Learning Curve: How can we minimize it (caster/divine)

[Xynot2]

There has been a lot of discussion on SP usage. And my main argument (outside of Turbine's pocket) has been the learning curve for newbies.

My personal experience was that reading, talking and playing(watching and following another blue bar) while helpful, didnt make the light turn on anything like actually experiencing it through trial and error along with learning the quests so that I could time out my SP better.

So the question is:
How do we make the learning curve be not so steep for the newbies?

[FrozenNova]

It's fine how it is.
Caster classes have always been highly skill dependent. If you want something less skill dependent, pick a different class. Playing a caster well takes experience, and there's satisfaction in that. We already have sp-potions and echoes of power.

[Xynot2]

It's fine how it is.
Caster classes have always been highly skill dependent. If you want something less skill dependent, pick a different class. Playing a caster well takes experience, and there's satisfaction in that. We already have sp-potions and echoes of power.

This discussion is not about that. While I share your idea, It's about the learning curve involved. Especially if the previously discussed pot timer ever get's implemented.

[Qhualor]

This discussion is not about that. While I share your idea, It's about the learning curve involved. Especially if the previously discussed pot timer ever get's implemented.

Turbine dares not to put timers on pots. It would hurt them financially and the game would be in its biggest uproar since.. since.. i cant remember when.

Talking learning curve, new players need to be grouped with non zergers and helpful players while starting on normal in quests. They need to try out their powers and learn what does what against what mobs. They need to learn the quests and see how much sp is really needed and what spells work best and efficiently, learning how to stretch mana. They need to be in near wipe type situations learning not to panic, thinking fast on their feet and knowing how to handle bad situations. As it all unfolds for them, it makes their playing time more fun and can pick up the pace if they want. They will be a smarter, better player this way i think.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Can only comment on how to play clerics (never played FvSs), Untill lvl 6 when you get Healing Burst use cure wands and only spend sp to heal spikes of damage (most likely in boss fights).

Pick a weapon and use that (even if a caster cleric) untill around lvl 10-12when you start getting good offencive spells and decent sp pool.

Don't chase anyone, they don't stay near you or the group they deserve to die :)

[Franke]

Arguably reducing the learning curve, if it's really possible without experience and a development of knowledge and tactics, would merely reduce a newer players dedication to the game. If such information could be effectively imparted to people, then, surely their potential personal need to overcome adversity in the game and "beat that quest where I always die" would be quickly met and they'd become bored sooner?

From a personal perspective I agree that the learning curve is high, but that is due to the complexity of the game, which in and of itself is why so many become captivated, long term players. I fail to see how it would help anyone if the system were made easier to account for a more rapid development of player skill. I'm aware that you didn't suggest that anything should be simplified ,but, short of running a training program, I don't see any other way to accomplish what you ask.

[arkonas]

i agree with this. Player guides are needed for these type of questions. no one learns anything if they cant use their spells/abilities if everything is dead.

[Kinerd]

I think Echoes of Power has gone a long way to solving this kind of thing. It lets the caster continue to contribute while very strongly impressing on them that not (almost) running out of SP is important.

[susiedupfer]

New players would be much better off learning the game on a melee toon first. They will learn the basic game mechanics, dungeon layouts, party politics, basic roles, etc, in a less stressful role. Especially if they intend to play a divine. This saves many, many pots and much gnashing of teeth.

Then, and only then, they should talk to someone who plays at the very least one capped toon of the class they want to play to get the straight story on how to build and play that toon.

How do we deal with it if this is not possible? Trial and error, just like always.

[hit_fido]

New players would be much better off learning the game on a melee toon first.

I might have believed this a couple years ago but now I'd tell any new player to start out as a fleshy palemaster and point them to a sensible build here on the forum to follow as far as feat selection. At the low levels they can still be (almost as) effective as a melee swinging a two hander if their SP does run down to echoes, but they'll still get a sense for how fast their SP goes and start learning to moderate. Once the two hander starts to become less useful they can continue to fine tune SP management. Coincidentally they'll get wraith form around that time as well and much of the stress over basic survival will go away, leaving them to focus even more on learning which spells to use and when. Running on normal or hard instead of elite as they learn the game would be solid advice as well. Playing the upper levels will be so much easier (and funner) for them than if their first experience in DDO is the agony of a non-evasion non-self healing character without any silver flame pots or greensteel displacement clickies to use.

Contrast that with trying to teach a new player to keep their first life barbarian or fighter alive - without essentially saying "let someone else keep you up" which I hope we can agree is dubious advice.

[Qhualor]

New players would be much better off learning the game on a melee toon first. They will learn the basic game mechanics, dungeon layouts, party politics, basic roles, etc, in a less stressful role. Especially if they intend to play a divine. This saves many, many pots and much gnashing of teeth.

Then, and only then, they should talk to someone who plays at the very least one capped toon of the class they want to play to get the straight story on how to build and play that toon.

How do we deal with it if this is not possible? Trial and error, just like always.

i dont think it really matters what class a new player should play. practice makes perfect. i play all dps toons and when i tr'd my main into a monk for past lives, i had no clue her first life what i was doing. it took me until level 16 to get a grasp on the class and what it can do. on her 3rd life as a monk that should end tonight :) i still havent been able to understand the full potential the class can do.

when i first started out in this game, i played a rogue. by level 10, my trap skills sucked and people started avoiding me knowing how bad i was at traps. it would have helped if i knew people that could help me, but i didnt and learned the hard way on my own. i thought that eventually by 20 i would get all the Rogue enhancements, so i was just taking them in order down the list. my gimp is now a bank toon.

my next build was a cleric. i didnt group with anyone until around level 6. i didnt know about function keys and i had just learned about hot bars from previously playing my rogue. i tried right clicking on players when they needed heals. again, people avoided me and dropped group many times because i sucked. by 15 i realized i was a battle cleric. i was always in the middle of fights helping fight and mass healing. i was much better at this kind of playstyle, but i grew tired of being told to stay in the back. thats when i decided to play a barbarian and turn my cleric into a bank toon.

new players need guidance no matter what class they play. remember, these are players that eventually will probably end up in our groups down the road. the way they are taught or not taught could ultimately become positive additions to the group or negative because they didnt know any better and we really cant fault them for it if noone is willing to make the effort or take the time. we want new players to feel welcome and having fun, which is good for Turbine and good for us when we are looking for groups.

[Kmnh]

I find the melee learning curve a lot steeper than the caster one.The gap between the average melee and the good ones is enourmous.

Casters hardly ever find themselves in a position where they need to know how to move, avoid damage, kite, and all that stuff. Why move in a precise way if your quickened heal/reconstruct is always there to save you? Why learn to calculate the optimal sequence of spells if wail/implosion will clear most of the baddies around you in a way that you can't control? When the game does put the caster in that position, he doesn't know what to do, because he never had to learn.

All the good casters I know have good melee alts. The skills you pick up while playing melees turns casters into unkillable juggernauts.

[Failedlegend]

Honestly if you don't want a complex game and your not prepared for a steep learning curve than this game...scratch that the majority of DnD based games are not for you.

[Slymenstraa]

I always played melee. Finally ade a sorc and loved it, because i had to learn how to play it. I lesser reincarnated at 16 to fix my mitakes and she became even more enjoyable. If learning is boring to someone, then this game is not for them. I have been playing for 3 years and i learn new stuff everyday, and guess what...... it's cool to learn a new tactic or trick to be a better player.

[redoubt]

I think learning will happen with a mix of group types.

As a newbie:

1. Actually run some stuff on normal. Don't join every elite BB LFM you see. Most of those will be zerg fests. You may catch the occasional group that will slow down and teach, but most likely it will just be frustrating for you. Or, you won't have to heal at all, and you will zoom to level not learning anything...

2. Look at the guild tags of people you run with. When you see one frequently and you like those people, join them. Guilds are a great place to learn. They are more likely to slow down to teach you, because they figure you will be better later and thus more helpful to the guild.

3. Occasionally, run with the fast group to see what is possible and what you like. Might give some ideas of what to build for. Then take what you see there back to your normal group and practice it there.

[Zeruell]

So the question is:
How do we make the learning curve be not so steep for the newbies?

Make them play Dwarf Fortress. No learning curve amounts to anything but a speedbump after that, barring something like EVE or Perpetuum.

[AbyssalMage]

If you remember from school, there are 3 styles of learning:
Kinetic
Audio
Visual

Not everyone learns the same way. So there is no one way to reduce the learning curve honestly. Personally, I believe experience is the best teacher. But I am also a kinetic learner.

Personally (And in somewhat correct order):
Experience
Failure
Forums
YouTube Video's
Grouping

This is how I have learned to play my Blue Bars. I could go into more detail if people would like but honestly, Blue Bars are not too difficult (Although I most definitely am still learning individual differences on each of my Blue Bar toons :) )

So to answer your question after all of that rambling. The best way to reduce the learning curve of Blue Bar classes is to implement all 3 learning styles above!

A forum posting [visual] with pertinent details of the min. gear, feats, skills, ect...Including optional ways of doing things for each level.
A YouTube video [visual/audio] of said Forum posting explaining over a mic what you wrote in action.
A follow up to any questions about said posting/video [visual]. The one thing that you have to remember is that you may forget something because you consider it "common knowledge" when the fact is, it is not common knowledge to the inexperienced player yet

[bibimbap]

There has been a lot of discussion on SP usage. And my main argument (outside of Turbine's pocket) has been the learning curve for newbies.

My personal experience was that reading, talking and playing(watching and following another blue bar) while helpful, didnt make the light turn on anything like actually experiencing it through trial and error along with learning the quests so that I could time out my SP better.

So the question is:
How do we make the learning curve be not so steep for the newbies?

Mentoring, it's made a world of difference in my play :)

[sandypaws]

Seconded on the mentoring. Find newer casters in lower groups when you're doing your 10000th TR, and if it looks like they need suggestions, offer them. Personally, I find newbies to be very enthusiastic and very hungry to learn cool tricks. They're generally a real pleasure to run with.

[Zenako]

I will echo the mentoring thing, with a twist. One thing I used to do on many of my casters, was offer to let the other casting player, (who often seemed to be struggling to figure out what to do and frequently was ending up casting the same spells that has already been cast) was to cover the party on the quest and let them use their whole range of spells to do other things and experiment and learn without the pressure of not letting the party die. This opened their eyes to the potential of many (for clerics) non healing spells. (I was usually on a Spellsinger CC bard back when CC lasted in those lessons and could buff, song, and heal most parties with ease giving the newer caster time to learn.) I recall joining one group in House J and the party leader was reluctant to tackle Redwillow since it appeared to be "overlevel" at that time. I assured them, we could do it. I also convinced the cleric to try other spells like Soundburst on some mobs pointing out how casters have poor Fort saves generally and that those were the most dangerous.

A good session or two of game knowledge passing can transform a mindless semi effective healbot into an actual full blood cleric.

Same thing with Arcanes. There are more spells than Scorching Ray or MM in the books. Use the right tools for the quest. Remind a wizard caster that they can swap spells at any shrine they use (not just in town) to bring better tools to bear on the quest. (That goes for Clerics and Artificers too!). Not doing so is forfeiting one of the major powers of the flexible casting classes, being able to changes spells on the fly so to speak.

Show casters how to use their spells efficiently. Yes you might be able to overkill that mob 5 seconds quicker with another two spells, but if it is already dying, let it die without wasting blue bars.

Part of the mentality problem is when players come from other games, where things like Spell Points and Hit Points recharge on their own quickly between fights, they get used to going all out in every fight. It takes time to really grasp how the game changes in DDO without those features. A big part of early DDO was resource management, but many of the changes over the years have knocked that part almost out of the game. (any full time archer these days has conjured arrows or bolts most of the time, lots of items or feats/enhancements recharge things like Turns or Songs with time, hit point and spell point pools are only a mouse click away if things get tough. This might all make for a better commerical product, but it has taken away part of the strategy aspect of the game.)

[smatt]

Send PM's to Chai, Madmatt, and the 3 others from that thread that think there should be timers on SP pots. I'm sure they will be more than willing to group with and mentor EVERY bluebar that comes along. Just think how uber they will be! :D

[Lonnbeimnech]

You aren't going to learn much by grouping, because the good casters don't need the dungeon scaling, and the really good casters bring dungeon scaling by duel boxing (have to get through them pally past lives on their main somehow), ie they don't usually group, it slows them down.

The best way to learn is to dive in, solo elites... respawn at the tavern, and try again. You'll eventually figure it out.

[Xynot2]

Send PM's to Chai, Madmatt, and the 3 others from that thread that think there should be timers on SP pots. I'm sure they will be more than willing to group with and mentor EVERY bluebar that comes along. Just think how uber they will be! :D

+1 rep cuz I sneezed coffee

And to everyone else- these are AWESOME responses.