DDO is a Pay-to-Win Game Now

[teh_meh]

Let's just declare it and put the pointless debate behind us. If I have a million TP and endless points cards to offer people, what are the things I can't buy or trade for now (that people at endgame actually use)?

+4/+5 upgrade tomes
CitW raid items and heroic comms
Bauble
Shards/Seals for less than 10 of the old epic items
Madstone boots (do melee even use these anymore?)
Shards of Power from the Shroud (again, getting really hard to justify a slot for GS at current end game now)
Litany
Kormor's Belt

That's it...I'm spent. With a list this short I don't see the point in arguing about it. So why are we?

[katana_one]

/popcorn

[Isolani]

You would have a point if DDO was a PvP game, but really there is nothing to win in DDO since it is essentially a PvE game. How do you "beat" another player in DDO? There is no such thing as P2W in games that aren't PvP.

[MRMechMan]

You would have a point if DDO was a PvP game, but really there is nothing to win in DDO since it is essentially a PvE game. How do you "beat" another player in DDO? There is no such thing as P2W in games that aren't PvP.

When something good happens to me, I generally describe it as a 'win'.

Ace a test? Win.
Got a cute girls number? Win.

Same thing in-game.

Pull a +4 tome? Win.
Make an epic item? Win.

Most "winning" in this game is through playing the game; luck, time and skill are the main factors. More and more, there is another option...paying the game.

[Zonixx]

Let's just declare it and put the pointless debate behind us. If I have a million TP and endless points cards to offer people, what are the things I can't buy or trade for now (that people at endgame actually use)?

+4/+5 upgrade tomes
CitW raid items and heroic comms
Bauble
Shards/Seals for less than 10 of the old epic items
Madstone boots (do melee even use these anymore?)
Shards of Power from the Shroud (again, getting really hard to justify a slot for GS at current end game now)
Litany
Kormor's Belt

That's it...I'm spent. With a list this short I don't see the point in arguing about it. So why are we?

Your forgetting the most important thing - SKILL - You can spend a million dollars in the TP shop (and I am sure Turbine would love it if you did) - but honestly buying your way to victory will not give you the skill that you will actually need to succeed the most difficult content in the game. I am sorry, but even with 100,000 SP pots an unskilled player WILL NOT be able to run EE's without dying and raging, SP is not enough, tomes are NOT ENOUGH, it takes skill and knowledge of the game to succeed, not money.

[Juduss]

Ok, exactly how is DDO P2W? Lots of stuff in the store, I know. But what are you winning? And who is losing? Is this whole P2W issue that you can buy almost anything instead of earning it? If I buy supreem +5 tomes, precleansed greensteel, a bauble, an epic torque and the completionist feat, do I win? Did you lose because I did that? Someone please help me understand exactly what P2W is, and why it's soooooo horrible that someone can buy anything/everything they could otherwise earn freely.

Edit: lol I type too slow. There were no other replies when I started typing in this...

[Isolani]

When something good happens to me, I generally describe it as a 'win'.

Ace a test? Win.
Got a cute girls number? Win.

Same thing in-game.

Pull a +4 tome? Win.
Make an epic item? Win.

Most "winning" in this game is through playing the game; luck, time and skill are the main factors. More and more, there is another option...paying the game.

There may be the store option, but as long as the store option is not REQUIRED, then I don't consider it P2W. If +4 and +5 tomes were only available in the store, then yeah, I would call that pay to win. As it is, it's more like pay to save time.

[Masterspud]

Your forgetting the most important thing - SKILL - You can spend a million dollars in the TP shop (and I am sure Turbine would love it if you did) - but honestly buying your way to victory will not give you the skill that you will actually need to succeed the most difficult content in the game. I am sorry, but even with 100,000 SP pots an unskilled player WILL NOT be able to run EE's without dying and raging, SP is not enough, tomes are NOT ENOUGH, it takes skill and knowledge of the game to succeed, not money.

Yep!

If you are moron kid with daddy's CC then you can buy your way through epic with no issues... Minus one thing, NO ONE will play with you.

A win in DDO is determined on my part by actually accomplishing the end goal without having to spend money on stupid ****.

Yes I am a VIP, I did that for content.

I am not a pot buyer or a cake buyer. If I can not get through the quest and I die, I start over. My apologies if that ****es off the so called 'uber gamers' on a streak that is dependent on their ability to spend plat on items no level 14 non tr toon should ever have.

Take a flying leap.

A win is based on skill or money. If its based on money then the only thing you won was interest on daddys CC because no sane man would spend money on 'winning' entertainment, well at least no sane man that actually had to earn his money.

[Qhualor]

one particular p2w item is not enough in the hardest content, but stack several together and theres a beginning to something. people who p2w dont usually buy just one thing and say thats it. typically, they are a repeat customer.

again, people take p2w for its literal meaning instead of its intended meaning. if some people would look beyond the carrot on the hook and see a field of carrots just waiting to be plucked, than maybe they would see the bigger picture of how easily available p2w items can affect the game over the long haul. sometimes i get glossy eyes too when i see shinies in front of me, but than i shake myself out of it and realize its a mermaid.

[teh_meh]

Your forgetting the most important thing - SKILL - You can spend a million dollars in the TP shop (and I am sure Turbine would love it if you did) - but honestly buying your way to victory will not give you the skill that you will actually need to succeed the most difficult content in the game. I am sorry, but even with 100,000 SP pots an unskilled player WILL NOT be able to run EE's without dying and raging, SP is not enough, tomes are NOT ENOUGH, it takes skill and knowledge of the game to succeed, not money.

But why run an EE when you've already traded for all of the unbound EE loot out of that quest? u15 and u16 are modeled this way and all signs point to this being the wave of the future. See my point?

[LOOON375]

It all depends on what each person's definition of "win" is. And then the definition of what "pay to win" means to them.

I pay a subscription to play this game, and to me just having fun is all the "winning" I care about. By that definition, it is "pay to win".

Even with in game plat, you can "pay to win". Can't pull a rare epic item or scroll? Buy it off the auction house for a bajillion plat or exchange another "highly valued" item or items for it. That is still a form of "pay to win".

Most people that play this game, at some point or another, have spent real money, or in game money to "get ahead" in some sort of way.

[Jay203]

meh, not too worried
even with all the top-notch gears, you're still going to suck if you suck :p

[Memnir]

This is far from breaking news.
It's been called pay-to-win for a while now, just the benchmark is hit for different people at different times.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Are you suggesting everything should be BtC?

[locus]

It isn't about skill or not - it's that there will be far fewer players *wanting to group* to get what they want if the majority of it can be bought or traded for with bought items.

edit: V I should say, pug. It will be a shift toward a larger number of private groups of friends, imo.

[fmalfeas]

You know, some people don't play to get loot. To them, loot in all its forms is purely a means to an end. They want to see content, lore, explore areas, face new foes...even just fill out the Monster Manual.

To those players, running 80 ADQs for a torc so they have enough SP available to go explore other places isn't a win, it's a punishment for playing a bluebar instead of a melee.

To those players, grinding away at a quest on elite just to get a single piece of gear is not fun. At all. They'd rather be off exploring.

For these types of players, the ability to burn RL money to save time otherwise spent in grinding is a blessing. And probably the only reason they still play the game, because grindfests turn them off.

The 'win' they seek is that next piece of new art, or dialogue. The next waterfall placed naturally. That little side passage that nobody else bothers with due to no loot, but it has a rare wall painting to look at.

In short, some people play for ENTIRELY DIFFERENT REASONS THAN YOU. Get over it.

[MaximusParthas]

I don't think it's pay to win. I think it's pay to gamble.
It's one big casino now and all the doodads are just there to help you stack the odds so you can get more stuff to stack the odds.

[BOgre]

But why run an EE when you've already traded for all of the unbound EE loot out of that quest? u15 and u16 are modeled this way and all signs point to this being the wave of the future. See my point?

Nope, don't see your point at all. If buying everything and never running anything is someone's idea of fun, have at it... You're saying it's a bad thing for people to never run the content, and just spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on the game? I don't see the downside.

[Raptormesh]

Nope, don't see your point at all. If buying everything and never running anything is someone's idea of fun, have at it... You're saying it's a bad thing for people to never run the content, and just spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on the game? I don't see the downside.

Agree, let players dictate how they wish to enjoy the game with their own money.

[Zonixx]

But why run an EE when you've already traded for all of the unbound EE loot out of that quest? u15 and u16 are modeled this way and all signs point to this being the wave of the future. See my point?

What is the point of playing in the first place? To get every item you can? The point of playing any game should be to have fun, whether you are after the items or not, whether you have them or not. I do not see the fact that just because you have every item in a quest pack or content area, that you can no longer have fun running it. I have all the loot I need from abbot, but still run it all the time because it is a fun raid (am I alone on this one?).

[Dunklerlindwurm]

This is far from breaking news.
It's been called pay-to-win for a while now, just the benchmark is hit for different people at different times.

This

For me it was already when you were able to buy SP Pots in the store...and that was long ago.
Unlimited SP means you can do almost any Quest in the game solo without real skill.

oh and btw. OP you can delete the +4 upgrade Tome thingy from your list because

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=4786600#post4786600

pretty funny if you think about how people were raging about +3 tomes already...well this game gets worse every day.

[Dandonk]

This is far from breaking news.
It's been called pay-to-win for a while now, just the benchmark is hit for different people at different times.

Yes.

[arjiwan]

I have all the loot I need from abbot, but still run it all the time because it is a fun raid (am I alone on this one?).

No. Really, it is a fun raid for me.

[Ryiah]

The point of playing any game should be to have fun, whether you are after the items or not, whether you have them or not.

Some people actually find it fun to be "ahead" of everyone else regardless of what they have to do to achieve it. Fine by me if it pays for new content but I hate it when a company starts catering to them and messing up the UI with little nagging messages everywhere.

[Deathdefy]

Ignore me.

[Cetus]

Well, for me this change affects my fun because of how I perceive that item now.

Before, when a +4 tome dropped under my name, I felt pretty good. I now have a rare item that I either need, or could trade for something that will benefit me. Either way, its a significant gain.

Its availability in the store takes away that feeling. Now, when I encounter a +4 tome - I'll just say 'meh'

From the competitive angle, its also a lot of fun for a person to get a rare item that few others have. Makes you feel special. Once a rare item becomes available with a credit card swipe. I don't feel very special anymore knowing that the spenders already got it.

Thats honestly the way I feel about store items in general.

[Ugumagre]

I would be happy if I could be worried about this.

I really don´t care if some people think they have to spend money to get top gear. It is a SEP (Somebody Else´s Problem).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somebody_Else%27s_Problem

[anttoni11]

It isn't about skill or not - it's that there will be far fewer players *wanting to group* to get what they want if the majority of it can be bought or traded for with bought items.

edit: V I should say, pug. It will be a shift toward a larger number of private groups of friends, imo.


So why should force people who dont have interest to group, play that way.
If people wount make groups enough without forced system, i think people have voted sertain way how they like to play the game.

[Aurora1979]

Buying things makes Turbine lots of money.

Pay2win? I call it paytomeanthatihavetopayandcanhaveafreegame

Also, if someone else is paying that doesn't effect you. Play your game and stop trying to enforce rules on the way other people play.

P.S I rarely use the shop these days but people should be able to if they want. not everyone can play 14 hours a day.

[Aurora1979]

Well, for me this change affects my fun because of how I perceive that item now.

Before, when a +4 tome dropped under my name, I felt pretty good. I now have a rare item that I either need, or could trade for something that will benefit me. Either way, its a significant gain.

Its availability in the store takes away that feeling. Now, when I encounter a +4 tome - I'll just say 'meh'

From the competitive angle, its also a lot of fun for a person to get a rare item that few others have. Makes you feel special. Once a rare item becomes available with a credit card swipe. I don't feel very special anymore knowing that the spenders already got it.

Thats honestly the way I feel about store items in general.

Well thats your own failing and perception.

Why not think of that +4 in the same way I would if someone gave me a free bang and olfsen stero. Sure, I could throw a little girl style sulking fit because i can go buy it in a shop.... or I could be HAPPY with getting one for free!

[Jacobius]

Well, for me this change affects my fun because of how I perceive that item now.

Before, when a +4 tome dropped under my name, I felt pretty good. I now have a rare item that I either need, or could trade for something that will benefit me. Either way, its a significant gain.

Its availability in the store takes away that feeling. Now, when I encounter a +4 tome - I'll just say 'meh'

From the competitive angle, its also a lot of fun for a person to get a rare item that few others have. Makes you feel special. Once a rare item becomes available with a credit card swipe. I don't feel very special anymore knowing that the spenders already got it.

Thats honestly the way I feel about store items in general.


So you need a rare item in a game to feel special?? Think that says more about your maturity level then anything. +3 tomes have been in the store for awhile and I still see plenty of people get excited (notice excited or happy, doubt it makes the feel o so special) to pull one and see them traded quite often so I think people are really over exaggerating how many people buy these from the store.

[katz]

Your forgetting the most important thing - SKILL - You can spend a million dollars in the TP shop (and I am sure Turbine would love it if you did) - but honestly buying your way to victory will not give you the skill that you will actually need to succeed the most difficult content in the game. I am sorry, but even with 100,000 SP pots an unskilled player WILL NOT be able to run EE's without dying and raging, SP is not enough, tomes are NOT ENOUGH, it takes skill and knowledge of the game to succeed, not money.


There may be the store option, but as long as the store option is not REQUIRED, then I don't consider it P2W. If +4 and +5 tomes were only available in the store, then yeah, I would call that pay to win. As it is, it's more like pay to save time.


You know, some people don't play to get loot. To them, loot in all its forms is purely a means to an end. They want to see content, lore, explore areas, face new foes...even just fill out the Monster Manual.

To those players, running 80 ADQs for a torc so they have enough SP available to go explore other places isn't a win, it's a punishment for playing a bluebar instead of a melee.

To those players, grinding away at a quest on elite just to get a single piece of gear is not fun. At all. They'd rather be off exploring.

For these types of players, the ability to burn RL money to save time otherwise spent in grinding is a blessing. And probably the only reason they still play the game, because grindfests turn them off.

The 'win' they seek is that next piece of new art, or dialogue. The next waterfall placed naturally. That little side passage that nobody else bothers with due to no loot, but it has a rare wall painting to look at.

In short, some people play for ENTIRELY DIFFERENT REASONS THAN YOU. Get over it.

voices of reason. i wish i had enough +1s to go around to all of you. i'll hit you when i can




only thing i'm upset about is the fact that they announced this AFTER the point bonus went away! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Jacobius]

When something good happens to me, I generally describe it as a 'win'.

Ace a test? Win.
Got a cute girls number? Win.

Same thing in-game.

Pull a +4 tome? Win.
Make an epic item? Win.

Most "winning" FOR ME in this game is through playing the game; luck, time and skill are the main factors. More and more, there is another option...paying the game.

Fix that for you. Nothing wrong with that being what you like but last I checked you still can do those things in game. But just cause you want to play that way doesn't mean everyone has to enjoy the game the same way you do

[katz]

know what a +4 tome means to me?



means i can start with a 15 dex on katz's next life.




yippie skippy

[coldblade000]

Oh goodness.

As some other people have said, I really don't feel like the game is going to die from the DDO store. I keep reading the same arguments over this topic and it really always just boils down to

"People who feel slighted from their hard work" and "People who don't mind giving Turbine money."

I'd like to ask then, how many different other ways can you come up with for revenue?

Seriously, I would like to know. Because if they didn't add new content to the store, everyone would eventually buy up all of the +2 or +3 tomes and eventually have all the content done anyway right? They could release new content but what would you like for a reward of not a juicy higher level tome.

As we grow in levels, don't we deserve to get more powerful? All I see is the DDO store raising in power to match us. I've seen the complaint "Mana potions equal win" But that Blue Bar isn't God Mode duration, or an invincibility buff. You can still die, and I see that happen pretty often.

Sure, you could keep guzzling and grinding, eating spirit cakes and pressing the "continue" button. But that makes it more of an arcade experience, and then you have to pay to repair all of your gear and get a huge chunk out of experience gained.

The way I see it, you can spend tons of time grinding, or tons of time using items, and still in the end all you lose is time spent. If loot is your only goal in this game, I would sincerely recommend trying the Real World for valuables. This games loot is all electronic, it's only going to help you kills monsters. If you don't feel like killing monsters anymore, that was your bad. I know of plenty of people willing to still go out and play the content, because there is so many different ways to go through it.

I see many players enjoying the game, and experiencing a challenge. As someone else said earlier, if all of the challenge is gone from the game, then it's not fun, and I can agree no challenge would be a dull. Well if you share this view, don't buy the goodies in the store. I'm sure you probably hear that one a lot as well, but it's true. If your fun is ruined by a lack of challenge, don't buy upgrades, earn them.

If you are so bothered that other players are stronger than you, and bought that power, don't adventure with them and you won't gain their unfair advantage. If you then want to say "Well then content gets balanced for the more powerful and makes it unfairly harder" then wow, look at that, a huge challenge to overcome!

If you say them getting stronger and bored after paying a bunch of money to fund the game, kills the game, offer me some options on how else to collect revenue.

The Turbine staff and developers have to get paid. Maintenance alone costs money, forget about developing new content. If new content becomes their only cash cow, I promise you will see an intense rush to push the content, and I very much think that bugs would become more rampant.

These items in the store, and consumables, are a great way to get cash and provide for the game. If you think it's costing us players from our servers, think about this, aren't you only really losing the "Pay to Win" crowd? They are the ones who you are saying will get bored with the game, and eventually leave. So what do you lose?

Unless you are saying those of you against the DDO store, and who don't spend money save on new content or VIP, are going to leave because OTHERS are making the game too easy for YOU.

If that's the case, not partying with "P2W" people should solve your problem, and if the game really is being abandoned like you say, then it's only a matter of time before all the "P2W" people get bored and leave, as you all so mightily predict.

Or are you implying that everyone who loves and enjoys supporting the game and getting lost in the detail of this MMO world are also going to leave in retaliation?

I see lot's of talk "years ago when the game was like this, I predicted X would happen" and people crying about the "slippery slope"

It has been YEARS. Years of the game still evolving, years of you still playing, years of new content coming out for us to enjoy. That means potentially hundred of hours of gameplay, and let us not forget, this game is far from the only thing in our lives. Turbine isn't meant to balance the game for people that have 2 or 3 accounts and multibox, they also aren't meant to provide a game that we can stay immersed in for 24 hours of the day 7 days a week (though that is the goal, it's also an unhealthy scenario). If you grind for 48 hours, then yes, you burn through the game and content quicker, but again, personal choice.

You need only look at the frequency of people arguing over this to see that clearly enough people support and love the game that they want to continue giving Turbine money and play. That right there, is the only example and argument you need to see that the DDO community as a whole isn't being "alienated" away by our DDO store.

I am not saying the game is 100% healthy and perfect though. It's a work in progress, as are we all.

[Uma-Quixote]

How about; You play your game the way you want...let everyone else play theirs.

get over it, move on - nothing to see here.

[Juduss]

Maybe the P2W doesn't bother me 'cause back in the day I also bought a Game Shark...

[Xilth]

How about; You play your game the way you want...let everyone else play theirs.

get over it, move on - nothing to see here.

I think that affects all people, but i could be wrong...

Lets look at all that items that bound to character on equip, all of them have rather low drop rate and can be tradeable. I don't think that is coincident, and was made in porpous to allow selling items for real money. If that items was BtA im shure that drops rates would be a lot higher. I can be wrong but right now my fealings are that all new items with BtCoE are just a cash grab for turbine, u can farm item to death or just buy for cash game curency (Raid Timer Baypass) and get that item in few posts in trade chanell...

Right now i just ransacked 6 characters in 3BC to get "spear" from there, and still didn't see it... min lv 4 item that has what drop rates, lower then 2%? If i ransack it with only 1 character it would take almoust 2 months and i wouldn't still see that item. It would be faster to lv up to lv 18 and get Rahl Might from Mindsuder then that spear :( Yes, i could have extreamly bad luck on puls but... im shure if that item was BtC or even BtA it wouldn't be so bad. We had ealier lots of items with low drop rates like Blood Stone, RoSS, etc... but right now i get fealing that we get more and more items with extreamly low drop rates, but tradeable for $.

And there is item that is sold in store and not opteinable in game... +2 fate tome doesnt drop in game, yes we had lots of +1 fate tomes to drop but never +2. On the other had +2 fate tome could be in game, but with what drop rates? chances that i will get that item for at least 1 character is near imposible... and that is with situation when i had payied for ED when i pre order motu, when i bought motu nobody said that my buy will be crippled and to upgrade it i will need to spennd more cash. Someone will say that i can grind all fate poits what i need, but i wont, i hate ED grid and i maybe open one or two twist and end it,...

I don't care for p2w or anything like that, if someone like and have lots of money thats ok. But i realy thing that p2w dosn't end there, to give more reasons for buying curency (raid timers) Turbine is lowering drop rates for almoust everything... right now end game is lv 20+, so why min lv 4 item that will be used for few lv has so low drop rates? Ealier we had dopant in shroud with the same situation, when i run motu content i dosn't get so many named items like in other pre motu packs... and not all items are optainable on 3rd end reword list, its just pure mindless grind or cash...

I can be wrong and all that stuff what i wrote is just becous im realy annyed for that 6 ransacks and can't think abaut all that in callm way... but what would be other reason for that spear to have drop rates so low if not for cash grab? And yes i can life witout that item... but why it is in game then, if it can be opteinable only with extreamly luck? just to encourage for spending more money?

[DarkForte]

You guys missed the bus by a few months. The real turnover for pay-to-win was epic destinies. You just don't notice it because it came bundled with the expansion when a lot of people bought it.

[llyrnionfor]

You know, some people don't play to get loot. To them, loot in all its forms is purely a means to an end. They want to see content, lore, explore areas, face new foes...even just fill out the Monster Manual.

To those players, running 80 ADQs for a torc so they have enough SP available to go explore other places isn't a win, it's a punishment for playing a bluebar instead of a melee.

To those players, grinding away at a quest on elite just to get a single piece of gear is not fun. At all. They'd rather be off exploring.

For these types of players, the ability to burn RL money to save time otherwise spent in grinding is a blessing. And probably the only reason they still play the game, because grindfests turn them off.

The 'win' they seek is that next piece of new art, or dialogue. The next waterfall placed naturally. That little side passage that nobody else bothers with due to no loot, but it has a rare wall painting to look at.

In short, some people play for ENTIRELY DIFFERENT REASONS THAN YOU. Get over it.

Well, this states it just perfectly (+1, BTW), I'll just add a few notes.

1. Time and money are both resources. You spend that which is more expendable for you.

2. Is gear important? Yes, it is. I went through King's Forest with my gimp tempest at level 20, and it was doable, but challenging. Then, my guildies helped me craft a GS LitII khopesh, and it became easier. Then, I got some commendations, and got some better gear. And then, I leveled him to 21, and had a drow scimitar a guildie gave me and it became easier again. The skill involved was pretty much the same - not biting more than I could chew, knowing when to retreat (e.g., in the Soami Gardens, this tempest has left Zhuggothz behind quite a few times, but I'll get there), taking extra care in the "don't let the suicidal NPCs die" department. Better gear gives more room for error, and that's a good thing (e.g., I can now walk around with this tempest on the Devil Battlefield, and finally get to know the place, without getting owned if a bunch or orthons/devils teleport to me, or if I find a red named rare). So, I have no problems with gear being available by spending either time or money.

3. I refuse to grind. The only time I went on a mini-grindfest was when I decided I had to get a Carnifex (hence, the "mini"). It was definitely not fun to me.

4. I don't consider pulling a piece of gear out of a chest an achievement. Running a quest/raid dozens of time to get gear is not an achievement, is gambling; there's nothing wrong with that, just don't call it an achievement. My recent achievements are soloing the "Blood for Demons" encounter in King's Forest with my semi-gimp lvl 20 tempest and keeping the NPC from dying; or soloing "Tharashk Arena" on elite with my even-gimpier lvl 10 bard; or finding a way to body pull the mobs in the final boss fight in "Diplomatic Impunity". Other achievements are way beyond my league, and would be even if I were to acquire today all top notch gear from the store - e.g., soloing raids, or high level quests on elite. Maybe I'll do it one day, but that will require time and persistence, more than gear.

So, let Turbine sell whatever they want at the store. Will I buy it? Probably not. While I've bought a few +2 supreme tomes when they were on sale, back in the day, I haven't bought anything in the last few months, apart from MotU on sale.

But I certainly won't assume I have the right to keep others from doing it.

[Kareena]

It does lessen that "I'm special" feeling imo. Whether categorized as excitement or happiness or spechialness- having a rare-ish item that becomes common isn't nearly as fun to receive.

That said; ddo is ptw OR ttw(time to win)- choose your method depending on your time/financial situation. Either way won't get you squat if you don't have at least some skill end game though. Also attitude/manners has significant impact in game too- and you can't sell those in store.

It does seem to me a little soon for +4's to be out in store already- 3's didn't come out THAT long ago did they? My memory may be borked tho. Regardless- they are coming out. deal with it. Move on and play or /ragequit. It's happening regardless.

I may buy one or two; I'm really not sure- it will depend on if I have the money. But I'm not able to spend a ton of money on ddo; $20 about once a month is my limit- but it stretches alot more than going to see a movie or spent on shoes or some other hobbyl. $$-time spent is quite worth it for me.

[Xilth]

1. Time and money are both resources. You spend that which is more expendable for you.


lol I i play DDO to have fun not to count my "resources", mindless grind or throwing cash for everything... When i started playing, DDO wasn't anything like this, i payed for content and had fun with it, with some medicore (not annoying) grind. Now we are geting crippled content (ED with fate tomes, quests with lowered drop rates) just to make money for Turbine... only thing that counts now is to grab as much real money as fast as posible, or make life for people that dosn't spend "enough" money difficult as much as possible...

[llyrnionfor]

lol I i play DDO to have fun not to count my "resources", mindless grind or throwing cash for everything...

We both agree here. What I was saying is one's not on some kind of moral high ground just because one happens to have more time than money.

[Vellrad]

p2w arrived with epic destinies.

anything else is just a small % compared to them

[Viisari]

Its availability in the store takes away that feeling. Now, when I encounter a +4 tome - I'll just say 'meh'


This. Knowing that you could have bought it from the store takes away much of the excitement. I guess next we'll be able to buy complete raid items too...

[Aurora1979]

This. Knowing that you could have bought it from the store takes away much of the excitement. I guess next we'll be able to buy complete raid items too...

I'd say the same as I did earlier in the thread. If you are given something free in really life, maybe a watch or something as a bonus at work, or a stereo.

Would you sulk because other people can also buy that item in a shop?

[Drelak]

Well, for me this change affects my fun because of how I perceive that item now.

Before, when a +4 tome dropped under my name, I felt pretty good. I now have a rare item that I either need, or could trade for something that will benefit me. Either way, its a significant gain.

Its availability in the store takes away that feeling. Now, when I encounter a +4 tome - I'll just say 'meh'

From the competitive angle, its also a lot of fun for a person to get a rare item that few others have. Makes you feel special. Once a rare item becomes available with a credit card swipe. I don't feel very special anymore knowing that the spenders already got it.

Thats honestly the way I feel about store items in general.

OK. This sounds sincere, reflective and therapeutic. You show promise in self-contemplating, and that is a difficult but very good thing to do. I see this has also sparked several negative responses, that can feel pretty personal.

I was rather excited about tomes at first, thinking that I might get lucky and pull a nice +2 sometime. I'd never use so many TP:s that they cost. Then came the birthday cake, and everyone got +2 tome for free. After that when I pulled my first +1 tome (int for my cleric) I had no excitement what so ever.

I don't have either the time or the cash to get any gear others call essential. I must confess that I am a bit envious for those who can use money freely for a hobby. Like having the option to use spirit cake to raise me and my hireling after being killed by lag in a fight, at the end part of a quest. But then I am also a bit envious about the computers others can allow themselves to buy.

[Missing_Minds]

That's it...I'm spent. With a list this short I don't see the point in arguing about it. So why are we?

Because some people don't do well with change and like to complain.
Because people can not just all get along.
Because some people always have to have the last word in no matter what.
Because some people can't stand the idea that games can mimic real life where hard work and effort can get you somewhere but so can a money.

[Azithoth]

This. Knowing that you could have bought it from the store takes away much of the excitement. I guess next we'll be able to buy complete raid items too...

I'm thinking them leveling stones will resurface again. they didn't just make them to go with MOTU purchases..

[SilkofDrasnia]

Well, for me this change affects my fun because of how I perceive that item now.

Before, when a +4 tome dropped under my name, I felt pretty good. I now have a rare item that I either need, or could trade for something that will benefit me. Either way, its a significant gain.

Its availability in the store takes away that feeling. Now, when I encounter a +4 tome - I'll just say 'meh'

From the competitive angle, its also a lot of fun for a person to get a rare item that few others have. Makes you feel special. Once a rare item becomes available with a credit card swipe. I don't feel very special anymore knowing that the spenders already got it.

Thats honestly the way I feel about store items in general.

Does it really change that though? Is it not accurate to say that the "carrot" has been changed to be a +5 instead of the +4?

So really peeps will fight and moan over the +5 now, when it drops in a chest, instead of the +4 !

[Ungood]

If we Pay and we will all have a Game to Play and everyone Wins. :D

If we don't Pay and We won't have a game to Play, and everyone looses :(

[sdrocky]

Hmm. May get flamed here a bit but its my opinion.. Sorry.

anyway here we go.


Truthfully CGF. If someone is actually foolish enough to spend their or their dads hard earned real life money, in the manner you suggest, to keep a game that i love and play alive for as long as is possible. Then good.

If i don't do it, and don't pug with those who do. Play the way i like and spend my money wisely isn't that a good thing?

You also forget, the ability to play, farm and eventually obtain access to all the content for those who truly can not afford a subscription model is available to all.

Isn't this also a wonderful thing?

[Hendrik]

This. Knowing that you could have bought it from the store takes away much of the excitement. I guess next we'll be able to buy complete raid items too...

Unless you buy your gear from the store, the excitement of looting is still there.

I get 'excited' when I get the +4 or an upgrade in a chest. Why? I didn't waste my money on buying it in the store - same with every last store item that drops.

Are you less excited because you bought MOTU in the Store? U16?

Going to be less excited for eGH because it will be in the store whenever it is released?



Oh, and OP, you have missed the bus, ViPs are the ultimate abusers of P2W, didn't you get the hate filled memo? They have been paying to win since the game released. Every month, they pay to win.

[Truga]

But why run an EE when you've already traded for all of the unbound EE loot out of that quest? u15 and u16 are modeled this way and all signs point to this being the wave of the future. See my point?

Thank the bloody developers for finally reading page bloody one of a book on bloody game economy design. Bound items are bad for gameplay (NPC loot every day), they're bad for the economy (NPC loot every day), they're bad for... everything.

[mobrien316]

Pay to win means that you can buy things in the store for cash that you can't get in-game, and those things you can buy enable you to play or excel at endgame content.

DDO is not pay to win. It is "pay for time saving convenience", but not pay to win.


If you could only level your character to 10 without buying something for cash in the store (cash, not accumulated TP earned through favor), then you could call it pay to win.

If casters could only learn spells up to level 3 without buying something in the store to learn higher level ones, that would be pay to win.

If you could only find +1 weapons in the game, but could buy better weapons and DR-breakers only the store (and only for cash, not for favor-earned TP's), that would be pay to win.

As it stands, Turbine is intelligently selling items that allow a person to trade time for money. Some people have lots of time and little money; they can do everything in the game that they want to do, given enough time. Other people have more money than time; they can do everything in the game more quickly than someone who won't spend a dime. But both people can get to the same place eventually.

[Gkar]

If I have a million TP

If you purchased 1 mill TP, then I don't give a **** if you buy everything in sight. Instead I thank you for your $6,000-10,000 (depending on sales) contributiont to the game. A dozen like you and you'll be supporting a programmer or two :D

[Wizzly_Bear]

"pay to save time" != "pay to win"

[LordRavnos]

You know, some people don't play to get loot. To them, loot in all its forms is purely a means to an end. They want to see content, lore, explore areas, face new foes...even just fill out the Monster Manual.

To those players, running 80 ADQs for a torc so they have enough SP available to go explore other places isn't a win, it's a punishment for playing a bluebar instead of a melee.

To those players, grinding away at a quest on elite just to get a single piece of gear is not fun. At all. They'd rather be off exploring.

For these types of players, the ability to burn RL money to save time otherwise spent in grinding is a blessing. And probably the only reason they still play the game, because grindfests turn them off.

The 'win' they seek is that next piece of new art, or dialogue. The next waterfall placed naturally. That little side passage that nobody else bothers with due to no loot, but it has a rare wall painting to look at.

In short, some people play for ENTIRELY DIFFERENT REASONS THAN YOU. Get over it.

You, sir or ma'am, have restored a portion of my faith in humanity. I do enjoy those aspects of games and sometimes feel alone, but I also enjoy challenges, new loot at times, new builds etc. So I am a mixed bag, but I still feel alone. Thanks for making me feel not so alone. Have a +1

[shadereaper33]

until such time as you are required to purchase items out of the DDO store to have a competitive chance of completing end game content, DDO will not be pay to win. From my perspective, the DDO store offers another option to acquire some in-game items if you don't want to spend the time actually playing the game to acquire those items. As far as I am concerned, it offers a way for turbine to make more money without having an actual negative impact on the game.

[Anthios888]

I sure feel bad for the people who drop hundreds of dollars into characters and still suck. All of these Pay to Win threads are false advertising!

[gradeyshane]

You would have a point if DDO was a PvP game, but really there is nothing to win in DDO since it is essentially a PvE game. How do you "beat" another player in DDO? There is no such thing as P2W in games that aren't PvP.


This is it in a handbasket.

[mondo]

Now if only I could afford to win. :)

[gradeyshane]

This

For me it was already when you were able to buy SP Pots in the store...and that was long ago.
Unlimited SP means you can do almost any Quest in the game solo without real skill.

oh and btw. OP you can delete the +4 upgrade Tome thingy from your list because

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=4786600#post4786600

pretty funny if you think about how people were raging about +3 tomes already...well this game gets worse every day.

Yeah I know it must be hard to enjoy your time on DDO knowing some rat excrement can go buy a plus 4 upgrade tome and a stack of pots for 40 bucks. It has to be hard, but there seems to be a whole support group for you guys who are having trouble with it. Maybe you all should get together and create a forum where you can hold each other and explain to each other how tough life is that people have options on a PVE game that they like to employ to enhance their gaming experience.

I hope you guys are ok, I'd send flowers but im afraid that you would be upset that i went out and bought flowers instead of fighting chuck norris and bill gates at the end fight of life to get them in the EE reward box..and I really woudl hate to add to the hardships of your lives.

Sincerely....

[Ape_Man]

But why run an EE when you've already traded for all of the unbound EE loot out of that quest? u15 and u16 are modeled this way and all signs point to this being the wave of the future. See my point?

1. EE is the funnest stuff to do in this game. You're ubber, you have all your EDs maxxed, your gear is pimped out, running anything less than EE is lame.

2. People will pay for this loot. Even if you don't need it somebody else will and they will pay nicely for it.

[Sarnind]

Your forgetting the most important thing - SKILL - You can spend a million dollars in the TP shop (and I am sure Turbine would love it if you did) - but honestly buying your way to victory will not give you the skill that you will actually need to succeed the most difficult content in the game. I am sorry, but even with 100,000 SP pots an unskilled player WILL NOT be able to run EE's without dying and raging, SP is not enough, tomes are NOT ENOUGH, it takes skill and knowledge of the game to succeed, not money.

U joking? U not need a skill for running in EN or EH end game content, this game is diyng

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'll take pay-to-win over not being able to play a bankrupped game any day.



.... and I see little difference between pay-to-win and grind-to-win btw.
If you can get a full set of +4 tomes by doing the same quest 1001 times in a row, I don't see that as much different from buying them in the DDO store.

Just one way is a lot more fun IMO. The other is kinda stupid.

In my opinion great loot should come randomly from doing random quests and random optionals.

Not stupidly running through the same quest over and over again as fast as possible.

and not buyin it from a store.




But... like I said, if Turbine is making money, then I get to keep playing my favorite game.
If they are not making money, the game goes away.

So, although I hate the greed I see Turbine promoting, I accept that that same greed keeps the game going..... and thus my fun going as well.

[cpito]

Its availability in the store takes away that feeling. Now, when I encounter a +4 tome - I'll just say 'meh'

This:

Now if only I could afford to win. :)

They may be available in the DDO store but I definitely can't afford them (and I prefer to spend my free TP on more frivilous stuff :p ) so when one drops in my name I'm still all sorts of "woo-hoo!"


I sure feel bad for the people who drop hundreds of dollars into characters and still suck. All of these Pay to Win threads are false advertising!

+1 :D

[Gkar]

U joking? U not need a skill for running in EN or EH end game content, this game is diyng

I remember hearing that in the forums 2 years before you started playing.

[Gkar]

p2w arrived with epic destinies.

anything else is just a small % compared to them

Actually this is the most accurate post in the thread. It is the only thing in game that actually IS pay to win because there is no way to get epic destinies without paying for it and they are the most powerful thing in game.

[DarkForte]

But why run an EE when you've already traded for all of the unbound EE loot out of that quest? u15 and u16 are modeled this way and all signs point to this being the wave of the future. See my point?
Because EE is 10x as fun as steamrolling EN? If you don't have fun running EN/EH or EE, it might be high time for you to quit the game, as it doesn't make you happy anymore.


Actually this is the most accurate post in the thread. It is the only thing in game that actually IS pay to win because there is no way to get epic destinies without paying for it and they are the most powerful thing in game.

I called it first :P

[Wizzly_Bear]

I remember hearing that in the forums 2 years before you started playing.

I remember people proclaiming the death of the game being nigh back in '07. I'm sure there were even some saying so in '06.

[Gkar]

Its availability in the store takes away that feeling. Now, when I encounter a +4 tome - I'll just say 'meh'

Hey Cetus, feel free to mail that +4 you find next to any of my characters. The gimps could use some help :)

But yeah, that was my fear. As has been pointed out elsewhere, while +4s are no longer technically raid loot... that's something I would have been crazy excited about. Now it would come to, "hey look, I saved $27". Which isn't bad either... but it still feels...wrong to me somehow.

Guess everyone has a different fuzzy line of comfort in the sand

[Gkar]

I remember people proclaiming the death of the game being nigh back in '07. I'm sure there were even some saying so in '06.

Exactly, actually I'm pretty sure there were some people saying that in the 2005-6 beta.

[Ape_Man]

U joking? U not need a skill for running in EN or EH end game content, this game is diyng

Run EE.

[Captain_Wizbang]

This is far from breaking news.


yup.

Let's face it people, this game will shut down quickly if monies aren't generated.
When + 3's hit the store, I was against it. now.....
If people aren't spending money in the store on these or any other decent items, we won't have a game to play, so it makes no difference (to me) what's on sale, or what they put in the store.

I want to keep playing DDO, and I support the choices of items being sold.

[Ivan_Milic]

Why wouldn't melee use Madstone boots,you cant buy esos.

[JOTMON]

Let's just declare it and put the pointless debate behind us. If I have a million TP and endless points cards to offer people, what are the things I can't buy or trade for now (that people at endgame actually use)?

+4/+5 upgrade tomes
CitW raid items and heroic comms
Bauble
Shards/Seals for less than 10 of the old epic items
Madstone boots (do melee even use these anymore?)
Shards of Power from the Shroud (again, getting really hard to justify a slot for GS at current end game now)
Litany
Kormor's Belt

That's it...I'm spent. With a list this short I don't see the point in arguing about it. So why are we?

Give me your million TP and your account information and I will take care of all these items for you. :)
oh wait you will probably want your account back... nvm...

[Cyr]

I remember people proclaiming the death of the game being nigh back in '07.

You mean the year when they had the server merges...

Yeah DDO was doing awesome back then.

[cpito]

Ya know, I'm pretty sure that one of the biggest money makers for the DDO store are armor skins since Turbine seems to go out of its way to make butt-ugly armor. After EDs, I believe the DDO store is far more pay to look good and save time than it is a pay to win scenario.

[Missing_Minds]

You mean the year when they had the server merges...
Yeah DDO was doing awesome back then.
Yeap, and Atari is still alive... sort of.

[adamkatt]

Your forgetting the most important thing - SKILL - You can spend a million dollars in the TP shop (and I am sure Turbine would love it if you did) - but honestly buying your way to victory will not give you the skill that you will actually need to succeed the most difficult content in the game. I am sorry, but even with 100,000 SP pots an unskilled player WILL NOT be able to run EE's without dying and raging, SP is not enough, tomes are NOT ENOUGH, it takes skill and knowledge of the game to succeed, not money.

Dont listen to this guy he is CrazY!!!! :P +1

I also pay to win, i resubbed for a year, i cant wait until i win something!

[Sarnind]

Run EE.

make me laugh, I have done most of EE quest in solo, and i can confirm no sense run in EE when any cra ppy casual players 28 build point can have my same equip doing in EN or EH.

[DeafeningWhisper]

make me laugh, I have done most of EE quest in solo, and i can confirm no sense run in EE when any cra ppy casual players 28 build point can have my same equip doing in EN or EH.

My God, others can have your uber elitist gear!!!??? *gasp* quick /wrists!!!!

[Dysmetria]

As noted in numerous previous posts, there is nothing to "win" in a PvE game.

Even if there was some kind of "win," this game would have been "pay to win" long before now, via SP pots.

[Ape_Man]

make me laugh, I have done most of EE quest in solo, and i can confirm no sense run in EE when any cra ppy casual players 28 build point can have my same equip doing in EN or EH.

Who cares if casual players have the same or similar gear as you do? They still suck and gear won't change that.

This game is about having fun, not keeping score. It's a PVE game for fug's sake.

Yes, EN and EH is easy and boring to end-game players. Not everyone is an end-game player, there's no harm in them being able to have fun in content that they paid for. I personally wish hard was more difficult so it'd prepare people for elite but it just isn't and we can only whine about it on the forums so much before it's gotta sink in that this isn't gonna change.

So nut up or shut up, if EH is too easy don't run it. We have a difficulty setting all the way to the right for a reason.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I m a elitist, read my signature, my comment was sarcastic, in this game u not need skill, all epic content EE is easy(eccept certain raids, EE lob, EE citw) and no sense running raids in EE, everyone can get the best equipment in EN or EH. This game is only for casual players now

What does that have to do with P2W thou?

Also the game oppened up epics for everyone after MoTU if that fact means a few elitists like you leave, then I'm sorry to say I can live with that and so can the game...

[Ape_Man]

I m a elitist, read my signature, my comment was sarcastic, in this game u not need skill, all epic content EE is easy(eccept certain raids, EE lob, EE citw) and no sense running raids in EE, everyone can get the best equipment in EN or EH. This game is only for casual players now

MUCH of the EE content is far easier than people think it is. High road quests do take it up a notch compared to much of the other stuff which is a step in the right direction.

EE Velah and DQ are worth doing. Noticeably better drop rates.

Chrono . . . isn't worth running at all. The loot is all **** out-dated now but this is FUN on EE.

LOB/MA - waste of time on EE. Agreed here.

CiTW: 2 guaranteed commendations a run. Still not sure if it's worth it but considering we need zillions of these now for the ungrades it just might be.

[teh_meh]

I m a elitist, read my signature, my comment was sarcastic, in this game u not need skill, all epic content EE is easy(eccept certain raids, EE lob, EE citw) and no sense running raids in EE, everyone can get the best equipment in EN or EH. This game is only for casual players now

I have to agree with this. But I digress...it's not about the way I like to play...or the way YOU like to play...or how you define "win". All of these things are philosophical distractions.

If DDO is not a pay-to-win game as it is now, fine. Then there is NO such thing as a pay-to-win game. Name me a game more pay-ish-to-win-ish than DDO? Warner Brothers has out-prostituted even the wackos over at WoW. Now that's saying something.

I'm not mad. I just logged out after 6 hours of playing. Will continue playing. Just saying the "slippery slope" analogy is past having any relevance. We are here. We are a pay-to-win game.

[Sarnind]

I have to agree with this. But I digress...it's not about the way I like to play...or the way YOU like to play...or how you define "win". All of these things are philosophical distractions.

If DDO is not a pay-to-win game as it is now, fine. Then there is NO such thing as a pay-to-win game. Name me a game more pay-ish-to-win-ish than DDO? Warner Brothers has out-prostituted even the wackos over at WoW. Now that's saying something.

I'm not mad. I just logged out after 6 hours of playing. Will continue playing. Just saying the "slippery slope" analogy is past having any relevance. We are here. We are a pay-to-win game.

u win, You hit the point, WoW policy killed the game, now it s just a boring farming without skill(like wow), Y probably fun for most of casual players, but not for me.

[Vint]

I'm not mad. I just logged out after 6 hours of playing. Will continue playing. Just saying the "slippery slope" analogy is past having any relevance. We are here. We are a pay-to-win game.

Well I be a loser as I have not paid in a long time.

IMO, Turbine can sell whatever to make up for what I am not paying.

One question to some though. Not a flame or troll but, if you take the first 5 or 11 that hit your LFM, what does it matter if the pugger shows up with starter rags or geared to the nines? Integrity is good and all but in this anonymous game who cares?

[Hendrik]

I m a elitist, read my signature, my comment was sarcastic, in this game u not need skill, all epic content EE is easy(eccept certain raids, EE lob, EE citw) and no sense running raids in EE, everyone can get the best equipment in EN or EH. This game is only for casual players now

If EE is so easy, why you spending all that time in Devils Assault??

Seeing where you spend your time on your "elitist" character, I call BS on soloing EE.

You can now go back to casually farming DA.

[Wizzly_Bear]

You mean the year when they had the server merges...

Yeah DDO was doing awesome back then.

Well enough to last another 5 years, and still kickin'.

[cpito]

Who cares if casual players have the same or similar gear as you do? They still suck and gear won't change that.

Why does casual = sucks?

[stoerm]

Like it or not, many players play for the epeen factor. That can be gear, character stats, skills, whatever. If you can buy the gear and "max out" your character by running a trivial 2 minute quest over and over, that just leaves skill and TR count to brag about. If I cared I'd be at least as concerned about the way you can farm one or two quests to cap EDs in a couple days. I can't help but wonder whether it was intentional and if not, what they are thinking at Turbine. In my mind it went something like:

"Yay, we invested a lot into making a new end game for DDO. This will keep the players busy for YEARS, just look how much XP it requires. Now just sit back while they grind and spend TP. What's that, they're already done? Fuuuuuuuuu! What do we do now?!"

[Ape_Man]

Why does casual = sucks?

it's a broad generalization but this is the internet, the place for broad generalizations.

The point is gear does not equal good. A terrible player in ubber gear is still terrible.

[Vellrad]

Why does casual = sucks?

Because only the 0,001% of the most uber elitists with uber gear, uber builds and uber items are allowed to be good, and those who are not good =sucks. And if you dare to get something they have in less time, its like blasphemy, regardless if you had too much TP or lucky pull on first time in raid. Because they are less good, when someone else got something they consider uber.

[stoerm]

Why does casual = sucks?

It's important for some people to feel superior to others. Even in an cooperative online computer game.

[Sarnind]

It's important for some people to feel superior to others. Even in an cooperative online computer game.

and find this strange?thank god we are not all the same.

[Ape_Man]

and find this strange?thank god we are not all the same.

I couldn't agree more.

One's skill in a video game amounts to nothing regarding their value as a human being.

[DeafeningWhisper]

and find this strange?thank god we are not all the same.

If you can't have fun unless you feel superior to other annonymous players in a make believe world, well I feel for you...

I mean, I play with my friends to have fun completing quests and getting loot, my ego doesn't require me to be better then others to achieve that.

Oh well, to each their own I guess?

[chrisdinus7]

I have to agree with this. But I digress...it's not about the way I like to play...or the way YOU like to play...or how you define "win". All of these things are philosophical distractions.

If DDO is not a pay-to-win game as it is now, fine. Then there is NO such thing as a pay-to-win game. Name me a game more pay-ish-to-win-ish than DDO? Warner Brothers has out-prostituted even the wackos over at WoW. Now that's saying something.

I'm not mad. I just logged out after 6 hours of playing. Will continue playing. Just saying the "slippery slope" analogy is past having any relevance. We are here. We are a pay-to-win game.

You seem to be throwing things around just to see what sticks. WoW is not a p2w game. You can buy nothing in WoW that gives you an in-game advantage. The closest you could come is to pay for a fake account to get some temporary XP bonuses through their referral program (which is even less useful than it would be in DDO).

You should see the +4 tomes are for sale thread to see what p2w means. Ungood does a reasonable job explaining it. DDO isn't p2w, because you can't buy any advantage that can't be gotten in game. The closest they have come is the tome fate +2, though, with U16, that is effectively gone for the moment. You don't get redefine terms just because you don't know what they mean.

[Juduss]

One's skill in a video game amounts to nothing regarding their value as a human being.

A man with his priorities so far out of whack doesn't deserve such a fine driving automobile...

[HastyPudding]

Ignoring the absurdity of DDO being considered P2W...I feel that people who 'buy' their way to the 'top ranking players' list have a side effect on the rest of us who earn it. If I'm in a party with somebody or somebodies that are in this supposed echelon, then they're inadvertently helping me get loot, too, so that I can have such loot, as well.

[teh_meh]

You should see the +4 tomes are for sale thread to see what p2w means. Ungood does a reasonable job explaining it. DDO isn't p2w, because you can't buy any advantage that can't be gotten in game.

Stop letting people lawyer you around. I got a friend in game who *just* pulled his first +4 tome in 6 years of playing. Dude is on daily. Less than a week later, the damnn things go on sale in the store.

One +4 tome in 6 years for a guy with a full suite of capped characters, who's on every single day...THAT'S your idea of "available in game"? Come on man.

[Sonos]

For teh love of Gawd! Someone please tell me who won DDO? I need to ask them a few questions. Like how did they win, did they purchase anything from the store to make their winning come sooner, what's it like, what is winning anyway, etc.

Please PM me with name. thank you.

[eonfreon]

Stop letting people lawyer you around. I got a friend in game who *just* pulled his first +4 tome in 6 years of playing. Dude is on daily. Less than a week later, the damnn things go on sale in the store.

One +4 tome in 6 years for a guy with a full suite of capped characters, who's on every single day...THAT'S your idea of "available in game"? Come on man.

+4 Tomes have not existed in DDO for all of those 6 years. Far less than that. Perspective.

[chrisdinus7]

Stop letting people lawyer you around. I got a friend in game who *just* pulled his first +4 tome in 6 years of playing. Dude is on daily. Less than a week later, the damnn things go on sale in the store.

One +4 tome in 6 years for a guy with a full suite of capped characters, who's on every single day...THAT'S your idea of "available in game"? Come on man.

Then he is running the wrong quests. I agree they should have let the +4s and +5s from the new loot tables stew a bit longer from the U16 change. But, unbound +4s aren't that valuable after U16. I have seen them given away (again, before they went on sale). Did they used to be rare? Yes. Are they now? Not really. They have been pulled from EH Party Crashers (you can get a +5 there, in fact). They have been pulled from CR 23 challenges. You have around a 1 in 330 chance of getting one per chest that is high enough level and about a 1 in 1,200 chance from the next set of lower level chests.

Saying one guy hasn't had much luck pulling them hardly shows they are rare. It took me more runs to get a bauble (by far) then it has taken (or takes on average) to get a +4 now. Power creep (which is fine if not too extreme, IMO) has destroyed the value and rarity of +4 book - not the selling of it in the store. It is just that some folks haven't adjusted their expectations that +4 books are like +3 books after MoTU.

[Beethoven]

If I have a million TP and endless points cards to offer people, ...

You are basically talking about being independently wealthy. However, why stop there? If money is no object there is nothing to keep me from simply instead buying a team of developers, all the licenses I need and make them develop a game entirely to my specifications (complete with a special god-mode only I have access to).

Now, for the rest of us normal people the question rather is: why would I want to spend significant amounts of real money just so I don't have to play the game if I already can not play the game for free?


Lets look at all that items that bound to character on equip, all of them have rather low drop rate and can be tradeable. I don't think that is coincident, and was made in porpous to allow selling items for real money. If that items was BtA im shure that drops rates would be a lot higher. I can be wrong but right now my fealings are that all new items with BtCoE are just a cash grab for turbine

They brought out packs were everything (from loot to ingridients) was BTC and hardly a week went by were people didn't complain about it. In the next set of packs they did BTCoE instead and now we complain about "cash grab".

They probably did it in purpose so people can trade loot (again), but highly doubt they rely on people spending exorbitant amounts of dollars just so they don't have to play. It's still nice to know that the Planar Focus: Erudition items I pulled on my melee are not completely useless, but can be used to trade for - say - Planar Focus: Prowess items. The fact they could also be traded for TP is a small price to pay for keeping rare items exciting for as many people as possible. So, there might be a couple cases were Turbine makes some extra money. I much rather have that than pulling rare items and then having to sell them as vendor trash.


I m a elitist, read my signature, my comment was sarcastic, in this game u not need skill, all epic content EE is easy(eccept certain raids, EE lob, EE citw) and no sense running raids in EE, everyone can get the best equipment in EN or EH. This game is only for casual players now

You realize that in the last two updates EE drop different versions of loot than EH and EN. It is indicative of a trend were it will eventually make a lot of sense to run EE. You also talk about farming tokens, so I am getting the impression you are mostly referring to Eberron Epics - one to two year old content. So, content from a year ago is easy now. I wish you good luck in finding a game were this won't hold true, but am afraid you are setting yourself up for disappointment.


One +4 tome in 6 years for a guy with a full suite of capped characters, who's on every single day...THAT'S your idea of "available in game"? Come on man.

It's because we are talking about a lottery system and you are using an extreme. Meanwhile I personally wittnessed a guy pull 3! +4 tomes in a single night of raiding. Granted this was a fluke and these were the only tomes dropping the entire night. I'd be to take this specific example though, I could argue they are not only available but common.

The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle, there are some people who are extremely lucky with those pulls and will see several in a relative short period of time and there will be some very unlucky and won't see any in years. Most people like to split the difference in cases like this agree on "available".

Also, there are two more variables your example doesn't even touch: how are the rest of your friend pulls? Did he pull stuff that can be used (in terms of value) to trade for +4 tomes? And did he actually even try (ie: farm for it)? It is my experience that those who actually farm them (ie: collect any loot gems they can, perhaps even roll a chest blesser and wait for a loot weekend and then hit level 24 chests on EE) have had a significantly better luck in pulling those things than those who solely relied on their standard questing/chests.

[Cyr]

Well enough to last another 5 years, and still kickin'.

Uh huh.

Content crisis was a great period for the game too.

One thing saved DDO and that was F2P. Those proclaiming something was serious wrong were right back then. Something was seriously wrong.

So wrong that Turbine was willing to gamble the entire property on F2P. It worked.

Thankfully someone at Turbine realized how bad things were and acted accordingly.

[chrisdinus7]

You mean the year when they had the server merges...

Yeah DDO was doing awesome back then.

Humans, in general, are terrible at making economic or political predictions. In fact, people are generally no better at making predictions that simply randomly selecting among the possibilities. Whatever argument / reasoning you are using to convince yourself that it is doom & gloom ahead or sunny days, just bear in mind that it is about as likely to be accurate has having flipped a coin. See Philip Tetlock's research for details.

[Dawnsfire]

Let's just declare it and put the pointless debate behind us. If I have a million TP and endless points cards to offer people, what are the things I can't buy or trade for now (that people at endgame actually use)?

+4/+5 upgrade tomes
CitW raid items and heroic comms
Bauble
Shards/Seals for less than 10 of the old epic items
Madstone boots (do melee even use these anymore?)
Shards of Power from the Shroud (again, getting really hard to justify a slot for GS at current end game now)
Litany
Kormor's Belt

That's it...I'm spent. With a list this short I don't see the point in arguing about it. So why are we?

Having played PW and having talked to my brother (who played Evony), I am under the impression that you have never played a Pay2Win game.

[kafrielveddicus]

Quick question!

Isn't life in general a Pay to Win???

I like winning!

Narc shouts out "WINNING!" followed by "TIGER BLOOD"

Roflmao!


In all seriousness who cares who buys what, if it keeps the game going, I am all for it!!!

[Greyhawk6]

DDO has been pay to win since it adopted the free to play model.

Most free games are Pay to Win. I dont really care since the more options the better and if I choose not to bother I wont bother. Plus its no substitute for skill as people have said already.

[Kushiel]

My *opinion* (which differs from yours - and that's what it is, Opinion) is that it is Pay to have Fun, at the "worst" if getting enjoyment out of spending money or accumulated TP is somehow a "Bad Thing" in the current economy.

It expands options for how *some* people *may* choose to approach their overall game experience... or recover from something going horribly wrong.

It is not mandatory. One does not have to buy a specific item to progress through the game (and hopefully have fun) no more than it is mandatory to have GreenSteel, run Challenges, TR, grind Destinies, or epic out every piece of possible gear and fill it with massive augments.

More choices, more options, more varieties of approaching the world - Yes, Please!!

[Missing_Minds]

Stop letting people lawyer you around. I got a friend in game who *just* pulled his first +4 tome in 6 years of playing. Dude is on daily. Less than a week later, the damnn things go on sale in the store.

One +4 tome in 6 years for a guy with a full suite of capped characters, who's on every single day...THAT'S your idea of "available in game"? Come on man.
You want to back that up now with just how long +4 has actually been in the game? Ignoring Festivus.

[Gkar]

Uh huh.

Content crisis was a great period for the game too.

One thing saved DDO and that was F2P. Those proclaiming something was serious wrong were right back then. Something was seriously wrong.

So wrong that Turbine was willing to gamble the entire property on F2P. It worked.

Thankfully someone at Turbine realized how bad things were and acted accordingly.

You do remember it was a bit more complex than that right? All the marketting problems, Atari and Turbine suing each other, Turbine's D&D license facing some serious questions, etc?

[rimble]

You want to back that up now with just how long +4 has actually been in the game? Ignoring Festivus.

I've been playing since launch and only just pulled my first Treads of Falling Shadow.

[Cetus]

Well thats your own failing and perception.

Why not think of that +4 in the same way I would if someone gave me a free bang and olfsen stero. Sure, I could throw a little girl style sulking fit because i can go buy it in a shop.... or I could be HAPPY with getting one for free!

Hey, that was a sincere expression of my sentiments on behalf of this issue. And you call it a failure?

I offered my opinion, not inquiry about ways I can "improve" my perspective. That's how I view it, and I'm sticking to it. Because that's what makes the game interesting for ME.



So you need a rare item in a game to feel special?? Think that says more about your maturity level then anything. +3 tomes have been in the store for awhile and I still see plenty of people get excited (notice excited or happy, doubt it makes the feel o so special) to pull one and see them traded quite often so I think people are really over exaggerating how many people buy these from the store.

Yes, having a rare item does make me feel special. And yes, you are perceptive sir, I am very immature for valuing a shiny in an MMO.

[thunir]

I get that Turbine is a Pay to play Business model, but news of the +4 tomes broke my heart. There is no real risk for reward in the game anymore. Epic loot that tops any currently in game is now found in chest and unbound, +4 tomes for sale, I hope turbine considers the fact that I don't even have an incentive to buy new content if i can get nay of the loot I want on the AH?

There has to be some comprimise on this issue Devs? I know you probably feel "damned if you do damned if you dont" because the older model for loot generation just had alot of people complaining about the grind. But still, just because you have finally introduced +5 tomes doesnt mean you should ignore this issue and and keep eroding any kind of reward system in the game by selling +4's openly.

I would dare to say the Loot keeps people playing more that new content....

[goodspeed]

how is anything pay to win when it's become widely available in game for free. Hell I think the only thing that isn't completely common are green scales now.

Hell you don't even have to run a quest or have a pack anymore to get some gear just buy the **** thing off the ah and it binds when equipped.

[Ape_Man]

. . . I am very immature for valuing a shiny in an MMO.

We ALL values our virtual shinnies . . . if we didn't why would there be a demand for people to buy stat-tomes FOR REAL MONEY.

But here's the thing about stat tomes . .. it's all luck. Lottery winning luck. I have two toons with about 200+ TOD runs in them, one has three +4 tomes, the other has none. No amount of game skill, cunning, etc is going to make a difference on that. One toon got lucky, the other didn't.

All this particular "P2Win" is is a pay to avoid mindless chest farming of EE level 27 chests. Pay 2 avoid running Tower on toons who don't need rings for the chance of not pulling +4 tomes. Pay 2 leave out-levelled content behind and focus on new stuff.

This is just a pay to stab lady luck in the eye, nothing more.

[Handpicked]

DDO is like life. Having money affords you advantages over those that do not. An unfortunate system that does not promote fairness... but, than again, that too is reflective of life.

At the end of the day it makes me smile to remember that no matter how uberleet you think your greensteel'd madstoned 'toon' is... you pale in comparison to to Paris Hilton after the DDO Store.


You would have a point if DDO was a PvP game, but really there is nothing to win in DDO since it is essentially a PvE game. How do you "beat" another player in DDO? There is no such thing as P2W in games that aren't PvP.

I'd have to agree. I saw the term Pay to Cheat used earliar and its way more accurate.

[Cetus]

We ALL values our virtual shinnies . . . if we didn't why would there be a demand for people to buy stat-tomes FOR REAL MONEY.

But here's the thing about stat tomes . .. it's all luck. Lottery winning luck. I have two toons with about 200+ TOD runs in them, one has three +4 tomes, the other has none. No amount of game skill, cunning, etc is going to make a difference on that. One toon got lucky, the other didn't.

All this particular "P2Win" is is a pay to avoid mindless chest farming of EE level 27 chests. Pay 2 avoid running Tower on toons who don't need rings for the chance of not pulling +4 tomes. Pay 2 leave out-levelled content behind and focus on new stuff.

This is just a pay to stab lady luck in the eye, nothing more.

I understand your point, but the very fact of having "no reason" to run any of that stuff anymore isn't very good for my gaming experience.

BECAUSE I am more likely to run something if I have incentive. Heres a blatantly obvious example: Titan. Self-explanatory - no reward results in total abandonment.

It took you 200 runs in tod, I agree with you it is frustrating as all hell, but you ran the content with the hope of getting something out of there you didn't already have.

The longevity of this content is undermined by the availability of this item. I do farming runs all the time hoping to get a +4 tome, now I'll only reserve them for 27 level chests for +5
s. Whats the point to even hit the lower than 27 chests now?

[Ape_Man]

I understand your point, but the very fact of having "no reason" to run any of that stuff anymore isn't very good for my gaming experience.

BECAUSE I am more likely to run something if I have incentive. Heres a blatantly obvious example: Titan. Self-explanatory - no reward results in total abandonment.

It took you 200 runs in tod, I agree with you it is frustrating as all hell, but you ran the content with the hope of getting something out of there you didn't already have.

The longevity of this content is undermined by the availability of this item. I do farming runs all the time hoping to get a +4 tome, now I'll only reserve them for 27 level chests for +5
s. Whats the point to even hit the lower than 27 chests now?

There are new shinies and there will be new shinies.

I've abandoned several sets of Epic Spectral Gloves, three Moron helms, a 5 piece Abishai sets, and a partridge in a pear tree. Don't get me started on all the Green Steel I never use now.

It is would it is, think of it as numbing you out a little for WHEN (not if) they decide to out-date the ESOS.

[kafrielveddicus]

DDO is like life. Having money affords you advantages over those that do not. An unfortunate system that does not promote fairness... but, than again, that too is reflective of life.

At the end of the day it makes me smile to remember that no matter how uberleet you think your greensteel'd madstoned 'toon' is... you pale in comparison to to Paris Hilton after the DDO Store.



I'd have to agree. I saw the term Pay to Cheat used earliar and its way more accurate.

Having money comes from earning it, it is completely fair, it also allows you the advantage of giving your children an advantage in their life and possibly for generations to come, although it certainly doesn't guarantee it as many of fortunes have been squandered by the next generation. The people that have earned the money have the advantage because they are advantaged(advanced in evolution), using your money to supposedly pay to cheat is completely up to those that have money and funny enough I am sure they don't look at it as cheating they look at it as money well spent and time saved that those that don't have money have to spend grinding there chiseled hard worked fingers.

Just my opinion!

Note: This coming from someone who has lots of money and other than a basic VIP account which allows me to enjoy the game at a relaxed uncompetitive non Uber-elite pace. In other words I dont spend any on trinkets from the ddo store.

Second Note: I am sure many of the people complaining about those that are spending money to supposedly win a fantasy game are upset because about the only place they will ever come close to being at the top of the food chain will be in a fantasy game! Most unfortunate!

[Enoach]

First I would like to say:


when +1 Tomes came to the store I was disappointed
when +2 Tomes came to the store I was disappointed
when +3 Tomes came to the store I felt that Turbine was stepping on Content Rewards (However I admit I bought a +3 Intelligence Tome for my Wizard as I was tired of farming for one and coming up empty)
Now +4 Tomes are coming to the store, I'm again disappointed not because they are here (I saw the writing on the wall) but because I think it is to soon - I've only pulled 1 +4 Tome and 2 +3 to +4 upgrade tomes and I was hoping to have at least the main stats on my 5 characters updated to +4s before Turbine released them at the Store...


Some argue that DDO has become P2W and others say it has not:

For me I see the DDOStore as a shortcut to acquire something a little better than starter gear, or Cosmetic items, additional storage, convenience items (ie. Circlet of Friends, Omi components) and character upgrades (such as the XP, Stat and ED tomes)

What the store currently does not do is sells you completions (while it could be argued the Raid Bypass comes close). Some will say unlimited SP potions is buying completions, but miss the fact that it does not matter how many SP potions you have, if you can't stay alive they will do you no good.

While bragging rights are all well and good sometimes people just get tired of waiting their turn for the loot gods to smile on them. I know I have on occasion felt this way and I've been playing since Fall of '06. Over 80 runs of ToD and not one Cleric Ring Chest/or End Reward. During that time not one +4 Tome.

While I don't consider it winning the game because you bought Tomes from the store instead of farming them, I have seen the difference in ability between those that lean on their pocket book and those that play the game.

Maybe things like +4 tomes coming to the store would be less of an issue if Favor rewards got changed to grow with each TR. Such as the 1750 Favor updating to +3 Tomes after so many lives, or adding a real reward to the current top Tier of the Twelve.

[coldblade000]

True, there are new items and weapons in the expansion content that can and will quickly replaced old, hard worked for gear. But that doesn't mean your replaced gear is suddenly useless forever. It just means a lower leveled version character will enjoy it once it reaches the minimum level. Maximum power for the level is always the goal.

Sure, there are plenty of minimum level 20 loot gen that hits that levels gear hard, but minimum level 18 gear I still adore and see an advantage in, and anything above minimum level 20 I want to be as bad ass as possible for all the new abilities my enemies have.

Yes, that makes going back to content before the expansion even easier but I thought that is why they made Epic Elite such a jump harder than Epic Hard. Having not gotten to experience many Elites before the change though, I can't vouch for difficulty changes in that area. Personally though, I rather enjoyed the thought of going back to that older content even stronger and cleaning up my favor I wouldn't normally get. ((Ultra Elite Pro Gamer's dont play in nearly the same numbers as casual players, we don't power cap for a long, loooooong time))

The time gap between my loot is still pretty far, I'm still overjoyed when I get a shot at a Green Steel item. There's still so much I need to acquire and do, and I've been playing for a pretty long time. I'm not saying this is everyones experience, but there are plenty of people like me in these stages who these changes effect in smaller ways, whose personal game play must also get balanced for. Eventually you will get so good this game is easy, that's a good thing. Don't get mad. Isn't that why we all level and collect better gear?

Also, when it comes to tomes giving power in the DDO store ((because besides Greensteel ingredients, what else is there to really buy?)) last I checked those had a minimum level to use as well, and TR only get the past stat point back once they reach that level.

[pHo3nix]

Second Note: I am sure many of the people complaining about those that are spending money to supposedly win a fantasy game are upset because about the only place they will ever come close to being at the top of the food chain will be in a fantasy game! Most unfortunate!

1st: it depends on how those money are "earned".
2nd: money are not everything in life, you can't buy skills (in everything, not only in games), you can't buy a decent body, you can't buy friends and you can't buy many other things that to me are way more important than what you can buy with money.

Oh, and if by the top of the food chain you mean being a rich obese person that only got human interactions and anything else cause he got money then i'm more than happy to not be there ;)

[rimble]

I was hoping to have at least the main stats on my 5 characters updated to +4s before Turbine released them at the Store...
[/list]


Why? I mean why was that a goal for you? You were content to grind out your +4s. You can still grind out your +4s. What changed? What caused you disappointment? I'm sincerely asking, not trying to badger or lead into a verbal trap. I'm honestly confused by such a sentiment.

[LordMond63]

First off, how does one "win" DDO?

Being able to defeat any content on any difficulty level? I'd think there are many who can do that already, and they may or may not have +4 Tomes to at least partially thank for that capability.

Secondly, how does one player having a +4 Tome (or, indeed, any piece of really top-notch gear) negatively impact someone else's ability to join the game? I have to assume that it does, else this would not be an issue. And does the fact that player 1 got his tome as a quest reward make his possession of it have less of an impact on your enjoyment than player 2, who bought his in the DDO store? Why?

Personally, I play the game for my own enjoyment. What someone else has and how they got it matters not a bit to me.

[Enoach]

Why? I mean why was that a goal for you? You were content to grind out your +4s. You can still grind out your +4s. What changed? What caused you disappointment? I'm sincerely asking, not trying to badger or lead into a verbal trap. I'm honestly confused by such a sentiment.

It was simply to avoid my temptation that is all, the only change is now I have an option. If a store sells something I don't need the store has no effect on my gaming. However, if it can sell me something I might want, I would be tempted to "shortcut it" if I can. I'm not against them selling them, I just feel it is to soon (all personal feeling no real facts to back up my feelings)

For example I have not used the +4 upgrades that I've found yet as the character that I was planning to use them on has them in +3 is not high enough yet to use them (in the middle of a TR when they were found). Now however, I am tempted to wait and buy the supreme +3 to +4 tome and use that saved TP for something other than Bank Slots.

[rimble]

It was simply to avoid my temptation that is all, the only change is now I have an option. If a store sells something I don't need the store has no effect on my gaming. However, if it can sell me something I might want, I would be tempted to "shortcut it" if I can.

Yeah, I guess it gets mentally harder and harder to keep banging your head against that +4 (or +5) tome farming wall when that shiny tome is just sitting there on the shelf mocking you.

To me, though, I kind of react oppositely. If I'm down to only needing tomes before I'm 'done' with my character, I absolutely don't want to buy them...because then what will I do?! However, if tomes are one thing I need out of a dozen...maybe I'll buy those so I can concentrate on getting the other things I can't buy (though in practice, I'll not buy the tomes and just go after those other non-tome things I still need and hope a few tomes show up along the way).

[Torkzed]

I see a lot of people asking how you "Win DDO". There is a simple answer. You complete one life (to level 20) in every class. Then "You win DDO". It says so right in the game.

For the rest of you arguing about gear and tomes, you don't need that much stuff to win. It's pretty straightforward, really. (No, I haven't done it, but I have enough TR lives to see it is only a matter of time if I decided to do it.)

Oh...I guess it does help to get a few greensteel items, maybe some crafted twink gear. But really, you could probably level to 20 in korthos gear if you have enough spare time. You certainly don't need to pay Turbine a dime.

There is no need to thank me for solving this mystery, just trying to help. :)

(I didnt read every post in the thread, so if someone already pointed this out, then my apologies to the first poster.)

[Sonos]

I see a lot of people asking how you "Win DDO". There is a simple answer. You complete one life (to level 20) in every class. Then "You win DDO". It says so right in the game.

For the rest of you arguing about gear and tomes, you don't need that much stuff to win. It's pretty straightforward, really. (No, I haven't done it, but I have enough TR lives to see it is only a matter of time if I decided to do it.)

Oh...I guess it does help to get a few greensteel items, maybe some crafted twink gear. But really, you could probably level to 20 in korthos gear if you have enough spare time. You certainly don't need to pay Turbine a dime.

There is no need to thank me for solving this mystery, just trying to help. :)

(I didnt read every post in the thread, so if someone already pointed this out, then my apologies to the first poster.)


Well you kind of brought that whole argument home. There is no possibility of winning or beating DDO. The devs very correctly put that tidbit in as a tongue-in-cheek fun thing: "You win DDO!",

In Chess, there is a clear winner, or there is stalemate, but there is the possibility for one to declare oneself a winner. This is called a Finite Game.

Football is a finite game, there is the goal to emerge victorious, while a loser is also declared.

DDO like DnD, bears more of a resemblance to an infinite game(life being the touchstone of all infinite games), it has the potential to go on and on with no real end.

(I suppose if you pick Permadeath, for that toon it could be considered a loser as it has been deemed to be now and forever deceased.)

An infinite game continues play, for sake of play.

[Missing_Minds]

First off, how does one "win" DDO?
By getting one's significant other hooked on DDO as much as you are?

[Sonos]

By getting one's significant other hooked on DDO as much as you are?

QFT

That is an amazing accomplishment.

I just hope I never see a post that says "It's high time we put a timer on Waggro pots", because some just need to chug more than others and that's ok as long as we all get to play :P

[SockMonkey]

I came, I paid, I won.

And what!?

[Ganak]

I don't think the DDO store offers that big a boost/game breaker for 97% of the store items (even via +4 tomes or +2 fate points).

It brings revenue to Turbine which will help make this game last longer.

If some fella eats a +4 supreme tome, that won't put a defining seperation against other players, but adds $30 or so to the game (and maybe helps the +4 supreme tome gimp not die so much). Winning!


I have always been uneasy about store spell point pots. I feel they remove a strategic aspect to playing casters. I don't respect the store sp pot chuggers.

[Karavek]

I don't think the DDO store offers that big a boost/game breaker for 97% of the store items (even via +4 tomes or +2 fate points).

It brings revenue to Turbine which will help make this game last longer.

If some fella eats a +4 supreme tome, that won't put a defining seperation against other players, but adds $30 or so to the game (and maybe helps the +4 supreme tome gimp not die so much). Winning!


I have always been uneasy about store spell point pots. I feel they remove a strategic aspect to playing casters. I don't respect the store sp pot chuggers.

Sorry but the ONLY thing one should actually show respect for to fellow gamers is their act of supporting the game. Those who you imply you would treat disrespectfully over their choice to purchase the single most logical thing to buy from the store is just plain wrong. I dont care one way or another what one does in a game no virtual action is worth the respect I would give a person who has actually done SOMETHING Id give respect over.

An example if I was to lose in a sparring match as a good sport Id bow and show my opponent respect despite losing. In a game if I lose I only see my own actions for certain and then have to determine if the others where free of any sort of mod or hack to give an advantage.

I play shooters now and then, especially FTP online ones which sadly are filled with hackers and modders to negate various in game disadvantages like poor light, stealth fields, or lower quality scopes with weaker sight aspects. Some for example will make a mod for their computer that will add sight markers and other things so they have effective cross hairs without sighting in. This is the common tool so called quick aim hip shooters use with slow firing hard hitting weapons like sniper rifles. Hence I never show respect to any but those I defeat as I know I am not modding or hacking, and if I kill them its likely they where not either.

The fact is you should always strive for common civility in an MMO but always hold back on things like respect or friendship as those are very very powerful things to give to someone whom you do not really no. For all you know the guy you show respect to in game for not chugging mana pots drinks a 24 pack every night and lays into his wife and kids. I had a good friend who had an entire raid party in WOW of 40 players sit and listen to a member of the group beat his wife while he left his open mic on. He was a very well liked and high ranking officer in their guild and everyone respected him. He beat his wife over trying to talk to him while he was playing. So when you feed someones ego adn amke them feel important in a game, be aware you could be feeding an ego that is best left starved.

[blerkington]

Sorry but the ONLY thing one should actually show respect for to fellow gamers is their act of supporting the game.

Hi,

I find this statement quite odd.

I respect people who play the game well and treat other people well in-game. I try to treat everyone I meet in game decently, but people who are unpleasant and/or unwilling to improve don't have my respect.

Our actions in-game and here on the forums, are all part of how we treat other people. The fact that it occurs in an electronic medium (just like e-mail or even over the telephone) makes no difference to me.

Thanks.

[Isolani]

Knowing that you could have bought it from the store takes away much of the excitement.

Why? I'm still happy when I find a planar gird, even though I could easily just buy one from auction. Finding something that I would have to pay RL money for otherwise would make me even happier. Maybe I am just weird, but knowing that there is a way to buy something doesn't detract from my enjoyment of looting it instead.

[Ungood]

By getting one's significant other hooked on DDO as much as you are?

Well dang.. I won a long time ago then. :D

[Missing_Minds]

QFT

That is an amazing accomplishment.

I just hope I never see a post that says "It's high time we put a timer on Waggro pots", because some just need to chug more than others and that's ok as long as we all get to play :P

If we tried to put a timer on chocolate or cheesecake, the "honey do" list would be the least of our worries. :)

The only timer I see that they would allow on such is the timer needed for proper cooking/creation.

[kafrielveddicus]

1st: it depends on how those money are "earned".
2nd: money are not everything in life, you can't buy skills (in everything, not only in games), you can't buy a decent body, you can't buy friends and you can't buy many other things that to me are way more important than what you can buy with money.

Oh, and if by the top of the food chain you mean being a rich obese person that only got human interactions and anything else cause he got money then i'm more than happy to not be there ;)

Lol, my version of the top of the chain, includes a mortgage free house that could house 8 people very comfortably, but I live there alone, a great body with good looks, a huge social network and dating 5+ women(who all know I am dating 5+ women) at any given time(oh and by the way any one of them would vouch for my skills). SO lets be sure to clear it up, those at the top of the food chain not only have the things that you speak of as more important than what money can buy(Because those at the top of the chain have personality too, this personality includes positivity and a huge lack of whining/complaining about how life isn't fair), plus they have money as well due to their intelligence, desire and drive(and not caring about what the other guy has).

When I see a guy complaining about his situation, or a guy trying to attack another guy with wit. I confidently laugh on the inside and say to myself this guy isn't competition. Successful, top of the chain people don't complain they do something about their situation, they dont attack others because they simply don't have to.

I wish you the best of luck in all your endeavours!

[cpito]

Sorry but the ONLY thing one should actually show respect for to fellow gamers is their act of supporting the game.


Hi,

I find this statement quite odd.

I respect people who play the game well and treat other people well in-game. I try to treat everyone I meet in game decently, but people who are unpleasant and/or unwilling to improve don't have my respect.

Our actions in-game and here on the forums, are all part of how we treat other people. The fact that it occurs in an electronic medium (just like e-mail or even over the telephone) makes no difference to me.

Thanks.

I think what Karavek was trying to say is that you shouldn't judge people (and therefore determine if you "respect" them personally or not) based on an MMO which really isn't that different from what you are saying. Common civility is the running theme in both of your posts and a most excellent point.

Unless a player comes out and specifically says where he got something, there is generally no way of knowing how those items were aquired. There are no separate indicator sounds/motions that indicate anything is store bought. There are no asterisks on stats that use store bought tomes. Since store items are also on the loot tables, the ONLY information we have to go on is player admission and player assumption and one of those does not actually qualify as any sort of fact. That some players are unwilling to give other players the benefit of the doubt is not a Turbine problem, it's a community issue.

[TrinityTurtle]

Technically it was from the first day it opened the door. The only 'winning' in DDO is entertainment. And before free to play, everyone had to pay to be entertained. Now people have choices, and some people get entertained for free entirely and unlock things through purely earned tps. But everyone else decides each for him or herself what is entertaining and what isn't, and how much he or she is willing to pay for it. Personally the only thing I buy from the store is res cakes and character slots, but I really don't care if uber player next to me buys every state in existance and uber purist on the other side buys nothing. Choice is good.

[Uma-Quixote]

Last time I checked DDO was not a competitive game, but a co-operative one...so there are no "winners"

[Gkar]

Last time I checked DDO was not a competitive game, but a co-operative one...so there are no "winners"

Clearly you haven't read the feat description for completionist :D

[Chai]

Let's just declare it and put the pointless debate behind us. If I have a million TP and endless points cards to offer people, what are the things I can't buy or trade for now (that people at endgame actually use)?

+4/+5 upgrade tomes
CitW raid items and heroic comms
Bauble
Shards/Seals for less than 10 of the old epic items
Madstone boots (do melee even use these anymore?)
Shards of Power from the Shroud (again, getting really hard to justify a slot for GS at current end game now)
Litany
Kormor's Belt

That's it...I'm spent. With a list this short I don't see the point in arguing about it. So why are we?

Is that a list of the next items youll be able to buy from the store soon? :p

Frustrated, degraded, down before you're done
Rejection, depression, can't get what you want
You ask me how I pay my way
You ask me everywhere and why
You hang on every word I say
But the truth sounds like a lie
Pay to win, 'till you die, 'till the light dies in your eyes
Pay to win, take it all, just keep fighting till you fall
Day by day, kickin' all the way, I'm not cavin' in
Let another round begin, pay to win
Yeah, pay, yeah, win

[Gkar]

Frustrated, degraded, down before you're done
Rejection, depression, can't get what you want
You ask me how I pay my way
You ask me everywhere and why
You hang on every word I say
But the truth sounds like a lie
Pay to win, 'till you die, 'till the light dies in your eyes
Pay to win, take it all, just keep fighting till you fall
Day by day, kickin' all the way, I'm not cavin' in
Let another round begin, pay to win
Yeah, pay, yeah, win

Yeah I can't figure out what toon you are trying to make a play on here

[Chai]

I understand your point, but the very fact of having "no reason" to run any of that stuff anymore isn't very good for my gaming experience.

BECAUSE I am more likely to run something if I have incentive. Heres a blatantly obvious example: Titan. Self-explanatory - no reward results in total abandonment.

It took you 200 runs in tod, I agree with you it is frustrating as all hell, but you ran the content with the hope of getting something out of there you didn't already have.

The longevity of this content is undermined by the availability of this item. I do farming runs all the time hoping to get a +4 tome, now I'll only reserve them for 27 level chests for +5
s. Whats the point to even hit the lower than 27 chests now?

You wont even need to hit the above level 27s when the +5s are made available in the store. Theyll wait to drop those on us after the game saturates with +4s, just like they waited to drop the +4s on us until the game was saturated with +3s.

It wasnt that long ago when the hot topic of the p2w discussions was +3 tomes in the store, because those were the first ones in game that were really only being pulled as raid loot at that time.

[Chai]

Yeah I can't figure out what toon you are trying to make a play on here

Ever see the World of Warcraft South Park episode?

[Chai]

You would have a point if DDO was a PvP game, but really there is nothing to win in DDO since it is essentially a PvE game. How do you "beat" another player in DDO? There is no such thing as P2W in games that aren't PvP.

If English slang terms meant the literal sum of each of their words, youd be right. Since they dont, youre not. I see this rules lawyering often, that because no ones really "winning" its not pay to win. This rules lawyering is false pertaining to the actual definition of the term, which does not rely on "winning" to live up to the terms definition, which is not the sum of the definitions of the individual words used in the term.

[dejafu]

Let's just declare it and put the pointless debate behind us.

Sooooo if the debate is pointless, why are you starting a thread that would (and did) doubtlessly turn into a debate?

[Ape_Man]

Sooooo if the debate is pointless, why are you starting a thread that would (and did) doubtlessly turn into a debate?

Slow day at work?

[teh_meh]

Okay...so, in summary:

(a) for those who don't attribute loot to victory, there is no 'win' so it can't be pay-2o-win which means Turbine can sell anything in game including past lives and it doesn't matter because there's always skill, community and foo foo

(b) for those who DO attribute loot to victory, you can now come in off the street with points cards and trade for /buy everything you need to gear for end game except 6 or 7 things...without ever swinging a sword.

Sound about right?

[Qhualor]

Okay...so, in summary:

(a) for those who don't attribute loot to victory, there is no 'win' so it can't be pay-2o-win which means Turbine can sell anything in game including past lives and it doesn't matter because there's always skill, community and foo foo

(b) for those who DO attribute loot to victory, you can now come in off the street with points cards and trade for /buy everything you need to gear for end game except 6 or 7 things...without ever swinging a sword.

Sound about right?

Actually, it does sound about right.

[mobrien316]

Okay...so, in summary:

(a) for those who don't attribute loot to victory, there is no 'win' so it can't be pay-2o-win which means Turbine can sell anything in game including past lives and it doesn't matter because there's always skill, community and foo foo

(b) for those who DO attribute loot to victory, you can now come in off the street with points cards and trade for /buy everything you need to gear for end game except 6 or 7 things...without ever swinging a sword.

Sound about right?

I think it would be more accurate to say:

(a) If you have fun playing DDO while buying things in the store, good for you and go enjoy yourself!

(b) If you have fun by only using what you get in-game, good for you and go enjoy yourself!

(c) If you allow the method by which other people obtain their loot to ruin your fun, stop. Don't worry about what other people are or are not buying in the store, and go enjoy yourself!

[Ape_Man]

Okay...so, in summary:

(a) for those who don't attribute loot to victory, there is no 'win' so it can't be pay-2o-win which means Turbine can sell anything in game including past lives and it doesn't matter because there's always skill, community and foo foo

(b) for those who DO attribute loot to victory, you can now come in off the street with points cards and trade for /buy everything you need to gear for end game except 6 or 7 things...without ever swinging a sword.

Sound about right?

Considering a piece of gear, that it's pull being pure dumb luck, an achievement is akin considering a lottery winner to being a person who earned his money.

gear is not an achievement.

Piles of SP pots being available in the store is BY FAR more P2Win and like only like 5 people in the game have any issue with that any more.

[teh_meh]

gear is not an achievement.

yes it is. When gear X only drops in difficulty Y (as it does, this is the reality of things) you achieve something others have not when you acquire it.

[Ape_Man]

yes it is. When gear X only drops in difficulty Y (as it does, this is the reality of things) you achieve something others have not when you acquire it.

If a tank never pulled a Chattering Ring (when that actually mattered) yet never had a problem doing his job. Would that piece of gear been more of an achievement?

My "joke" of a wizard pulled her PM ring on her first TOD and her Litany within here first 10 Abbots. people will sometimes complete the same quests 100 times and not pull it. What awesome achievement was there?

If a group is zerging the High road quests on EE . . would pulling any of the items, that they arguably don't need, make them any better or worse of players?

You're telling me pulling a +4 tome at this state in the game is ANYTHING MORE THAN DUMB LUCK? Really?

[teh_meh]

If a tank never pulled a Chattering Ring (when that actually mattered) yet never had a problem doing his job. Would that piece of gear been more of an achievement?

My "joke" of a wizard pulled her PM ring on her first TOD and her Litany within here first 10 Abbots. people will sometimes complete the same quests 100 times and not pull it. What awesome achievement was there?

If a group is zerging the High road quests on EE . . would pulling any of the items, that they arguably don't need, make them any better or worse of players?

You're telling me pulling a +4 tome at this state in the game is ANYTHING MORE THAN DUMB LUCK? Really?

You cannot get X, unless you run difficulty Y or have Turbine points cards to trade for it.

You're trying to suggest that if if I go run Cannith Crystal 1,000,000 times...eventually dumb luck will give me a +4 tome. So accordingly, I do not understand the words coming out of your mouth.

[Arnhelm]

OP, what do you mean, "now"?

[teh_meh]

OP, what do you mean, "now"?

touche. I am late to the par-tay. I do spent most of my time in game. I just come here in spurts when I need to blow off some steam.

[Ape_Man]

You cannot get X, unless you run difficulty Y or have Turbine points cards to trade for it.

It takes NO SKILL to invis and chest farm for +4 tomes in several EE quests that don't require any combat to loot the chests.

+4s were dropping in EH High road during the +2 loot weekend. So they'll drop now on EH with a +2 loot gem.

+4 tomes drop from breakables.

+4 tomes from from EH Dragon/DQ and NORMAL TOD.

Do I need to point our any more easy/moderate stuff that drops +4 tomes? I got one for an end-reward for a non-20th EH CiTW,

Turbine point card trading is rare but come on, far more stuff is traded for reds and other currency. And even if people were rampantly trading TP point codes for stuff be the SELLER and play for free.




You're trying to suggest that if if I go run Cannith Crystal 1,000,000 times...eventually dumb luck will give me a +4 tome. So accordingly, I do not understand the words coming out of your mouth.


Absolute strawman nonsense. +4 tomes drop in easy stuff all the time now that doesn't require you to be "elite" to pull off. I'm assuming you don't condier EH High Road quests to be difficult.

[Certon]

DDO has been pay to win since it became F2P. You need to get over it already.

Someone with disposable income could conceivably solo just about any quest in the game, get 30% bonus experience for said quest, receive +2 loot bonus to every chest, have a full party of support via gold seal contracts, and infinite lives with spirit cakes.

Every time I hear someone whine about how DDO has become Pay to Win, all I hear is yesterday's news.

Again, get over it.

[Missing_Minds]

Okay...so, in summary:

Some people will complain, the majority of people won't.

Sound about right?

Yeap, sounds about right.

[die]

ddo has been pay to win since it became f2p. You need to get over it already.

Someone with disposable income could conceivably solo just about any quest in the game, get 30% bonus experience for said quest, receive +2 loot bonus to every chest, have a full party of support via gold seal contracts, and infinite lives with spirit cakes.

Every time i hear someone whine about how ddo has become pay to win, all i hear is yesterday's news.

Again, get over it.

+1

[Tictman]

Dungeons and Dragons isn't meant to a competition, nor does anyone win at it. It never has been since the first paperback book of rules was published. It's always been meant to be a fun time wasting hobby. I can dig out my old first edition Dungeon Masters Guide and post the direct quote to that point from the master himself. This game was never intended for someone to be the best at. If someone gets enjoyment from something they purchase so be it. After all if the entire game was free there would be no game. How would Turbine pay the bills, web servers, bandwidth, lights, devs are not all free.

[eonfreon]

Okay...so, in summary:

(a) for those who don't attribute loot to victory, there is no 'win' so it can't be pay-2o-win which means Turbine can sell anything in game including past lives and it doesn't matter because there's always skill, community and foo foo

(b) for those who DO attribute loot to victory, you can now come in off the street with points cards and trade for /buy everything you need to gear for end game except 6 or 7 things...without ever swinging a sword.

Sound about right?

How many people are really going to jump straight into category (b)?

It's overall a f2p game at the start. Few people are going to go nuts and pay a lot to get started playing. The more "p2w" aspects that are really power based come into play later on in game. What level's a +4 Tome for instance? Depending on a player he may get many chances at the items himself. Especially a guild driven individual; with a good guild's resources the chances jump way up.

However, if someone during the course of play doesn't have the opportunities to get the item, he can use tp to get it. Which is a currency that game time can also earn. I don't see too much trouble to allow a player access to that rather than having to grind it or join guilds or what have you. Yes, it can be circumvented with cash rather than in-game tp. It does make sense to allow money to circumvent some game time restrictions. It keeps the game going for one. In a way it is an equalizer.

I share the fear that the game will charge you to progress almost as a default. EDs went a long way in that respect, but I consider it an Expansion level of work and cost. That's just part of it nowadays. Before, the time sinks were there to keep players logging in and continuing to pay sub fees. Now with a f2p model there's the addition that time sinks may be used to push players to pay in some other way. Thus, to some, there's the feel that to pay is to "cheat" even though it helps pay the game. Because play can circumvent the need to pay for many things. So of course pay can circumvent the need to play or augment and enhance your game play, which in an MMO can have an effect both directly and indirectly to others' game play. As it stands now, two players can have all the same gear, through either pay or play and can have spent completely different amounts of money and time in the game.

I'm the type who prefers to play rather than pay extra. I like to contribute to the game financially so I get quests and character slots and stuff. Currently I've been on a break. I don't even have the EDs. But I do like it that I can come back and yes, even pay extra to catch up if I want to. Like most anyone else though, I won't go crazy in buying stuff, because I want to earn most anyway and I'll be rusty so I'll want to actually play the game to catch up.

Now some can consider that an unfair thing and are welcome to consider the fact that I would be tempted to pay to catch up as a form of cheating. So be it. My feeling won't be hurt. And that's what it boils down to as far as calling it Pay to Win.

What does the "win" actually mean in this case? Can achievements really be lessened for an individual because someone else may "cheat"? I thought that's what made the achievement even more of an accomplishment. That you didn't cheat, at least by someone's definition. And isn't that achievement of the individual anyway? People put up videos of their achievements. We can tell if they're cheating or playing by whatever rules matter to us.

DDO is an f2p game with some aspects of Pay to Win. Most f2p games have to. I think DDO has done a fair job of keeping it balanced. However, I can't speak for the exact current state of the game because I have taken a break. But it doesn't have much to do with P2W aspects. I like DDO but I'm just a bit burned out. The nice thing is I can pick it up when I want to. And since DDO does contribute to my entertainment I also like to contribute to the game's finances. Perhaps there's even some P2W things I'd like to get. I've never had to buy a Tome but it may be tempting depending on how long I'm away.

Most of life is P2W. I'm used to it. At least with DDO I can reasonably pay 10 to 15 dollars a month to have access to nearly everything. The rest of the loot is sort of the reason for me to play anyway, so I probably won't be too tempted to outright purchase them and negate the reason for playing for me. A +4 tome is not actually a big deal to me. I don't have any builds that depend on them. Few of the store things are really a big deal to me. I browse through it and mostly get bank and character slots and things. Now that's the annoying "P2W" thing, that "space" is so valuable and there are so few ways to expand it through in-game ways. Oh well, guess that's what my tps are for, whichever way I earn them.

I don't like that certain things are there, but I can understand why they are. If the game tips all the way to "real" P2W where gear will have to be bought because it doesn't drop any other way, then yes, they will have gone way too far. They do need to make sure that there are ways to acquire things in game without requiring to outright pay for it.

[Qhualor]

Dungeons and Dragons isn't meant to a competition, nor does anyone win at it. It never has been since the first paperback book of rules was published. It's always been meant to be a fun time wasting hobby. I can dig out my old first edition Dungeon Masters Guide and post the direct quote to that point from the master himself. This game was never intended for someone to be the best at. If someone gets enjoyment from something they purchase so be it. After all if the entire game was free there would be no game. How would Turbine pay the bills, web servers, bandwidth, lights, devs are not all free.

You mean to tell me that pets arent enough to pay for the game to keep running? I see them all over the place, so what are they paying for than? :)

Seriously, its not about actually winning anything. Its the affect it has on the game itself. By taking the need to run quests away or using outside resources instead of or also with in game resources to lessen the burden of running quests, it creates an easier way to accomplish your goals. Nobody seems to have time and in a hurry to "win" the game in their own perception.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Why? I'm still happy when I find a planar gird, even though I could easily just buy one from auction. Finding something that I would have to pay RL money for otherwise would make me even happier. Maybe I am just weird, but knowing that there is a way to buy something doesn't detract from my enjoyment of looting it instead.

Yeah, I don't see much difference between buying something from the store, and buying it from the AH... or worse.. the trade channel.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Re: being able to buy stuff is bad for the game

The person who is willing to drop some bills on the game, enjoys it for a few months, and then moves on is much more beneficial to the game than the purist who never spends a dime. All I'm hearing is a lot of sour grapes from those who can afford the time, but not the money, to grind out for items they want.

[Sonos]

If English slang terms meant the literal sum of each of their words, youd be right. Since they dont, youre not. I see this rules lawyering often, that because no ones really "winning" its not pay to win. This rules lawyering is false pertaining to the actual definition of the term, which does not rely on "winning" to live up to the terms definition, which is not the sum of the definitions of the individual words used in the term.


I'm pretty sure only you understand what you just said.

There is no end of game here and therefore, not really a way to win, nor compete, though I feel there is a slight meta-game that only you and handful of other people who covet other people's game, are playing.

[Sonos]

I think it would be more accurate to say:

(a) If you have fun playing DDO while buying things in the store, good for you and go enjoy yourself!

(b) If you have fun by only using what you get in-game, good for you and go enjoy yourself!

(c) If you allow the method by which other people obtain their loot to ruin your fun, stop. Don't worry about what other people are or are not buying in the store, and go enjoy yourself!

Nutshell +1

[Cyr]

Re: being able to buy stuff is bad for the game

The person who is willing to drop some bills on the game, enjoys it for a few months, and then moves on is much more beneficial to the game than the purist who never spends a dime. All I'm hearing is a lot of sour grapes from those who can afford the time, but not the money, to grind out for items they want.

The equation is much more complex then that.

As in most things this is not a binary equation.

Clearly if +5 tomes and every piece of raid gear was in the store for one cent then it would not be beneficial to the game, but detremental as the entire gear based incentive structure in the game would be nonexistent and the revenue returns from that would be much much less then the increased loss of players due to people having no goals they cared about left much faster then normal.

The equation actually is all about selling 'goals' and the price of that 'goal' to the long term profits for Turbine that are lost from this lack of goals to accomplish per player.

Raid bypass timers I think are the crystal clear no brainer bad move situation here. They kill new content quicker and do so for any and all raids present and future.

+4 tomes are not as bad, because the price tag is much higher for the damage they cause to the 'goals' people keep playing the game to aquire (there is better out there then them where raid bypass nope you get the raid gear and you are set until the next raid).

[Sonos]

The equation is much more complex then that.

As in most things this is not a binary equation.

Clearly if +5 tomes and every piece of raid gear was in the store for one cent then it would not be beneficial to the game, but detremental as the entire gear based incentive structure in the game would be nonexistent and the revenue returns from that would be much much less then the increased loss of players due to people having no goals they cared about left much faster then normal.

The equation actually is all about selling 'goals' and the price of that 'goal' to the long term profits for Turbine that are lost from this lack of goals to accomplish per player.

Raid bypass timers I think are the crystal clear no brainer bad move situation here. They kill new content quicker and do so for any and all raids present and future.

+4 tomes are not as bad, because the price tag is much higher for the damage they cause to the 'goals' people keep playing the game to aquire (there is better out there then them where raid bypass nope you get the raid gear and you are set until the next raid).

I'm not sure on the raid bypass timer thing. If I get all my gear by my 10th run or I get it by my 10th run, how are the two that much different? Or is it because there is a lot of time to fart around with other things in between? Not being sarcastic, just haven't wrapped my mind around the problem of bypass timer yet.

[teh_meh]

Re: being able to buy stuff is bad for the game

The person who is willing to drop some bills on the game, enjoys it for a few months, and then moves on is much more beneficial to the game than the purist who never spends a dime. All I'm hearing is a lot of sour grapes from those who can afford the time, but not the money, to grind out for items they want.

No sour grapes at all. Don't care. Just don't want to hear anymore nonsense on the forums about how we're not a P2W game. We are.

We all play a P2W-friendly game, even if you don't partake in the practice.

[TheFantasticBard]

Well, I feel late to the party, late to the game. But I say the party doesnt start untill I arive.

With the addition to +4 tomes, will I buy them? I might.
With store SP pots, do I buy them. When they go on sale an I have points.
With Raid Bypass timers, do I use them? Of course, Haveing only 1 real toon, I love running raids with my friends, and sometimes im on timer for them.
With adventure packs, would I colectt them all? Yes, I love running all the content at my lesure.
With EXP pots, do I use them. Yup, I hate/love TRing, I love getting the PL and the grind up, I just hate every class thats not Bard >.<.

But does that make me a bad person becuase I pay to enjoy the content that I want to play? I would say no. I am probably one of the few people on Argo that runs a regular Titan Raid. Why? Well I think its the best raid in the game, and most definatly my favorite. Do I NEED anything from there? No, I run it becuase its fun. I am a causal player that oesnt mind spending money on TP to get things that make me laugh, or something that makes me unique, IE I always get Man with Ponytail/Bandana and Gianthold Purple Hairdye because I like the look and I think it makes me Unique(I am TheMinstrel BTW). But does that make me some dirty P2W? Again I would say no. Why? Well, everyone has vices, wether that be smoking or needing chocolate every now an then. This is mine. And you dont see me complaining about someone needing to go AFK in a quest becuase they need chocolate.

[sebastianosmith]

I win DDO every time I load the game to play with my family and friends. We are scattered far and wide. The paltry sum I pay each month is more than rewarded with being able to interact with those few I am lucky to see once a year, and priceless considering those with whom I haven't physically interacted in a over decade or never even personally met. What gear or abilities we have and how we obtain such is immaterial to our time spent together. Pay-to-Win? - Yes! For as long as the servers are up and we can all still operate a computer. Nothing else really matters.

[Clankex]

I just come here in spurts when I need to blow off some steam.

Although, probably, inadvertent, this one sentence explains so much.

[OrodelaSol]

will this never end? if u dont agree with buying from ddo store then dont. i wish they would buy more so ddo would make more money and hire more staff to fix bugs n such! those that grind out the gear and xp n tp know the true sense of accomplishment. thats good enough for me.

[jjflanigan]

Every MMO that charges anything to play is pay-to-win. You can't win if you don't play, you can't play if you don't pay, ergo you have to pay to win. :D

If people want to blow real world money to increase their in-game characters...why does it matter? I play the game to have fun, Joe and Jane Smith spending $300 to get some tomes or other items that I "earned" by playing a game doesn't make my time playing the game any less enjoyable.

I am sorry that it does impact other people's enjoyment of the game, though.

-JJ

[Dark_Helmet]

Every MMO that charges anything to play is pay-to-win. You can't win if you don't play, you can't play if you don't pay, ergo you have to pay to win. :D

If people want to blow real world money to increase their in-game characters...why does it matter? I play the game to have fun, Joe and Jane Smith spending $300 to get some tomes or other items that I "earned" by playing a game doesn't make my time playing the game any less enjoyable.

I am sorry that it does impact other people's enjoyment of the game, though.

-JJ

Sorry, but I believe Pay-to-Win is when someone can use money to get equipment that others "earn" by playing the game. I liked the past subscription model where time spent (and a lot of luck of course!) meant you earned your equipment.
Also, I liked the lack of a real-world market to buy items - which is what the DDOStore became. You don't just buy cosmetic items, you buy advantages (+4 to all stats? We got it for $50). Stacks of mana pots? No problem. I see people in PUGs just chugging pots as they blow their spell points to get those kills.

Then, these people complain about "how easy the game is" and the devs listen and make it harder - for the average user. Witness the "fixes" they made to limit power players - at the detriment of the casual player. I knew people who only played a couple of hours a week, finally get that awesome item and then - poof - it gets nerfed (disruptors anyone?)

Now, they have devs who don't know anything about D&D making a new game. So, those who can buy all the new equipment (and raid bypasses, etc) are fine and the casual players are left wondering why they still play...

[GermanicusMaximus]

Uh huh.

Content crisis was a great period for the game too.

One thing saved DDO and that was F2P. Those proclaiming something was serious wrong were right back then. Something was seriously wrong.

So wrong that Turbine was willing to gamble the entire property on F2P. It worked.

Thankfully someone at Turbine realized how bad things were and acted accordingly.

Well said.

The venture capitalists running Turbine thought so little of DDO's future that they converted it into the MMO equivalent of a lab rat to try to extract some remaining value from it. The fact that they stumbled upon an industry changing paradigm shift is treated as a "ho hum, we can just replicate that whenever we need to" event by far too many people on these forums.

The fact is that

1) paradigm shifts like that are rare
2) the people who were able to create that paradigm shift are long gone from Turbine

Instead, we now have a team best capable of a "paint by the numbers" level of creativity, who in the intervening years have managed absolutely no interesting innovations. A game saving innovation equivalent to micro transactions is no where in sight.

[Karavek]

Let's just declare it and put the pointless debate behind us. If I have a million TP and endless points cards to offer people, what are the things I can't buy or trade for now (that people at endgame actually use)?

+4/+5 upgrade tomes
CitW raid items and heroic comms
Bauble
Shards/Seals for less than 10 of the old epic items
Madstone boots (do melee even use these anymore?)
Shards of Power from the Shroud (again, getting really hard to justify a slot for GS at current end game now)
Litany
Kormor's Belt

That's it...I'm spent. With a list this short I don't see the point in arguing about it. So why are we?

I hate to tell you but your opinion of waht is Pay To Win is meaningless to all others, trying to declare the argument over and your view the valid one is a troll post at best.

[BOgre]

Let's just declare it and put the pointless debate behind us. If I have a million TP and endless points cards to offer people, what are the things I can't buy or trade for now (that people at endgame actually use)?

+4/+5 upgrade tomes
CitW raid items and heroic comms
Bauble
Shards/Seals for less than 10 of the old epic items
Madstone boots (do melee even use these anymore?)
Shards of Power from the Shroud (again, getting really hard to justify a slot for GS at current end game now)
Litany
Kormor's Belt

That's it...I'm spent. With a list this short I don't see the point in arguing about it. So why are we?

Ahhh. I figured it out. He's rich (or has dad's creditcard), and has just spent a wee fortune buying all that stuff, and now needs to let us kno how uber he and his wallet are. It was the 'I'm spent' that gave it away. He's subconsciously telling us 'He spent'. Just for giggles, I've noticed some other telling words/phrases in there, was considering highlighting them, but that might be crossing a line. look close, I'm sure you can figure out what his REAL problem is. ;)

[Missing_Minds]

The fact is that
There other fact is that it was obvious that the subscription model for MMOs wasn't going to cut it much longer, but many businesses were too stuck in 'what was' even if it wasn't good.

Seriously, very few people have the time to use that trial period to get a good handle and taste of the game to make an informed decision. Companies were dependent upon people buying them to make up the cost of development and pray that subscriptions could keep the server up and continue to trickle in cash flow. The MMO world changed in those many years.

Going to an endless trail period actually gave consumers a chance to make a good informed decision. It also worked for businesses as many consumers do not like re occurring fees. (I suspect this hate was brought about by banking and credit card monthly fees.) By removing that, the door was opened to let consumers think of it more like a burger or candy. Normally consumers are more than willing to blow a few bucks here and there on things they don't need. Why do you think stores have the odd thing here and there that seem so darn out of place? To catch the eye of the consumer to play upon their emotions to get them to buy it.

Paradim shifts are rare, but that is what happened because it was time. Also happening during this same point, the mobile game industry took off. In part for the same reason! Cheep digital candy! $2-$4 bucks for a game? That you can take with you? Costs less than a good quality burger? people are prone to buy such much more than shelling out $40-$80 for a new game.

[teh_meh]

Ahhh. I figured it out. He's rich (or has dad's creditcard), and has just spent a wee fortune buying all that stuff, and now needs to let us kno how uber he and his wallet are. It was the 'I'm spent' that gave it away. He's subconsciously telling us 'He spent'. Just for giggles, I've noticed some other telling words/phrases in there, was considering highlighting them, but that might be crossing a line. look close, I'm sure you can figure out what his REAL problem is. ;)

No man, honestly...I do okay but not rich. You're reading too much psychology into this. Definitely not your forte. Recommend pouring concrete or designing concrete-based household furnishings. Square things like tables, nothing complicated. Hulk smash stuff.

PS. Happy tome buying day

[ThePrisoner]

Let's just declare it and put the pointless debate behind us.

Hahaha. Thanks for declaring it and putting the pointless debate behind us.

[ThePrisoner]

I hope the other people in video game land don't use their money to purchase the hard-earned nothing real that you've accumulated.