older 20th reward lists.

[Niv-mizzet]

The 20th reward lists for older raids need to cough up every unique from the raid, instead of ~half of them or less.

As far as the description of "older," I mean things that have been up for a year or more. Y'know, the ones you never ever ever see LFM's for, and if you do, its one guy trying to start the raid has to wait 48281456 hours for anyone else to join. Abbot, Hound, VOD, Titan, and the like. It's bad enough trying to find or start groups for them, but doing it 20 times is fairly ridiculous, especially when you only earn a coin flip's chance of getting what you want after doing that immense amount of work.

I found it extremely disheartening to have a character looking for an older raid loot that was a very convenient fit NOT get it after 20 runs. I have since left that toon by the wayside, untouched since even before MOTU, because I remember all the time spent with an LFM up with just me in it. The current system being in place on older raids has convinced me to simply not play that toon. Now what if that was my only toon? Then the current system would just convince me to stop playing.

Some pieces of loot simply offer incomparable attributes, such as the madstone boots, seven fingered gloves, the litany, the torc, the abbot quiver, etc. So some builds may heavily desire that piece from a long-forgotten raid, and can't cover the same effect any other way, other than to throw up lfm's, NOT manage to play the content because no one joins for 5000 hours, NOT see any other lfm's for it, and even if they do get to play it, NOT get the item, even after 20 runs.

This is NOT FUN. This is the stuff that makes people unsub, stop buying TP, and stop logging into the game.

Many of the loots from these raids have been outclassed several times over, and only remain important for few people due to some specific abilities, so shouldn't it be time that they become the slightest bit easier to get? Not asking for "3 casual runs = handouts" here like some of the quests were made into. Simply asking that someone who's beaten an older, barely-touched-by-the-playerbase raid 20 times be rewarded appropriately.

Again, I would wish this to only apply to raids that aren't on the cutting edge of loot. People are running those anyway, so its much easier to scrape together 20 wins.

Here's hoping for a better tomorrow, by the devs making a smarter move today.

[redspecter23]

I agree that in many cases, the older raid loot isn't useful anymore. I disagree that making 20th lists complete would solve the problem, though it would be better than it is now. I want to see a system that rewards each run of the raid, rather than pushing all the incentive to the 20th run. Perhaps a 25% complete list every 5th run? Putting so much emphasis on 20th means that all runs leading up to that are just pure grind. The concept of the raid itself dropping loot you want becomes so minimal and your goal is 20 runs, not individual completions.

[Niv-mizzet]

That would also help. Anything to both breathe a little life into older raids and make it not quite as hellish for people trying to get "that one good piece from that old raid."

There are even more possible solutions, such as having:

-"raid of the month" where drop rates for uniques from that raid are substantially higher than normal.

-A guaranteed drop for each person beating the raid on elite bravery streak.

-A partially complete list sooner than every 20, as you mentioned.

-Some kind of exchange broker for x:1 turn ins.

-Just up their drop rates significantly for being old, barely run raids.

And I'm sure there are even more that people could drum up off the top of their heads, I merely suggested what seems to be the simplest, easiest change to make. I wouldn't be against a lot of the other ideas going in instead. ANY of them would help. (well I'm kind of leery of the turn ins one, but...) Its just plain to see that 20th lists used to work when the raids were run and they made up a larger percentage of the available content, but now those raids AREN'T run and they don't make up nearly as much of the available content. They need a crutch to lean on if they're supposed to continue generating say, sales out of the DDO store for their adventure pack.

[shadereaper33]

I agree that in many cases, the older raid loot isn't useful anymore. I disagree that making 20th lists complete would solve the problem, though it would be better than it is now. I want to see a system that rewards each run of the raid, rather than pushing all the incentive to the 20th run. Perhaps a 25% complete list every 5th run? Putting so much emphasis on 20th means that all runs leading up to that are just pure grind. The concept of the raid itself dropping loot you want becomes so minimal and your goal is 20 runs, not individual completions.

Smaller reward lists at smaller completion numbers would certainly improve the chance of getting raid loot. I was also thinking about a small chance (maybe 5-10%) for 1 piece of raid loot at random to show up in the reward list following each completion, sort of a bonus extra chance at a piece of loot. Just a thought.

[CaptainSpacePony]

I was also thinking about a small chance (maybe 5-10%) for 1 piece of raid loot at random to show up in the reward list following each completion, sort of a bonus extra chance at a piece of loot. Just a thought.

I've thought of this before and it sounds neat at first, but then I realize--that's what the raid loot chest is for. The 20th end is just an outlet valve to help offset all the misses.

[Vellrad]

Idea/suggestion:

Eeach completion of raid awards BTC raid tokens. The harder and rarer the raid is, the more tokens it gives.
Abbot: 1d8
Hound, Titan, VoD, LoB, MA: 1d6
Reaver, ToD, Zawabi: 1d4
Shroud: 1d2-1 (that's 0 or 1)
Tempest spine: 0 (always)
+1d2-1 on hard, +1d2 on elite.

After you completed given raid once (except shroud and tempest spine) you unlock raid vendor.
He exchanges 6 BTC raid tokens to 1d2 BTA tokens, and sells all raid loot from given raid (except tomes) for a set price (vary from item to item). Shroud mats and tomes are not included.

Is it perfect? No. But its better than current 'waste year doing raid 100 times and be as close as before you started'.

[Niv-mizzet]

Is it perfect? No. But its better than current 'waste year doing raid 100 times and be as close as before you started'.

Fully agreed. Almost any of the possible ideas are better than the current status quo. It's a real head-scratcher why no one dev-side has bothered to steal one of the several decent ideas and get some credit for putting it in.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Idea/suggestion:

Eeach completion of raid awards BTC raid tokens. The harder and rarer the raid is, the more tokens it gives.
Abbot: 1d8
Hound, Titan, VoD, LoB, MA: 1d6
Reaver, ToD, Zawabi: 1d4
Shroud: 1d2-1 (that's 0 or 1)
Tempest spine: 0 (always)
+1d2-1 on hard, +1d2 on elite.

After you completed given raid once (except shroud and tempest spine) you unlock raid vendor.
He exchanges 6 BTC raid tokens to 1d2 BTA tokens, and sells all raid loot from given raid (except tomes) for a set price (vary from item to item). Shroud mats and tomes are not included.

Is it perfect? No. But its better than current 'waste year doing raid 100 times and be as close as before you started'.

A very good idea and a +1 to you for that.

However, it will greatly decrease Turbines revenue from the raid timer bypasses, so very unlikely to be implemented... :(

[nibel]

Idea/suggestion:

Eeach completion of raid awards BTC raid tokens. The harder and rarer the raid is, the more tokens it gives.
Abbot: 1d8
Hound, Titan, VoD, LoB, MA: 1d6
Reaver, ToD, Zawabi: 1d4
Shroud: 1d2-1 (that's 0 or 1)
Tempest spine: 0 (always)
+1d2-1 on hard, +1d2 on elite.

After you completed given raid once (except shroud and tempest spine) you unlock raid vendor.
He exchanges 6 BTC raid tokens to 1d2 BTA tokens, and sells all raid loot from given raid (except tomes) for a set price (vary from item to item). Shroud mats and tomes are not included.

Is it perfect? No. But its better than current 'waste year doing raid 100 times and be as close as before you started'.

I'll tell you why that will never work: People that want Abbot loot will do one completion, and then farm easier raids for the tokens to trade. The number of Abbots LFM will drop abismally, because its easier to farm tokens on other raids than do abbot. And with raid bypasses, while waiting for the LFM to fill you could complete, lets say, VoN 2 or 3 times.

Awarding substantially more shards to abbot/titan will not solve the issue. People will just learn how to run it better, and they become the new all-run raids.

What I would do if I was in charge of this stuff:

Freshly released raids: 20th completion awards a special reward list with 50% of raid loot. Normal chance for tomes.
1-year old raids: 20th completion awards a special reward list with all raid loot, and a good chance for tomes (maybe 30%~50%)
2-years old raids: 10th completion awards a special reward list with all raid loot. No tomes. If you want tomes, run the new raids.
4-years old raids: 5th completions awards a special reward with all raid loot. No tomes.
Epic raids (any): Any epic completion of a raid that is non-epic at origin (VoN and DQ) adds 1d2 random shards as end reward. Shards stop being rolled on the epic chest. The 20th-10th-5th completion lists of those raids also awards 2d2+2 random shards.