Damage oriented Paladin

[Ivanbin]

I am coming back to the game after a veeeery long leave, having forgotten most everything. I am here hoping someone could tell me (in newby speak ;-) ) how to roll a Damage Paladin. I do not mind multi-classing. I dont care what race. I am also open to any other suggestions. I am just looking for a class that could do some good damage (while being somewhat durable) or (maybe) a class that will be popular in a group (aka useful).
Please help me out here. I believe when I played before, I payed monthly fee, so I will not have too much unlocked (I think i have Warforged unlocked and thats it). Therefore I might not be able to do some builds that require premium stuff.

Thanks for any help ;-)

[sebastianosmith]

Howdy and welcome back!

Take a look at Junts' Paladin Guide (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542); extremely detailed and helpful. There are several examples of DPS builds in the Sample Builds (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2611611&postcount=7) section.

Best of luck!

[unbongwah]

The bad news is pallies still lag behind other melee classes in terms of DPS; the good news is the Epic Destinies really help close the DPS gap once you make it to epic lvls. I've seen a few interesting pure pallies focused on DPS using Shadowdancer or FotW. That said, I still think pallies make better tanks than DPS builds.

[Ivanbin]

Since im a noob, to get that shadowdancer thing, I need to make a rouge (or one of other 2 classes) and level to a certain level and then rebirth?
Can some 1 summarize it really quickly for me?

P.S. Is it just me or do the forums fail to load 3/4 times >_<.

Edit: If any 1 could, I'd love to be able to get on some random messaging program (or meet in game) so i can ask some questions for like 15 minutes ;-)

[Stormraiser]

Here are some suggestions:

2 Paladin 18 Sorc
2 Monk 6 Paladin 12 Fighter
2 Rogue 6 Paladin 12 Fighter
2 Paladin 18 FVS
8 Druid 6 Paladin 6 Fighter
2 Rogue 18 Paladin

They are in order of DPS, from highest, to lowest

[Stormraiser]

) so i can ask some questions for like 15 minutes ;-)


Stormraiser in Khyber

[Ivanbin]

I did like what ubon said about pure paladins and high damage. And the Shadowdancer and such sounds interesting. I just do not know how to work it :-(

[Ivanbin]

Stormraiser in Khyber

Says you are offline >_<

[Battlehawke]

Probably the most DPS out of a Paladin right now is to make a Paladin with an 18 Str and then spread the rest between Cha and Con. Everythinging else is a Dump Stat (it doesn't matter) (you will eventually have to get a Wis based item to cast your spells). I'm not sure which race you want, but I would probably go Dwarf or Human. With Dwarf I would roll with 18 Str, 16 Con, 12 Cha.

For Feats: 1)Toughness 3)Power Attack 6)THF 9)Improved Crit: Slashing 12)lImproved THF 15)Greater THF 18)Cleave 21)Supreme Cleave 24) Overwhelming Critical.

Put all Level ups into Str and train skills for Balance and UMD.

You will eventually want the Fury Epic Destiny as you will be a THF killing beast!! You can twist in Endless Lay on Hands and Endless Smites for some added Awesomeness as well as a few other bonus
Twists for some personal flair.

The DPS at low levels will be good and a lot of fun. You will be outgunned from 14ish to 20 by almost everyone. Your DPs will be OK at 21 but once you get past the Sentinel ED and whatever path you take to get to Fury, you will love life at that point. As many have said though, while room will be OK, others will outperform you until you get to Fury!

[Ivanbin]

Probably the most DPS out of a Paladin right now is to make a Paladin with an 18 Str and then spread the rest between Cha and Con. Everythinging else is a Dump State. 12 in each is the absolute minimum. 14 is good. Anything higher is awesome. However stick with the 18 str. If you are desperate or stuck with a 28 point build you could go as low as 16 and still have decent DPS.

For Feats: 1)Toughness 3)Power Attack 6)THF 9)Improved Crit: Slashing 12)lImproved THF 15)Greater THF 18)Cleave 21)Supreme Cleave 24) Overwhelming Critical.

Put all Level ups into Str and train skills for Balance and UMD.

You will eventually want the Fury ED as you will be a THF killing beast!! You can twist in Endless Lay on Hands and Endless Smites for some added Awesomeness as well as a few other bonus
Twists for some personal flair.

The DPS at low levels will be good and a lot of fun. You will be outgunned from 14ish to 20 by almost everyone. Your DPs will be OK at 21 but once you get past the Sentinel ED and whatever path you take to get to Fury, you will love life at that point. As many have said though, while room will be OK, others will outperform you until you get to Fury!

Any way we can chat in real time? Because of all you said I only understood about 1/2 and would love to ask some questions

[unbongwah]

Since im a noob, to get that shadowdancer thing, I need to make a rouge (or one of other 2 classes) and level to a certain level and then rebirth?
You can read more about EDs on the wiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies), but as a pure(ish) pally, you can work your way thru the Destiny Spheres to go Exalted Angel -> GMoF -> Shadowdancer. Time-consuming, but probably no worse than TRing.

Have a look at Arlathen's Angel of Death (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=396525) thread.

8 Druid 6 Paladin 6 Fighter
Not possible due to alignment restrictions.

[Battlehawke]

Ivanbin, unfortunately my wife wants to go out tonight and I'm not all that available. I will be on one of the toons in my signature tomorrow night from 9-12 eastern on gallahanda server if you want to chat, send me a tell.

[Ivanbin]

You can read more about EDs on the wiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies), but as a pure(ish) pally, you can work your way thru the Destiny Spheres to go Exalted Angel -> GMoF -> Shadowdancer. Time-consuming, but probably no worse than TRing.

Have a look at Arlathen's Angel of Death (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=396525) thread.

Not possible due to alignment restrictions.

So playing as a pure paladin, ill be able to eventually get to any ED, but it will make me go through other ones on the way to unlocking the one i need?

Also, how long (play time) would it take to level to 20 (and start working on the ED)

P.S. Any servers recommended for starting players?

[Kinerd]

It takes 1.9m exp to cap. If you gain 1000 xp per real minute, it will therefore take you 32 hours to cap, or about a month at an hour a day. I estimate it will take you between one and ten months.

For you I recommend this build:

Human Paladin (28 points)

Stats
14 Str
15 Dex
14 Con
10 Wis
14 Cha

You eventually need +2 to base Dex. You can accomplish this with a +2 tome, a +1 tome and one level-up, or two level-ups. I advise you to go with the middle strategy and put every remaining level-up in Strength. If you do someday pull a +2 Dex tome, all the better.

Feats
Two Weapon Fighting & Toughness
Power Attack
Maximize
Improved TWF
Greater TWF
Improved Critical: Slash (for scimitars, you could also go IC: Pierce for rapiers but they look funny on a paladin)
Open slot

Note: you can take ITWF as early as 6 if you do the 1+1 version or as late as 12 if you don't have the Dex until then.

Enhancements
Divine Sacrifice 1 and Human Versatility 1 are absolute musts. Your paladin will never get a better return on investment for 2 AP. Human Improved Recovery is very good, as is Exalted Smite 1, and Extra Lay on Hands is a no brainer. I really like Devotion 2 both for pumping your self-heals and for unlocking Redemption, which is very useful on a low resource character.

Your big question mark is your Prestige Enhancement.
-Hunter of the Dead gives you basically nothing DPS-wise, but is excellent for survivability, especially on a low resource character.
-Knight of the Chalice gives a decent DPS bump but only against a specific set of monsters. This set is relatively popular at endgame but is by no means ubiquitous, and is intermittent throughout the game.
-Defender of Siberys gives a smaller DPS bump and a bit of toughness but carries a large threat increase and slower movement speed. For a new character the threat increase isn't a big deal, you're not going to be in situations where aggro management is important until you have enough experience to handle it anyway. The slower movement speed is annoying, though. Additionally, Defender of Siberys requires a feat, and you're pretty tight on feats.
I would go with HotD or maybe KotC, but stay away from DoS.

[Stormraiser]

It takes 1.9m exp to cap. If you gain 1000 xp per real minute, it will therefore take you 32 hours to cap, or about a month at an hour a day. I estimate it will take you between one and ten months.

For you I recommend this build:

Human Paladin (28 points)

Stats
14 Str
15 Dex
14 Con
10 Wis
14 Cha

You eventually need +2 to base Dex. You can accomplish this with a +2 tome, a +1 tome and one level-up, or two level-ups. I advise you to go with the middle strategy and put every remaining level-up in Strength. If you do someday pull a +2 Dex tome, all the better.

Feats
Two Weapon Fighting & Toughness
Power Attack
Maximize
Improved TWF
Greater TWF
Improved Critical: Slash (for scimitars, you could also go IC: Pierce for rapiers but they look funny on a paladin)
Open slot

Note: you can take ITWF as early as 6 if you do the 1+1 version or as late as 12 if you don't have the Dex until then.

Enhancements
Divine Sacrifice 1 and Human Versatility 1 are absolute musts. Your paladin will never get a better return on investment for 2 AP. Human Improved Recovery is very good, as is Exalted Smite 1, and Extra Lay on Hands is a no brainer. I really like Devotion 2 both for pumping your self-heals and for unlocking Redemption, which is very useful on a low resource character.

Your big question mark is your Prestige Enhancement.
-Hunter of the Dead gives you basically nothing DPS-wise, but is excellent for survivability, especially on a low resource character.
-Knight of the Chalice gives a decent DPS bump but only against a specific set of monsters. This set is relatively popular at endgame but is by no means ubiquitous, and is intermittent throughout the game.
-Defender of Siberys gives a smaller DPS bump and a bit of toughness but carries a large threat increase and slower movement speed. For a new character the threat increase isn't a big deal, you're not going to be in situations where aggro management is important until you have enough experience to handle it anyway. The slower movement speed is annoying, though. Additionally, Defender of Siberys requires a feat, and you're pretty tight on feats.
I would go with HotD or maybe KotC, but stay away from DoS.

A 28 point new paladin is much harder to make with 2WF then 2handed fighting. I'd strongly suggest you go one of the following 2 paths:
A) 2 handed, you can lower dex and will have more points for the build. The endgame worth of KotC is much much lower then what it used to be, I'd still lean toward DoS even at the cost of a feat. Start with 8 Wisdom, 8 Int and 8 Dex , 16 Str, 14 con and 16 charisma. Swap for Cleave feats.
B) Sword and board. Same setup as before except this time DoS will shine. Swap for shield feats.

[Kinerd]

A 28 point new paladin is much harder to make with 2WF then 2handed fighting. I'd strongly suggest you go one of the following 2 paths:
A) 2 handed, you can lower dex and will have more points for the build. The endgame worth of KotC is much much lower then what it used to be, I'd still lean toward DoS even at the cost of a feat. Start with 8 Wisdom, 8 Int and 8 Dex , 16 Str, 14 con and 16 charisma. Swap for Cleave feats.
B) Sword and board. Same setup as before except this time DoS will shine. Swap for shield feats.It's true that not spending on Dex gets you more build points, but look at what you really gained with this stat swap: 1 Strength bonus and 1 Charisma bonus. Is that really so incredible? You net 1 damage, 1 fort save, and the ability to take a higher tier of Divine Might (which is of arguable worth anyway), you lose 2 reflex save, and that's not even going into how superior a fighting style TWF is, especially for paladins.

[boredman]

Im agreed with twf style as better dps option for new paladins that dont have much resources. you can start with a pure lvl 20 paladin that uses slash weapons.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Paladin)

Starting Ending
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 20
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 12 12

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR




with this, you only need a +1 dex tome to get before lvl 12 for itwf dex prereq (if you have a +2 dex tome you can expend all the raise ability points on strengh). Then, you will have time to get the other tomes. Also you can get scimitars, longswords or battleaxes at the ah depending on what you see available if dont have weapons when leveling. Make sure to get the enhancements for hunter of the undead prestige for low levels and then switch to knight of the chalice enhancements for high levels. You may want Defender of siberys prestige available too cause it gives a lot of hitpoints, but that requires an extra feature (like shield mastery), so can drop cleave or great cleave to get that if want to have that prestige available. As for epic destinys you probably will have to start with Unyielding Sentinel and then, when capped xp, can level other destinys like Fotw or shadowdancer or legendary dreadnought to if want some more dps, but Unyielding Sentinel has many good advantages on hitpoints and survivality to cover your lack of gear at the begining. Finally, for epic features you can get Overwhelming critical (requires cleave, greatcleave and base str of 23 (tomes included), and another feature that can be shield mastery (for Defender prestige) if doesnt have that yet

[unbongwah]

I would not attempt a TWF pally on a 28-pt build; hold out until you unlock either drow or 32-pt builds. You can make a pretty decent THF pally, though.

[Ivanbin]

I actually got my old account which had 32 point build unlocked somehow, and im wondering, what do i spend my Skill points on?
And im hopefully looking for maybe a GS paladin.

Edit: Trying to follow the death angel build, but it is written for people who have been playing for a long time.Is there any way some 1 could be so kind as to write it out like boredman did? So i know exactly where to spend all my AP and SP and what traits to take

[AidanRyuko]

I read you already decided on a build to follow but do want to throw in my two cents. I'm on my 10th melee life and also doing a paladin at the moment after DPS lives on all other ones, so I had the same goal as you do now.

I basicly chose for a pal 18/mnk 2 build because of a passive bonus monks get to AC and evasion when wearing light armor to help me with the defensive side.

Important parts of the build I use are:
get high charisma, paladins have a feat that boost all your saving throws based on your charisma modifier.
get cleave + greater cleave, I am not sure why people add this feat at high levels, because it is most useful at lower levels when stuff still dies in 1-3 hits and faster with crits. it will close the gap in dps compared to other melee classes quite a bit and I suggest at least taking improved critical: slashing so you have a better chance at dealing a critical hit.

I'll give you one good excuse to use the above feats: The bloody cleaver

The bloody cleaver is a two handed weapon that has a 30% chance to give you +15 max hp (with imp. crit feat), this greatly reduces your need for potions or heals and with cleave and greater cleave you can hit 3x in a row within the second, so the chance of getting +15hp on first contact with a monster is pretty high. Even if the rest of your gear is below average and you messed up your stats this tactic should be newbie-proof. As for skills there are likely different opinions, Jump is underrated but it will help a lot to get 26 jump. Balance is also important because it influences how fast you get up after you get knocked down. The rest is really optional, a lot of people like to go with UMD for scroll usage or with intimidate or bluff.

[Rogann]

I would never roll a Paladin to do damage. Paladins can't dps. I would roll a barb or fighter.

[scottmike0]

I would never roll a Paladin to do damage. Paladins can't dps. I would roll a barb or fighter.

but when your cheap and don't want to use potions..... paladin is the best offer :3

[unbongwah]

Edit: Trying to follow the death angel build, but it is written for people who have been playing for a long time.Is there any way some 1 could be so kind as to write it out like boredman did? So i know exactly where to spend all my AP and SP and what traits to take
Here's a quick conversion:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Elf Female
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 322
Spell Points: 300
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 15
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 21
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 15 20

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 9
Bluff 2 5
Concentration 2 3
Diplomacy 2 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 5
Heal -1 0
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 6 28
Jump 2 5
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 1
Spot -1 0
Swim 2 5
Tumble 3 4
Use Magic Device 3 16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Precision


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante I
Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV


Epic feats: Power Atk + 1 more (Arlathen took Quicken, but I'd be tempted to take Imp Sunder instead)

I deviated a bit from Arlathen's build, by delaying khopesh until lvl 18; the idea is to use scimitars while leveling then switch to khops later on. I also took Precision before Power Atk, on the theory that the to-hit bonus + -25% fortification will be more useful early on, to make up for the low-ish base STR & TWF to-hit penalty.

[Kinerd]

I would never roll a Paladin to do damage. Paladins can't dps. I would roll a barb or fighter.The OP wants damage and being somewhat durable. Paladins do 90% of barb DPS, barbs have 0% of a paladin's sturdiness. It's no contest.

[nayozz]

why people keep saying a paladin has low dps ?

i do not see much difference between paladin, ranger, fighter, barbarian... really

all i can say is: a rogue adds about 50 sneak attack damage on each hit (even grazing) and a radiance rapier with improved critical gained at lvl 12 can enable a "permanent" sneak attack on 50% chance each time you hit.

now...
ranger has favored enemy
paladin has smite attacks
barbarian has rage
and fighter i guess has action boosts...

can't see a difference O_o

i plan to tr into paladin some day, hope to not get hit in the face -.-'
still i can't see why all say paladin low dps, never tried one...

[Battlehawke]

I just want to stress again, if you want a DPS pally then you should build a 20 Pally with Str 18, Con 14, Cha 14. You can dump all the other stats, they don't matter. If you have 32, 34, or 36 point build put the rest into Con and Cha (Cha helps your DPS and Survivability, and ultimately in DDO, so does Con) for feats 1) toughness, 3) THF, 6) Power Attack 9) Improved THF 12) Improved Crit, Slashing 15) Greater THF 18) Cleave 21) Great Cleave 24) Overwhelming Critical.

Max out Unyielding Sentinel for Epic Destiny then get to the Fury destiny as soon as possible. For Twists, take endless smites and endless lay on hands. For the other Twists throw in some stuff from Dreadnaught and you will find your melee DPS very comparable to a Barbarian if not better insome situations (if you are dead your DPS is zero, Pallies live longer).

If you want some defence on this build you just take two levels of fighter and bam! You can grab Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery. If you want more go human and grab Bastion for the final feat.
Ultimately the dual one will provide more options for you in end game. You can swap out your ED's to Sentinal when playing a tank and to Fury when neededing DPS.

For Skills max Intimidate if going with the dual defense and offense build, if just offense then Balance is your friend.

For Weapons use the Falchion. With the better crit range it will be more DPS with the Fury and Smite enhancements.

For enhancements: Max out Exalted Smites and Extra Smites, then anything else that will help your survivability or DPS (I.e., lay on hands).

For PRE: the extra HP's from Defender of Siberious are really what you want. The healing amp from Hunter of the Undead is nice and the extra damage to outsiders is nice from Knight of the Chalice, but in the end, you want the HP from Defender. It should put you over 1000 hp.

This is an easy build that will pay off for you and is easy to outfit. The hardest part will be getting to the Fury Ed and that's not that hard.

The TWF build that Kinerd suugests is a nice build too. However the DPS on this build is sopping much fun.

[Ape_Man]

Damage oriented Paladin?

What's the punchline? :)

[Lonnbeimnech]

I would never roll a Paladin to do damage. Paladins can't dps. I would roll a barb or fighter.
Agreed.

And on that note, if you want a dps toon with a pally icon, the best thing to do is take the least amount of pally levels possible while keeping the icon.

Something like 7 pally 7 monk 6 fighter. or 7 pally 7 rogue 6 fighter, or 7 pally 7 rogue 6 monk

[Lonnbeimnech]

why people keep saying a paladin has low dps ?

i do not see much difference between paladin, ranger, fighter, barbarian... really

all i can say is: a rogue adds about 50 sneak attack damage on each hit (even grazing) and a radiance rapier with improved critical gained at lvl 12 can enable a "permanent" sneak attack on 50% chance each time you hit.

now...
ranger has favored enemy
paladin has smite attacks
barbarian has rage
and fighter i guess has action boosts...

can't see a difference O_o

i plan to tr into paladin some day, hope to not get hit in the face -.-'
still i can't see why all say paladin low dps, never tried one...

The smites add a rather insignificant amount of damage, unless you crit, then you hit big. But even at that, your overall dps is low because the smites are on a timer, and you have a limited amount of them (yes they regen) while a barb hits like a paladins smite with every swing, and a fighter has bonus feats for things like weapon specialization and enhancements to weapon damage and strength, power surge and haste boost and stacking 10% doublestrike as a capstone.

To get an idea of what a paladin's dps is like, if you have a fighter, reset your enhancements, don't re-fill them.

If you have a barbarian, take your strength item off, dont rage, frenzy or supreme cleave.

It's quite bad.

[Ape_Man]

It's quite bad.

This.

I have a toon who in various lives has been a fighter, rogue, ranger, and paladin and pally was by far the most terrible.

Building a pally to DPS is like trying to teach your dog how to quack.

Pallys make terrific tanks, but at this time they are lacking in offense. Maybe the ENH pass will fix this.

[Kinerd]

OP, you'll see basically two camps. People who know paladins are terrible DPS because they've played them, and people who know paladins are slightly worse DPS because they did the math. The track record of anecdotal experience in scientific matters is not good.

[MattiG]

I haven't done the math, but would add a third camp: those who have played them (both before and after U14) AND know they're good but not top DPS.

Before U14, the best pali was indeed the one with as few pali levels as possible, though there were a few good l20 KOTC's with silver-slotted dual CB's and lorinthors set that did good damage on Harry, Suulo, and Horoth. Even then, I think most of us can agree that pali's sucked pre U14.

Unfortunately, that suckage has engendered a massive anti-pali bias among a decent portion of the player base.

There are a few ongoing issues as well...

1. Piano playing...
In other words, there are a lot of buttons to press, and frequently! Apart from the standard issue cleave, great cleave, momentum swing (because if you're not in LD, it's twisted in) improved sunder rotation, you're adding divine sacrifice and occasionally smites into the mix, just for attacks. But the intermittent buffing is quite tedious as well. I don't fancy wasting a feat on extend when I'm going to be recasting Divine Might every minute anyway. At endgame, I'll just hit my DPS spells every other time I hit DM3. Additionally, since you're a pali, you craft cha-skills, slot good luck, UMD+3, and can fairly easily hit 40UMD, provided you took enough CHA to hit DM3 or 4, so you might as well use Tenser's scrolls. Much like DM3, these are almost not worth it during the heat of battle (the DPS loss to stop and use it feels like it might not be recouped vs simply continuing to attack), but it is indeed worth it. Still... Some players don't want all the piano playing.

2. Sensitive to set-up and ED synergies....
If someone didn't tell you or you didn't take time to test it, you might not have realized that all of Fury of the Wild works with Pali as long as you're not in stance. That means that the base damage bonus and crit multiplier bonus from Exalted Smites is multiplied by 400% and guaranteed to crit a zero fort mob as long as you don't roll a 1. On my toon, that's 3900-4500 depending on boosts/buffs, and in some raid groups, it's around 5000, and nearly 8000 on stunned/held mobs. However, this add's yet more piano-playing requirements and isn't always as second nature. This also requires a sacrifice of Lay on Hands charges to maximise DPS output via Divine Sacs and Exalted enhancements (for most builds). Sure, you could sacrifice other enhancement points, but I personally cannot/would not.

3. Missing some PrE benefit...
KOTC is sorta questionable unless you wanna kill all Evil Outsiders all the time, and that's not the current state of end-game. HoTD is potentially compelling but less versatile than DoS. But DoS now moves to "toggle mode" if you really want to out-DPS other toons in Fury. There's a psychological barrier to this for me, as it feels (initially) like you're leaving something on the table if you don't even have stance turned on. Truth be told, there really isn't much DPS benefit to the PrE itself. But if you think about it as a support feature, it's easier to reconcile. I use stance when the defense is important. Conveniently, Fury Eternal adds charges while in stance, and once they're up enough, I'll drop stance, unload em as fast as I can (always with Smites when available, momentum swings/divine sacs if not). Same story for unbridled fury. Then hit a primal scream, back into stance, and away ya go.. +9 STR and everything...

A few final thoughts...

- It's hard to build for Divine Might 4. Feats are tight on a pure pali, and the benefits are limited mainly to weapons of good and some extra smite damage (an inconsequential amount vs, say, 15 pali). Additionally, I like evasion and heal amp, so monk 3, fighter 2 is a 3-way match made in heaven. 15 pali gets you divine might 3 (+6 damage) and 2x lvl 4 spell slots (1 goes to Zeal, presumably for 10% stacking double strike and the other to CSW or Deathward. I just carry 3x DW goggles and take CSW as it hits close to 200hp without metas).

- If I'm in fury, Haste Boost 30% will always be twisted, along with Momentum Swing. This isn't pali specific, but just good DPS etiquette if you're in Fury.

- If Haste boost is active, so is human damage boost 25%. This alone brings an insane amount of DPS to the table. Human is an extra feat as well over Horc (presumably the "other" DPS choice, but not much of a choice outside situations where you plan on being out of boosts for more than half the time).

All of the above doesn't even touch on Kinerd's good point that survivability is a big part of DPS, but when it comes to Pali's, the survivability is a foregone conclusion, so I'll leave it there.

[Battlehawke]

Well said Mattig. +1

[Such755]

I just TRed a 2monk\18 paladin, it was pretty good. TWF with khopesh, 900 HP at level 20 with no levels of epic destiny (level 0 unyielding sentinel for extra 50 HP), saves are 55\48\45 or so, DPS was very solid (700 dmg on a critical smite or so, more on a held mob)
# I would do any paladin with 28 point, at least 32 if not 34.
# That said, definitely not TWF, just not enough ability scores to make him good enough.
# Don't bother with S&B - It takes a LOT Of gear and a lot of experience and game understanding to make a -=REAL=- tank. Not every stalwart defender \ defender of siberys is a tank.
# That said, DO go defender of siberys because it will overall give better DPS due to +6 str, and better survivabilty due to +6 con and 20% more HP and physical resist.
# Two handed fighter feats and ability: 16 con, 16 charisma and the rest in str (can lower con to 14 if you're confident, put the rest into str).
+2 charisma tome is a must for divine might III which is a huge source of DPS
Feats will be:
Toughness
THF x3
Improved crit: slash
And one for the defender of siberys. The rest is up to you (Cleave + great cleave to qualify for overwhelming crits?)
Max balance
2 levels of monk ASAP for evasion (And full ranks of balance I think)
# Rely on your spells for DPS: Zeal, divine might, etc...
# Extra smite evil IV and exalted smite III are great, use smite a lot. Also divine sacrifice II maybe even III

Gear to take notice:
+6 str \ con \ charisma \ dex \ wisdom are very important for DPS\hp\saves and smite evil damage
+5 resistance for saves
Greater false life for HP
Heavy fortification To be immune to crits
Toughness for more HP
Those are the base stats of course, end game paladin will be covered with epic gear that has those things, exceptional and insightful stats as well.

As for weapon I'd probably go with the highest crit range out there because your smite evil and divine sacrifice will dramatically increase your crits, so falshion it is.

I strongly suggest you level up a barbarian or fighter real quick to 20 and TR him, you'll have a much better experience as a 34 build paladin, and the ability to make a propper TWF paladin which is superior to THF paladin.

[boredman]

Im agree with all such755 said, except the part that twf is not enough on a 28 or 32 pt build. Actually, since is a first life paladin, generally, they probably dont have much resources to raise a lot his str or get a lot of gear to boost his damage, his best dps ally at higher levels will be the magical effects of his weapons (greater banes, banishing, smiting, disruption, coruscacing of greater good, etc), where twf line is clearly better than thf.

I understand the problems that Paladins had in the past (pre U14) with to-hit on epics, and with twf that was even worse, but now is not a main problem (anyway a first life paladin will be playing epics casual, normal and hard mostly while they get better gear and stats or trs for epic elite).

Also, i see that many new paladins and players are following guides that are not updated, but its very simple to update, Defender of siberys stance will be the best for new players that lack on hitpoints, ac, prr, strengh and constitution gear, and the new dps feature (overwhelming critical) requires to have cleave and great cleave (also useful for aoe damage and for ld and fotw destinies). If dont have monk class available can go pure paladin to get the capstone and automatic dr good bypass, so can easily get weapons at the ah or a pair of oathblades for most of the enemies.

[Battlehawke]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

2HF Pally
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter / 18 Paladin)
Hit Points: 442 base +
Spell Points: 230

BAB: 24/24/29/3030
Fortitude: 37
Reflex: 21
Will: 26

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 28 + 8 Item = 36
Dexterity 8 10
Constitution 16 18 +8 item = 24
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 8 10 +8 item = 18
Charisma 14 18 +8 item = 26

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 4
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 12
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 12
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 12
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 12
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 12
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 18
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 1 9.5
Bluff 2 4
Concentration 3 10
Diplomacy 2 4
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 4
Heal -1 0
Hide -1 0
Intimidate 2 30
Jump 4 9
Listen -1 0
Move Silently -1 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 0
Search -1 0
Spot -1 0
Swim 4 9
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 4 13.5

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I

Level 2 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I

Level 4 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II

Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I

Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II

Level 8 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II

Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II

Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I

Level 11 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty

Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III

Level 13 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II

Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I

Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II

Level 16 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV

Level 17 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III

Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III

Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III

Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I

[Arlathen]

Play-style, Player Skills and Character Build > Gear & Class Deficiencies.

.

Same comments from the 'Ranger Hate' thread apply equally to the underestimated Paladin thread.

As the person who created the Angel of Death (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4760971) theorybuild, and really enjoys playing this Pure Paladin as an outright 2WF DPS character, he's one of the best characters in my stable.

Offense, Defense, Versatility, Self-Sufficiency - it's the complete package.

[MattiG]

I've seen several mentions of twf now, and I would wholeheartedly disagree. Twf should be avoided like the plague and especially on palis. Even with one of the epic greataxes, properly feated and ED'd THF is so superior to twf that it makes me sad for all the khopeshes I have rotting in my tr cache.

Several of you who have mentioned TWF have given very solid advice, but to suggest that twf is anything a pali should strive for, makes me wonder if we're playing the same game.

No one that has ED'd wild weapons and momentum swing will argue with this (assuming they did so in a toon with thf feats and both cleaves). Once you get into Fury, a big nasty THF weapon for those exalted smite adrenalines (because of the innate power attack advantage and larger base dice) makes the consideration of anything else completely moot.

not that i'm not open to being surprised by some game mechanic that has somehow escaped my notice, but before any twf proponent disagrees with this, i'd urge you to explore the combination of ED/feats described above before you get too sure. Keep in mind that I love twf and have GS khopeshes on two toons. I personally didn't want THF to be better DPS, but alas.

[Arlathen]

<snip>

Several of you who have mentioned TWF have given very solid advice, but to suggest that twf is anything a pali should strive for, makes me wonder if we're playing the same game.

<snip>

not that i'm not open to being surprised by some game mechanic that has somehow escaped my notice, but before any twf proponent disagrees with this, i'd urge you to explore the combination of ED/feats described above before you get too sure. Keep in mind that I love twf and have GS khopeshes on two toons. I personally didn't want THF to be better DPS, but alas.

This is purely anecdotal from my point of view as someone who hasn't run a Fury specced character yet, and I have no numbers to present, but surely:

Divine Favour applies x2 when TWF
Divine Might applies x2 when TWF
Exalted Smites hits twice while TWF
Divine Sacrifice hits twice while TWF

And as far as i know, an Adrenaline-pumped attack effects both Main and Offhand attacks while TWF?

[goodspeed]

ya twf is gone, well except on wraps. And holy hell, I did not know my ranger qas hitting like a barb. Sweet jesus he's insane!

All that pot must be blurring my vision as I miss those couple thousand dmg cleaves everywhere lol.

I mean come on, I won't argue that a pally is durable. Well a bit durable with a 2 hander, when you want to be a brick wall you dawn the shield fighter or pally.

But to say they're 90% of the barbs dps? Jesus christ apparently everyone's been building completly wrong. I mean god **** son, we could all be basically dump trucks, and wailing on things like a dude strung out on pcp! With self healing to boot lol.

I mean... has the barbarian been dead for 20 minutes that the pally is matching 90% of his dmg?

[MattiG]

@Arlathen, it's all about the synergies between THF and U14 changes. Anything that grants +W's is inherently benefitting base dice like eAGA and eSoS much more than any endgame 1 hander, though I would say that Nightmare would be close. Several of the benefits you mention are worthy considerations indeed, but I'm confident you'll agree that the changes to cleave + ED synergies outweigh those benefits whenever you're able to test it for yourself.

Beyond weapon weight benefits, the "secret" x-factor would be Wild Weapons. Not that compelling on paper, but test it in game and you'll see what I mean. I'd wager that a tempest ranger could respec tempest feats for thf feats and come out ahead using thf.

@goodspeed

Barbs obliterate palis through level 20, but so much extra damage potential now comes from ED's, which any class with the required feats could benefit from. Most barbs seem to think Horc is the way to go, while palis tend to be human. That alone accounts for much of the narrowness in the DPS gap as humans destroy Horcs while boosts remain (due to dual boosting haste and damage), and there are very few situations where you'll make it through 10-12 (more for kensai) boosts before being able to shrine or simply finishing the quest.

[Arlathen]

@Arlathen, it's all about the synergies between THF and U14 changes. Anything that grants +W's is inherently benefitting base dice like eAGA and eSoS much more than any endgame 1 hander, though I would say that Nightmare would be close. Several of the benefits you mention are worthy considerations indeed, but I'm confident you'll agree that the changes to cleave + ED synergies outweigh those benefits whenever you're able to test it for yourself.

Beyond weapon weight benefits, the "secret" x-factor would be Wild Weapons. Not that compelling on paper, but test it in game and you'll see what I mean. I'd wager that a tempest ranger could respec tempest feats for thf feats and come out ahead using thf.

@goodspeed

Barbs obliterate palis through level 20, but so much extra damage potential now comes from ED's, which any class with the required feats could benefit from. Most barbs seem to think Horc is the way to go, while palis tend to be human. That alone accounts for much of the narrowness in the DPS gap as humans destroy Horcs while boosts remain (due to dual boosting haste and damage), and there are very few situations where you'll make it through 10-12 (more for kensai) boosts before being able to shrine or simply finishing the quest.

Interesting thoughts. My latest build capitalises on Ranger 12's Tempest 2 100% offhand attacks, and starting out from Primal Avatar I'll be working my way through Fury of the Wild on the way to my eventual chosen destiny (it's all hush hush atm, but will be the subject of my next Theorybuild). It'll give me a chance to see what all the fuss is about.

Good point though on the +X[W] abilities providing much more output in terms of DPS, especially when geared towards Fury and Adrenaline boosts - EAGA is quite sickening with its base 1D20 dice roll, and ESOS gets stupid benefits out of it as well :)

Meh, one day I may roll a THF'er. I just can't bring myself to play a pure Barb :D

[Kinerd]

I've seen several mentions of twf now, and I would wholeheartedly disagree. Twf should be avoided like the plague and especially on palis. Even with one of the epic greataxes, properly feated and ED'd THF is so superior to twf that it makes me sad for all the khopeshes I have rotting in my tr cache.

Several of you who have mentioned TWF have given very solid advice, but to suggest that twf is anything a pali should strive for, makes me wonder if we're playing the same game.

No one that has ED'd wild weapons and momentum swing will argue with this (assuming they did so in a toon with thf feats and both cleaves). Once you get into Fury, a big nasty THF weapon for those exalted smite adrenalines (because of the innate power attack advantage and larger base dice) makes the consideration of anything else completely moot.

not that i'm not open to being surprised by some game mechanic that has somehow escaped my notice, but before any twf proponent disagrees with this, i'd urge you to explore the combination of ED/feats described above before you get too sure. Keep in mind that I love twf and have GS khopeshes on two toons. I personally didn't want THF to be better DPS, but alas.THF is clearly better DPS for multiple targets, no one can argue that. THF is also clearly better for generating big crit numbers. But while the magnitude of better has increased, there isn't anything new in either case. TWF still wins out on high value single targets for the same reasons: on-hit effects represent an enormous amount of damage and infrequently or never apply on glances, and speed kills.

Think of it this way. A TWFer gets about 11 attacks in 3 seconds, depending on things like Tempest or double strike. Shadowdancer's 6d6 alone turns that into 11*21 = 231 damage. Certainly Momentum Swing does more than 231 damage, but the question is whether it does 231 additional damage, and whether it does enough on top of that to make up the gap THF already had to TWF. Let's look at it with eAGA:
base -> base + 5d20 = base + 52.5
critical profile 23 -> 29
So our net gain is 6/20 * base + 29/20 * 52.5, or about .3 * base + 76. To just match the TWF's SD, our base damage has to be 517. It's not.

Of course there's more than just Momentum Swing, but this is just to demonstrate the severity of TWF's advantage by relying on hits rather than cooldown abilities, however apparently potent they are.
But to say they're 90% of the barbs dps? Jesus christ apparently everyone's been building completly wrong. I mean god **** son, we could all be basically dump trucks, and wailing on things like a dude strung out on pcp! With self healing to boot lol.

I mean... has the barbarian been dead for 20 minutes that the pally is matching 90% of his dmg?It wouldn't be the first time everyone was wrong, would it? I still see puggers ask barbarians to tank, reject rogues and sorcerers because "we need dps". As mentioned above, it would even be for the same old reasons: the Gospel of the Big Critical.

[goodspeed]

It wouldn't be the first time everyone was wrong, would it? I still see puggers ask barbarians to tank, reject rogues and sorcerers because "we need dps". As mentioned above, it would even be for the same old reasons: the Gospel of the Big Critical.


True. I know I used to think rogues sucked until I made one the right way. Now I apply with confidence to groups looking for sorc dps. And what doesn't make you feel warm and gooey inside walking up to an EE monster watching a few melee wailing on it, then pick a monster beside their and KO that sucker in seconds flat through sheer dmg.

Though I still think 2hf wins out. Rarely am I ever 1on1 with anything. And the bigboss usually dies pretty **** quick. It's the trash that's deadly, and the trash ya gots to mow through. Well that and **** it I love those crits with an axe.

Also it makes it a bit easier to change up rolls. Now true dawning a shield does cut down on the dps, but it also cuts down on the blows surrounding ya. Seriously it's amazing how much the dmg decreases. And with the thf line, ur still getting those glances.

Of course with is with ED's, if your tring then, well hell nothing matters. And if you haven't bought ED'S lol good luck bud. Cause even the spellsinger bard's gonna whoosh past ya.

[MattiG]

Kinerd, I respect your many contributions to the forums, but there's so much more that goes into "DPS" than the math you've listed. I would be happy to test this objectively, to whatever extent that's possible, because at the end of the day, I'd rather do more DPS on a single target than "be right about something on the forums."

It's clear to me that THF is better DPS against even single targets based on experience (though I can't comment on Sneak Attack and could imagine it might be closer or even better on 0% fort mobs. Then again, 0% fort mobs guarantee big adrenaline crits too). It's clear to you that TWF is better based on math. You've previously pointed out that the track record of "maths vs experience" doesn't bode well for the experience camp, but my assertion is that there are aspects of the DPS equation that aren't easily quantifiable and can be as qualitative as when the actual person behind the keyboard hits their next cleave to break their attack animation. I can't think of a reliable way to quantify "stuff like that," but it makes a tremendous difference overall.

(you do realize that glancing blows are higher than base damage when properly feated / ED'd? And that they apply to single targets? And that they have 100% chance of procc'ing all the extra Fury add-on damage from tunnel vision and sense weakness? There seems to be some confusion about this, but if you weren't already operating under that assumption, this alone would constitute a strong counterargument to the twf proc damage point you raise.)

Rather than volley math vs 'my gut,' I'd rather just test it--more so than I already did before caching my khopeshes (but beware, my gut is a formidable adversary!). Anyway... Any thoughts on putting it to the test short of me simply respeccing to TWF and taking videos? No math will convince me of your point, but if testing did, I'd humbly admit it, and thank you for the eye-opener. Either way, it's fun to learn more about the game, so let me know if you'd like to try to coordinate something.

I don't always get a chance to check the forums daily, but if you reply and I don't, just shoot me a PM.

[Kinerd]

Thanks!

Unfortunately it's very difficult to test DPS in interesting real world scenarios. It's easy to go out and wail on a portal, but that's not interesting for most of us. What we need is a target in a raid (so as to control for scaling) with automatic or at least mostly non-aggro (so as to allow sneak attack) and with some amount of fortification (so as to mimic raid bosses), but this is prohibitively difficult to work in practice. Even if you did take videos, I'm not sure they would tell us anything useful. As for me, I have no THFers anymore so I'm even less help.

I knew the things you said about glancing blows except the part about them being more than base damage. Do you mean in general or only under the epic moment? If the latter, 30 seconds in 5 minutes is only 10% uptime, I'm confident that the conclusion holds. If the former, I am quite surprised and would like to know more.

I think it would also help to re-visit just how severe the gap between TWF and THF became with the advent of Cannith crafting. The slotted eSoS was still the best weapon for THF, but TWF went from Min 2 (effectively Holy and Slicing) to Holy Burst of Greater Bane. Similar reasoning applies to the power creep in damage and Strength we've experienced with MotU et al: TWF gets way more from a unit damage increase and isn't as behind on Strength as 1.5 to 1 suggests. Plus everyone is (justifiably!) moving to the dramatically easier to acquire and higher base damage eAGA over the eSoS, but that necessarily means that the increases are somewhat eaten up by the pre-existing inferiority of the eAGA to the eSoS. At the same time the TWFer plugs away with the same old HBoGBs, and therefore gets full value of their destiny increase.

[MattiG]

I'll endeavor to type more later (using phone at the moment), but indeed it was the regular old glancing blows I was referencing (not the epic moment). I'll try to remember to SS later.

RE: mob selection, i'd just been using EE Sobrien, but he has some limitations.

[Battlehawke]

Just a note of interest. If you want pure, raw DPS with limited self healing, a crappy AC, god awful PRR, dodge then there is no doubt a Barbarian is the way to go!

If you want versatility; to have almost as much DPS (arguably 75.- 90% of)(in Fury Ed) AND the ability to tank with a high AC, high Intimidate, Awesome PRR, high DR, self healing, Monstrous Hate Aggro, and high saves, especially in Unyielding Sentinel ED, then there is NO competition.

A Paladin can do both very well. A Barbarian can't be a great tank without timing his DPS!