DDO needs riddles!

[eachna_gislin]

I love riddles.

They've been an integral part of nearly every pnp campaign I've played in. They show up all over the place in the old modules (possibly the new stuff too).

DDO has traps and puzzles and secret doors, which are also pnp staples. Why no riddles?

If the answer is "because people would memorize the answers", well, yes, they would. But people already memorize the layout of puzzles and the location of trap boxes and secret doors.

Riddles, please!

[madmaxhunter]

What about the Litany dragon? And Lockania to a smaller extent.

/signed though, any diversity is a good thing.

[Kalari]

Maybe one day DDO will bring tricksters and gnomes to the game then we will have riddles galore! A gal can dream :)

[Urist]

Also ADQ1

[danzig138]

I'll support riddles, only when the game supports my character making a Lore skill check to solve them. Riddles were a poor addition in the 70s, and they're a poor addition now.

[MrkGrismer]

It would be best served with a very large database of random riddles.

[AZgreentea]

It would seem that U16 are a step in that direction, with the outcome of the quest being changed depending on what NPC options you pick. Actual riddles would be fun, until you couldn't solve them. :D

[eachna_gislin]

What about the Litany dragon? And Lockania to a smaller extent.

/signed though, any diversity is a good thing.

What is the Litany dragon? (Seriously, I don't know).

Lockania isn't really riddling...she's quizzing. :)

But...that does show they have the coding in place to show text questions and choose an answer! So the engine already supports riddles.

And as for the other person who pointed out ADQ...is that the prequest part with the book? I don't really know what happens there. I've only done the quest a few times and I've been told I can't read the book (I think it reset the animal order if you do?) If that's correct, well that's nice that they put a riddle in there but it sucks that it messes up the quest for more than one person to look at it :).

Still, I have been schooled, so...uhhh...DDO needs *more* riddles :).

[madmaxhunter]

At the end of the Litany quest, a black dragon will ask you a series of questions. You will then go to fight the "boss" based on the answers you give. You must fight all four "bosses" to finish the Litany flagging, you are then flagged for the Abbot raid.

[Missing_Minds]

In one quest in LOTRO it is all based around emotes.
http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Riddles_Beneath_The_Inn

Now, DDO has NOWHERE near the amount of emotes lotro has, but multiple riddles can be made to cover the same emote.

Just something that could be done.

[zwiebelring]

More riddles like adq and Litany please. Everytime I solve a puzzle I think a dev put a green hat on my head along with some fancy long ears....

[dterror]

What is the Litany dragon? (Seriously, I don't know).

Lockania isn't really riddling...she's quizzing. :)

But...that does show they have the coding in place to show text questions and choose an answer! So the engine already supports riddles.

And as for the other person who pointed out ADQ...is that the prequest part with the book? I don't really know what happens there. I've only done the quest a few times and I've been told I can't read the book (I think it reset the animal order if you do?) If that's correct, well that's nice that they put a riddle in there but it sucks that it messes up the quest for more than one person to look at it :).

Still, I have been schooled, so...uhhh...DDO needs *more* riddles :).

The Litany dragon is faced at the end of the Litany of the Dead quest. Depending on how you answer a long series of questions, you either get an instant party wipe or you complete the quest, the floor drops out, and you continue on to one of the 4 optional bosses. Which boss is available depends on how you answered the questions.
Lawful good (Doomsphere Cholthulzz)
Lawful Evil (Vampire High Priest)
Chaotic Good (Fleshmaker Mentau)
Chaotic Evil (Cinderspawn Cinnis)

As for ADQ part 1, yes...that's the part with the book but having more than 1 person look doesn't mess it up. Sometimes the book might reset to a different pattern as people step into the quest though if someone doesn't already have the book open.

[Silverleafeon]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Litany_of_the_Dead_riddle

http://ddowiki.com/page/Against_the_Demon_Queen_riddle

http://ddowiki.com/page/Hall_of_the_Mark

http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Voyage

[Missing_Minds]

http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Voyage
That one really isn't a riddle.

[Bennum]

Maybe in the future if we get a Sphinx.

[eachna_gislin]

The Litany dragon is faced at the end of the Litany of the Dead quest. Depending on how you answer a long series of questions, you either get an instant party wipe or you complete the quest, the floor drops out, and you continue on to one of the 4 optional bosses. Which boss is available depends on how you answered the questions.
Lawful good (Doomsphere Cholthulzz)
Lawful Evil (Vampire High Priest)
Chaotic Good (Fleshmaker Mentau)
Chaotic Evil (Cinderspawn Cinnis)

As for ADQ part 1, yes...that's the part with the book but having more than 1 person look doesn't mess it up. Sometimes the book might reset to a different pattern as people step into the quest though if someone doesn't already have the book open.

Abbot, I've never done the Abbot prequest or raid...I farmed the heck out of the orchard and ran the flagging quests several times but I'm still missing several sigil parts (while having 3 or 4 of the others).

ADQ, thank you for explaining that, as I said I don't know what really happens with the book. I've always been told not to touch it. Then, someone recites a list of animals and off everyone goes.

In Prison of the Planes to flag for Tor, there's an optional to be quizzed about what it means to behave in a Lawful manner. That's exactly how I think the riddles should be handled (even though that's not a riddle contest, it's also quizzing like Lockania). Optional, not quest-breaking if you fail them, but you get a little something for succeeding.

[Silverleafeon]

That one really isn't a riddle.

Nods solemnly and ponders the riddles of character creation....

[dterror]

Abbot, I've never done the Abbot prequest or raid...I farmed the heck out of the orchard and ran the flagging quests several times but I'm still missing several sigil parts (while having 3 or 4 of the others).

ADQ, thank you for explaining that, as I said I don't know what really happens with the book. I've always been told not to touch it. Then, someone recites a list of animals and off everyone goes.

In Prison of the Planes to flag for Tor, there's an optional to be quizzed about what it means to behave in a Lawful manner. That's exactly how I think the riddles should be handled (even though that's not a riddle contest, it's also quizzing like Lockania). Optional, not quest-breaking if you fail them, but you get a little something for succeeding.

They aren't really flagging quests, just quests to gather the sigil pieces. If you gather more than 1 complete set of pieces and then TR, you don't have to do any of the Orchard quests again, you can just turn in the completed sigil right away. The only 'flagging' required for abbot is the 4 bosses in Litany. The 'riddles' at the end of Litany is pretty much exactly like the PoP Law room...just a series of questions, always the same series of questions, but different alignment weights to the answers.

As for PoP, haven't tried running it since patch 15.2, but the Law room was broken with update 14. You can answer all the questions, but the room never end.

[madmaxhunter]

As for PoP, haven't tried running it since patch 15.2, but the Law room was broken with update 14. You can answer all the questions, but the room never end.

Me either, but just to avoid confusion. You can complete the room, you just can't open the door, so you get the xp, you must have someone outside to hit the switch (you have to have someone/hireling/pet outside anyway) and you don't get the orbs. But there are more orbs than slots, so it doesn't really matter.

[dterror]

Me either, but just to avoid confusion. You can complete the room, you just can't open the door, so you get the xp, you must have someone outside to hit the switch (you have to have someone/hireling/pet outside anyway) and you don't get the orbs. But there are more orbs than slots, so it doesn't really matter.

It's also possible to 'lose' one of the 2 chests that spawn because of this bug. I've had it happen on 2 runs so far where 1 of the 2 chests was to spawn in that room, and thus we lost out on one.

So no, it doesn't really matter (except to loot *****s like me), but it is annoying.

[MrkGrismer]

As for PoP, haven't tried running it since patch 15.2, but the Law room was broken with update 14. You can answer all the questions, but the room never end.

I am pretty sure you also have to be lawful in alignment to answer the PoP one.

[Ralmeth]

/Signed. Sure, riddles sound fun to me:) I always liked riddles back in PnP.

[dterror]

I am pretty sure you also have to be lawful in alignment to answer the PoP one.

Yes, you do, but that's irrelevant because the room won't even begin to give you the 'riddles' if you aren't lawful.
Lawful aligned characters who correctly answer all the questions since update 14 though cause the exp bonus to be triggered, but the room never ends meaning no chance to get the chest if that's the room one of them is set to spawn in.
Again, no idea if that was fixed with 15.2 though

[Barazon]

If you mean riddles where you have to type in the answer to a question, this produces a few problems:


Wording: i.e. accepting "Philosopher's Stone" as input when the expected answer is "The Philosopher's Stone".
Spelling: many players can't spell rogue, or use they're/their/there correctly, let alone spell the answers to riddles. As above, how many differently spelled/worded answers will you accept?
Localization: translating riddles to other languages is more problematic than normal text, but doable. May also produce problems for players whose first language is not the language of the client they are using, since riddles may involve a play on words or concepts.


That being said, I would like something other than color-coded puzzles (I am colorblind), or the ubiquitous lights-out puzzle.

[Missing_Minds]

Nods solemnly and ponders the riddles of character creation....
In all of gaming I have done with DnD, I've never heard the DM ever ask any character "How were you built? What classes did you take at what levels?"

I've heard them ask that of players before, but not characters.

Riddle relevance denied.

[GotSomeQuestions]

There's a green hag that challenges you to a riddle contest as a rare encounter in the King's Forest. It's worth looking for.

[Qhualor]

im fine with more riddles, as long as it was multiple choice. but than again, you could just look up wiki for the answers. riddles would be something different other than puzzles and i dont feel as though there are very many quests that spring to mind. litany is one, but wiki has the answers for that. ive never dared to get those answers wrong :)

[Missing_Minds]

There's a green hag that challenges you to a riddle contest as a rare encounter in the King's Forest. It's worth looking for.

Isn't that one bugged as all getout as well?

[sirgog]

I'll support riddles, only when the game supports my character making a Lore skill check to solve them. Riddles were a poor addition in the 70s, and they're a poor addition now.

IMO this.

Why is my 8 Int melee no worse at Shroud puzzles than my 50-ish Int Pale Master?

I also do not like it at all when the whole group has to wait while a single player plays some silly minigame to determine success or failure of a quest. Worst example is probably the Reaver's Fate, though Litany is bad too.

You can tell something is a bad idea when a large majority of players use an external resource (solver program, etc) to avoid something. Litany in particular is done badly as several of the questions test one element of alignment but the questions themselves are about entirely different character traits such as courage.

[Missing_Minds]

Another way DDO could support riddles. Modify the barter box UI.

In the quest, we pick up "quest objects", which can then be put into the Barter Box.

Correct answer "given", advance the quest.
Wrong answer given, and some detriment happens.


"Lore" stuff is starting to be implemented a bit more, such as in the Cultists alters with lords of dust.

Previous to that, you could expect a "turn undead" at the fountain in "And the dead shall rise..." to purify it. That was a riddle there. How to purify it.

[Cardoor]

...

I also do not like it at all when the whole group has to wait while a single player plays some silly minigame to determine success or failure of a quest. Worst example is probably the Reaver's Fate, though Litany is bad too.


There is an easy riddle in the Underdark Arena Challenges. What I like about it, is that most of the group can participate. If they do a more complicated riddle, something with group interaction would be good.

Finding a balance between having to wait for lever pullers with the right stats in VON 5 and something too easy like the Underdark arena wizard would be my preference (not too time consuming and not too easy).

[Dielzen]

Yes, you do, but that's irrelevant because the room won't even begin to give you the 'riddles' if you aren't lawful.
Lawful aligned characters who correctly answer all the questions since update 14 though cause the exp bonus to be triggered, but the room never ends meaning no chance to get the chest if that's the room one of them is set to spawn in.
Again, no idea if that was fixed with 15.2 though


It's also possible to 'lose' one of the 2 chests that spawn because of this bug. I've had it happen on 2 runs so far where 1 of the 2 chests was to spawn in that room, and thus we lost out on one.

So no, it doesn't really matter (except to loot *****s like me), but it is annoying.
There's a chest in the Law room?

[Missing_Minds]

There's a chest in the Law room?

There never has in the years I've run it. So maybe there is another bug related to the chests also.

[porq]

I can't believe no one has mentioned the Crucible's Test of Instinct yet.

That one was a doozy to figure out without spoilers

[bigolbear]

If the orien lighting rail leaves sharn at 3pm and a warforge weighing 800lbs fails a teleport from the moving train as it crosses the boarder of khorvaire 1:how many halflings will be squished on the market place bridge, 2:how much will the coinlords increase taxes, 3:how much damage will the warforge take.

[Chaos000]

I would only be in favor of this if there were an option to bypass the riddle. Don't want to deny anyone the enjoyment of more riddles but it would save me the time looking up the solution online if it wasn't mandatory.

[Tooky]

In one quest in LOTRO it is all based around emotes.
http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Riddles_Beneath_The_Inn

Now, DDO has NOWHERE near the amount of emotes lotro has, but multiple riddles can be made to cover the same emote.

Just something that could be done.

There's a guy on Korthos that sits down again if you /bow to him.

Not a riddle, but creative use of an emote. Quite pointless, but a bit of variety (before dicing, liquidising or cremating as usual and then moving on).

[zwiebelring]

IMO this.

Why is my 8 Int melee no worse at Shroud puzzles than my 50-ish Int Pale Master?

I also do not like it at all when the whole group has to wait while a single player plays some silly minigame to determine success or failure of a quest. Worst example is probably the Reaver's Fate, though Litany is bad too.

You can tell something is a bad idea when a large majority of players use an external resource (solver program, etc) to avoid something. Litany in particular is done badly as several of the questions test one element of alignment but the questions themselves are about entirely different character traits such as courage.
This is a permanent issue in DnD.

If actions resolve in die rolls why won't riddles do that? But since puzzles are used with same external resources as riddles both can be used. And personally, I like riddles, they improve my fantasy experience. I don't care whether I have to solve them myself or roll a die. I just want to have them and no stupid puzzle tiles outside of a context. Most puzzles don't make any sense to me. I think they are very well placed in The Sane Asylum, VoN5 and Titan raid, but that's it.

Consistent barriers would resolve sometimes in puzzles, sometimes in riddles, sometimes in traps. But not just traps AND puzzles.

[bartharok]

The problem with that suggestion is that it would force people to think, which they wont like.

[SlogUK]

They've actually cut a riddle from the game. Before they reworked some of the harbour quests into Korthos, in the one where you have to stop some guy and his pet Warforged from getting ganked by fish people. The end of that quest was a riddle, where you pulled the right valve to complete. It never changed, which made it very fast to farm, and testament to the fact that people just ignore the riddle and learn the right lever, I can't remember what it was. I think that it was based on elements, and colours above the levers, and the red one was fire and that was the answer.

Litany is sneaky, as the answers move around so you have to learn how it thinks,.or refer to a chart. That's quite cool. I still occasionally find myself running with someone who cooks the party. Even though I know it now I still get tense, especially when trying to remember the alignment of the various dragons.

[sirgog]

One change to what I've said so far:

I'm all in favor of riddles/puzzles that are an alternative to a fight, as long as there's no clear 'path of least resistance' that is much easier.

As an example, Cabal for One (ok that's traps instead of a puzzle but you get the idea) - you can choose a harder boss fight or you can choose to have lots of traps. Below elite, neither option is clearly 'harder' or 'easier'. People do what they prefer in there. (Mostly people run the harder boss way because on elite that is the clear path of least resistance but on other difficulties the balance is right).

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

The Korthos quest also has 2 ways : One way with Sauhagin, one way with poison.
You choose.

Riddles, I fear, won't be liked much by hack & slay players. As soon as the amount of riddles increases, we'll see rant thrads here, I bet. "Oh those stupid riddles !!!11!!111" and so on. Zergers won't like that, too.

And I still want proper social interaction checks.

[Cardoor]

... The end of that quest was a riddle, where you pulled the right valve to complete. It never changed, which made it very fast to farm, and testament to the fact that people just ignore the riddle and learn the right lever...

There is an antidote to that, as the example below illustrates:

Bridgekeeper: "Who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see."
Lancelot: - Ask me the questions, bridgekeeper. I am not afraid.
"What... is your name?"
- My name is 'Sir Lancelot of Camelot'.
"What... is your quest?"
- To seek the Holy Grail.
"What... is your favourite colour?"
- Blue.
"Right. Off you go."

AND now for something completely different...

"What... is your name?"
- 'Sir Robin of Camelot'.
"What... is your quest?"
- To seek the Holy Grail.
"What... is the capital of Assyria?"
- I don't know that! Arrrrrgggghhhh!