Store +4 tome rage - solution?

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Idea: Remove all those items that ppl are raging about on the forums and give option to buy chests from quests.

I have been reading some of these new threads about +4 store tomes now available. I'm personally not thinking about buying one, frankly from my perspective it's too expensive to spend so much on something so irelevant. But I would see it diferently if i had more money to spend, i'm sure. :D

Thinking about it, i realised these are two groups of ppl here. Not the ones with the money and ones without it, but those that have the time and those that don't. And seeing it that way, the current solution is bad.

Why? Because it is not a straight time for money exchange.

While it migh satisfy those that don't have the time as they get a better chance of competing with those that do, those that do have the time will end up beeing forced buying them as well, as they have multiple toons, are hooked to this game more than enyone and must have their toons perfect - no more no less.

So all this rage comes from ppl that have been grinding the same gear over and over, might have gotten some but not as much as they need and ended up frustrated by the grind. Now that there is the easy button to get it they feel forced into buying it. Nobody likes being forced, especially since nobody can not know when turbine will come up with +6,+7,+8... tomes.

Solution that will make everyone happy and maby even make more profit? There is one: remove all these easy buttons from the shop and give solution to BUY CHESTS.

So you can buy one CitW chest for xxx tp. It may be your p2w solution to get your +4 tome but you are going to have to buy them a 100. Because the drop rate is just that low. Now, if you are just trying to catch up to the power gamers, you will buy only a couple. You may not get that +4 tome that you need, but you will probably be content with that Balizarde, Protector of the King and more than capable to keep up with the power gamers.

Your thoughts?

[Mastikator]

Buying chests would be to introduce straight up gambling into the game. There'd probably be people spending huge sums of real money trying to get something useful, and never getting anything due to dumb luck. That is a very, very bad situation, far more dire than what we have now.
/not signed on this, well intentioned, but honestly I think the problem is blown out of proportion, it'll probably be easier to buy the +4 upgrade with plat if they drop if unbound forms.
BTW, do they ever drop unbound?

[Gkar]

those that do have the time will end up beeing forced buying them as well, as they have multiple toons, are hooked to this game more than enyone and must have their toons perfect - no more no less.

This makes no sense at all. Nothing forces those who have the time and inclination to grind from doing so. Heck, you just said you were going to take the grind not buy route and thus you invalidate your own point.



Nobody likes being forced, especially since nobody can not know when turbine will come up with +6,+7,+8... tomes.

Good thing no one is forced to then.


Solution that will make everyone happy and maby even make more profit? There is one: remove all these easy buttons from the shop and give solution to BUY CHESTS.

I hate it. I won't spend 1 cent to buy tickets in a lottery for an online game. To get anyone to do it the price would have to be very trivial. This would cost Turbine a fortune in lost revenue as only fools spend money on scratch and win tickets.

It might also be considered an "electronic game of chance" in many areas and could possibly be illegal or subject to tax in some parts of the world where Turbine opperates.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Before MOTU & the new epics, having 1 point higher DC could be huge... now, with the high level of power offered by epic destinies its a lot easier to cover for those incremental differences so TBH an extra +1 modifier isn't as vital as before - except maybe in epic elite, and frankly those need more than "just a tiny bit better" relative to epic hard, relying more on tactical & cooperative play than just brute force higher numbers for your DCs.

IMO the big benefit of tomes is (in my experience) to allow qualification for certain feats without having to spend as many build points on them.

[slarden]

Buying chests would be to introduce straight up gambling into the game. There'd probably be people spending huge sums of real money trying to get something useful, and never getting anything due to dumb luck. That is a very, very bad situation, far more dire than what we have now.
/not signed on this, well intentioned, but honestly I think the problem is blown out of proportion, it'll probably be easier to buy the +4 upgrade with plat if they drop if unbound forms.
BTW, do they ever drop unbound?

all the upgrade tomes are bound to account (some may be btc if end reward - not sure).

Most +4 tomes that drop now are unbound.

[shadereaper33]

I gotta say, there is absolutely nothing about this idea that I like, at all. It is far more of a pay to win set up than what we currently have, as it would actually allow you to buy a chance at raid loot without having to do anything at all in game. On top of that, you are paying for a chance at something, which is gambling, and looking at the recent launch of Diablo 3 and all of the controversy over the real money auction house and online gambling, this set up would be far more trouble than it could ever be worth. Every state, and every country, have different rules about gambling and online gambling, which would cause Turbine no end of legal headaches.

/not signed.

[Such755]

+3 tomes are easy to get. There are chests to farm, many are not bound, some raids will offer them on the 20th run (shroud for example) or as random loot (Even REaver's Fate will, I got a +3 str tome there).
Agreed?
Good.

The difference between +3 to +4 tomes? +1 to your spell \ tactical \ assasinate DC, +~20 HP and what else? Difference between 71 to 72 str, 53 necro DC to 54? Minor differences that we can all live with.
Agreed?
Good.

Some people are willing to spend their entire time farming for those tomes because they want their toons to be as best as humanly possible even if the difference is minor. That's fine, it really is, I'm a huge fan of striving for perfection, this is how we advance and enjoy ourselves. But some people don't have the time, so they are given the option to pay for it. Is that so bad?
Are we competing with each other? No. This is not a PvP game, we cooperate with each other, and no one should be envy of anyone for being able to get better things at faster rate.
No one is FORCING ANYONE to get +4 tomes in ANY way, not farm them and not buy them. You can do fine in epic elites without them, assuming you know how to play the game.

We also need to assume that since the money from the DDO store is going to turbine, it will be put into good purposes, such that will give us all better gameplay experience. Is that really so bad?

There is one more thing that money will never buy, that is skill. As someone said before me, in another thread regarding this silly rage about +4 tomes, you can be the richest man on the planet, buy every possible thing from the store through supreme +4 tomes to stacks of 1000 superior SP elixirs, without skill and experience you'll never be good at this game, and you'll never enjoy it.

So I'm asking you, people who are ****ed off, please take a moment to seriously think about this and tell me what is so wrong about being able to buy +4 tomes?

By the way as for the OP's offer, I think it's a very bad idea to let people "buy chests", if someone is paying his good money he should know what he's getting and not buy a cat in a sack. Randomness is terrible in the game but we live with it, but it will NOT Be tolerated in the DDO store.

[hifdfklgdfdkg]

seems like the person who wrote this played wizard101.... because that same idea is currently in wizard101....

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Buying chests would be to introduce straight up gambling into the game. There'd probably be people spending huge sums of real money trying to get something useful, and never getting anything due to dumb luck. That is a very, very bad situation, far more dire than what we have now.
/not signed on this, well intentioned, but honestly I think the problem is blown out of proportion, it'll probably be easier to buy the +4 upgrade with plat if they drop if unbound forms.
BTW, do they ever drop unbound?

Rly? Spending huge sums of money on chest of their own choice and never getting anything useful? What are the chances of that happening? No, you MIGHT have bad luck and not get the very thing that you want. This game is like this you know, and has always been. It's part of the fun.


This makes no sense at all. Nothing forces those who have the time and inclination to grind from doing so. Heck, you just said you were going to take the grind not buy route and thus you invalidate your own point.

Sure it makes sence. One is called perfectionism. Look it up in the dictionary. It's just the one i suffer from. Most ppl have this need to be the best. They want others to recognise it. It's one of the building blocks of the human needs phyramid for god sakes. Are you really going to tell me you never encountered something like this in life?

[Gkar]

Sure it makes sence. One is called perfectionism. Look it up in the dictionary. It's just the one i suffer from. Most ppl have this need to be the best. They want others to recognise it. It's one of the building blocks of the human needs phyramid for god sakes. Are you really going to tell me you never encountered something like this in life?

Perfectionism as you call it becomes a diagnosable mental illness if you are compelled to spend money on things to make yourself feel better. In the absence of a mental illness, no one is forced to do anything because its faster to spend $ on it than do what they have been doing for years to get it for a time investment only.

[Deathdefy]

/not signed

Also, this rage is pretty muted. Not many (any at all?) ragequits in any of the freakout threads. And there were also significantly less freakout threads overall relative to previous new tomes available for purchase. I think the introduction of cosmetic pets provoked a stronger response.

I think most people have accepted (or were resigned to the fact) that since +5s are now the tome-goal of end game play we'd see +4s in the store.

[Doomcrew]

Rly?
Sure it makes sence. One is called perfectionism. Look it up in the dictionary. It's just the one i suffer from. Most ppl have this need to be the best. They want others to recognise it. It's one of the building blocks of the human needs phyramid for god sakes. Are you really going to tell me you never encountered something like this in life?


..... most perfectionists proofread their posts before submitting them .....

[Ginarrbrik]

..... most perfectionists proofread their posts before submitting them .....

Lol!

And as for the petition, /not signed.

[CheeseMilk]

Seems like A pretty Modest Proposal.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

I gotta say, there is absolutely nothing about this idea that I like, at all. It is far more of a pay to win set up than what we currently have, as it would actually allow you to buy a chance at raid loot without having to do anything at all in game. On top of that, you are paying for a chance at something, which is gambling, and looking at the recent launch of Diablo 3 and all of the controversy over the real money auction house and online gambling, this set up would be far more trouble than it could ever be worth. Every state, and every country, have different rules about gambling and online gambling, which would cause Turbine no end of legal headaches.

/not signed.

This idea is a response to more and more items comming to ddo store. Currently we have what? +4/+5 tomes, +2 fate tome. So we already have the most valued items out there.

My idea is initial. I never claimed not to ban some things from the purchased chests.

If ppl want to spend extreme amounts of money and not even play this game all i can say to them is tywm. Less lag, more profit for turbine. Win-win solution.

[rimble]

So you can buy one CitW chest for xxx tp. It may be your p2w solution to get your +4 tome but you are going to have to buy them a 100. Because the drop rate is just that low. Now, if you are just trying to catch up to the power gamers, you will buy only a couple. You may not get that +4 tome that you need, but you will probably be content with that Balizarde, Protector of the King and more than capable to keep up with the power gamers.

Most of the complaints seem to be centered on being able to buy raid loot, which appears to me to be an opinion stuck in the past because these tomes are no longer raid loot. Regardless, your proposal to address these peoples concerns...is to sell raid loot? I think you are expanding on their fears, not addressing them, with this idea.

As someone who bought two Supreme +3s, but is balking at the Supreme +3 to +4 upgrade to due what I see as unfair pricing, I can say there is no way I would pay to play this sort of lottery. I'm already paying to avoid the normal chest grind lottery, that's the whole point.

[SableShadow]

If ppl want to spend extreme amounts of money and not even play this game all i can say to them is tywm. Less lag, more profit for turbine. Win-win solution.

Bad idea.
This isn't a gym membership, where fewer people = better service.
In an MMO, players are not just revenue, they're content.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

..... most perfectionists proofread their posts before submitting them .....

I'm a selective perfectionist :D You should see my room. I call it creative mess :)

Sorry, not my native language.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Bad idea.
This isn't a gym membership, where fewer people = better service.
In an MMO, players are not just revenue, they're content.

Quite right. You ofc start with the assumption all the people out there are willing to spend incredible ammounts of money on something they do not plan to use?

What i'm proposing is a model that has been in Need for Speed World for years and some person mentioned Wizard101. I'm not talking about something not tested and uncertain to work.

[Glad]

All i can say stabs is :D
You really need some sleep

[TempestAlphaOmega]

Idea: Remove all those items that ppl are raging about on the forums and give option to buy chests from quests.

.....................

Your thoughts?

Batting around ideas is alway nice, you never know when you might uncover a gem worth keeping.

Sorry but I don't think this is a keeper.

I understand that you think its a great idea that has already been proven to work elsewhere. I on the otherhand do not think this is a good idea for DDO nor is it something I would participate in.

Thanks for trying though.

[rvrtrnce]

I haven't logged in since BlackOPS 2 came out so I'm out of the loop here...

Are +4 tomes REALLY for sale in the turbine store????

[Silverleafeon]

I gotta say, there is absolutely nothing about this idea that I like, at all. It is far more of a pay to win set up than what we currently have, as it would actually allow you to buy a chance at raid loot without having to do anything at all in game. On top of that, you are paying for a chance at something, which is gambling, and looking at the recent launch of Diablo 3 and all of the controversy over the real money auction house and online gambling, this set up would be far more trouble than it could ever be worth. Every state, and every country, have different rules about gambling and online gambling, which would cause Turbine no end of legal headaches.

/not signed.

+1

/not signed

/not reading rest of thread


.

[CheeseMilk]

I haven't logged in since BlackOPS 2 came out so I'm out of the loop here...

Are +4 tomes REALLY for sale in the turbine store????

Yup. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=4786600#post4786600)

[Tenchi]

The last thing we want is degenerating DDO to a trading card game where we just spend more to have a shot at upgrading our toons; not to mention how much griefing would that make when people spend real life money and get absolute junk; and what stops Turbine from internally manipulating those "Purchased Chest" loot tables to make you buy more? At this point, the DDO Store as a Store is good as is; I'd rather not have it turn into a DDO Slot Machine.

I agree with the existence of the problem, but I don't think this is a good solution

/not signed

[Arnhelm]

Seems like A pretty Modest Proposal.
...but, will the chests be Irish?

[Hydrosteel51]

I played an MMO a while ago in which the cash shop sold "boxes" that each had a chance of dropping the new item in question (cosmetic outfit, mount, &c.), one of the older store items, a semi-rare item that could be obtained in-game (something one could reasonably grind out within the span of a couple of hours), or a whole load of common items (the equivalent of getting 100,000 +3 arrows). The new, shiny items had less than a 1% chance of actually appearing in said boxes, but were completely unbound in terms of selling or trading afterwards.

The drama that happened as a result, while expected, was of an astonishing amount. I knew someone who spent almost ten grand and never got the mount he wanted; the next mount--inflated stats and all--was released when he was still trying to get the old one; he lost his job over his obsession. Someone feigned a relationship with another person in-game, luring the other party in with promises to move halfway across the globe and marry the player, all just to manipulate the person into spending literally thousands of dollars to get a mount before mailing it to an alt account and vanishing into thin air. Then again, I also know people who spent less money than that to get a car, so I suppose it's all relative. Also, this is the same game with a mechanic that allows the leader of a coalition of guilds to challenge and kill anyone in a public (non-pvp) area at will with virtually no negative repercussions other than that ability being put on a brief timer (picture a lv25 draconic sorc squishing lowbies in Korthos and no one complaining about it because it's the norm), so I suppose it's an extreme example.

Far be it from me to tell someone where to dispose of his or her money... but I'm sorry, this doesn't sound like a particularly good idea. If you think the rage over the availability of tomes in the store is bad, just picture what would happen with people complaining that they dropped hundreds or thousands of dollars on epic elite chests, only to be rewarded with a good old-fashioned box o' rocks.

[CheeseMilk]

...but, will the chests be Irish?

The Tomes will be.

Om nom nom.

[Cyr]

Pretty bad idea OP.

Oh and thought Turbine already put something like this in Lotro?

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Ok, ok :D

To tell you the truth, i never figured any of you would agree. :P

But let's compare these two approaches. Selling specific items vs. selling random items. Think it's by now quite certain, you disagree with both options because they mean you can pay to win.

First, let's try to define "win". To be the best in specific area right? Best as in better than everybody else around, right? It doesn't mean second best or third best, it means the best. As in having the highest DC, most DPS etc.

Now in order to be the best, you need specific items, not just anything. Specific items like +4 tome. Now we never discussed pricing of my chest, but i'd say in order to be the best, using my approach you would need to spend 100x more money in order to pay to win. In order to be just good, and catch up to ppl with more spare time, you would not need to spend much $.

p2w ppl will still get their way, yes, but not everyone would have the $ to pay to win. It would also increase revenue to turbine, meaning more content for us and a better game.

I can see ppl inclined to p2w wouldn't like this idea. :P

[TempestAlphaOmega]

.....you disagree with both options because they mean you can pay to win.


No, P2W actually has nothing to do with why I think this is a bad idea.



.....Now we never discussed pricing of my chest, but i'd say in order to be the best, using my approach you would need to spend 100x more money in order to pay to win. In order to be just good, and catch up to ppl with more spare time, you would not need to spend much $.


So your clarification of your proposal is still the same thing, to increase $ for Turbine while annoying the majority of the players who would buy specific items from the store by turning purchases into a lottery?


Once again thanks for trying but I don't see this as a good idea either for Turbine or the majority of it's player base.


Edit:



p2w ppl will still get their way, yes, but not everyone would have the $ to pay to win.


This is just a really bad idea. If you have an environment where P2W does exist (which I am not saying DDO does or does not) it is my opinion that you want to make it more accessible to players (i.e. costs are trivial) than the other side of the coin where only a very few players are in a position to buy their way to a level that no one else can attain.

[Gkar]

But let's compare these two approaches. Selling specific items vs. selling random items. Think it's by now quite certain, you disagree with both options because they mean you can pay to win.

That is by no means certain, in fact its outright wrong.

Selling specific items in the store is fine (although everyone has their opinion on WHICH items should be in the store).

Selling a lottery ticket is not fine, is bad customer service, and may be illegal.

The only "Pay to win" in this game is purchasing the expansion pack or epic destinies (can you buy those without the pack?). There are no other items in the store that qualify as pay to win.


First, let's try to define "win". To be the best in specific area right? Best as in better than everybody else around, right? It doesn't mean second best or third best, it means the best. As in having the highest DC, most DPS etc.


See, you just made my point for me. The only thing in this game that can be bought for $ that can lead to you being better than those who haven't paid money is the expansion/epic destinies. Everything else can be obtained by someone who just plays the game and spends no $.



Now in order to be the best, you need specific items, not just anything. Specific items like +4 tome. Now we never discussed pricing of my chest, but i'd say in order to be the best, using my approach you would need to spend 100x more money in order to pay to win. In order to be just good, and catch up to ppl with more spare time, you would not need to spend much $.

I don't think you have a firm grasp on basic economics. As a luxury item, game pricing is price elastic (possibly highly elastic, possibly highly elastic within range). Basically that means while LOTS of people might pay $1 for hair dye in store, almost no one will pay $100. In such situations you set the price as close as to the equilibrium point as you can so you charge as much as you can without pricing yourself out and reducing your total revenue (that's right, sometimes lower price means more money in total).

Now, keeping that in mind, While people might pay $25-50 for that guarenteed supreme +4 tome, they will not pay $2500-5000 for it, especially since they could spend that much and STILL not have it (beyond one or two stupid rich people). Your ideal will make them less money as no one in their right mind would buy.

Just think about it, people pay $1-5 for a lottery ticket that can win tens of million of REAL dollars. What makes you think they would even pay $1 for a chance to win a non existant item? The price of the chest would have to be trivial, say 10-50 TP. Going with the high side of 50 TP, a that point people might be willing to buy 100 chests, but wait now, 100x50=5000. Huh, so we give the players a long frustrating series of clicks with a high store volume only to put them right back where we could have started them, with a guarenteed pull and some quick money for Turbine. Add to that if they have 10 characters they might be willing to pay 5000TP x 10 ($250-500 for Turbine!) to buy all +4s, but they sure as hell won't open 10000 chests - meaning a minor lowering of their in game power and a HUGE revenue loss to Turbine. Basically at that point you might as well just not put them in the store.

Nah, nothing about your idea is a good thing.


but not everyone would have the $ to pay to win. It would also increase revenue to turbine, meaning more content for us and a better game.p

Turbine's choice to sell these $ for CONVINIENCE items in store prings in money now, and not everyone has to pay to get the items. Thus, you should be happy with the +4 tomes in store by your own logic.


I can see ppl inclined to p2w wouldn't like this idea. :P

I can see people inclined to understand business and human nature not to like your idea.

[nayozz]

i am that kind of guy that do not buy ddo store tomes, and when he finds an unbound tome he doesnt have... he just sell it for cash (and use the cash to heal scroll, rez scroll and such when questing)

i sold many +3 tomes i could have used on my main and only toon, but i just needed platinum more :D

i think the +4 tome are perfect ! there are people with much cash awaiting to spend it, and ddo needs cash to keep going... i am happy when someone helps ddo and buys a tome, especially a supreme one.

regarding myself, i spent money on this game cause i really liked it, now i am much more casual, i do not always log in...
i just do 1 or 2 quests before logging out, i am reading the forum from time to time to know about the release date of the enchantment pass...

i think that if exist someone who is starting to play ddo, enjoys it, and has the cash... if he would buy a 32pts unlock + supreme +4 ability... he would have my gratitude for supporting the game.

that +4 tome helps especially with extra hitpoints and +2 saves when you do not have minos, greensteel hp, greater false life, con +6, and a nice resist +5 + save ritual + greater parrying or exceptional resists...

also it helps you to qualify for greater and superior two weapon fighting and improved precise shot.

this is just my 2 cents

[shadereaper33]

Ok, ok :D

To tell you the truth, i never figured any of you would agree. :P

But let's compare these two approaches. Selling specific items vs. selling random items. Think it's by now quite certain, you disagree with both options because they mean you can pay to win.

First, let's try to define "win". To be the best in specific area right? Best as in better than everybody else around, right? It doesn't mean second best or third best, it means the best. As in having the highest DC, most DPS etc.

Now in order to be the best, you need specific items, not just anything. Specific items like +4 tome. Now we never discussed pricing of my chest, but i'd say in order to be the best, using my approach you would need to spend 100x more money in order to pay to win. In order to be just good, and catch up to ppl with more spare time, you would not need to spend much $.

p2w ppl will still get their way, yes, but not everyone would have the $ to pay to win. It would also increase revenue to turbine, meaning more content for us and a better game.

I can see ppl inclined to p2w wouldn't like this idea. :P

I was going to make a long, drawn out post detailing why you are wrong in just about every way possible here, but Gkar went ahead and did it for me, so thanks for that :).

Seriously though, the problem with your idea has absolutely nothing to do with pay to win, the problem is that your idea replaces a guaranteed x TP for y item, with an x TP for z% chance at y item. Given the horrendous drop rates that are common throughout DDO, the price on these things would have to be a few TP at most for anyone to consider ever buying one. Also, this idea exacerbate the one thing that all the people screaming "pay2win" are worried about, and that is the selling of high-end, raid level items for cash.

Also, on top of all of this, is the fact that you are providing a service that is effectively gambling (paying x amount of money for a chance at a desired reward) not only to people in multiple different states and countries, that all have their own internet gambling laws, but you are also providing this service to minors with no age verification at all. Completely disregarding the functionality and desirability of your idea, the legal complications alone would guarantee that this idea would never work.

[Qhualor]

If these things were to be removed from the store, like a few years ago when there was no store, certain changes would need to be done.

Droprates adjusted fairly
Xp adjusted fairly
Fun and challenge factor
Every 20 completions per cent increase for named loot
Loot scaled appropriately for the level range
Loot that is worth acquiring for all classes
Guarantee of at least 2 named items in chests for every completion
Increased chance of named loot on hard and higher chance on elite

By making raids worth running, entertaining and the feel of grind taken away, money will still be spent and the content will continue to be run. Certain things can be still bought in the store. I can live with fluff stuff, xp pots, sp pots and other things along those lines. I feel like this way would also keep the interest going long term.

[MrChipinator]

And while we're at it, let's allow players to be able to buy insta-completion ceremonial jack-rabbits when they first step into a quest/raid. That way they will be teleported to the end of the quest where they can just buy end chests. Or better yet, don't have quests anymore, just have the option to buy TR's and Raid Gear Bundles at Korthos Island. That way we don't have to waste our time trying to do things multiple times, we can just enjoy the merits of having everything done right away and move on.

By doing this, you won't have to even run quests to get loot at the end, and can just fiat everything and all the play time to be uber geared and completionists.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

That is by no means certain, in fact its outright wrong.

Selling specific items in the store is fine (although everyone has their opinion on WHICH items should be in the store).

Selling a lottery ticket is not fine, is bad customer service, and may be illegal.

I'm selling a chest, not your tome. I think i have made it clear many times so far that i am not selling tomes. If you don't like it say so - "I want my tome and that's why i dislike your sistem!" :D

This is not lottery as you always get exactly what you buy - a chest. Again, no promisses on getting a tome. It's more like a kinder egg. You can't be sure what toy you will get, but you can be sure there will be one inside.

Just out of curiosity, plz. give examples on lottery meaning bad customer service & being illegal.


The only "Pay to win" in this game is purchasing the expansion pack or epic destinies (can you buy those without the pack?). There are no other items in the store that qualify as pay to win.

Agreed on destinies, but it's not the only thing p2w. You should know by now that that in this game little things stack and make up a whole. The difference between a caster that fails only on roll of 1 and a caster that fails on 1 & 2 is DOUBLE. There is a win right there.


See, you just made my point for me. The only thing in this game that can be bought for $ that can lead to you being better than those who haven't paid money is the expansion/epic destinies. Everything else can be obtained by someone who just plays the game and spends no $.

What are you smoking and can i get some of that? :D Btw. epic destinies can also be obtained by anyone spending no $.


I don't think you have a firm grasp on basic economics...

I have NO grasp on basic economics. I observed this same sistem applied for years in Need for Speed World, another "f2p" game. A game still alive and growing. I know people that have spent much money on this "certain to fail" sistem.


Nah, nothing about your idea is a good thing.

Maby but you didn't begin to show me why.