perform III
Enhancement: Improved Perform IV
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II




and here is what I would change to make him a virt


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

DJTR-virt
Level 20 True Neutral Halfling Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Bard)
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 616
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 19
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 21
Dexterity 11 15
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 16 18
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 13 17

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 6
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 6
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 6
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 6
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 6
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 6
Bluff 1 4
Concentration 2 3
Diplomacy 1 7
Disable Device 7 27
Haggle 5 7
Heal -1 0
Hide 4 10
Intimidate 1 3
Jump 6 12
Listen -1 6
Move Silently 4 8
Open Lock 4 25
Perform n/a 34
Repair 3 4
Search 7 27
Spot 3 23
Swim 2 5
Tumble 4 6
Use Magic Device 5 26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 16 (Bard)


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song IV
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Virtuoso I
Enhancement: Bard Virtuoso II
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Perform I
Enhancement: Improved Perform II
Enhancement: Improved Perform III
Enhancement: Improved Perform IV
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II




any suggestions? Thoughts? Advice?

[marinerfan]

Depends what you want out of the build, really. I have a virtuoso and usually when groups realize it they're kind of like "aww man..why aren't you warchanter or spellsinger?" but then we get rolling through the quest and they change their tune to "hey, virtuosos are actually kind of useful".

Virtuosos are really great "puppet masters" if you can slot a good spell penetration item for Otto's irresistable - between that, song of capering, and the tier I version of fascinate virts get, you can do a lot of crowd control very easily and very cheaply (esp since songs regen quickly for virts..I use songs heavily and never run out).

I think (correct me if i'm wrong) warchanters have the superior buffs, but virtuosos have the superior crowd control so that's what you have to choose between. One important note is that the virtuoso healing song (which isn't so good) over-rides a spellsinger's sp regeneration song which can be really frustrating for the divine whose sp stops regenerating and the spellsinger who keeps having to burn songs which won't work until the hp song timer runs out.

[Tuney]

Marinerfan is correct. The basic idea behind Virt is 'Battlefield control' while Warchanter and Spell singer are about giving buffs to the group. They have early/easier access to Song of the dead and the maker which helps give to the 'control.'

Only downside... people who use AoE's or attack with wild abandon which can happen easily in combat hehe

You can build a virt almost exactly like a Warchanter , just won't have the warchanter buffs if you like to melee or feel like you want to change it out later.

[Anthios888]

OP, I'm not sure what you mean by "a bit more useful to . . . groups." What are you looking for?


Marinerfan is correct. The basic idea behind Virt is 'Battlefield control' while Warchanter and Spell singer are about giving buffs to the group.

You can build a virt almost exactly like a Warchanter , just won't have the warchanter buffs if you like to melee or feel like you want to change it out later.

Likewise, you can build a warchanter or spellsinger exactly like a virtuoso.

Music of the Makers, Music of the Dead, Fascinate, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Siren's Song (Fatesinger) are not prestige specific. And you buff the party better.

What is it in Virtuoso that you can't replicate elsewhere?

[jandhaer]

OP, I'm not sure what you mean by "a bit more useful to . . . groups." What are you looking for?



Likewise, you can build a warchanter or spellsinger exactly like a virtuoso.

Music of the Makers, Music of the Dead, Fascinate, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Siren's Song (Fatesinger) are not prestige specific. And you buff the party better.

What is it in Virtuoso that you can't replicate elsewhere?

I enjoy dancing mobs in epics with song of capering on a first life toon with dumped CHA and no spell pen to speak of. Fascinate the room then caper and mow em down 1 by 1 :-)

[voodoogroves]

Virts have access to more high-DC abilities than most in heroics, but they are all CC.

What I mean by that is that there are a number of abilities that have native high-DC capabilities. Not like wizards or sorcs, but crazy higher DCs. EDs added a few (Everything is Nothing) and there are some in heroics (Stunning Fist, perhaps Assassinate). Other than straight damage, hitting these are a pretty decent gateway to end-game usefulness.

What Anthios888 is kinda implying around is the package. Song of Capering is fun - but that's one thing. Is that enough? Enthrall is great - but can you count on people (and this is more relevant in the OMGCLEAVELAYWASTEGREATCLEAVESUPREMECLEAVEKILLKILLK ILL world) to not put on too much damage? Sure, Enthrall holds better, but with the metric ton of HP mobs have and the not-quite ton of damage melee can do on big cleaves, Enthrall can break.

At the end of it, the true advantage for a Virt is that it saves a feat (maybe two) over a War Chanter.

That's the real trade-off.

[voodoogroves]

For more specific clarity on my opinion.

War Chanter is still the strongest option. It does require two feats. Virt abilities are awesome, but may be even more limited by group awareness.

[ferrite]

any suggestions? Thoughts? Advice?

Yes, since you asked.

First I'll talk about some of the enhancement choices. After playing multiple bards, I can tell you its best to ditch all bard healing spells right out of the gate and get rid of Song Magic line (unless you go spellsinger or plan to use sonic which is a waste anyway). Wait, wha..? Here's why. Your wand and scroll healing power will match and eventually exceed anything your spells could ever do. You want to max UMD and Wand and scroll mastery to level 4, and carry stacks of Heal scrolls, cure moderate mass scrolls and cure critical wands. Also the important benefit of saving precious SP for needed buffs and perma-hage on the party. The cleric casts, the bard buffs and scroll heals. Learn it, know it.

Next choice, lingering song needs maxed. Its highly important to extend songs as long as you can. You can ditch inspired attack (but NOT inspired damage), since most players have the requisite attack bonus w/heroism/goodhope etc, and especially with the recent PRR update attack bonus is largely useless since now everyone pretty much hits anyway.

Inspired bravery? Really? A simple GH makes this choice obsolete. That's 6 pts you can reclaim right there. Not required for Virt.

Also I see no reason to go past tier 2 in Perform unless you really want that added +2 on top of an eventual 70-80 DC enthrall/fascinate, which really is overkill.

Now for the bad part. I don't see a whole lot of damage potential here. Being a halfling is tough enough, but you've gone and made a strength based build instead of dex based, where the halfling excels. For a full rogue with max sneak ranks its fine, but not for a bard with rogue splash. I'm not going to sugar coat it here, but the whole thing is rather gimpish; neither build presented really excels at anything. Because of that, to be less gimpish and the fact you're not gonna TR (I assume you'll be making this one into a mule), I'd focus this build on UMD and Wand and Scrolls to get some usage out of it, in addition to extended songs, as much as you can muster. So that's my advice.

FYI here's my recommended bard race/pre pairs, little has changed and all are excellent for the aspiring bard

Half Orc Warchanter, Bard 18/Ftr 2, max Strength and Con, remainder in Cha
Drow Spellsinger, Bard 20 w/capstone, max Cha and Con, remainder in Str
Elf Virtuoso/AA, Bard 15/Ranger 2/Rogue 3, max Dex and Con, remainder in Str/Cha

With all of these, you can't really change pre's mid-career, to be effective at endgame you have to stick with the choice made at character creation.

Hope this helps.

[maddmatt70]

Fatesinger has song of siren which is exactly like the Virtuoso fascinate just one target instead of many. I play it all the time on rabiez my warchanter with chord of disruption and it works great on orange names. I will also go into a mob set and ottos a target and play song of the siren while ottos is on cooldown on another target with rabiez.

The reality is bard prestige enahcnements are all kind of weak whether fatesinger, virtuoso, and spellsinger. Spellsinger might be best one currently because the warchanter 5% doublestrike and +2 damage seems like less of a buff then it was due to the other huge buffs everyone got vs. 10% spell cost reduction and spell vigor seem like still kind of powerful.

[goodspeed]

yar I'd say go spellsinger. War is ok if your building a melee yourself, but if not your kind of a gimp. I mean not to say that the group doesn't like the extra dmg but that's all your really offering. As it is on mine, I couldn't really find a reason to take war chanter 2. The guy uses the gore hide armor for the stun 10 on it, and if I were to, evasion.

Double strike is pretty common now in a few slots. I really hope the bards get some sweet sexy loving soon. Maybe if they even just changed the type of buff their songs give. Like something not related to ships, or GH, or what's common on gear now.

But with your levels I would say either spell singer to be just the healers and casters best friends, or as others have said if you can manage it, a virt can be a hell of a ccer. Ive seen those effortlessly pass drow SR making em dance the night away.

[Tuney]

OP, I'm not sure what you mean by "a bit more useful to . . . groups." What are you looking for?



Likewise, you can build a warchanter or spellsinger exactly like a virtuoso.

Music of the Makers, Music of the Dead, Fascinate, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Siren's Song (Fatesinger) are not prestige specific. And you buff the party better.

What is it in Virtuoso that you can't replicate elsewhere?

Well when you cut off the last bit of the first line , it changes the meaning of what I said. It is all about earlier and easier.

The War Chanter's double strike song doesn't stack with item which makes its use even more limited as more and more high level items are coming with some form of double strike. Plus what I like the most about virt is Song of Sustaining when you first get it up to level 16 , it provides enough healing to keep people who aren't taking the brunt of the damage alive.

High end game is starting to favor Spellsinger more: +1 spell DC , Spell caster level , 10% stacking spell cost reduction and spell song Vigor. Where casters shine are getting to the bosses and keeping your healers supplied with SP so they don't have to use pots!

[Bolo_Grubb]

I admit that when I rolled this toon I knew nothing about bards.

I might TR him but kinda burned out on TR at the moment. Now the idea of an sounds interesting, but we shall see.

I do appreciate the feedback. Thanks

[Aashrym]

Well when you cut off the last bit of the first line , it changes the meaning of what I said. It is all about earlier and easier.

The War Chanter's double strike song doesn't stack with item which makes its use even more limited as more and more high level items are coming with some form of double strike. Plus what I like the most about virt is Song of Sustaining when you first get it up to level 16 , it provides enough healing to keep people who aren't taking the brunt of the damage alive.

High end game is starting to favor Spellsinger more: +1 spell DC , Spell caster level , 10% stacking spell cost reduction and spell song Vigor. Where casters shine are getting to the bosses and keeping your healers supplied with SP so they don't have to use pots!

Enthrall doesn't accomplish so much more than fascinate tbh, though. It's noticeable at times but not to the point I would considered it a reason to go virt. I also like sustaining song and think it's under-appreciated in the general community but SP regen can heal more hit points for the party faster.

Capering is nice as an early song but not something I can't do without either.

The freed up feat over a war chanter is another benefit.

I agree war chanters double strike song is rather blah by not stacking with equipment, but a person should keep in mind that means the bard can choose to make use of the song and free up equipment slots for something else as a perk still. That can be coordinated and planned with a group if they have alternate equipment they might wish to slot. Not necessarily a great perk but it exists.

I also think 5 DR is too easy to achieve, other war chanter songs are just spells with limited niche use, and the best benefit on a war chanter currently is the bonus damage to IC.

Spellsingers are a strong choice because it's almost the same IC bonus as the war chanter and the same fascinate (which really is almost the same as virt enthrall). Not only do they shine buffing casters they have the same melee buffs the virts have and more SP for healing to beat out sustaining song, the same extreme DC's available with sirens and fascinate, the same access to MotD and MotM even if it's a bit later; by later we're looking at not waiting for high levels for accessibility.

[Aashrym]

Yes, since you asked.

First I'll talk about some of the enhancement choices. After playing multiple bards, I can tell you its best to ditch all bard healing spells right out of the gate and get rid of Song Magic line (unless you go spellsinger or plan to use sonic which is a waste anyway). Wait, wha..? Here's why. Your wand and scroll healing power will match and eventually exceed anything your spells could ever do. You want to max UMD and Wand and scroll mastery to level 4, and carry stacks of Heal scrolls, cure moderate mass scrolls and cure critical wands. Also the important benefit of saving precious SP for needed buffs and perma-hage on the party. The cleric casts, the bard buffs and scroll heals. Learn it, know it.

Next choice, lingering song needs maxed. Its highly important to extend songs as long as you can. You can ditch inspired attack (but NOT inspired damage), since most players have the requisite attack bonus w/heroism/goodhope etc, and especially with the recent PRR update attack bonus is largely useless since now everyone pretty much hits anyway.

Inspired bravery? Really? A simple GH makes this choice obsolete. That's 6 pts you can reclaim right there. Not required for Virt.

Also I see no reason to go past tier 2 in Perform unless you really want that added +2 on top of an eventual 70-80 DC enthrall/fascinate, which really is overkill.

Now for the bad part. I don't see a whole lot of damage potential here. Being a halfling is tough enough, but you've gone and made a strength based build instead of dex based, where the halfling excels. For a full rogue with max sneak ranks its fine, but not for a bard with rogue splash. I'm not going to sugar coat it here, but the whole thing is rather gimpish; neither build presented really excels at anything. Because of that, to be less gimpish and the fact you're not gonna TR (I assume you'll be making this one into a mule), I'd focus this build on UMD and Wand and Scrolls to get some usage out of it, in addition to extended songs, as much as you can muster. So that's my advice.

FYI here's my recommended bard race/pre pairs, little has changed and all are excellent for the aspiring bard

Half Orc Warchanter, Bard 18/Ftr 2, max Strength and Con, remainder in Cha
Drow Spellsinger, Bard 20 w/capstone, max Cha and Con, remainder in Str
Elf Virtuoso/AA, Bard 15/Ranger 2/Rogue 3, max Dex and Con, remainder in Str/Cha

With all of these, you can't really change pre's mid-career, to be effective at endgame you have to stick with the choice made at character creation.

Hope this helps.

Humans are also strong choices for bards (I'm not currently a fan of drow or elf bards tbh), and my healing spells heal more than scroll healing because I did invest in spell power. The scrolls have the advantage of plat over SP but do heal less what the spells become capable of. The reason it's worth investing in the spell power is for MCLW and MCMW. With the spell power that high MCMW heals each person hit by the spell for more than each would have received with heal scrolls even with wand and scroll IV, and much faster. (EDIT: I should point out scrolls that get the healing done are earlier access than the spell power and caster levels involved.)

[ferrite]

Humans are also strong choices for bards (I'm not currently a fan of drow or elf bards tbh), and my healing spells heal more than scroll healing because I did invest in spell power. The scrolls have the advantage of plat over SP but do heal less what the spells become capable of. The reason it's worth investing in the spell power is for MCLW and MCMW. With the spell power that high MCMW heals each person hit by the spell for more than each would have received with heal scrolls even with wand and scroll IV, and much faster. (EDIT: I should point out scrolls that get the healing done are earlier access than the spell power and caster levels involved.)

This is true, and you can get some extra umph out of this, and for full on spellsingers I do recommend going the spellcasting route, maxing the requisite enhancements since the pre requires many of them anyway. With the additional SP granted from this prestige path, its not as critical a choice.

However, I don't recommend this path for either warchanters or virts, since they have different prerequisites to meet, and doing so tends to weaken both overall for their specific needs. Additionally, both will want to save what little SP they have for perma-hage on the group during melee or ranging, and recasting the odd buff that falls off a party member now and then.

A spellsingers healing power will usually be superior to the others, but a wc or virt can come fairly close to that via scrolls, with the added bonus of using no SP for heals, which can be a lifesaver.

[AzB]

I can see the logic on ditching the healing spell power enhancement if you plan on having solid UMD and heal from scrolls. However, the first two tiers are only 3ap and give a bit of a boost for those times you will use spells, like lower levels, when you run out of scrolls, or just to get a quick heal off before you or someone else dies.

But if you're hurting for ap, that would be a great way to save a few with relatively little downside in most cases.

At least for virts and wc.

[Anthios888]

Those of you who opt to skip healing should check out Rejuvination Cocoon from Primal Avatar. It's a top twist for anyone with a mana bar who needs a source of uninterruptable healing.

It's also affected by spell power, so it is smart, as AzB suggested, to take the first two tiers of Bard Song Magic.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Yes, since you asked.

First I'll talk about some of the enhancement choices. After playing multiple bards, I can tell you its best to ditch all bard healing spells right out of the gate and get rid of Song Magic line (unless you go spellsinger or plan to use sonic which is a waste anyway). Wait, wha..? Here's why. Your wand and scroll healing power will match and eventually exceed anything your spells could ever do. You want to max UMD and Wand and scroll mastery to level 4, and carry stacks of Heal scrolls, cure moderate mass scrolls and cure critical wands. Also the important benefit of saving precious SP for needed buffs and perma-hage on the party. The cleric casts, the bard buffs and scroll heals. Learn it, know it.

Next choice, lingering song needs maxed. Its highly important to extend songs as long as you can. You can ditch inspired attack (but NOT inspired damage), since most players have the requisite attack bonus w/heroism/goodhope etc, and especially with the recent PRR update attack bonus is largely useless since now everyone pretty much hits anyway.

Inspired bravery? Really? A simple GH makes this choice obsolete. That's 6 pts you can reclaim right there. Not required for Virt.

Also I see no reason to go past tier 2 in Perform unless you really want that added +2 on top of an eventual 70-80 DC enthrall/fascinate, which really is overkill.

Now for the bad part. I don't see a whole lot of damage potential here. Being a halfling is tough enough, but you've gone and made a strength based build instead of dex based, where the halfling excels. For a full rogue with max sneak ranks its fine, but not for a bard with rogue splash. I'm not going to sugar coat it here, but the whole thing is rather gimpish; neither build presented really excels at anything. Because of that, to be less gimpish and the fact you're not gonna TR (I assume you'll be making this one into a mule), I'd focus this build on UMD and Wand and Scrolls to get some usage out of it, in addition to extended songs, as much as you can muster. So that's my advice.

FYI here's my recommended bard race/pre pairs, little has changed and all are excellent for the aspiring bard

Half Orc Warchanter, Bard 18/Ftr 2, max Strength and Con, remainder in Cha
Drow Spellsinger, Bard 20 w/capstone, max Cha and Con, remainder in Str
Elf Virtuoso/AA, Bard 15/Ranger 2/Rogue 3, max Dex and Con, remainder in Str/Cha

With all of these, you can't really change pre's mid-career, to be effective at endgame you have to stick with the choice made at character creation.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the feedback, I did find it very useful. And maybe someday I will consider TR on this bard and fix several things. For now I will play this gimp and tweak his ehancements a bit just to learn.

I could use the Free LR I still have for this guy and swap out feats and adjust starting stats, skills etc. I will have to think about it for a bit first though. In any case LR does not allow racial changes correct? and if I do TR I will wait until the enhancement update to see if 18 levels of Bard and prestige tier III is in the game and worth it.

[marinerfan]

In any case LR does not allow racial changes correct?

Correct...at least if memory serves. I LR'd my gimp first level 20 a few weeks ago and think I was stuck as a human (though I didn't check because I wasn't going to change regardless...)

[Cardoor]

Looking at your class split and base stats I see a "Jack of all Trades" build with an emphasis on skills. W/o an LR and using the feats you have chosen, it seems like a Warchanter is still a better fit than Virtuoso (especially for solo play when the reduced melee will become noticeable on red names).

[maddmatt70]

Yes, since you asked.

First I'll talk about some of the enhancement choices. After playing multiple bards, I can tell you its best to ditch all bard healing spells right out of the gate and get rid of Song Magic line (unless you go spellsinger or plan to use sonic which is a waste anyway). Wait, wha..? Here's why. Your wand and scroll healing power will match and eventually exceed anything your spells could ever do. You want to max UMD and Wand and scroll mastery to level 4, and carry stacks of Heal scrolls, cure moderate mass scrolls and cure critical wands. Also the important benefit of saving precious SP for needed buffs and perma-hage on the party. The cleric casts, the bard buffs and scroll heals. Learn it, know it.

Next choice, lingering song needs maxed.

Really why? You can always play the songs gasp every 7 minutes or so which is not a big deal. I would say only lingering song 2 or 3 really.

I somewhat agree about the bard song magic, but the reality is it is not a big investment to max or put points into the bard song magic enhancmeents so shrug why not really unless the character is 100% melee and buffs.

If you can get some gear such as the bauble and abbot gloves you can actually make a warchanter bard or virtuoso bards spell points go a long way and might as well use for healing as the mass cure spells can be pretty potent. My mass cure moderate wounds spell is high 200s (with just maximize) a pop now on rabiez my bard which is plenty for epic elite. I never use cure moderate mass wounds scrolls anymore as they do only about 60 a pop. Cure critical wands are a nice trick on a main tank with high healing amp in a raid ex Lord of Blades Raid (another healing device on cooldown), but otherwise shrug.

A bard can heal a party throughout an entire raid or quest and really a spellsinger's only advantage versus a warchanter is a few more spell points so shrug.

[Bolo_Grubb]

well since this toon is gimped, I think I will play around with Virtuoso for a bit. That way I can say that I have some experience with all 3 bard prestige.

This toon has been a warchanter all his life so I have a feel for what warchanter can do even if this toon is gimp at it. I also have a level 23 spellsinger (pure bard) that started has just a haggle bot but not does chest buffing, so I have a feel for that.

Virtuoso is all that is left to try for bard. Once I decide I have a feel for that I will either TR this halfling bard or roll up a new bard.


MMM the bard past life feat is not very impressive.

[marinerfan]

MMM the bard past life feat is not very impressive.

I think this is something everyone can agree on :p

[maddmatt70]

I think this is something everyone can agree on :p

It is actually pretty good for a cc bard. You get +1 to your dc and 3 more songs. I trrd my cc bard hangover for it and then ubti wizard for the wizard past life feat and then back to bard...

[changelingamuck]

One important note is that the virtuoso healing song (which isn't so good) over-rides a spellsinger's sp regeneration song which can be really frustrating for the divine whose sp stops regenerating and the spellsinger who keeps having to burn songs which won't work until the hp song timer runs out.

I'm 95% sure that I read in release notes that the bug of the sustaining song overwriting the spellsinger's sp regen song was fixed in a recent update or hotfix. So, that shouldn't be an issue anymore.

Anyways, especially on EE difficulty, I like to have a virtuoso bard in the party since their crowd control is more likely to land than other classes' CC since their DCs are based on the perform skill and are unaffected by spell resistance. And at that difficulty, the group should be communicating enough to recognize how to maintain the fascinates/enthralls.

I don't really think there's a huge difference in the strength of any of the bard prestiges in any case.

[Innara]

It is actually pretty good for a cc bard. You get +1 to your dc and 3 more songs. I trrd my cc bard hangover for it and then ubti wizard for the wizard past life feat and then back to bard...

Only if you take the active feat. I suspect they meant the passive one which gives like +2 saves vs enchant/illusions + 1 song. Personally I think the passive one should give +1 enchant dc which would make acquiring a bard past life much more appealing.

[AzB]

Only if you take the active feat. I suspect they meant the passive one which gives like +2 saves vs enchant/illusions + 1 song. Personally I think the passive one should give +1 enchant dc which would make acquiring a bard past life much more appealing.

I agree. Especially since illusions work the way they do in DDO. In Partycrashers, for example, the illusionary traps still do half damage if you save. That doesn't make sense to me, if you see an illusion for what it is how can it possibly harm you?

The purchased past life feat is better, but hardly worth using a feat slot in an already feat starved class. If you were a non bard enchanter wizard, it might be a cool feat as you would get inspire courage and +1 to your enchanment spells. That makes it a nice replacement for spell focus enchantment as it gives you the same +1 dc to enchantments, but adds the unique ability to inspire courage three times per rest. However, giving up spell focus means not getting greater spell focus.

All in all, the bard past life feats are meh. Not particularly useful for a bard, and not useful at all for much of any other class other than a specific enchant/wiz.

[marinerfan]

Only if you take the active feat. I suspect they meant the passive one which gives like +2 saves vs enchant/illusions + 1 song. Personally I think the passive one should give +1 enchant dc which would make acquiring a bard past life much more appealing.

Yup, this is what I meant. I have the passive feat on a melee heavy character and I don't seem to save on enchant/illusions ever, so +2 seems worthless at this point. maybe when I get geared up a bit more in a few levels I'll actually notice it.

And a question on the active - does the + to enchant stack with spell focus? it kind of sounds like it doesn't, which seems silly to me.

[Aashrym]

I agree. Especially since illusions work the way they do in DDO. In Partycrashers, for example, the illusionary traps still do half damage if you save. That doesn't make sense to me, if you see an illusion for what it is how can it possibly harm you?

The purchased past life feat is better, but hardly worth using a feat slot in an already feat starved class. If you were a non bard enchanter wizard, it might be a cool feat as you would get inspire courage and +1 to your enchanment spells. That makes it a nice replacement for spell focus enchantment as it gives you the same +1 dc to enchantments, but adds the unique ability to inspire courage three times per rest. However, giving up spell focus means not getting greater spell focus.

All in all, the bard past life feats are meh. Not particularly useful for a bard, and not useful at all for much of any other class other than a specific enchant/wiz.

In DnD illusions of the shadow subtype are partially real and still have an effect if saved against. Shadow illusions bring some versatility to wizard, bard, and sorcerer illusionists but DDO has pretty much avoided the entire illusionist play style. In PnP bards feature illusions and charms as the main lines of spells instead of just charms, and have a lot more options with sonic spells and swapping in sorc/wiz spells with the supplements.

As far as the bard past life, the passive feat is very useful on a build without a strong WILL save until equipment can provide immunities. It's great on a barbarian in the harbor. Not worth the grind but useful if a person has it, at low levels. The extra song is a bonus. Overall, the passive feat has some value at least; it's just very small value to most.

The active feat also helps with CHA skills, so has that perk, and provides a stacking bonus to the enchantment DC so has value to bards, sorcerers, and wizards who want that DC. 3 more songs is useful even if dedicated to IC because IC is still a decent ability. A helf bard with bard dilettante and the bard active past life has a lot of songs fast.

It's a bit niche but worth while for those who fit in that niche, and required for completionist regardless.

[barrenwaste]

Personally, I'll take a warchanter over any other bard anyday of the week. A dwarven warchanter, if built and equipped right, can fill any role in the party from healer to tank to cc as needed (excepting only trapper). Like many have said, the key is not to focus on offensive spell casting, it's a waste for such a limited caster. Instead, take only the buffs and use your songs for cc. Top it off with a maxed UMD and wand/scroll enhancement progression and you can heal, res, knock, cc, and buff. I would also suggest multiclassing barbarian and make your warchanter a bardbarian. The enhancements for rage can turn your drunken dwarven crooner into a 4 foot tall bundle of nope in a hurry. As to equipment, what you need to do is to make at least two, and likely three, entirely seperate sets for your beardly bardbarian. One set for your self buffing melee personna, one set for your buffing healbot (which can double as a set for cc, too, if done right), and one set for your silver tongued beguiling devil persona. Why seperate sets? Well, the bardbarian can do all things in limited fashion no matter what he/she wears but it's not truely powerful enough at anything to fill a dedicated role without seperate dedicated sets of equipment.

[Innara]

And a question on the active - does the + to enchant stack with spell focus? it kind of sounds like it doesn't, which seems silly to me.

Yes the bard past life active feat will stack with everything, including sf: enchant.

[Qezuzu]

I have a Virtuoso bard and she is just fun to play. She's melee specced, and with Epic Antique Greataxe and the Dreadnought ED, she has some pretty awesome DPS; the x6 crits are fun too.

She also has stunning blow and trip, and combined with the song CC and OID, she's a force of nature.

[Bolo_Grubb]

so far I am having a lot of fun as a virtuoso