More "In the Demon's Den", less "Rusted Blades"

[nibel]

Not talking about XP here.

I'm talking about how the quest "In the Demon's Den" is actually VERY different at normal, hard, and elite.

For those that don't know this quest, you enter a demonic cave where a Marilith is trying to do a ritual to summon more demons to fight for her. She is being protected by a forcefield sustained by three elder efreets, and you need to defeat the efreets before you are able to defeat her.

At normal, she sit on the altar, and only after you defeat the efreets, she goes after you.

At Hard, the second you are spotted, she starts to chase you down. You can't damage her while the efreets are alive, so you need someone to keep her distracted.

At elite, not only she gives chase, but the efreets are revived if there are other efreets alive. So, you need to get rid of the efreets at the same time. Some people split up (like Tempest Spine's Fire and Ice), others pull the efreets to the center for the kill (like Shroud part 2).

A small change to the quest, but it changes completelly how you should run it. You can't get a group for normal (let's say, without a tank), and run hard instead, because you have to account for the marilith chasing you.

There is at least two other quest that changes on elite: "A Small Problem", the first quest on the Phiarlan Carnival chain. On elite, you need to fight the demonic wolves that were keeping an eye on Brawnpits this whole time, while on the lower difficulty settings, just there is no endfight. "In the Flesh", the last quest on the Harbringer of Madness chain, also features a very different endfight if you go on elite because of all the beholders around removing your buffs.

We need more quests that are harder not because of inflated numbers, but because there is something there that makes you life harder. Eg, on "House of Rusted Blades": Run on Normal, and you only need to rust the Blademaster's weapon. Run on Hard, and you need to rust every weapon rack around. Run on Elite, and you need to rust every weapon around and defeat the matron.

More objectives isn't the only way to make things harder. Adding traps, different mobs, or simply changing some spell selection/elemental damage around makes the quest kinda unpredictable, in the case you are distracted. Let's say, that fire trap on "Kobold's New Ringleader" could deal fire, cold, or acid damage, randomly. The Agility Test on "Crucible" might spawn illusory spikes instead of their normal blades (requiring will saves), or throw some very dangerous almost-instant poison damage (requiring fortitude saves or neutralize poison buffs), since the test itself is based on speed, and not evasion. You might need to see the traps before choosing who will run it.

Some more uses for Religious/Arcane/Wilderness lore might be useful for this too. Like adding a neutral NPC at the start of "Purge the Heretics", and if you have religious lore, might even turn the quest into a dialogue chain against the bosses, where you try to convert them to the Silver Flame. If you have enough skill for it, you got good XP without fights. If you fail, you trigger the current quest, where the devouts try to defende themselves against you.

[MRMechMan]

Yea but that takes a lot more work.

[CaptainSpacePony]

/signed and +1

[Ilindith]

Few quests are like that and it's perfect as it is.

Honestly, making every quest more complicated for the player on elite would just make content annoying to run.

[ZeebaNeighba]

Few quests are like that and it's perfect as it is.

Honestly, making every quest more complicated for the player on elite would just make content annoying to run.If it's too complicated run hard, or normal.

Bbecause imo elite doesn't give the challenge it should. It just beefs up mob HP and damage and basically makes people use the same strategy but slower and more resourcefully.

[sirgog]

Signed, but I'd rather more monster/trap mechanics that can be ignored on Normal, hurt on Hard, and will obliterate you on Elite if not reacted to properly.

Somewhat like the Shroud blades were for a few weeks - Normal you could ignore them or heal through them (you'd lose squishy players sometimes but the raid would still win), Hard you had to get out but had some margin for error, and Elite you needed to get out of the blades and there was little room for error.

Other than Normal blades doing a little too much damage for level 17 characters, I think that was a perfect setup. (If the Normal blades had been dropped to ~50 damage per second players stood in them it would have been perfect, the 70-100 or so was just a little too high for the squishies)



Edit: I'd also rather see monster stats be higher on Epic Normal and Epic Hard than they are now, but at the expense of their being fewer monsters (and in particular less dangerous combinations of mobs). The automatic scaling up and down is really not working - some mobs in EN (fire mephits in particular but really any elemental damage caster mob) are more dangerous than whole packs of melee mobs.

[SealedInSong]

Few quests are like that and it's perfect as it is.

Honestly, making every quest more complicated for the player on elite would just make content annoying to run.

Ilindith, if you want the same mindless grind for the majority of quests I have to disagree. I'd prefer the ratio to be reversed and have almost all quests as the OP describes and few quests stay static.

The OP made a very salient point about how the game design can be thought of differently. Commendable.

Subtle increases in difficulty caused by shifting tactics is infinitely preferable to me compared to just inflating enemy hit points and incoming damage.

[SardaofChaos]

Yea but that takes a lot more work.

... and?

[FranOhmsford]

1. Small Problem - The Mutt fight at the end is in my opinion as nothing compared to the Tieflings on the rocks {They only appear on Elite too}.

2. Changing Korthos, Harbour or even Marketplace quests would be make-work {i.e. Not worth the time and effort}.

3. If we're all agreed that Small Problem is the first quest of this type in the game {and in my opinion at least - The hardest lvl 5 quest!}. Then maybe the Devs could start with 2 from each of the lvl 6-10 quests - Perhaps:

Lvl 6 - Gladewatch Outpost and Purge the Heretics?

Lvl 7 - The Graverobber {Dread Zombies already have far too many HP on Normal!} & Scoundrel's Run {far too easy as is for a lvl 7 quest}.

Lvl 8 - In Need of Supplies & The Rescue - Changes to Threnal = Yay!

Lvl 9 - The Giant Lieutenants & The Giant's Lair - More Threnalian Changes {Add Favour to Compendium too!}

Lvl 10 - Hold for Reinforcements & The Gate Chamber {You knew I was going to pick these two didn't you?}

Then go for at least one quest of Lvl 11-18 to change where possible?

[nibel]

Signed, but I'd rather more monster/trap mechanics that can be ignored on Normal, hurt on Hard, and will obliterate you on Elite if not reacted to properly.

My only problem with this kind of scaling is that it is very latency-dependent. If you are with a good latency, you see no problems and can actually react in a fraction of a second. Otherwise, you just THINK you escaped because you saw the attack/trap missing you, but the server register a hit and there was nothing you could do to prevent.


3. If we're all agreed that Small Problem is the first quest of this type in the game {and in my opinion at least - The hardest lvl 5 quest!}. Then maybe the Devs could start with 2 from each of the lvl 6-10 quests - Perhaps:

That, or just using this philosophy on the next quests they are making right now (U19, maybe). No need to go back and change every quest for that, but would be awesome on the next ones.

I know it is unrealistic to expect them to just rewrite every single quest to fit on this suggestion. There are even some quests that can't be changed at all to fit this style. The suggestion is mostly whishful thinking into the future, and maybe changing some key popular quests, like rusted blades (that most people farm on normal anyway) or Delara.

[Pantronic]

We need more quests that are harder not because of inflated numbers, but because there is something there that makes you life harder. Eg, on "House of Rusted Blades": Run on Normal, and you only need to rust the Blademaster's weapon. Run on Hard, and you need to rust every weapon rack around. Run on Elite, and you need to rust every weapon around and defeat the matron.

Ugh no.. that isn't harder, it's just more annoying.

I'm sure most people fight the matron on whatever level for a chance at a Seal, but skip rusting all the weapons because the rewards for doing it aren't worth the time. I, for one, am very happy it's an optional and hope it stays that way... unless it's changed to give way more XP than it does.

[Ilindith]

If it's too complicated run hard, or normal.

Bbecause imo elite doesn't give the challenge it should. It just beefs up mob HP and damage and basically makes people use the same strategy but slower and more resourcefully.

There's no such thing as running normal or hard anymore ever since they added bravery bonuses.

Sure if they were to do something like that it would be interesting, the first four of five runs. Then you'd just get annoyed that you have to do five times more work to get your quest done as opposed to normal or hard.

Just think of two of the quests the OP mentionned, Demon's Den and In the Flesh. How many people actually run those more than once on elite? Or even run them at all? Apply this to every quest and I can assure you that people will get tired of running them pretty quick.

[jandhaer]

Personally I'd rather they just take the game they have now and fix it. The bugs are getting out of hand. People are never happy about anything and always want things tweaked the way they think everything should be (usually to their benefit). I just want the **** to work period.

[FranOhmsford]

That, or just using this philosophy on the next quests they are making right now (U19, maybe). No need to go back and change every quest for that, but would be awesome on the next ones.

I know it is unrealistic to expect them to just rewrite every single quest to fit on this suggestion. There are even some quests that can't be changed at all to fit this style. The suggestion is mostly whishful thinking into the future, and maybe changing some key popular quests, like rusted blades (that most people farm on normal anyway) or Delara.

Now personally I'd love to see them change Delera's BUT and this is a BIG BUT!

As you're quite aware Delera's is one of the most popular packs in the game! Any changes would be likely to get right up the noses of a lot of people!

Whereas - Threnal!....
I also mentioned:
Gladewatch
Purge the Heretics
The Graverobber
All quests that could benefit heavily from a change in quest style for Elite - As opposed to what we have now {massively scaled HP & Spell Dmg!}.

I also mentioned Scoundrel's Run - A quest that is quite simply mislabelled {It is not by any stretch of the imagination a Lvl 7 quest}.
Upping Mob HP etc. has done nothing for this quest on Elite.
Putting different challenges in there {just on Elite} would in my view be a vast improvement!
I'd suggest:
1. Changing Scorpions & Bats to Hyenas & Darkfang Spiders {A different challenge - Randomize the Spawn Spots}.
2. Scatter some Scrag Trolls amongst the Minotaurs
3. Randomizing all traps!
4. Changing 2 of the Earth Eles to Air Eles {Yeah this one's nasty}.
5. Keep HP/Dmg etc at Hard difficulty levels for trash {especially the Air Eles}
6. Remaining Earth Eles, Minotaur Berserkers & Scrag Trolls should be given Red-Name status.
7. Minotaur Shaman's should be CC based please {Keep their HP low and NO immunities (esp. Deathward)}.
8. Put Boss Kharja on a Par with say Elite Garos {The Snitch*} - Make it a real fight! - Garos has Spell Casting - Kharja should have Cleave/Great Cleave! {Over-run alone doesn't cut it when he's got no backup - Keep it a one on one fight though.}.


* The Snitch is another quest that could do with changes - As it comes after Small Problem & Partycrashers it is frankly way way too easy comparatively.
I'd go so far as to say that of the Level 5 quests in the game - Every one is significantly more challenging!
Strangely however I've still not found a Rust Monster anywhere else in game that would last more than 2 seconds in a one on one fight with Rusty! {Making him None-Optional on Elite would go some way to boosting this quest.}.

[Tobril]

In the Flesh. How many people actually run those more than once on elite? Or even run them at all?


That was good times.

:)

[Ginarrbrik]

Personally I'd rather they just take the game they have now and fix it. The bugs are getting out of hand. People are never happy about anything and always want things tweaked the way they think everything should be (usually to their benefit). I just want the **** to work period.

bugs? what bugs? :P

but really, i'm not denying them and i'm not saying i don't want them fixed. i definitely do. but we need to have more realistic expectations. the whole 'fix all the bugs before releasing new stuff' argument is starting to get old. it's a lot easier said than done so we'll just need to deal with it. talk about never being happy.

@OP,
/signed. i totally agree that quests need to be more dynamic and challenging. something more interesting than just a beatdown, where each difficulty just tests how well-geared your dps is. i think we could benefit a lot from quests that actually require thought, strategy, and coordination. i know that it's been done in the past such as titan and abbot and it's sad that they don't go over well with some people because they just aren't willing to take the time to learn. of course, with the complication of the quest comes a higher risk of critical bugs, but personally i just say 'oh well.' unique quests are more fun, bugs and all. it's worth it in the end.

[Pantronic]

bugs? what bugs? :P

but really, i'm not denying them and i'm not saying i don't want them fixed. i definitely do. but we need to have more realistic expectations. the whole 'fix all the bugs before releasing new stuff' argument is starting to get old. it's a lot easier said than done so we'll just need to deal with it. talk about never being happy.
.

The argument might be getting old, but it's nevertheless an essential argument. Adding "new stuff" without fixing existing bugs just increases the amount of code affected by the bugs and very often translates directly into more effort--i.e., more time--to fix the bugs than it would have taken before the "new stuff".

Put another way, the longer they don't fix the bugs, the less chance they will ever fix the bugs. And I, for one, do not wish to continue being stuck in walls (just one example) forever. I love getting new stuff too, but not THAT much.

[aarant]

It is to, Ive had more fun in that quest during a tr trying to get a elite completion then any other content in the game(thats taking into account that the xp is almost insulting ur really not in there for xp)And is probally tougher then most lawl eh content on elite.

[ZeebaNeighba]

There's no such thing as running normal or hard anymore ever since they added bravery bonuses.

Sure if they were to do something like that it would be interesting, the first four of five runs. Then you'd just get annoyed that you have to do five times more work to get your quest done as opposed to normal or hard.

Just think of two of the quests the OP mentionned, Demon's Den and In the Flesh. How many people actually run those more than once on elite? Or even run them at all? Apply this to every quest and I can assure you that people will get tired of running them pretty quick.Sucks, doesn't it?

This thread is here so that there is such a thing as normal and hard again. Because either you'll get annoyed with those quests and it will suck for just you, or everyone will get annoyed and will try running normal and hard. Make the change to enough quests and people will run N/H instead of simply avoiding those quests.

[Ivan_Milic]

This and abbot raid are the only quests I never did.
I run in the flesh once per life,if we complete good,if not I move on.
But in the demons den,I have no idea why I never did it,saw lfm maybe once or twice for it,will try to complete it this life.

[nibel]

But in the demons den,I have no idea why I never did it,saw lfm maybe once or twice for it,will try to complete it this life.

One reason is because the quest is very challenging. Even level 25s might have a hard time holding an invulnerable elite marilith (that randomly loses agro) while the rest of the party deal with the efreets.

The second reason is that, even with the quest being free, the quest giver is hidden in a corner of Inspired Quarters.If you don't look the map for the golden chalice, many people miss her completelly.


There's no such thing as running normal or hard anymore ever since they added bravery bonuses.

And honestly, I see that as a problem. I'm a firm believer that an elite completion should be earned, and not granted. Just raising numbers turn the elite completion into a gear check, and not a skill check. It should be a mix of both.

[Dawnsfire]

And honestly, I see that as a problem. I'm a firm believer that an elite completion should be earned, and not granted. Just raising numbers turn the elite completion into a gear check, and not a skill check. It should be a mix of both.

Turbine created that problem. People kept complaining about the amount of xp TRs needed and Madfloyd responded by designing the Bravery Bonus (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3979322&postcount=204). The actual TR bonus part got left out but honestly, who needs the added xp more?

I suspect people will expect elite runs to be accessible in heroic quests as long as the streak xp exists.

[SealedInSong]

Not to sound combative but I don't think we'll get anywhere with this discussion.

I commend the OP and I think the opinion was stated well and that it was pertinent.

On the one hand, you have players that enjoy variety, challenges, commensurate reward for investment, and a sense of achievement. I feel I fall in this camp, and that makes me support the idea of promoting a real sense of difficulty brackets.

Currently, the game is basically one difficulty in heroic levels--elite--and since the devs have shown themselves capable of creating nuances in the difficulty of some quests, I'd appreciate them doing the same for new quests. Similarly, if they could revisit the experience and loot rewards for certain quests of disproportionate reward (Ex: Shadow Crypt) or difficulty (Ex: In the Flesh) and balance them, that would go a long way in making the game feel more satisfying.

On the other hand, we have some players that enjoy grinding out _______ many times with little variation. They likely know how to get a legend reincarnation in the mathematically most efficient combination of only seventy two quests. They probably enjoy the quest Kobold Assault. They probably avoid lots of quests that involve puzzles. I do not feel I fall in this camp.

Anyway, the worst I think that could happen from a comprehensive redistribution of difficulty and reward in the quest system is that people in the latter camp would run hard ad nauseum instead and, with some gumption, could reap even more rewards in elite than previously just by getting some tactics.

[MRMechMan]

I'd /sign the pants off of this if the non-favor rewards from EE were worth it.

As it stands, the 14,000/14,500/15,000 model of xp and the barely better items makes EE a PITA for almost nothing more. >risk should= >reward

[Vellrad]

The change I would suggest is not very hard to implement, and, after all, is not really big.
On elite quests, change some traps from elemental to force, and some casters to use arcane bolt and blasts instead of some elemental spells. There is no resist energy protecting from force damage, so we would have a bit harder quests, and people would stop wailing comlaints about overpowered ship resists. The change would not be massively deadly, as its just 30 more damage ;)

[katz]

funny. the OP mentioned quests that are on my "most hated" list. i have to be bribed with candy and loot to run in the Demon's Den on anything harder than normal, and i outright avoided In The Flesh this life (i finally ended up running it on normal 2 levels later, just to complete the chain)

if ALL quests were like those two... i would probably stop playing. I, laid back staunch supporter who will probably keep playing until the game is closed... would stop playing if the whole game became like those two quests.

[Vellrad]

funny. the OP mentioned quests that are on my "most hated" list. i have to be bribed with candy and loot to run in the Demon's Den on anything harder than normal, and i outright avoided In The Flesh this life (i finally ended up running it on normal 2 levels later, just to complete the chain)


I don't get all that talk about in the flesh. Its a tough quest for sure, but its still a cake walk compared to acute deliruim.

[Syllph]

I'd thought of this before and posted as well, the response I got was something like:

How many people run In the Demon's Den?
How many people run rusted Blades?

That's why it's not done this way.

[nibel]

That, or just using this philosophy on the next quests they are making right now (U19, maybe). No need to go back and change every quest for that, but would be awesome on the next ones.

Wishful thinking?

[droid327]

Wishful thinking?

Dont necro your own posts, bad form...

Especially when its a horrible idea :P

I dont want to see solo quests made unsoloable at Elite because of a change in mechanics. Small Problem is already nigh-on impossible, at-level for Elite Bravery Bonus, because the endfight wolf that delevels you, when at L7 there are no defenses against deleveling. Same with Demon's Den, its utterly unsoloable at Hard or Elite when you're level-appropriate.

If these didnt count for BB (like Devil Assault), its one thing...but otherwise, 80% of the playerbase is just going to ignore the content, so why make it that way? Why waste the resources on a convoluted quest that only appeals to a small percent of the playerbase? Most players dont want a puzzle game, they want an action game. Most players dont like arbitrary mechanics that end up causing frustrating losses more often than satisfying victories.

Just look at Abbott raid....good, useful rewards (ie Quiver), but no one runs it - not because its dangerous, but just because it has funky convoluted mechanics that just arent -fun- to play.

[nibel]

at L7 there are no defenses against deleveling.

Clerics have access to Deathward at level 7. Visor of Flesh Render are ML 7 as well.


Same with Demon's Den, its utterly unsoloable at Hard or Elite when you're level-appropriate.

http://s18.postimg.org/5j34zgne1/Screen_Shot00074.jpg

Not mine (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/407023-Quests-that-cannot-be-done-solo?p=4880452&viewfull=1#post4880452), of course. And before EDs.


Just look at Abbott raid....good, useful rewards (ie Quiver), but no one runs it - not because its dangerous, but just because it has funky convoluted mechanics that just arent -fun- to play.

I think the biggest problem with Abbot is the flagging mechanic. I don't bother to search for sigils on half of my characters.

[droid327]

Clerics have access to Deathward at level 7. Visor of Flesh Render are ML 7 as well.

Not mine, of course. And before EDs.



If you're not a Cleric and dont have Tangleroot? Your only option is to hope someone posts a Potion of Death Ward on the AH, and those are only obtainable from 5x rare Abbott Ring turn-ins in Necro, or a seasonal event. A little bit of rock-paper-scissors gear requirements is OK - things like Deathblock, or Underwater Action, that are acquireable by anyone - but requiring a specific item from one pack to do a quest from another is not.

I dont share your apparent philosophy that Elite should be reserved for geared-out, super-hardcore powergamer types, who can tank a L20 Elite Marilith solo for 15 mins while they herd and take out red-named Efreeti. Elite/EE raids are for those powergamer types, and they're welcome to them, but for non-raid/non-group-specific content, I'm against the "hardcoreification" of the game that takes content away from more casual players just to satisfy someone's need to epeen themselves, AFAICT.

Elite should be a challenge, of course - but one that any class (not just the OP FOTW build), adequately (but not perfectly) geared for the level, and well-versed in their class' playstyle, should be able to accomplish. Gating content doesnt serve the game well at all.

If there was no bonus for running on Elite - if it was the same rewards you got on Hard - then I'd be fine with it being a "super challenge mode" just for bragging rights. But when you give increased rewards for it, its not fair to gate it from a major subset of your playerbase.

[Charononus]

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/davensjournal/sereitei/MotivatorThreadNecro.jpg

[nibel]

If you're not a Cleric and dont have Tangleroot?

You open a group looking for a cleric.


I dont share your apparent philosophy that Elite should be reserved for geared-out, super-hardcore powergamer types

Neither do I.

I said that, right now, most Elite quests are just the same Normal quest, with the mobs having inflated numbers (more HP, more AC, better saves, more damage). That is not increased challenge. Is a gear check. If you have this much HP, you can survive an elite mob beating. If you have this much DPS, you can dispatch the elite mobs quick enough. If you have this much DCs you can land your spells...

Even plain old harbor have differences on difficulties. Hard kobold shamans use Hold Person. Elite Kobold shaman use Bestow Curse and Lightning Bolt.


Elite should be a challenge, of course - but one that any class (not just the OP FOTW build), adequately (but not perfectly) geared for the level, and well-versed in their class' playstyle, should be able to accomplish.

1) That screenshot predates Epic Destinies.

2) I said that this was not my achievment.


If there was no bonus for running on Elite - if it was the same rewards you got on Hard - then I'd be fine with it being a "super challenge mode" just for bragging rights. But when you give increased rewards for it, its not fair to gate it from a major subset of your playerbase.

We had that for a while. People only ran elite once for favor and farmed normal. And it was not a "super challenge mode" because people wanted the favor anyway.

One thing I agree with you. We have different policies. I think Elite should be a difficulty set to be a challenge for good players (not uber) with good gear (not uber). It should be reasonable to run with a full party (but unless it is a guild party with awesome players, they should expect no completion). Soloing an elite quest at level should be an achievment by itself.

This can't be achieved with inflated numbers. Mobs need to vary tactics (like harbor kobolds), quests should be given more objectives (like Small Problem), or mob composition should be changed (like In The Flesh).

[fredericko]

If you mean elite difficulty shouldn't be hpx10, damage output x10, I agree. If you mean you need to jump through three times more hoops to complete than on normal or hard (such as in In the Demon's Den), then no, thank you.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

I'm all for the suggested. But not in F2P quests... I'm a passionate pugger and let me tell you, chances to finish elite Demons Den on lvl in a regular pug are under 50%. And after all the usual chaos, time and resources spent you end up with under-avereige xp and 5 chests full of the crapiest loot you can imagine.

Also, since this quest requires one person to kite and 3 splits to finnish the efeet most of the party should be self-sufficient. That's an unreasonable requirement for any lvl, let alone a heroic lvl quest. (Yeah i guess you could get the all the efeet to the center but how long does that take?)

[nibel]

If you mean elite difficulty shouldn't be hpx10, damage output x10, I agree. If you mean you need to jump through three times more hoops to complete than on normal or hard (such as in In the Demon's Den), then no, thank you.

Don't get too atached to a specific example. I'm asking for the idea, and using it as an example of small stuff that completelly improve difficulty.

In The Flesh is more or less the same quest, but adding beholders on the last fight on elite forces the group to change tactics. One place where something similar can be used is Prison of Planes. We have 8 rooms and require 5 orbs to activate the central room. Require us to get 6 orbs on hard and 7 orbs on elite. Small change, but you reduce the number of rooms that can be skipped.

Madstone can use something similar too. On normal, the Seer is a static NPC on the bottom of the cavern that you should talk to after beating the skeleton mage. On Hard is like today. On Elite you should escort the seer to the crystal (and he should be sturdier, Brawnpits-like).

Basically, anything that means "quest gets harder and not only because mobs are stronger"

[droid327]

1) That screenshot predates Epic Destinies.


FOTW = Flavor Of The Week, not Fury Of The Wild :) There's always OP FOTW builds in any MMO that has builds...

And yes, I think everyone can agree that Elite quests shouldnt just mean bigger bags of HP. But I think where you're losing people is with your ItDD example, because that isnt just "the same as Normal/Hard, but more"...its completely different than Normal/Hard, and thats what people dont like.

Whatever the challenges are on Normal, Hard and Elite should take and make more challenging. If a quest is just a tank n spank, though, where the challenge of the quest is just killing lots of mobs (ie Kobold Assault), that means that Elite is probably just going to be bigger numbers...

Expanding caster spellbooks? Check. But I think every caster mob has expanded spellbooks on Elite, as it is.

Better mob tactics? Sure, though thats often easier said than coded.

Additional objectives? Great, as long as its not doing something completely different than the rest of the quest, ie a stealth objective on an otherwise combat quest, or the caster mobs suddenly change from Evocation, reflex-save spells to instakill will-save spells.

And arbitrary, deus-ex-machina challenges are the worst, your ItDD being the best example. Having an invuln Marilith chasing you around isnt really a challenge, its just an arbitrary obstacle to deal with while you otherwise complete the quest the same way. Same with requiring the Efreeti to all be killed together...it doesnt require more skill, it just requires you to change your playstyle to suit the arbitrary requirements, ie someone tank the Marilith while everyone drags the Efreeti to the central chamber to kill them all together. Thats not how people "play the game" normally, unless the quest mechanics force them to, its not "natural DDO play", and its not even how the quest was presumably designed to be completed. Its a workaround.

[nibel]

FOTW = Flavor Of The Week, not Fury Of The Wild :) There's always OP FOTW builds in any MMO that has builds...

And by OP you mean Over Powered, and not Original Poster. Got it, then.


If a quest is just a tank n spank, though, where the challenge of the quest is just killing lots of mobs (ie Kobold Assault), that means that Elite is probably just going to be bigger numbers...

That I can agree with. But shall we count the tank and spank quests in DDO?

-Cannith Crystal (Korthos)
-Kobold Assault
-Haverdasher
-Baundry 1
-Devil Assault
-Threnal East 3
-Last Stand
-Finding the Path (IQ)
-Weapons Shipment

Did I miss any other quest that is basically "go to a room and stand there killing everything?" There are other quests with some part being tak and spank, but those are the only ones that I remember that are only that.

[aeroplanefly]

/signed.




Some more uses for Religious/Arcane/Wilderness lore might be useful for this too. Like adding a neutral NPC at the start of "Purge the Heretics", and if you have religious lore, might even turn the quest into a dialogue chain against the bosses, where you try to convert them to the Silver Flame. If you have enough skill for it, you got good XP without fights. If you fail, you trigger the current quest, where the devouts try to defende themselves against you.


It would be nice to have more skill, lore, dragonmark, and favor base npc checks in quests to give the quests more dynamics and dimension. One of the House Cannith quests utilizes House Cannith Favor / Dragonmark of Making (and the bluff skill as well). This skill check is a favorite of one of my characters in particular!

Perhaps make some quests with some kind of mandatory skill check... How about Haywire Foundry, for instance.

That warforged buddy that you talk to? On Normal, you just talk to him and he lets you through. On hard, you have to succeed with a bluff/diplo/intim check in order for him to let you through, if you fail, he teleports you into something similar to what happens in Running with the Devils, or summons guards or... arcane oozies. On elite, the same thing would happen, except that most warforged (in VON) are chaotic, and this guy won't talk to anyone that is lawful.. so if your lawful paladin might have a hard time making an intimidation check.

Just a thought, it might not have to be so harsh, I suppose.