Define "mediocre"

[squishwizzy]

I see a lot of posts about their build doing "mediocre" DPS. The problem is that I don't exactly see a definition of what mediocre really is. What is "mediocre" to a nuking Sorc is probably decent by melee standard. Plus, because you can't really see the other guy's numbers rising up during a melee, you can't exactly compare what you're doing to the next guy whom you assume is a very good player.

So, is there a way to define "mediocre" for any given class / any given build? If the question needs to be limited, then start with a first life build for any given class (28 points) and go up from there.

[arkonas]

well one way to define average numbers is by posting your numbers by screenshot, text, video etc. Then people get an average idea what your using against mobs. So there is your number. Then you see players with gear abilities, etc that change those numbers.

[Kinerd]

One big issue is that different builds have dramatically different dependencies: DPS gear is crucial and difficult to acquire for a melee, DPS gear falls out of trees for arcanes. If for the sake of argument you take a video and have different gear, are you really comparing builds? No, you are not. (Past lives are qualitatively similar but of course so tiny in quantitative impact that you can pretty much ignore them.) If X DPS is mediocre, is Y build mediocre or Z gear? Both? Neither (other factors)?

The reverse is true for elemental resistances: almost no serious melee boss beater uses elemental damage, but every serious arcane DPS spell is based on an element. Then there's fortification: with the million and one fort reducers we have now, which do you assume, if any?

Another big issue is that EDs have introduced a new attack style in Cleave-Cleaving that is not well measured. With no mathematically determined attack rate, you can't objectively compare it to anything. Compounding this issue is that everyone knows it is by far the best, so it is very popular (and therefore very relevant) and no one is inclined to measure it.

My advice is to decide on the gear set(s) you are going to have and do the arithmetic from there (or use one of the spreadsheet/calculators running around). If you're not going to grind out an eSoS, don't include the eSoS. If you're not going to grind out the Cannith crafting to get +5 HB of GBs, don't include them either. You could then also calculate out the maximum gear, maximum grind, maximum whatever and see how you stack up if you want.

[Rawrargh]

Well, in epic play it's fairly easy to make an estimate... I'll use my fighter splashed barb 18/2 as an example wich isn't top of the line, but still decent.

Got about 100 attacks/minute (99.9) with haste wich I assume is always on.

damage:

70 str = (60/2)*1.5 = 45
weapon enhancement = 7
Righteousness = 2
cove trinket = 1
average of 2d20 from eaga = 20
power attack = 10
Power attack enhancements = 12
LD's power attack +½[w] = 20/2/2 = 5
orcish melee damage = +4

for 107 on average each swing without counting weapon mods such as double vicious, force ritual and force burst.

out of those hundred swings I should be getting 10 crits wich does:

107*(3+1+1+1+1+1) = 856

That's 3 from greataxe, 1 from tier 2 frenzied berserker, 1 from tier 3 frenzied berserker, 1 from death frenzy, 1 from OC and 1 from Headman's chop.

So, every minutte I should be getting 85 hits of 107, and 10 hits of 856 wich translates into 17655 damage/min or 294 damage/second, not acounting for glancing blows.

That is by my definition the low end of high damage. Keep in mind I haven't accounted for glancing blows, weapon modifiers, action boosts, seeker, party buffs, ship buffs or twists of any kind.

Disclaimer: This is MY definition and is just my attempt to give an idea of what is doable with just a little bit of effort.

[Chai]

One big issue is that different builds have dramatically different dependencies: DPS gear is crucial and difficult to acquire for a melee, DPS gear falls out of trees for arcanes. If for the sake of argument you take a video and have different gear, are you really comparing builds? No, you are not. (Past lives are qualitatively similar but of course so tiny in quantitative impact that you can pretty much ignore them.) If X DPS is mediocre, is Y build mediocre or Z gear? Both? Neither (other factors)?

The reverse is true for elemental resistances: almost no serious melee boss beater uses elemental damage, but every serious arcane DPS spell is based on an element. Then there's fortification: with the million and one fort reducers we have now, which do you assume, if any?

Another big issue is that EDs have introduced a new attack style in Cleave-Cleaving that is not well measured. With no mathematically determined attack rate, you can't objectively compare it to anything. Compounding this issue is that everyone knows it is by far the best, so it is very popular (and therefore very relevant) and no one is inclined to measure it.

My advice is to decide on the gear set(s) you are going to have and do the arithmetic from there (or use one of the spreadsheet/calculators running around). If you're not going to grind out an eSoS, don't include the eSoS. If you're not going to grind out the Cannith crafting to get +5 HB of GBs, don't include them either. You could then also calculate out the maximum gear, maximum grind, maximum whatever and see how you stack up if you want.

Yes, I love the fact that melee DPS is no longer measured assuming the player was just running up to the mob, hitting all boosts, then staying nailed to the same spot on the floor for minutes at a time.

[Stormraiser]

One of the ways you can compare DPS is based on past lives or other characters. Are you doing more DPS or less then before? Are you killing things faster, etc.

[Kinerd]

Yes, I love the fact that melee DPS is no longer measured assuming the player was just running up to the mob, hitting all boosts, then staying nailed to the same spot on the floor for minutes at a time.I'm not sure I wrote what you think I wrote. As long as raid bosses stand around like dopes and get beaten on, that assumption still holds pretty well. The new wrinkle is the new attack style, just like supreme cleave twitching before it and twitch before that. Get an attack speed for that (and each component of that), and it's the same old computations.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I always wonder what is considered "good dps" I don't play many melees, so I have no idea what's good or bad.

Archers crit for around 200 to 500 and arcanes anywhere from 1000 to 6000, beyond that no clue.

[Silex_Molior]

Define "mediocre"

Microsoft

:D

[voodoogroves]

Mediocre is one step above wherever I'm at.

[MyHumps]

One of the ways you can compare DPS is based on past lives or other characters. Are you doing more DPS or less then before? Are you killing things faster, etc.

Generally past lives don't automatically give higher DPS unless they did a pastlife is certain classes ie monk, rogue, paladin.

[Chai]

I'm not sure I wrote what you think I wrote. As long as raid bosses stand around like dopes and get beaten on, that assumption still holds pretty well. The new wrinkle is the new attack style, just like supreme cleave twitching before it and twitch before that. Get an attack speed for that (and each component of that), and it's the same old computations.

There are already calcs on the forums for that stuff, with attack rates. One was posted in a ranged damage thread comparing melee and ranged DPS with people trying to justify that ranged either does or does not need some love. Most of the game isnt played like that however, and all but a few of the best in slot gear items can be acquired in quests that do not have raid bosses that stand in one place.

[Silex_Molior]

Another big issue is that EDs have introduced a new attack style in Cleave-Cleaving that is not well measured.

What is that?

[byzantinebob]

It means you are doing enough to not make people complain, but enough that people don't praise you.

[mobrien316]

For me it's a relative term, and I only apply it to my own characters.

My sorcerer does excellent spell damage.

My battle cleric does very good melee damage.

My rogue does situationally excellent melee damage and okay melee damage at other times.

My bard does mediocre melee damage and slightly better ranged damage. His spell damage is mediocre, but his crowd control is outstanding.


When I'm in groups I only notice other people's damage in two situations:

1. "Wow! That's some good damage!"

Or...

2. "Wow! That's some horrible damage! Are you AFK?"

[Qhualor]

Generally past lives don't automatically give higher DPS unless they did a pastlife is certain classes ie monk, rogue, paladin.

Paladin past life is 5%-15% heal amp. No dps increase.

[Qhualor]

There are already calcs on the forums for that stuff, with attack rates. One was posted in a ranged damage thread comparing melee and ranged DPS with people trying to justify that ranged either does or does not need some love. Most of the game isnt played like that however, and all but a few of the best in slot gear items can be acquired in quests that do not have raid bosses that stand in one place.

My issue with those is that its only good for standing still. Some formulas you can figure in buffs and gear and i consider some unrealistic. Calculations i think are good for a starting point and the potential your character can do, but its a whole different ballgame once you step into a quest. Not everyone is geared the same, buffed, death isnt figured in, ship buffs dependent on guild level, different weapons and gear for different mobs, movement penalty, moving around or dodging attacks, lucky or unlucky rolls, crits and so forth and so on.

[squishwizzy]

Microsoft

:D

LOL.

Boy, do I have stories...

[Dandonk]

Paladin past life is 5%-15% heal amp. No dps increase.

Probably talking about the active non-free feat.

[squishwizzy]

One big issue is that different builds have dramatically different dependencies: DPS gear is crucial and difficult to acquire for a melee, DPS gear falls out of trees for arcanes. If for the sake of argument you take a video and have different gear, are you really comparing builds? No, you are not. (Past lives are qualitatively similar but of course so tiny in quantitative impact that you can pretty much ignore them.) If X DPS is mediocre, is Y build mediocre or Z gear? Both? Neither (other factors)?

The reverse is true for elemental resistances: almost no serious melee boss beater uses elemental damage, but every serious arcane DPS spell is based on an element. Then there's fortification: with the million and one fort reducers we have now, which do you assume, if any?

Another big issue is that EDs have introduced a new attack style in Cleave-Cleaving that is not well measured. With no mathematically determined attack rate, you can't objectively compare it to anything. Compounding this issue is that everyone knows it is by far the best, so it is very popular (and therefore very relevant) and no one is inclined to measure it.

My advice is to decide on the gear set(s) you are going to have and do the arithmetic from there (or use one of the spreadsheet/calculators running around). If you're not going to grind out an eSoS, don't include the eSoS. If you're not going to grind out the Cannith crafting to get +5 HB of GBs, don't include them either. You could then also calculate out the maximum gear, maximum grind, maximum whatever and see how you stack up if you want.

I's have to disagree somewhat on this. If you're an arcane, by the time you get to endgame you're going to have - at a minimum - a Major Lore item for one or more of your desired damage-dealing lines, and some point shoved into enhancements that add up as well. Plus you'll have (again, as a minumum) a +5 INT modifiers, maybe consumed a +2 tome in your main stat (which, really, isn't that hard to acquire even for F2P), some spell power gear, and +2 equipment to your main spell classifications (for example, I generally go with necro and enchantment on my wizzies). So, you have some standard stuff that you may not need to grind for, but will be relatively easy to get just running straight quests.

Maybe if we throw out EDs, it might make the assessment a little easier. Breaking it down by class, and maybe applying items that have a relatively high frequency of dropping might make the assessment somewhat easier to quantify. Maybe remove named items, or assume a single named item in the toon's possession?

Just a thought.

[Kmnh]

Mediocre would be about what a nuking sorc can do. Good would be the very few good rogues,barbarians and fighters out there.

The sorcerer class lost a lot of its charm now that most of the caster DPS comes from ED stuff.

[Qhualor]

Probably talking about the active non-free feat.

if someone wants to waste a feat slot for casting Divine Favor, than i guess, but i consider it a waste of a slot especially if you can umd the scroll.

[Qhualor]

Mediocre would be about what a nuking sorc can do. Good would be the very few good rogues,barbarians and fighters out there.

The sorcerer class lost a lot of its charm now that most of the caster DPS comes from ED stuff.

have to disagree here. you cant label a class that is good or mediocre. it all depends on how someone builds them and plays them. ive seen every class played to its maximum potential many times, while at the same time, ive seen every class played at its worst potential many times.

[Kmnh]

have to disagree here. you cant label a class that is good or mediocre. it all depends on how someone builds them and plays them. ive seen every class played to its maximum potential many times, while at the same time, ive seen every class played at its worst potential many times.

I'm not saying that sorcs are mediocre, I'm say their top end DPS is mediocre. Sorcerers have a lot of abilities that are not DPS, like the insane overpowered quickened reconstruct.

[Enoach]

Not sure if you've noticed this, but most of the posters have danced around the number only one gave you a number of what they consider to be the low end of the High DPS number. Using a THF Barbarian with a 70 strength (10+ strength is dependent on you having the Barbarian Rage abilities which are not available to other classes).

I think part of the reason why it is difficult to come up with a number is because it is very dependent on what you are fighting and how many HP it has, and its regeneration rate (includes types that can self heal and do).

Because there are different ways to build a character - Pure Offense ("Best Defense is a Good Offense") builds to "Nah Nah Nah you can't hit me" Builds and everything in between.

Before we can figure out what "mediocre" is one must know what average is.

The other problem with figuring out what is good/average/good/etc DPS is that the amount of DPS a build brings to the table can change based on what they are fighting. Rogue's Backstab ability can bring a whole bunch of DPS to the table where sneak attack is viable, and by the same token loss a bunch of DPS when its not. Crit dependent builds have the same issue to varying degrees based on how much fortification they are working against. Then DR adds in its own issues if a build cannot bypass the DR.

Before Scrag got changed, a group of friends and I would take masterwork weapons out and beat down a scrag for 60 seconds and then time how long it would take for them to stand up again, as you needed either Acid or Fire to actually kill them (just in case someone ever wondered why the flaming cudgel in Ghost of a Chance was put in).

Again most people don't measure their raw DPS with standard weapons and without buffs, they measure them with rare or specialized weapons.

Another consideration is "Overkill". Casters deal with this issue, but so do high DPS melee. I mention this, because some measure "mediocre" based on numbers that would be considered "over kill" or more than what is needed. This skews the outlook in that if something only needs to be hit for 100 damage to die, is a hit of 50 points mediocre? It is if you compare it against a 150+ hit because it is 1/4th but the target is still dead in two swings with 50 points of damage per swing.

How I measure Poor/Mediocre/Good DPS (situation based)

Can I apply enough damage to kill the mob before it kills me, No = poor, yes but it's an epic fight = mediocre, yes = good, What mob? = Outstanding

[Lonnbeimnech]

A sorc, through much of the game puts out overkill amounts of damage, clearing a whole room with one dbf in gianthold on elite in a full party, doing 1500 on a crit to mobs with 500 or so hp

But that is not what people are talking about when they are talking about dps.

When people are talking about dps they mean sustained damage, usually against a single opponent with high amounts of hp, like raid bosses. This is why dps calcs don't factor in things like moving from one target to the next. It's assumed that you are standing there teeing off on one mob.

This is where melee dps is relevant and caster damage falls behind.



As far as the definition of mediocre, it means average, but people use it to mean bad, but not horrible.

because you can't really see the other guy's numbers rising up during a melee, you can't exactly compare what you're doing to the next guy whom you assume is a very good player.
Not knowing how much the next guy does, doesnt matter. If you have made a max dps barbarian, and then roll up a dps paladin, you dont need to see what anyone else is doing to know your barbarian hits much higher than your paladin. Then when you roll up a druid, and see he does somewhere between your paladin and your barb, you can call that mediocre.

[fco-karatekid]

Since everyone's staying a little abstract, here are some easily-obtained damage numbers (I don't play casters, so I don't know those, nor do I know barbs):

35-45 per arrow by around level 15 is obtainable with a little effort by an average Ranger AA
40-45 per hit is easily obtainable with a little effort by a Tempest at around 15
50-60 per hit "" for a pure monk at around 15, subtract~5 for a splashed monk (depending upon splash, of course)

These are all mediocre numbers - focusing on them more will yield some good increases.

[Qhualor]

Since everyone's staying a little abstract, here are some easily-obtained damage numbers (I don't play casters, so I don't know those, nor do I know barbs):

35-45 per arrow by around level 15 is obtainable with a little effort by an average Ranger AA
40-45 per hit is easily obtainable with a little effort by a Tempest at around 15
50-60 per hit "" for a pure monk at around 15, subtract~5 for a splashed monk (depending upon splash, of course)

These are all mediocre numbers - focusing on them more will yield some good increases.

im not understanding how you came up with these numbers. shouldnt AA deal more damage with arrows than a Tempest since Tempests dont usually focus on ranged?

[fco-karatekid]

im not understanding how you came up with these numbers. shouldnt AA deal more damage with arrows than a Tempest since Tempests dont usually focus on ranged?


Doesn't say "with arrows" on the Tempest line.

EDIT: And as far as how I came up with them: I've built several of each. I turned my head toward the screen and opened my eyes. The result of the little floaty orange numbers? Yah, I kept those in my memory.

[nibel]

Another big issue is that EDs have introduced a new attack style in Cleave-Cleaving that is not well measured. With no mathematically determined attack rate, you can't objectively compare it to anything. Compounding this issue is that everyone knows it is by far the best, so it is very popular (and therefore very relevant) and no one is inclined to measure it.


What is that?

Overwhelming Critical is an awesome epic feat for melees that requires Cleave and Greater Cleave. So, more melees have Cleave now than they had before MotU. Cleave attacks reset your attack chain, so you start from your first swing animation again.

Add to that list Momentum Swing and Lay Waste, two powerful abilities of the Legendary Dreadnough destiny that get recharges when you use cleaves, and you have NO IDEA how many hits an average melee does per minute anymore.

Before, that was easily measured. Just stand still, hold the attack button, and check a clock. With the exception of the few melees that had clickable things (like a Barbarian's Supreme Cleave or Improved Sunder), every melee around would be attacking at that rate, and you could measure if stopping the animation for a buff (like Divine Might) is worth it or not.

[squishwizzy]

Not sure if you've noticed this, but most of the posters have danced around the number only one gave you a number of what they consider to be the low end of the High DPS number.

No, I noticed.


I think part of the reason why it is difficult to come up with a number is because it is very dependent on what you are fighting and how many HP it has, and its regeneration rate (includes types that can self heal and do).

Because there are different ways to build a character - Pure Offense ("Best Defense is a Good Offense") builds to "Nah Nah Nah you can't hit me" Builds and everything in between.

Before we can figure out what "mediocre" is one must know what average is.

The other problem with figuring out what is good/average/good/etc DPS is that the amount of DPS a build brings to the table can change based on what they are fighting. Rogue's Backstab ability can bring a whole bunch of DPS to the table where sneak attack is viable, and by the same token loss a bunch of DPS when its not. Crit dependent builds have the same issue to varying degrees based on how much fortification they are working against. Then DR adds in its own issues if a build cannot bypass the DR.

Before Scrag got changed, a group of friends and I would take masterwork weapons out and beat down a scrag for 60 seconds and then time how long it would take for them to stand up again, as you needed either Acid or Fire to actually kill them (just in case someone ever wondered why the flaming cudgel in Ghost of a Chance was put in).

Again most people don't measure their raw DPS with standard weapons and without buffs, they measure them with rare or specialized weapons.

Another consideration is "Overkill". Casters deal with this issue, but so do high DPS melee. I mention this, because some measure "mediocre" based on numbers that would be considered "over kill" or more than what is needed. This skews the outlook in that if something only needs to be hit for 100 damage to die, is a hit of 50 points mediocre? It is if you compare it against a 150+ hit because it is 1/4th but the target is still dead in two swings with 50 points of damage per swing.

How I measure Poor/Mediocre/Good DPS (situation based)

Can I apply enough damage to kill the mob before it kills me, No = poor, yes but it's an epic fight = mediocre, yes = good, What mob? = Outstanding

Actually, I think that's not a bad guideline.

[Kinerd]

What is that?Elaborating on nibel's point, we not only don't know how many hits but how many hits of which kind. Even if we knew they did 115 hits per minute, how many Cleaves? G/S Cleaves? MS? LW?
I's have to disagree somewhat on this. If you're an arcane, by the time you get to endgame you're going to have - at a minimum - a Major Lore item for one or more of your desired damage-dealing lines, and some point shoved into enhancements that add up as well. Plus you'll have (again, as a minumum) a +5 INT modifiers, maybe consumed a +2 tome in your main stat (which, really, isn't that hard to acquire even for F2P), some spell power gear, and +2 equipment to your main spell classifications (for example, I generally go with necro and enchantment on my wizzies). So, you have some standard stuff that you may not need to grind for, but will be relatively easy to get just running straight quests.That's what I mean. It's almost impossible not to acquire good DPS gear on a caster, especially since the introduction of Thaumaturgy. Hence, it falls out of trees.
A sorc, through much of the game puts out overkill amounts of damage, clearing a whole room with one dbf in gianthold on elite in a full party, doing 1500 on a crit to mobs with 500 or so hp

But that is not what people are talking about when they are talking about dps.

When people are talking about dps they mean sustained damage, usually against a single opponent with high amounts of hp, like raid bosses. This is why dps calcs don't factor in things like moving from one target to the next. It's assumed that you are standing there teeing off on one mob.

This is where melee dps is relevant and caster damage falls behind.Personally, I don't think casters are very far behind melees. With just EES, NBC, Polar Ray, and BDB, it's pretty easy to churn out 500 DPS even on my wizard. There are a lot of resistances, true, but resistances only apply per tick, and if your tick is for instance 6 seconds in the case of Polar Ray, a 60 resist is only -10 DPS. Then there are things like the Savant curse or (admittedly less popular) the Dark monk curses. People have made caster tanks, after all, it can't be that far behind in raw DPS.

At the same time, there are bosses like Lailat who are outright immune to electricity, but at the same time arcanes lose no DPS while she's teleported away. Does that count? I would say it's a subjective matter, but I would also say yes.

[Kmnh]

I don't think casters are very far behind melees. With just EES, NBC, Polar Ray, and BDB, it's pretty easy to churn out 500 DPS even on my wizard.

Blitzing rogues and barbarians are clocking somewhere above 2500 DPS

[Kinerd]

The most optimistic spreadsheets I've seen put the figure at around 1000, but like I said such calculations are suspect without empirical swing speeds.

[xTethx]

I'm not saying that sorcs are mediocre, I'm say their top end DPS is mediocre. Sorcerers have a lot of abilities that are not DPS, like the insane overpowered quickened reconstruct.

Disagree totally. No class can even come close to a well built, well-played arcane in terms of dps.

[nibel]

Disagree totally. No class can even come close to a well built, well-played arcane in terms of dps.

Did you played with a THF with Master's Blitz or Unbridled Fury? Not mocking up, serious question. I used to underestimate Draconic Incarnation until I got my sorcerer to stop and level up some ED levels.

[Stormraiser]

Generally past lives don't automatically give higher DPS unless they did a pastlife is certain classes ie monk, rogue, paladin.

I meant comparing their damage now with their prior (past) life damage.

[Stormraiser]

I'm not saying that sorcs are mediocre, I'm say their top end DPS is mediocre. Sorcerers have a lot of abilities that are not DPS, like the insane overpowered quickened reconstruct.

What?

[Xynot2]

Microsoft

:D
With Steve Jobs gone, you'll be able to Apple to that list soon.

At least we still have Linux

[HalfORCastrator]

The most optimistic spreadsheets I've seen put the figure at around 1000, but like I said such calculations are suspect without empirical swing speeds.
The most basic way to do this would be to calculate damage of the special attacks and lay out 10 minutes, second by second. Lay Waste has a 25% chance of a cooldown reset, so every 4 Momentum Swings incorporate a Lay Waste. Momentum Swing has a 50% chance of a cooldown reset from Cleave, so every second Cleave type incorporate a Momentum Swing. Calculate the average damage for each type of attack: Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, normal attacks, Lay Waste, glancing blows to whatever applicable. Have the 19th and 20th of each attack crit.

For a barb, IE:
001sec - Damage Boost IV
002sec - Lay Waste
003sec - Momentum Swing
004sec - Supreme Cleave
005sec - Great Cleave
006sec - Momentum Swing
007sec - Supreme Cleave
008sec - Cleave
009sec - Momentum Swing
010sec - Great Cleave
011sec - Supreme Cleave
012sec - Momentum Swing
013sec - Lay Waste
014sec - etc

Gear could be: Horc 20 Barbarian, ESOS/EAGA, 80 str(*), 15 seeker, 4 claw, 2 encrusted, 13 SA dmg. 60% glancing blows, 22 power attack, tunnel vision, frenzies untyped, x8crit multiplier. Do calculations using each ED. All that good stuff.


Obviously we don't have the animation times, but we can guesstimate for a broad idea of dps calculations.



*20base+6lvlups+5tome+7item+2ins+1exc+8barbrage+4b arbpowerrage+2orcpowerrage+6frenzies+2orcenhs+2fbs et+2cap+2profane+5primalscream=73+2yugo+2ship+1des tiny=78+2madstone=80

BTW, I"m seeing random spaces in the middle of words, but they're not actually there when typing posts. Anyone know what that could be?

[Barhai]

I find it's not that hard to estimate the quality of a build:
- you solo almost all quests at level on elite?: Yer fine.
- you solo most quest on hard: the build is good
- you solo most quest on normal: There's a glitch. Check if there are items to increase your DC/dps/HP/damage mitigation/saves. Sometimes it doesn't take much.

-You can't solo quest on normal: Time for a character audit. Get some guildies to help you farm easy epics/challenges to get mats/commendations and get some better but easy to get gear.

[Xynot2]

Definition of Mediocre?


me·di·o·cre
[mee-dee-oh-ker] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate: The car gets only mediocre mileage, but it's fun to drive. Synonyms: undistinguished, commonplace, pedestrian, everyday; run-of-the-mill. Antonyms: extraordinary, superior, uncommon, incomparable.
2.
not satisfactory; poor; inferior: Mediocre construction makes that building dangerous.

3.
DDO players who cant solo everything with every character and self heal as soon as they enter the game.


Seriously. Until I hit lv 20 I had no flippin clue. I explained my feats and EP to my friends and they made several suggestion. Then I got the character creator and played with it for a while. I got some uber gear with the toon as it was and then TR'd him into something better. You're all ignoring the learning curve. In nearly 5 years of play, I have had 3 toons make it to lv 20 and only 5 make it past 14. Why? I generally spend more time helping other people get gear than I do focusing on how to build. My toons are a bit better than Mediocre, by the standards you're numbers imply. But when it comes down to it in the heat of a major screw up, I'm far from mediocre. Dont take this to imply that I take any of this personally. I just got a bit tired of the arrogance stinking up the thread.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Well.... for one thing, some people prefer to be humble when they brag. :p

But what I see often in the kill counts is one guy way at the top. A second guy about twenty behind but still way above the rest.

then 2-3 guys close to each other but way behind numbers 1 and 2......
Those guys are probably doing mediocre DPS.





Although.....
Kill counts are not a measure of DPS.
There are many factors that effect kill counts.
I would argue that 30% striders contribute more to kills than having a Sword of Shadows.

It is also common to see plaers who just never get their weapons on target. Usually because someone else got there first and killed everything.

So... yeah... there really is no way to measure mediocre DPS.

My guess is that most people who think they are doing mediocre DPS are probably doing poor DPS.


One way to self evaluate is to go spend some time on a training dummy.
IMO when you bring it down in about 20 seconds you are doing pretty good DPS.
But some people can bring it down in about 1 second.... so everything is relative.

[kingfisher]

you have mediocre (or worse) melee dps if:

you wonder if you have mediocre dps.
the other melee finish off their mobs before you do and come over and steal your kill.
you cant beat down a eh mob before he drops a quarter of your hp.
the crit range on your weapon is less than 4.
the base damage of your weapon is less than 2(w).
you see yellow numbers more often than not.
you are a paladin.

not that there is anything wrong with that......but by today's standards with ed's, loot, etc, these low end benchmarks do apply. adjusting weaponry/tactics from mob to mob or quest to quest is ok, thats what your golf bag full'o'weapons is for.

[squishwizzy]

you have mediocre (or worse) melee dps if:

you wonder if you have mediocre dps.

Problem is that I'm not a huge DDO stat guy, and stats thrown around in this game sometimes remind me of the stats often thrown around in sports by sports announcers. They'll talk about some baseball player leading the league in steals in the past 30 games, and while that sounds impressive, it doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes to the overall picture (that there are - say - 150 games in a season). So basically, someone comes up with a number so that the announcers have something to talk about that makes them look somewhat relevent as it comes to the game. The reality is, the number is just a big crock of excrement, and it has virtually no meaning whatsoever.

Now if that number lands you in the baseball Hall of Fame - then it actually means something.

So yeah, I wonder if I have mediocre DPS on one or more of my toons. I won't actually know until I have a guideline.



you see yellow numbers more often than not.

That more related to DR-breaking than having something like proper stat / feat / enhancement allocation. Yeah, I know gear has *something* to do with decent DPS, but it is not considered part of a baseline.


you are a paladin.

That's a given,


...but by today's standards with ed's, loot, etc, these low end benchmarks do apply. adjusting weaponry/tactics from mob to mob or quest to quest is ok, thats what your golf bag full'o'weapons is for.

I didn't pony-up for EDs. But my thought is that if you got crappy DPS pre-EDs, you're going to have crappy DPS post-EDs, especially when running with other people who also have EDs.

Garbage in, garbage out is my assumption.

[Kinerd]

The most basic way to do this would be to calculate damage of the special attacks and lay out 10 minutes, second by second. Lay Waste has a 25% chance of a cooldown reset, so every 4 Momentum Swings incorporate a Lay Waste. Momentum Swing has a 50% chance of a cooldown reset from Cleave, so every second Cleave type incorporate a Momentum Swing. Calculate the average damage for each type of attack: Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, normal attacks, Lay Waste, glancing blows to whatever applicable. Have the 19th and 20th of each attack crit.This approach seems like it should work, but for whatever reason it doesn't. Before Cleave-Cleaving we had Supreme Cleave Twitching, where a barbarian would use their Supreme Cleave ability (which at that point had a 1 second cooldown) as frequently as possible. Performing the analysis you describe results in an attack rate of 120 over a base of 100, but empirically the attack rate turned out to be only 110... and that's with just one button to push! With up to 5, the analytic approach is just fraught with peril.