Le Suck

[Faent]

So you would think a wizard should sit in Magister, right? No. Draconic Incarnation is about 10X better, since Energy Burst is the new Wail. There is no question that in all content up through Epic Hard, Draconic Incarnation is about 10x better than Magister. And in Epic Elite content, it's still better. What gives? Why is the DC casting destiny so lackluster? Have we just decided it's time to royally shaft DC casters? They were the flavor of the month for awhile, and now they're totally screwed (unless they happen to be Human Pale Masters, which are slightly less screwed than Warforged Archmages?)

[MRMechMan]

Haven't tried Magister much, but the first time I energy bursted, I started laughing. It's basically an AOE polar ray and then some for 20sp. Ridiculous.

[goodspeed]

Actually I think they were flavor for quite a few months there. Though seems like the 2 have their standard purpose. The draconic is without a doubt dps. Dragon lineage and all that ****.

And the other is dc focused. Maybe something else I honestly haven't read into it fully lol. But from glancing at it, it looked like the support destiny. It jacks up your dc's every which way, kills spell cost a bit, hits spell pen up, some other stuff.

I actually thought it was a half way decent Destiny for a pale trying like all hell to reach the epic feats of trying to instakill drows. And AM wise, well hell, I mean ur jacking up all your CC's.

I don't see the problem here. I mean, it jacks up the sole core of a wizard.

[Faent]

I don't see the problem here. I mean, it jacks up the sole core of a wizard.

The problem is that Turbine totally nerfed DC casting. Sure, it's great on Epic Hard and lower content. But then you want to run in Draconic since your instakills are fine without Magister. Any endgame DC wizzie who is running Epic Hard or lower content is a fool if they aren't in Draconic. Magister is total junk in Epic Hard content or lower (for a well-geared endgame wizzie). Magister is also basically total junk in Epic Elite content. So basically, Magister is total junk. So we nerfed Wail, and then passed out Energy Burst and Dragon Breath? That was cute, Turbine. And thanks for the junky Magister Destiny.

[MRMechMan]

Magister is also basically total **** in Epic Elite content.

So the DCs from magister are not needed for EN/EH, and are not enough for EE? Basically anything steamrolls EN/EH, so the argument that draconic REALLY steamrolls it isn't saying much.

It seems like the hp bloat from EH-->EE would make instakilling better...if you can get the DCs for it. If you can't even with magister, maybe draconic is better.

Not attacking you or anything...I am genuinely wondering, I don't have a DC wiz atm and haven't really explored magister much.

I have a guildy that soloed EE OOB as a magister, they can't be THAT bad :D.

[bigolbear]

The problem is that Turbine totally nerfed DC casting. Sure, it's great on Epic Hard and lower content. But then you want to run in Draconic since your instakills are fine without Magister. Any endgame DC wizzie who is running Epic Hard or lower content is a fool if they aren't in Draconic. Magister is total **** in Epic Hard content or lower (for a well-geared endgame wizzie). Magister is also basically total **** in Epic Elite content. So basically, Magister is total ****. So we nerfed Wail, and then passed out Energy Burst and Dragon Breath? That was cute, Turbine. And thanks for the **** Magister Destiny.

you seem angry. embrace you inner calm and review magister again.

heres some hints on how to make it work well.

1. null magic. this feature is extremely useful allowing you to cheaply dispell deathward and fom and masivly lower enemy spell res.

2. the save reduction line for your prefered school. this is also incredibaly useful - using cheap spells or slas to lower the relevant save of a mob.

using points 1 and 2 with some cheap/free debuffing a magister is looking at having +3 to 8 more spell pen and +3 to 8 more DC's - oh and the enemy will have no buffs. A magister in full swing with the school focus and spell pen too can literaly be 10+ dc and spell pen above a similarly feated draconic. This makes all the difference for a moderately equiped first lifer doing epic hard, or a well equiped TR doing epic elite.

the sigils are of use - but are not the main power of the destiny on a wizard.

[Faent]

So the DCs from magister are not needed for EN/EH, and are not enough for EE? Basically anything steamrolls EN/EH, so the argument that draconic REALLY steamrolls it isn't saying much.

No, I think Magister should add value to an endgame caster. It doesn't. Draconic is where you want to be. Sure, an endgame caster can steamroll a lot of Epic Hard content. They can steamroll it way better in Draconic. And they'll do better in Draconic than in Magister even in EE. So Magister sucks.


It seems like the hp bloat from EH-->EE would make instakilling better...if you can get the DCs for it. If you can't even with magister, maybe draconic is better.

Instakilling sucks in EE. Even insanely high DC casters are forced to drop saves. It's a bit better for a Human PM than it is for my WF Archmage, but it still sucks. Damage is frequently FAR better, and Draconic provides this with the new Wail known as Energy Burst. If you' want to be risky, Go Out With A Bang is also awesome. And, off course, you have Dragon Breath. Energy Burst + Dragon Breath will take out almost any group of EE mobs. If it doesn't, an AoE will finish them all off within a few seconds. And this is in addition to your gimped Wail.

Magister doesn't provide the DC's needed to instakill well in EE content. It works better for PM's than Archmages, of course, but it works poorly for both. Draconic is the way to go. This is stupid. The Magister Destiny shouldn't suck this much.

[MRMechMan]

Magister doesn't provide the DC's needed to instakill well in EE content.


Well=95%? 50%?



This is stupid. The Magister Destiny shouldn't suck this much.

~10 DC and ~10 spell pen is what the other guy said, that seems like quite a bit. Less nuking, for sure, but 10 DC and 10 spell pen is the difference between a caster with

3 wiz PL, 3 fvs PL, and +4 tome/+3insightful/+1exceptional/drow/+8 item/yugo/shipbuffed/4 destiny int

vs

1st life caster without ANY tome, elf or WF, +6 int but otherwise naked unyugoed unshippied without EDs

I remember clawing for every DC possible with gear/build, and grinding out 25+ million xp for the past lives. If 10 spellpen and 10 DC are now useless, DDO endgame is very different than I remember.

[goodspeed]

Well the dc's and pens are just fanflippn tastic for LOCKING down the EE's. Ya can't always ko everything. Sorry charlie but if ya wanted dmg, ya rolled the wrong class.

All I see here is "God **** it! Those sonsa *** kfc**** magus are nuking things left and right and my ass can't finger that *** thing. BS!"

If those goofy bards can make the drow reliably disco it out for the duration on those balls, a wizard sure as hell can to.

[sirgog]

I find it hilarious that in their quest to pretend Magisters suck, people just ignore that a magister soloed Epic Elite Offering of Blood, one of the very hardest of all EE quests.

Favored Souls suck. Stop telling me that one soloed elite TOD at the level 20 cap, they suck, not listening not listening not listening

[Zonixx]

Magisters do not suck. I have spent about 90% of my time at level 25 in magister and not draconic.

First of all, it is a lot easier to slot +6 charisma/int in magister then draconic, offering at least +1 dc then draconic does (as an acid savant, +1 web dc means a lot in EE's)

Secondly, the -10% sp can be nice. It adds up, especially with all your SP clickies/etc.. it can end up being an effective ~500-600 extra sp per rest, which is an extra bauble or more

Thirdly, the tier 1 +6 saves really do make a difference to your saves especially in epic elites, they may not seem impressive but oh man do they add up.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Personally, although magister is undeniably effective for me it's a "do what you were doing before, just better" destiny - i prefer either draconic or shiradi for my wizards, simply for the addition of extra, different capabilities & tricks.

[hit_fido]

If I played a pale master in groups much more than now, I would stay in magister more often. With faster cast speed and +3 caster level I could focus more on the instakilling and be better at it. With a time investment to get the fate points you can still twist in energy burst (tier 4).

Draconic's big benefit is giving more viable DPS tools against varied content. Which helps (me) get things done faster when solo.

How would OP improve magister without nerfing draconic? The issue for me is the excessive prerequisites to get the 15% faster casting and +3 caster level. If you're spending 12 points in that line to get the 3rd rank, that leaves 10 points for +5 INT and 2 that you have to spend in tier 1, probably for unearthly reaction. So now if you want the SP discount you either have to lose caster levels or INT. And you still don't get to play with any of the null magic stuff and sigils, and have no room at all for the spell penetration ability either unless you drop other stuff even further. Contrast this with draconic where even just 1 rank in energy burst is very effective.

[SirValentine]

So you would think a wizard should sit in Magister, right? No. Draconic Incarnation is about 10X better, since Energy Burst is the new Wail.


On my Sorc, I happened to level every other destiny (except PA not out yet then) to at least level 3 or 4 before I even touched Draconic. But once I got Energy Burst...WOW!

However, I don't feel a need to stay in Draconic, because Energy Burst is twistable. ANY other destiny, with Energy Burst twisted in, seems to me to be almost as good DPS as just staying Draconic. Magister and Fatesinger both have some nice stuff, and even in a totally-off destiny I feel I'm doing fine.

[bigolbear]

********. I dare you to try to demonstrate that with a breakdown. You are clueless.

Well arent you rude, sheesh. Thankfully your also wrong.

heres the break down you asked for. - and just to disprove your point about it being 'pms only' im going to assume a necro speced archamge as base.

The cheap debufs of choice will be:
1 magic missile - no metas applied.
2. fear - no metas applied.
3. chain missile - no metas applied.
4. waves of fatigue - no metas applied.
5. lesser death aura - no metas applied.

DC increases(including relative bonuses by lowering saves):
+3 necro DC. - spell school specialist.
+10 dc (15% chance of reducing fort save by 10 when a necro spell is cast-use the cheap debufs for this).
+2 shaken effect from fear - one of the debufs.
total +15 higher relative DC for necromancy spells that target fort saves.

spell pen increases (including relative bonuses by lowering SR)
+3 spell pen - peircing spell craft.
+4 spell pen(15% chance of reducing spell res by 4 with all spells, also prevents enemy from casting.)
+4 spell pen(6% proc AOE all enemies when you are hit.. arrows count for -4 SR to enemies.)
+3 caster lvl
total: +14 higher relative spell pen. Admitedly im not certian the 2 null types stack - so thats potentialy only +10 Spell pen.

It is worth noting that the debuf proc chance happens for every spell effect applied, so magic missile for example has 5 x 15% proc chance of null magic strike. AOE's apply the proc chance to every mob effected.

ref - soruce: DDO wiki.

So now that I have provided a break down demonstrating my point are you going to man up and apologise?

[fco-karatekid]

So you would think a wizard should sit in Magister, right? No. ...

Actually I don't any more. When ED's first came out, I assumed that, but found that cross-class synergies (thus far) tend to be a MUCH nicer mix for me. Ranger Tempest III with a splash of Draconic and Magister? Yes please! the defensive buffs from those is REALLY nice. Toss in some Lithe from Shadowdancer and you're fricking bullet-proof.

I might change my mind if I ever get back on the game to play my Arty to cap and above; but for now - cross-class synergy is where I think the true value lies. I suspect Arty + Shiradi will rock, for example.

[Wipey]

My wizard can't but for those that can instakill in epic elites why wouldn't they stay in destiny that let them do that ?
You don't need to do damage to dead things.

[Kinerd]

Energy Burst is great. Dragon Breath isn't that great, you only get 5 uses and the range is pitiful.

I am having a hard time believing your claims about DC/Spell Pen. What numbers do you have for them in DI?

I am having a very hard time finding the claim that DC casters are "totally screwed" credible. Your hyperbole only serves to weaken your case.

[Faent]

DC increases(including relative bonuses by lowering saves):
+3 necro DC. - spell school specialist.
+10 dc (15% chance of reducing fort save by 10 when a necro spell is cast-use the cheap debufs for this).
+2 shaken effect from fear - one of the debufs.
total +15 higher relative DC for necromancy spells that target fort saves.

No. Necromancy Augmentation grants a 15% Chance of lowering Fort Saves by 5. It's not +10. The +3 Necro DC from Necromancy Specialist is something you obviously TWIST when you're running Draconic. So that's a wash too. The +2 Shaken from Fear is from the Fear Spell, and has nothing to do with Destinies. So that's irrelevant. You're making up these numbers.


spell pen increases (including relative bonuses by lowering SR)
+3 spell pen - peircing spell craft.
+4 spell pen(15% chance of reducing spell res by 4 with all spells, also prevents enemy from casting.)
+4 spell pen(6% proc AOE all enemies when you are hit.. arrows count for -4 SR to enemies.)
+3 caster lvl
total: +14 higher relative spell pen. Admitedly im not certian the 2 null types stack - so thats potentialy only +10 Spell pen.

No. You Twist in Piercing Spellcraft from Magister when you're in Draconic, and you twist in Piercing Spellcraft from Draconic when you're in Magister. So that's a wash. The 6% Proc to reduce Spell Pen requires a full AP investment in Nullmagic Guard. It makes no sense for an endgame caster to have this in Epic Hard or lower content (since they already have their Spell Pen covered), and it is worthless in Epic Elite content. The 15% chance of reducing Spell Resistance by 4 is Nullmagic Strike, and that requires a full investment of AP in the already worthless Nullmagic Guard and in Nullmagic Strike. It is also a waste of AP, since endgame casters have their Spell Pen already covered without needing it.

But just for the heck of it, I reset my tree to pick up this suggested nonsense. I purchased 1 Tier of Intelligence, thus I'm taking a nice DC hit to all my spells there. I purchased 3x Piercing Spellcraft, 3x Unearthly Reactions, 3x Nullmagic Guard, 3x Nullmagic Strike, Arcane Adept, 3x Necromancy Augmentation, and then 2x Necromancy Familiarity. At this point, I was out of AP. And doing so cost me the ability to pick up Master of Necromancy. So that's a -3 to Spell Pen there due to wasted AP's spent on trying to get a SR debuff to proc.

I think you are making this stuff up. No endgame wizard in their right mind is going to take Nullmagic Guard or Nullmagic Strike. You seem to not understand that these are NEVER needed on an endgame wizard in ANY content. They are simply a WASTE of AP. Perhaps if you don't have the past lives to back up your Spell Pen, you'd take them, but that's it.

You are correct that sitting in Magister can give you a 5 DC boost over Draconic. This is from the CHANCE to proc a Fort Debuff on a mob, which, by the way, costs you Spell Points if you're an Archmage. Pale Masters can try to land it for free. That (and limited uses of Arcane Spellsurge) are the primary differences. You can also pick up +3 Spell Pen from the top of that redonkulously AP-intensive tree by taking Master of Necromancy x3. Doing that is going to cut you out of almost EVERYTHING ELSE in the Destiny. Among other things, you'll be giving up a TON of INT, which, you know, is what you want for your DC's.

Your math is bad. You don't know what you're talking about. An end-game wizard is NUTS if they run anything but Draconic in Epic Hard or lower content. If you aren't an end-game wizard, then you might need to waste AP on trying to recover Spell Pen in Magister, sure. But I'm not talking about wizards who aren't tricked out with past lives.

[Faent]

Energy Burst is great. Dragon Breath isn't that great, you only get 5 uses and the range is pitiful.

I very much enjoy Dragon Breath. When I'm in Draconic, I run through all my uses, all the time. It's like having 5 EiN's (that you have to aim, sure, but that's not a big deal). Energy Burst is like having endless EiN's on a short timer in Epic Hard content. And when you're working on rounding up mobs in Epic Hard, you take HP attrition, which means you also have safe uses of Go Out With a Bang, which is another EiN. Energy Vortex simply rocks in Epic Hard as well.

Energy Burst alone will drop groups of EE mobs sometimes. Energy Burst + Dragon Breath will get the job done frequently as well. Dragon Breath and Energy Vortex are obviously riskier in Epic Elite. You have to be careful with them, but they're still awesome.


I am having a hard time believing your claims about DC/Spell Pen. What numbers do you have for them in DI?

Draconic is just as good for Spell Pen as Magister, on an end-game wizard. In Draconic, you take Draconic Piercing Spellcraft and twist Magister Piercing Spellcraft. In Magister, you take Magister Piercing Spellcraft and twist Draconic Piercing Spellcraft. The only Spell Pen differences comes from the top of that redonkulously AP intensive tree in Magister (namely, Master of Necromancy). But you want to be able to hit good enough Spell Pen without climbing that tree, since it's an insane waste of AP.

Edit: The Magister SP reduction (Arcane Adept) is also broken. It doesn't stack with The Staff of the Petitioner.

[bigolbear]

ok op, im basicly done arguing with you, because you have constantly insulted me and its like talking to a brick wall or some arrogant little child with their fingers in thier ears.

I provided a full breakdown, sourced from the wiki - and yes i know the wiki is a player maintained resource but its often a lot more accurate than ingame info.

so the +10 is +5 you say in the case of necromancy. ok - wiki says +10 and my sorc is reducing reflex saves by 10 with that ability. I didnt check necromancy as my wis is out of that destiny at the mo.

Reading through your responce - it seems that the basis of your argument relies on the fact that all the good stuff from magister can be twisted if your in draconic. This does not make it a worthless destiny - think how much worse off you'd be if these things werent around to be twisted.

Id also point out that energy burst - the big draw of draconic can be twisted into magister.

The null magic line meant the difference of relaible spell pen vs unreliable spell pen for my wiz on epic elite, it is far from worthless.

Have fun playing with your dragon powers and lookign at the prety big numbers.

[Faent]

The null magic line meant the difference of relaible spell pen vs unreliable spell pen for my wiz on epic elite, it is far from worthless.

I realized that. And that's not relevant to my post. No endgame wizzie will EVER take those. It's worth something for people who haven't ground out the past lives needed to hit the Spell Pen requirements, sure. Once you have done so, it's a total waste of AP. I'm not talking about wizzies that can't hit competent Spell Pen without wasting points on the Nullmagic line.


I provided a full breakdown, sourced from the wiki - and yes i know the wiki is a player maintained resource but its often a lot more accurate than ingame info.

Your breakdown was play math that didn't take account of twists, included irrelevant information, and ignored the AP costs needed to hit what you said you could take.


so the +10 is +5 you say in the case of necromancy. ok - wiki says +10 and my sorc is reducing reflex saves by 10 with that ability. I didnt check necromancy as my wis is out of that destiny at the mo.

It's reported in game as +5 for Necromancy. Fear also doesn't appear to Proc it. I'm not sure WHAT procs it. Archmage SLA's don't appear to proc it either.


Reading through your responce - it seems that the basis of your argument relies on the fact that all the good stuff from magister can be twisted if your in draconic. This does not make it a worthless destiny - think how much worse off you'd be if these things werent around to be twisted.

The point is that there should be a reason for an endgame Archmage to want to be in Magister. And there really is almost no reason to want to be in Magister. This is ABSOLUTELY the case for all content up through Epic Hard. And it's arguably the case in Epic Elite as well.

[Faent]

~10 DC and ~10 spell pen is what the other guy said, that seems like quite a bit. Less nuking, for sure, but 10 DC and 10 spell pen is the difference between a caster with 3 wiz PL, 3 fvs PL, and +4 tome/+3insightful/+1exceptional/drow/+8 item/yugo/shipbuffed/4 destiny int vs 1st life caster without ANY tome, elf or WF, +6 int but otherwise naked unyugoed unshippied without EDs

Yes, casters who haven't ground out the necessary past lives to perform well in Epic Elite against high SR mobs will no doubt want to stay in Magister so that they have a chance in hell of landing something. For the casters that have done this, staying in Magister is pretty darn lame. It's beyond lame in EH content or lower, and it's arguably still quite lame in EE content.


I remember clawing for every DC possible with gear/build, and grinding out 25+ million xp for the past lives. If 10 spellpen and 10 DC are now useless, DDO endgame is very different than I remember.

That was fake math. I'll give him the 10 DC point, with qualifications. In Magister, you can get a slim chance in hell of dropping mobs Fort Saves by 5. (Sucks to be an Archmage here.) And you can Arcane Spell Surge a limited number of times. So *if* you Arcane Spell Surge against a mob you've procced the Fort debuff on, then you're up by 10 on your Necro DC's. Sorry, that's no good. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And this hardly helps your Wail. So you're going to burn your Arcane Spellsurge on your Fingers when you've already managed to land that Fort Debuff? ROFL.

[the613]

I realized that. And that's not relevant to my post. No endgame wizzie will EVER take those. It's worth something for people who haven't ground out the past lives needed to hit the Spell Pen requirements, sure. Once you have done so, it's a total waste of AP. I'm not talking about wizzies that can't hit competent Spell Pen without wasting points on the Nullmagic line.



Your breakdown was play math that didn't take account of twists, included irrelevant information, and ignored the AP costs needed to hit what you said you could take.



It's reported in game as +5 for Necromancy. Fear also doesn't appear to Proc it. I'm not sure WHAT procs it. Archmage SLA's don't appear to proc it either.



The point is that there should be a reason for an endgame Archmage to want to be in Magister. And there really is almost no reason to want to be in Magister. This is ABSOLUTELY the case for all content up through Epic Hard. And it's arguably the case in Epic Elite as well.

NOTE: I have not actually played with a wizard with epic destinies, I tred my wizard before getting the epic destiny pack. What I am writing is based off of playing around with the destiny planner.

Alright, now to what I want to say. You seem to be saying that Magister is useless simply because it isn't that good for Archmage. If AM gets more from draconic, that doesn't mean Magister is worthless. Let's take a look at it from a PM view.

For a PM, who's specialty is in negative energy and instakills, death ward can stop them in their tracks. Thus, null magic guard/strike is very beneficial, since it can dispel a death ward, giving magister a bonus over draconic. Most instakills have pretty long cooldowns, so spell school familiarity helps you instakill faster.

In honest opinion, the lower tier stuff aren't very useful, and everything but the spell school line, null magic guard/strike, and arcane adept are filler options imo. The bottom line is it depends on the person. A PM who needs the boost to DCs and wants to really focus on instakills would probably prefer the magister destiny, taking advantage of null magic to get rid of pesky death wards.

Maybe for your playstyle Magister is very weak, but that doesn't mean it is worthless for everyone.

[Kinerd]

I very much enjoy Dragon Breath. When I'm in Draconic, I run through all my uses, all the time. It's like having 5 EiN's (that you have to aim, sure, but that's not a big deal). Energy Burst is like having endless EiN's on a short timer in Epic Hard content. And when you're working on rounding up mobs in Epic Hard, you take HP attrition, which means you also have safe uses of Go Out With a Bang, which is another EiN. Energy Vortex simply rocks in Epic Hard as well.

Energy Burst alone will drop groups of EE mobs sometimes. Energy Burst + Dragon Breath will get the job done frequently as well. Dragon Breath and Energy Vortex are obviously riskier in Epic Elite. You have to be careful with them, but they're still awesome....so like I said: Energy Burst is great. Dragon Breath isn't that great. :)
Draconic is just as good for Spell Pen as Magister, on an end-game wizard. In Draconic, you take Draconic Piercing Spellcraft and twist Magister Piercing Spellcraft. In Magister, you take Magister Piercing Spellcraft and twist Draconic Piercing Spellcraft. The only Spell Pen differences comes from the top of that redonkulously AP intensive tree in Magister (namely, Master of Necromancy). But you want to be able to hit good enough Spell Pen without climbing that tree, since it's an insane waste of AP.

Edit: The Magister SP reduction (Arcane Adept) is also broken. It doesn't stack with The Staff of the Petitioner.It's odd to me that you are quick to point out that the Spell Pen can be twisted but apparently ignore that Energy Burst can.

I would like to ask again, however: what are your specific numbers for Spell Pen and DC in Draconic Incarnation? It is fundamental to your case.

[aradelothion]

I've been convinced that, for Sorcerers at least (and Air Savants in particular), Magister *is* the way to go. SP discount, faster evo cooldowns and -save procs from evo spells, with twisted Energy Burst (or maybe Sense Weakness if enchantment spec'd and if the +30% damage to helpless mobs includes spells, I haven't checked) and other goodies, and you're looking at some serious DPS.

For Wizards though, I tend to agree, but I think that's because my pure Wiz is an undergeared first-lifer (my first toon, and it shows: doesn't even have the SP regen necklace clicky from Korthos lol), and he barely cracks 49-50 Necro DC and ~48 spell pen, so the huge damage boost from cheap Draconic SLA's are more noticeable.

[AtomicMew]

...so like I said: Energy Burst is great. Dragon Breath isn't that great. :)It's odd to me that you are quick to point out that the Spell Pen can be twisted but apparently ignore that Energy Burst can.

I would like to ask again, however: what are your specific numbers for Spell Pen and DC in Draconic Incarnation? It is fundamental to your case.
I tentatively agree that with Faent that Draconic is better. I have a completionist draconic pale master, and it just feels much more powerful. In epic hard, draconic is unquestionably superior. In epic elite, I think it's a matter of debate that comes down to whether the null magic line is worth it or not.

As far as pure DC and spell penetration numbers go, draconic is only down one DC or 3 spell pen (though not both).

Magister would twist in the following:

+1 int, +1 int, +1 int/2 spell pen

Draconic would twist in:

+3 necro DC, +3 spell pen, +1 int/2 spell pen.

So the actual absolute DC's are not all that different.

[Faent]

...so like I said: Energy Burst is great. Dragon Breath isn't that great. :)It's odd to me that you are quick to point out that the Spell Pen can be twisted but apparently ignore that Energy Burst can.

Two of my twists are occupied permanently. Spell Penentration +3 (from either Magister or Draconic) and Echoes of the Ancestors: Arcane (+1 INT, +2 Spell Pen) from Fatesinger. My third twist is typically Endless Faith from Exalted Angel.

In that setup, there is no *pure* DC difference between Magister and Draconic. There is also only a +3 Spell Pen difference gotten for a single class (Necro) from Magister Master of Necromancy (which an endgame wizard isn't going to want anyway).


I would like to ask again, however: what are your specific numbers for Spell Pen and DC in Draconic Incarnation? It is fundamental to your case.

It's pretty simple. I've already answered this. The pure Spell Pen boost in Magister comes from Master of [School], which nobody wants at endgame. Magister is not up in pure DC's either. It's up in non-pure DC's from the Fort Save Debuff (which is currently broken and far better for PM's anyway) and Arcane Spell Surge (5x/rest). But taking that Fort Save Debuff (which is broken right now) will cut you out of INT tiers, and so be a slightly less net benefit than it's advertised to be.

[Faent]

For a PM, who's specialty is in negative energy and instakills, death ward can stop them in their tracks. Thus, null magic guard/strike is very beneficial, since it can dispel a death ward, giving magister a bonus over draconic.

Archmages specialize in instakills too, you know. Magister is slightly better for PM's because of the Fort Save Debuff they can land for free. (But remember, that's currently broken in the game.) Null Magic doesn't favor the PM over the AM at all. It only would if you assumed that PM's were the only people interested in getting around Deathward. But you'd only assume that if you never realized that Archmages have never been behind PM's in terms of Necro spells. (Yes, strictly speaking, gear and racial choices put Pale Masters ahead of Archmages in terms of Necro. But in the past, they BARELY put the PM ahead. It's getting worse and worse. AM's have been radically neglected. Probably because the DEV's don't play Archmages.) And there are typically better ways around Death Ward anyways, such as being fast or using Enlarge if you're slow.

[the613]

Archmages specialize in instakills too, you know. Magister is slightly better for PM's because of the Fort Save Debuff they can land for free. (But remember, that's currently broken in the game.) Null Magic doesn't favor the PM over the AM at all. It only would if you assumed that PM's were the only people interested in getting around Deathward. But you'd only assume that if you never realized that Archmages have never been behind PM's in terms of Necro spells. (Yes, strictly speaking, gear and racial choices put Pale Masters ahead of Archmages in terms of Necro. But in the past, they BARELY put the PM ahead. It's getting worse and worse. AM's have been radically neglected. Probably because the DEV's don't play Archmages.) And there are typically better ways around Death Ward anyways, such as being fast or using Enlarge if you're slow.

My statement was based on the fact that PMs are strictly specialized in necromancy, while AMs may or may not be. For a necro AM, it probably applies the same as for a PM. In the end, it is a personal thing IMO, as I have already stated. My point is just because you find it is horrible for yourself doesn't mean someone else won't receive greater benefit from it.

For me (I am going to be playing a PM next life), Magister would probably be a better destiny because my comp has trouble with large drawing distances (this is a personal issue that I plan to rectify eventually), so enlarge isn't that helpful, due to being unable to target long distance opponents most of the time. Thus, I gain a lot more from the null magic line then someone who wasn't using a ****** comp like I am.

[MRMechMan]

For a sorc, magister isn't bad at all, as someone said. I know that wasn't the comparison of this thread, but once you can twist in energy burst,

-15% cooldowns
about +10 DCs (15% proc WILL land pretty quick)
-10% sp costs
45 spellpower from sigil (maybe?)

vs
5x dragon breath (1min cooldown)
energy vortex (2min cooldown)

of courses you can twist in bits and pieces of either side you want, but not having to spend 6 AP on go out with a bang and energy sheath is nice, more room for cha.

Lets face it, energy burst IS the big draw of draconic, hands down. But in terms of making the actual sorc spells better, magister>draconic.

[AtomicMew]

For a sorc, magister isn't bad at all, as someone said. I know that wasn't the comparison of this thread, but once you can twist in energy burst,

-15% cooldowns
about +10 DCs (15% proc WILL land pretty quick)
-10% sp costs
45 spellpower from sigil (maybe?)

vs
5x dragon breath (1min cooldown)
energy vortex (2min cooldown)

of courses you can twist in bits and pieces of either side you want, but not having to spend 6 AP on go out with a bang and energy sheath is nice, more room for cha.

Lets face it, energy burst IS the big draw of draconic, hands down. But in terms of making the actual sorc spells better, magister>draconic.

-Tier 3 spell augmentation is expensive and requires sacrifice of something else, and is counterbalanced by draconic augmentation which can do the same thing.

-Arcane adept is counterbalanced by draconic hunger.

-15% cooldown on a school isn't very good, since sorc cooldowns are already low.

-You're also forgetting that draconic incarnation gets passive spellpower and MCL boosts to two different elements, which means spells cast by a draconic sorc are strictly more powerful than spells cast by magister sorc.

[Lustrum]

-Tier 3 spell augmentation is expensive and requires sacrifice of something else, and is counterbalanced by draconic augmentation which can do the same thing.

-Arcane adept is counterbalanced by draconic hunger.

-15% cooldown on a school isn't very good, since sorc cooldowns are already low.

-You're also forgetting that draconic incarnation gets passive spellpower and MCL boosts to two different elements, which means spells cast by a draconic sorc are strictly more powerful than spells cast by magister sorc.

Unless I'm missing something but draconic hunger only offers a 10% chance of triggering 15 temporary spell points, while it increases to 50% chance of procing when draconic fury is active it can't countervalance arcane adept which is -10% sp all the time, which also stacks with another -10% source on an item.

and do sorc cooldowns not get any lower with evocation familiarity? It sounds badass to have even lower cooldowns but I don't know since I haven't played around with it too much.

[AtomicMew]

Unless I'm missing something but draconic hunger only offers a 10% chance of triggering 15 temporary spell points, while it increases to 50% chance of procing when draconic fury is active it can't countervalance arcane adept which is -10% sp all the time, which also stacks with another -10% source on an item.

and do sorc cooldowns not get any lower with evocation familiarity? It sounds badass to have even lower cooldowns but I don't know since I haven't played around with it too much.

Energy burst means whole mobs are dead, and the chance becomes a lot higher than 10%. And if that doesn't counterbalance, higher MCL and spell power certainly does.

And with evocation familiarity, I never felt the need. I can spam spells back to back all day on a sorc and never feel limited by cooldown.

[MRMechMan]

Energy burst means whole mobs are dead, and the chance becomes a lot higher than 10%. And if that doesn't counterbalance, higher MCL and spell power certainly does.

And with evocation familiarity, I never felt the need. I can spam spells back to back all day on a sorc and never feel limited by cooldown.

How many mobs do you kill in a typical quest? 50? 100? Maybe a couple hundred if soloing a weirdly long quest? That's 75/150/300 sp, respectively.

A typical sorc has 3000+ sp, 10% less sp is better than hunger unless you kill 200+ mobs PER shrine....I don't see that happening often.

I definitely noticed the -cooldowns. It is a very nice DPS increase. Try spamming 3 lvl5+ spells in a chain without it without pausing...you can't without that -cooldown.

Again, draconic max caster/caster level is not higher than magister.

Also, magister is per SCHOOL, not element, which basically means 3 elements. So the fact that you can get a second school with draconic is pretty moot.

Draconic augmentation is not the same as evoc augmentation. Not even close. You keep using the word counterbalanced but I don't think it is accurate in any of those cases.

I'll probably run draconic at least till I can twist in energy burst but I have been thrilled with Magister on my sorc particularly after reading this thread and expecting it to be terrible. It isn't.

[Vellrad]

Arguing about spell augmentation is pointless, because they both are simply not working ;)

[Faent]

So by endgame instakilling caster, I mean a LVL 25 Necromancy focused caster (so at least SF: Necro and GSF: Necro) with at least 3x WIZ, 3x FvS past lives and all destinies locked in.

My first point, which is obviously true, was this:

In Epic Hard content or lower an endgame instakilling caster is nuts if they are running Magister rather than Draconic.

My second point, which is arguably true, was this:

In Epic Elite content, an endgame instakilling caster is nuts if they are running Magister rather than Draconic.

In summary, Magister sucks for endgame instakilling casters. (Of course, Magister is currently totally borked. And if it were working, it would suck LESS for PM's than AM's. This is a glaring DEV oversight, as are the gearing options for WF.) That Magister sucks so much for endgame instakilling casters is no doubt intended by Turbine.

There is a huge metagame nerf in progress for instakilling casters. And everything the DEVs are rolling out now seems designed to give folks who aren't endgame a quick boost. Magister is designed, primarily, to give an undergeared and underequipped instakiller a fast boost in EH or lower content, just like most of the MoTU gear is designed to give undergeared and underequipped toons a fast boost in EH or lower content.

Turbine is also trying to compress the endgame, so they can manage to balance things better. The Draconic and Magister Destinies are well-suited for this purpose. They aren't suited to benefit any particular kind of endgame toon, just like most of the gear isn't suited to benefit any endgame toons. Everyone is being shunted into PRETTY MUCH THE SAME, and it's now fairly easy for everyone to be PRETTY MUCH THE SAME.

[Faent]

I'll probably run draconic at least till I can twist in energy burst but I have been thrilled with Magister on my sorc particularly after reading this thread and expecting it to be terrible. It isn't.

I didn't give you any reason to think Magister on your Sorc isn't awesome. This thread wasn't about Sorcs in Magister. It was about how Magister SUCKS for endgame instakilling casters.

However, in EH content or lower, you're nuts if you opt for Magister over Draconic. In that content, Draconic is hands down the best destiny for your Sorc.

I can't really argue the Draconic vs. Magister debate for an endgame Sorcerer in EE content since I don't play one. I play an endgame wizzie, not an endgame sorcie. What I can tell you is that the endgame sorcies I know who run in Draconic fracking rule. They can pull off feats my endgame wizzie cannot pull off. Right now, it looks like the balance of power in EE content has tipped heavily in favor of the endgame raw DPS sorcie over the endgame DC based instakilling wizzie.

In EH content or lower, no endgame toon really cares. It's all beyond trivial. And for any kind of caster, Draconic renders it wholly trivial. Draconic turns EH content or lower into a complete JOKE. Magister does not.

If you want one example, go try to run a 5 star level 25 Ring of Fire in Magister. Then go try to run the same thing in Draconic.

[LeLoric]

I didn't give you any reason to think Magister on your Sorc isn't awesome. This thread wasn't about Sorcs in Magister. It was about how Magister SUCKS for endgame instakilling casters.

However, in EH content or lower, you're nuts if you opt for Magister over Draconic. In that content, Draconic is hands down the best destiny for your Sorc.

I can't really argue the Draconic vs. Magister debate for an endgame Sorcerer in EE content since I don't play one. I play an endgame wizzie, not an endgame sorcie. What I can tell you is that the endgame sorcies I know who run in Draconic fracking rule. They can pull off feats my endgame wizzie cannot pull off. Right now, it looks like the balance of power in EE content has tipped heavily in favor of the endgame raw DPS sorcie over the endgame DC based instakilling wizzie.

In EH content or lower, no endgame toon really cares. It's all beyond trivial. And for any kind of caster, Draconic renders it wholly trivial. Draconic turns EH content or lower into a complete JOKE. Magister does not.

If you want one example, go try to run a 5 star level 25 Ring of Fire in Magister. Then go try to run the same thing in Draconic.

No EH or lower content is a complete joke regardless of destiny if it's not you need to look at other issues not your destiny.

As for EE content it really depends on the quest and there really is no perfect answer. If you are too set in your way to realize when one setup is better versus the other then you are not taking full advantage of all options available to you for success. Just because instakills may not be working as well doesn't mean magister can't offer options to a high dc caster.

As far as the balance of power it was never really that much in favor of the dc caster anyways pre expansion as good sorcs killed as fast/faster and did more boss dps than wizzies although wizzies were better at soloing in general.

As far as the newest/hardest content I would much rather have magister set for enchantment on my instakilling pale master than draconic or necro magister. Keeping +3 spell pen twisted in in this setup is a huge waste also. Other than favor runs theres not much reason to be sticking yourself in underdark/demonweb content with the new chain available with higher loot level. New chain requires little to no spell pen and instakills need to be focused towards weak fort saves for which you don't need the extra magister necro boost and enchant cc for the higher fort save mobs which you wouldnt hit without debuffs even if you were a full necro magister. Makes for a great setup for enchantment based magister.

[Faent]

No EH or lower content is a complete joke regardless of destiny if it's not you need to look at other issues not your destiny.

If you say "No.." I expect you to be objecting to something I said. I have repeatedly said that EH is a joke. It is, however, *more* of a joke on a wizard in Draconic than it is for a wizard in Magister. This is because in EH content and lower, Draconic effectively provides multiple Wails of the Banshee and a massive boost to boss DPS.


As far as the newest/hardest content I would much rather have magister set for enchantment on my instakilling pale master than draconic or necro magister.

Enchantment and Necro are incredibly lackluster in much of Druid's Deep (plants) and The High Road (undead). Epic Ward is also all over the place in EE. There are a few places where enchantment shines, but not many. Are you stumping for a return to the days when wizards are supposed to be enchant focused, by the way? If you're telling me that Magister is great because I can be enchant focused in it, well, I think you've already lost the battle over how great Magister is.

[LeLoric]

If you say "No.." I expect you to be objecting to something I said. I have repeatedly said that EH is a joke. It is, however, *more* of a joke on a wizard in Draconic than it is for a wizard in Magister. This is because in EH content and lower, Draconic effectively provides multiple Wails of the Banshee and a massive boost to boss DPS.


Yes EH is easy that's my point why care. Besides if you aren't twisting in Energy burst running EH content then you are doing it wrong if you have Energy burst plus faster cooldown wails/circle of deaths/fingers i'd take that over what straight draconic has for EH content. Most of your argument is based off the premise that you always need to have spell pen twisted in when it's most of the time a waste.



Enchantment and Necro are incredibly lackluster in much of Druid's Deep (plants) and The High Road (undead). Epic Ward is also all over the place in EE. There are a few places where enchantment shines, but not many. Are you stumping for a return to the days when wizards are supposed to be enchant focused, by the way? If you're telling me that Magister is great because I can be enchant focused in it, well, I think you've already lost the battle over how great Magister is.

Um this statement is so full of incorrect information it's silly. First necro is great against plants and undead if you can't figure out why you need to relearn playing a caster. Second in the new chain the hardest hitting toughest mobs are not plant or undead they are humans with pretty high fort saves and as such enchantment is the best way of dealing with them. Epic ward does little to affect enchantment and only affects necro on orange nameds.
If you don't want to use enchantment don't but thats like leaving the hammer in the toolbox and grabbing a screwdriver when you need to pound nails in. I use the best tool for the job that's what being a wizard is all about.


Once again the big benefit to the newer content in EE is it has very little spell pen requirement so twisitng in energy burst as well as freeing up points in magister for things like tempest to give dps while still maintaining the benefits of magister makes it clearly the best option for me in this content. If i was still intent on running drow based content on EE regularly then things are different but I have little reason to run that content anymore.

[voodoogroves]

Once again the big benefit to the newer content in EE is it has very little spell pen requirement so twisitng in energy burst as well as freeing up points in magister for things like tempest to give dps while still maintaining the benefits of magister makes it clearly the best option for me in this content. If i was still intent on running drow based content on EE regularly then things are different but I have little reason to run that content anymore.

I LR'd and moved some feats around on mine so I could fit in SF conjuration as well (for the DI twist). It's only +2, but that's the kind of flexibility I actually like in swapping the destinies.

[Ape_Man]

Enchantment and Necro are incredibly lackluster in much of Druid's Deep (plants) and The High Road (undead). Epic Ward is also all over the place in EE. There are a few places where enchantment shines, but not many. Are you stumping for a return to the days when wizards are supposed to be enchant focused, by the way? If you're telling me that Magister is great because I can be enchant focused in it, well, I think you've already lost the battle over how great Magister is.

1. Who cares about Druid's deep? The quests are dumb, the loot is meh, and insta-kills still work okay.

2. The High-road quests is mostly humans and an enchament specc'd wizard in there pwns. A dc 55 insta-kill doesn't.

You're a wizard. You can change your spells out before every quest. With EDs you can change the +3 DCs that to whatever school is the most appropriate. You gimp yourself by not taking advantage of the flexibility of your class.

[Ape_Man]

I use the best tool for the job that's what being a wizard is all about . . .


Somebody gets it!

[Faent]

1. Who cares about Druid's deep? The quests are dumb...

Nice response. By the way, Draconic dominates Magister in Druid's Deep. By a million miles.


You're a wizard. You can change your spells out before every quest.

O RLY? Thanks for the tip. I'll keep that in mind in the future. Maybe reserve the baby talk for your newborn child, yeah?


With EDs you can change the +3 DCs that to whatever school is the most appropriate. You gimp yourself by not taking advantage of the flexibility of your class.

I do plenty of ED swapping/resetting as it is while working on figuring out the best combinations. What I don't plan to do, for the long haul, is reset the AP in an ED between every quest. (Not to mention, resets are a royal pain. They take forever, due to bad coding.) If you want to putter along like this in order to optimize every quest, more power to you, but I don't see this as a benefit. And, of course, a wizard doesn't, for the most part, need to do this.

[Ape_Man]

Nice response.


Thank you.



By the way, Draconic dominates Magister in Druid's Deep. By a million miles.

Good know know. If I ever feel like slumming and running that garbage content I'll keep that in mind.




O RLY? Thanks for the tip. I'll keep that in mind in the future. Maybe reserve the baby talk for your newborn child, yeah?

if the tantrum fits . . .




I do plenty of ED swapping/resetting as it is while working on figuring out the best combinations. What I don't plan to do, for the long haul, is reset the AP in an ED between every quest. (Not to mention, resets are a royal pain. They take forever, due to bad coding.) If you want to putter along like this in order to optimize every quest, more power to you, but I don't see this as a benefit. And, of course, a wizard doesn't, for the most part, need to do this.

keep making excuses, we'll keep making these quests look easy.

[Faent]

keep making excuses, we'll keep making these quests look easy.

You're such a hero. ::yawns::

[Andoris]

Both Magister and Draconic have their places.

On EH content I act like a demi-god using Draconic for energy burst, near perfect insta-kills and holds. The only issue is I need to remember that as a wizard I have a limited spell point pool, and even that only rarely comes into play.

For EE it depends on what I am running. If it is drow heavy content I run magister so I can get the boost to DC's (+3 for specialist and the +5 clicky is nice

Magister:
Intelligence (6), Unearthly Reactions (2), Necromancy Specialist (3), Piercing Spellcraft (3), Arcane Adept (1), Sigil of Energy Negation (2)
Twists: Fatesinger: Echos of the Ancestors: Magister (3), Draconic: Piercing Spellcraft (3), Shadow Dancer: Intelligence (1)

Tried out both necro and enchantment mastery, eventually decided that there are more ways to reduce will save than there are to reduce fortitude saves -- and with a 55 necro dc you do need to prep mobs (necrotic ray, energy drain, crushing dispair, etc) but it works. Personally if I could just breeze through EE content without having to prep mobs for destruction it would just be EH, and not the challenge it should be.

For non-drow I run Draconic for the extra damage potential

Draconic
Intelligence (6), Energy Sheath [fire] (2), Go out with a bang (2), Energy Burst: Cold (2), Energy Vortex: Cold (1), Dragon Heritage: Cold (2), Draconic Knowledge: Cold (2)
Twists: Fatesinger: Echos of the Ancestors: Magister (3), Magister: Necromancy Spec. (2), Shadow Dancer: Intelligence (1)

Now that they fixed the ED reset costs it is cheap to swap draconic around between the two (need to modify so you can twist in piercing) depending on the quests you plan on running.

[blerkington]

keep making excuses, we'll keep making these quests look easy.


You're such a hero. ::yawns::

Hi,

Less fighting, more kissing, I say.

Even if you don't enjoy it yourselves, think how good it would be for morale in these troubled times on the forums.

Thanks.

[Azre]

No. Necromancy Augmentation grants a 15% Chance of lowering Fort Saves by 5. It's not +10. The +3 Necro DC from Necromancy Specialist is something you obviously TWIST when you're running Draconic. So that's a wash too. The +2 Shaken from Fear is from the Fear Spell, and has nothing to do with Destinies. So that's irrelevant. You're making up these numbers.

I agree with you that for wizards, Draconic is better 90% of the time... the only exception I can think of is maybe HoX on elite, simply because mobs are too spread out to burst them.

You did overlook one thing though. An acid specced Draconic gets the same -5 fort saves from all acid spells, including somewhat persistent cheap to cast AoE (non-meta acid rain, spray, etc.). Which makes getting this debuff a lot easier than with necromancy spells.

They really need to revamp Magister.

[Faent]

I agree with you that for wizards, Draconic is better 90% of the time... the only exception I can think of is maybe HoX on elite, simply because mobs are too spread out to burst them.

When mobs are "too spread out", you round them up. Then Energy Burst them. This goes for all content.


You did overlook one thing though. An acid specced Draconic gets the same -5 fort saves from all acid spells, including somewhat persistent cheap to cast AoE (non-meta acid rain, spray, etc.). Which makes getting this debuff a lot easier than with necromancy spells.

Well, you're correct that this debuff exists. But Acid Rain isn't a great way to try to land it. What are you going to do? Kite a single mob through Acid Rain until that debuff lands? That's a really expensive way to try to land the debuff. (Remember, if it worked, PM's can land it for free.) Or, perhaps, kite a group of mobs through Acid Rain and then check them one by one to see if the debuff landed? Nope. By the time you've managed to find the mob on which the debuff landed, it'll have worn off.

I haven't tested that debuff, by the way. The Magister equivalent, which heavily favors the PM, is currently broken. I wouldn't be surprised if this is broken too. And I'm sure as heck not going to test that, since I see no plausible and efficient way of landing the debuff. (Melf's Acid Arrow every 2.5 seconds? Uh, no.) Maybe your point is that a Sorcerer can make more use of this using their Earth Savant SLA's? Perhaps. But that wasn't the point of the thread.


They really need to revamp Magister.

Yes, they do. We can agree on that. At the very least, they might fix things so that the destiny actually does what it says it will do. I'm sure it'd make PM's happy if they could finally land that Fort Save Debuff the Destiny promises but fails to deliver. I'm done playing Dungeons and Bugs Online, though. My arcane will go back to TR'ing until Turbine can clean up their house and get their ED's into working order.

[Azre]

When mobs are "too spread out", you round them up. Then Energy Burst them. This goes for all content.

Yea, what I meant is the combination of being spread out and resistant to the element of your Draconian lineage. It's usually quite expensive to redo both enhancements and your ED.




Well, you're correct that this debuff exists. But Acid Rain isn't a great way to try to land it. What are you going to do?


Keep in mind there are a lot more AoE acid spells, including the Draconic energy vortex and blast. If they survived the insane damage from holds + blast + breath, there's a high chance they were debuffed.

I don't really know if it was bugged or not, but the mobs info showed it.



My arcane will go back to TR'ing until Turbine can clean up their house and get their ED's into working order.

I tr'ed mined for similar reasons, well of course and wanted the 3x fvs and 3x clr lives too. But giving turbine some time to iron out the bugs would make for a much better high level experience.

Do I need to bring up the CR 12 lich? lol.

[HAL]

I think you are making this stuff up...

Your math is bad. You don't know what you're talking about.

Perhaps you're not aware that it is possible (and even preferable in a polite society) to argue your point without being so confrontational...

Professionals argue all the time without insulting each other. You know why? Because no one wants to talk to someone who is constantly rude. :rolleyes: